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[01:10:21] <tjtr33> I've been playing with 'bitlash-commander' a web based display of arduino pins. Its _like_ pyvcp & gladevcp, you build control panels, but on the web or a LAN.
[01:10:29] <tjtr33> I also am looking at RockHopper, a web server for linuxcnc.
[01:10:38] <tjtr33> I think that publishing HAL pin states on a web server makes for nice user interfaces to HAL based systems. any thoughts?
[01:10:39] <tjtr33> Hal and a web server makes for powerful PLC like apps visible to anyone on the LAN.
[01:11:32] <tjtr33> http://forum.arduino.cc/index.php?topic=134565.0
[01:33:02] <archivist> tjtr33, is there an easy way to get the hal pin info?
[01:34:50] <tjtr33> not sure what you mean, but the hal info is available thru 'halcmd show pin' for example
[01:35:16] <tjtr33> which doesnt involve linuxcnc
[01:37:54] <archivist> I made a web ERD tool some years ago, with some finishing and changing its source data it may be usable
[01:38:47] <tjtr33> tomp looks up ERD
[01:39:24] <archivist> http://www.archivist.info/erd/erd.php?drawing=1
[01:40:10] <tjtr33> it _is_ entity relationship diagram, thx!
[01:40:13] <archivist> you can mode the blocks, then redraw, line drawing code needs moving from php to js to make it "live"
[01:40:22] <archivist> move
[01:42:29] <tjtr33> ah, thats applicable to hal diagrams, cool.
[01:42:40] <tjtr33> but what i'm speaking of now is just seeing hal pins on a web page,
[01:42:42] <tjtr33> like leds for outputs, or buttons for inputs, meters for analog data, published on a javascript/gui web page
[01:43:16] <tjtr33> so i can have a process plant controlled by hal, and see the pressure valve setting at home on the web
[01:44:29] <tjtr33> hal doing the work, web page showing me status, allowing me overrides/tuning
[01:45:46] <tjtr33> hey that redraw works nice!
[01:47:23] <archivist> multi user :)
[01:47:55] <archivist> that is you real problem with web is other users
[01:48:41] <tjtr33> ah, maybe permissions? all can view, only superuser/admin can manipulate?
[01:49:56] <tjtr33> archivist, thx, i gotta be up in 5hr, so bye for now, your work is nice
[02:08:18] <DJ9DJ> moin
[03:49:19] <RyanS> lol, my new 4x6 bandsaw motor went kaboom on second cut...
[06:03:41] <jthornton> Horrible Freight band saw?
[06:26:48] <jthornton> anyone know where I put my book on anodizing?
[06:44:01] <archivist_herron> in the middle of the pile 42 on the floor
[06:51:08] <jthornton> more likely piled on some elevated flat surface
[06:57:41] <archivist_herron> just catalogue all the piles...
[06:58:08] <skunkworks> archivist_herron, did you see
http://electronicsam.com/images/emco/linuxcnc_configs/full-half_step_test/
[06:58:34] <skunkworks> heh - I meant
http://electronicsam.com/images/emco/Screenshot.png
[06:59:28] <archivist_herron> you could gate the switch over to an equal phase
[06:59:45] <archivist_herron> no glitch then
[07:00:05] <skunkworks> sure.. but in hal?
[07:00:19] <archivist_herron> I dont see why not :)
[07:00:31] <skunkworks> we have jogged it around quite a bit... no issues. you can't hear it switch over.
[07:00:55] <skunkworks> heh - I think that would require a little coding..
[07:00:57] <skunkworks> maybe
[07:01:42] <archivist_herron> I think it needs a comparator and a latch mebe
[07:16:41] <skunkworks> I suppose - compare the 4 or so areas the patterns overlap and only allow the switch over then...
[07:17:01] <skunkworks> but... If it seems to work as it...
[07:17:51] <skunkworks> *is
[07:20:55] <archivist_herron> I wonder if you get it losing/gaining a bit if you dont, only a good amount of testing will show
[10:19:28] <jesseg> I'm trying to build lastnight's git of LinuxCNC on Slackware 13.37. I configured fine with --prefix=/usr --enable-simulator --without-libmodbus, then I did make and it went fine for a while but then halted with a bunch of errors like libreadline.so: undefined reference to `tgetflag'
[10:19:40] <jesseg> 32 bit btw.
[10:20:12] <cpresser> jesseg: most likely the headers for libreadline dont match the binarys
[10:20:39] <cpresser> at least the headers used while compiling linuxcnc
[10:20:55] <jesseg> yeah.. Have you heard of any possible fix?
[10:21:32] <cpresser> searching for those files
[10:21:41] <cpresser> or purge libreadline and re-install it
[10:22:08] <cpresser> perhaps you have two or more versions installed
[10:22:21] <jesseg> From my google hair pulling last night, I think it may be that it needs to be linked specifically against libncurses or libreadline because they both have functions by the same name, so by default neither one is linked..
[10:22:54] <jesseg> yeah that makes sense - I'll try again to find the source for readline
[10:23:33] <cpresser> get a distribution with a packet manager which takes care of that :D
[10:23:36] <jesseg> found it I think
[10:23:39] <jesseg> haahaha :D
[10:23:45] <cpresser> (just kidding, slackware is fine)
[10:23:49] <jesseg> sometimes :P
[10:23:56] <cpresser> (but you will have to live with such problems)
[10:24:21] <jesseg> I've been using slackware for around 10 years now.
[10:25:32] <cpresser> in that case you should be used to such problems :)
[10:27:03] <jesseg> The lack of a package manager is a little annoying. From time to time I've tried gentoo, ubuntu, kubuntu, mint, and stuff, but I generally get really annoyed by all the "Protect the user from themselves" features and "Automatic IP configuration" and stuff which get in the way and slow me down.
[10:27:20] <jesseg> and, I've had cases where the package manager gets broken then I'm totally lost :P
[10:27:59] <jesseg> Okay, latest readline installed..
[10:28:34] <jesseg> On linuxcnc compile, should I run make clean between configure and make? I thought one page said I should, but the post-configure help blurb doesn't say to
[10:29:28] <jesseg> Gotta go. I'll check back here later. Time for work!
[10:41:07] <cpresser> jesseg: since you installed another version of libreadline, you should re-run configure
[11:01:35] <jesseg2> LinuxCNC seems to want bwidget 1.7 package. The dialog pops up when I run it, and says it can't find it, and to install t he debian package with apt-get.
[11:01:50] <jesseg2> Since I'm using slackware I aint got apt get ;)
[11:02:14] <cradek> you have chosen a hard way, grasshopper
[11:02:28] <jesseg2> so I downloaded bwidgets 1.7 and it's got a bunch of tcl files but no installer script and I can't figure out where to put them so that LinuxCNC finds them
[11:02:50] <jesseg2> Where does LinuxCNC look to find the bwidget 1.7 tcl files?
[11:03:00] <jesseg2> or package config file?
[11:04:02] <cradek> it probably just uses the tcl scheme for importing packages, so maybe the answer to your question will depend on how you built your tcl?
[11:04:34] <cradek> I could tell you the path of bwidget on my system (by querying my package manager) but I doubt that will really help you make yours work.
[11:04:52] <jesseg2> if it is easy for you to do I would be very grateful!
[11:05:44] <cradek> http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=jd2Xhzy9
[11:05:59] <jesseg2> Thanks
[11:06:51] <cradek> but like I said, matching my path probably isn't going to help
[11:07:35] <jesseg2> LOL I don't think I have it installed...!
[11:07:43] <jesseg2> it being tcltk
[11:10:00] <jesseg2> Yeah I don't have any of those files.
[11:10:07] <jesseg2> so I need to install tcltk
[11:10:09] <jesseg2> Thanks!
[11:16:16] <Mikegg> sweet. just got a used emco pc mill 55 for $250
[11:16:36] <Mikegg> well, $300 with taxes + buyers premium
[11:17:09] <jesseg2> cool
[11:18:02] <pcw_home> is that the same as Skunkworks lathes?
[11:18:12] <Mikegg> yeah, same brand
[11:18:45] <pcw_home> same hardware?
