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[00:29:53] <CaptHindsight> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kitamura-Cnc-vertical-mill-mycenter1-/231058353474?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35cc26ad42
[00:31:08] <uw> "Missora"
[00:31:26] <CaptHindsight> http://www.ebay.com/itm/MORI-SEIKI-MV-JUNIOR-22-X-16-Y-18-Z-1987-7-5-HP-10-000-RPM-CAT-40-FAN-/121112053054?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c32d7453e
[00:31:41] <CaptHindsight> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mori-Seiki-NT-4250DCG-1500SZ-bidding-on-deposit-make-us-an-offer-/300745974212?pt=BI_Lathes&hash=item4605db61c4
[00:32:14] <CaptHindsight> "This Mori Seiki had minor damage which we fixed a small part broke of when rigger try to lift it up with the forklift to move it a few inches. Buyer wanted an other Mori Seiki."
[00:33:05] <CaptHindsight> oh wait a sec " bidding on deposit make us an offer"
[00:34:40] <uw> 56k lbs
[00:34:51] <CaptHindsight> what next a bid on a partial payment with the possibility of making an offer sometime in the future
[00:34:53] <uw> have fun moving that into your basement
[00:35:31] <CaptHindsight> if you can get it through your front door gravity should do the rest :)
[00:35:55] <uw> or above the roof somehow
[00:38:21] <uw> "The balance of $ 695,000 is due at end of 14 day inspection period"
[00:41:33] <CaptHindsight> the low price gets people to look and it might be a way to get around ebay's commission on the sale
[00:44:56] <uw> yea it looks like a circumvent for the fees
[00:45:11] <uw> i'm gonna report these clowns
[00:45:15] <CaptHindsight> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/117421627/the-peachy-printer-the-first-100-3d-printer-and-sc
[00:45:32] <uw> for cluttering up the $5k searches
[00:45:43] <CaptHindsight> $385,086 with 25 days to go
[00:48:52] <uw> idk i guess people are impressed with the sample pieces?
[00:49:04] <uw> looks like it was made on a $100 machine...
[00:49:06] <uw> oh wait
[00:51:46] <CaptHindsight> I didn't they could make a SLA printer worse than a glue gun, but i was proved wrong
[04:45:46] <archivist_herron> big one 200954563720
[04:48:18] <Loetmichel> nice one... but a bit expensive
[10:03:51] <false8> Hey guys
[10:04:01] <kengu> hello
[10:04:41] <false8> pcw_home: If you're in, thanks for the custom bitfile, it's working like a charm!
[10:09:08] <pcw_home> Welcome!, thats just about at the limits of what will fit in a 5I20 however
[10:16:08] <false8> Well, for the next project I was planning to buy a bigger card anyway, do you know the estimated transit time of products to the netherlands?
[10:20:11] <pcw_home> You can choose the shipment method, fastest (and most expensive ) is a few days
[10:20:48] <false8> ok good to know
[10:22:16] <false8> bdw, on my 7i64 inputs the red leds are glowing very very dim, when not active. This would mean a ground loop if I'm not mistaking, but I can't for the life of me find it, could anything else cause this?
[10:23:05] <false8> the cables are all shielded of course.
[11:03:20] <jthornton> false8, shielded on one end only?
[11:03:32] <jthornton> grounded on one end only?
[11:07:39] <pcw_home> on the 7I64 the red LEDs are reverse inout indicators so you have a negative input voltage >2V
[11:07:40] <pcw_home> or AC
[11:07:46] <pcw_home> input
[11:08:09] <ChristianS> hi, i have a reprap 3d printer but are currently research other open source CNC machine for a talk i'll give
[11:08:53] <ChristianS> any popular open source rounters/mills i should mention, besides the shapeoko?
[11:10:48] <CaptHindsight> ChristianS: why are you focusing on a single CNC machine vs the concept that Linuxcnc supports many types of CNC machines?
[11:12:15] <ChristianS> CaptHindsight: will mention the software but i'm looking for open-source hardware
[11:12:19] <CaptHindsight> Linuxcnc allows you to control just about any type of CNC machine
[11:12:47] <ChristianS> CaptHindsight: were the full blueprints/designs of the machine and free/open too, as with shapeoko, reprap, arduino etc.
[11:13:35] <JT-Shop> Gingerly
[11:13:35] <cpresser> ChristianS: linuxcnc is just the software. you will have to do the hardware yourself
[11:14:04] <cpresser> ChristianS: but there are some free mill-designs out there. see google/kickstarter/...
[11:14:44] <false8> I'm thinking AC, because reversing the input wiring gives the same result.
[11:14:46] <ChristianS> cpresser: ok, just thought some people here might be using such machines
[11:14:55] <ChristianS> or is there another channel were i could ask?
[11:15:33] <cpresser> ChristianS: i am not aware of any people or a channel for that topic. most people in here use retrofitted machines
[11:15:57] <pcw_home> all 7I64 inputs are floating so each input +- pair needs to be terminaled
[11:15:59] <CaptHindsight> ChristianS: there are but many people here treat machine design the way you might look at a box of crayons
[11:16:26] <CaptHindsight> box of crayons and blank paper vs crayons and a coloring book
[11:16:37] <pcw_home> Is the control logic 24VAC?
[11:17:14] <ChristianS> CaptHindsight: hmm, any coloring instructions anywhere? ;)
[11:17:20] <false8> Yes, wired like this: +24vdc->switch(no)->7i64+->7i64- -> com
[11:17:31] <false8> nope, dc
[11:18:23] <CaptHindsight> ChristianS: search the crowdfunding sites and cnczone etc
[11:18:38] <cpresser> ChristianS: there are projects like this out:
http://diylilcnc.org/
[11:18:49] <cpresser> ChristianS: you will find a handful of similar ones
[11:19:06] <false8> It only occurs when the drives are enabled with a motor connected. So probably noise, but I'm using a star point distribution and all cables are shielded, except for the servo leads.
[11:21:10] <pcw_home> Thats a lot of noise to turn on the reverse protection LEDs...
[11:21:30] <false8> Putting a isolated screwdriver on the + input gives the same dim led response, so acting as an antenna right? But connecting the input to the switch lead with the switch disconnected, the led stays off??
[11:21:30] <ChristianS> cpresser: diylilcnc is a good tip, thanks
[11:22:40] <cpresser> ChristianS: you should include the retrofit-option in your talk :)
[11:23:53] <archivist_> ChristianS, I can show fugly homebrew machine, no "design" involved (5 axis cnc mill)
[11:25:11] <pcw_home> If the switch leads are shielded/twisted I might expect this
[11:25:13] <pcw_home> especially if theres a _lot_ of noise around
[11:27:25] <JT-Shop> 5 more days of slow internet
[11:30:06] <cradek> did you find the cause?
[11:36:33] <archivist_> I deeply suspect junk on websites to be sucking bandwidth
[11:37:41] <cradek> yeah that's likely (especially flash garbage)
[11:38:27] <archivist_> and the web collect all your data, and the send video adverts
[11:38:34] <archivist_> web2
[11:38:46] <cradek> it'd sure be easy for me to find, but my nat and firewall are a computer, not a black box
[11:39:21] <archivist_> I just came home and had to kill -9 firefox to get out of swap
[11:39:38] <JT-Shop> I think it was the eye pad
[11:39:48] <cradek> yeah "exit your browser when you're not using it" is good advice
[11:39:54] <archivist_> stab it in the eye
[11:40:03] <cradek> what was it doing? something you asked for, or didn't ask for?
[11:40:18] <jmasseo> certain websites will cause your browser to leak violently.
