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[00:19:57] <Loetmichel> mornin'
[02:02:22] <DJ9DJ> moin
[08:08:04] <frallzor> booh
[08:50:37] <skunkworks> heh
http://www.machsupport.com/forum/index.php/topic,8681.0.html
[09:11:43] <JT-Shop> lol page won't load, too much bloat I guess
[09:12:13] <skunkworks> I think their site is a little slow this morning...
[09:12:22] <Valen> probably runs on iis
[09:12:27] <Valen> on XP
[09:12:31] <Valen> ;->
[09:25:18] <JT-Shop> still has not loaded, but I can almost guess what I'll see after reading Emco Compact 5
[09:26:22] <JT-Shop> must be me... nothing works
[09:27:23] <frallzor> http://imageshack.us/a/img706/6767/f4jj.jpg progress
[09:36:27] <skunkworks> frallzor, what are you making?
[09:37:04] <frallzor> 3D-printer
[09:40:18] * skunkworks wants to make a 4d printer... ;)
[09:42:06] <jdh> most normal 3d printers seem very much to encompass 4d
[09:42:13] <syyl> "i want to print more time per day"
[09:43:23] <jdh> or at least more than once per day\
[09:48:25] <mozmck> AFAIK, there is no 4th dimension. There is 4-axis, but that is different.
[09:48:58] <skunkworks> my printer would slide outside of our time create the part and slide back in at exatly the same time the print started
[09:51:06] <mozmck> Ah... let me know when you get that working!
[09:51:34] <skunkworks> it is working in my head... ;)
[09:53:42] <Valen> mozmck: it already can has worked!
[09:55:55] <skunkworks> heh - hitch hikers guide to the galixy... future past tense...
[09:57:42] <skunkworks> (after time travel was created - language got quite a bit more complicated)
[09:58:36] <archivist> I though that was before :)
[10:06:01] <archivist> I am reminded of One fine day, two dead men got up to fight, drew their swords and shot each other..
[10:08:57] <Vq> jdh: 4 spatial dimensions dammit!
[10:09:18] <Vq> Whats the use of a 4d-printer if you can't print hyper rubik cubes? ...
[10:16:16] <JT-Shop> anyone build a benchtop blasting cabinet?
[10:36:33] <skunkworks> JT-Shop, dad bought one from enco or harbor frieght.. He likes it
[10:37:44] <JT-Shop> thanks
[10:50:05] <CaptHindsight> the Enco
http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=803-0036&PMPXNO=3009582&PARTPG=INLMK3 is much larger than the HF
http://www.harborfreight.com/40-lb-capacity-floor-blast-cabinet-68893.html for about the same price
[10:52:58] <JT-Shop> I'm looking for a benchtop unit
[10:53:11] <JT-Shop> good price on that one but too bug
[10:53:13] <JT-Shop> big
[10:53:21] <CaptHindsight> http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_333803_333803
[10:54:11] <JT-Shop> I looked at that one yesterday and it didn't have good reviews
[10:54:47] <JT-Shop> I think for now I'll just get some gloves and a tubby and make one
[10:55:36] <Aero-Tec3> mhaberler, I looked at your link real quickly before and thought it to be just a subroutine example, something I have done many times before
[10:56:04] <Aero-Tec3> but reading the readme just now and I see it is much more
[10:57:04] <Aero-Tec3> running python in gcode? would like to know more about why do that over doing just a sub file and calling that
[10:57:47] <JT-Shop> I think I'll wander over to TSC and look at this one
http://www.tractorsupply.com/en/store/jobsmartreg%3b-benchtop-abrasive-blasting-cabinet-32-lb-capacity?utm_campaign=bazaarvoice&utm_medium=SearchVoice&utm_source=RatingsAndReviews&utm_content=Default
[10:58:54] <CaptHindsight> only $99
[11:03:35] <Aero-Tec3> JT-Shop, I own 3 of them, you need a good breathing protector when using it
[11:04:44] <Aero-Tec3> when blasting you lid lifts in the middle,right where your mouth and noise are, and it leaks sand and dust from there
[11:05:14] <Aero-Tec3> the not you
[11:05:15] <mhaberler> Aero-Tec3: back.. anything specific I can help you with the cycle code?
