#linuxcnc | Logs for 2013-09-02

[00:12:40] <KimK_1> nspiel: See http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/config/ini_config.html#sub:TRAJ-section under LINEAR_UNITS and ANGULAR_UNITS
[00:13:23] <KimK_1> Oops
[00:13:41] <KimK_1> nspiel_: See http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/config/ini_config.html#sub:TRAJ-section under LINEAR_UNITS and ANGULAR_UNITS
[00:20:00] <nspiel_> thanks!
[00:20:36] <nspiel_> wait no i mean the units for input scale
[00:20:45] <nspiel_> is it encoder counts/degree
[00:35:03] <tjtr33> anybody need a set of pin gauges? http://www.shopgoodwill.com/auctions/Set-Vermont-Gage--Class-ZZ-Gage-198-Members-14119973.html
[01:58:32] <DJ9DJ> moin
[05:47:41] <unbekanntespezie> hi
[05:55:54] <DJ9DJ> hi there
[09:30:22] <skunkworks> running over night.. http://www.electronicsam.com/images/KandT/testing/Screenshot%20from%202013-09-02%2009:14:15.png
[09:30:54] <skunkworks> Just dawned on me that the nic isn't supported by rtnet yet.. Oh well. it will be a nice testing laptop
[09:45:57] <pcw_home> The NIC will be supported by RT-preempt however, so that may eventually be an option
[09:51:59] <skunkworks> pcw_home: neat
[09:57:19] <skunkworks> well - it is using the linux RTL8169 driver.. I wonder if the rtnet one would work
[09:57:43] <skunkworks> (it is the 8411
[10:01:15] <pcw_home> Might be the same (Windows driver is the same)
[10:01:16] <pcw_home> But I know the RT-net 8169 driver does not work with the 8168 so no guarantees
[10:02:42] <skunkworks> ah
[10:03:02] <pcw_home> These MAC issues are why I would like to get a rt-preempt/packet-mmap option
[10:03:03] <pcw_home> even if theres 200 usec or so of latency
[10:03:27] <pcw_home> I can deal with the latency issues in hardware
[10:09:31] <spack> what's the xenomai kernel?
[10:10:01] <spack> nm, just looked it up
[11:26:26] <gambakufu> when I click home the values of the axis doesn't change to 0. what could cause that? some global variable the defines the axis messed up?
[11:30:27] <cradek> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/common/User_Concepts.html#_when_you_8217_re_lost
[11:30:37] <gambakufu> ok, it seems I messed around with g54
[12:20:42] <IchGuckLive_> power outige here
[12:21:31] <IchGuckLive> hi all B)
[12:22:08] <IchGuckLive> a nice warm sunner day as temp has retched the summer level here
[12:46:18] <IchGuckLive> all quite here
[12:59:57] <IchGuckLive> im off by
[14:38:27] <andypugh> I don't think I will be welcome in Machinist Heaven any more: https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/GQJ640wFi03H2VrakHD-YdMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink
[14:39:04] <andypugh> (How to turn a 9" foundry pattern on an 8.5" lathe)
[14:40:36] <jthornton> nothing wrong with that... what are you making?
[14:40:59] <andypugh> jthornton: Look more carefully at the headstock..
[14:41:11] <jthornton> I saw that
[14:41:26] <jthornton> super idea
[14:41:37] <andypugh> Ghetto riser blocks.
[14:41:58] <andypugh> It's a pattern for a drive pulley for the lathe.
[14:42:12] <andypugh> The one I have is too small and the steps are wrong.
[14:43:02] <andypugh> So not only do I need an idler at the back to stop the belt rubbing, I need a _stepped_ idler at the back to make up for the different belt path lengths.
[14:49:06] <andypugh> Yikes! http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=870_1377954297
[14:50:58] <jthornton> that was close
[15:13:34] <andypugh> I don't need one, but this seems keenly priced: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/9-SKIMPY-OIL-SKIMMER-FOR-CNC-LATHEMILL-OIL-SKIMMERS-/300958860417
[15:24:40] <toastydeath> oil skimmers are a goddamn lifesaver
[15:24:56] <syyl> normaly those things are incredible expensive
[15:25:26] <kwallace2> It seems like it would be easy enough to make.
[15:25:51] <syyl> friend made one, using round urethane belt
[15:26:01] <syyl> looked almost the same like the one in the ebay link
[15:28:47] <skunkworks> andypugh: a couple of things that would make 'purists' upset... :0
[16:08:33] <joebog> good morning all
[16:08:41] <joebog> is andypugh avail;able ?
[16:09:08] <andypugh> 'Appen as maybe
[16:09:46] <joebog> quick question for ya does linuxcnc drive driver boards directly ?
[16:09:59] <joebog> or do we need an interface
[16:10:23] <andypugh> I think you need to define "driver board" and "directly"
[16:10:49] <joebog> driver board equals decoder and probably buffer amps
[16:11:13] <joebog> directly means say two pins carrying info direct to driver board with buffers
[16:11:26] <andypugh> You always need _some_ interface, because linuxCNC is just software.
[16:12:10] <andypugh> But you can, for example, drive steppers with only a current buffer direct from the parport.
[16:12:17] <joebog> OK any circuits available ?? I have done a moderate search on site, BUT theres more information here than in London Library
[16:12:37] <andypugh> What sort of current?
[16:12:50] <joebog> those motors in my pics
[16:13:12] <joebog> I dont have an exact current but the boards in the Cipher box are rated 3 amps or so
[16:13:43] <joebog> I understand of course that the parr port cant drive direct
[16:13:50] <joebog> I will need drivers
[16:14:09] <andypugh> Well, with _really_ small unipolar steppers you probably could drive dirct.