[11:40:24] <JT-Shop> I think it was syncing icloud or something like that
[11:40:40] <archivist_> last thing I did was on the BBC web site and look at the watchmaking vid
[11:40:54] <false8> pcw_home: Scope to the + input leads gives about 4V p-p, scope to the PE gives about the same.
[11:41:00] <archivist_> cradek, you should see that
[11:41:15] <cradek> is that a special way of saying it sends a copy of all your data to apple?
[11:41:24] <cradek> archivist_: url?
[11:41:27] <JT-Shop> yea all your photos
[11:41:43] <JT-Shop> I turned off wifi on all the eye devices
[11:41:46] <cradek> lovely
[11:41:53] <archivist_> I have to restart firefox !...may take some time
[11:42:13] <JT-Shop> I've been turning off everything except the IRC when I'm not using it
[11:43:38] <archivist_> cradek the search term on the news site is "the man who makes £100000 watches"
[11:43:40] <false8> earth fault?
[11:44:29] <cradek> bbc.co.uk?
[11:44:55] <archivist_> cradek, www.bbc.co.uk/news
[11:45:16] <cradek> aha,
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-24211691
[11:45:36] <archivist_> the old guy is George Daniels
[11:45:45] <archivist_> the late
[11:45:53] <cradek> oh that's wonderful, someone is following him
[11:46:09] <cradek> I've read his big book many times
[11:46:18] <archivist_> he handed a certificate to me :)
[11:46:27] <archivist_> I have the book
[11:49:02] <archivist_> hmm firefox running at 104% and still not showing anything yet
[11:51:03] <JT-Shop> on this windoze computer I have a meter that's been running for a couple of weeks and it has only up/down loaded 0.379GB
[11:51:20] <cradek> archivist_: and someone so young, yay :-)
[11:51:44] <archivist_> yes young and keen
[12:10:23] <IchGuckLive> hi all B)
[12:31:54] <jthornton> hi
[12:32:58] <IchGuckLive> B)
[12:38:47] <DJ9DJ> nabemd
[12:39:08] <IchGuckLive> B)
[12:39:12] <DJ9DJ> namd ;)
[12:39:15] <DJ9DJ> hi live-gucker
[12:39:28] <IchGuckLive> oktoberfest beer beer und die schiederin
[12:40:36] <IchGuckLive> http://www.muenchen.tv/munchen-tv-livestream/#.UkMcftdhNe8
[13:01:49] <pcw_home> http://www.templeofcats.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/cat-car.jpg
[13:05:47] <archivist_> what has been seen cannot be unseen
[13:25:15] <IchGuckLive> im off by
[13:43:27] <ReadError> off by what?
[13:43:31] <ReadError> (never gets old)
[13:46:48] <DJ9DJ> offline ;-)
[13:47:45] <CaptHindsight> Lunchin in München
[13:49:18] <DJ9DJ> you mean drinking beer until he cannot stand any more
[13:49:27] <DJ9DJ> ;-)
[14:21:17] <JT-Shop> anyone want to test the mill G code generator?
[14:21:47] <JT-Shop> I'm getting close to finishing it
http://gnipsel.com/shop/files/mill.zip
[15:48:49] <DJ9DJ> gn8
[15:56:36] <JT-Shop> night
[15:57:01] <kengu> good evening
[15:57:35] <JT-Shop> I'm getting close to finishing it
http://gnipsel.com/shop/files/mill.zip
[15:57:50] <joebog> morning all, If I invert the y channel , wont that change my datum point ?
[15:58:00] <joebog> from rear left to front left ??
[16:00:45] <joebog> mornin skunk
[16:06:16] <jdh> try it and find out
[16:06:25] <jdh> mine is front left
[16:06:52] <joebog> OK I will
[16:07:02] <jdh> some people like back since the fixed jaw of a vise is in the back.
[16:07:27] <joebog> thats the opposite from the origional english setup AND the Cipher windows setup ??
[16:07:35] <jdh> but, I am not a machinist.
[16:07:55] <joebog> nor am I :D
[16:08:05] <jdh> is the original setup relevant for anything?
[16:08:07] <joebog> Im a pretty poor engineer heh heh heh
[16:08:13] <joebog> BUT rapidly learning
[16:08:24] <joebog> no it isnt relevant
[16:08:39] <joebog> its just that its changed my thinking
[16:09:28] <jdh> change is good!
[16:09:33] <jdh> here, have some hope, and change.
[16:09:40] <joebog> heh heh I suppose so
[16:10:05] <joebog> I had to change some settings in the config to make it work
[16:10:22] <jdh> that's why it is a config instead of compiled in.
[16:10:35] <andypugh> Odd email " Keith Fenner added you on Google+"
[16:10:58] <joebog> I have a second question, the z axis still seems to "gain" down movement, by that I mean it doesnt seem to go back to what I set as the home point
[16:11:03] <joebog> does that make sense ?
[16:11:09] <jdh> is the head heavy?
[16:11:14] <JT-Shop> joebog: lathe or mill?
[16:11:32] <JT-Shop> nevermind
[16:11:41] <andypugh> joebog: Which stepper drivers are you using now?
[16:11:44] <joebog> npe no real "weight" at all
[16:11:55] <joebog> head is driven by worm and ball
[16:12:05] <joebog> chuck is 3/8" collet chuck
[16:12:49] <joebog> the same ones andy, I have no idea what they are, as all labels and makers plates have been removed
[16:13:26] <joebog> BUT the x and y axis now work perfectly
[16:13:38] <joebog> apart from the need to invert y axis
[16:13:44] <andypugh> The same ones as were fitted by Cipher, or the other ones?
[16:14:28] <joebog> Cipher ones I "think" the guy has clammed up since Im not going to spend $7500 of 5 fonts software
[16:14:54] <joebog> I can see the glue where the name plates were removed
[16:15:25] <joebog> they are mounted using " universal mounting plates" same as I see on eblech
[16:17:43] <joebog> er hmm I just reread yourquestion, sorry, the stepper drivers are cipher of 408
[16:18:03] <joebog> I still use the breakout board I bought as my interface though
[16:19:11] <joebog> IM408
[16:23:35] <andypugh> I would try putting the Y driver on the Z axis and seeing what you get. (purely as a wiring change)
[16:25:12] <joebog> I can do that, you suspect motor maybe ??
[16:25:18] <joebog> or a driver board ?
[16:25:28] <andypugh> Could be either.
[16:25:43] <andypugh> Though inverting the step pulses in stepconf is also worth a try.
[16:26:11] <joebog> can you run that by me ? please , how to invert ?
[16:26:25] <joebog> is it just add a minus to the direction ?
[16:27:03] <joebog> perhaps I should explain what Ive done now
[16:27:22] <JT-Shop> joebog:
http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/html/config/stepconf.html#_parallel_port_setup_a_id_sec_parallel_port_setup_a
[16:27:32] <JT-Shop> see the Invert check box?