[11:05:45] <Aero-Tec3> just wondering why use python over calling a sub file?
[11:07:26] <Aero-Tec3> JT-Shop, I was thinking on adding a steel bar of some sort to stop it from happening, angle iron or some other form
[11:07:29] <mhaberler> this isnt either or - you cannot do a new g/mcode just with a subroutine; the manual explainst why this is so
[11:08:06] <mhaberler> section 1: ructure.html#_introduction_extending_the_rs274ngc_interpreter_by_remapping_codes
[11:08:15] <mhaberler> oops:
http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/devel/html/remap/structure.html#_introduction_extending_the_rs274ngc_interpreter_by_remapping_codes
[11:08:59] <mhaberler> as a side effect, you can call Python methods from NGC subs, but thats fallout, not use case
[11:10:20] <mhaberler> however, you can do much more in Python which is impossible in ngc, see for instance recording and replaying profiles:
http://git.mah.priv.at/gitweb?p=emc2-dev.git;a=shortlog;h=refs/heads/list-recorder-by-remap
[11:16:40] <Jymmm> Nice...
http://inhabitat.com/german-scientists-create-lithium-ion-battery-that-can-charge-an-electric-car-for-27-years/
[11:18:05] <Jymmm> Yahoo Zombies...
http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2013/07/16/yahoo-email-addresses-from-pool-dead/
[11:23:57] <ReadError> ah great
[11:24:12] <ReadError> so you can hijack someone's other accounts they had registered
[11:27:51] * skunkworks goes and sends an email from his gmail account
[11:28:11] * skunkworks means yahoo
[11:55:16] <fbx90> so what's the alternative to using software stepping?
[11:55:24] <fbx90> and don't say hardware stepping
[11:55:24] <fbx90> :P
[11:55:39] <jdh> hardw...
[11:56:10] <jdh> mesa cards, pico systems, etc.
[11:56:14] <frallzor> http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/8061/2xv5.jpg I love stainless steel screws
[11:56:55] <jdh> they are pretty, but tend to gall in SS and shear
[11:57:46] <Jymmm> I prefer titanium, especially in this application...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiE58Ri5axQ
[11:57:47] <Tecan> (aiE58Ri5axQ) "WATER JET PACK" by "JWatson2239" is "People" - Length: 0:02:31
[11:58:05] <frallzor> SS is good enough for this, and puuuurty =)
[12:06:12] <Aero-Tec3> mhaberler, that is very cool, thanks for pointing it out to me
[12:07:05] <Aero-Tec3> it open so many doors to cool new things one can do
[12:13:40] <fbx90> jdh: does the pico card just buffer the step/dirs or what kind of commands does emc2 give it?
[12:17:29] <mhaberler> doors.. make that 'ropes' ;)
[12:17:37] <fbx90> oh i see, it shows up as a servo driver
[12:20:31] <IchGuckLive> hi all B)
[12:23:51] <IchGuckLive> is libreoffice the new openoffice ?
[12:38:27] <fbx90> i have this probotix machine and i'm trying to control it using software stepping but it seems i don't have an adequate machine
[12:38:48] <fbx90> and sourcing one that is known to have a low enough latency is kind of a pita
[12:39:11] <fbx90> and might cost as much as a pico
[12:39:11] <andypugh> How low do you need?
[12:39:54] <fbx90> i really like those numbers around 5k
[12:39:59] <fbx90> but <10k would work
[12:40:00] <IchGuckLive> the V90 version
[12:40:04] <fbx90> x90
[12:40:17] <andypugh> Very few machines reliably manage <10k
[12:40:38] <andypugh> How fast can your motors actually turn?
[12:40:44] <IchGuckLive> Uses NEMA 23 Frame Motors 150 Inches Per Minute Rapids 50k will do the job
[12:41:02] <IchGuckLive> 5 Turns Per Inch (0.2in per rev/5.08mm per rev)
[12:41:07] <Jymmm> archivist: Have had a USB powered flatbed scanner for years but unable to use it till now. Between it and my shredder, I'm in heaven getting rid of all this crap I've held on to for so long! LOL
[12:41:09] <IchGuckLive> no need to go <10
[12:41:51] <IchGuckLive> fbx90: what is the goal PCB or wood work
[12:42:15] <IchGuckLive> as the rprecision setting need half step to go at full speed
[12:42:16] <andypugh> It is easy to get hung up on lower latency, when in practive steppers rarely get above 500 rpm before other factors come in to play.