[16:14:10] <joebog> or buffer amps or whatever the techy name is
[16:14:38] <andypugh> (I have some 6mm dia steppers, but they are not Unipolar so I have not been able to try it).
[16:14:54] <joebog> yep I understand that :) the first "printer" I owned was an ex PMG teletype
[16:14:57] <andypugh> I thought you had stepper drivers in tge box?
[16:15:07] <joebog> I do
[16:15:37] <joebog> I dont have ANY information on what the box requires its a winderz disaster that I know nothing about
[16:15:39] <andypugh> If you can figure out what the input to those is (quite probably a 4-phase pattern) then you can generate that direct from the parport.
[16:15:50] <joebog> plus I bought 5 more small boards
[16:16:06] <joebog> OK thats what I was after
[16:16:26] <andypugh> The small boards you got are step/dir. The original drives look to have a few more pins than that.
[16:16:53] <andypugh> At 4 pins per drive you will soon run out of pins on the parport, though
[16:17:05] <joebog> yep that I know
[16:17:13] <joebog> thats what I am asking
[16:17:26] <joebog> I know my question was pretty broad
[16:17:41] <andypugh> I know that Mesa cards support step patterns other than step/dir, though.
[16:17:53] <joebog> although I have (or will have ) 4 motors
[16:18:18] <joebog> BUT I think I will need some sort of feedback maybe in the form of limit switches or similar
[16:18:27] <andypugh> Though I am not sure which firmwares do
[16:18:52] <andypugh> Yes, you will want home switches at the very least, but they can all share an input pin.
[16:18:56] <joebog> so the brag of linuxcnc is up to 9 axis
[16:19:30] <andypugh> The 9-axis limit is a G-code limit. LinuxCNC can control an indeterminate number of separate motors.
[16:19:31] <joebog> somebody must have tested that and come up with some sort of decoder/pre driver circuitry
[16:20:30] <joebog> and g-code is the interpreter for linuxcnc isnt it ?
[16:20:45] <joebog> I mean my understanding is this
[16:20:51] <andypugh> I have a 7i80 behind me that would drive 64 three-phase brushless motors, if I could afford the interface boards and drives, and that connects to the PC via a single ethernet cable.
[16:21:27] <joebog> start with DXF convert to rs432 or whatever it is, using g-code to make it talk engraving machine language
[16:21:29] <andypugh> Yes, the 9-axis limit is that G-code only understands XYZ ABC UVW as axis movement commands. All other letters mean something else.
[16:22:04] <joebog> OK
[16:22:43] <andypugh> But you can use a subset of LinuxCNC and a custom (non G-code) interface to drive as many motors as you have IO pins to control.
[16:23:17] <joebog> I staryted reading the beginners instructions and have worked out its gonna take me more time to learn the software than to build the machine :)
[16:23:23] <andypugh> And I reckon you could get up to 5000 IO pins if you maxed out all the PCI slots, ethernet ports and parallel ports of a standard PC.
[16:24:01] <joebog> Ill start with 3 motors :)
[16:24:06] <joebog> no speed control
[16:24:19] <joebog> and later I will add an indexing chuck
[16:24:41] <andypugh> If you ask around I think you will find that most of us here are not using the parport any more. (I am on one machine, but as an interface to an FPGA card)
[16:24:58] <joebog> I have a bunch of steppers taken from Shugart 360k floppy drives
[16:25:17] <joebog> I was gonna try make a quick mockup with those to get a basic understanding
[16:25:34] <andypugh> I was told once that at the "S" in SCSI was "Shugart"
[16:26:29] <joebog> Its the brand !! absolutely beautifully made 8 inch 360 k single sided floppy disk drives
[16:26:41] <joebog> they later went double sided and became 720 k
[16:26:46] <joebog> :D
[16:26:51] <joebog> showin my age aint i ?
[16:27:38] <joebog> I actually started with puch cards and a tape reader :D
[16:27:48] <joebog> PDP11
[16:27:57] <andypugh> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/html/hal/rtcomps.html#_stepgen_a_id_sec_stepgen_a has a fairly detailed description of stepgen, and shows the various patterns you can have.
[16:28:00] <joebog> 35 years ago
[16:28:20] <andypugh> My employer retired the last PDP11 2 years ago. I was using it 3 years ago.
[16:29:06] <andypugh> They only retired it because the entire dyno was due for an upgrade, the controller still worked as well as it ever had.
[16:30:41] <joebog> well its part of history now I guess
[16:32:18] <joebog> are off the shelf commercial boards available that will interface direct to a linuxcnc controlled PC ?
[16:32:34] <joebog> I dont mean current drivers
[16:33:18] <joebog> the Cipher machine would be a good place to start IF I could find anything at all about it
[16:33:29] <joebog> I do have "trial" software to look at
[16:33:39] <joebog> but its Xtra Problems based
[16:33:58] <joebog> XP
[16:34:19] <skunkworks> yes
[16:34:35] <skunkworks> look at mesa or pico systems
[16:34:39] <joebog> gday from australia skunk
[16:34:41] <skunkworks> (i like mesa)
[16:34:49] <joebog> OK
[16:34:52] <skunkworks> Hi from wisconsin
[16:35:00] <joebog> ya have a link ? or is it easy to find ?