[16:27:42] <andypugh> No, there is a tick box next to each pin on the parport setup page that lets you invert the pin. You might find you get better results with 0-for-step. (you can also use that to invert the direction pin to swap directions)
[16:28:21] <joebog> I have set my "zero" half way between the two end stops so that cutters of different legths can be accomodated
[16:28:33] <joebog> OK sorrry about that
[16:28:42] <joebog> Im home and not looking at the machine
[16:29:02] <joebog> as soon as I saw the link page I twigged
[16:29:50] <andypugh> There is no need to do that, though you can, of course. You almost never work in "machine" coordinates but in offset work coordinates (typically with Z=0 at the top of the work)
[16:30:46] <joebog> OK, although I still think I have done something wrong, as the z axis always ends up jammed into the bottom stop
[16:31:13] <joebog> I havent connected limit switches yet
[16:31:30] <tjtr33> verb Brit.informal past tense: twigged; past participle: twigged 1. understand or realize something. :)
[16:32:03] <JT-Shop> joebog: some more good reading
http://gnipsel.com/linuxcnc/g-code/index.html
[16:32:07] <joebog> :) thanks for that tjr
[16:32:46] <tjtr33> trying to keep up ( Thai & Mandarin aren't enuf, OZ is tricky :)
[16:33:03] <joebog> thganks JT, I have been reading alla the stuff, BUT you have thousands of pages
[16:33:40] <joebog> strewth tjr hold the pony
[16:34:02] <tjtr33> really, try swapping the drives. if same, suspect you _loose_ steps going up and a counterbalance may help ( quik rig up a weight and pulley )
[16:34:12] <tjtr33> good on ya'
[16:35:16] <tjtr33> if different, suspect amp or motor or couplings ...
[16:35:19] <JT-Shop> the best page is Start Here!
[16:35:32] <joebog> I will try swapping drives !!!but no easy way to hang counter balance on, Ill post more pics so you will understand that will happen tomorrow
[16:36:05] <joebog> have done exactly that JT, but its a steep learning curve and Im slow :D
[16:36:26] <JT-Shop> you will get there
[16:36:39] <JT-Shop> have you seen the stepper test?
[16:36:59] <joebog> on config pages ?
[16:37:00] <JT-Shop> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/html/common/Stepper_Diagnostics.html#_testing
[16:37:22] <JT-Shop> no, a little G code to test an axis for missing steps
[16:37:49] <joebog> I see it
[16:37:50] * JT-Shop heads out now
[16:38:02] <joebog> thats exactly what I have been looking for
[16:38:08] <JT-Shop> there you go
[16:38:15] <joebog> thanks again JT
[17:47:41] <Nick001-shop> is pyvcp an addon for linuxcnc ?
[17:57:11] <andypugh> No, it's a built-in
[17:58:12] <archivist_> CaptHindsight, not a glue gun
http://reprap.org/wiki/MetalicaRap
[17:59:04] <andypugh> archivist_: Any idea how globoidal worms work?
[18:00:10] <andypugh> It seems to me that as the radius of the worm incrreases towards the ends, so the curvature no longer fits the wheel.
[18:00:50] <andypugh> But maybe the tooth shape is somehow compensated.
[18:01:25] <andypugh> I am trying to 3D-model a globoidal ball-worm, and it turns out to be harder than it looks.
[18:02:25] <archivist_> there is a solidworks tutorial to draw one
[18:02:55] <archivist_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q20qSj_QUOM
[18:04:59] <andypugh> That is, however, completely wrong :-)
[18:05:13] <andypugh> http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCsQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sorging.ro%2Fen%2Fmember%2FserveFile%2Fformat%2Fpdf%2Fslug%2Fgloboid-worm-hob&ei=xGdDUoCcHcXa0QWh24CADg&usg=AFQjCNG7Pev-boQKb9VlCtGt83_I31PEtw&sig2=sp3dyFgMfSeKZan8nX2AvA&bvm=bv.53217764,d.d2k
[18:05:18] <andypugh> Is closer
[18:08:23] <andypugh> I suspect it might be easier to make than model...
[18:09:05] <archivist_> mebe
[18:10:12] <archivist_> that bit of a paper has a fiddle to spread wear that looks interesting
[18:11:09] <andypugh> I suspect that the trick is to make a hob and let the wheel sort itself out.
[18:12:47] <archivist_> the "make a hob bit" is a clue also to make a worm I think
[18:13:37] <archivist_> needs a "lathe" with a rotating tool post
[18:15:17] <andypugh> Indeed. I am thinking hob-to-be in the horizontal spindle of the milling machine with the cuttter on the A axis with a form too.
[18:15:20] <andypugh> (l)
[18:16:56] <andypugh> That will only generate the correct form on the central plane, but looking at pictures I think that the wheel gaps end up spread anyway.
[18:17:41] <archivist_> but, considering I have measured worm and wheel accuracy using optical techniques...there be dragons
[18:17:45] <andypugh> (I was awake all night last night thinking round this puzzle)
[18:18:09] <Nick001-shop> does pyvcp need to be started and is it in 2.5.1?
[18:18:34] <andypugh> It has been in all versions since at least 2.3
[18:18:56] <archivist_> you probably have to start reading some manual/ code/wiki to use it
[18:19:35] <andypugh> archivist_: I assume you have seen
http://urobotics.urology.jhu.edu/projects/BW/ ? (and wondered why a Urology dept would want one?)
[18:20:16] <andypugh> Nick001-shop: Have you read:
http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/html/hal/pyvcp.html
[18:20:34] <Nick001-shop> I'll have to check further to see what I did wrong - trying to get a spindle speed box working now that single point threading is working
[18:22:40] <archivist_> andypugh, seen that page in the past when looking at ball worm drive
[18:23:14] <CaptHindsight> archivist_: yes, it's the cost and complexity that holds it back from DIY and patents from commercial applications
[18:23:22] <andypugh> It looks interesting, but ideally you would want an enveloping worm, I think.
[18:23:48] <archivist_> the thing that got me in testing some rotaries is when a new too tales load, there is a step in the output angle
[18:24:11] <archivist_> new tooth takes
[18:24:55] <archivist_> this is why telescope makers use very high reduction ratios
[18:25:00] <CaptHindsight> archivist_: molds from sand and also lost wax types may be printed very rapidly for casting metals
[18:27:01] <andypugh> archivist_: Interesting globoidal cam here:
http://blog.cnccookbook.com/2013/04/13/cnc-4th-axis-basics-how-they-work/
[18:28:15] <andypugh> I am struggling to see any advantages in those designs.
[18:28:42] <archivist_> speed
[18:29:10] <andypugh> They don't seem inherently low-backlash
[18:29:11] <archivist_> and one can calibrate out the error as a tool indexer
[18:29:48] <CaptHindsight> archivist_: there's lots of 3d printer tech that is just sitting on the shelf and ignored so that other high margin tech stays alive
[18:29:57] <archivist_> one of those "use the right tool for the job" problems
[18:29:58] <tjtr33> The Machines of Leonardo Da Vinci and Franz Reuleaux: Kinematics of Machines ... discusses enveloping worms and refers to a cad model available and to 2 phys models in Voigts collection on page 318
[18:30:26] <tjtr33> do you want a worm with a lot of contact for torque?
