#linuxcnc | Logs for 2013-07-31

[00:31:56] <CaptHindsight> anyone ever use parallel servos similar to this? http://www.ausmt.org/index.php/AUSMT/article/view/72/25
[01:45:54] <jesseg> Are hotend heaters problematic?
[01:46:07] <jesseg> oops wrong window..
[02:16:32] <DJ9DJ> moin
[03:00:33] <LCNC> Hello ! I have a question. I need to create an index signal once per revolution of my stepper motor. I had the idea to use the 'counts' output of 'stepgen' modulo'the steps per revolution' and compare that to zero. Is there a way to compute the modulo with hal ?
[03:50:52] <LCNC> ello ! I have a question. I need to create an index signal once per revolution of my stepper motor. I had the idea to use the 'counts' output of 'stepgen' modulo'the steps per revolution' and compare that to zero. Is there a way to compute the modulo with hal ?
[04:08:55] <archivist> I have to ask why
[04:13:00] <LCNC> ok the truth is that I dont have a real stepper I rather use a Permanent Magnet Synchron Servo Motor for my lathe spindle with closed loop position control. I want to control it with the stepgen module but for threading I need to generate the index-enable signal for the motion module
[04:14:23] <LCNC> My Idea was feed an encoder with the quadrature signal of the stepgen module but I also need to provide the index signal once per revolution to the encoder
[04:15:27] <archivist> you really want real signals for threading, does your current encoder not have all three?
[04:22:11] <LCNC> the servo control already has good closed loop controle to ensure that th motor is at the desired position, so psition feedback to emc are unneccessary
[04:22:59] <LCNC> just imagine that i have a stepper motor connected to my lathe spindle.
[04:25:29] <archivist> yes and that servo probably has proper signals from the encoder including an index
[04:26:39] <LCNC> but i would have to waste an additional LPT input for that index signal and add additional wiring between the servo amplyfier and the pc
[04:27:14] <LCNC> actually i would need 3 inputs for quadrature + index signal
[04:27:40] <archivist> I only have A plus index on my lathe
[04:31:05] <LCNC> oh well then i need two inputs
[04:31:37] <archivist> remember threading follows the spindles actual movement, not an approximation which is what you are trying to implement, I think you can make something up with hal components
[04:31:53] <LCNC> Anyways Iwould rather like to do that in software than adding hardwarefeedback that I dont really need
[04:32:55] <archivist> you lose load feed back
[04:33:23] <archivist> there will be a phase error using your method
[04:33:56] <LCNC> no the servo amplyer has a complete position control loop that ensures proper position under any load conditions
[04:34:13] <LCNC> amplifyer i mean
[04:35:09] <archivist> there is always error in a loop else there cannot be any feedback to correct, it is a question of amount of error
[04:35:47] <LCNC> true, but that error will be quite small especially under near constant load like threading
[04:39:55] <LCNC> I mean emc does nothing else. It controls the axis position based on the spindle feedback. Instead I control the spindle movement based on the axis position, which is a "perfect" linear motion in my case
[04:39:57] <archivist> you just have to add a divider to one of the stepgen pins to
[04:40:17] <archivist> heh... nothing is perfect
[04:40:57] <LCNC> right but "perfect" != perfect
[04:41:22] <LCNC> ok whats the name of that divider hal module?
[04:45:29] <LCNC> ok I think I can use the updown module in wrap around mode
[09:01:42] <dosas> okay i have a problem with homing my z axis
[09:01:59] <dosas> when i jog everything is fine + and - goes in the right direction
[09:02:35] <dosas> but when i tell it to go into the home which is also the neagtive limit
[09:02:42] <dosas> it moves in plus direction
[09:02:52] <dosas> sorry it is the x axis the z is fine
[09:02:54] <jdh> change the sign on the home speed?
[09:03:03] <dosas> i will try that
[09:03:07] <jdh> I think that is described in the Homing and Limits section
[09:03:49] <dosas> thanks it works
[09:03:54] <dosas> must have overread that
[09:04:32] <jdh> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/config/ini_homing.html
[09:04:53] <nspiel> does anyone know how the mesa 7i43 is programmed from linux cnc because its an FPGA
[09:05:24] <jdh> via the p-port in EPP mode
[09:05:49] <nspiel> does linux cnc program it for u when u select it in config
[09:05:56] <dosas> that alos changed the homing configuration
[09:06:02] <dosas> but i willl read it again
[09:06:49] <jdh> it loads the firmware when you start LinuxCNC if it is configured for it.
[09:08:23] <nspiel> awesome
[09:08:35] <nspiel> does anyone know anybody who has got linux cnc working with a scara
[09:13:55] <jdh> I know a guy that has a cousin that saw a YouTube(tm) video of a SCARA running with LinuxCNC
[09:15:50] <skunkworks> heh
[09:19:27] <jdh> I gave up and ordered a chinese 12mm ballscrew to bolt on to the side of my crossslide. Couldn't find anthing small and affordable that would fit in the existing leadscrew space.
[09:20:03] <jdh> too bad I can't find anyone with a spare EMCO CNC lathe for sale.
[09:20:13] <skunkworks> heh
[09:20:39] <skunkworks> he will have one up on ebay in a few days I think... He needed to order some keys.
[09:21:11] <jdh> keys?
[09:21:11] <skunkworks> (he only got 1)
[09:22:06] <skunkworks> http://electronicsam.com/images/emco/emcoclose.JPG
[09:22:11] <skunkworks> you need a key to turn them on
[09:24:22] <jdh> do they have a belt/gear for the cross-slide motor?
[09:30:12] <ReadError_> finally broke down and bought a cyclone kit
[09:30:54] <jdh> what's a cyclone kit?
[09:31:08] <jdh> oh, to quit frying your shopvacs?
[09:31:20] <ReadError_> yea
[09:31:40] <ReadError_> my water filter system, well, ended up sucking a bunch of water into the vac
[09:31:48] <ReadError_> plus i think it will raise humidity alot
[09:31:52] <ReadError_> hoping this works out better
[09:36:08] <skunkworks> jdh, yes
[09:49:26] <CLNX> Hello everybody. In HAL how can I create a signal when an s32 value is zero? Is there some sort of comperator? I have seen the com component but it only operates on float values ;(
[09:49:49] <CLNX> I mean 'comp' component
[09:51:08] <skunkworks> look at wcomp
[09:51:25] <skunkworks> (it is a window comaparator)
[09:52:31] <CLNX> thank you but its also only for float values
[09:52:53] <skunkworks> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/2.5/html/man/man9/conv_s32_float.9.html
[09:53:39] <CLNX> ok that will work. I though there is a more effective way to do it
[09:53:50] <skunkworks> I don't know..
[09:54:20] <CLNX> is there a way to compute the modulo of a number?
[09:56:06] <cradek> classicladder can do that
[09:56:54] <CLNX> well that might be to slow, i need it as part of a control loop inside the base thread
[09:57:08] <cradek> hm yeah, I don't think you want to run CL in the base thread
[09:57:19] <CLNX> right ;)
[09:57:20] <cradek> in that case perhaps you should write a comp to do whatever you need
[09:57:42] <cradek> ideally you wouldn't have any floating point in the base thread either
[09:58:01] <CLNX> is there some kind of hello world comp that I can use as an example
[09:58:24] <cradek> there are oodles in the source tree - some are extremely simple
[09:58:51] <cradek> dig around in http://git.linuxcnc.org/gitweb?p=linuxcnc.git;a=tree;f=src/hal/components;h=1cc2a9697ed1f14630a8df1c92876f35e4793fc3;hb=refs/heads/v2.5_branch
[09:59:27] <CLNX> ah perfect thank you very much ;)
[09:59:46] <cradek> anything with .comp suffix can be built and installed with comp --install whatever.comp
[10:00:18] <cradek> not.comp is a great one to examine
[10:00:23] <cradek> and minmax.comp
[10:00:35] <cradek> they are very simple
[10:00:52] <CLNX> in what language are these .comp files programmed?
[10:01:16] <cradek> comp preprocesses these .comp files into C
[10:01:26] <CLNX> it looks like some c++ with macros for simplification
[10:01:27] <cradek> the code itself that you write is C
[10:01:41] <cradek> yes it's very much like that (except C, not C++)
[10:01:50] <CLNX> i see, thats good
[10:02:01] <CLNX> pretty simple ;)
[10:02:18] <cradek> you can write out the full C but there's a lot of framework code
[10:02:23] <cradek> comp just does that part for you
[10:02:56] <cradek> if you look at or2.comp you can see how to include documentation -- this gets built into a manpage and installed for you at the same time
[10:04:08] <CLNX> I noticed, the .comp stuff is pretty good for fast development. really nice, emc always surprises me in a positive way ;)
[10:38:12] <Aero-Tec2> got my code working
[10:45:41] <Aero-Tec2> that was a cool read,not sure what a s32 value is, but being able to write stuff and make emc more customizable is very cool
[10:46:04] <Aero-Tec2> so what sorts of things does .comp allow you to do?
[10:49:53] <cradek> anything a hal component can do
[10:50:39] <Aero-Tec2> like CLNX I to am surprised in positive ways with emc and all the things it can do and how versatile it is, not to mention the infinite way it can be customized.
[10:50:55] <cradek> yay
[10:51:01] <Aero-Tec2> lol
[10:51:29] <Aero-Tec2> so what is a s32 value?
[10:51:41] <cradek> a 32 bit signed type
[10:51:58] <Aero-Tec2> thanks
[10:52:04] <cradek> which means it can represent positive and negative integers in a certain range
[10:53:07] <gotham> I'm thinking of retrofitting a lathe using linuxcnc. are canned cycles for roughing / finishing coming soon?
[10:54:12] <cradek> I don't think the answer to that is known
[10:54:13] <Aero-Tec2> I used to be a programmer and so I did know that, but thanks for the info, I am in no way slamming you the extra explanation
[10:54:54] <Aero-Tec2> why not write your own sub to do the cuts you want
[10:55:45] <gotham> I haven't fully considered what it will take a sub to do roughing on a lathe
[10:55:51] <Aero-Tec2> you can also make up your own Gcode by moding/ adding to linuxcnc
[10:56:06] <gotham> I've used subs successfully on my mill and they are very powerful
[10:56:18] <Aero-Tec2> very much so
[10:56:42] <Aero-Tec2> I just finished writing a threading sub for my lathe
[10:56:57] <jdh> I used to be a programmer too.
[10:57:09] <jdh> unfortunately, I still am.
[10:57:21] <gotham> I thought threading as a canned cycle was already included
[10:57:36] <cradek> it is
[10:58:25] <Aero-Tec2> 28 points of data and it will make the thread to industry spec, including auto turn down to size as well as boring for internal threads and do INT threading as well
[10:58:44] <cradek> 28!
[10:59:02] <Aero-Tec2> thread start and stop
[10:59:02] <jdh> and, it will wash your dishes
[10:59:11] <Aero-Tec2> resize start and stop
[11:00:42] <Aero-Tec2> fudge resize and for threading for tweaking and comp for tool bend or stock bending and for getting it stop on to size
[11:01:28] <gotham> if you care to share, where can i find your threading sub when i am ready?