[16:35:50] <skunkworks> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?LinuxCNC_Supported_Hardware
[16:37:22] <skunkworks> for about 89 dollars you can get a pci 5i25 board from mesa that out of the box acts as 2 printer ports with high speed step gen/ pwm/ encoder counters.. (and very expandable)
[16:38:16] <joebog> HHmm sounds interesting
[16:38:33] <joebog> I just scanned that link you gave !!! wow I have a learning curve
[16:39:29] <skunkworks> linuxcnc strength is its flexibility... (and its weakness as it could be overwhelming..)
[16:39:41] <joebog> have any people from this group shown their systems in circuit form ??
[16:39:55] <joebog> I have looked at plenty of youchoob movies
[16:40:03] <skunkworks> andypugh: did you see this http://www.electronicsam.com/images/KandT/testing/Screenshot%20from%202013-09-02%2009:14:15.png
[16:40:04] <joebog> but thats NOT what Im lookin for
[16:40:06] <skunkworks> laptop
[16:40:20] <joebog> it IS overwhelming skunk :)
[16:40:30] <joebog> and Im not new to SCADA systems
[16:41:23] <skunkworks> joebog: when people get their systems working - the rarely go back and document :(
[16:41:28] <skunkworks> I have not
[16:41:51] <joebog> I see :(
[16:42:00] <joebog> Im more classically trained I guess
[16:42:00] <skunkworks> I am running 48 i/o and 4 + axis
[16:42:17] <joebog> Ill "publish" all I do here for the next noddy like me :)
[16:42:24] <skunkworks> nice!
[16:42:56] <kengu> joebog: that is what you say
[16:42:59] <joebog> did you see my photobucket pics ?
[16:43:46] <skunkworks> no
[16:43:47] <joebog> I will kengu :)
[16:44:07] <joebog> juzza sec
[16:44:18] <joebog> take a look at "bluesbaby" file
[16:44:28] <skunkworks> this is me... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39q6kvrSBSk
[16:44:29] <Tecan> (39q6kvrSBSk) "Kearney and Trecker CNC running simple program. (tool changing and everything)" by "samcoinc" is "Education" - Length: 0:03:29
[16:44:33] <joebog> its a little guitar amp I made for newbies to valves
[16:44:46] <joebog> I did colour coded step by step instructions
[16:46:25] <DJ9DJ> gn8
[16:46:55] <skunkworks> ah - your a tube guy?
[16:47:52] <joebog> http://s80.photobucket.com/user/amp_mangler/library/
[16:47:58] <joebog> yes I amp
[16:48:07] <joebog> have been for over 50 years
[16:48:10] <skunkworks> heh
[16:48:17] <joebog> I built my first radio at age 8
[16:48:40] <joebog> I design and wind all my own transformers too
[16:56:38] <joebog> NICE tollchanger skunk !!!!
[16:56:57] <joebog> chip breaker could do with shorter period and ya need coolant :D
[16:57:07] <joebog> cheeky bastid aint I ? :)
[16:57:15] <joebog> toolchanger evn
[16:58:24] <skunkworks> that was not a well optimized program
[16:59:08] <joebog> mebbe so but Im impressed !! the toolchanger is origional or did you build it ?
[16:59:35] <joebog> and I cannot believe you use unity desk disaster
[16:59:45] <joebog> re the link on laptops
[17:00:12] <joebog> I still run gnome 2.7 !!
[17:00:39] <joebog> although this laptop is Mint Mate
[17:01:04] <mozmck> I like Cinnamon pretty well.
[17:01:20] <mozmck> and E17 looks slick, but I haven't played with it much
[17:01:37] <joebog> cinnamon is backwards !!!
[17:01:51] <joebog> ya might as well call it windowz
[17:01:52] <mozmck> backwards from what?
[17:01:56] <joebog> horrible layout
[17:02:19] <mozmck> hmm, not much different than the old gnome on layout.
[17:02:49] <joebog> except gnome doesnt need 500 kliks to get anywhere
[17:03:30] <mozmck> nor does cinnamon. not sure what you mean there. Gnome3 takes a lot more clicks...
[17:03:37] <joebog> I guess Ive used old gnome since it was released and Im used to it
[17:03:50] <joebog> I run 2.7
[17:03:58] <joebog> gnome 3 is a bomb
[17:04:01] <joebog> I hate it
[17:04:01] <mozmck> I did too, and now I like cinnamon pretty well.
[17:04:19] <mozmck> and xfce, and lxde, and e17, but not Unity or Gnome3 :)
[17:04:36] <joebog> OK OK I agree with you :)
[17:05:12] <joebog> unity and gnome 3 are designed to con windowz users into it I guess
[17:05:24] <joebog> cause when I try use windows I need replace em
[17:05:38] <joebog> as I throw the bloody stupid thing through a Window
[17:05:48] <mozmck> heh! Have you looked at E17? I installed it today, and it is really slick graphically. The EFL libraries look very interesting as well.
[17:06:21] <mozmck> I use windows only when I have to, and it's XP running under VirtualBox :)
[17:06:22] <joebog> :) I already have 5 PC,s most are dual and triple boot !!!
[17:06:29] <joebog> I have enough desktops
[17:06:47] <joebog> but I always seem to end up with gnome 2.7
[17:07:09] <joebog> I havent installed virtualbox OR wine
[17:07:21] <mozmck> How do you like Mate compared with gnome2.7?
[17:07:24] <joebog> if its not available unix/linux I dont need it
[17:07:30] <joebog> I dont play games I guess
[17:08:05] <mozmck> virtualbox sure beats having to dual boot. I have to use windows for a few things with my work, and dual boot would be a pain.
[17:08:17] <joebog> mate is more logical layout with buttons on left and bar at top
[17:08:22] <mozmck> No gaming here either.