[11:18:53] <Mikegg> https://www.onlinepros.com/servlet/List.do?auctionId=143&page=info&lotId=65
[11:19:32] <Mikegg> I'm not really sure. He sent me the link where you can drive the lathe straight from the parallel port with a little tweaking
[11:20:14] <skunkworks> Mikegg, with a little tweeking - mean removing a chip on the interface board?
[11:20:42] <Mikegg> was that it? ugh. well that will be a learning opportunity
[11:20:47] <Mikegg> :)
[11:20:53] <skunkworks> This?
http://www.maxton.com/ebay/emco/EMCO%20Compact%205PC%20Conversion%20to%20Mach3.pdf
[11:21:06] <skunkworks> I got linuxcnc working with the original electronics...
[11:21:12] <skunkworks> no hacking at all
[11:21:29] <jdh> where did you find all of those?
[11:23:23] <skunkworks> Mikegg,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_LxyosF2yc
[11:24:06] <Mikegg> ah ok. so removing the chip is for Mach3. EMC2 works directly
[11:25:41] <skunkworks> it does now... (I setup linuxcnc to output a latching signal.) plus I am running it with phase drive as the original software did. (seems to work better)
[11:26:05] <jesseg2> What is phase drive?
[11:26:15] * jesseg2 <-- eager learner
[11:26:19] <skunkworks> Mikegg, it would be cool - it it is the same drive/interface - to test it.
[11:26:32] <skunkworks> http://electronicsam.com/images/emco/linuxcnc_configs/
[11:27:01] <skunkworks> jesseg: instead of step/dir - I am controling each coil of the stepper.
[11:27:15] <Connor> skunkworks: You have one of those enco's working ? Cool
[11:27:16] <Mikegg> awesome. I will check it out and let you know
[11:27:22] <skunkworks> http://electronicsam.com/images/emco/Waveform.svg
[11:27:25] <jesseg2> Oh, OK -- from within linux cnc?
[11:27:33] <skunkworks> tested about 3 so far..
[11:27:41] <CaptHindsight> http://electronicsam.com/ lol
[11:27:43] <skunkworks> jesseg2, yes
[11:27:48] <jesseg2> cool
[11:27:54] <Connor> skunkworks: what's the swing / bed travel ?
[11:28:17] <skunkworks> 5 by 14.something iirc
[11:28:21] <CaptHindsight> "You too can now buy colors for your web site for just pennies a pixel. "
[11:29:01] <skunkworks> CaptHindsight, javascript class from years ago... never took it down. :)
[11:29:36] <jesseg2> How do you synchronize to the lathe spindle?
[11:29:48] <jesseg2> or is it also run by a big high speed stepper?
[11:30:02] <skunkworks> jesseg2, these lathes have a spindle encoder. (index + 100ppr)
[11:30:05] <CaptHindsight> skunkworks: thought I had found an internet wormhole to an earlier time :)
[11:30:40] <jesseg2> skunkworks, oh cool. So LinuxCNC reads that and feeds it into it's reatlime guts and keeps things in step
[11:30:42] <skunkworks> jessegg2: so linuxcnc can gear the spindle to the axis
[11:30:48] <jesseg2> yeah!
[11:30:52] <skunkworks> yep
[11:31:37] <skunkworks> Mikegg, I also have a experimental config that switches from half stepping to full stepping...
[11:32:20] <skunkworks> http://electronicsam.com/images/emco/betterstep.png
[11:32:23] <Connor> skunkworks: You got one heck of a find with those machines.
[11:32:27] <Mikegg> like, depending on feedrate?
[11:32:40] <skunkworks> at around 16ipm - it swtches from half stepping to full stepping
[11:32:49] <Mikegg> that's neat
[11:32:54] <skunkworks> I think that is similar to what te original software did.
[11:33:19] <skunkworks> It runs fine full step all the time - but this allows for higher resolution at lower cutting feeds.
[11:33:55] <skunkworks> ^ above screen shot shows it switching from half step -> full step (2 coils on)
[11:35:04] <skunkworks> Connor, yes - we lucked out.
[11:38:04] <skunkworks> It is plug and play - and seems to run just as good if not better (40-45ipm vs 30ipm of the original control)
[11:40:41] <jesseg2> So I'm looking for tcltk. I can find tcl, and tk (both 8.6.0) as separate packages. But none seem to install to the tcltk directory where LNC seems to want.
[11:40:47] <Mikegg> yeah, I'm excited. Looks like it might be a little rough around the edges. Not sure if that is rust in the top corner... I didn't even get a chance to inspect it first
[11:41:07] <cradek> jesseg2: it's like you didn't read anything I typed
[11:41:17] <jesseg2> cradek, sorry.. let me go read again..
[11:41:33] <cradek> jesseg2: trying to make your paths match mine is not going to help you
[11:41:52] <jesseg2> cradek, oh. that. no, that's not what I'm doing.
[11:41:58] <cradek> jesseg2: you need to get them installed the slackware way, whatever the heck that is
[11:42:05] <jesseg2> I'm trying to install tcltk.
[11:42:17] <skunkworks> Mikegg, oh - that is the mill. I keep forgetting about that.
[11:42:24] <cradek> tcl and tk are separate things that work together
[11:42:36] <jesseg2> what is tcltk then? :)
[11:42:48] <skunkworks> You would probalby have to get into the original drives. (it is phase drive...)
[11:43:00] <cradek> calling a certain directory is just something some debian packager chose
[11:43:10] <cradek> er calling a certain directory tcltk is just something some debian packager chose
[11:43:25] <Mikegg> yeah, I am going to put this up at my local hackerspace. We'll put it right next to this one:
http://www.txrxlabs.org/blog/smcameron/cnc-mini-lathe/
[11:43:38] <Mikegg> brother & sister
[11:43:47] <skunkworks> aww
[11:43:59] <skunkworks> that should work with my config!!!
[11:44:08] <Mikegg> the lathe?
[11:44:54] <Mikegg> yeah, I wasn't involved in setting that up. I know Chris frequents the forums/IRC. Not sure if he tracked down your config...
[11:46:48] <skunkworks> yes - the lathe
[11:49:08] <jesseg2> cradek, haha can you do me one more favor? Can you please do a dpkg -L tcltk for me? That will tell me what files are in the package, so I can tell where mine is even though it's got a different folder name. Thanks :)
[11:50:26] <Connor> I can't update my liunxcnc-sim..
[11:50:29] <Connor> The following packages have unmet dependencies:
[11:50:29] <Connor> linuxcnc-sim: Depends: libmodbus5 but it is not installable
[11:50:39] <Connor> anyone know what that's about ?
[11:51:11] <jdh> I got that too
[11:51:25] <cradek> you need to add the "base" component to your apt sources
[11:51:35] <cradek> deb
http://linuxcnc.org lucid base linuxcnc2.5-sim
[11:53:02] <Connor> okay. that looks like that did it.
[11:53:53] <jdh> anyone have experience with cheap chinese lasers? Any reason to not get the Keling one over something equally cheap?
[11:54:36] <Connor> you talking the $600 ?
[11:54:43] <jdh> yeah
[11:54:45] <Connor> if so.. I don't think it has Z-Height adjustment.
[11:55:01] <jdh> do any of the cheap ones?
[11:55:22] <Connor> No. Not that I'm aware.
[11:56:23] <Connor> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/general_laser_engraving_cutting_machine_discussion/169077-silly_questions_40_watt_chinese_laser_engravers.html
[12:00:35] <Loetmichel> hmmm... anyone an idea where i did wrong? this flowindicator works with compressed air, but with water flo it just stands still or moves VERY slow backwards?!?
http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=14334
[12:04:11] <jesseg2> Does LinuxCNC have to be set up as mm in order to run gcode files that are in mm?
[12:04:19] <jdh> no
[12:04:53] <cradek> no, mm gcode files should start with g21 and they can run on any machine
[12:04:54] <CaptHindsight> it's better a than NASA Mars probe
[12:05:35] <jesseg2> Is it possible to launch the LinuxCNC program just for testing or whatever if you don't have a printer port on your computer?