[11:01:52] <Aero-Tec2> TPI and pitch, if pitch is zero it calcs pitch from TPI
[11:02:14] <Aero-Tec2> right now it is still a work in progress
[11:02:34] <Aero-Tec2> sections of it are not done
[11:02:51] <Aero-Tec2> like INT threading, it will be done soon
[11:03:01] <Aero-Tec2> just got ext done
[11:04:41] <Aero-Tec2> here is the form you fill out to do the threading
[11:04:44] <Aero-Tec2> http://pastebin.com/dU9vLE7r
[11:05:12] <Aero-Tec2> a quick explanation of each field is included
[11:06:14] <Aero-Tec2> it calcs based on a full tip point, it has a built in threading tool compensation for point loss
[11:07:07] <Aero-Tec2> the idea is the get the thread as perfect as possible with the threading tools you have
[11:07:46] <jdh> I was planning on getting rid of my compound
[11:07:47] <Aero-Tec2> now a full profile threading tool will not need all the extras
[11:09:08] <Aero-Tec2> with each threading tool you enter in the amount of point loss based on trial and error cutting and measuring the threads your cutting
[11:10:16] <Aero-Tec2> the math should be perfect in a perfect world with no flex in tooling or machine and a tool that cut 100%perfect with a perfect point
[11:11:14] <Aero-Tec2> we all know that is a dream our dreams would have as even in our own dreams that would be just to good and nice
[11:12:56] <Aero-Tec2> so the tool based comp in the sub along with fudge passed from the calling program give one the ability comp for hardness of steel and tool wear and what ever else the world throws at us
[11:13:33] <gotham> really interesting work
[11:16:03] <Aero-Tec2> BTW once a programmer always a programmer
[11:16:04] <jdh> make it ngcgui compatible
[11:16:33] <Aero-Tec2> I did get away from it for awhile but it will always come back at some point in time
[11:16:42] <Aero-Tec2> would love to
[11:16:50] <Aero-Tec2> will have to learn how
[11:17:17] <Aero-Tec2> I have no idea of how it works or what it does exactly
[11:17:56] <Aero-Tec2> I know it allows for easy gcode gen in a graphical GUI
[11:18:58] <Aero-Tec2> I have not even gotten around to getting it working on my stuff yet, started looking into it at one time
[11:19:26] <Aero-Tec2> there is a boring and resizing sub the threading sub calls
[11:20:00] <Aero-Tec2> it preps the stock for the thread
[11:20:29] <Aero-Tec2> but can be called for non threading stuff as all threading calcs and work is done in the threading sub
[11:21:22] <Aero-Tec2> o<cut_bore> call [#<RXS>][#<RZS>][#<RXE>][#<RZE>][#<TRRC>][#<TRFR>][#<TMRCD>][#<TRFC>][#<TRTN>]
[11:21:39] <Aero-Tec2> call for the cutting stock dia and for boring
[11:26:49] <Aero-Tec2> simple start end for z and x, also tool number, feed rate, depth of cut, finish cut and clearance to use for z return, if clearance for z return is zero then it returns at the feed rate it went in so you can back cut as well
[11:29:43] <Aero-Tec2> it know by the relation ship of x start and x stop if it is boring ot turn down the stock and does the clearances from that, so you do not have to worry about about getting the return clearance set to + or - you just say 0.005 or what every, the sub works out what dir the clearance is
[11:31:05] <Aero-Tec2> I try to make things as fool proof as possible as it helps make my life easier in the end
[11:32:24] <Aero-Tec2> I can mix things up real good so I have to protect me from myself, not to mention my equipment from getting dinged up
[11:34:13] <Aero-Tec2> I am very dyslexic so it is extremely easy for me to get thing wrong, so if I write a sub I try to make it as easy to work with as possible and have it check for errors
[11:37:10] <Aero-Tec2> if you guys want I can post the subs as they are done and tested
[11:41:38] <Aero-Tec2> I should add to the boring, back cut on finish cut only
[11:52:05] <Aero-Tec2> some may call what I do gcode abuse
[11:53:20] <Aero-Tec2> never heard that term until I came here
[12:04:13] <Aero-Tec2> this may seem like over kill for some of you, but I do a whole lines of products that have very minor differences change thread size or pitch or depth and stock size
[12:05:26] <jdh> your MES should generate and download the right part program for you .
[12:05:45] <Aero-Tec2> all I need to do is go through and change a few numbers and bang a whole new part done to customer spec with out redrawing and camming and testing air and what ever
[12:06:08] <IchGuckLive> hi all B)
[12:10:03] <Aero-Tec2> I have a part numbering system, each part profile gets a number, once a part profile has been done, to cut that part again I just edit one number and it comes out complete with last used fudge numbers so the first one made should be very close to perfect
[12:11:00] <Aero-Tec2> by one edit I can make lots of different parts with the same code
[12:11:46] <Aero-Tec2> so for me it works very well, I like Gcode abuse...lol
[12:11:57] <Aero-Tec2> sorry just had to throw that in
[12:21:28] <Aero-Tec2> BTW the exact same part done in different metal gets it own part number so it is easy to redo the next time I run it, all info needed to get it just right are stored for that part number
[12:23:48] <jthornton> what kind of parts do you make?
[12:26:35] <Aero-Tec2> lots of custom threaded stuff
[12:26:51] <Aero-Tec2> sporting guys mostly
[12:27:12] <Tom_itx> well you had a reason for writing it or you wouldn't have done it
[12:27:24] <Aero-Tec2> skidoos and atvs and gun guys
[12:27:29] <jthornton> cool, like gun parts or bow parts
[12:27:42] <Aero-Tec2> doing a line of my own products soon
[12:27:57] * Tom_itx rings the lunch bell
[12:28:17] <Aero-Tec2> done crossbow parts as well
[12:28:24] * jthornton notes that Tom_itx is tardy for lunch
[12:28:40] <Tom_itx> dogs had to say hi first
[12:29:43] <Aero-Tec2> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRalqIEwzIc
[12:29:44] <Tecan> (BRalqIEwzIc) "A Few of the Thing I Have Made" by "spacetraveler30" is "Sports" - Length: 0:04:07
[12:29:49] <jthornton> I make a few products for can am spyders
[12:29:52] <Aero-Tec2> some of the stuff I make
[12:32:14] <Aero-Tec2> that is just a few of the things I have made and make
[12:33:33] <jthornton> are you anodizing the parts?
[12:37:22] <Aero-Tec2> some of them yes
[12:37:32] <Aero-Tec2> I have my own setup to do it
[12:37:56] <Aero-Tec2> and is it ever a pain, if your wanting to do it right
[12:38:14] <jthornton> are you using 12 ASF or the LCD Caswell method?
[12:38:33] <jthornton> yea, I'm getting into it now
[12:38:45] <Aero-Tec2> the temp of acid has to be with in a few deg
[12:39:07] <jthornton> you run yours 68-70F?
[12:40:12] <Aero-Tec2> and how do you change the acid temp, also the power to anodize heats the acid so you have to have lots of and start low and hope your done by the time it get close to to hot
[12:40:40] <jthornton> I have a chiller for mine
[12:40:40] <Aero-Tec2> yes I do the 12 ASF one
[12:40:56] <jthornton> that's what I'm going to do as well
[12:41:13] <Aero-Tec2> yes, and 2 degs are hard to hit at times
[12:41:30] <jthornton> I salvaged a water fountain cooler to chill some cooling water
[12:41:37] <Aero-Tec2> what you using for a chiller?
[12:41:40] <jthornton> can't you be colder too
[12:41:51] <Aero-Tec2> no
[12:41:59] <jthornton> old water fountain chiller
[12:42:13] <Aero-Tec2> the pore size gets smaller the colder it gets
[12:42:25] <jthornton> ok thanks for that tip
[12:42:33] <Aero-Tec2> get to small and the dye will not take
[12:42:43] <Tom_itx> do you wind your own springs?
[12:42:50] <Tom_itx> that's alot of springs
[12:43:22] <Aero-Tec2> the real hard anodizing call hard anodizing is done in cold acid
[12:43:53] <jthornton> yea type 3 is really cold iirc
[12:44:31] <Aero-Tec2> and can only be dyes black of some awful green as they are the only ones small enough to get into the structure
[12:44:54] <jthornton> bbl
[12:45:10] <Aero-Tec2> yes to making my own springs
[12:47:54] <Aero-Tec2> jthornton, let me know when your back, want to know what you used to run the cold water through the acid
[12:48:24] <Tom_itx> i think he's just getting his set up
[12:49:05] <Tom_itx> glass tubing would work wouldn't it?
[12:49:55] <Aero-Tec2> some guys use titanium tubing, tad expense for me, some guys use plastic tubing but have problems with wait times between runs as they can not chill fast enough
[12:50:12] <Aero-Tec2> glass would if it did not brake
[12:51:06] <Aero-Tec2> copper would be nice if it did not contaminate the acid and make it unusable
[12:51:13] <Tom_itx> i take it the acid heats up when exposed to the metal?
[12:51:54] <jmasseo> exothermic reaction
[12:53:15] <Tom_itx> apparently some use lead
[12:53:27] <Aero-Tec2> some use aluminum but that also will kill the acid and will also dissolve over time, because of this it also has to be removed from the tank when not in use
[12:53:34] <Tom_itx> http://www.pfonline.com/articles/cooling-coils-in-the-anodize-tank
[12:55:18] <Tom_itx> Sulfuric Acid will not atack 316L Stainless Steel pipes
[12:55:26] <Tom_itx> http://www.linkedin.com/groups/I-need-cooling-coil-heat-2856802.S.130424645
[12:57:49] <Tom_itx> i bet my salvage guy has some SS tubing
[13:03:41] <Aero-Tec2> I would have not got into it if I knew then what I know now
[13:03:47] <Aero-Tec2> it is a pain
[13:04:03] <Aero-Tec2> and expensive
[13:04:46] <Aero-Tec2> I have thousands of $$ invested, that is the only thing keeping me from scrapping it...lol
[13:05:10] <jmasseo> in your anodizing line?
[13:06:02] <Aero-Tec2> started with 2 hot plates and 4 one gallon steel pots and a 2 gal acid pail
[13:06:12] <Aero-Tec2> yes my anodizing line
[13:06:29] <Aero-Tec2> thought this is a pain I need to go bigger
[13:09:07] <Aero-Tec2> so 45 gal acid tank and 17 gal dye tanks, heater and coolers and all sorts of wiring of 240 to heat tanks up as well as titanium holder for the parts
[13:09:18] <Aero-Tec2> adds up real quickly
[13:09:50] <jdh> can you anodize my stepper mounts for me
[13:10:24] <Aero-Tec2> I can run a one man commercial system
[13:10:27] <Aero-Tec2> sure
[13:10:37] <Aero-Tec2> what color do you want
[13:10:44] <jdh> purple
[13:10:53] <Aero-Tec2> also I am in Canada
[13:11:04] <Aero-Tec2> where are you?
[13:11:06] <jdh> so much for that idea :)
[13:11:12] <jdh> nc.us.earth
[13:11:37] <Aero-Tec2> I do not have purple set up yet
[13:11:56] <Aero-Tec2> have empty tanks for other colors
[13:12:05] <jdh> ebay guy has 3 sets of hiwin rails that are still cheap, but $50 + $40 + $30 for shipping
[13:12:52] <Aero-Tec2> $120 for shipping?
[13:13:08] <Aero-Tec2> he is not selling parts he is selling shipping
[13:13:25] <jdh> yeah, and they are only 150 miles from here.
[13:16:17] <jdh> if one wanted to make a 24x36" DIY laser table, what would you use for the base
[13:18:10] <Aero-Tec2> if it were me, 1 inch square tubing welded together to make the frame and then pop rivet some light al plate to it to keep the light from blinding someone
[13:19:51] <Aero-Tec2> but I have the aluminum plate and tubing and welders and pop riveter so it would be quick and cheap for me
[13:20:30] <jdh> I have a riviter... I'm almost there!
[13:20:36] <Aero-Tec2> one could use sheet metal and have it bent to shape
[13:20:37] <JT-Shop> Aero-Tec2: I plan on pumping it through a PVC manifold placed in the acid tank
[13:21:32] <Aero-Tec2> I used one gal milk jugs filled with water and frozen
[13:21:51] <Aero-Tec2> float that between runs
[13:22:17] <JT-Shop> cool low tech chiller
[13:22:35] <Aero-Tec2> it works but slow, and over shoot of target temp is a given..lol
[13:23:21] <JT-Shop> what kind of thermometer do you use in your acid tank?
[13:23:57] <Aero-Tec2> well not if your there watching but one gets busy doing some thing else and, well, time to bring out the heater
[13:24:29] <Aero-Tec2> floating fish tank and IR non contact gun
[13:24:43] <JT-Shop> ok, thanks
[13:24:45] <jdh> tie the jugs to a winch, have a loop to raise/lower the jugs
[13:25:34] <JT-Shop> I picked up the stuff I need to circulate the acid today so maybe some flow tests with water tonight
[13:25:55] <Aero-Tec2> the heater is a 1X5 inch aluminum bar 4 feet tall with a coffee pot heater on it
[13:28:12] <Aero-Tec2> your pumping acid?
[13:28:22] <Aero-Tec2> what pump did you get?
[13:29:22] <JT-Shop> yes it is a Little Giant acid pump
[13:29:44] <JT-Shop> TE-3-MD-HC
[13:29:47] <Aero-Tec2> how much and where is the best place to get one?
