#linuxcnc | Logs for 2013-08-23

[00:00:41] <nspiel> hi sorry my internet just died
[00:00:45] <nspiel> what was the pinout?
[00:04:06] <nspiel> does anyone know how to access the webchat irc?
[00:04:13] <nspiel> i just want to see the past five or so messages
[00:09:25] <nspiel> tjtr33 i am looking now
[00:10:08] <Meduza> nspiel: what messages do you want to look at?
[00:10:33] <nspiel> thanks meduza, I found it
[00:11:57] <Meduza> oki
[00:14:38] <nspiel> tjtr33 my robot is a seiko epson ssr h414
[00:18:21] <nspiel> tjtr33 the motor power cable is definately the same
[00:18:24] <nspiel> i have that one
[00:34:49] <tjtr33> nspiel i cant find reason to think the controls are the same , sorry http://www.epson.jp/ms/1983_5.htm
[00:39:40] <nspiel> i dont think the controls are the same
[00:40:34] <nspiel> but i cant find any other documentation on it
[02:03:31] <DJ9DJ> moin
[03:25:14] <false> nspiel: Maybe contact the guys @ www.eg.bucknell.edu , they have one, maybe the also have the manual and/or some insights
[03:27:06] <Loetmichel> mornin'
[03:27:24] <false> good morning
[03:27:44] <tjtr33> holy crap 3am again! bye bye
[03:28:22] <Loetmichel> <- 10:12 over here... just have my first coffee... not really awake ;-)
[03:29:41] <false> Jep same time here, but I've been up a little longer
[03:30:24] <false> Loetmichel: you know anything about mesa hardware?
[03:32:13] <Loetmichel> sorry. i am still using lpt port(s)
[03:32:47] <kengu> morgning
[03:32:53] <false> Morning!
[03:32:55] <kengu> or likes
[03:33:42] <false> I always liked what pete tong said about that: "Good morning, or good evening... depending on which way up you are" :P
[03:33:57] <Loetmichel> hrhr
[03:34:38] <false> kengu, you into mesa stuff?
[03:37:14] <archivist> Its all gone a bit Pete Tong :)
[03:42:19] <Loetmichel> i HAVE to get these cup for work... -> http://de.webfail.com/4d3e0d65b87
[03:42:20] <Loetmichel> ;-)
[03:42:42] <Loetmichel> it describes my morning perfectly ;-)
[03:43:11] <kengu> false: not yet.. might end up getting a bunch of those for the plama
[03:44:06] <kengu> i just have not figured out yet what hardware to use. I was planinng on using lpt-port but it is a bit tight on the io and adding additional lpt is not that .. well.. i might as well go for something else
[03:47:12] <Loetmichel> false: as i understand it mesa is handy when it comes to counting/make a control loop ON the card instead of in the computer
[03:47:33] <Loetmichel> as there are mesa cards with DSPs on it.
[03:47:33] <kengu> for the laser i used lpt and some breakout board
[03:48:02] <Loetmichel> for anything a pc CPU can shoulder a "normal" IO-card would be sufficient
[03:48:12] <Loetmichel> or some LPT cards
[03:48:40] <Loetmichel> so i didnt had the urge to buy nmesa cards
[03:49:04] <Loetmichel> because i am working with steppers most of the time, so no need to do work on the card
[03:49:41] <Loetmichel> and the little dc servos i am trying to get going will have a driver with step/dir inputs, so like steppers
[03:50:26] <xyzee> Can somebody please point me to a wiring diagram to set up home switches.
[03:52:25] <kengu> i am sort of thinking of getting the "non critical" io on some usb-connected io board. as in emergency stop or likes. as it is not that much of clock related thing
[03:52:39] <kengu> and then put the rest on lpt
[03:58:38] <false> Sounds like a plan
[07:27:40] <Tom_itx> kengu, you consider Estop non critical?
[08:20:31] <jthornton> dang copy and paste gave me funny stuff that drove me mad trying to find it
[08:22:00] <jthornton> ['M6 \xc3\x97 1'] should have been ['M6 x 1']
[08:25:09] <Jymmm> unicode
[08:26:53] <Jymmm> jthornton: were you playing with python?
[08:31:40] <jthornton> python sqlite
[08:32:15] <jthornton> lol, when I copied and pasted the metric taps from a web page to my spread sheet it used a funny x
[08:32:43] <jthornton> I finally noticed the x was floating above the rest of the text
[10:31:06] <false> Hey guys, got the following error/tuning problem figured out. It was oscillation coming from the 7i37 output which I use for enabling the drives. Because my driver has a common ground for all inputs including the enable (yes I know, fanuc what were you thinking!?), the oscillation propagated to the analog in and the tacho in. Putting a relay on the 7i37 output to enable the drive solved it.
[10:31:06] <false> Got the x axis tuned, but I have kind of a strange problem, to me at least. When moving in the X+ direction the axis stops within 0.001mm of the commanded position, but when moving in the X- direction it consitently stops 0.01mm short of the commanded position. What could be causing this, is it the drive responding differently to the command voltage when it's negative vs positive? And shouldn't
[10:31:06] <false> the PID loop try to correct for the last 0.01mm? Encoders are mounted on the servo shaft.
[10:40:31] <cradek> did you try adjusting the balance knob?
[10:42:55] <false> You mean on the drive right>
[10:46:59] <false> The problem is that I don't have any documentation for these, they are very old fanuc velocity drives, I tried fanuc but they haven't responded yet. There are 3 pots with clear meaning: Offset, Dither and Gain (RV1-RV3). There is one other that's marked RV4 next to those three, which according to the scale is right in the middle off its range, could this be the balance potmeter?
[10:51:12] <false> RV4 is tacho offset
[11:00:58] <false> But shouldn't the pid loop increase the voltage on the analog in to correct for this?
[11:24:42] <skunkworks> false, very basic pid tuner here... If there is no I (wind up) and the tuning is such - if it stops short there is nothing to 'push' it the rest of the way.
[11:25:41] <cradek> the one marked offset is the one I'm talking about
[11:30:36] <cradek> oh you have separate command and feedback offset, interesting
[11:31:04] <cradek> since those are summed I don't know why you need them both separately, so there must be something I don't know
[11:37:28] <false> I think RV4 is to compensate for variations in the circuit, the scale is 6V/1000RPM for the tacho, so thats well into the millivolts range for lower rpms, the board is from the 70's.