[18:31:15] <archivist_> for a machining table you have torque, backlash and accuracy needs
[18:32:00] <CaptHindsight> andypugh: yes, I don't see lower backlash just higher contact area
[18:32:12] <archivist_> as a gear maker, the accuracy matters most
[18:33:17] <andypugh> When I make gears I only cut the right number of teeth about half the time. :-)
[18:33:22] <tjtr33> maybe more contact area averages error or reduces effect of individual/small are errors
[18:33:31] <tjtr33> area
[18:33:37] <andypugh> Interesting:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duplex_worm
[18:33:45] <CaptHindsight> with higher contact area you might get lower backlash since you spread the errors over that larger area
[18:34:17] <archivist_> tjtr33, that does not seem to be shown in my measurements of rotary tables
[18:37:17] <archivist_> any form error of the worm or gear will give a new tooth pickup step change in output angle, one can minimise with large reduction though
[18:37:30] <CaptHindsight> http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Newport-DC-Motor-Drive-for-RV240CC-240mm-Rotation-Stage-/00/s/NTY5WDc1MA==/z/4vUAAOxyu~lSQN8k/$T2eC16V,!%29MFIb%28%29B!twBSQN8kq4Gw~~60_3.JPG
[18:38:10] <CaptHindsight> ^^ these worm gears get <0.001 deg repeatability on their rotational stages
[18:38:26] <archivist_> I want to try a harmonic drive one day
[18:38:42] <archivist_> repeatability is not accuracy
[18:39:39] <CaptHindsight> absolute accuracy 0.005 deg
[18:40:05] <tjtr33> encoder on the worm?\
[18:40:55] <archivist_> tjtr33, no because you lose the accuracy between worm and wheel
[18:41:39] <archivist_> one has to manufacture with accuracy in mind at the outset
[18:41:41] <tjtr33> we had 2 mfctrs claim .001deg accuracy. 3R had encoder on worm, Hirschmann used Heidenhain thru hole on axis itself ( and 6" dia bearings ) Hman won.
[18:42:15] <archivist_> and cost?
[18:42:25] <CaptHindsight> the highest accuracy models have the encoder attached to the moving platen
[18:42:32] <CaptHindsight> http://search.newport.com/?q=*&x2=sku&q2=RV120HAT
[18:42:47] <tjtr33> hehe the 3R ran 35K , surpringly the Hman was cheaper ( no price comes to mind )
[18:43:12] <CaptHindsight> ^^ that stage is $9000
[18:43:17] <andypugh> http://www.renishaw.com/en/resolute-absolute-optical-linear-and-absolute-optical-rotary-angle-encoder-system--10852 looks ideal for that
[18:43:53] <CaptHindsight> I've been reworking them to see what we can get out of them
[18:44:59] <archivist_> andypugh, I got stuck on the Renishaw stand a couple of years ago being shown that ... it is rather nice
[18:45:26] <tjtr33> http://www.hirschmannusa.com/english/cachsenov.htm
[18:45:26] <andypugh> I wonder if they will lend me one to test BiSS with?
[18:45:57] <archivist_> you just care about torque and backlash let the measuring fix accuracy
[18:46:24] <tjtr33> agreed
[18:46:36] <CaptHindsight> tjtr33: what price range are the Hirshmann units in?
[18:46:57] <tjtr33> dunno, i can find out if you like
[18:47:12] <tjtr33> guesstimate 15k
[18:47:15] <archivist_> tjtr33, you were quoting resolution not accuracy :) if you read that chart
[18:47:17] <CaptHindsight> it's ok, I can check
[18:48:15] <tjtr33> archivist we had to have a laser inspection proove they were +/- .002 deg, so true they claim .001 rez
[18:48:38] <tjtr33> ^^^ 3R ( system 3R sweden )
[18:49:15] <tjtr33> CaptHindsight, Pete Knowles pres Hman USA Arl Hts
[18:49:19] <CaptHindsight> I'm working on a lower cost laser system to build into machines for self calibration
[18:49:37] <CaptHindsight> tjtr33: yeah, I talked to him before
[18:50:14] <CaptHindsight> I got pricing on those already
[18:50:24] <CaptHindsight> been so busy i forgot :)
[18:50:56] <tjtr33> then let ME know, i get mine from Taiwan installed in taiwan & shipped to USA
[18:51:11] <CaptHindsight> they were nice but had long lead times. I think they are all pretty much built to order
[18:51:33] <tjtr33> try MMK ( matsumura )
[18:53:12] <CaptHindsight> http://www.mmkmatsumoto.com/rotary-tables/
[18:54:13] <CaptHindsight> I always outside their target application
[18:54:29] <tjtr33> they have a line that they tear apart and hand work, claiming very high precision
[18:54:56] <CaptHindsight> I don't have any cutting tool contact
[18:55:00] <tjtr33> i used some made into SS for submerging in DI water
[18:55:17] <CaptHindsight> it's closer to EDM but the parts are typically lighter
[18:55:19] <tjtr33> for EDM ( non contact)
[18:55:39] <tjtr33> Sam Noguchi pres US ops
[18:55:47] <tjtr33> maybe Naguchi
[18:56:22] <CaptHindsight> we talked about these early in the summer
[18:56:27] <tjtr33> yep
[18:56:43] <tjtr33> back to remodelling bye
[18:56:46] <andypugh> Polytec make some amazing kit. 24Mhz bandwidth and sub nanometer distance resolution.
http://www.polytec-ltd.co.uk/uk/
[18:57:50] <uw> S to the PAM
[18:58:51] <Nick001-shop> andy - thanks for the info - I think I'm missing the hal pin. I'll work on it after the Hardinge is done with it's current work.
[18:59:34] <CaptHindsight> lots of patents on laser scanners for measurement as well
[19:00:12] <andypugh> I downloaded the Autodesk 3D scanning iPhone app, but apparently it id borked with iOS7...
[19:00:27] <CaptHindsight> I've found that lots of problems have been solved for years but the current patent system keeps them off the market
[19:02:19] <CaptHindsight> make me think of that last scene from Raiders of the Lost Ark in the warehouse
[19:02:51] <CaptHindsight> just safely kept locked up
[19:03:38] <CaptHindsight> http://www.3ders.org/articles/20130925-how-to-use-3d-printing-in-lost-wax-casting-of-custom-lugs-for-a-bicycle-frame.html
[19:04:58] <CaptHindsight> The plastic moulds may be printed very fast
[19:33:36] <jp_mill> ye haw. got the mill all wired up and running. just a few things to clean up.
[19:35:34] <jp_mill> just need to figure out how to stop an axis from accelerating when using an MPG any ideas?
[19:36:11] <andypugh> "Kim-Niklas Antin in Finland, founder of the organisation and self-confessed bike enthusiast" That's pretty Finnish, admitting, when pressed, to quite like bicycles.
[19:37:46] <andypugh> And those lugs need to taper down to nothing in a stylish way :-)
[19:39:15] <jp_mill> andypugh: any ideas on how to get an axis to stop moving when some one rapidly winds on it and then lets go?
[19:41:33] <jp_mill> most traditional controls behave like that but right now if i have my mpg set to .100 increment and give it 3 quick turns it will move the axis = the 3 full turns regardless if its not turning
[19:42:54] <andypugh> Today was the open day at the RPD section at work. They have some nice toys. My favourite is the sand mould printing machine, that can cast cylinder heads from a CAD model.
[19:43:21] <andypugh> jp_mill: That's what you asked for...
[19:43:50] <andypugh> An MPG is _meant_ to move exactly as far as asked.
[19:45:10] <andypugh> It is possible to configure it for velocity-mode jogging, but I think you will find that to be equally unacceptable at low speeds.
[19:45:32] <jp_mill> i understand that but that behaviour is not typical of a traditional control. i've worked on controls where as soon as the mpg stops rotating so does the axis regardles of input counts
[19:46:06] <andypugh> That would be a HAL change, instead of wiring eoncoder position to wheel-counts, wire encoder-velocity to jog-speed.
[19:46:30] <jp_mill> i'll try that
[19:48:50] <andypugh> Problem 1: When is it stopped rather than moving slowly? (this is probably handled by the encoder timeout parameter I think I have seen). You can maybe wire the jog-enable pin via a speed detector in HAL. That ought to work.
[19:56:09] <jp_mill> Hmm wont work a slow rotation velocity stays a zero
[20:01:07] <andypugh> Yeah, thought it might.