[17:08:29] <joebog> and no stuffing about moving and adding things
[17:08:35] <skunkworks> I have 7, xp and 10.04 in virtual box.
[17:08:37] <skunkworks> it is nice
[17:08:38] <joebog> for me its true PNP
[17:09:56] <joebog> attempt number 7 is a disaster !! but NOT as bad bad as the 8 ball
[17:10:13] <skunkworks> joebog: the tool changer and everything is original - just retrofited with linuxcnc. (it was delivered to a local company in 1969)
[17:10:40] <skunkworks> 7 is ok.. compared to vista and 8... agreed
[17:10:42] <joebog> nice machine skunk !!!
[17:10:57] <joebog> but then I havent been in too many machine shops
[17:11:04] <skunkworks> it is old
[17:11:13] <joebog> it works !!!
[17:11:24] <skunkworks> very well
[17:11:25] <joebog> like the engraver im modifying to linux
[17:11:51] <joebog> old and STRONG ( weighs about a ton)
[17:12:28] <joebog> its already been hacked from the origional english NC control to that Cipher crap that there is ZERO information on
[17:12:39] <joebog> and full software is $7500 aus
[17:13:02] <joebog> PLUS you need that commercial virus as an OS
[17:13:12] <kwallace2> joebog: Which amps did you decide to use the Cipher or the kit you got from eBay?
[17:13:26] <joebog> which as you know comes with a free large pack of blue screens
[17:13:53] <joebog> I will play with both kwallace
[17:14:42] <joebog> BUT as you ( or was it CaptHindsight) that pointed out the kit I bought is 1.5 amps RMS
[17:15:03] <joebog> I wish yanks would specify like the rest of the world
[17:15:20] <joebog> everything is peak and PMPO power no "real" figures
[17:15:27] <kwallace2> I'm trying to remember the make and model on those Cipher amps.
[17:15:47] <joebog> something or other 2000
[17:15:57] <joebog> Im on another PC now so dont have access
[17:16:12] <joebog> they are rated 3 amps RMS and 4 amps peak
[17:17:01] <joebog> I did a ltency check on the little machine I made for the controller !! I get about 2500 max jitter
[17:17:11] <kwallace2> IM2000F is the chip in the amp or rather driver.
[17:17:14] <joebog> so should work I guess
[17:17:40] <kwallace2> You mean 25000?
[17:17:43] <joebog> I did make another machine after andy told me that simple is better and when I checked he was right
[17:18:01] <joebog> now I have a little 2 gig 2 core instead of the Zeon 3360
[17:18:30] <joebog> 2500
[17:18:33] <joebog> not 25000
[17:18:44] <joebog> BUT its only got linuxcnc on it
[17:18:54] <joebog> all I could do was move files around
[17:19:50] <kwallace2> 2500 is very good.
[17:20:32] <joebog> as I say though I dont have anything on board yet to stress the processor
[17:20:58] <joebog> I will get the type when I get in there
[17:21:05] <kwallace2> Okay I found your driver: http://www.wallawalla.edu/academics/departments/engineering/students/classes/engr480/docs/Steppers/IM483.pdf
[17:21:08] <joebog> its some baby Intel dual core
[17:22:16] <joebog> yep thats it
[17:22:28] <joebog> you found it for me the other day too :)
[17:22:30] <joebog> thanks again
[17:26:00] <joebog> question for everybody
[17:26:19] <joebog> can stepper motor drives be "bridged" to double the output current ?
[17:28:12] <kwallace2> Page 41 shows the input configuration. (5 -1 V)/470 Ohms = 8.5 ma so you could use a parallel port pin directly, although I use 3ma as a max. but it's safer to sink than source so you should be okay.
[17:29:03] <kwallace2> I would assume the amps worked with those motors so should have enough watts, at least for now.
[17:31:20] <joebog> that is an excellent manual !!!
[17:31:38] <joebog> Ive just done a little skimming and suddenly its not so daunting :)
[17:37:43] <kwallace2> If you have a DB25 connector with solder cups you could run a step and dir signal from the parallel port to the driver step and dir. Run a +5 wire from a PC power DC power plug to the driver's opto supply input. Jumper the other inputs (enable and reset) up or down as needed. Wire up the motor supply. Then you should be ready to move an axis.
[17:39:01] <joebog> I have a 25D breakout board with screw terminals
[17:40:02] <kwallace2> You will need the bits on page 43 to setup LinuxCNC's timing configuration in the .ini file, or the stepconf utility.
[17:40:06] <kwallace2> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/html/quickstart/stepper_quickstart.html
[17:40:20] <kwallace2> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/html/config/stepconf.html
[17:40:40] <joebog> and when I get into town ( Im still at home) ill do some voltage measurements and post em so I can ask better questions with some sort of reference you guys will understand
[17:42:37] <joebog> Ill also do some closeups on the Cipher controller
[17:43:03] <kwallace2> I would tend to remove the drivers and motor supply from the Cipher and screw them to a piece of plywood. That should be all that you need.
[17:43:27] <joebog> the boards dont require heatsinking ?
[17:43:41] <joebog> they are screwed to the steel box in the Cipher
[17:44:15] <joebog> I have umpteen transformers available, Ill make a new supply based on whats already there
[17:44:31] <CaptHindsight> http://softsolder.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/chips.gif
[17:44:32] <joebog> If I can ill try resell the cipher to some windowz user
[17:45:16] <joebog> a micrometer and a hammer :D
[17:45:18] <joebog> I like that
[17:45:20] <kwallace2> Probably not for now, the drivers should have enough thermal and current protection for testing.