[11:38:23] <false> I adjusted the offset pot for 0 drift with the drives and 7i33 enabled and the pid loop disabled.
[11:40:38] <false> Watching the encoder count from halshow (8000ppr after 4x counting) I let it set for a couple of minutes to see if it would drift, it didn't
[11:43:55] <false> If I look at halscope I can see the pid loop correcting at the end of the move but than it goes flat
[11:44:25] <cradek> wonder if RV4 is tach scaling, not tach offset
[11:46:52] <false> I read somewhere that I shouldn't touch the RV4 because it was factory set
[11:47:04] <false> I'll try to find that post
[11:59:45] <pcw_home> were you able to increase the P gain?
[12:02:20] <IchGuckLive> hi all B)
[12:04:45] <false> Yes it's at 4.0 now
[12:06:33] <pcw_home> is that as high as it can go?
[12:08:08] <Jymmm> pcw_home: Hey
[12:09:27] <pcw_home> what is the pwm scale?
[12:09:44] <false> Yes, adjust any higher generates oscillations, currently I still have oscillations of about 0.01mm in cruise @ 15mm/min this is centered around 0 ferror, adjusting P down does not make a difference for those
[12:10:01] <toxx> Hi, can I get the attachments from http://www.linuxcnc.org/index.php/english/forum/39-pncconf/21670-5i25-firmware-xml-files-for-pncconf from any other place? Registration doesn't work.
[12:10:28] <cradek> can you elaborate on how it doesn't work?
[12:11:08] <toxx> I don't get any email
[12:11:28] <false> -142.8571, I read a post from you where you stated I would be easier to scale it so that 10V output would equal full output in mm/s
[12:11:54] <cradek> ok maybe someone here can help with that. until we get our ducks in a row and update our packages, you can always get firmwares directly from mesa
[12:12:44] <jthornton> toxx, what fails with registration?
[12:12:46] <cradek> I'd say your rapid speed should happen at around 9v, you don't ever want to saturate
[12:13:18] <false> rapid speed is @ 6.7volts
[12:13:25] <toxx> ok, i just don't know what kind of files I need, i downloaded the mesa files
[12:13:43] <false> input scale for the drive is 7V/1000RPM
[12:14:02] <toxx> there are .bit .xml and .pin files
[12:14:23] <false> Original control output in rapids was 6.7Volt so I took that as max ouput
[12:14:41] <andypugh> Jymmm: man exports
[12:14:56] <false> Which brings it to about 95 as pwm scale
[12:15:11] <toxx> jthornton: i dont
[12:15:11] <Jymmm> andypugh: in ref to???
[12:15:17] <andypugh> toxx: You need the .bit file to download to the Mesa card
[12:15:20] <toxx> jthornton: i dont get any email
[12:15:31] <jthornton> toxx, you have been enabled
[12:15:34] <andypugh> Jymmm: Before I went off in a huff last night you asked where NFS was in OSX
[12:15:53] <Jymmm> andypugh: Ah, did you get my memo?
[12:15:57] <andypugh> toxx: Unless it is a 5i25, then you don't need to.
[12:16:00] <toxx> so the .bit files have to be at /lib/firmware/hostmot2?
[12:16:15] <false> Correction 95.71429 max output, -142.8571 as pwm scale that is
[12:16:29] <andypugh> Yes, lib/firmware/<name of card> normally
[12:16:50] <andypugh> Sorry, let me try that again. lib/firmware/hm2/<name of card>
[12:16:56] <toxx> ok, i will try that
[12:17:33] <andypugh> Though anywhere in lib/firmware will work as long as the "firmware= " part of the loadt line points at it.
[12:18:02] <toxx> jthornton: i just tried logging in again, but it doesn't work
[12:18:15] <andypugh> You _should_ be able to get the normal firmwares with sudo apt-get install hostmot2-firmware-<name of card> though.
[12:18:36] <jthornton> I just sent you another conformation email
[12:19:05] <toxx> andypugh: ok, I'll try that, i just need it for 5i25 with pncconf
[12:19:23] <jthornton> you do have a funny name...
[12:19:42] <andypugh> Ah, in that case you don't need the bit-file at all....
[12:20:14] <andypugh> You only need the XML file for PNCConf (and PNCConf is the only thing that uses the XML file)
[12:21:17] <false> andypugh: got your nfs working the way you like?
[12:21:25] <toxx> jthornton: i do not get any mail from you, I looked in the spamfile - nothing
[12:22:01] <toxx> andypugh: where do I have to put the xml file?
[12:22:06] <andypugh> false: Ah, no, it turned out to be a complete fluke that it worked when it did, it never re-mounted or auto-mounted.
[12:22:46] <andypugh> false: I gave up. I am now looking at nfs-sharing direct from Mac to Linux and ignoring the NAS.
[12:23:06] <toxx> I compiled the sources from git...
[12:23:16] <andypugh> (after two re-installs of different Linux versions from scratch)
[12:23:36] <false> andypugh: you could also setup cifs sharing on the linux box, the mybook does cifs right?
[12:23:54] <andypugh> I got SMB working. It was _horribly_ slow
[12:23:56] <pcw_home> 4 is a quite low P gain if PWM scale is mm/second
[12:25:33] <toxx> btw, can I use the 5i25 rs422 serial port for anything different than controlling mesa-cards?
[12:25:50] <toxx> I would like to controll a VFD
[12:26:14] <jthornton> toxx, check your email again
[12:26:37] <jthornton> and we have built in support for the Automation Direct GS2 VFD via modbus
[12:27:05] <toxx> no mail at all
[12:27:32] <false> pcw_home: I made the following calculations: ballscrew = 6mm/rev, so 10rpm = 1mm/s. 10V/7V = 1.4 > 1.4*1000/10 = 140
[12:27:44] <andypugh> toxx: Do you have spam filters?
[12:27:46] <jthornton> perhaps you entered it wrong as the last one I sent from my computer
[12:28:21] <archivist> not all email is instant
[12:28:38] <false> pcw_home: or am I making a huge thinking error here?