[20:01:24] <jp_mill> yeah tried to lower the timeout but no dice
[20:01:31] <andypugh> I _think_ that the minimum velocity is a hal param
[20:01:44] <jp_mill> oh well will just have to deal with it
[20:02:57] <andypugh> There will be a way to get what you want in HAL. (you can do almost anything in HAL)
[20:04:12] <andypugh> ddt on counts (or probably position, to be a float) into a oneshot that disables the jog-enable via an and2. Or something like that.
[20:04:17] <jp_mill> true just how bad do i need it
[20:04:55] <jp_mill> is oneshot a function in hal?
[20:05:06] <andypugh> You can franticallt wind backwards when you see you have over-done it. That works :-) (don't ask me how I know)
[20:05:24] <andypugh> Yes, oneshot is a HAL function)
[20:06:00] <jp_mill> lol yeah i now that one works too (Dont ask that cutter how i know)
[20:09:09] <andypugh> Not directly related but:
http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/html/man/man9/ilowpass.9.html can make a jogwheel a lot nicer.
[20:09:11] <jp_mill> is there a grey decode function in hal?
[20:11:07] <andypugh> yes, and no on the Gray code. The serial encoder module I pushed to master last week can handle gray-code. But there is no standalone component.
[20:11:25] <andypugh> it would be largely trivial to make one.
[20:11:52] <andypugh> I think it would be a 15-line .comp file
[20:12:08] <jp_mill> yeah i guess i should learn how to do that one day
[20:12:31] <andypugh> How badly do you want it?
[20:12:46] <andypugh> I was going to sleep :-)
[20:13:20] <jp_mill> just for my axis selector i should figure out first if it's grey or binary
[20:14:13] <jp_mill> havent looked at it yet but it came of a Japanese mill most of the i thought were grey code
[20:17:27] <jp_mill> although that may not matter considering its only 4 positions
[20:17:40] <uw> whats cheapest place to ge tballscrews
[20:17:50] <jp_mill> china
[20:18:27] <uw> flying to china, getting ball screws and returning isn't the cheapest place
[20:20:02] <andypugh> Zapp are pretty cheap. But in the UK.
[20:20:24] <uw> Zapp eh?
[20:20:49] <andypugh> Much Cheapness:
http://www.zappautomation.co.uk/en/63-chinese-brand-ballnuts
[20:21:17] <andypugh> They do have more expensive ranges.
[20:22:39] <andypugh> But £25 for a 16mm ballnut + £4 per 100mm of screw is pretty cheap.
[20:25:07] <jp_mill> uw: what size screws
[20:25:21] <jp_mill> are rolled ok?
[20:27:01] <uw> rolled would be ok, also ball nuts
[20:27:07] <uw> 5/8" pref
[20:28:25] <andypugh> jp_mill:
http://pastebin.com/66Jh1aBc is a 15 line gray2pin component.
[20:28:38] <jp_mill> 5/8 thompson rolled is pretty cheap from mcmaster
[20:29:05] <andypugh> save as gray2bin.comp, comp --install gray2bin.comp, job done. Other than me not having tested it at all.
[20:31:37] <uw> mcmaster has something cheap?
[20:37:09] <jp_mill> yeah go figure 5/8 for some reason is way cheaper than everything else
[20:39:56] <jp_mill> andypugh: thanks!
[20:40:35] <andypugh> jp_mill: it is very likely to not work :-)
[20:41:11] <jp_mill> lol well at least i can try to figure out how to install it
[20:41:53] <jp_mill> not very linux savvy
[20:43:02] <spack> ahoy
[20:43:14] <spack> 20:16:30 uw : mcmaster has something cheap?
[20:43:15] <spack> lol
[20:45:56] <andypugh> jp_mill: You will probably need to add linuxcnc-dev. It _should_ be in the package manager
[20:49:59] <jp_mill> ok got it, but but it wont compile
[20:50:56] <uw> wow that price actually is reasonable...
[20:52:23] <uw> ohhh wait, thats per foot
[20:54:21] <jp_mill> andypugh: got the comp to install. Thanks!!
[20:55:03] <andypugh> That's an unusually good start :-)
[20:55:18] <jp_mill> uw: from what i remember 2ft of 5/8 was like $20
[20:55:42] <jp_mill> the nut was $50-70
[20:55:55] <jp_mill> but it was rolled screw
[20:56:35] <jp_mill> andypugh: what languge is comp? C#?
[20:57:10] <andypugh> When did you last want holes 12" apart to be +/- .005"?
[20:57:32] <jdh> I recently paid $118 for a 950mm 20mm screw, ballnut, and two bearing blocks of typical chinese quality.
[20:57:48] <andypugh> jp_mill: Comp is a set of special macros, then pure C after the ;;
[20:58:37] <andypugh> So, before the ;; you define the documentation and hal pins, and after the ;; you "do C" to them.
[20:59:17] <andypugh> Docs are here, it's pretty darned useful.
http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/html/hal/comp.html#code:simple-comp-example
[20:59:33] <jp_mill> ah. can you use python at all?
[20:59:45] <andypugh> Not in real-time code
[20:59:58] <jp_mill> so just user comps?
[21:00:03] <andypugh> Yes
[21:00:17] <jp_mill> ah ok
[21:00:57] <andypugh> HAL components are Linux Kernel Modules, that pretty much mandates C.
[21:01:39] <andypugh> Normally writing kernel modules is brainiac stuff, comp makes is really quite easy.
[21:03:17] <jp_mill> yeah i can see how useful it would be to make functions you would tend to try to use ladder for as well
[21:03:40] <andypugh> If that module works as advertised then I will push it to the next release.
[21:04:36] <jp_mill> so just addf in hal and load it, then use it correct
[21:05:00] <andypugh> In theory.
[21:06:32] <jp_mill> well it loaded ok
[21:07:03] <jp_mill> and i can see the in & out pins in hal config
[21:07:13] <andypugh> It doesn't seem to work rigt
[21:08:16] <andypugh> 0==0 1==0 4==0 (but 8==3 and 2==1)
[21:10:01] <jp_mill> havent got that far yet
[21:11:10] <uw> jp_mill, have you used both and would you say the ground screw is much better?
[21:11:19] <jp_mill> can i change the code in the comp and reinstall over it?
[21:11:25] <andypugh> http://pastebin.com/TEizC70P
[21:11:28] <uw> I'm thinking of converting a machine and really anything will be better than what i have now
[21:11:52] <jp_mill> ground is always better. but what is the application?
[21:12:00] <andypugh> jp_mill: Yes, alter the code then comp --install again
[21:12:22] <jp_mill> ok will have to break out my old C books
[21:13:41] <andypugh> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gray_code#Converting_to_and_from_Gray_code
[21:13:49] <uw> jp_mill, it's a RF-45 mill drill
[21:14:40] <jp_mill> ah ok the downside of rolled is usualy lead error per foot and backlash due to lack of pre-loaded nuts
[21:15:26] <jp_mill> you can make your own preloaded nuts but the cost is higher than buying asian ground screws
[21:15:48] <uw> oh i see
[21:15:50] <uw> glad i asked
[21:16:18] <uw> i have been reading about this and i only thought the only difference was ground units were typically hardened
[21:16:23] <uw> where the rolled ones not?