[12:42:30] <fbx90> IchGuckLive: neither, i'm using it for some totally nonstandard stuff
[12:42:50] <IchGuckLive> then what are your requirerments
[12:43:07] <IchGuckLive> as good as it is
[12:43:17] <IchGuckLive> so go for Halfstepping
[12:43:25] <andypugh> But, the cheapest way to get very fast step rates (if you don't have a PCI port) is probably the Mesa 7i43. If you _do_ have a PCI port then you could look at the 5i25.
[12:43:27] <IchGuckLive> 400Steps/rev
[12:43:43] <fbx90> i don't need high speeds as much as i need smoothness
[12:43:55] <fbx90> so i will run it at the lowest step fractions possible but at a high rate
[12:44:04] <andypugh> In that case you might want servos.
[12:44:25] <fbx90> yeah, that's in the works, but for now i have steppers
[12:44:33] <IchGuckLive> fbx90: are you in the USA or in europ
[12:44:36] <fbx90> usa
[12:44:44] <IchGuckLive> im in germany
[12:44:55] <fbx90> i have a pci port, but it has my parport card in it right now...
[12:45:26] <andypugh> Mesa 5i25 might be a good buy, you can couple it with a 7i77 later down the line if you need servos, but initially use it as a Parallel-port on Meth.
[12:45:35] <fbx90> heh
[12:45:39] <fbx90> so0ld
[12:45:41] <fbx90> -0
[12:46:01] <IchGuckLive> it will work for you at smoothnes in halfstep and 0.0005" precise
[12:46:15] <IchGuckLive> this will meet your nedds for the firt time
[12:46:27] <IchGuckLive> what is the PC that runs linuxcnc
[12:46:50] <andypugh> <plays "Guess the URL">
http://store.mesanet.com/index.php?route=product/category&path=69_62
[12:47:07] <fbx90> i have a few options, currently it's a 10 year old dell
[12:47:25] <andypugh> An online store! Mesa look to be entering at least the late 20th century :-)
[12:47:26] <fbx90> from the era of motherboards with both IDE and SATA
[12:47:28] <fbx90> :P
[12:47:46] <IchGuckLive> so go for it
[12:47:52] <IchGuckLive> 2.5.2 is on the system
[12:47:55] <fbx90> yep
[12:48:05] <IchGuckLive> you got the pinlayout at the parport
[12:48:42] <IchGuckLive> go for 2500 2500 8000 5000 on the driver time settings
[12:48:58] <fbx90> the latency is ridiculous
[12:49:11] <fbx90> it'll be low for a while and then jump to 150000
[12:51:02] <fbx90> it's running now, it missed some steps yesterday
[12:51:02] <fbx90> andypugh: so how does this 5i25 work?
[12:51:28] <IchGuckLive> oh SMI
[12:51:28] <andypugh> fbx90: It doesn't by any chance do this every 64 seconds does it?
[12:51:28] <IchGuckLive> fbx90:
http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?FixingSMIIssues
[12:51:37] <IchGuckLive> fbx90: jump 2 point 4 and work your way to the file change
[12:51:37] <IchGuckLive> then come back
[12:51:41] <fbx90> i read that
[12:51:44] <IchGuckLive> ok im out andy is in charge as he is in the US
[12:51:46] <fbx90> i dont' think this board is covered
[12:52:02] <fbx90> and it's a bit less predictable than every 64 seconds
[12:52:10] <fbx90> it once ran 10 minutes staying under 6000
[12:52:17] <fbx90> then jumped up
[12:52:20] <fbx90> thanks IchGuckLive
[12:53:52] <andypugh> IchGuckLive: I am _not_ in the US! What a horrible thought!
[12:54:00] <fbx90> haha
[12:54:39] <IchGuckLive> im still here !
[12:55:03] <fbx90> so how can i use a parallel port on meth to my advantage?