[12:06:00] <CaptHindsight> jesseg: sure
[12:06:04] <cradek> you can run a simulator build without any special hardware
[12:06:21] <jesseg2> Is that done during ./configure?
[12:06:25] <cradek> also be aware that parallel ports are only one of many kinds of IO hardware that linuxcnc can use
[12:06:32] <pcw_home> Loetmichel: maybe its trying to compress the water...
[12:06:48] <cradek> yes --enable-simulator
[12:07:06] <cradek> then a special realtime kernel is not needed
[12:07:30] <jesseg2> I thought I did --enable-simulator, but it just gvae me PARPORT: ERROR: and died. I'll try again to compile
[12:09:59] <CaptHindsight> Loetmichel: is the water flowing around the vane?
[12:10:07] <Loetmichel> it should
[12:10:23] <Loetmichel> cant see that with clear water ;-)
[12:10:33] <Tom_itx> use food coloring
[12:11:08] <jesseg2> put glitter in it:P
[12:11:11] <Loetmichel> the irritating thing is: with comressed air or just blowin in on input it works perfectly
[12:11:27] <Tom_itx> did you make this?
[12:11:38] <Tom_itx> put a baffle between the in and out ports
[12:11:46] <Loetmichel> with water even full open tap (2 bar or so) -> no movement of the rotor or slow creeping wackwards
[12:11:52] <Tom_itx> so it has to flow around it
[12:11:54] <Loetmichel> i made this
[12:11:59] <Tom_itx> ^^
[12:12:04] <Loetmichel> whats a baffle
[12:12:09] <Tom_itx> a wall
[12:12:15] * JT-Shop needs to clean off his desk bad...
[12:12:29] <Tom_itx> i can't see how the inside cavity is formed in that pic
[12:12:31] <JT-Shop> I just found my anodizing book on my desk!
[12:12:45] <Loetmichel> just a moment
[12:13:05] <Tom_itx> Loetmichel, is the left side the inlet?
[12:14:00] <Loetmichel> as tha ting is absolute symetric: thats for you or me to decide ;-)
[12:14:04] <Mikegg> can you start it turning the right direction with water flowing?
[12:14:04] <Tom_itx> cut more away on the OD and bring the inlet wall between the two holes further out
[12:14:54] <Tom_itx> Loetmichel, make the inlet route closer to the edge of the wheel
[12:15:04] <Mikegg> oh wait, no
[12:15:47] <Tom_itx> look at the old antique sight glass fuel pumps to see how their meter works
[12:16:33] <Tom_itx> so instead of symetrical, the inlet enters a bit closer to the centerline of the wheel
[12:16:44] <CaptHindsight> sounds like the water is going around the vane and there not enough differential pressure to move it using a fluid
[12:17:20] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=14337
[12:17:29] <Loetmichel> better, Tom_itx?
[12:17:54] <Tom_itx> once i zoomed in i could see it
[12:19:57] <IchGuckLive> hi all B)
[12:23:58] <IchGuckLive> super hot in germany today and on monday we reatch the top
[12:29:57] <Tom_itx> Loetmichel, more like this:
http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/cnc/pump.jpg
[12:30:32] <Tom_itx> you could curve the inlet and move it closer to the outlet
[12:31:23] <IchGuckLive> nice shape
[12:31:39] <Tom_itx> more time, i would have used radius on the inlet
[12:31:51] <Tom_itx> gotta run
[12:32:12] <Mikegg> maybe put the paddle in between the inlet & outlet, just off of centerline?
[12:34:47] <Tom_itx> http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.instrumart.com/assets/108/te_pos_disp_dia2.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.instrumart.com/pages/224/positive-displacement-flow-meters&h=142&w=220&sz=13&tbnid=GfuSHvu4VqMn_M:&tbnh=79&tbnw=123&zoom=1&usg=__AfEe3X_hY5SndIz7BLQeZffmMlU=&docid=xHTl0Va2z465nM&sa=X&ei=RHXpUan1KoWE9QT3wYCIBg&ved=0CEsQ9QEwAQ&dur=2850
[12:36:32] <Mikegg> yeah, something like that
[12:36:55] <CaptHindsight> that ^^ design will create a lower pressure area near the top of the vane (more diff between top and bottom)
[12:40:46] <jesseg2> Is that a eccentric vane pump, or a centrifugal pump?
[12:41:20] <IchGuckLive> 2stage presser pup
[12:42:37] <Loetmichel> Tom_itx: i think i got it: have to make the recess for the gasket-ring deeper
[12:43:20] <Loetmichel> the front glass doesen lay flat on the black pom, the gasket is generating a 0,5mm gap.
[12:43:35] <Loetmichel> so tha water can flow directly instead of around the rotor
[12:43:37] <CaptHindsight> less water will flow around the vane
[12:44:37] <CaptHindsight> tighten up all the tolerances
[12:45:36] <Connor> IchGuckLive: I would avoid right angles on the inlets.. come in from the bottom.. instead of from behind.
[12:46:35] <jdh> so, the consensus is the $700 chinese lasers are crap. If you add another $800, they become better running crap.
[12:46:54] <Connor> jdh: What are you wanting to do with it?
[12:47:02] <jdh> play
[12:47:06] <Connor> I mean.. for doing some stuff.. they probably work fine..
[12:47:40] <jdh> I'd like to cut 1/8" acrylic and maybe ABS & HDPE
[12:47:40] <Connor> and, you probably could rework it to have adjustable Z.. and I know they have kits to allow the laser to be adjusted via g-code instead of manually adjusting.
[12:48:09] <IchGuckLive> Connor: its loetmichels projekt
[12:48:25] <Connor> sorry IchGuckLive.. got you all mixed up. :)
[12:48:31] <jdh> yeah, that's part of the $800 extra
[12:49:08] <jdh> or, for $2400 get something less sucky and 50w
[12:49:34] <Connor> that 50w is good.. it has adjustable Z.
[12:49:52] <jdh> or, go to mexico and go cave diving for a week.
[12:50:20] <jdh> or vfd + motor + beltdrive for my mill.
[12:51:57] <jesseg2> I configured with ./configure --prefix=/usr --enable-simulator --without-libmodbus
[12:52:07] <jesseg2> I do not have a printer port.
[12:52:22] <jesseg2> when I run LinuxCNC, it says PARPORT: ERROR: cant find port 888 (0x378)
[12:52:54] <jesseg2> Then it exited after spewing a few more lines.
[12:55:14] <jesseg2> http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=DPHHkqiz
[12:55:16] <jesseg2> Oh....
[12:55:23] <jesseg2> I told it I had a sherline 4 axis.
[12:55:34] <jesseg2> Is that the problem?
[12:56:27] <jesseg2> cradek, I did get bwidget working. I just had to untar the installation tarball and move it to /usr/lib ha ha.
[12:56:50] <skunkworks> did you say this was slackware?
[12:56:59] <jesseg2> yup - 13.37 32bit
[12:57:28] <skunkworks> Do you have to remove the existing printer port driver? sudo rmmod lp (on ubuntu_)
[12:58:02] <jesseg2> This computer doesn't have a printer port and so lp is not loaded.
[12:58:15] <jesseg2> I just want to test and learn without milling yet
[12:58:15] <skunkworks> oh - that is your problem..
[12:58:38] <skunkworks> try the simes
[12:58:40] <skunkworks> sims
[12:58:49] <jesseg2> I do have RS232 port -- both a real and a usb device
[12:58:49] <skunkworks> like sim axis or such
[12:59:22] <jesseg2> How do I do that? by choosing sim during initial setup, instead of choosing sherline 4 axis?
[12:59:47] <skunkworks> at the config picker when you start linuxcnc
[13:01:49] <jesseg2> I see sim -> axis*
[13:02:04] <skunkworks> yes
[13:02:20] <jesseg2> Which axis* should I pick?
[13:02:35] <jesseg2> looks like they are 9 axis for the first few anyway
[13:02:51] <skunkworks> try any - I think they all should work
[13:03:13] <jesseg2> ahh this looks hopefully
[13:03:16] <jesseg2> -y
[13:03:25] <jesseg2> LOL.