[12:28:40] <toxx> hmm, i don't know modbus.
[12:29:10] <jthornton> you don't need to know anything about modbus to use the gs2 component
[12:29:44] <pcw_home> a P gain of 4 will request a velocity of .04 mm/second at a .01 mm error
[12:30:04] <toxx> well, my provider should filter, but ther's nothing in the spamfile
[12:30:23] <toxx> gs2 component?
[12:30:59] <jthornton> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vC5B_l5HuQQ&feature=c4-overview&list=UUt3eCzdbsQeuCifjsTyvvTg
[12:31:25] <jthornton> it controls the GS2 VFD
[12:31:31] <false> pcw_home: so the axis should be moving, but it is not?
[12:31:36] <pcw_home> This is in the range of one LSB of the analog out so I think the P gain needs to be increased
[12:32:40] <false> pcw_home: if I increase the P to 4.5 the axis starts to oscillate
[12:33:13] <pcw_home> Probably not enough velocity feedback bandwidth
[12:33:27] <andypugh> I need to get brave enough to try rigid tapping, though I have a gearbox between the resolver and the chuck...
[12:34:29] <false> So the output of the 7i33 creating the tacho signal doesn't have enough bandwidth
[12:34:34] <jthornton> how much backlash in the gear box?
[12:34:51] <pcw_home> needs your scalable index logic
[12:35:17] <pcw_home> Not the 7I33, but the thread rate
[12:36:18] <false> The thread is at 200000ns
[12:36:24] <toxx> ok, there seems to be a way. this is whatwe use: http://www.hanning-hew.de/wEnglisch/produkte/antriebstechnik/322_hamotic_varicon_Asynchron-Kompaktantriebe.shtml
[12:36:26] <andypugh> jthornton: Not a huge amount. 5 degrees maybe?
[12:36:46] <jthornton> give it a try in some plastic
[12:36:56] <jthornton> that's what I did at first
[12:37:40] <pcw_home> should be OK at 5 KHz, maybe your velocity loop is not tuned as well as it can be
[12:40:15] <pcw_home> at 5 KHz the loop bandwidth should be around 1.5 KHz which should be fine (the machine bandwidth will be < 100 Hz)
[12:41:24] <false> Well, the following error @ 700mm/m is about 0.02mm while cruising, did you read my post a little further up about it being spot on after X+ and it being of after an X-?
[12:42:00] <toxx> jthornton: ok, i got your testmail now :)
[12:42:30] <pcw_home> I would try tuning the velocity portion to see if you can increase the P gain
[12:42:48] <jthornton> try logging onto the forum again
[12:43:41] <false> pcw_home: going up 0.01 at at time maybe?
[12:43:49] <pcw_home> (tuning consists of adjusting the gain in the tachometer simulation portion)
[12:43:56] <toxx> hmm, that's what I get "Your registration process is not yet complete!"
[12:45:05] <jthornton> one moment
[12:46:47] <pcw_home> if all else fails (and you have FF1 dialed in so there's no large following error during cruise), I would add some I term)
[12:47:53] <false> I will go and try that, thanks again for you help!
[12:48:21] <IchGuckLive> thats why we are here false
[12:48:29] <jthornton> toxx, try now
[12:48:36] <toxx> jthornton: \o/ thanks, i'm logged in :)
[12:49:06] <false> I know, but still
[12:49:18] <jthornton> your internet provider must be blocking emails from linuxcnc.org
[12:49:54] <toxx> yes, seems so.
[12:50:58] <jthornton> you might ask them about that
[12:51:47] <toxx> well, there won't be any support, I think. Just robots.
[12:53:46] <toxx> so, thank's a lot! bye
[13:03:13] <andypugh> false: You don't want to know how easy it just was to nfs-mount a share on my Mac on the Linux machine :-/
[13:05:38] <andypugh> toxx: You don't, technically, need the confirmation email.
[13:06:34] <andypugh> An admin can set you up entirely manually with a password of his choice that you can then change
[13:09:26] <andypugh> Bah! I just made a coffee then found that someone has used up all the milk!
[13:10:12] <andypugh> And by a process of deduction I have figured out that it was me, as nobody else has a key to my house :-)
[13:10:14] <IchGuckLive> shops are open so go and det new one
[13:10:20] <IchGuckLive> get
[13:10:28] <andypugh> brb
[13:19:54] <IchGuckLive> andypugh: its warm here but getting dark fast
[13:20:22] <IchGuckLive> so folks in the US Burningman reno Nevada starts tommarrow morning at 6pm
[13:20:39] <IchGuckLive> tickets are sold out
[13:21:10] <IchGuckLive> no milling mashine on the playa but in the factories of wood construction to the playa
[13:21:11] <cradek> with an unprecedented police presence, I hear
[13:21:22] <IchGuckLive> yes
[13:21:33] <IchGuckLive> roads to the event are in full control
[13:21:47] <IchGuckLive> no one alowed within 60 miles of parking
[13:22:13] <IchGuckLive> as they try to overrcom the traffic brekdown of the last years
[13:22:39] <IchGuckLive> rheno exit is also controled from Homeland security
[13:22:51] <IchGuckLive> as burners are not terrorists i will say
[13:23:05] <IchGuckLive> they are not business man as well
[13:23:13] <IchGuckLive> ok im off
[13:23:16] <IchGuckLive> BY
[13:23:39] <cradek> haha homeland security
[14:17:18] <false> pcw_home: I can get the Pgain up to about 14, the axis will oscillate while jogging but stops doing so right after the jog finishes. Increasing any further makes the axis oscillate after the jog. Does this give you any more clues? FF1 is at 0.25.
[14:17:41] <cradek> a little D might help that
[14:19:54] <false> cradek: pcw_home told me I shouldn't need D on velocity drives, I will add some D but there must be something else right?
[14:20:27] <cradek> I saw him say that, but I have used D in every velocity mode tuning I have ever done
[14:20:34] <false> :P
[14:20:58] <false> ok I'll go and add some, any tips on the amount?