[17:45:24] <CaptHindsight> maniacal tux
[17:46:36] <joebog> The gunsmith Im doing the work for has plenty of machines to make anything mechanical Ill need
[17:47:17] <joebog> But I figured on doing a mockup to test all the ideas out, then build a dedicated cabinet for the finalk version
[17:48:13] <joebog> so your suggestion is exactly as I had planned
[17:49:20] <joebog> alright everybody, thanks all very much for the help and suggestions
[17:49:35] <joebog> Ill post some more pics and some data tomorrow
[17:49:50] <joebog> bye for now
[18:20:40] <kwallace2> Those IM438 drivers looked pretty neat, so I looked on eBay to see if any were any there, and by mistake, I pressed Buy It Now on a pair of them. Oops
[18:21:18] <kwallace2> oops 1m483
[18:21:24] <CaptHindsight> at least it wasn't a car
[18:22:18] <kwallace2> I'm getting as bad as Andy.
[18:23:01] <Tom_itx> haha
[18:25:25] <CaptHindsight> whats the actual part number?
[18:26:45] <CaptHindsight> IM483
[18:27:38] <kwallace2> These are the ones I got: http://www.ebay.com/itm/300958566604
[18:30:37] <CaptHindsight> http://motion.schneider-electric.com/downloads/manuals/im2000s.pdf data sheet for the ims 2000s chip
[18:30:39] <kwallace2> http://motion.schneider-electric.com/products/im483.html
[18:35:14] <CaptHindsight> eBay item number: 321194930667 can't be any noisier than these :)
[18:38:31] <kwallace2> Noisy?
[18:47:35] <CaptHindsight> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdbMSwJozF0
[18:58:51] <andypugh> Yes, I accidentally bought a rack of PSU, Digiplan CD40 and all the other parts, plus the steppers a few weeks ago.
[18:59:08] <andypugh> The bigget stepper I have seen, a 4" dia x 7" long one.
[19:01:00] <andypugh> Handily the whole manual is here: http://www.denfordata.com/downloads/dos/cd20-30.pdf but I have no idea what I am going to do with it.
[19:01:11] <andypugh> I had assumed it was a servo kit...
[19:10:06] * JT-Deck misses Woody
[19:11:59] <andypugh> Night chaps
[19:12:24] <kwallace2> CaptHindsight: Yes they are noisy. I wonder if they are using multi-stepping? My Shizuoka drivers sing from the PWM current limit as well as half-stepping.
[19:46:50] <nspiel> hi all
[19:47:00] <nspiel> anyone know the units on the input scale for the ini
[19:47:41] <Tom_itx> what you set your units to
[19:47:51] <Tom_itx> inch or metric
[19:47:51] <nspiel> deg and mm
[19:48:03] <nspiel> so is it encoder tics/ mm
[19:48:12] <nspiel> and encoder tics/ deg
[19:48:31] <Tom_itx> i'm not the last authority on it but i believe so
[19:48:53] <nspiel> are you running servos?
[19:49:09] <Tom_itx> i showed you my stepper files
[19:49:19] <Tom_itx> no i'm running steppers
[19:49:22] <nspiel> ohh right
[19:49:34] <nspiel> thank you btw those helped a lot
[19:49:52] <nspiel> now im basically trying to calibrate the arm
[19:49:58] <nspiel> i still havent tried to move the motors
[19:50:15] <nspiel> im getting encoder feedback though and the scara arm gui is moving around with my arm when i manually move the joints
[19:53:31] <nspiel> im kinda scared to start the pwm motor process
[19:53:46] <nspiel> is the scara gui is moving and its counting encoder tics doesnt that mean that the kinematics are working
[19:54:40] <Tom_itx> enable one axis at a time
[19:56:42] <nspiel> i still need to get the proper input scalings and joint distances
[19:57:07] <nspiel> i was also going to just tune it with the axis pid tuning built in thing. is that the preffered method'?
[19:58:38] <Tom_itx> i've never done servo but i would assume so
[20:03:05] <CaptHindsight> are the motors mounted in the robot?
[20:03:39] <nspiel> yep
[20:04:18] <CaptHindsight> I usually start with them out, but sometimes you can't or they are linear motors
[20:05:16] <nspiel> its pretty hard to take them out
[20:05:26] <nspiel> i would pretty much have to take the whole robot apart
[20:05:42] <CaptHindsight> do you have overcurrent protection in the servo amps?
[20:06:21] <nspiel> there is a built in fuse to my mesa drivers
[20:06:25] <CaptHindsight> or better put, is the system setup safely?
[20:06:48] <nspiel> here is the setup
[20:07:17] <nspiel> input power-> killswitch-> power supply board-> motor drivers and 7i43 -> arm
[20:07:42] <CaptHindsight> if the gui shows that your encoders are moving in the right direction that's a plus
[20:07:48] <nspiel> yeah it does
[20:08:00] <nspiel> doesnt that also mean the kinematics are working/
[20:08:01] <nspiel> ?
[20:08:08] <CaptHindsight> can the arm safely move over its full range of travel?
[20:08:40] <nspiel> yep
[20:10:15] <CaptHindsight> if there's no problem with the motor getting locked at the end of travel, try a short move
[20:10:31] <CaptHindsight> what are you current PID settings
[20:10:34] <nspiel> will it move when i plug in power
[20:10:40] <nspiel> if i just start it up
[20:10:46] <nspiel> all the pwm signals should be atr 0 right
[20:12:58] <CaptHindsight> what mode are you using? torque?