[13:30:37] <Aero-Tec2> pumping acid would be the best way to go
[13:30:47] <JT-Shop> cheapest place I found was Zoro Tools and it is Branded with the Grainger part number 2P040
[13:31:23] <Aero-Tec2> get some acid movement and stop the need for air bubbler
[13:31:30] <JT-Shop> their part number G1927922 zorotools.com
[13:31:49] <JT-Shop> yes, I didn't want the bubbler and all the fumes from that
[13:32:16] <Aero-Tec2> hate having air bubbles they spit when they pop
[13:32:25] <JT-Shop> $237.55 delivered
[13:32:26] <Aero-Tec2> and the fumes, yes
[13:32:31] <Aero-Tec2> cool
[13:32:51] <JT-Shop> my power supply was $399 :(
[13:33:13] <JT-Shop> 70amp constant current
[13:33:37] <JT-Shop> I wanted a sporting chance to get this right pretty quick
[13:33:45] <Aero-Tec2> lol
[13:33:54] <Aero-Tec2> mine was around that as well
[13:34:01] <Aero-Tec2> and 70 amp
[13:34:10] <Aero-Tec2> where did you get yours?
[13:34:22] <Aero-Tec2> moonlight guy?
[13:34:34] <Aero-Tec2> yours sounds like mine
[13:36:29] <JT-Shop> same one as he sells but cheaper with free delivery
[13:36:42] <Aero-Tec2> mine is a astron 70 0-15 volt adjustable and current limiter
[13:36:50] <JT-Shop> do you use 6061 cathodes or lead?
[13:38:11] <Aero-Tec2> I use 50xx type as it is more pure AL 60xx is got more copper in it and is not as good
[13:42:29] <JT-Shop> all I have on hand is 60xx so I'll use that for now, as I understand it is better than lead in any case
[13:44:18] <JT-Shop> I could get some 1100 sheet stock it is cheap enough
[13:48:30] <Aero-Tec2> yes 1100 would be good
[13:49:19] <Aero-Tec2> you do need to season the acid for it to work well
[13:50:02] <Aero-Tec2> so leave the plates in for a few days for it to dissolve some
[13:50:08] <JT-Shop> I was wondering how you started a new tank and when you know it is ready
[13:50:15] <JT-Shop> ok
[13:50:31] <Aero-Tec2> then after that if your not using it every day remove then
[13:50:39] <Aero-Tec2> them
[13:50:44] <JT-Shop> ok
[13:52:16] <Aero-Tec2> you know it is ready when 12ASF is right around the 12 volt mark
[13:52:54] <JT-Shop> ok thanks for that tip
[13:53:08] <Aero-Tec2> have a 6x12 thin plate ready and put it in
[13:53:21] <Aero-Tec2> it should be running at 12 amps
[13:53:28] <Aero-Tec2> at 12 volts
[13:53:51] * JT-Shop writes this down
[13:54:05] <Aero-Tec2> or 6x6 and you should get 6 amps
[13:55:19] <Aero-Tec2> get titanium holders for holding your work
[13:55:25] <Aero-Tec2> they are a god send
[13:55:50] <Aero-Tec2> I started with AL wire but they are a real pain
[13:56:19] <JT-Shop> I have some Ti wire so far and some 1100 wire
[13:56:35] <Aero-Tec2> just about no duds, easy to use fast, no messing around
[13:56:47] <Aero-Tec2> if your doing any volume at all they are a must
[13:57:40] <Aero-Tec2> I have used ti wire as well, but they burn right at the surface as the acid heats up from the wire
[13:57:55] <Aero-Tec2> the resistance of ti is some what high
[13:58:10] <Aero-Tec2> so you have to load it light or it will burn off
[13:58:21] <JT-Shop> I'll be doing a few larger parts like this http://imagebin.org/266115
[13:58:26] <Aero-Tec2> light as in current load
[13:58:49] <JT-Shop> I have some 1/8" Ti wire
[13:59:32] <JT-Shop> as I understand as soon as you clear the acid you can switch to copper wire
[13:59:35] <Aero-Tec2> that might work
[13:59:45] <Aero-Tec2> yes
[14:01:27] <Aero-Tec2> I used AL bars across the top, with AL or SS bolts to connect the ti wire to
[14:02:14] <Aero-Tec2> the copper wire was connected to the AL bar off to the side where the acid would be less likely for splash on it
[14:02:25] <Aero-Tec2> the bubble spray is a pain
[14:03:29] <JT-Shop> got any photos of your acid tank?
[14:03:40] <Aero-Tec2> not yet
[14:03:54] <Aero-Tec2> it is out side
[14:06:13] <Aero-Tec2> 4X8X4 wood box with 1 inch foam insulation inside and wiring running all around the outside with switches and outlets and with it own breaker box on front
[14:06:50] <Aero-Tec2> keep a oil filled heater turned real low for winter in it
[14:07:06] <jdh> do you use this a lot?
[14:07:19] <Aero-Tec2> got stuff on top of it now
[14:07:59] <Aero-Tec2> not as much as the investment would indicate ..lol
[14:08:07] <Aero-Tec2> been almost a year now
[14:08:29] <Aero-Tec2> but will have to dig it out and start using it again real soon
[14:08:45] <Aero-Tec2> I used to use it lots
[14:09:20] <Aero-Tec2> but the stuff I was using it for was no longer ordered so it got put on hold
[14:09:44] <Aero-Tec2> I am making my own stuff soon so it will have to be brought back to life
[14:10:08] <Aero-Tec2> kiss another grand good bye
[14:10:52] <Aero-Tec2> the chemicals all need redoing, may even run up to $1500
[14:12:25] <Aero-Tec2> in the summer time it is not bad to do
[14:12:39] <Aero-Tec2> but winter is a whole other thing
[14:13:11] <Aero-Tec2> lots of cold water and wet hands and cold every thing
[14:13:42] <Aero-Tec2> ice build up around the box
[14:14:13] <Aero-Tec2> shovel snow and brake ice, did I say I was having fun yet?
[14:16:25] <Aero-Tec2> I have a baking soda tank and 2 water tanks and then a spray hose, oh and the spray hose in winter has to be pissing all the time or ir will freeze, say HI!! to more ice
[14:16:50] <JT-Shop> it does sound like fun up there
[14:16:59] <jdh> yeah, it snowed here a few years ago.
[14:17:56] <Aero-Tec2> yea it is fun all right
[14:18:08] <Aero-Tec2> summer time is OK
[14:22:59] <Aero-Tec2> running a cooling system like JT-Shop will be a big help
[14:23:22] <Tom_itx> what's it cost to have parts anodized commercially?
[14:23:39] <Aero-Tec2> not cheap
[14:23:45] <Tom_itx> there are at least a couple if not more shops around here that do it
[14:24:06] <Tom_itx> i had a friend that was a sales rep that got his stuff done free when he'd go by the places
[14:24:07] <Aero-Tec2> that is why I did it myself, that is not cheap ether unless you do lots of it
[14:24:20] <Tom_itx> he'd have to wait for them to run a certain color but he didn't mind for that price
[14:24:47] <Tom_itx> that's why i wondered about the cost
[14:27:22] <Aero-Tec2> would be nice to have a no splash circulating and cooling system
[14:33:37] <Aero-Tec2> summer time, had forgot, bugs, wind, leaves, dust, spiders, ants and what ever all want into your tanks
[14:34:26] <Aero-Tec2> so I run fish tank filters on all the non acid tanks, the cheap $20 wall-mart ones
[14:34:44] <WalterN> JT-Shop: how is the anodizing going?
[14:35:01] <JT-Shop> collecting bits and working on the work area
[14:35:10] <Aero-Tec2> that helps keep the under surface floaters down and nets for the floaters
[14:35:37] <Aero-Tec2> how big is your area?
[14:35:47] <Aero-Tec2> what size line you making?
[14:36:27] <JT-Shop> I have a 12 x 16 shed and I'm making a 5 gallon line except the acid tank will be 10 gallons
[14:36:51] <Aero-Tec2> nice
[14:37:09] <Aero-Tec2> does it have running water?
[14:37:24] <Aero-Tec2> and drainage?
[14:37:31] <JT-Shop> garden hose, hole in floor
[14:37:45] <JT-Shop> or pitch out the door
[14:38:08] <Tom_itx> swamp water
[14:38:10] <Tom_itx> :)
[14:38:19] <JT-Shop> yes that too
[14:39:13] <Aero-Tec2> you will need to spray down the work, if you have small holes you will need to have a needle rinse tool to get into the holes, small blind holes are the worst
[14:39:52] * Tom_itx saves the log and publishes a book for JT-Shop
[14:40:01] <JT-Shop> lol
[14:40:34] <Aero-Tec2> swishing is ok and nice, and works well if your work is holeless, but few things are holeless
[14:43:11] <Aero-Tec2> having 2 sprayers is highly recommended one with hand gun sprayer and one with a thin needle like unit like a air gun with a small metal tube to get into the small holes
[14:45:33] <JT-Shop> I didn't think of a needle sprayer
[14:45:50] <Aero-Tec2> small threaded holes will weep and ruin your dyes and parts coloring, it will leave a blanck area running down the part pointing at the hole
[14:46:15] <Tom_itx> fishtank hose with hypo needle on the end
[14:46:28] <Tom_itx> i use that for manual pick n place parts
[14:46:33] <Cylly> hmmm
[14:46:38] <JT-Shop> do you use a neutralizer tank after the acid bath?
[14:46:53] <Aero-Tec2> lol
[14:46:55] <Aero-Tec2> yes
[14:47:07] <Aero-Tec2> does not do every thing
[14:48:15] <Aero-Tec2> loaded with baking soda and 2 rinse baths and a hand spray down just to make it sure and still it was not enough
[14:49:11] <Aero-Tec2> drove me nuts till some guy told me about the rinse hose and small tube
[14:49:25] <Aero-Tec2> I learned this the hard way
[14:51:45] <JT-Shop> so the holes were dragging acid to the dye bath?
[14:51:53] <Aero-Tec2> yes
[14:52:27] <JT-Shop> this is a very informative conversation for sure
[14:52:33] <Tom_itx> :)
[14:52:38] <Aero-Tec2> the fine threads hold acid, even after a backing soda bath, swish and soak and still acid
[14:52:43] <Tom_itx> JT-Shop will be a pro before he ever starts
[14:53:09] <JT-Shop> I doubt that but I'll have a head start...
[14:56:10] <Aero-Tec2> I could not believe there was still acid after just the soda soak and swish, and a garden hose good wash down, then 2 plain water tank swishes and soaks, and a garden hose good wash down
[14:58:28] <JT-Shop> dang
[14:58:55] <JT-Shop> what did the acid do to the dye bath?
[15:00:01] <Aero-Tec2> messes with the PH and makes it not work nearly as well, fixing the PH helps allot but it is ever as good as it was
[15:02:14] <Aero-Tec2> anodizing is messy, and unless you supper careful you will have holy close... I mean holey lol
[15:02:37] <R2E4_> Does LinuxCNC need to know when a drive is ready?
[15:02:56] <Aero-Tec2> messup up the spelling
[15:03:12] <CaptHindsight> those are some of the problems with water based dye baths
[15:03:29] <Aero-Tec2> clothes
[15:04:10] <Aero-Tec2> you do anodizing, what dye do you use?
[15:04:32] <CaptHindsight> I make them
[15:04:33] <Aero-Tec2> I was following your anodizing how to very closely
[15:04:51] <Aero-Tec2> cool, how I would love to make mine
[15:05:13] <CaptHindsight> inkjet into anodize
[15:05:43] <Aero-Tec2> I saw you use both water and solvent based for doing color effects
[15:06:17] <Aero-Tec2> is inkjet ink cheaper?
[15:06:23] <CaptHindsight> those are some ways to do it, with inkjet you just print everything
[15:06:23] <Aero-Tec2> or does it work better?
[15:06:45] <Aero-Tec2> ?
[15:06:59] <Aero-Tec2> you anodize and then run it through a printer?