[14:21:18] <cradek> P = 300
[14:21:18] <cradek> I = 0
[14:21:19] <cradek> D = 2
[14:21:19] <cradek> FF1 = 1
[14:21:37] <cradek> this is what I have on my vmc
[14:21:55] <false> so .0067% of P?
[14:22:39] <cradek> the fiddly final tuning is done with the knobs on the amp, gain and offset (set gain so FF1 is exactly 1)
[14:23:03] <cradek> and offset so it doesn't dither
[14:24:21] <cradek> that is with:
[14:24:21] <cradek> MAX_VELOCITY = 7.5
[14:24:21] <cradek> MAX_ACCELERATION = 30
[14:30:26] <skunkworks> cradek could go higher - but then the machine would walk across the floor...
[14:30:48] <false> MAX_ACCELERATION = 100.0, MAX_VELOCITY = 100.0, the original control was quicker but I'll settle for this :P
[14:32:22] <false> cradek: so I should turn the gain on the amp down until FF1 makes the ferror centered around 0? FF is at 0.25 right now
[14:33:20] <false> Well you suggestion for D worked like crazy :D
[14:34:02] <pcw_home> Well D shoul not be needded it the velocity loop is tuned, but that may be fixed or only tunable via potentiometer on the drive
[14:34:50] <cradek> I agree with you but/and I've noticed it always seems to help anyway
[14:36:15] <cradek> skunkworks: yes I had it at v=12.5 a=60 but I didn't like how I felt it in the floor (which is probably not nearly thick enough)
[14:37:35] <pcw_home> You can see the effect of FF1 better when the gain is lower
[14:38:44] <pcw_home> FF1 should be close to one if the PID input is mm and output is mm/S
[14:38:45] <cradek> you will want a lot more accel than 100mm/s2 if you possibly can. that's pretty glacial unless it's an extremely heavy machine
[14:40:04] <pcw_home> Yeah 10 times that should be ~possible
[14:40:49] <false> The machine is capable of 6000mm/m rapids, it reached this speed in about 0.5seconds so yes it could be a lot higher, but I set it lower because I thought it would be easier/safer to tune
[14:40:54] <cradek> you sure don't want to take a full second getting up to speed and a full second stopping again
[14:41:42] <cradek> aha
[14:42:03] <false> It's a Matsuura MC710V
[14:43:08] <CaptHindsight> false: I'm converting one of those myself
[14:43:22] <false> You're kidding me right ?
[14:43:46] <CaptHindsight> it came with a bad Mach3 conversion
[14:44:04] <false> I have no info on it, and matsuura is giving me a 'not home' response
[14:44:18] <CaptHindsight> what info are you looking for?
[14:44:22] <false> Getting the electrics figured out took me a while :P
[14:46:33] <CaptHindsight> anyone need some NMTB-40 end and shell mill holders? I ended up with 7 in various sizes
[14:46:57] <false> Well if you have the electrical schematics I would like a few scans if that's possible, I think I got the gearbox and gearbox figured out but if you have official schematics I would like to have those.
[14:47:09] <false> gearbox and atc that is
[14:48:06] <CaptHindsight> false: I don't. It was already rewired poorly
[14:48:34] <CaptHindsight> it's not too complicated
[14:49:58] <false> No I figured it out, but it's always nice to be able to check your work
[14:50:32] <CaptHindsight> I saw some forum posting about asking for what info you need and getting pdf's of scans
[14:51:12] <CaptHindsight> you'll find out soon enough what you have wired wrong :)
[14:51:22] <false> How come?
[14:53:02] <CaptHindsight> there no close enough when it come to wiring
[14:53:33] <CaptHindsight> except for things like noise and ground loops
[14:54:38] <false> That very true, but I used to be a mechanic at a metal working shop, so I know how to tackle this problem. Sure there will be some mistakes but check check and double check and then some more usually solves that
[14:54:59] <CaptHindsight> Mach3 just makes up position info, it's really terrible
[14:55:32] <false> Yep, seen one in action, if you push it to hard things get nasty without you knowing
[14:57:44] <CaptHindsight> how hot does your spindle get at top speed?
[14:58:40] <false> Depends, how long have you had it there, and do you mean the motor or the actual head near the outputshaft?
[14:59:33] <CaptHindsight> at or near the tool holder?
[15:00:05] <false> You mean where the bearing for the outputshaft would be located?
[15:00:13] <CaptHindsight> I still have to drop a sensor in the oil
[15:01:17] <false> I've had it at 4000 rpm for about 30minutes, I was only hand warm.
[15:01:48] <CaptHindsight> tool holders come out too hot to touch on the pull stud side at 6K rpm
[15:02:48] <false> Mine only goes up to 4000rpm at the outputshaft, at least thats the max output of the old control. This does give 10V on the drives input so I probably have a differnt gearbox
[15:03:09] <CaptHindsight> it has the air/water cooling hookup, but I haven't used it yet, looks like it will be a must
[15:03:56] <false> Are the bearings ok?
[15:04:16] <CaptHindsight> they make a bit of noise under load
[15:04:43] <false> Whining?
[15:04:43] <CaptHindsight> I'll pull it apart sometime this fall
[15:05:06] <CaptHindsight> more gear or grinding noise
[15:05:34] <CaptHindsight> the spindle oil came out clear
[15:06:19] <false> Better take it apart sooner than later, gearboxes/bearings have the nasty tendancy to fail at exactly the wrong moment i.e. at max speed
[15:06:20] <CaptHindsight> but only noisy under load when cutting
[15:06:41] <false> If you mill downhill or uphill does the sound disappear?
[15:07:07] <CaptHindsight> no, it's consistent in any direction
[15:08:53] <false> Well if there were absolutely no iron particles in the oil it kind of has to be a bearing right? Would also explain hot toolholders better.
[15:09:30] <CaptHindsight> what it looks like
[15:10:13] <archivist> I had the nuts on the spindle come loose ones, had noisy cuts
[15:10:20] <archivist> once
[15:10:54] <false> Bdw, just checked, my gearbox does have a heat exchanger emersed in the oil at the back of the gearbox, it's just not connected
[15:12:01] <false> archivist: sounds painfull if your in the way :P
[15:12:24] <false> anyway, have to get to tuning again, see you later
[15:14:17] <archivist> the endfloat and therefore noise level increased, soon noticed and adjusted
[15:15:09] <CaptHindsight> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvd_0Hmt3fM&feature=youtu.be this is how I got it
[15:15:10] <Tecan> (rvd_0Hmt3fM) "Matsuura MC710V Retrofit" by "Andrew Scalzo" is "Tech" - Length: 0:07:14
[15:21:21] <false> That doesn't look to bad, but that's the case most of the time, it's when you start redoing it you see how bad it really is.