[20:14:32] <CaptHindsight> 0 is zero torque
[20:15:14] <CaptHindsight> same for position or velocity mode, 0 = zero position or velocity
[20:15:44] <nspiel> i think velocity but how can i verify
[20:18:02] <CaptHindsight> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Tuning_LinuxCNC/HAL_PID_Loops have you been through this?
[20:18:35] <nspiel> yeah i was just looking at that
[20:18:38] <nspiel> just kinda scared
[20:21:43] <CaptHindsight> I would think that you'd want to use torque mode for robot arms
[20:22:13] <nspiel> yeah i think you are right
[20:22:45] <nspiel> so this is interesting im trying to figure out the input scaling on my enoders since they are so old and i just did and experiment
[20:23:37] <nspiel> i moved one of the joints through 180deg and it counted 1800 counts which means my scaling is 1800/180 = 10 counts/deg which is vastly different than my current scaling
[20:24:50] <CaptHindsight> how did you arrive at your current scaling settings?
[20:25:57] <CaptHindsight> now that it's all hooked up you can read actual counts from the encoders
[20:26:03] <nspiel> change them- see how the ouput changes in the axis values in the gui when i move the joints repeat
[20:28:07] <CaptHindsight> I haven't been following your build too closely, not sure how you got your numbers
[20:30:43] <nspiel> i started with the default 7i43 config ones then changed them from there empirically
[20:33:24] <CaptHindsight> what are you using for a servo amp?
[20:33:27] <nspiel> oh ya now it goes crazy on the gui when i changed the input scaling
[20:33:33] <nspiel> im using a mesa 7i25
[20:33:43] <nspiel> the scaling is way too low now
[20:37:06] <CaptHindsight> I've never used the 7i25, just reading over the data sheet now
[20:38:17] <CaptHindsight> there is a "Check-out" section for first test recommendations
[20:42:08] <CaptHindsight> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2STkBhUiKwg
[20:42:09] <Tecan> (2STkBhUiKwg) "LinuxCNC delta robot test" by "Parallel robots" is "Tech" - Length: 0:01:06
[20:43:23] <nspiel> awesome
[20:43:50] <nspiel> what do u mean about the checkout section
[20:44:03] <CaptHindsight> in the 7i25 manual
[20:44:34] <CaptHindsight> also 2 test programs
[20:45:26] <nspiel> i dont have either of those control boards though
[20:45:37] <nspiel> i made a custom connector to make them work with the 7i43
[20:46:08] <CaptHindsight> I usually start by making short moves
[20:46:27] <pcw_home> First assume it may runaway so be ready to power down the drivers...
[20:46:28] <CaptHindsight> but you need to get your scaling set right
[20:46:47] <CaptHindsight> yeah, runaway or oscillate
[20:46:59] <pcw_home> do you have a separate power supply for the HBridges?
[20:47:05] <CaptHindsight> linear motors are more exciting
[20:47:53] <pcw_home> Yeah, too fast to keep from crashing into the stops so better have FE working...
[20:48:14] <nspiel> no it is all one large cnc powersupply on a killswitch for everything
[20:48:29] <nspiel> FE?
[20:48:33] <CaptHindsight> you should have your e-stop wired correctly to kill the motors properly
[20:48:41] <pcw_home> Following Error
[20:49:01] <nspiel> whats that
[20:49:04] <pcw_home> You should verify the FE works before powering the hBridges
[20:49:26] <nspiel> whats following error
[20:49:43] <pcw_home> difference between commanded and actual position
[20:50:10] <nspiel> ohhh right
[20:50:16] <nspiel> how can i verify that it works
[20:50:27] <pcw_home> if you have feedback backwards (you have a 50%chance) the axis will runaway the first time you power them up
[20:50:35] <nspiel> got it
[20:50:40] <nspiel> so how can i verify that
[20:50:57] <nspiel> the gui is moving the same way as the axis real direction so that may be good
[20:51:01] <nspiel> the scara gui
[20:51:20] <pcw_home> Thats good but not sufficient
[20:51:50] <nspiel> so what is the sufficient way
[20:52:46] <pcw_home> The slow was is figure out which way the motors drive vs error
[20:53:15] <pcw_home> slow way
[20:53:31] <nspiel> so jog them in axis and then see if they slowly run away?
[20:54:18] <pcw_home> if feedback is backwards, they will run away away full speed
[20:54:29] <pcw_home> you will have no control
[20:54:36] <nspiel> oh boy thats not good
[20:55:07] <nspiel> so how can i verify that the error is correct without power
[20:56:11] <pcw_home> If things are properly setup, a runaway will immediately cause a FE,
[20:56:12] <pcw_home> turn off drive enable and stop the drives but this should not be depended on initially
[20:58:01] <pcw_home> so first thing I would do is disconnect the motors from the drives start your config and verify
[20:58:03] <pcw_home> 1. that moving the robot arm cause an immediate FE and the enable is turn off in this case
[20:58:06] <nspiel> does a following error kill lcnc or the drive operation/ pwm signal?
[20:58:58] <nspiel> enable in the config or the power button in the axis gui
[20:58:59] <pcw_home> What is does is dependent on the HAL file but normally it will at least turn off the drive enables
[21:00:04] <nspiel> so machine power on
[21:00:11] <nspiel> then try to jog the axis with poiwer off
[21:00:14] <nspiel> then should get FE
[21:00:16] <nspiel> ?