[13:03:41] <IchGuckLive> jesseg USA or Europ mm/inch
[13:04:09] <jesseg2> it almost worked. I'm doing it over exported X display, which doesn't support DRI hahahaha :-)
[13:04:35] <jesseg2> well thank you all very much. When I get home to the computer I should be ready to experiment! (I've been doing it remotely.)
[13:04:48] <skunkworks> cool
[13:05:04] <AR_> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMYeUm1Axjo
[13:05:10] <AR_> sorry for the shitty vertical view
[13:06:47] <jesseg2> I've seen those funny narrow views before on youtube. What causes them?
[13:08:13] <AR_> holding phone vertically instead of horizontally
[13:08:29] <jesseg2> LOL oh. widescreen phone with autorotation correction =)
[13:08:57] <AR_> yep
[13:10:28] <CaptHindsight> 50 Chinese laser watts are about 30 US laser watts
[13:11:01] <jesseg2> meaning a Chinese 50W laser puts out the same power as a 30W US laser?
[13:11:05] <IchGuckLive> AR_: why dident y<ou stop the tool to see the shape ??
[13:11:05] <AR_> lol
[13:11:06] <jesseg2> or they cost t h e same?
[13:11:21] <AR_> cause i'm dumb
[13:11:35] <AR_> uploading pics now
[13:13:34] <AR_> it's a really little fly cutting tool
[13:13:39] <AR_> 3/16" bit
[13:13:53] <AR_> so i cant push it too hard
[13:14:24] <CaptHindsight> jesseg: they tend to embellish their specs a bit there
[13:14:36] <jesseg2> CaptHindsight, haha. yup.
[13:15:04] <jesseg2> So, considering the embellishments, how does $/realwatt work out?
[13:18:40] <AR_> here's some still pics, IchGuckLive
http://imgur.com/a/W39cq
[13:20:02] <CaptHindsight> jesseg: I don't even know who in the US is making laser tubes for low cost cutters engravers
[13:20:21] <jesseg2> US? low cost? Huh?
[13:20:24] <IchGuckLive> AR_: Thanks
[13:25:19] <Aero-Tec3> got threading figured out, for the most part
[13:26:29] <Aero-Tec3> thing is most guys and books and website like to complicate things to the max
[13:27:05] <Aero-Tec3> makes them looks smarter and you have to really dig and work for the info
[13:27:23] <jesseg2> How hard would it be for me to use EMC with an RS232 mill controller? The controller has all of the PID in it - it just needs goto commands for each axis, using a relatively simple protocol with checksums
[13:27:36] <Aero-Tec3> few simple formulas with some pix to help understand why and your done
[13:28:40] <Aero-Tec3> all one needs is the formulas to make it all work
[14:35:55] <Tom_itx> Aero-Tec3 the formulas should be in the Machinery's Handbook
[14:36:29] <Aero-Tec3> they are but not in simplified form
[14:37:09] <Aero-Tec3> not the quick and easy not exact but very close form
[14:38:31] <Aero-Tec3> for someone that wants to bang out some simple but non standard threads and does not need down to 10 to 100 thou accuracy
[14:38:36] <roh> hmm.. a meetup in stuttgart...
[14:38:48] <roh> intreresting... just the wrong end of the country for me ;)
[14:38:57] <archivist> drive
[14:39:04] <Aero-Tec3> just something easy to work out and do inside Gcode
[14:39:45] <archivist> Aero-Tec3, tpi is about all you need and some approx depths
[14:40:37] <Aero-Tec3> true, but the depths and be fun to work out,if your shooting for some nice tight threads
[14:41:08] <Aero-Tec3> with muzzle brakes on the end of a gun I need to have a good thread
[14:41:55] <archivist> I get mine tight by cutting over size, measure test, then adjust gcode a bit, re run
[14:42:36] <Aero-Tec3> that works good for EXT threads, but I have to cut INT threads
[14:42:52] <Aero-Tec3> do you know a good way to measure INT threads?
[14:43:06] <Tom_itx> go no go gage
[14:43:08] <JT-Shop> go no go gauges
[14:43:12] <Tom_itx> :)
[14:43:14] <JT-Shop> lol
[14:43:16] <Aero-Tec3> I have triangles for EXT and love them
[14:43:26] <archivist> works the same for inner :) I just have the item ready to try in the thread
[14:43:45] <Aero-Tec3> I was going to make up some go no go
[14:44:10] <Tom_itx> you can't make them up, they are precision ground to standards
[14:44:22] <Aero-Tec3> I was using taps, but some of the threads I do not have the taps for
[14:45:24] <archivist> you can make your own go no go if you can measure properly
[14:45:54] <Aero-Tec3> so one can not make your own go no go gage?
[14:46:15] <Tom_itx> depends on the equipment you have
[14:46:19] <Tom_itx> i suppose
[14:46:29] <Tom_itx> but then they need to be certified etc
[14:46:35] <Aero-Tec3> would triangles be good enough to measure?
[14:46:35] <Tom_itx> unless you don't care
[14:46:40] <archivist> you can if your skills and equipment are up to the task
[14:47:07] <Aero-Tec3> they do not have to be certified
[14:48:07] <Aero-Tec3> one thing I am not sure about is the sizes to make the go no go gage
[14:48:26] <Tom_itx> somewhat depends on the preision of the thread
[14:48:34] <Aero-Tec3> true
[14:48:50] <archivist> that is where you read the calculations carefully as that should be there
[14:48:55] <Tom_itx> a sloppy hardware store bolt isn't as critical as an aircraft or shuttle bolt
[14:49:07] <Aero-Tec3> lol
[14:49:10] <Aero-Tec3> for sure
[14:49:24] <Tom_itx> there are standards for all that
[14:49:58] <Aero-Tec3> is there standards for go no go gages?
[14:50:07] <archivist> I mainly make replacement screws for some antique item so I have to use the original pitch not some standard
[14:50:07] <Aero-Tec3> if so where do I find them?
[14:50:12] <Tom_itx> absolutely
[14:50:39] <Tom_itx> http://www.engineersedge.com/screw_threads_chart.htm
[14:50:45] <Tom_itx> not sure how good that one is
[14:51:25] <Tom_itx> also notice the 'CLASS' of the thread
[14:51:31] <Tom_itx> that's the precision
[14:51:31] <archivist> gun threads are probably off normal charts and you have to use the calcs
[14:53:12] <Aero-Tec3> going for 3B fit or better
[14:53:33] <Aero-Tec3> some are off normal for sure
[14:53:58] <Aero-Tec3> just not sure what sizes to use for go no go gage
[14:54:07] <Tom_itx> call a gage lab
[14:54:16] <archivist> your "fit" tells you
[14:55:07] <Tom_itx> yeah a good machinist can feel if something is right unless you're required to make it to a print or standard
[14:56:14] <Aero-Tec3> so make go the max size and no go just a tad smaller then what you want your min size to be I would guess
[14:56:18] <Tom_itx> also if you're using a non standard thread, use some dykem on it to check the fit
[14:57:06] <Aero-Tec3> dykem? is that layout dye?
[14:57:12] <Tom_itx> yeah
[14:57:18] <Tom_itx> machinists blue
[14:57:20] <Tom_itx> etc
[14:57:24] <Aero-Tec3> so how does that work?
[14:57:28] <Tom_itx> or red if you prefer
[14:57:32] <Aero-Tec3> I have some
[14:57:41] <Tom_itx> screw it together and see where it touches
[14:57:42] <Aero-Tec3> mine is the blue
[14:58:03] <Tom_itx> a light coat
[14:58:09] <Aero-Tec3> cool
[14:58:15] <Aero-Tec3> thanks for the tip
[14:58:38] <Tom_itx> it will tell you if your root diameter is too deep etc depending where the parts mate
[14:58:54] <Aero-Tec3> I was making mine a tight fit on a tap
[14:59:51] <Aero-Tec3> but run of the mill tap so not sure what grade I was hitting
[15:00:10] <Aero-Tec3> or should I say class
[15:01:09] <Tom_itx> some taps will have it etched on them
[15:01:20] <Tom_itx> iirc it's like an H2 or H3 etc
[15:02:10] <Aero-Tec3> what I was unsure about is just how big over size I should go and just how small under size I should go for the go no go gage
[15:03:21] <Tom_itx> there are ring gages and plug gages depending if it's ID or OD thread
[15:03:34] <Aero-Tec3> one needs a small amount of clearance for the fit, making it the exact size would make a interference fit and would be no good for a gage
[15:04:08] <Tom_itx> maybe not for the 'no go' :)
[15:04:34] <Aero-Tec3> so just how many thou bigger or does it need to be from target size?