[15:21:42] <false> The machine itself does look like it was never used, they repainted it right?
[15:21:53] <CaptHindsight> original paint
[15:21:57] <false> Damn
[15:22:01] <false> School?
[15:22:28] <CaptHindsight> don't know, they guy I got it from started on the conversion and gave up
[15:22:58] <false> Are the grinding marks on the gangways still visible?
[15:23:18] <CaptHindsight> the price was low and he delivered to my door for only $200 more from 70 miles away
[15:23:29] <false> What!?
[15:23:44] <andypugh> Why did he give up?
[15:23:47] <false> Can I ask what you paid for it?
[15:25:14] <CaptHindsight> ~$3k, he already sank >$3k in new electronics and he was just over his head, he even added an Allen Bradly Panel View and PLC
[15:26:06] <false> Man you got lucky there, we paid 3250 euros for a machine that doesnt even come close to what you have there.
[15:26:15] <CaptHindsight> nobody wanted it since it was a partial conversion and he just wanted out of the project
[15:26:29] <false> And we had to pay another 1000 euros in transport
[15:26:39] <false> For the same distance :(
[15:27:35] <false> But considering the prices over here we got lucky to, these machines normally sell for about 4000-5000 over here (netherlands)
[15:27:40] <CaptHindsight> I just had to unload it. Took about 10 minutes using a 40 ton crane
[15:28:30] <false> And I think the one like yours would cost upwards of 10000 considering the condition its in
[15:29:07] <CaptHindsight> I'll finish the Linuxcnc conversion and either rebuild the spindle or upgrade it to something 10K rpm
[15:29:38] <kengu> Tom_itx: i consider it not critical as in it has to happen on exact time..what are those on processors.. cycles what ever. it will still happen in the same split second but in computer time there might be something else going on
[15:30:20] <CaptHindsight> and I wish the X axis was 2 inches longer
[15:30:39] <false> Why?
[15:30:50] <false> You always want it to be just that little bit longers
[15:30:54] <false> -s
[15:31:09] <CaptHindsight> the current parts are 32"
[15:31:21] <false> If you got 1000mm travese you would want 1050mm :P
[15:31:34] <false> Ah, I see
[15:31:45] <false> How far along are you?
[15:32:17] <CaptHindsight> I'm just running it with Mach right now until I have time
[15:32:38] <false> Are you going to reuse the orignal drives?
[15:32:54] <CaptHindsight> he rebuilt the drives and ungraded the encoders
[15:33:08] <CaptHindsight> upgraded heh
[15:33:09] <false> A nice
[15:33:44] <CaptHindsight> he wired the ATC to the PLC but it's not currently functional
[15:33:49] <false> :P
[15:34:45] <CaptHindsight> the PLC programming is also nit well thought out, if you kill the PC during E-stop the spindle and coolant start up
[15:35:03] <CaptHindsight> so it's pretty dangerous right now
[15:35:15] <false> That's kind of not what you would want to happen
[15:35:29] <false> Took me a while to figure out the gearbox has only 2 valves and just closes/opens them according to the position switches
[15:36:35] <false> I was looking everywhere for the 3rd one, doesn't help that I am alone so shorting a relay while looking at it was kind of impossible
[15:37:13] <CaptHindsight> try a webcam on a goose neck
[15:37:42] <false> That's a good idea, I'll keep that in mind
[15:38:14] <CaptHindsight> I'm always on the lookout for CNC machines with dead/bad controls
[15:38:51] <false> I'm actually converting this for my own bussines
[15:39:13] <false> I have a prototyping company so a cnc is a big plus
[15:39:14] <CaptHindsight> you can find deals like these a few times a year, even more if you don't mind trucking >1K miles
[15:39:41] <false> Trucking in europe is kind of expensive undertaking :P
[15:40:02] <CaptHindsight> most shops only want machines with familiar controls
[15:40:47] <CaptHindsight> so they either repair old Fanuc or similar or it sits dead until they need the floor space
[15:41:13] <CaptHindsight> then they just want it gone for ore than a scraper will offer them
[15:41:17] <false> Yep I worked in a metal working shop for a while, sounds about right
[15:41:53] <false> I need to get back to my tuning, for real this time
[15:41:58] <false> see you later
[15:42:30] <CaptHindsight> heh, no more distractions from me :)
[16:05:03] <false> CaptHindsight: What kind of following error would I be expecting at 1000mm/s
[16:06:58] <cradek> a dozen encoder counts or less
[16:08:03] <cradek> the only places you should have any significant untunable ferror is at velocity discontinuity (high jerk points)
[16:08:14] <false> Right now I'm at 0.001 when cruising :D
[16:08:28] <false> thats peak peak
[16:08:30] <cradek> at a steady 1000mm/s I'd expect only a few encoder counts of ferror, like 3-4
[16:08:42] <cradek> yep good
[16:11:32] <false> I only have a little undershoot at te beginning about 0.01mm for 0.1 seconds, that gets overcompensated en overshoots by 0.05mm < this line goes straight down, and then corrects to ferror=0.001 in 0.5 seconds. Does that sound about right?
[16:11:48] <cradek> can you share the plot?
[16:12:12] <false> I don't have internet on that pc right now, hold on
[16:16:54] <false> http://tinypic.com/r/ac8ozk/5
[16:17:31] <cradek> ooh I don't like that
[16:17:43] <false> I thought so :P
[16:17:53] <false> didn't look right
[16:17:59] <false> what do you suggest?
[16:18:06] <cradek> that's only 18mm/s? what's the accel?
[16:19:17] <cradek> is something saturating? max pwm output maybe?
[16:19:53] <false> accel is at 500.0, forgot to increase that one
[16:20:25] <false> 1000.0 should do no?