[21:00:24] <pcw_home> You need to verify this (WITH MOTORS DISCONNECTED)
[21:00:28] <pcw_home> Yes
[21:00:36] <nspiel> ok i didnt get one
[21:00:45] <nspiel> i lied
[21:00:46] <nspiel> i got one
[21:00:57] <nspiel> it turned the power off
[21:01:31] <nspiel> i have to imcrement the position 3 times before following error occurs and shuts machine power off
[21:01:43] <pcw_home> check that the drive enables are asserted (low) at power on and de-asserted on a FE
[21:02:20] <nspiel> with dmesg?
[21:07:06] <nspiel> so it is asserted on power and deasserted on an FE
[21:09:44] <nspiel> pcw- what is the next step?
[21:16:50] <nspiel> or anyone- do you think that i am ok to connect the drive power and try to move one axis at a time with my hand on the hardstop power killswitch
[21:28:22] <nspiel> anyone?
[21:36:17] <nspiel> ok i try to move with it
[21:36:21] <nspiel> and it moves the joint
[21:36:28] <nspiel> but immediately results in a following error
[21:36:56] <Tom_itx> is it backwards?
[21:37:12] <nspiel> the motor power?
[21:37:27] <nspiel> the input scale is wrong. would that do it?
[21:38:00] <Tom_itx> the sign?
[21:38:27] <CaptHindsight> "if you have feedback backwards (you have a 50%chance) the axis will runaway the first time you power them up"
[21:39:34] <nspiel> so should i just try to flip the sign in the ini on the input scale and see if it works?
[21:39:51] <nspiel> i assume the FE was from it trying to run away"?
[21:40:51] <Tom_itx> did it try to move in the direction you told it to?
[21:40:56] <Tom_itx> before it faulted
[21:45:10] <nspiel> yeah
[21:45:27] <nspiel> let ,me double check
[21:45:45] <armourer> is kwallace still here ?
[21:45:57] <armourer> kwallace2
[21:45:58] <Tom_itx> if it moved in the right direction, reverse the encoder wires
[21:46:09] <nspiel> it moved in the wrong direction
[21:46:12] <nspiel> its the opposite
[21:46:20] <nspiel> so should i inverse the sign on the enoder scaling?
[21:46:23] <Tom_itx> change the sign then and try it again
[21:46:43] <nspiel> the sign on the input scale?
[21:46:52] <Tom_itx> i would
[21:47:07] <Tom_itx> if it's turning backwards
[21:47:13] <nspiel> oh should i switch the leads on the pwm output?
[21:47:34] <nspiel> it would accomplish the same thing right?\
[21:47:51] <Tom_itx> just reverse the sign
[21:47:58] <Tom_itx> since it moved in the wrong direction
[21:48:43] <Tom_itx> you may also have to reverse the encoders since they're not in sync with the motor direction
[21:49:00] <Tom_itx> the motor goes left the encoder says it's going right
[21:49:06] <Tom_itx> ?
[21:49:52] <nspiel> yeah
[21:49:55] <nspiel> so now it works
[21:50:06] <nspiel> but i hit the increase too many times and then it had a FE
[21:50:21] <armourer> hhmm I hope Tom has as much patience when I sart asking similar questions
[21:51:23] <nspiel> yeah im pretty slow at this stuff and the people here are so great
[21:51:39] <Tom_itx> slow is better than getting hurt or such
[21:51:42] <armourer> they are, I agree
[21:52:48] <armourer> kwallace2 found a link for me this morning and as Im now at the clients I dont have it with me
[21:53:05] <armourer> it has to do with 1m2000f stepper drive boards
[21:53:11] <Tom_itx> did he post it here?
[21:53:12] <armourer> anybody here familiar with it ?
[21:53:18] <nspiel> so now it looks like the two joints are able to move
[21:53:25] <nspiel> in very slow increments though
[21:53:25] <kwallace2> I'll look
[21:53:34] <nspiel> the z made a weird noise and i just turned everything off
[21:53:46] <armourer> kwallace this is actually joebog here
[21:53:52] <armourer> Im on clients machine
[21:54:16] <armourer> hence armourer = the gunsmith Im doing work for
[21:54:41] <nspiel> ok the z axis is really weird
[21:54:46] <nspiel> it made a weird noise
[21:54:51] <nspiel> both the joints are workign though
[21:55:13] <Tom_itx> maybe the scale is way off on z
[21:55:15] <kwallace2> http://motion.schneider-electric.com/downloads/datasheets/im483.pdf
[21:55:49] <kwallace2> http://motion.schneider-electric.com/products/im483.html
[21:55:53] <armourer> I definately owe you a cold drink of your choice :)\
[21:55:58] <armourer> thanks again
[21:56:12] <kwallace2> No problem.
[21:58:20] <armourer> kwallace do you remember the addy for the nwhole user manual ?
[21:59:22] <kwallace2> Oops, maybe this? http://motion.schneider-electric.com/downloads/manuals/im483.pdf
[21:59:47] <armourer> its my connection sorry
[22:00:27] <armourer> yay I have it thanks :)
[22:00:40] <nspiel> is there a way to move large amounts at a time
[22:00:45] <nspiel> and disable the Z
[22:01:25] <kwallace2> I found a pair of IM483 drives on eBay and accidentally bought them.
[22:01:49] <kwallace2> :)
[22:04:25] <nspiel> is there a way to move large amounts at a time
[22:06:26] <CaptHindsight> jog in continuous mode
[22:06:43] <nspiel> do u just hold down the +
[22:06:49] <nspiel> or do u have to keep on clicking
[22:06:52] <CaptHindsight> yes or -
[22:07:21] <nspiel> hold down or keep clicking?
[22:07:27] <CaptHindsight> hold down
[22:07:29] <armourer> how much ? kwallace
[22:08:30] <nspiel> it made a weird noise when holding it down
[22:08:35] <nspiel> and was oscillating alot
[22:08:42] <nspiel> the whole table was shaking my floor
[22:08:58] <CaptHindsight> jogging z?