[15:04:52] <Aero-Tec3> oops
[15:05:10] <Aero-Tec3> missed the smaller
[15:06:45] <Tom_itx> http://northerngauge.com/un.html
[15:06:51] <Tom_itx> doesn't give tolerances
[15:07:02] <Aero-Tec3> guess for INT thread gage the gage would have to be smaller then target size to fit inside the thread
[15:09:46] <Aero-Tec3> anyone have any idea what clearances would be needed?
[15:10:39] <Aero-Tec3> I know smaller is tighter, but for say 1/2 or 3/4 inch threads, how much clearance is needed for a good tight fit?
[15:22:05] <Aero-Tec3> to clarify, smaller sizes need tighter fits to work and not be sloppy
[16:02:01] <gene78> Now I have a puzzle, /usr/share/emc does not exist, and I have not deleted it. Where can I find a copy of that whole tree?
[16:04:20] <gene78> Found it, the link 'examples' has not been updated for the name change
[16:22:51] <Aero-Tec3> can one send a sub a non numerical variable? like say Ext
[16:26:49] <Aero-Tec3> also can conditional branches work with non numerical info like say #side = "Int"
[16:28:35] <jdh> #Int = 1, #Ext = 2, #side = #Ext
[16:29:17] <jdh> strings are tacky for things like that anyway.
[16:39:43] <JT-Shop> Aero-Tec3: no only numbers can be sent but you can make choices like that with numbers too
[16:40:20] <Aero-Tec3> I was hoping for making reading the code easier
[16:40:56] <Aero-Tec3> I know 1 = Ent and 2 = Int
[16:41:58] <Aero-Tec3> but being able to write if #side = "Int" then .... would make it clearer to the reader of the code
[16:43:41] <Aero-Tec3> was just hoping, would be cool if one could have text value of variables as well
[16:44:12] <Aero-Tec3> any chance of that happening?
[16:44:14] <Aero-Tec3> lol
[16:50:37] <JT-Shop> I don't have a clue, well I suspect you can't pass a string without changing the core code
[17:32:19] <DJ9DJ> gn8
[18:11:18] <gene78> guys, got a problem, using g91g81, can't get rid of the r less than z error clear at the end of the loop.
[18:12:20] <gene78> G1 F10 @1.5 ^30
[18:12:42] <gene78> G91 ^30 G81 G98 R2.16 z-2.15 L12
[18:13:04] <gene78> followed by 11 more lines of^30
[18:13:36] <gene78> error is blamed on the next line after the last ^30
[18:13:39] <gene78> which is
[18:14:06] <gene78> G90 z3
[18:14:53] <gene78> Obviously the man pages need more clarification for the G81cycle
[18:15:30] <gene78> Or, do I even need the next 11 30's
[18:22:52] <gene78> backtrace looks better w/o them, but it still won't run, r less than z in cycle in xy plane
[18:24:51] <gene78> why do I always do this stuff on friday evenings when nobody is around... ;-)
[18:46:51] <Aero-Tec3> hello
[18:47:18] <Aero-Tec3> what is ^30?
[18:47:57] <Aero-Tec3> is that a return character?
[18:53:09] <Aero-Tec3> gene78, you around?
[18:53:13] <Aero-Tec3> hello
[18:54:09] <Aero-Tec3> the line G91 ^30 G81 G98 R2.16 z-2.15 L12 looks to be wrong
[18:54:51] <Aero-Tec3> should be G91 G98 G81 R2.16 z-2.15 L12
[18:55:02] <Aero-Tec3> see if that fixes the problem
[18:56:07] <Aero-Tec3> G91 is relative mode, G90 is absolute mode for movement
[18:57:14] <Aero-Tec3> make sure you do a G80 after the drilling to cancel to can code mode
[18:57:49] <Aero-Tec3> let me know if this helps
[21:02:33] <t12> i didnt realize quite how micro
[21:02:35] <t12> the taig lathes are
[21:06:10] <jdh> how micro are they
[21:07:36] <t12> the body of the whole thing not incl motor stuff is like 18" x 5"
[21:08:39] <jdh> http://tinyurl.com/mjhdsm7
[21:10:34] <t12> hah
[21:11:35] <PetefromTn> yep I have seen one in person and they are TINY!! Nicely made tho...
[21:12:07] <t12> works pretty well
[21:12:11] <t12> runs out of juice quickly
[21:12:17] <t12> carriage gib needs work
[21:12:40] <t12> then my persuit of absurdist modification begins
[21:22:17] <RyanS> Likewise I didn't realise how big RF-45s are in person. I had only ever seen pictures before
[21:26:12] <PetefromTn> RF45's are not too small are they. I kinda find this stuff funny because a lot of these machines look similar but when you see them in person it is remarkable the difference between say a X2 and an RF45 or even an 0704. Then you see my Cincinatti arrrow 500 and that looks HUGE until you see a Mazak or a Matsuura or hell even a Fadal, the guy I bought my Cincinatti Arow 500 from has a Fadal 6030 and it is a MONSTER compared
[21:26:12] <PetefromTn> to my VMC. I could not even fit it in my shop...
[21:26:46] <t12> i unfortunately have no concrete floor or ability to move heavy stuff at home
[21:26:55] <t12> so i play with tiny things here and whats available at work
[21:28:40] <RyanS> I was really considering getting a secondhand BP that went for an okay price locally, but at the end of the day it's bigger than what I need and too much of a hassle to get it into the shed/workshop
[21:28:47] <PetefromTn> Understood, big machines are not for everyone that is for sure. My machine is consered small by Commercial Standards but it still scares the crap out of me running it LOL..
[21:29:00] <t12> i WISH i could have big machines
[21:29:18] <t12> i'm in SF though, which more or less means square feet are very expensive to come by
[21:30:27] <PetefromTn> LOL I live in Tennessee but I only have 25x25 foot shop but I got the VMC and quite a few other machines in there okay...
[21:31:30] <t12> at home i think i'm constricted to 30" width to actually get things in anywhere
[21:31:40] <t12> need to find a warehouse somewhere
[21:31:45] <t12> these stick buildings arent for me
[21:32:20] <RyanS> I just purchased a little 4x6 bandsaw. The motor blew after the second very small cut.. I have bad luck with computers and a lot of things I purchase
[21:32:33] <t12> which bandsaw is that?
[21:32:40] <roh> anybody from detroit?
[21:32:58] <t12> i bet sqft are NOT a problem in detroit
[21:33:02] <roycroft> you now have an opportunity to put a proper us or european motor on it
[21:33:28] <roh> t12: heh. i just wanted to congratulate. i live in berlin which is basically bankrupt since around 2001
[21:33:52] <t12> really? i was unaware
[21:33:59] <t12> whats bankruptcy for a city like there?
[21:34:17] <RyanS> you know that small Chinese bandsaw heaps of places sell
[21:34:29] <roh> no money for nothing. hard limits on every budget, loads of bad management, bad maintainance
[21:34:42] <RyanS> Still under warranty so that they can fix it
[21:35:05] <roh> not good. but it makes space affordable for arts and 'different' businesscases. not neccessarily fully capitalistic ones...
[21:35:17] <t12> san francisco has become totally weird
[21:35:20] <roh> cheap space for theatres, musicians.. etc.
[21:35:31] <t12> property prices/rent are insane
[21:36:07] <t12> even with high minimum wage its pretty hard to do anything but rent a room out of some flat for 50-75% of your income if you're not working in tech or business
[21:36:08] <roh> but that comes to an end slowly... lots of spaces got bought, renovated and sold expensively/rented out expensively.. thus some parts of population get pushed out since rent goes up... etc.