[16:20:41] <cradek> something's going wrong at 14mm/s velocity and it stops accelerating properly
[16:21:01] <cradek> I don't know what's wrong but something is :-/
[16:21:56] <cradek> 500mm/s2 accel should be fine, maybe it can't even quite do that? I'm not sure what's going on.
[16:23:12] <cradek> what's it sound and feel like? seeing this plot I'd expect to hear some kind of banging or something
[16:23:13] <false> Could be, but the old control accelerated to 6000mm/m in a split second
[16:23:34] <cradek> well something is saturating here, or otherwise going wrong
[16:23:59] <cradek> maybe you should plot the pid output
[16:24:50] <cradek> it takes half a second to settle! that's totally wrong.
[16:25:07] <false> Yeah that's what I thought
[16:25:09] <false> I'll go and do that
[16:25:26] <cradek> check your pid output, pwm output, dac output for saturation
[16:25:54] <cradek> ooh weekend is starting. I'm off, hope you figure it out.
[16:26:43] <false> Me too, thanks!
[16:34:40] <andypugh> Tomorrow I may start machining myself a new spine.
[16:34:49] <andypugh> This one hurts.
[16:45:13] <andypugh> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-23802777
[16:45:48] <andypugh> That's on the road outside my parent's house. In fact my dad saw it in their garden but failed to catch it.
[16:51:05] <false> Heheh, sounds like fun
[16:52:33] <andypugh> 70-year old man v Wallaby, my money would always be on the marsupial.
[16:57:53] <DJ9DJ> gn8
[17:44:38] <andypugh> I am not sure I can type any command without a reflexive "sudo" nowadays.
[17:44:44] <andypugh> halrun
[17:44:57] <andypugh> Doh! Well, that proves me wrong.
[17:45:45] <Tom_itx> i do a sudo su upon opening the terminal then don't worry with it
[17:48:24] <andypugh> I don't trust me
[17:52:44] <Tom_itx> wallabys must be uncommon there
[17:52:46] <Tom_itx> ?
[17:53:06] <Tom_itx> we've got a couple in our zoo but that's about it
[17:53:20] <andypugh> They are not native, no.
[17:54:06] <andypugh> though: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1198642/Return-wallabies-Pictures-prove-Aussie-marsupials-hopped-oblivion--Peak-District.html
[19:41:16] <Aero-Tec> anyone got ideas on how to zero a diamond shaped tool that is pointing straight?
[19:41:52] <Aero-Tec> not sure how to zero the Z
[19:42:03] <Aero-Tec> X is no problem
[19:42:37] <NickParker> what do you mean by zero? Get it on the surface of the material?
[19:42:41] <Aero-Tec> working on zeroing all my tooling
[19:42:59] <NickParker> Oh nvm i get it
[19:42:59] <Aero-Tec> I am setting up the offsets
[19:43:13] <Aero-Tec> it is a lathe
[19:43:55] <toastydeath> Aero-Tec, do you have a plunge bar
[19:43:58] <toastydeath> like a cutoff tool
[19:44:17] <Aero-Tec> the diamond point is tapered on both sides
[19:44:31] <toastydeath> ironically does not answer the question
[19:44:33] <Aero-Tec> I have a cutt off tool yes
[19:44:39] <Aero-Tec> several of them
[19:44:49] <toastydeath> okay, so what you're going to do is do a few plunge cuts
[19:45:15] <Aero-Tec> with the cut off?
[19:45:29] <toastydeath> get like a half inch wide of material plunged out
[19:45:31] <toastydeath> yes
[19:45:35] <toastydeath> not cut off, but plunged out
[19:45:39] <toastydeath> so you have sharp corners
[19:45:52] <Aero-Tec> do I leave space between the plunge cuts?
[19:45:55] <toastydeath> no
[19:46:02] <toastydeath> you are cutting a 1/2" wide channel with sharp corners
[19:46:24] <toastydeath> use your calipers and find the center of this channel
[19:46:42] <toastydeath> in relation to the bar, which you face off at zero
[19:46:53] <toastydeath> so now you know exactly where the center of this channel is
[19:47:27] <toastydeath> now you bring your diamond tool in, and you touch the sides of the tool (the tapered sides) to the corners of that channel
[19:47:30] <Aero-Tec> ok and zero on the point
[19:47:31] <toastydeath> note the locations on the readout
[19:47:45] <toastydeath> now find the center of the two touchoff points
[19:47:55] <toastydeath> jog the tool to that location, and trigger the tool touch
[19:48:05] <Aero-Tec> cool
[19:48:13] <Aero-Tec> thanks, good idea
[19:48:36] <toastydeath> it's a practice that's used a LOT
[19:48:46] <toastydeath> for all kinds of weird shit, like finding the centerline of holes VERY accurately
[20:39:51] <nspiel> i am having problems wiring my robot arm
[20:40:55] <andypugh> Working out what wire is what, or something else?
[20:44:17] <nspiel> sort of yes
[20:44:28] <nspiel> so i know all 8 or so pins coming out the motor
[20:44:34] <nspiel> for encoder power ground signals etc
[20:45:15] <nspiel> but those female headers go from the motor into breakout boards in the robot and then end up in a 50 pin ribbon cable out the back of the robot composed of all the signals grounds etc
[20:45:28] <nspiel> im trying to find which wires are which on the 50 pin flat ribbon
[20:46:46] <andypugh> You can't buzz them through with a multimeter?
[20:46:53] <nspiel> thats what ive been doing
[20:47:02] <nspiel> ive gotten most of them that way but i ran into a problem
[20:47:16] <nspiel> so there is ground and power on the motor female pin
[20:47:37] <nspiel> i was able to get feedback with this ground and power as well as signal a and b with an arduino plugged into the encoder of the motor
[20:48:05] <nspiel> but when i buzzed them through to trace the ground and power back to the 50 pin flat ribbon they buzz out the same wires on the bottom
[20:48:28] <nspiel> even if i reverse the leads of the multimeter if it were to be some diode issue
[20:48:34] <RyanS> What sort of robot arm? Industrial, scratch build?
[20:49:16] <nspiel> industrial scara robot arm
[20:49:33] <RyanS> cool
[20:49:55] <andypugh> It's not unlikely that half the wires on the ribbon are grounds.