[15:07:07] <CaptHindsight> yesm before sealing
[15:07:11] <Aero-Tec2> that would be just to cool
[15:07:28] <Aero-Tec2> pix pix pix I got to see some pix
[15:07:31] <CaptHindsight> solvent based ink, water based will wash out during sealing
[15:07:42] <Aero-Tec2> work you have done and the equipment you use
[15:08:10] <Aero-Tec2> you have got me exited now
[15:08:16] <Aero-Tec2> not hard to do
[15:08:33] <Aero-Tec2> I would love to see and learn more on how you do this
[15:08:46] <Aero-Tec2> if your willing to share
[15:09:32] <CaptHindsight> the pores in type-II aluminum anodize are 10-100nm is diameter before sealing
[15:09:57] <Aero-Tec2> thought you needed to heat the work so the pours open up and the dye can penetrate the oxide structure
[15:10:06] <CaptHindsight> so basically whatever fits in them will get sealed in the pores
[15:10:26] <Aero-Tec2> what about sealing
[15:10:38] <Aero-Tec2> I hate the seal I am using
[15:10:51] <CaptHindsight> it's the effect of surface tension when using water based dye
[15:10:54] <Aero-Tec2> and hot water does not do much for color fast
[15:11:15] <CaptHindsight> you need to get the dye to flow into the pores and also stay put when sealing
[15:11:42] <CaptHindsight> with solvent based dye it's really easy
[15:12:10] <Aero-Tec2> now it my turn to learn from a master
[15:12:35] <CaptHindsight> that's why with water based dye, temperature and pH are so important
[15:12:37] <Aero-Tec2> I was wanting to talk to you about your anodizing
[15:12:39] <JT-Shop> are you using Nickel Acetate based sealer?
[15:12:47] <Aero-Tec2> yes
[15:12:53] <CaptHindsight> yes, you can use nickle
[15:13:02] <Aero-Tec2> and it give a green tint to all my colors
[15:13:25] <Aero-Tec2> my yellow is lime green almost
[15:13:54] <CaptHindsight> one of the problems with water based dye is wash out during sealing
[15:13:55] <Aero-Tec2> not quite but you do see a green shade in there
[15:14:14] <CaptHindsight> solvent based dye doesn't wash out
[15:14:30] <JT-Shop> where do you ge solvent based dye?
[15:14:33] <Aero-Tec2> so why are the dye not all solvent based?
[15:14:33] <JT-Shop> get
[15:14:46] <Aero-Tec2> they are light fast as well
[15:14:46] <CaptHindsight> and it acts as a resist for water based dye
[15:14:58] <CaptHindsight> light fast is another issue
[15:15:15] <CaptHindsight> dye tends to get broken down by UV exposure
[15:15:55] <Aero-Tec2> thanks for your helping out with this info
[15:16:02] <CaptHindsight> the trick there is to either use a pigment particle small enough to fit into the pores or add a UV blocker to the dye
[15:16:35] <CaptHindsight> dye is in solution, pigment is in suspension
[15:17:04] <CaptHindsight> dye easily fits into the pores, but pigment has to be milled down to fit
[15:17:18] <CaptHindsight> say from >1um to 10nm
[15:18:11] <CaptHindsight> that is also how they add teflon and other additives to anodize to change it's characteristics
[15:18:30] <CaptHindsight> self lubrication, etc
[15:18:38] <Aero-Tec2> any help with suppliers and how to work your magic? like mix UV protection in and such, I want to put out a high end product and have it look good for a long time
[15:19:10] <Aero-Tec2> have you added teflon to your anodizing?
[15:19:14] <CaptHindsight> for solvent dye, that shoe dye co used to work
[15:19:39] <CaptHindsight> Fiebing
[15:20:01] <CaptHindsight> not sure if they are all still dye based or if they started using any pigments
[15:20:02] <Aero-Tec2> used to work, what happened?
[15:20:28] <CaptHindsight> co's change their formulas to save $$
[15:20:44] <Aero-Tec2> are you still doing anodizing?
[15:20:49] <CaptHindsight> so if they are still dye they will work
[15:21:19] <CaptHindsight> I'm not an anodized, just do R&D
[15:21:31] <CaptHindsight> anodized/anodizer
[15:21:44] <Aero-Tec2> I found some solvent based ink jet ink suppliers, went looking for them after reading your post from before
[15:21:56] <CaptHindsight> most will be pigment based
[15:22:31] <CaptHindsight> and also with particles >400nm (mostly just under 1um)
[15:22:35] <Aero-Tec2> you blew my mind with what you were saying
[15:22:50] <CaptHindsight> solvent based flatbed printers aren't cheap
[15:23:42] <Aero-Tec2> bet they do cool work
[15:24:14] <CaptHindsight> it's similar to printing on paper, photo res.
[15:24:38] <Aero-Tec2> I would love to have the ability to do cool art work in anodizing
[15:25:10] <CaptHindsight> only they get tweaked to just fill the pores and no more since the pores can only absorb so much before you have a wet puddle vs an image
[15:25:42] <CaptHindsight> there are also ways of dialing in the pore diameter
[15:26:24] <CaptHindsight> it's all dependent on alloy, and type of acid mix, temp, current, etc
[15:26:55] <Aero-Tec2> other then shoe shine dye any other place to get supplies?
[15:27:17] <CaptHindsight> most anodizers just follow a routine that works with their dye supplier
[15:27:35] <CaptHindsight> not the shoe polish, the leather dye
[15:27:46] <Aero-Tec2> most places that will sell to me do not post particle size
[15:27:56] <CaptHindsight> heh, nope
[15:28:40] <CaptHindsight> if it's dye, the color particles are in solution so it's sub-nanometer
[15:29:10] <CaptHindsight> most anodizers have never looked at their results under a SEM
[15:29:19] <Aero-Tec2> so leather dye
[15:29:46] <Aero-Tec2> lol that would be cool, but your right I have never done that, would love to
[15:30:39] <CaptHindsight> http://www.fiebing.com/catalogue/dyes/?product=172
[15:30:47] <Aero-Tec2> can one get powdered anodizing dye and mix it in a solvent?
[15:31:00] <CaptHindsight> try a small bottle before you buy a gallon
[15:31:28] <CaptHindsight> if you want to spend a few $K for 20kg
[15:32:35] <Aero-Tec2> thing is they will not ship to me
[15:32:44] <Aero-Tec2> I am in canada
[15:32:58] <Aero-Tec2> Shipping Notes
[15:32:58] <Aero-Tec2> Continental US shipping only
[15:33:16] <Aero-Tec2> and they will not ship to cali as well
[15:33:36] <`Nerobro> no ship to cali is common due to their insane regulations
[15:33:40] <Aero-Tec2> guess all there regs made it where they could not get the goods
[15:34:55] <Aero-Tec2> anyone willing to be the middle man?
[15:34:56] <Aero-Tec2> lol
[15:35:03] <Aero-Tec2> need the goods
[15:36:02] <Aero-Tec2> guess I need to get a box in the US and have them forward my mail to me
[15:36:33] <Aero-Tec2> so when you get the leather dye
[15:36:41] <Aero-Tec2> what then?
[15:38:03] <Aero-Tec2> anything special, do you dilute it and if so with what? I think you mentioned something about it before
[15:39:17] <Aero-Tec2> also does leather dye have higher light fast?
[15:39:36] <Aero-Tec2> sorry for the thousand questions
[15:40:37] <Aero-Tec2> CaptHindsight, where did you go?
[15:40:50] <Aero-Tec2> hope I did not chase you away
[15:43:32] <CaptHindsight> phone,
[15:43:56] <Jymmm> telegraph
[15:43:59] <CaptHindsight> don't they carry it at shoe stores there?
[15:45:18] <CaptHindsight> http://www.fiebing.com/catalogue/dyes/?product=178 is low VOC for CA
[15:46:01] <Jymmm> Might find that in a leather shop or ask a shoe repair place.
[15:46:05] <Aero-Tec2> not sure if there are any shoe stores here, there used to be shoe stores and cobblers but they have all gone
[15:46:16] <Jymmm> Aero-Tec2: city?
[15:46:19] <CaptHindsight> yeah, lost art
[15:46:34] <Aero-Tec2> small city
[15:46:40] <Jymmm> name
[15:47:00] <Aero-Tec2> I live near salmon arm B.C. Canada
[15:47:28] <CaptHindsight> http://shopping.canoe.ca/shop/product--productId_28601528.html
[15:48:00] <Jymmm> Aero-Tec2: how far is Kelowna from you?
[15:49:12] <Jymmm> oh shit, nm =)
[15:49:20] <Aero-Tec2> lol
[15:49:32] <Aero-Tec2> one hour, is that were you are?
[15:49:54] <Aero-Tec2> oops it is 2 hours
[15:50:04] <CaptHindsight> bbl
[15:50:06] <Jymmm> 1h15m
[15:50:13] <Jymmm> Tandy Leather
[15:50:14] <Jymmm> 1627 Ellis St, Kelowna, BC V1Y 2A8
[15:50:14] <Jymmm> 250-763-5696
[15:50:25] <jmasseo> heh tandy
[15:50:34] <Aero-Tec2> where do you live?
[15:50:37] <Jymmm> jmasseo: Yep, they still exist =)
[15:51:11] <Jymmm> Aero-Tec2: 1200 Miles south of you =)
[15:51:11] <mozmck> jmasseo: the main offices are in Ft Worth.
[15:51:49] <Aero-Tec2> to salmon arm it is 1h15m but I am 20m the other side
[15:52:45] <Aero-Tec2> 1h15m is to the out skits, and 30 to ge to down town
[15:52:48] <Tom_itx> alcolhol based dye
[15:52:50] <Tom_itx> hmm
[15:53:30] <mozmck> it actually works well for dying/staining wood as well.
[15:53:53] <Tom_itx> yeah we used alcohol based stains
[15:54:06] <jmasseo> yeah i work in ft worth
[15:54:15] <Tom_itx> sprayed some of em on
[15:55:44] <Tom_itx> i can picture Aero-Tec2 dripping dye on a part sitting on a centrifuge for effect
[15:56:29] <Tom_itx> like the ketchup bottle paint thing at the fair
[15:57:40] <Aero-Tec2> lol so could I see that, hell I have done it
[15:57:42] <Aero-Tec2> lol
[15:57:57] <Aero-Tec2> not anodizing but other things
[16:00:41] <Aero-Tec2> hell even http://www.tandyleatherfactory.ca will not ship to cali
[16:01:10] <Aero-Tec2> must be hard living in cali
[16:01:22] <Aero-Tec2> no one wants to send you stuff
[16:04:13] <CaptHindsight> very odd, companies still make styrene blends in Cali
[16:05:29] <CaptHindsight> ethanol is ok for the dye blend but the 2-5% methanol "denatured" version is considered to high in VOC's
[16:05:48] <CaptHindsight> vodka based show dye for the win!
[16:05:55] <CaptHindsight> show/shoe
[16:08:04] <CaptHindsight> we can only ship ethanol based inks to some places
[16:10:27] <Aero-Tec2> so when I get the stuff, what then?
[16:10:36] <Aero-Tec2> it is small
[16:10:51] <Aero-Tec2> even a gallon is small
[16:11:10] <Aero-Tec2> can not mix with water can I?
[16:11:21] <CaptHindsight> test with the small size first in case they went with pigment
[16:11:52] <CaptHindsight> it comes pretty dark, you can thin with denatured alcohol ethanol/methanol
[16:12:05] <Aero-Tec2> 17 gallons of alcohol would not be cheap
[16:12:43] <Aero-Tec2> would I dunk it, guessing spray painting it
[16:12:48] <CaptHindsight> you can spray it on
[16:13:54] <CaptHindsight> just be careful with overspray and going on to heavy
[16:14:07] <Aero-Tec2> what about getting the anodizing dye in powder form and mixing it with alcohol?
[16:14:39] <CaptHindsight> keep it light and build up, once you get a puddle you're kind of stuck unless it's flat and it dries without running
[16:14:50] <Aero-Tec2> would that help or do any good at all?
[16:15:04] <CaptHindsight> it's only available in large volumes, like most chemicals
[16:15:55] <Aero-Tec2> anodizing powder is only in large amounts?
[16:16:09] <CaptHindsight> solvent dyes
[16:16:13] <Aero-Tec2> thought one could get it in smaller amounts
[16:16:16] <Aero-Tec2> ok
[16:16:31] <CaptHindsight> usually 20-40kg containers
[16:16:41] <Aero-Tec2> so anodizing dye would be a pigment?