[21:36:15] <roh> the usual cycles.
[21:36:44] <roh> still. compared to other german cities living is still much more affordable.
[21:37:46] <roh> well.. it comes down to hard choices for detroit in the future. elect the right people, follow a long term sustainable plan... get lucky.
[21:38:12] <spacka> or bulldoze the whole thing
[21:38:16] <spacka> forget it existed
[21:38:28] <t12> more likely it turns into a law-free zone
[21:38:34] <spacka> it alredy is
[21:38:36] <roh> i guess if they invest well enough into a few good initiatives, they can be a frontrunner again
[21:39:08] <roh> when all goes to shit, its a chance to rebuild
[21:39:15] <t12> the people from new york moving there to farm empty lots was pretty funny
[21:39:19] <spacka> i don't know if the few people who are left in the city have any ability to run it, and i don't think the hipsters who are moving there are any better
[21:39:35] <roh> every rebuild is a chance to make things better this time. thats much harder if you dont start from scratch
[21:39:55] <RyanS> We only seem to have a couple of major machinery dealers in Australia and it's all import stuff. or really high staff from some other dealers but not much in the middleground
[21:40:00] <roh> t12: eh. whut? farm? as in crops where people had their houses?
[21:40:19] <spacka> most of detroit is empty lots
[21:40:41] <roh> so the houses got bulldozed already?
[21:40:50] <spacka> you can buy a house for $1000 because it's a liability, the empty lots cost more than that
[21:40:56] <t12> crops
[21:41:07] <roh> i can imagine that only partially... we build from stones/concrete here. with cellars etc..
[21:41:24] <roh> thus house usually means 'something made for 50-150 years'
[21:41:36] <t12> i assuem the actual worst thing about detroit is weather
[21:41:53] <roh> still, the space it stands on usually is worth the money, not the building
[21:41:59] <RyanS> How does a city go bankrupt, as in the local government with all its public assets or private industry collectively as well...
[21:42:09] <roh> t12: nah.. can't be that bad. think about england ;)
[21:42:19] <spacka> https://heckeranddecker.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/detroit.jpg
[21:42:31] <roh> wow
[21:42:33] <t12> england weather is ideal imo
[21:43:00] <roh> we got a guy from there in our hackerspace. and he is glad not being on that island anymore.
[21:43:23] <RyanS> An English heatwave is 15°C :P
[21:43:30] <spacka> i'm pretty sure we fought a war or two because we didn't like that island anymore
[21:43:32] <roh> we only got 6 month of siberian winter, and then 2-4 month of evil hot summer. lots of rain in between
[21:43:38] <roh> ;)
[21:44:17] <roh> is it time already again?
[21:44:26] <t12> i guess a standard mcmaster dowel pin works as a taig lathe test bar
[21:44:27] <spacka> time for...?
[21:44:44] <roh> to send a daily greetings to the guys in uk, us and where the f* tapping our chats? *greetings*
[21:44:59] <spacka> haha
[21:45:45] <roh> in gdr times people sometimes wished the stasi a nice day also when/after talking with their western relatives on the phone
[21:46:06] <RyanS> haha
[21:46:49] <roh> we seriously had former stasi officers on tv recently saying 'we could only tap 44 calls at the same time. you said WE were evil.. WTF'
[21:47:37] <MattyMatt> yeah I WTF at that back when prism was called echelon
[21:47:43] <RyanS> Have you seen the 'lives of others'? I think that's what the movie was
[21:47:56] <roh> yup. one of many
[21:48:10] <spacka> i wtf at it back when it was carnivore :p
[21:48:30] <MattyMatt> derpanet
[21:48:38] <spacka> tia
[21:48:47] <roh> well.. i guess that was one too many. even the most conservative person now is pissed.
[21:48:50] <RyanS> Also Goodbye Lenin
[21:49:01] <spacka> roh: no they aren't
[21:49:09] <spacka> unfortunately
[21:49:11] <roh> spacka: here they are.
[21:49:16] <spacka> where is here?
[21:49:22] <spacka> sf?
[21:49:25] <roh> germany ;)
[21:49:32] <spacka> oh
[21:49:37] <spacka> who was just talking about sf..?
[21:49:58] <roh> my guess is that the us will not like the result of the prism scandal. things will change and trust is gone.
[21:50:11] <spacka> the media has already forgotten about it here
[21:50:21] <roh> the rest is like a cold war pokergame. but nice guy is only show now.
[21:50:34] <roh> spacka: its till top topic every day here.
[21:50:37] <spacka> they mentioned it as much as necessary to create a scandal so that they could launch into personal attacks on snowden
[21:50:44] <spacka> which they did for a few weeks
[21:50:51] <spacka> but have mostly stopped all talk about it now
[21:50:56] <MattyMatt> nice guys with robot armies
[21:51:00] <spacka> but it was almost all talk about snowden himself
[21:51:24] <spacka> roh, nobody ever trusted USA because the USA was trustworthy
[21:51:33] <spacka> :P
[21:51:42] <roh> spacka: i dont think one can expect journalism in the us. sadly. no proper funding for that. only infotainment
[21:52:06] <spacka> it's not just here
[21:52:09] <roh> spacka: nah.. its really like a paradigm shift. before there was atleast a fascade of 'law backed state'
[21:52:14] <spacka> the media in finland is garbage too
[21:52:17] <spacka> and if there, where isn't it?
[21:52:37] <roh> now its 'right of the strongest' .. and i dont think the us does want to play that game in the position it is
[21:52:40] <MattyMatt> there's garbage media everywhere, just gotta pick through for the nuggets
[21:52:48] <RyanS> Why is anybody surprised that allies spy on each other....
[21:52:58] <spacka> RyanS: they're not
[21:53:11] <spacka> are they?
[21:53:50] <MattyMatt> the stink is they share it back, thus bypassing laws about spying on ownfolk
[21:53:50] <roh> nobody of the journalists or normal people does believe the 'we did not know' story of the german government. thus the interresting debates happen when there is no politicians in the room
[21:53:58] <t12> i dunno something like half of the us
[21:54:06] <t12> agrees with the party line re snowden
[21:54:24] <spacka> everybody knows we are spied on. the problem is most people don't care
[21:54:28] <roh> i think maybe warner or whoever has the rights on 1984 and brazil should sue nsa under the dmca for copyright violation ;)
[21:54:31] <t12> well more like
[21:54:32] <MattyMatt> fuckit I say, the world needs a secret undergovt
[21:54:33] <t12> even if you care
[21:54:35] <t12> what do you do about it
[21:54:43] <spacka> that's a second order problem
[21:54:48] <t12> in the end even when you have it pretty shit in the us
[21:54:51] <t12> you have it fairly good
[21:54:58] <t12> when people are hungry stuff will change
[21:55:04] <spacka> yeah, i still like it here
[21:55:16] <t12> people still have alot to lose
[21:55:20] <t12> and likely will for a few more generations at lease
[21:55:22] <t12> least
[21:55:39] <roh> t12: thats not good for me. then things will not change at all. remember.. we are that wellfare state that calculated how much money they can give you not to starve but not live properly
[21:55:54] <spacka> roh: better than nothing :p
[21:56:01] <t12> the US does that too
[21:56:03] <spacka> i mean for the recipient
[21:56:05] <roh> true. still breaks people.
[21:56:06] <t12> you give people enough cash not to riot
[21:56:09] <Tom_itx> spacka, is it really?
[21:56:17] <spacka> for the recipient
[21:56:23] <spacka> you can choose the nothing route if you want
[21:56:27] <spacka> lots of peopel do
[21:56:29] <RyanS> The media generally follows a similar pattern in most countries. It is profit primarily and information after that
[21:56:52] <roh> rips them out of regular society and keeps them down so they become addicted to some kind of support on the long run. capitalism just doesnt need them anymore.
[21:57:05] <t12> with 6-7billion people
[21:57:15] <t12> the idea that everyones gonna pull their own weight/be a productive memory of society
[21:57:20] <t12> is pretty much over
[21:57:27] <spacka> thanks to robots
[21:57:31] <t12> not because they cant, but because whats the point?