[21:16:44] <jp_mill> you really can't beat the cost of the import stuff sad to say especially if your not depending on it every day to make a living
[21:17:19] <uw> i didnt know it was a matter of the ballscrews
[21:17:27] <spack> balls
[21:17:28] <uw> yea i'm just doing it for hobby
[21:17:40] <spack> ballscrews are awesome
[21:17:44] <andypugh> jp_mill: I see where it went wrong, try this version:
http://pastebin.com/apLYUKHb
[21:18:37] <roycroft> ball screws are ball screws :)
[21:18:42] <roycroft> they're not always awesome
[21:19:04] <spack> they're always pretty awesome :)
[21:19:18] <spack> think about the technology that went into even the shittiest of ballscrews
[21:19:20] <roycroft> for cnc sure
[21:19:35] <roycroft> for manual milling they can be "challenging"
[21:19:44] <andypugh> rolled are nor good on lead error per foot, as has been said. I am not sure that has _ever_ mattered for anything I have made.
[21:19:49] <roycroft> like walking on ball bearings
[21:20:36] <jp_mill> lead error per foot can also be fixed in linuxcnc
[21:20:52] <andypugh> In manual machinign the push-back efficiency would be really strange.
[21:21:02] <roycroft> acme screws can be ground very accurately
[21:21:06] <roycroft> and ball screws rolled poorly
[21:21:08] <Tom_itx> reading from earlier, andypugh where would those 'fitted' worm gears be used?
[21:21:19] <Tom_itx> looked interesting
[21:21:21] <roycroft> making absolute statements is usually not very productive
[21:21:40] <andypugh> The ball ones or the ordinary globoidal ones?
[21:21:48] <Tom_itx> globoidal
[21:21:55] <andypugh> High loads.
[21:22:17] <andypugh> There is a lot more metal in contact.
[21:22:29] <Tom_itx> the radius would have to match the mating gear diameter
[21:22:39] <jp_mill> like anything with scres regardless of form you get what you pay for
[21:22:50] <jp_mill> screws^
[21:23:02] <uw> i guess thats true
[21:23:24] <uw> however what i'm really trying to avoid is paying a premium for the same thing i get cheaper elsewhere
[21:23:50] <uw> viewing these items as a commodity
[21:24:02] <andypugh> http://www.conedrive.com/Products/Power-Transmission-Products/double-enveloping-technology.php
[21:24:09] <uw> (in the seperate classes of rolled vs ground)
[21:24:59] <andypugh> I have always used the cheapest screws I could find at the time. So far I have not allocated any problems to this choice.
[21:25:09] <Tom_itx> are you gonna try to machine one?
[21:26:24] <uw> thanks andypugh
[21:26:28] <uw> good info
[21:26:29] <andypugh> The exception is that I did spend a lot of money on a preloaded 16mm screw for the Y of my mill, to replace the 12mm, and then found that the ball nut had external tubes not shown in the diagram, and that it probably won't fit.
[21:26:38] <uw> Tom_itx, i will probably have to
[21:26:56] <uw> well, yes. either I will or i will have someone else rather
[21:27:28] <andypugh> Tom_itx: I was awake all last night figuring out how to machine a ball-worm that was globoidal.
[21:27:39] <Tom_itx> and?
[21:27:43] <jp_mill> andypugh: thanks for the impromptu tutorial. Later!
[21:28:10] <andypugh> I have two main life-skills. Insomnia and alcohol tolerance. Neither are particularly valued by modern society.
[21:28:19] <spack> lol
[21:28:31] <spack> andypugh: you should move to asia
[21:28:44] <uw> actually even a rolled screw will probably be worlds better than what i have. the mill in stock form has the worst back lash i've ever seen in a machine. probably around 1/8"-3/16"
[21:28:45] <spack> korea in particular
[21:28:54] <roycroft> i'm an avid homebrewer, andypugh
[21:29:07] <roycroft> i greatlly appreciate the latter skill
[21:29:12] <roycroft> greatly, even
[21:29:21] <spack> my next brewing creation:
[21:29:25] <spack> a sour cider
[21:29:49] <andypugh> I just finished my first ever batch of homebrew wine. I might try one of the quirky "Vimto" or "Ribena" brews next.
[21:29:54] <spack> not sure if it will have lactobacillis or brettanomyyces
[21:30:39] <roycroft> if you use a good cider apple, or a good blend, you'll find it sour enough on its own
[21:30:48] <roycroft> apple contain lots of malic acid
[21:30:51] <spack> nah
[21:30:59] <spack> i've made regular ciders and they never come out very sour
[21:31:05] <spack> i'm talking about geuze levels of sourness
[21:31:25] <roycroft> and if you wait long enough, the cider will undergo a secondary malic-lactic acid ferment
[21:31:36] <roycroft> that occurs about six months after primary fermenation
[21:31:42] <andypugh> A friend and I bought a pint of dry cider each at the Great Dorset Steam Fair. It was quite nice, but _so_ dry we had to find a pint of beer almost immediatley.
[21:31:43] <spack> i have some cider that's probably been in the bottle for 2 years right now
[21:31:45] <roycroft> and assumes that you did a natural ferment
[21:32:10] <roycroft> cider tends to get that way unless you take measures to either halt fermentation or backsweeten it
[21:32:31] <spack> yeah, i like it that way though
[21:32:33] <spack> dry
[21:32:35] <roycroft> mine usually ferment down to about 0.096 or so
[21:32:43] <roycroft> dry as the sahara desert
[21:33:09] <roycroft> we're only a few weeks away from cider apples
[21:33:09] <spack> nomnom
[21:33:14] <spack> yeah
[21:33:23] <roycroft> i may be pressing 200L of cider this year
[21:33:27] <spack> awesome
[21:33:29] <roycroft> i have an in at a local orchard
[21:33:32] <spack> we're going to an orchard this weekend
[21:33:33] <andypugh> I can see it as a hobby, but I have decided that the stuff I can buy in the supermarket is nicer, and not a lot more expensive.
[21:33:34] <roycroft> who have a big hydraulic press :)
[21:33:46] <roycroft> i haven't mastered cider yet, andypugh
[21:33:54] <Tom_itx> andypugh, where's the adventure in that?
[21:33:54] <andypugh> Good apple year over here.
[21:34:05] <roycroft> i do make much better beer than is commonly available commercially, though
[21:34:10] <roycroft> and at about 1/4 the cost
[21:34:12] <andypugh> Last year there were none. Literally none.
[21:34:24] <roycroft> and i live in the craft beer mecca of the us
[21:34:24] <spack> last year we had no cherries
[21:34:31] <roycroft> poor apple set here this year
[21:34:47] <roycroft> oddly, though, north of here, in washington state, they're having a record crop
[21:34:55] <andypugh> I am riding my pushbike thorugh piles of apples this year.
[21:35:05] <roycroft> scrumpy material!
[21:35:06] <spack> ah, you live in rogueland
[21:35:14] <spack> The State of Rogue
[21:35:15] <roycroft> rogue is crap
[21:35:23] <andypugh> (lots of apples at the side of the road, from discarded cores)
[21:35:24] <spack> comes from your state
[21:35:28] <roycroft> i know
[21:35:34] <roycroft> my brew club meets at a local rogue alehouse
[21:35:36] <roycroft> i dispise it
[21:35:37] <spack> tell them to make better beer
[21:35:42] <roycroft> the beer is pedestrian at best
[21:35:46] <roycroft> and they treat their workers horribly
[21:35:49] <spack> i haven't had much of it
[21:35:52] <roycroft> i will not buy their beer under any circumstances
[21:36:05] <roycroft> i wish my brew club would find a new home
[21:36:13] <spack> doesn't seem hard..?
[21:36:32] <roycroft> they're not interested
[21:36:35] <roycroft> so it's hard
[21:36:53] <andypugh> Last year in the UK we had an early spring, followed by a late hard frost. The fruit trees flowered early, and the seed got killed.