[16:17:05] <CaptHindsight> dye and pigment are two different things
[16:17:39] <Aero-Tec2> I know but was wondering what the powdered anodizing dye would fall under
[16:17:51] <CaptHindsight> solvent dye
[16:18:10] <CaptHindsight> spirit dye
[16:19:47] <Aero-Tec2> but we mix them with water
[16:19:53] <CaptHindsight> most dye sources now are in India or China
[16:20:27] <CaptHindsight> typical anodize dye is water based dye, not solvent dye
[16:21:39] <Aero-Tec2> so what very cool things can one do with the leather dye based anodizing color?
[16:22:06] <CaptHindsight> or use Sharpies, the black is dye, not sure about the other colors
[16:22:11] <Aero-Tec2> make a flat bed printer from some printer hack and make cool things?
[16:22:49] <CaptHindsight> low cost inkjet printers are all water based and mostly pigment
[16:23:56] <CaptHindsight> I'd stay away from inkjet since they clog up sometimes just by looking at them
[16:24:18] <Aero-Tec2> if I did a yellow solvent based pattern and then a black water based dip would the yellow come through and show up real nice?
[16:24:40] <CaptHindsight> but airbrush or dip
[16:25:23] <CaptHindsight> if the yellow is dry then yes, the block will only color the areas/pores not filled by the yellow
[16:25:52] <CaptHindsight> time to try it yourself
[16:27:20] <Aero-Tec2> lol
[16:27:23] <Aero-Tec2> for sure
[16:28:31] <Aero-Tec2> I did not mind the anodizing part, but the washing rinsing heating dipping over and over got to be a bit much
[16:29:23] <Aero-Tec2> did not like my colors as much ether
[16:29:23] <Aero-Tec2> they did not pop
[16:29:45] <Aero-Tec2> looks good pre seal but post seal just fell flat
[16:30:05] <Aero-Tec2> so you recommendations for sealing
[16:31:21] <CaptHindsight> the solvent based will seal without washing out
[16:31:49] <JT-Shop> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFCSzHMkqL0&feature=youtu.be
[16:31:50] <Tecan> (MFCSzHMkqL0) "Rigid Tapping" by "John T" is "Tech" - Length: 0:00:55
[16:31:59] <CaptHindsight> water based is another story
[16:32:22] <Tom_itx> is most commercial solvent based?
[16:32:23] <andypugh> I am too lazy to scroll back throgh 348 lines. Did I miss much?
[16:32:30] <Tom_itx> tons
[16:32:37] <Tom_itx> if you're into anodizing
[16:32:58] <CaptHindsight> Tom_itx: it's all water based, the solvent based is all top secret
[16:32:59] <Aero-Tec2> also I had some organism grow in the dye baths that clumped the dye together blobs of color and it color of the anodizing just faded, all I could get was a lite hint of coloring
[16:33:25] <andypugh> I get a little man to do that for me. He charges £10. As far as I can tell he charges £10 whatever I bring him, big or small, single or multiple.
[16:33:38] <CaptHindsight> nice deal
[16:34:40] <andypugh> I used to send a couple of batches a week his way from the company I was a design engineer at, so I think he thinks he owes me favours. :-)
[16:35:07] <Aero-Tec2> so the company paid tons more
[16:35:21] <andypugh> They paid a more commercial rate, I suspect.
[16:35:35] <Aero-Tec2> if he was throwing it in with other stuff then it was a good deal for him
[16:35:39] <tjb1> Nice JT-Shop
[16:35:50] <andypugh> But that was on account, itemised with paperwork etc.
[16:36:38] <andypugh> Aye, it's often a "what are you doing today?" "Yes, that will do for this"
[16:38:11] <andypugh> Tonight I have mainly been working on the water pump seal on my bike.
[16:38:29] <andypugh> Which is probably a trivial job on a car.
[16:38:36] <Tom_itx> magneto all fixed?
[16:38:40] <Tom_itx> or generator..
[16:38:45] <Aero-Tec2> so I can cut down on tanks and heaters and just spray the color on and then dry and seal?
[16:39:19] <Aero-Tec2> is nickle the best sealer?
[16:39:20] <DJ9DJ> gn8
[16:39:24] <Tom_itx> might not get into the holes as good
[16:39:35] <Aero-Tec2> would like to get away fro it if possible
[16:39:41] <CaptHindsight> Aero-Tec2: yes, it's cheap and it works
[16:40:16] <CaptHindsight> Aero-Tec2: are you doing sheet or shapes?
[16:40:38] <Aero-Tec2> but you dry the part after coloring it, right?
[16:40:49] <Aero-Tec2> mostly shapes
[16:41:02] <CaptHindsight> Aero-Tec2: yes, but the solvent dries quickly
[16:41:11] <Aero-Tec2> very little sheet
[16:41:51] <CaptHindsight> Aero-Tec2: then you can dip in it in a shallow pan and let it run off
[16:42:40] <Aero-Tec2> so when I get the solvent based leather dye, how much should I dilute it?
[16:43:19] <Aero-Tec2> how long to let it soak to pick up color when dipping?
[16:43:19] <CaptHindsight> Aero-Tec2: by how much you want to lower the saturation
[16:43:29] <CaptHindsight> it's instant
[16:43:39] <andypugh> On the bike it is: All the bodywork off. Drain the oil and the watre. Drop the exhaust, remove the water pipes and the sprocket cover. Remove the clutch cover, and the clutch plates, clutch centre, clutch outer and oil pump drive chain. Remove the sump cover. Remove the oil pickup, oil pipes and drain pipe. Remve the oil pump and water pump assembly (This part involves kneeling upside down looking into the bottom of t
[16:43:39] <andypugh> engine). Then dismantle the oil pump to remove the water pump shaft. Then drive out the water pump seal. Then find that it is too flimsy to drive out, and chip it out in pieces trying not to damage the sealing properties of the housing.
[16:44:10] <Aero-Tec2> no way...really, that is so cool no wonder this is so top secret
[16:44:19] <CaptHindsight> Aero-Tec2: try a black Sharpie
[16:45:01] <CaptHindsight> yellow highlighters are pigment, fyi
[16:45:03] <Tom_itx> just don't let any drips hang on the bottom of the parts or it will not be uniform
[16:45:20] <Aero-Tec2> one could set up a cnc and use it to mark and color a part and then water base dunk it and have a cool looking part
[16:45:42] <andypugh> Tomorrow I will make a driver for the new water pump seal, and I will probably aim to re-assemble on Friday.
[16:45:57] * Tom_itx gives andypugh a smartcar to drive instead
[16:46:40] <Aero-Tec2> CaptHindsight, thanks a mill for the info
[16:46:45] <andypugh> There is a fair chance I will be taking a hire car to the bike trackday on Thursday and seeing who my real friends are :-)
[16:46:58] <Tom_itx> heh
[16:47:01] <Aero-Tec2> the colors look to be some what limited
[16:47:32] <andypugh> CNC Sharpie making an encoder: This was etch-resist but the idea is similar: http://youtu.be/c1zCG-uPaoM
[16:47:33] <Tecan> (c1zCG-uPaoM) "Encoder" by "andy pugh" is "Tech" - Length: 0:00:22
[16:47:37] <Aero-Tec2> hire car as in taxi
[16:47:37] <Tom_itx> grind up water color solids from walmart into alcohol
[16:48:29] <CaptHindsight> Aero-Tec2: I'll post a pic in a minute. i had a sample nearby
[16:51:26] <CaptHindsight> http://imagebin.org/266136
[16:55:11] <Aero-Tec2> wow, how did you do that
[16:55:15] <CaptHindsight> http://imagebin.org/266137
[16:55:25] <Aero-Tec2> also do you have a full pix of it
[16:57:49] <CaptHindsight> I'd have to take one
[16:58:12] <Aero-Tec2> so was that flat al and then put together some how or is it a chunk of al bar stock and some how printed?
[16:58:24] <Aero-Tec2> nice stuff
[16:59:48] <CaptHindsight> multi-axis inkjet
[17:00:27] <CaptHindsight> prints on shapes anywhere the heads will fit and line of sight within 2mm
[17:01:04] <Aero-Tec2> you have some cool toys to play with
[17:01:16] <Aero-Tec2> must get old hat for you
[17:01:42] <Aero-Tec2> same old same old
[17:02:03] <Aero-Tec2> here I am getting exited over it and what it can do
[17:02:19] <jmasseo> is that a commercial printer?
[17:02:22] <CaptHindsight> we make them
[17:02:32] <Aero-Tec2> cool
[17:02:45] <jmasseo> very cool
[17:02:54] <jmasseo> i was trying to think of an inexpensive way to print blank aluminum cans
[17:03:05] <jmasseo> and the idea of using an inkjet had occured to me
[17:03:14] <Aero-Tec2> I am guessing it cost more then I could afford
[17:03:44] <CaptHindsight> cans are relatively easy since it's a plane wrapped around 1 axis
[17:04:06] <CaptHindsight> well the surface on the can one typically prints
[17:04:11] <jmasseo> right
[17:04:42] <Aero-Tec2> so one can print with your printers and not have to be anodized right?
[17:05:09] <Aero-Tec2> just print on the AL or any surface
[17:05:28] <jmasseo> do you use UV curing inks?
[17:06:03] <Aero-Tec2> in looking for dyes for anodizing I ran into the high end printers and what they could do
[17:06:09] <Aero-Tec2> some very cool stuff
[17:06:30] <CaptHindsight> http://imagebin.org/266138
[17:08:24] <Aero-Tec2> all most looks like your making the printer at home there
[17:09:07] <Aero-Tec2> I am assuming your not at work
[17:10:09] <CaptHindsight> office
[17:10:37] <Aero-Tec2> cool
[17:10:48] <Aero-Tec2> thanks for taking the time to talk to us
[17:12:10] <Aero-Tec2> just thought of something
[17:12:44] <Aero-Tec2> how do you prep the anodized AL for solvent type dye?
[17:12:54] <Aero-Tec2> it is wet, very very wet
[17:13:17] <CaptHindsight> dry it first
[17:13:38] <CaptHindsight> http://imagebin.org/266139 flowers on t-slot
[17:13:40] <Aero-Tec2> they warn you not to let the part dry before it is completely done
[17:14:04] <Aero-Tec2> any recommended way?
[17:14:09] <Aero-Tec2> air knife?
[17:14:16] <CaptHindsight> thats for water based dye bath
[17:14:26] <CaptHindsight> with solvent you want all the water gone
[17:15:07] <Aero-Tec2> that is very cool
[17:15:12] <Aero-Tec2> I like it
[17:15:28] <Aero-Tec2> was that anodized or just printed on?
[17:15:36] <CaptHindsight> anodized
[17:16:00] <CaptHindsight> have to make a video for the scratch test
[17:16:07] <CaptHindsight> :)
[17:16:22] <Aero-Tec2> cool
[17:16:40] <CaptHindsight> try the airbrush, stencil or silk screen
[17:17:05] <CaptHindsight> for screen process there are inks sold that are high viscosity like honey
[17:17:26] <Aero-Tec2> is there a recommendation for nickle sealing?
[17:17:40] <Aero-Tec2> I have done screen printing
[17:17:53] <CaptHindsight> same stuff only in glycol ether
[17:18:12] <Aero-Tec2> made circuit boards and stuff
[17:18:56] <Aero-Tec2> would a screening ink take in anodizing?
[17:19:12] <Aero-Tec2> it would be to big to fit would it not
[17:19:38] <Aero-Tec2> and one would need to wash it off some how as it is some what thick
[17:20:31] <Aero-Tec2> how would the thick ink get into the pours of the anodizing?
[17:20:36] <CaptHindsight> it has to have colorant particles small enough to fit into the pores
[17:20:52] <CaptHindsight> that is the main rule
[17:21:25] <Aero-Tec2> could we buy some powder from you?
[17:21:44] <Aero-Tec2> you have access tot he good stuff...lol
[17:22:15] <Tom_itx> that's how i got my uv cureable paint.. from a local sign shop
[17:22:15] <CaptHindsight> you have the secrets, now it's your turn
[17:23:32] <Tom_itx> quite the anodizing lesson here today
[17:25:28] <Aero-Tec2> what about mixing in a UV blocker into the dye?
[17:25:41] <Aero-Tec2> any help on how and what to do there?
[17:25:58] <Aero-Tec2> the solvent based dye
[17:26:07] <Tom_itx> that doesn't go into the sealer?