[21:57:36] <Tom_itx> no
[21:57:42] <Tom_itx> thanks to government greed
[21:57:54] <MattyMatt> we ain't got robots yet, that can do most jobs
[21:58:08] <t12> depends on how you look at it
[21:58:11] <t12> like in agriculture
[21:58:16] <t12> it's not like robots picking fruit
[21:58:20] <roh> from my pov, capitalism without limits is failing, fast. not only because of greedy banks generating massive inflation, also everything is made by machines. which just need one operator from time to time. so either you are a 'machine juggler', or you are out of a job.
[21:58:23] <t12> but theres no really that much field work anymore
[21:58:33] <t12> (vs history)
[21:58:36] <spacka> but what happens when we do have robots that do almost every job and almost no people are needed to run society
[21:58:56] <RyanS> The private sector isn't greedy too?
[21:59:17] <t12> i think mainly attitudes about society need to change
[21:59:21] <t12> to keep up with the population growth
[21:59:29] <MattyMatt> it's robots wiping old folks asses that we need most
[21:59:35] <roh> the only reason why some people not in development and design (thus production or any repetitative task) lost their jobs _YET_ is because for some reason the machine wasnt flexible or cheap enough. thats changing. fast.
[21:59:52] <MattyMatt> so the young can be allowed to be free to invent robots and shit
[22:00:00] <t12> most people cant do that
[22:00:07] <spacka> i'd argue that robots can even do development and design at some point in the near future... probably even better than we can
[22:00:11] <t12> as in dont and wont have the skill to be engineers
[22:00:24] <spacka> engineers aren't immune
[22:00:34] <t12> its a pretty high bar
[22:00:35] <MattyMatt> robolawyer will shake things up
[22:00:39] <t12> people like to wax about machine learning
[22:00:46] <t12> but it really doesnt seem to be going anywhere to me
[22:00:51] <PetefromTn> The idea that robots will ever take away jobs is a falsehood.
[22:01:00] <spacka> why
[22:01:01] <t12> yeah google can make a car self driving, how many engineer-years did that take?
[22:01:02] <RyanS> And then the robots will take over
[22:01:19] <MattyMatt> I prefer robots to lawyers
[22:01:22] <t12> robots def take away jobs, they wont eliminate them
[22:01:33] <PetefromTn> Because even if you get a robot to do a job you create several jobs just in doing so...
[22:01:45] <spacka> PetefromTn: those jobs can eventually be done by robots too
[22:01:53] <RyanS> Those really human like Japanese robots and creepy
[22:02:00] <t12> or just call unskilled workers robots
[22:02:07] <spacka> there is nothing a human can do that it's impossible for a robot to ever do
[22:02:09] <t12> and have them pick up parts and orient them or whatever on conveyer belts
[22:02:09] <roh> from what i've heard lots of companies around here bring back their production back to germany on the long run (outsourced to the eastern european or some asian country) due to quality and flexibility concerns. also transport is cheaper. and now (compared to 20 years ago) the robot is cheaper than the worker. combined with efficient machines even with our extreme expensive energy costs one can raise quality and produce for the same cost or less now. its crazy. b
[22:02:11] <PetefromTn> there is the engineers who design it, the folks who build it, and the folks who install it, the folks who maintian it, the folks who program it.'
[22:02:29] <spacka> robots will be able to design and build and install and maintain and program
[22:02:37] <PetefromTn> Never happen...
[22:02:38] <spacka> they can already do all those things to a limited extent
[22:02:41] <spacka> ok
[22:02:52] <t12> yeah i dont see that actually happening any time soon
[22:02:56] <roh> my point is: capitalism needs lots of consumers. which have jobs to have money to consume. stuff doesnt work anymore if these are laid off.
[22:03:01] <spacka> maybe not in 10-20 years
[22:03:01] <t12> we can barely pull off dark assembly lines etc
[22:03:06] <spacka> maybe not even in my life
[22:03:17] <MattyMatt> yeah the singularity happens when an AI can write code based on a beer induced bullsession spec
[22:03:25] <spacka> but either we will stagnate because of lack of resources, or that will happen
[22:03:30] <t12> loll MattyMatt
[22:03:56] <roh> t12: why?
[22:04:00] <spacka> i don't know which will happen first
[22:04:18] <t12> because simple stuff with robots is very hard
[22:04:20] <PetefromTn> Also just look at all that is involved in creating a simple three axis robot IE a milling machine. Look at all the suppliers, the creators, the businesses who make their living selling the parts, the programmers who design the software....it just goes on and on..
[22:04:39] <roh> t12: ah. yes... but done properly once...
[22:04:40] <RyanS> roh and robots don't require sick pay
[22:04:44] <spacka> t12 : or just call unskilled workers robots
[22:04:44] <t12> Pete: i agree in general, but i would say that take some product
[22:04:54] <MattyMatt> or pensions
[22:04:55] <t12> even with all that, the number of people-hours per unit output
[22:04:57] <t12> is lower
[22:04:59] <spacka> humans are just fancy robots that are cheap and subsidized by society :)
[22:05:22] <t12> maybe we'll just have some logans run stuff go on
[22:05:23] <roh> RyanS: etc etc ;) in the end.. i am buzzed how society will find a way to redistribute the 'automatisation-dividend'
[22:05:28] <t12> and then dont need pensions and health insurance
[22:05:31] <spacka> you can rent one of the most advanced general purpose machines ever for the price ofminimum wage...
[22:05:36] <RyanS> What happens when robots develop artificial intelligence and demand more maintenance and electricity!
[22:05:40] <spacka> someone else built it, someone else programmed it
[22:05:41] <PetefromTn> Robotics only changes the game a little it will never remove the human element completely.
[22:05:44] <spacka> it can do just about anything
[22:05:49] <spacka> and you pay $10/hour for it
[22:05:52] <roh> a friend of mine is writing a book about that topic. (automatisation and whats happening the last few years)
[22:05:53] <spacka> it's incredible
[22:05:57] <MattyMatt> sex robots will stop the rich wanting poor people to abuse
[22:05:58] <spacka> that's the barrier to entry for robots
[22:06:34] <roh> my guess is that we only have people sitting in trucks on the autobahn now because the insurance companies arent satisfied (yet). another ~50-100 thousand less jobs...
[22:06:44] <spacka> yep
[22:06:54] <spacka> how many in the US?
[22:06:59] <t12> think of how much more awesome
[22:07:01] <spacka> what is the point of a train conductor?
[22:07:03] <t12> hijacking tucks will be
[22:07:06] <t12> when they have no driver
[22:08:04] <roh> t12: well... no doors, locked from inside electronically, drives fast, gps logging? i'd rather recommend a normal one. muuuch easier. just pay the driver. he makes shit money
[22:08:18] <MattyMatt> NY subway had no conductors, so the guardian angels volunteered. are they still going?
[22:08:24] <t12> alternately
[22:08:27] <t12> reprogram truck
[22:08:30] <t12> take contents
[22:08:33] <RyanS> Do people actually drive fast on autobahns, or not insanely so?
[22:08:49] <roh> RyanS: there is a minimum speed of about 60-75kph
[22:09:06] <spacka> most people drive a reasonable speed. some people haul ass
[22:09:09] <spacka> is how i remember it
[22:09:44] <roh> trucks are allowd to do 80-100 (depending on load and type), caravans and stuff with trailer 80, cars no limit.. usually 130-160 is a nice driving speed.
[22:10:06] <roh> and yes there are some insane ones doing about 200.. but that eats gasoline like hell.
[22:10:36] <roh> anything above 120 costs more money than it really brings in time.. it gets nonlinear here because of wind-drag
[22:10:58] <RyanS> But surely 160 is difficult to slow down if something happens?
[22:11:27] <roh> not really.. when you keep proper distance ('halber tacho' -> half speedometer)
[22:11:52] <roh> so.. at 160, atleast 80 metres... but thats quite ... well.. rather give it 200 or more if possible.
[22:12:00] <spacka> 2 second rule
[22:12:29] <roh> also we have regular enforced checkups on the hardware. so ... brakes working, nothing corroded, proper profile etc.