[20:50:19] <nspiel> thats what i was thinking but the +5v also buzzes the same output wires as the ground
[20:50:35] <nspiel> but when i buzz the 5v and ground on the breakout board they are not connected
[20:52:19] <andypugh> Another general thing to bear in mind, normally associated with buying a classic motorcycle in a a number of crates "Nobody ever dismantles a working motorcycle". Don't assume that the machine was thrown out and sold to you because it worked perfectly.
[20:53:08] <nspiel> supposedly it was working. the guy gave it to me because he had didnt have space for it. everything so far that i have unwired and rewired this guy has done right so far
[20:54:51] <andypugh> Is this with the wires disconnected at both ends, or with them still connected to "stuff"?
[20:55:19] <nspiel> disconnected at both ends
[20:55:39] <nspiel> no motor connection to the breakout just probing the pins and with nothing attached to flat ribbon
[20:56:16] <andypugh> And you can see that the wires all the way through and there is no evidence of anything in the middle?
[20:56:32] <nspiel> pretty much yes
[20:56:42] <nspiel> the wires go all he way through for motor power
[20:56:45] <nspiel> i already wired that part
[20:58:55] <archivist> I expect multiple grounds in a ribbon, it helps reduce cross talk in the cable
[20:59:38] <nspiel> that is what i thought as well. but when i probe it i get +5v on about half of the ribbon
[21:00:11] <archivist> I have seen multiple power too
[21:01:41] <archivist> but would expect a lower qty power than ground wires
[21:04:47] <nspiel> yep
[21:04:48] <archivist> or equal number
[21:05:05] <nspiel> something weird is going on
[21:05:20] <nspiel> the outputs of power and ground go to the same wires
[21:05:35] <nspiel> but when i probe across them on the breakout board they are not connected
[21:06:00] <andypugh> It's very easy to miss-assemble a ribbon connector.
[21:06:38] <archivist> or easy to fool one self if something is plugged in the other end
[21:07:03] <andypugh> So I can imagine that you might have a connector contact that shorts a wire, but then it would also have to contact both of them.
[21:07:53] <archivist> are the encoders connected during your testing the connections
[21:07:57] <nspiel> no
[21:10:21] <nspiel> another option that will get it working but isnt great is to just tap the female headers by making my own custom male headers that will go to the mesa boards
[21:16:17] <Aero-Tec> ok things are going well, but now need to zero my drilling tool holder
[21:16:28] <Aero-Tec> anyone got some ideas?
[21:22:13] <nspiel> does anyone have any other ideas
[21:25:40] <Aero-Tec> I see your working on a robot arm
[21:25:49] <nspiel> yep
[21:25:50] <Aero-Tec> I would like to make a few of them
[21:25:57] <Aero-Tec> do you have any pix?
[21:26:05] <nspiel> nope
[21:26:16] <nspiel> sry
[21:26:23] <Aero-Tec> to bad, would love to see it
[21:26:32] <Aero-Tec> diy?
[21:27:03] <nspiel> its a repurposed industrial one that was pretty torn apart. im piecing it back/ restoring it and making it cnc
[21:27:11] <nspiel> i would eventually like to make it a cnc edm
[21:27:30] <Aero-Tec> now your talking
[21:27:45] <Aero-Tec> but will it be accurate enough?
[21:28:12] <Aero-Tec> arms are not known for accuracy
[21:28:15] <nspiel> accuracy on the arm is .015mm
[21:28:25] <spack> lol
[21:28:31] <spack> that seems unrealistic
[21:28:43] <Aero-Tec> depending on the arm and how new it is
[21:28:50] <spack> is it an awesome robot?
[21:29:00] <Aero-Tec> I was tempted to say the same
[21:29:16] <nspiel> http://global.epson.com/company/corporate_history/milestone_products/15_ssrh.html
[21:29:26] <Aero-Tec> that is some great specs
[21:29:38] <spack> also doesn't really look like an "arm" per se
[21:29:40] <nspiel> are you being serious or just kidding
[21:30:45] <spack> serious
[21:30:58] <nspiel> not you- aero-tec
[21:31:04] <spack> oh
[21:31:09] <nspiel> but yeah it doesnt really look much like an arm
[21:31:13] <nspiel> but it is a scara
[21:31:18] <spack> i can see that thing being pretty accurate
[21:31:21] <nspiel> which technically is a type of robot arm
[21:31:26] <spack> it's small and the links are short
[21:31:36] <spack> not many articulations, etc
[21:31:51] <spack> not like this thing
[21:31:52] <spack> http://thetechnicgear.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/six-axis-robot-arm.jpeg
[21:31:54] <spack> :)
[21:32:10] <nspiel> lol those are awesome
[21:32:13] <Aero-Tec> now that I see it I can see how they get that
[21:33:04] <nspiel> yeah if only i could wire it haha
[21:35:11] <Aero-Tec> what wires are you stuck on?
[21:35:37] <Aero-Tec> BTW any help with zeroing a drill tool holder?
[21:36:02] <nspiel> there is a 50 pin flat ribbon with all the signals in it coming out the back
[21:36:51] <Aero-Tec> you made sure pin 1 is correct?
[21:37:32] <Aero-Tec> one can plug then if the wrong way
[21:37:48] <Aero-Tec> if they do not have the tad to stop that
[21:38:06] <nspiel> i dont know which signals are where in the 50 pin flat ribbon
[21:38:15] <nspiel> i know which signals are which coming out of the encoders
[21:38:20] <nspiel> but there are break otu boards
[21:38:30] <nspiel> so i have been continuity probing the boards and the flat cable
[21:38:47] <nspiel> but +5v and ground for encoders lead to output the same pins on the ribbon cable
[21:38:53] <Aero-Tec> also did you make sure the ribbon is the right one for the machine?
[21:39:01] <nspiel> yes it is
[21:39:27] <nspiel> it has a special connector into the arm and the ribbon fits it perfectly
[21:40:40] <archivist> I would be looking inside
[21:40:49] <Aero-Tec> sound like there is some thing amiss
[21:40:57] <Aero-Tec> some thing shorted maybe?