[17:26:16] <Aero-Tec2> no
[17:26:44] <Aero-Tec2> the sealer is a low cost way to seal and protect from UV rays
[17:26:55] <CaptHindsight> most solvent dyes will last a few years in sunlight
[17:27:05] <Aero-Tec2> was looking for maybe a better way to go
[17:27:25] <Aero-Tec2> even with out nickle sealing?
[17:27:43] <Aero-Tec2> will the sealing make them last longer?
[17:28:10] <CaptHindsight> TiO2, ZnO
[17:28:19] <Aero-Tec2> ?
[17:28:47] <CaptHindsight> but again getting nanoparticles that size is difficult for diy
[17:28:50] <Aero-Tec2> must have dropped something on keyboard
[17:29:08] <CaptHindsight> titanium oxide and zinc oxide
[17:29:35] <CaptHindsight> there are some organic UV blockers as well but $$$
[17:30:29] <Aero-Tec2> I know how to make particles of gold
[17:31:44] <Aero-Tec2> would that be something similar?
[17:33:01] <Aero-Tec2> should have been "I know how to make nano particles of gold"
[17:33:15] <CaptHindsight> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ttlw0HRYYo
[17:33:16] <Tecan> (1ttlw0HRYYo) "Synthesis of Zinc Oxide Nanoparticles" by "Mrsec Ieg" is "Tech" - Length: 0:03:43
[17:37:54] <CaptHindsight> Aero-Tec2: there's lots of DIY things you can do, but UV blockers and ball milling pigments to 10nm is a bit out of the reach of most DIYers
[17:38:03] <Aero-Tec2> not much on telling one how to do it
[17:38:21] <CaptHindsight> you can buy them by the Kg
[17:38:48] <Aero-Tec2> but for big $$?
[17:39:26] <Aero-Tec2> if one got them do you mix with dye or do a over coat?
[17:39:28] <CaptHindsight> http://www.ssnano.com/powders/?gclid=COiLtYPj2rgCFbBDMgodrFQA1Q
[17:39:39] <CaptHindsight> http://www.nanoamor.com/nanoscale_elements__oxides__carbides___nitrides?gclid=CKbQlIXj2rgCFZBaMgodUDgAKQ
[17:39:49] <CaptHindsight> http://us-nano.com/nanopowders?gclid=CL6Y84bj2rgCFctAMgodO0gAiQ
[17:40:55] <CaptHindsight> http://www.us-nano.com/inc/sdetail/269 on sale
[17:41:15] <CaptHindsight> but now you get into making dispersions
[17:41:30] <andypugh> CaptHindsight: There has to be a market for logo-anodised hop-up motorcycle parts.
[17:41:53] <andypugh> Billet yokes anodised YZF, that sort of thing.
[17:42:03] <CaptHindsight> andypugh: yeah and car parts
[17:43:28] <CaptHindsight> we have also anodized cold roll steel with a ~1um layer of aluminum
[17:44:16] <Aero-Tec2> lol
[17:44:21] <andypugh> Have you tried anodising stainless steel? I think it might be possible.
[17:44:27] <Aero-Tec2> yep you work at a very cool place
[17:44:30] <CaptHindsight> lots of aluminum softball bats are anodized but with screen printers
[17:45:32] <Aero-Tec2> I love to learn, I do ton of thing just to learn how or why something works
[17:46:02] <andypugh> (Stainless steel is protected by an oxide layer. But I am not sure if that layer can be persuaded to be porous). Back when I was working as a Postdoc Metallurgist I decided it ought to work, but that was so long ago I can't even rememeber why I decided it was plausible :-)
[17:46:41] <Aero-Tec2> would like to know what I should do with the zinc nano parts when I get them for it to be good for UV protection for anodizing
[17:47:01] <Aero-Tec2> mix into dye or do some sort of over coating
[17:47:53] <CaptHindsight> mix, but dispersing them without have them agglomerate (clump together) is the trick
[17:48:14] <Aero-Tec2> ok
[17:48:29] <Aero-Tec2> I have seen some machine for doing just that
[17:48:30] <CaptHindsight> Aero-Tec2: you can try but you're best off just working with the shoe dyes
[17:48:35] <Aero-Tec2> very trick
[17:48:57] <CaptHindsight> high shear mixer + despersants
[17:48:58] <Tom_itx> doesn't sound like he's gonna be happy just polishing shoes
[17:49:19] <CaptHindsight> andypugh: never tried
[17:49:20] <Aero-Tec2> thought I need to do some UV protection for the leather dye
[17:49:45] <andypugh> CaptHindsight: I think you might have to invent the process :-)
[17:50:10] <Aero-Tec2> I thought SS did not oxidize
[17:50:30] <Aero-Tec2> was one of its strong points
[17:51:08] <Aero-Tec2> silver will but the oxide is conductive
[17:51:18] <Aero-Tec2> gold will not
[17:51:43] <CaptHindsight> andypugh: we can aluminum plate the SS and then anodize, same for other materials, they just need to be made conductive if they aren't already
[17:51:50] <andypugh> Stainless steel is actually passivated by a layer of chrome (di?) oxide
[17:52:27] <CaptHindsight> andypugh: just thinking about it, how thick is that layer?
[17:52:33] <andypugh> Not very
[17:52:44] <CaptHindsight> you need a few microns to get saturated colors
[17:52:49] <Aero-Tec2> wow, did not know, the oxide must be shiny and conductive
[17:54:03] <CaptHindsight> Aero-Tec2: ever see bright dip anodize, it's very shiny
[17:54:24] <Aero-Tec2> not that I know of
[17:55:36] <Tom_itx> yeah
[17:55:45] <CaptHindsight> white anodize is a real trick
[17:55:46] <andypugh> CaptHindsight: Thinking about it, "Parkerised" steel has a pretty deep hue, so perhaps it is thick enough?
[17:56:32] <Aero-Tec2> so electrically splattered AL on metal and then anodize it, that some cool tech
[17:56:42] <andypugh> Some parts at Dage were hard-anodized a curious matt-brown colour. It looked very technical, and shrugged-off hacksaw blades.
[17:56:56] <Aero-Tec2> white anodize? never heard of it
[17:59:02] <Aero-Tec2> shrugged off hack saw blades, as in a good hard effort to cut it and it killed the saw blade? that would be some cool tech as well
[17:59:37] <Aero-Tec2> hard to think anodizing could be all that
[18:00:43] <andypugh> If you pushed hard enough to crumble the anodizing you could get started and saw through it.
[18:01:04] <Aero-Tec2> ok
[18:01:36] <Aero-Tec2> CaptHindsight, can you tell us more about white anodizing?
[18:03:42] <CaptHindsight> http://imagebin.org/266144 you can't see it too well but this is anodized cold roll
[18:04:13] <CaptHindsight> people thinks it's aluminum until they pick it up
[18:06:32] <CaptHindsight> andypugh: I don't think you could get pores to fill with color and seal for the parkerized
[18:06:55] <CaptHindsight> but you might be able to produce interference patterns to produce colors
[18:07:16] <Aero-Tec2> so how do you get white anodize?
[18:07:36] <Aero-Tec2> looked it up on the net and they are saying not possible
[18:08:13] <CaptHindsight> the pores are smaller than the wavelength of light
[18:09:10] <CaptHindsight> one way is to produce a film that is not porous but is white
[18:10:23] <CaptHindsight> there is a high current process that achieves it
[18:11:13] <CaptHindsight> it ends up more like hard -III anodize than color -II anodize
[18:11:26] <Aero-Tec2> is that not called burning the anodizing?
[18:12:00] <CaptHindsight> trying to find the paper
[18:12:06] <Aero-Tec2> so high current and low temp?
[18:12:30] <CaptHindsight> plasma anodize
[18:12:32] <Aero-Tec2> low acid levels as well for higher voltages?
[18:12:53] <Aero-Tec2> never heard of it
[18:14:12] <CaptHindsight> http://www.google.com/patents/US4526671 was another way
[18:14:26] <Aero-Tec2> I love the net, it is just so much fun, take every thing but leave me my net con and computer
[18:20:31] <CaptHindsight> www.italfinish.com/public/images/documenti/aacwhiteanod.pdf found it
[18:23:49] <andypugh> Bah! "Sulphur" "Aluminium" Why can't the rest of the world learn how words are spelt?
[18:24:24] <CaptHindsight> heh
[18:24:57] <andypugh> (interesting that it is "aluminium" on the micrographs.
[18:25:34] <Aero-Tec2> it sounds like some sort of AC power supply
[18:26:07] <Aero-Tec2> the no cleaning needed reminds me of tig welding and the cleaning cycle
[18:27:11] <Aero-Tec2> so maybe pulsed power with a controlled AC component maybe the answer
[18:27:18] <andypugh> it looks lovely.
[18:27:51] <andypugh> I want everything aliminium that I own done that way, immmediately.
[18:28:29] <CaptHindsight> I haven't worked with anodizing much lately
[18:29:04] <CaptHindsight> for decorative uses there are ceramic treatments and coatings
[18:31:20] <CaptHindsight> maybe make the stainless nano-porous then coat with borosilicates and ceramic colorants
[18:31:39] <CaptHindsight> glass on steel
[18:32:03] <Aero-Tec2> I did not see there was more, just read the first page
[18:32:12] <Aero-Tec2> cool stuff
[18:33:04] <CaptHindsight> I'm already starting to forget it's been so long
[18:34:30] <CaptHindsight> andypugh: we did some motorcycle parts back in 05-06, then the economy went south so we didn't pursue it
[18:35:16] <CaptHindsight> anodized exhaust pipes with flames, case covers, rims etc
[18:35:24] <Aero-Tec2> speaking of witch I hear OC chopper is in some deep problems
[18:35:55] <Aero-Tec2> big fancy nice building and to little sale to pay for it all
[18:36:01] <andypugh> Like I care that there are fewr motorcycle-shaped sculptures to be had.
[18:36:22] <Aero-Tec2> lol
[18:36:41] <Aero-Tec2> some were bad, I would not want to own one
[18:36:55] <andypugh> I ride my bikes. Recent evidence is that I ride them more than expected.
[18:37:25] <Aero-Tec2> oh I like bikes
[18:37:36] <Aero-Tec2> used to ride when younger
[18:37:39] <Aero-Tec2> loved them
[18:38:21] <andypugh> it was nice that dropping the bodywork, exhaust and sump (oil pan?) went a lot more easily today than last time I did it 4 months ago. Not nice that I had to do it again.
[18:38:35] <Aero-Tec2> had norton choppers, hard tails and a norton commando
[18:39:27] <andypugh> Again, I like to ride my bikes, so I need something that works, rather than something that looks good.
[18:39:53] <Aero-Tec2> was into nortons, they are a English Harley
[18:40:34] <Aero-Tec2> lol one did tinker with them lots
[18:41:54] <Aero-Tec2> mine were rider, the hard tails were for resale, was not into them at all
[18:41:59] <andypugh> No offence, but I think they were rather more than the "English Harley" they won races and stuff.
[18:43:31] <andypugh> Can't find any pictures of my bike but this is me on a borrowed KTM 950 offroad bike :-)
[18:43:55] <andypugh> http://youtu.be/pNN08gpuUfw
[18:43:56] <Tecan> (pNN08gpuUfw) "Ixion @ Cadwell 2011 - Day 2 (6)" by "ktmgordo" is "Autos" - Length: 0:19:17
[18:44:00] <Aero-Tec2> they shook and sounded like a Harley, went like mad, I am a big guy and I could sit on the tank and still get the front wheel off the ground with out trying much
[18:44:06] <Tom_itx> i've seen plenty of pictures of the insides of your bike
[18:44:56] <andypugh> Yeah, too many.,
[18:45:43] <Aero-Tec2> had to go easy on the throttle or your doing a wheelie
[18:46:00] <andypugh> it was a lovely bike.
[18:47:19] <andypugh> Of the bikes I have taken round that track it was a lot better than the Triumph Tiger, and the _Tiger_ was better than the Moto Guzzi 1100 race-rep
[18:47:50] <andypugh> If you have the patience, I get an R6 on the brakes later :-)
[18:50:24] <andypugh> This is the middle group on a track day on _completely_ the wrong bike :-) I normally ride my R1 in the fast group. This is the bike I am on: http://www.ktm950.info
[18:51:30] <andypugh> (red mist descends at 8:39) :-)
[19:00:57] <tjb1> andypugh: that guy in the red leathers is fast
[19:01:16] <tjb1> passed you at around 11:55
[19:01:43] <andypugh> Yeah, but, I am on the erong bike, Grommit!