[21:37:28] <spack> yeah, that happens sometimes
[21:37:46] <spack> seems like it happens every couple years in some part of the US with some crop or another
[21:38:04] <spack> i think we had no cherries last year because it was too dry and no blueberries for that reason
[21:38:19] <spack> and then this year, it's flooding
[21:38:25] <andypugh> There is one roadside tree that interests me. It's very tall, but holds the fruit until december. Long after the leaves have gone. I have never tasted the fruit, though.
[21:38:35] <spack> what sort of fruit?
[21:38:41] <andypugh> Apple
[21:39:31] <andypugh> Given that every natural apple tree is as unique as a person, maybe there is a market niche for it.
[21:39:40] <spack> when i was a kid i loved to eat the tiny crabapples from the side of the road
[21:40:01] <spack> yeah, you should graft that onto something
[21:40:30] <andypugh> Yeah, it somewhat bothers me that there is a load of fruit to be picked, but nobody does, they buy from the supermarket instead. And this includes me.
[21:41:04] <Tom_itx> when we had orchards around here we'd go pick fresh
[21:41:25] <andypugh> As a kid my mum had us put all the time picking blackberries and bilberries for jam.
[21:41:33] <Tom_itx> mostly peaches
[21:42:44] <Tom_itx> nothing quite like a cobbler with fresh peaches
[21:43:19] <spack> i have no idea what a bilberry is
[21:43:36] <andypugh> Bilberries are far tastier than blueberries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilberry
[21:43:44] <spack> i didn't know what most berries were until i moved to europe and had a bunch of non-native english speakers teach me the english names of them all
[21:43:57] <spack> i knew about blueberries and blackberries and strawberries, that's it
[21:44:24] <Tom_itx> there's a place here that makes elderberry wine
[21:45:35] <spack> i still don't know what an elderberry is
[21:45:45] <spack> i learned about cloudberries and currants
[21:45:48] <Tom_itx> it's got medicinal properties
[21:46:01] <spack> all i know about elderberries is that your mother smells of htem
[21:46:04] <spack> *them
[21:46:07] <spack> ;D
[21:46:10] <andypugh> spack: You had never seen Raspberries? We name computers after them!
[21:46:21] <spack> oh, i knew about those too :)
[21:47:00] <andypugh> Elderberry wine is a well-known brew, you should try making some.
[21:47:13] <spack> (the elderberry thing was a monty python reference btw :P )
[21:47:22] <spack> didn't mean to offend anyone's mother
[21:47:26] <Tom_itx> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sambucus
[21:47:33] <spack> i'm not sure where to get elderberries to make such a brew from
[21:47:49] <Tom_itx> this place grows their own
[21:47:58] <andypugh> Maybe an elder?
[21:48:18] <roycroft> elderberries grow wild thoroughout the uk, much of europe, and most of north america
[21:48:31] * roycroft is planting some elder bushes this fall
[21:48:38] <roycroft> elderflower cider is aweseome
[21:48:39] <spack> i've seen berries like that
[21:48:51] <spack> but i'm not totally sure how to distinguish them from similar berries
[21:49:02] <roycroft> i'm making rowan after we have our first frost
[21:49:05] <andypugh> If you have seen them, then they are most likely elderberries.
[21:49:12] <roycroft> which is wine made with mountain ash berries
[21:49:38] <spack> nice
[21:49:39] <roycroft> king salmon just started in the columbia river
[21:49:42] <roycroft> i'm grilling some tonight
[21:49:47] * spack looks up mountain ash berries
[21:49:55] <roycroft> and i'm making a raspberry compote to go with it
[21:50:02] <roycroft> with raspberries from my garden
[21:50:18] <andypugh> Belladonna wine might not be a great plan.
[21:50:19] <roycroft> we have the orange ones here
[21:50:23] <spack> haha
[21:50:41] <spack> now the daturas and brugmansias, i can identify... :)
[21:51:09] <roycroft> my signature brew is a scottish 80/ ale
[21:51:15] <roycroft> i've won awards with it
[21:51:31] <roycroft> i'm working on a book on gruit ales
[21:51:45] <roycroft> it will be some years hence before that is done
[21:51:52] <roycroft> i'm growing my own herbs for the gruits
[21:52:08] <roycroft> and most of them are in their first year - it's a fairly new project
[21:52:16] <roycroft> i'll need a few years to test and refine the recipes
[21:52:28] <spack> scottish ales are some of my favorites
[21:52:29] <andypugh> Actually, given a careful chemical analysis it is possible that Deadly Nghtshade wine might be perfectly safe, if the toxins ferment rather than killing the yeast. That might be quite an interesting brew.
[21:52:30] <roycroft> most of our knowledge of gruits has been lost or was never recorded
[21:52:57] <spack> scottish ales and sours
[21:53:03] <andypugh> roycroft: Ever tried a heather ale?
[21:53:10] <roycroft> yes, i brew heather ale a couple times a year
[21:53:18] <roycroft> i just put one on tap, as matter of fact
[21:53:30] <roycroft> it's lovely stuff
[21:53:41] <roycroft> and i use no hops in it
[21:53:53] <spack> what do you think of dandelion wine?
[21:53:59] <roycroft> just heather, bog myrtle (myrica gale), and yarrow for bittering
[21:54:16] <roycroft> i think it's a lot of work digging up and drying out the dandelion roots, so i've never made it
[21:54:24] <spack> ever tried it?
[21:54:30] <roycroft> not that i recall
[21:54:32] <spack> i'm interested
[21:54:53] <andypugh> I have not tried dandelion wine (I have been very drunk on Fraoch, though, with no morning ill effects)
[21:54:56] <roycroft> andypugh: have you had leann fraoch, from williams bros. ?
[21:55:38] <roycroft> when i was designing my heather ale i exchanged a few emails with bruce williams, who gave me some good pointers on making it well
[21:55:54] <roycroft> mine is rather different from theirs, but still quite tasty
[21:56:08] <roycroft> i use a 70/ malt base, and use the heather and other herbs in lieu of hops
[21:56:30] <spack> ever had a sahti?
[21:56:40] <roycroft> spack: a couple years ago i made a wee heavy, planning on serving it on burns night last
[21:56:46] <roycroft> but it got stuck at 1.034
[21:56:57] <roycroft> i tried for months to get it fermenting again
[21:57:06] <roycroft> finally i pitched some brett last october
[21:57:14] <roycroft> it's slowly fermenting down now
[21:57:19] <spack> wow
[21:57:21] <roycroft> and turning into a nice wee funky
[21:57:27] <spack> throwing in some brett is never a bad idea
[21:57:28] <roycroft> and no, i've not had sahti
[21:57:28] <andypugh> roycroft: Yes, I actually drank far too much after falling in to conversation with the brewery rep one night. In a great pub, the Ancient Unicorn in Bowes:
http://www.hauntedrooms.co.uk/ancient-unicorn-inn-co-durham
[21:57:29] <spack> :)
[21:57:39] <roycroft> sahti does not keep well
[21:57:46] <roycroft> but funny you should mention it
[21:58:02] <roycroft> i have an aspen tree that was growing right next to my house, and was leaning precariously
[21:58:17] <roycroft> i cut it, and hollowed out the main trunk
[21:58:30] <roycroft> next year, when that's nice and dry, i'm going to make sahti the traditional way
[21:58:45] <roycroft> lining the hollowed out trunk with juniper branches, and using that to lauter the mash
[21:58:59] <spack> nice
[21:59:01] <roycroft> i have a source for finnish baking yeast, which is what is used for traditional sahti
[21:59:12] <andypugh> 'tis entirely possible that the guy in the kilt who got me drunk was Bruce Willliams.