[22:12:29] <spacka> if a deer jumps in front of your car, it's toast even at 30mph
[22:12:48] <roh> and you can only overtake on the _left_ on autobahn.
[22:13:08] <RyanS> German efficiency :P
[22:13:15] <spacka> that's technically the case here too, but it is never enforced
[22:13:20] <roh> also you need to move to the right most lane if empty. then traffic can flow properly at insane speeds.
[22:13:29] <spacka> sometimes people will be driving the speed limit in the left lane of a 10 lane road
[22:13:32] <spacka> and it almost makes me cry
[22:13:43] <spacka> i'm sad just thinking about it :(
[22:14:08] <roh> RyanS: rather a survival tactic.. combined with proper protection (which can only help a bit) we have less than 4000 dead i think per year on the road. russia has >33000
[22:14:14] <t12> here theres too much traffic to ever get going that fast
[22:14:34] <spacka> it's only outside cities where there is no speed limit
[22:14:46] <roh> no brakes, no lights, no safety-margin on distance, bad tires and too fast... then a lada is only as big as a trunk.
[22:14:52] <spacka> the autobahn has speed limits in a lot of its parts
[22:15:03] <spacka> but in the long stretches between cities, they are uncapped
[22:15:07] <MattyMatt> don't cry, build one of these
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtylFugOT_4
[22:15:10] <Tecan> (TtylFugOT_4) "Flying bike Jan tleskac" by "airborneCZ" is "Autos" - Length: 0:00:53
[22:15:31] <MattyMatt> Tecan is a bot now? cool
[22:15:51] <roh> spacka: to be fair, i would be ok with a generic speed limit at about 180 or 200. that gets all the crazies and leaves the one with the proper equipment have their fun when there is space.
[22:16:14] <roh> if you want to go faster. get a pilots licence. *veg*
[22:16:22] <roh> i know some. not that hard.
[22:16:30] <spacka> i dunno. i'm not in favor of laws... and stuff... :p
[22:16:38] <RyanS> When are we going to have flying cars and personal helicopters damnit
[22:17:14] <spacka> some us states used to have no speed limit on the highway. then the federal government threatened to withhold funding
[22:17:28] <roh> on the other side.. if you got the money for a fast car.. just go to a proper course like nuernburgring and race there. much more fun and safe for everybody but yourself :)
[22:17:30] <spacka> so they reduced the limits to the federal government's wishes
[22:17:41] <spacka> now they are slowly creeping back up
[22:18:02] <spacka> 130km/h is about the max still though
[22:18:07] <spacka> but it's getting more common
[22:18:18] <roh> spacka: i think without the rules we have for high speeds, its really dangerous
[22:18:44] <roh> on a autobahn, there are no turns or stopping ever.. if you do, you are nearly dead.
[22:19:00] <spacka> same on any highway i guess
[22:19:47] <RyanS> are German made cars still comparatively expensive to imported ones in Germany?
[22:20:00] <roh> maybe. but i think its quite unusual for highways to have the lanes seperated by direction?
[22:20:12] <roh> RyanS: sure.
[22:20:13] <spacka> what do you mean?
[22:20:52] <roh> well.. we have a fat metal seperator between the counter-direction lanes.
[22:21:02] <spacka> yeah, we do too
[22:21:08] <spacka> a metal spacer or a huge field
[22:21:14] <spacka> or trees
[22:21:16] <PetefromTn> Well I finally received the engraving cutters I ordered a full week ago today. Fortunately they look pretty good. Gonna be trying them out here soon on the VMC with router engraver setup I made.
[22:21:25] <roh> well.. usually both. about 10 meters of space and heavy duty metal
[22:21:34] <spacka> but that makes it safer than without
[22:22:04] <MattyMatt> metal fences are breakaway, calibrated to absorb a truck weight
[22:22:05] <roh> doesnt help always, but it usually keeps stuff from doing the russian style 'swivel over' -> headon
[22:22:19] <spacka> when a car manages to flip over that barrier into oncoming traffic, shit starts to get really f'd up fast :)
[22:22:25] <t12> http://www.youtube.com/user/colinfurze?feature=watch
[22:22:28] <t12> man this guy
[22:22:32] <t12> put a pulse jet on everything guy
[22:22:42] <spacka> hehe
[22:23:24] <roh> t12: hrhr.... i stay electric on my bike
[22:24:26] <t12> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qRzC95YpSE
[22:24:28] <Tecan> (6qRzC95YpSE) "World's Longest Scooter / Motorbike - Direct Bikes - Colin Furze" by "directbikes" is "Autos" - Length: 0:01:41
[22:24:28] <t12> scooter.. limo?
[22:25:01] <roh> hm. on the other hand.. maybe detroit should use the oppotunity to add some more parks ;)
[22:25:30] <roh> thats what i always liked about berlin. so nice and fresh, cool because of the loads of green. trees, grass...etc
[22:26:59] <t12> i liked washington state for that
[22:27:25] <t12> suburbs in washington seem to be little weird arcologies carved out of forest with roads connecting them
[22:31:44] <CaptHindsight> http://www.instructables.com/id/DIY-high-resolution-3D-DLP-printer-3D-printer/ crude but works
[22:32:12] <roh> CaptHindsight: you built one?
[22:33:00] <CaptHindsight> roh: not that one, but others that are a bit more sophisticated
[22:33:29] <roh> ah. but same concept (dlp beamer, liquid stuff, uv hardening) ?
[22:33:47] <roh> i'd like to see what quality and resolutions is possible in reality
[22:34:07] <roh> so.. if its worth the trouble.. we got multiple fdm machines now
[22:34:41] <CaptHindsight> sub-micron res is possible
[22:35:19] <roh> do you know about the cost side of material (the plastic soup) and machineparts?
[22:35:23] <CaptHindsight> with a DLP the individual mirrors are ~10um square
[22:36:03] <CaptHindsight> you can reduce the image down to the 1 um or so per pixel
[22:36:48] <roh> i am sure it works.. i mean.. doesnt the stl stuff work like that for years? (well.. ok .. lasers, galvos...)
[22:37:02] <CaptHindsight> photopolymer costs depend on volume, they are down near the cost of injection molding pellets in high volume
[22:37:22] <roh> i am just trying to get a feeling if its worth the money and trouble to get/build one in our lab ;)
[22:37:32] <CaptHindsight> in small quan >$35 Kg
[22:37:58] <roh> still ok. i mean.. even fdm plastic nearly costs that much (i think 30-80E/2kg)
[22:38:01] <CaptHindsight> the DLP types can be 100X the speed of GGG/FDM
[22:38:26] <roh> i guess speed is realtive, same as on fdm, and depends on wanted resolution ;)
[22:38:38] <CaptHindsight> with res of 100um features over 19 x 11 cm
[22:38:53] <roh> so.. in reality.. are prints faster? i guess one wants more quality at the same time as speed compared to fdm
[22:39:13] <CaptHindsight> with DLP an entire layer is printed at one time 1-few seconds
[22:39:16] <roh> nice. thats with a full-hd beamer?
[22:39:21] <CaptHindsight> yes
[22:39:32] <roh> so the biggest cost is i guess that beamer
[22:39:42] <roh> and proper precice mechanics
[22:39:43] <CaptHindsight> so print rates over that area may be 6mm per minute
[22:40:40] <roh> we got a shapercube fdm, one ultimaker, some thing from MIT with a coreXY mechanics and a rostock reprap now. stl or dlp would be nice.
[22:41:27] <roh> hm. i really need to get a source for that soup in europe to convince my co-hackers i guess :)
[22:41:53] <roh> currently the hopes are on the form1 thing.
[22:42:16] <CaptHindsight> Form1 uses only a single laser
[22:42:55] <roh> i know. still interresting since its a 'done device' which one could even sell
[22:43:19] <CaptHindsight> 3D Systems has them tied up in the patent courts
[22:43:47] <roh> meeeh
[22:46:46] <MattyMatt> sls is the one I want. metal powder is cheap
[22:47:13] <MattyMatt> especially if your shop makes a load of chips already :)