[19:02:49] <andypugh> He is probably in the wrong group.
[19:06:28] <tjb1> what did that cost
[19:07:17] <CaptHindsight> Shars grr, got ER20 hex collet wrench when I needed a hook type
[19:09:30] <CaptHindsight> andypugh: sorry, I meant spanner :)
[19:12:20] <andypugh> I am actually doing 2:13 laps on that video. I normally do 1:50 on my own bike. For contrast this is the bike's owner: http://youtu.be/m-99ZQWqSbM and this is near the lap record: http://youtu.be/TFyn7wYbTb4. At least a factor of 2 there. But who is having the most fun is the question.
[19:12:20] <Tecan> (m-99ZQWqSbM) "Ixion @ Cadwell (7)" by "ktmgordo" is "Autos" - Length: 0:17:35
[19:14:34] <tjb1> andypugh: what does it cost to get on track
[19:16:36] <andypugh> £180 for 2 full days plus a 1 hour evening sessin
[19:17:45] <andypugh> I would love to see some slow-group footage, some of them are slower on the track than on the road, bless them.
[19:41:17] <andypugh> FWIW I am the guy on his commuter bike with number plates who is overtaken at 07:30 here: http://youtu.be/DKdqA79_oZQ?t=7m30s
[19:41:32] <Tecan> (DKdqA79_oZQ) "Ixion @ Cadwell 2012 Day2 (Part1)" by "JCsteelie600" is "Autos" - Length: 0:07:59
[19:42:14] <andypugh> (the guy taking the video is on the same bike, but race-spec. ie slick tyres, no lights, no battery..)
[19:47:40] <Valen> batteries are handy
[19:47:54] <Valen> I want to make up an A123 pack for my missus
[19:48:33] <andypugh> The link did't work. I appear in shot at 7:30 being overtaken. Then I appear to leave the race-bike for dead on the corner exit. The corner I crashed horribly at a lap later. Hmmmm
[19:48:43] <Valen> lol
[19:50:50] <andypugh> There is a lesson there. I am not bad out of Barn, I am unusually good out of Barn and should not try any hardert there. Because it hurts.
[19:50:53] <andypugh> A lot
[19:51:08] <Valen> you ok buddy?
[19:51:29] <Valen> nothing broken i hope
[19:51:34] <andypugh> I am now, 12 months later. But it took 4 months to walk normally.
[19:52:04] <andypugh> I have never broken a bone. I am made of rubber.
[19:52:12] <Valen> wow nasty man
[19:52:15] <Jymmm> too bad some of the brain damage remains.
[19:52:31] <Valen> you know what doctors call motorcycle riders right?
[19:52:52] <andypugh> I almost wish that I did break bones, because they heal faster than joints,
[19:52:57] <mozmck> I hear they call motorcycles "donorcycles"
[19:53:09] <Valen> they call the riders "organ donors"
[19:53:45] <andypugh> Yeah, yeah. I am a doctor too, it doesn't make you right.
[19:53:57] <Valen> lol
[19:54:12] <Valen> my missus had her first prang 2 weeks ago or so
[19:54:20] <Valen> been riding for 10+ years
[19:54:36] <Valen> thankfully she just put her mirror through some other guys tail light
[19:54:49] <Valen> hmmm, well her first "at fault" accident anyway
[19:58:02] <andypugh> The track crash was the first time my bike had been down. I reckon 85,000 miles is probably a record for an R1 (and back to the video, that turn of speed is pretty impressive for an 85k mile bike)
[20:19:29] <Aero-Tec2> is that the one your fixing all the time?
[20:31:09] <andypugh> Yes. It was really quite reliable until this year.
[20:32:04] <andypugh> And it is still astonishingly fast.
[20:33:37] <andypugh> For £4k I can buy an exact replica with 10% of the mileage. I probably should
[20:38:58] <andypugh> Why am I bothering? Identical bike, 16,000 miles to my 90,000 miles: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2004-YAMAHA-YZF-R1-04-GREY-SILVER-5VY-04-NICE-BIKE-AND-GREAT-CONDITION-/330973617224?pt=UK_Motorcycles&hash=item4d0f909c48
[20:50:14] <Tom_itx> spare parts?
[20:53:30] <Jymmm> DAMN, it's so hard to get rid of shit.
[20:54:33] <tjb1> Anyone have alibre?
[20:57:53] <andypugh> tjb1: Yes
[20:59:40] <andypugh> I just offered the owner "You turn up at thr trackday, we share, if I crash I buy it, if you crash, I might buy it, and I pay for the reackday". It will be interesting to see what the response is.
[21:02:04] <Jymmm> andypugh: what if nobody crashes?
[21:02:41] <andypugh> Then I buy the bike at the agreed price.
[21:02:46] <Jymmm> =)
[21:03:07] <Jymmm> Can anyone see any reason to keep IDE based systems/parts?
[21:03:20] <andypugh> Nostagia?
[21:03:29] <Jymmm> other than that
[21:03:43] <Jymmm> They all work, hard for me to just toss out.
[21:04:09] <andypugh> They may be immensely valuable in 50 years for data recovery?
[21:04:24] <Jymmm> I have a USB to IDE/SATA adapter
[21:04:40] <CaptHindsight> nah, they will just print an adapter
[21:05:24] <andypugh> They contain elements thay may, in the future, be more valuable than the cost of keeping them in your loft.
[21:05:44] <Jymmm> andypugh: huh?
[21:06:29] <andypugh> What is the cost of keeping them in a corner of your house you never go?
[21:07:25] <Jymmm> andypugh: There is no room now, thus the major cleanout.
[21:07:43] <CaptHindsight> just don't leave them within a few feet of the ground. I just lost some old parts from flooding last month.
[21:08:05] <andypugh> No room at all? Not in a bag buried in the garden?
[21:10:58] <andypugh> My point is that long-term the base elements we are now squandering may turn out to be very valuable. We are very close to running out ot Indium (part of the only known transparent conductor, so important for touchscreens).
[21:13:27] <Aero-Tec2> what about using old hardware to run linuxcnc on
[21:13:48] <Aero-Tec2> do a 3d printer or some other cool things that is cnc related
[21:14:03] <Aero-Tec2> you have a free box
[21:14:21] <Aero-Tec2> or do you only have the card?
[21:14:45] <andypugh> Shorter term, appen as maybe. But there is far newer known-good hardware that fits the bill
[21:14:50] <Aero-Tec2> looks like you have complete systems
[21:15:04] <CaptHindsight> somebody was saying that the Goodwill's were no longer taking PC's
[21:15:30] <Aero-Tec2> I would take them
[21:15:42] <Aero-Tec2> love old hardware
[21:16:06] <Aero-Tec2> I have some running 286s
[21:16:15] <andypugh> I can see that. I doubt that there is anyone who wants one who doesn't have _something_
[21:17:08] <Aero-Tec2> not sure what your getting at there
[21:17:10] <andypugh> Yeah, I love the 1916 truck and the 1934 lathe :-)
[21:17:20] <CaptHindsight> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcG3acyUw6s
[21:17:26] <Aero-Tec2> I have new multi core systems as well
[21:17:34] <CaptHindsight> Recycling computer parts in India.
[21:17:52] <Aero-Tec2> I just like to collect tech stuff
[21:18:21] <Aero-Tec2> I bet if I looked I have a apple IIe here
[21:18:27] <Aero-Tec2> had a few of them
[21:18:57] <andypugh> Aero-Tec2: I can see how charities have lost interest in handling PCs. You can get hold of them almost for free noe, and if you do it isn't the charities job to support it.
[21:19:32] <Aero-Tec2> also have a old single board sinclair with hex keyboard and tape drive some where here as well
[21:20:59] <Aero-Tec2> ok got it
[21:21:12] <Aero-Tec2> still love old tech
[21:21:28] <Aero-Tec2> new tech is nice as well
[21:23:20] <Aero-Tec2> it would be cool to get old tech running and set it up doing.. I don't know, maybe 3d printing or router or something useful, new some new blood into doing some cnc
[21:23:25] <andypugh> I wonder what happens to the parts they chisel off?
[21:23:52] <Aero-Tec2> some kid would love to get a cool cnc toy for Christmas
[21:25:03] <Aero-Tec2> with 3d printers guys could make robo arms and other cool robo things and run with free or near free old junk
[21:25:42] <Aero-Tec2> I just hate to see working systems go down with out a fight
[21:26:03] <andypugh> I think that it is a net good that that this stuff is recycled. But the workers need to only die a little bit doing the job.
[21:27:10] <Aero-Tec2> I bet we could get tons more kids into cool high end jobs if we give them some cool old tech based cnc toys, cheap and fun they learn and get interested and the bank was not broken doing it
[21:27:23] <andypugh> I die 8 hours a day for the job I am paid for. It is only a matter of price and numbers.
[21:27:49] <Aero-Tec2> getting kids playing with them is a much better recycle choice
[21:28:13] <mutilator> anyone use aspire? if say i create a circle, how do i make that a raised circle, meaning, how do i clear the area outside the object i have
[21:28:41] <Aero-Tec2> yes the recycling that is done over there is not good at all, deadly even with some of the jobs
[21:29:27] <jdh> mutilator: in cut2d (same company), you select the background first, then the circle then pocket
[21:29:50] <mutilator> nvm
[21:29:59] <mutilator> have to create a 3d shape from it
[21:30:03] <mutilator> from the vector
[21:30:13] <Aero-Tec2> there needs to be non profits that gets old tech running and does some 3d printing and sell very cool toys for cheap
[21:30:27] <Aero-Tec2> I bet one could even make money doing that
[21:30:39] <Aero-Tec2> free computers
[21:30:57] <Aero-Tec2> print the parts, most of them
[21:31:39] <Aero-Tec2> cheap china motors and controllers and you have some super cheap fun
[21:33:27] <Aero-Tec2> how many others will fall in love with cnc if they can play and learn on a system that if they screw up big time is cheap and easy to get back up and running
[21:33:56] <Aero-Tec2> they could crash and bash as much as needed and have a ton of fun
[21:35:05] <Aero-Tec2> I will shut up now, just seams a waste to see that cool old tech dye when it could be so use full. great learning platforms
[21:38:14] <Aero-Tec2> one could even run and play with dos cnc based control systems.... hard to keep shut up. will try harder...lol
[21:39:26] <CaptHindsight> anyone use these yet? http://www.automationtechnologiesinc.com/products-page/nema-34-dc-servo-motor/skewed-rear-shaft
[21:40:43] <Aero-Tec2> yes
[21:40:46] <CaptHindsight> constant torque 1.6 Nm, peak 8 Nm, but no power curve chart
[21:40:54] <Aero-Tec2> got them on my lathe
[21:41:09] <Aero-Tec2> great motors, work very well
[21:41:35] <CaptHindsight> Aero-Tec2: what drives are you using?
[21:41:38] <Aero-Tec2> been using them for many years now, over 5
[21:41:39] <jdh> what do you drive them with?
[21:41:47] <Aero-Tec2> gecko 340
[21:41:59] <Aero-Tec2> I think it is the 340
[21:42:33] <jdh> they are step/dir?
[21:42:35] <CaptHindsight> http://www.automationtechnologiesinc.com/products-page/dc-servo-motor-driver/geckodrive-servo-motor-driver-g320x
[21:42:41] <Aero-Tec2> I may have the 90 volt versions
[21:43:02] <Aero-Tec2> could be 320
[21:43:08] <Aero-Tec2> will have to look
[21:43:42] <Aero-Tec2> 340 and it is the 72 volt version
[21:43:54] <Aero-Tec2> 72 volt motor I mean
[21:44:07] <Aero-Tec2> gecko is only good for 80 volts
[21:45:04] <Aero-Tec2> have then on my lathe, run through a planetary gear system
[21:45:14] <Aero-Tec2> not cheap way to go but nice
[21:46:23] <Aero-Tec2> lathe has a 2 hp motor, I upped it to 3 hp when I replaced it
[21:47:04] <Aero-Tec2> the old motor smoked
[21:48:00] <Aero-Tec2> my shop is a non smoking area so it had to go as it refused to quiet smoking
[21:48:01] <Jymmm> Does this regulator look ok? http://www.ntxtools.com/network-tool-warehouse/VCT-0781-9851.html
[21:48:06] <CaptHindsight> Aero-Tec2: how hot do the motors get under heavy load?