[12:55:13] <fbx90> without plugging a daughter board in
[12:55:15] <andypugh> The 5i25 is a PCI card with an FPGA on it, and a DB25 connector. The DB25 can look exactly like a parallel port to hardware that expects that, except that it can output steps at up to 10Mhz
[12:55:29] <fbx90> aha
[12:55:40] <fbx90> and what does it look like to emc2?
[12:55:51] <andypugh> There is a special driver.
[12:55:59] <fbx90> neat
[12:56:35] <andypugh> Manual page is here"
http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/html/man/man9/hostmot2.9.html
[12:57:08] <andypugh> But there is a configuration wizard too:
http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/html/config/pncconf.html
[12:58:10] <fbx90> f'n awesome
[12:58:15] <fbx90> 89 bucks is a steal
[12:59:49] <fbx90> thanks
[13:00:04] <fbx90> as an aside, can i run steppers and servos at the same time?
[13:00:39] <andypugh> Yes.
[13:01:41] <fbx90> great
[13:01:44] <andypugh> You might want to look at the 5i25 / 7i76 combination if you have any expectation of wanting more IO or to control a spindle VFD. ($200 for the kit). You can add a 7i77 to the extra header on the 5i25 (or swap)
[13:03:24] <andypugh> What the 7i76 does is take 5 sets of step/dir pins from the looks-like-a-parallel-port connector, and then also runs a bunch of other IO from some fast serial comms on the remaining pins. So you get 32 (I think?) general-purpose inputs and outpits (limit switches etc) and a 0-10V drive for a spindle.
[13:07:10] <micges> on 7i76 there is 32 inputs and 16 outputs
[13:07:43] <micges> andypugh: yay for mesanet online store!
[13:08:30] <andypugh> I wonder when it will actually start to work?
[13:09:47] <micges> I've no idea
[13:10:12] <andypugh> PCW mentioned it was close, I just decided to guess the URL ;-)
[13:10:58] <micges> ha
[13:11:55] <micges> I haven't spoken with PCW few weeks
[13:13:49] <pcw_home> People here have been dutifully copy/pasting things so its pretty close
[13:14:32] <micges> cool!
[13:14:37] <micges> hi pcw_home
[13:14:53] <pcw_home> Hi micges
[13:15:11] <micges> pcw_home: andypugh: my last few weeks:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KBA5C3Fyp4
[13:15:26] <micges> biesse 346ATC wood center
[13:16:34] <pcw_home> I expected baby pictures
[13:17:01] <micges> not yet :)
[13:41:12] <WalterN> where is a good place to get anodizing colors/dye?
[13:41:41] <AR__> google.com
[13:41:56] <Loetmichel> WalterN: i was told that easter egg colors shall work.
[13:42:08] <Loetmichel> for red and black i can confirm that
[13:42:23] <WalterN> I'm thinking along the lines of blue and black
[13:42:44] <WalterN> I kinda want to try this out too...
http://img226.imageshack.us/img226/3695/dscn1152ku7.jpg
[13:42:57] <Loetmichel> also Pelikan 4001 black shall work (not tested that though)
[13:44:46] <WalterN> hmm... so I need to mask it
[13:45:12] <WalterN> after anodizing
[13:45:15] <AR__> just swirl it
[13:47:23] <archivist> that pattern looks like it was floating on the surface of the batch not a mix
[13:47:38] <WalterN> ..?
[13:48:08] <archivist> immiscible liquids
[13:48:11] <WalterN> you mean like... squirt some dye on the surface of the anodize pool, and slowly submerge it?
[13:49:37] <archivist> I imagine some experimentation required....I wonder what the failure rate will be
[13:50:08] <WalterN> probably really high, considering I've never done anything related to anodizing before
[13:50:09] <archivist> do you know how to strip and redo anodising too
[13:51:01] <WalterN> well, I have plenty of scrap aluminum bar ends to test with anyway
[13:52:28] <WalterN> if I remember correctly, the actual anodize bath is mostly just the dye and an acid bath?
[13:52:45] <frallzor> Aluminium/steel in all its glory, but PC seems pretty sturdy in this application....
http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/9493/n20k.jpg
[13:53:43] <archivist> we had hot caustic vats too at an anodising company I worked at 40 years ago
[13:54:54] <FinboySlick> archivist: But that would mean you're old!