[21:41:27] <archivist> likely there is something in between
[21:41:28] <Aero-Tec> some pix would help some
[21:41:32] <nspiel> yeah i tihkn something is weird
[21:41:37] <nspiel> ok i will take some pics
[21:41:43] <nspiel> brb
[21:42:01] <Aero-Tec> back to zeroing a drill tool holder in a lathe
[21:42:05] <Aero-Tec> any help?
[21:42:06] <archivist> is there a board internally with signal buffers
[21:49:02] <nspiel> http://imgur.com/a/Jp92o
[21:49:40] <archivist> also "connected together" by an active internal circuit or filter would also mean > 0 ohms between 0 and 5v, use a better DVM
[21:50:27] <nspiel> hmm i think the one i have is pretty goodf
[21:51:42] <nspiel> http://www.extech.com/instruments/product.asp?catid=49&prodid=297
[21:52:10] <archivist> what is the resistance 0v-5v (both directions)
[21:52:19] <nspiel> .6ohm
[21:54:00] <archivist> if the dvm is good enough you can use it to trace the short
[21:55:31] <archivist> prod on all 5v pins/tracks looking for lower resistance
[21:57:45] <nspiel> u mean on the 5v at the board and on all the outputs
[22:07:11] <nspiel> any other ideas aero-tec
[22:07:23] <archivist> yes, but not sure of that dvms abilities as the lowest range is 200 ohms
[22:07:34] <Aero-Tec> what does the meter say when you short the probes together?
[22:07:57] <archivist> .6 for a guess
[22:08:19] <Aero-Tec> for leads shorted together that is very high
[22:08:49] <archivist> the spec sheet claims a micro ohm yet the display does not have the resolution
[22:09:21] <nspiel> it varies when you short the probe together
[22:10:20] <Aero-Tec> archivist, I was just looking at that and thinking the same thing
[22:10:22] <nspiel> .2 ohms when shorted together
[22:10:41] <archivist> I imagine you have the typical shiny probes, the surface contact is not good
[22:11:19] <archivist> I think you only have .1 ohm resolution
[22:11:25] <Aero-Tec> that sounds better, but still no micro ohm resolution
[22:11:42] <Aero-Tec> looks like
[22:11:52] <nspiel> yeah i have the shiny probes
[22:11:57] <Aero-Tec> and trouble shooting with that is limited
[22:12:08] <nspiel> but i have been using gator clips with them also
[22:12:16] <archivist> just as bad
[22:12:27] <nspiel> ya
[22:12:51] <Aero-Tec> one can track down shorts if the meters is sensitive enough, your is not that great
[22:12:56] <archivist> low resistance measurement is not well served by low cost meters
[22:13:18] <Aero-Tec> lol
[22:13:20] <Aero-Tec> no
[22:13:29] <Aero-Tec> so work with that we have
[22:13:52] <Aero-Tec> so where are you measuring from?
[22:13:55] <archivist> .1 resolution should be ok to get close to the short
[22:14:11] <Aero-Tec> end of cable or some where else?
[22:14:22] <nspiel> im measing from the connector in the first pic
[22:14:45] <nspiel> do u see the male header with 9 pins on the right
[22:14:58] <nspiel> and also measuring from the flat cable
[22:15:07] <archivist> actually all those loose ends on one of the pics, human error and two ends touching ?
[22:15:19] <nspiel> possible
[22:15:31] <nspiel> i just spread them out more thinking that may be it
[22:15:43] <archivist> measure in the box with your cable unplugged
[22:15:58] <nspiel> oh good idea!
[22:16:17] <archivist> if you did the crimp....
[22:17:06] <Aero-Tec> I was going to say the same thing, unplug cable
[22:17:14] <archivist> I have also seen the cut end at the connector have shorts, (blunt scissors)
[22:17:14] <nspiel> ok i will try that now
[22:17:29] <nspiel> ahh ok ill check that too
[22:19:34] <Aero-Tec> also do some measurements using the diode setting of the meter
[22:19:54] <Aero-Tec> junctions can play trick with meters
[22:20:10] <nspiel> thats the same setting on the dvm as the continuity check
[22:20:13] <nspiel> right?
[22:20:20] <nspiel> i did most measurements with that
[22:20:23] <Aero-Tec> more so if a cap is in circuit
[22:21:10] <archivist> one has to wait for the capacitors to charge
[22:22:13] <Aero-Tec> yes the continuity and diode are the same setting
[22:22:51] <Aero-Tec> maybe the continuity setting would give better res for ohms
[22:23:39] <Aero-Tec> so how are the readings?
[22:24:14] <archivist> typing while holding leads is impossible
[22:25:32] <Aero-Tec> for my centering problem I used a drill chuck Moise taper adapter with no chuck on it, wanted the centering hole for that it was made
[22:26:23] <archivist> that sentence needs rephrasing
[22:27:14] <Aero-Tec> stuck a mill centering/edge finder point in the adapter hole and felt for alignment of edge finder
[22:28:57] <Aero-Tec> not the best option but it did sort of work
[22:28:58] <archivist> for low restance measurements, I like a dvm which has a null option to remove the lead resistance
[22:29:15] <Aero-Tec> they are nice
[22:41:01] <tjtr33> nspiel, cnc edm? i specialize in cnc edm. just added a rack atc to a TNC 416 control.
[22:41:02] <tjtr33> i'm trying to use Hal to control paths and orbiting ( sinker, not wedm )
[22:41:18] <tjtr33> my 6dof robot would only change tools for me
[22:45:50] <tjtr33> http://imagebin.org/268596
[22:46:27] <tjtr33> hacked an ONA c axis into it too
[23:10:59] <nspiel> i was planning on trying to making a sinking edm
[23:11:01] <nspiel> not wire
[23:11:59] <nspiel> wow that is awesome
[23:12:16] <nspiel> that is my goal as well to use hall for path control
[23:32:09] <nspiel> i think the probing from the actual connector worked!
[23:32:17] <nspiel> it must have been an issue with the ribbon cable
[23:56:25] <tjtr33> beware of the shield ( shroud on the ribbon ) sometimes cnxd to gnd, sometimes to separate shield
[23:57:36] <tjtr33> ( listens to G Thorogood's HoodoUluv really loud )