[21:49:07] <Aero-Tec2> mine have only been just warm, as in barely warm to touch
[21:49:34] <Aero-Tec2> they do not see real heavy loads
[21:49:59] <CaptHindsight> I'll be running them close to their continuous limit, I wonder how they arrived at their power ratings
[21:50:01] <andypugh> Aero-Tec2: Direct 3D prnt from Minecraft (whicj I have never played, but Wikipedia tells me is recreational 3D CAD/
[21:50:17] <Aero-Tec2> the planetary gears help with loading of motor
[21:50:39] <CaptHindsight> Aero-Tec2: I'm driving a 90:1 worm with them
[21:51:26] <andypugh> Jymmm: What gas are you regulating?
[21:51:42] <Aero-Tec2> with the lathe the Z get the heavy use, have not felt it get hot at all
[21:52:01] <Jymmm> andypugh: nitrogen and I need pressure not volume.
[21:52:07] <CaptHindsight> Aero-Tec2: what type of lathe?
[21:52:09] <Aero-Tec2> I would guess if you did run them hard for long time they would
[21:52:15] <Aero-Tec2> grizzly
[21:52:24] <Aero-Tec2> 14 in sling I think
[21:52:29] <CaptHindsight> bridgeport size?
[21:52:29] <Aero-Tec2> gap bad
[21:52:35] <Aero-Tec2> 6 foot bed
[21:52:53] <CaptHindsight> sorry you said lathe
[21:54:12] <Aero-Tec2> the lathe is almost 25 years old
[21:54:13] <andypugh> Looks OK then, though http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-SMC-ITV2030-402N-DIK00-ELECTRO-PNEUMATIC-DIGITAL-REGULATOR-64125-/290771365568?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43b352eec0 are more interesting.
[21:55:23] <andypugh> Time to be asleep,
[21:56:31] <Aero-Tec2> night night
[21:56:37] <Aero-Tec2> lol
[21:59:25] <CaptHindsight> I'm looking for analog 10V DC servo drives, not Step and DIR
[22:00:49] <CaptHindsight> are all the gecko drives Step and Dir?
[22:01:11] <Aero-Tec2> I believe so
[22:01:54] <Guest28952> I have a question, hopefully simple. My EMC2 model is cutting smaller than it is actually showing as size on the screen. The whole cut is 2.10" X 2.10" but the actual cut size is 1.10" X 1.10" What setting in "stepconf" do I need to change?
[22:02:24] <Aero-Tec2> so what is a 10v drive system, I have heard of them used as speed controls for spindles but not as axis controllers
[22:03:31] <Aero-Tec2> increase the steps per unit, in your case it looks like per inch
[22:04:18] <Guest28952> Nice! will try thank-you Aero-Tec2 I have been banging my head against the wall trying to find an answer
[22:05:03] <Aero-Tec2> you need a 52.38095% increase in the number of steps per unit it look like, there abouts
[22:05:35] <Aero-Tec2> your welcome
[22:08:27] <Aero-Tec2> CaptHindsight, what is it your doing with the servo motor and the worm gear unit?
[22:08:42] <Aero-Tec2> sounds like it is for a mill
[22:09:11] <CaptHindsight> I build multi-axis stages
[22:09:13] <Aero-Tec2> 4th axis, but that would or should not be real heavy use
[22:09:31] <Aero-Tec2> got some pix?
[22:09:35] <CaptHindsight> building a 5-axis right now
[22:09:44] <Aero-Tec2> would love to see what your making
[22:10:07] <Aero-Tec2> I have done a 4 axis and would love to add the 5th
[22:10:26] <Aero-Tec2> my 4th is floating right now
[22:10:36] <CaptHindsight> linear motors for xyz, 0.001 deg repeatability on the A and B
[22:10:41] <Aero-Tec2> it goes from laying down to standing up as needed
[22:11:30] <CaptHindsight> http://www.elmomc.com/products/elmo-analog-servo-drives-main.htm these are +-10VDC input, for example
[22:11:48] <CaptHindsight> just like a AC servo amp vs a stepper drive
[22:12:47] <Aero-Tec2> and this is used on a rotary axis?
[22:13:09] <Aero-Tec2> with encoder of course
[22:13:11] <CaptHindsight> yes
[22:13:20] <CaptHindsight> if i don't use AC servos
[22:13:36] <Aero-Tec2> did not know a 10v controller could be used that way
[22:13:46] <CaptHindsight> 360K count per rev encoder
[22:14:23] <Aero-Tec2> so it would stop the motor hum?
[22:14:40] <Aero-Tec2> as the motor would go to position and stop completely
[22:14:46] <CaptHindsight> still noisy, even if AC servo
[22:15:14] <Aero-Tec2> would not the 10v controller stop the hum?
[22:15:15] <CaptHindsight> the linear motors are dead silent, it's the bearings that make the sounds
[22:15:47] <Aero-Tec2> got pix of your setup and axis build?
[22:15:50] <CaptHindsight> you means the lovely sounds of a squealing stepper?
[22:16:24] <Aero-Tec2> the noise a servo makes when stopped
[22:16:44] <CaptHindsight> when they can't settle
[22:16:58] <Aero-Tec2> the hum as the driver keeps it dancing
[22:17:17] <CaptHindsight> usually quite when tuned
[22:17:42] <Aero-Tec2> but then sluggish
[22:17:52] <CaptHindsight> but I'm not driving cutting tools
[22:18:39] <Aero-Tec2> any chance of some pix?
[22:18:56] <Aero-Tec2> are you home now?
[22:19:01] <CaptHindsight> http://www.servo2go.com/product.php?ID=102297&cat=10020&sub=10002
[22:19:26] <CaptHindsight> still working
[22:19:42] <Aero-Tec2> ok
[22:20:23] <Aero-Tec2> I was wanting to see some pix of your 4 and 5 axis unit, and your mill
[22:20:53] <CaptHindsight> which mill?
[22:20:59] <Aero-Tec2> do you have a lathe?
[22:21:09] <Aero-Tec2> lol all of them I guess
[22:21:16] <CaptHindsight> heh
[22:21:17] <Aero-Tec2> how many do you have
[22:21:37] <Aero-Tec2> are you doing this for your work place?
[22:21:54] <Aero-Tec2> making all the 4 and 5 axis units
[22:22:06] <CaptHindsight> both, home and work
[22:22:11] <Aero-Tec2> cool
[22:23:10] <Aero-Tec2> so a high tech printer maker is using home brew 4 and 5 axis units for production of printers?
[22:23:15] <Aero-Tec2> that is so cool
[22:23:39] <Aero-Tec2> was that all your doing?
[22:25:30] <CaptHindsight> http://www.servo2go.com/product.php?ID=101386&cat= Nema 34 of your size generally cost a bit more
[22:28:26] <CaptHindsight> that's why I wonder how they get their ratings, but Automation Technologies is nearby me
[22:35:06] <Aero-Tec2> that servo 2 go sure seams very high priced
[22:42:42] <Aero-Tec2> if you have money to burn then go for it, but I do recommend
[22:42:42] <Aero-Tec2> Automation Technology Inc, they had very good stuff when I bought from them years ago when he called himself kelinginc
[22:42:57] <CaptHindsight> yes, he's nearby
[22:43:29] <Aero-Tec2> cool
[22:43:54] <CaptHindsight> they are so inexpensive if they don't work for one application they will find another home
[22:44:42] <Aero-Tec2> so any chance of some pix of what you have made and your 4 and 5 axis system?
[22:44:59] <CaptHindsight> not tonight
[22:45:12] <Aero-Tec2> they are good stuff, I have no complaints with his stuff yet
[22:45:20] <Aero-Tec2> ok
[22:45:50] <Aero-Tec2> I do run production runs, not all day every day
[22:46:18] <Aero-Tec2> so not real heavy use but they have held up so far for many years
[22:47:40] <Aero-Tec2> I used his steppers on my mill
[22:49:06] <Aero-Tec2> also have his toroid power supplies for both lathe and mill
[22:50:44] <Aero-Tec2> only complaint was blowing breakers when turning on power, the caps are big and make larger power surge when turned on
[22:51:49] <Aero-Tec2> moved rectifier bridge and added some wire length to wire them back in and that stopped that problem
[22:51:53] <CaptHindsight> what is it on, a 120V 20A?
[22:52:34] <Aero-Tec2> the wire was enough resistance to lessen the serge
[22:52:54] <Aero-Tec2> one was, the other was 240v
[22:53:39] <Aero-Tec2> will have to check amperage of the 240 volt
[22:53:52] <CaptHindsight> inrush current ratings on circuit breakers, I've seen them welded when undersized
[22:55:14] <Aero-Tec2> the bridge recs were wired direct to caps
[22:55:49] <Aero-Tec2> added about a foot of wire round trip and that worked
[22:56:35] <Aero-Tec2> took the snap out of it
[22:57:46] <Aero-Tec2> the mill was 1000 watt, the lathe was 1500 or 1600 or so, something like that
[22:57:57] <Aero-Tec2> will have to look it up again
[22:58:09] <Aero-Tec2> could have been 1800
[22:58:30] <Aero-Tec2> I over sized the power supplies
[22:59:25] <CaptHindsight> when you add the spot welder you'll be happy
[23:05:05] <Aero-Tec2> have a spot welder as well
[23:05:08] <Aero-Tec2> big one
[23:05:23] <Aero-Tec2> it was 72 volt
[23:05:46] <Aero-Tec2> he had a 1440 watt one at 72 volt but it is not like mine
[23:06:04] <Aero-Tec2> mine has a 5 volt supply as well
[23:06:30] <Aero-Tec2> would have to look and see what the wattage is
[23:09:12] <Aero-Tec2> so would it not be a very good use of old computers to get them doing cnc type work?
[23:09:35] <Aero-Tec2> get kids involved, both big and small
[23:10:06] <Aero-Tec2> put the old stuff to good use, run them till there dead
[23:10:38] <Aero-Tec2> mesh the parts together of the dead one to get them back and run them dead again
[23:11:17] <Aero-Tec2> killing any working computer just seams to be a crime
[23:13:03] <Aero-Tec2> all I can see is the missed learning experiences they could have provided on the cheap
[23:30:16] <nspiel> this is interesting
[23:30:23] <nspiel> saw this on cncnzone:
[23:30:29] <nspiel> I just finished a fresh install of emc2 and simply configured it through the step config menu. Below is what I did and how others can fix it in the future if they find this forum post on google. I opened a terminal, logged in as root (sudo -s), navigated to usr/bin (cd usr/bin), and started stepconf (./stepconf). Once that started up I went through the instructions and where it says 0x378 I changed that to the first I/O address (in
[23:30:59] <nspiel> oops that didnt work
[23:31:01] <nspiel> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/linuxcnc_formerly_emc2/121124-pci_parallel_port_card.html
[23:35:58] <CaptHindsight> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16815166005 $13.99
[23:36:42] <nspiel> people before said netmos didnt work
[23:36:55] <CaptHindsight> nspiel: did you try that board yet?
[23:37:11] <nspiel> nope
[23:37:37] <Aero-Tec2> so I guess I am all alone in thinking old tech can be reused for running cnc stuff like 3D printers and maybe some other things, control based things, super cheap CPU power
[23:39:09] <CaptHindsight> nspiel: for $13 I'll try one and report back
[23:39:20] <nspiel> great!
[23:40:13] <nspiel> here is the one i am thinking of getting
[23:40:14] <nspiel> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16815158293
[23:44:02] <pcw_home> If that doesn't work it can probably be made to work
[23:44:02] <pcw_home> (unlike the 98XX NetMOS based cards which dont implement EPP correctly)
[23:47:13] <nspiel> which one can be made work
[23:48:50] <pcw_home> the one with the Sunix chip has possibilities, anything with a NetMOS chip will never do EPP
[23:54:02] <CaptHindsight> the Rosewill RC-302 uses MOSCHIP MCS9805CV http://www.moschip.com/
[23:57:23] <CaptHindsight> pcw_home: whats your highest power BLDC driver? 7i39?