[22:09:23] <nspiel> no both of the joints
[22:09:25] <CaptHindsight> what axis were you jogging?
[22:09:28] <nspiel> it makes a bad noise
[22:09:37] <nspiel> i can move a little at a time
[22:09:42] <nspiel> one button press at a time
[22:09:47] <nspiel> but when holding down it freaks out
[22:10:27] <Tom_itx> CaptHindsight, do you adjust the pwm frequency on those like you do the step pulse on steppers?
[22:11:53] <CaptHindsight> try changing the jogging speed
[22:12:37] <Tom_itx> something about the inductance
[22:12:45] <Tom_itx> i'm not that savvy with it
[22:12:56] <nspiel> why would it be the inductance
[22:13:08] <Tom_itx> i know if you get the frequency too high it can/will run hot
[22:13:19] <CaptHindsight> Tom_itx: the servo amps we use have tons of settings for inductance, slew, etc etc
[22:13:28] <Tom_itx> ok
[22:13:53] <Tom_itx> sounds like he's on the way but needs quite a bit of tuning
[22:14:09] <Tom_itx> not sure about z
[22:14:22] <CaptHindsight> yeah, usually PID is set 1, 0, 0 as a starting point
[22:14:42] <nspiel> similar thing happened with the z as with what is happened with the joints now. maybe i am moving too fast
[22:14:52] <Tom_itx> i've tuned PID before but not with linuxcnc
[22:14:57] <Tom_itx> it can be a bit tricky
[22:15:20] <Tom_itx> nspiel start working with your tuning
[22:15:45] <nspiel> as opposed to with the speed?
[22:16:56] <Tom_itx> that is my non expert opinion
[22:16:58] <CaptHindsight> there will be an upper limit to the speed, but for noiw you can try slowing it down just to see what's happening
[22:17:33] <nspiel> so i turned the speed way down and now when i hold down + the motor just tries to move and i can feel it with my hand trying to move but the joint doesnt move
[22:17:47] <Tom_itx> work on getting it to move where you tell it with no overshoot etc
[22:19:12] <nspiel> so would the next step be to use the PID tuning stuff
[22:19:18] <nspiel> the feed slow down doesnt seem to help
[22:20:03] <Tom_itx> does it move the distance you give it?
[22:21:45] <nspiel> no
[22:22:07] <Tom_itx> get your scale worked out so it does
[22:22:20] <nspiel> it just oscillates or tries to move but doesnt
[22:23:03] <Tom_itx> when P overshoots it will oscillate
[22:23:08] <CaptHindsight> you know what your scale should be now since you read the counts
[22:23:28] <nspiel> but when i do that its way off
[22:23:40] <nspiel> so i got 1800 per 180 degrees
[22:23:52] <nspiel> so input scale should be 10
[22:24:09] <nspiel> and when i do that it thinks it moves orders of magnitude more than it does
[22:27:13] <CaptHindsight> try P = 0.5
[22:27:22] <CaptHindsight> and jog it
[22:27:42] <nspiel> ohhhh p=100 right now in my ini
[22:28:34] <CaptHindsight> just out of curiosity pastebin your .ini
[22:28:51] <nspiel> kk
[22:30:12] <Tom_itx> i think P is way too high
[22:30:22] <Tom_itx> but i've never tuned with lcnc either...
[22:30:44] <Tom_itx> if it never reaches setpoint, P is low
[22:30:50] <Tom_itx> if it oscillates it's too high
[22:31:32] <Tom_itx> but you've got alot of things going on there
[22:33:56] <CaptHindsight> Tom_itx: http://www.parkermotion.com/manuals/aries/aries_ug_revf.pdf Chapter 6 list all the setting for the amp
[22:34:16] <CaptHindsight> we have used lots of these with Linuxcnc
[22:35:22] <nspiel> http://pastebin.com/13p8uAey
[22:35:30] <CaptHindsight> the nice thing about matched servo motors and amps is that they come with pretty darn close default settings
[22:36:09] <CaptHindsight> I've tuned 3 axis servo setups easily under an hour
[22:37:01] <nspiel> that must be nice. do either of you guys know where that one lcnc link is that has the rough pid tuning parameters- like increase p until it starts to oscillate slowly dial in i etc...
[22:37:36] <CaptHindsight> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?PWM_Servo_Amplifiers
[22:38:58] <nspiel> capt what should i start p out as? did you see my ini?
[22:39:20] <CaptHindsight> I usually use P = 1
[22:40:33] <nspiel> it will just never reach if p is too low right?
[22:40:41] <CaptHindsight> yes
[22:41:25] <CaptHindsight> I've never been out of the single digits for any PID value
[22:42:29] <CaptHindsight> then again I'm using matching AC servos and amps with factory settings
[23:05:05] <nspiel> oh ok
[23:06:47] <nspiel> i got a following error
[23:06:51] <nspiel> immediately
[23:06:56] <nspiel> with p=1
[23:16:27] <nspiel> capt what is the proper way to increase p
[23:16:32] <nspiel> just until oscillation?
[23:27:35] <Jymmm> pcw_home: I got the chargers in
[23:30:46] <nspiel> pcw_home do u have advice on my pid tuning
[23:42:29] <CaptHindsight> nspiel: since 100 was way too high and 1 is too low, try 50, then either 25 or 75 based on results
[23:48:12] <nspiel> k i will do that now
[23:53:47] <nspiel> so with p at 50 it jogs but does not also oscillates