[13:55:20] <archivist> that and the sulphuric fumes one does not catch the common cold while working there
[13:55:44] <archivist> erm ... was a while ago
[13:55:55] <Loetmichel> archivist: AND the nose is free all the time... even when having a bad cold ;-)
[13:56:33] <WalterN> hmm
[13:56:40] <archivist> takes a week or three to be able to breath :)
[13:57:25] <Loetmichel> archivist: my wife says i am "nose deaf" already, so i have no big problem with that ;-)
[13:57:41] <archivist> the factory was working on extrusions so had 30ft long vats ish
[13:57:49] <Loetmichel> nice
[13:58:13] <Loetmichel> and hopefully NO aluminium in the construction of the building anywhere ;-)
[13:59:31] <archivist> both factories of that company are still in use for other purposes
[14:01:20] <WalterN> herm
[14:01:29] <WalterN> whatdo about this splash anodizing
[14:03:46] <WalterN> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkbFqVZ-ee0
[14:04:08] <WalterN> oh I see
[14:04:17] <fbx90> frallzor: whachya makin?
[14:04:34] <frallzor> 3Dprinter, mockup parts atm
[14:05:01] <fbx90> will there be a gantry arm connecting those two upper carriages?
[14:05:14] <frallzor> yup
[14:05:16] <fbx90> cool
[14:05:33] <fbx90> i love those little roller carriages
[14:05:33] <WalterN> hmm
[14:05:35] <frallzor> same linear rail as the others on it
[14:05:35] <fbx90> i don't love the price
[14:05:55] <frallzor> I am not afraid to ask for stuff, got it all free for publicity =)
[14:06:26] <fbx90> who makes them?
[14:06:40] <frallzor> hmm dunno which brand there are actually
[14:07:37] <WalterN> so I just need something goopy that acid wont really touch
[14:07:56] <fbx90> i think all of mine are IKO
[14:07:59] <WalterN> but can easily remove later on
[14:08:09] <archivist> WalterN, no acid during the dye stage iirc
[14:08:18] <WalterN> what?
[14:08:45] <archivist> the dye soaks into the pores of the anodising
[14:09:40] <archivist> multiple stages etch, anodise, dye, seal
[14:10:53] <WalterN> I thought it was acid+dye
[14:11:41] <WalterN> oh
[14:11:50] <WalterN> dip it in the dye, then acid bath
[14:12:11] <archivist> doubt it
[14:12:21] <WalterN> the other way around?
[14:12:32] <archivist> seal after dye
[14:12:42] <WalterN> watching
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsXVebkbhqQ
[14:18:45] <fbx90> what does the seal consist of?
[14:19:05] <WalterN> stuff that I know nothing about
[14:20:54] <Loetmichel> normally: boiling water
[14:22:46] <Loetmichel> fbx90: i have used simply bouling tap water for about 20 minutes after dying
[14:23:00] <Loetmichel> dyeing
[14:23:23] <Loetmichel> boiling
[14:24:04] <Loetmichel> archivist: the etch as first step can be omitted if the part is already clean and oxide-free
[14:27:24] <archivist> ally oxide free!
[14:27:35] <fbx90> ally ally oxide free?
[14:27:52] <WalterN> hmm
[14:28:12] <archivist> the reason it stays shiny is the oxide layer that rapidly forms
[14:28:22] <archivist> same a chrome
[14:28:25] <archivist> as
[14:28:28] <WalterN> what if it was colored WD40 floating on top of the dye bath, to get the splash effect?
[14:29:47] <archivist> dunno, will it wet/soak in properly etc
[14:32:33] <WalterN> thats kinda why I ask
[14:34:00] <archivist> we were not dyeing only anodizing for protection
[14:38:36] <cradek> what diameter is the stem on those 1" travel dial indicators?
[14:40:37] <`Nerobro> .... why would colored wd40 do anything? Unless you're trying to encapsulate aeromatic oils.
[14:57:32] <cradek> I think they're all the same, but I can't find anything that tells me what the number is
[14:59:01] <cradek> bet it's 3/8
[15:18:43] <Loetmichel> `Nerobro: nearly all anodizing colors are water soluble. so if there is some oil on the part: no colouring there
[15:23:37] <fbx90> Loetmichel: are you trying to marble the dye?