[21:59:35] <roycroft> that looks like a good place to drink fraoch, andypugh :)
[21:59:44] <roycroft> speaking of which
[21:59:52] <roycroft> i *do* wear a kilt when i brew scottish ale
[21:59:56] <spack> hehe
[22:00:06] <roycroft> it's just the right thing to do
[22:00:32] <roycroft> and since i've won awards with mine, it's difficult to argue otherwise :)
[22:00:45] <andypugh> I spent last weekend here:
http://www.fotolibra.com/gallery/659330/beck-hall-malham/
[22:01:06] <roycroft> nice
[22:01:20] <andypugh> It's truly lovely.
[22:01:27] <spack> i live pretty close to 3 floyds
[22:01:29] <roycroft> when i get further along with my book i intend to spend a month or so doing research in scotland
[22:01:38] <spack> they make a pretty damn good scottish ale
[22:01:47] <roycroft> i've not had theirs
[22:01:54] <andypugh> Look at that bridge (only access to the hotel) :-)
[22:02:02] <spack> they don't distribute that far west i guess
[22:02:12] <roycroft> nice, andypugh
[22:02:16] <spack> :)
[22:02:35] <roycroft> do you make beer, spack?
[22:03:14] <andypugh> Tripadvisor gives them bad reviews because the access is bad, I see that as a great feature. Those are slabs of stone making the spans, by the way.
[22:03:28] <spack> yeah, not as often as i'd like though
[22:03:37] <spack> i've been meaning to get started on an oatmeal stout for months
[22:03:53] <roycroft> all grain or extract?
[22:04:06] <andypugh> And you _can_ push a wheelchair through the ford, if you don't mind getting wet, so what's the problem?
[22:04:13] <roycroft> yes, i didn't think they were concrete, andypugh
[22:04:19] <roycroft> they look like real slabs of stone
[22:04:34] <spack> you can also push a wheel chair over a narrow bridge
[22:04:40] <roycroft> if you brew all grain, i'll tell you the secret to making proper scottish ale
[22:04:45] <roycroft> do *NOT* use crystal malt at all
[22:04:47] <roycroft> no no no
[22:04:50] <roycroft> that is for english beers
[22:05:00] <andypugh> So, Sahti? Sounds Finnish?
[22:05:04] <spack> indeed
[22:05:17] <roycroft> you take (for a 19L batch) 4L of first runnings, and reduce them to 1L
[22:05:18] <spack> no niin
[22:05:22] <roycroft> and add that back to the boil
[22:05:25] <roycroft> it is, andypugh
[22:05:58] <andypugh> I spend 5% of my life in Finland. What have I missed?
[22:06:02] <spack> lol
[22:06:15] <roycroft> my scottish ale recipe is simple - 98.5% golden promise (i'm using a 50/50 blend of thos. fawcett and simpson's currently), and 1.5% roasted barley
[22:06:15] <spack> i spent 10% of my life there :)
[22:06:23] <roycroft> never, EVER put peated malt in a scottish ale
[22:06:38] <roycroft> you can get the smokey notes by using the proper yeast and the proper fermentation profile
[22:06:51] <roycroft> and on that note, i'm off to the barbie
[22:06:57] <spack> thanks roycroft
[22:07:02] <spack> i'll hit you up when i try to make one
[22:07:05] <roycroft> compote is done, and salmon and asparagus need to go on the grill :)
[22:07:05] <spack> which i should
[22:07:09] <roycroft> feel free to do so
[22:07:12] <roycroft> i'm happy to help
[22:07:16] <spack> danke
[22:07:18] <roycroft> it's such an awesome beer style
[22:07:19] <andypugh> Yeah, it's an interesting brew
[22:07:58] <andypugh> I tend to like my beers darker, and maltier, but Heather is a nice change.
[22:08:47] <spack> andypugh: puhutks sä suomea?
[22:09:29] <andypugh> I think the very best pint I ever had was a Flowers. So good we drank another 8 before the pub shut, an hour later. It was Perfect.
[22:09:53] <spack> i've never had a heather
[22:10:32] <andypugh> spack: Hey, don't go thinking I have learned any of the language (much to my shame). I only work with british, germans and americans when I am there.
[22:10:42] <spack> heh
[22:10:46] <spack> you were in helsinki?
[22:10:56] <andypugh> Rovaniemi
[22:11:09] <spack> what kind of work happens in rovaniemi? :O
[22:11:17] <andypugh> 2 weeks every year
[22:11:50] <andypugh> http://www.arctictesting.fi
[22:12:02] <spack> i spent 3 years in jyväskylä
[22:13:13] <andypugh> jyväskylä looks very flat and very moist. Mosquitos?
[22:13:48] <spack> i didn't notice many mosquitos, but i also spent years in florida and i think i developed some kind of repellant towards them because i don't notice them anywhere i go anymore
[22:14:09] <spack> it's flat in that the highest and lowest points are probably within 100' of each other
[22:14:17] <spack> but there are lots of ups and downs and cliffs
[22:14:24] <spack> there was a lot of glacial activity
[22:14:47] <spack> there's also a ridge in the center of town
[22:15:00] <spack> i used to run up it when i couldn't sleep
[22:15:04] <spack> and i'd be dead by the top
[22:16:36] <tjtr33> CaptHindsight, JauchSchmider trunnions are nice ( owned by Hman now )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijzmi_-AMo8
[22:16:58] <spack> if you turn on the terrain feature in google maps you can see what i mean
[22:17:09] <spack> andypugh: what kind of testing do you do there?
[22:18:54] <andypugh> I was brought up round here:
http://goo.gl/maps/pTqvy The photo flattens it. You will note that the footpath has a hand-rail. The curvy pale fence is my sister's house. Her cellar is largely above-ground on the lower side, and in fact she sould fit a sub-cellar under the garden.
[22:19:49] <andypugh> It's cobbled because Tarmac falls off ;_0
[22:20:47] <spack> i like how it's unsuitable for motor vehicles
[22:20:51] <spack> but there is a car going down it :)
[22:20:58] <andypugh> spack: We mainly test that the cars still start and drive OK.
[22:22:05] <andypugh> Down the hill is OK. Few attempt up. I used to cycle up, but only as a chalenge and a chance to use the lowest gear. (You have to work on keeping the front wheel down)
[22:22:24] <spack> heh
[22:22:27] <spack> reminds me of madeira
[22:23:06] <andypugh> I think the next road to the right is even sillier
[22:23:34] <andypugh> (though shrter)
[22:23:40] <spack> for some reason the terrain feature doesn't work here
[22:24:07] <spack> i see, i have to zoom out a bunch
[22:28:04] <andypugh> Back to subject, Denford Lathes (not far away)
http://goo.gl/maps/9mz10
[22:35:25] <andypugh> Playing the same game, Dean Smith and Grace, still making possibly the world's best lathes.
http://goo.gl/maps/GdFku
[22:36:26] <andypugh> (daft place to build a factory
[22:38:11] <andypugh> And Harrison are still huge:
http://goo.gl/maps/czl0Y
[22:41:40] <andypugh> And one last name to conjour with:
http://goo.gl/maps/y2r0B
[22:42:08] <andypugh> (I used to work next door)
[22:43:18] <andypugh> Quite what makes a bearing cost this much is beyond me:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Gamet-Super-Precision-Bearing-140085-140140HE0-/281172652987?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item41773233bb but clearly it is keeling them in business.
[22:48:51] <andypugh> Anyway, goodnight chaps.