[15:23:53] <Loetmichel> not me
[15:24:07] <Loetmichel> WalterN
[15:26:25] <Loetmichel> btw: if you ant a personalized anodized item: just touch it with bare hands prior to dyeing.
[15:26:44] <Loetmichel> -> voila: nearly indestructible fingerprints ;-)
[15:26:55] <Loetmichel> (dont ask how i know ;-)
[15:30:26] <AR__> man flycutting is fun
[15:30:57] <Loetmichel> AR__: only when you donst stand wehre the cutter can hit you ;-)
[15:31:03] <AR__> lol
[15:31:11] * Loetmichel hat done something similar...
[15:31:12] <AR__> i have no shields and no glasses on :D
[15:31:34] <fbx90> how big of a radius is it cutting?
[15:32:01] <frallzor> http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/7456/p466.jpg I just love PC, so nice to machine =)
[15:32:37] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=5468
[15:32:44] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=5474
[15:32:49] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=5471
[15:32:56] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=5465
[15:33:30] <AR__> fbx90, only about 1.25
[15:33:40] <Loetmichel> ... i admit: i stood so that the gantry sinde was between me and the 80mm sawblade @ 20krpm :-)
[15:34:15] <Loetmichel> side
[15:35:39] <fbx90> we have some 8"x8" plates that were fly cut in a single pass
[15:35:52] <fbx90> but we outsourced those
[15:36:06] <fbx90> they're going to do 12"x12" for us next
[15:38:40] <Loetmichel> fbx90: als long as it isnt 12'x12' ;-)
[15:38:54] <fbx90> that would be pretty insane
[15:39:00] <fbx90> i'd like to see that
[15:39:06] <fbx90> (from a helicopter hovering above)
[15:39:58] <JT-Shop> Aero-Tec2: thanks for the heads up on the leaking door
[15:41:19] <Loetmichel> fbx90: ... with the cutter tied to a main rotor blade ;-)
[15:42:25] <fbx90> Loetmichel: lol
[16:28:30] <fbx90> so i have this probotix stepper driver
[16:28:45] <fbx90> is there any way to change whether it microsteps or not?
[16:28:48] <fbx90> or is that hardcoded?
[16:30:00] * fbx90 looks for a manual
[16:32:55] <fbx90> looks like there is a jumper
[16:33:00] <fbx90> inside zee box
[16:33:07] * fbx90 opens it up
[16:36:04] <DJ9DJ> gn8
[16:49:46] <fbx90> hooray quarter steps
[16:51:08] <fbx90> smooth
[16:55:05] <JT-Shop> interesting there is not enough make up air to keep the glovebox gloves from getting sucked off the flanges when the vacuum is on
[17:04:16] <Tom_itx> JT-Shop, did you find a sand box to play with?
[17:13:13] <CaptHindsight> sealer for anodize can range from just DI water to DI water + nickel and other secret ingredients to lower the seal temp
[17:14:19] <CaptHindsight> before the anodized layer is sealed the pores in the oxide vary from a few to <100nm in diameter
[17:15:05] <CaptHindsight> anything that fits can be sealed in the pores, this generally excludes pigments unless they are ball milled <20nm
[17:15:44] <CaptHindsight> dyes are in solution so their molecules will easily fit
[17:16:13] <CaptHindsight> dye baths are typically water + any water soluble dye
[17:17:17] <CaptHindsight> you can get fancy by using masks for different layers or using solvent based dye along with water based
[17:17:52] <CaptHindsight> we also use solvent inkjets to get photo res prints in anodize
[17:18:51] <CaptHindsight> you can even brush, dip, airbrush, splash etc solvent based dye first then dye bath in water to fill the background
[17:19:29] <CaptHindsight> some of the water based dye will washout during sealing, the solvent dye based will not
[17:23:18] <CaptHindsight> WalterN: the swirl patterns might also be done by a water based dye bath for a solid background with a solvent/oil based dye on the surface, as you submerse it and agitate the mix it will produce the patterns
[17:24:36] <CaptHindsight> permanent markers are also great for custom artwork, you just can easily erase mistakes
[17:24:38] <CaptHindsight> can/can't
