#linuxcnc | Logs for 2013-06-01

[00:43:33] <KimK> GammaX: I scrolled back, I'm not sure you got an answer on your pneumatics question. Did anyone reply? Or did you get it figured out?
[01:51:03] <RyanS> I've seen a few DIY power drawbars all seem to use pneumatic cylinders. Not possible to use electric cylinder?
[02:01:33] <archivist> the forces are very high, much easier with pneumatics
[02:15:10] <DJ9DJ> moin
[02:20:32] <RyanS> There are some pretty strong electric cylinders these days.. Probably not as compact however
[02:32:39] <RyanS> jeez those small bandsaws are slow
[02:44:37] <Jymmm> Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamn she's good... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxgQi4B89KY
[02:44:41] <Tecan> (xxgQi4B89KY) "Jessica Smith and Luke Comiskey - My Love (Justin Timberlake Cover - Block C Live Sessions EP 7)" by "Cian Donohoe" is "Music" - Length: 0:05:33
[02:49:29] <Tecan> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hez6tDpiWDA shinedown - dimond eyes
[06:18:52] <jthornton> dang rain fouls up the transmission of secrets to the space ship
[06:47:50] <Loetmichel> mornin'
[09:30:20] <Tom_itx> JT-Shop, is ladder logic case sensitive?
[09:31:48] <jthornton> do you mean the %I1 stuff? yes
[09:32:12] <Tom_itx> i don't know what i mean. i just started looking at your tut
[09:32:38] <Tom_itx> previous experience tells me to ask
[09:32:59] <jthornton> %i1 will not work only %I1
[09:33:14] <Tom_itx> all upper case then?
[09:33:36] <jthornton> yes
[09:33:45] <jthornton> for ClassicLadder at least
[09:34:23] <Tom_itx> it would be a long time before i'm ready for ContemporaryLadder
[09:34:33] <jthornton> lol
[09:35:33] <jthornton> is the tutorial clear as mud?
[09:35:49] <Tom_itx> nothing is clear yet. just woke up
[09:35:58] <Tom_itx> overslept
[09:36:22] <DJ9DJ> re
[09:37:39] <Tom_itx> so [] designates input and () designates output
[09:38:26] <jthornton> yes
[09:39:29] <Tom_itx> how do you connect them to signals?
[09:39:51] <jthornton> in HAL
[09:40:21] <Tom_itx> using %I1 as the designator?
[09:40:49] <Tom_itx> button.is-on => %I1
[09:40:59] <steve_stallings> JT - if the BeagleBone area gets created on the forum, will it be possible to subscribe to just that area? For me the forum runs painfully slow and I would hope to mostly read it by email.
[09:42:42] <jthornton> steve_stallings, if I make you a moderator you will get an email from every post in the BeagleBone, that is the only way I know how to do this
[09:44:31] <steve_stallings> JT - there is a button on the forum that says "subscribe to this category", but I am uncertain granular a "category" is
[09:44:50] <steve_stallings> JT - .... how granular....
[09:44:55] <jthornton> Tom_itx, this is a line from hal net prox-1 classicladder.0.in-01 <= pyvcp.prox-1
[09:45:30] <jthornton> internet is painfully slow for me due to the rain
[09:45:40] <Tom_itx> i'll wait for part 4 :)
[09:46:11] <jthornton> steve_stallings, give it a try and see
[09:48:39] <jthornton> what should be in part 4?
[09:51:22] <jthornton> mhaberler, does that work for you?
[09:51:23] <steve_stallings> JT - thanks for creating the category BeagleBone on the forum, I have subscribed and posted the first message
[09:52:08] <jthornton> no problem, glad I could help
[09:52:12] <steve_stallings> ... or at least tried to post the first message.... still waiting for the forum to respond
[09:54:22] <mhaberler> sometimes I ask myselves how many folks we're driving away rather than attracting with these response times
[09:56:49] <jthornton> Yea, I see your post
[09:56:58] <mhaberler> jthornton: thanks a lot! finally saw it
[10:02:36] <carper64_lb> hello gents
[10:12:21] <Tom_itx> jthornton, good question. i don't know anything about ClassicLadder
[10:12:44] <Tom_itx> connecting the logic to real IO?
[10:13:42] <Tom_itx> how you let linuxcnc you have a logic file...
[10:13:59] <Tom_itx> know^
[10:56:06] <JT-Shop> Tom_itx: you just connect in HAL the inputs and outputs to classicladder just like the pyvcp example line
[11:05:59] <PetefromTn> morning everyone
[11:14:48] <Tom_itx> JT-Shop, i may try it just to try it one of these days
[11:29:45] <JT-Shop> what?
[11:30:25] <Tom_itx> classicladder
[11:30:38] <Tom_itx> just for the 'experience'
[11:30:54] <JT-Shop> yea and for fun, start slow
[11:30:59] <Tom_itx> not sure what example i would use it on
[11:32:39] <JT-Shop> make up one that needs a timer or a counter so it is fun
[11:33:21] <Tom_itx> i played with fpga just for the heck of it but i don't think i'd ever get into programming them as a habbit
[12:21:09] <IchGuckLive> hi all B)
[12:23:19] <DJ9DJ> hi there
[12:26:42] <Tom_itx> oh, andypugh one problem i have now is all the macros that i installed aren't visible under 8.04
[12:26:55] <Tom_itx> i copied my configs over from the other pc
[12:27:09] <Tom_itx> it's just a path issue but i gotta find where they're stored
[12:27:26] <andypugh> Which macros?
[12:27:35] <andypugh> (And why me?)
[12:27:44] <Tom_itx> the ones that are packaged with 2.5.2
[12:28:04] <Tom_itx> probably because you responded to my 8.04 update question the other day
[12:28:40] <Tom_itx> i'll find it, i just haven't looked yet
[12:29:13] <andypugh> I think that the difference might be the SUBROUTINE_PATH INI entry that got added.
[12:29:28] <Tom_itx> or maybe the macros themselves aren't there yet
[12:30:08] <Tom_itx> do you remember the link for installing them? i had it at one time..
[12:30:53] <Tom_itx> my interweb is sure slow today
[12:38:34] <Tom_itx> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/html/gui/ngcgui.html
[12:38:39] <Tom_itx> that must be it
[13:13:44] <IchGuckLive> im off By have a nice weekend where ever you are in the world
[15:38:03] <JT-Shop> happy Saturday http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skFWsc_-i14
[15:38:22] <Tecan> (skFWsc_-i14) "You can't rollerskate in a buffaloherd - roger miller" by "usetheroute93" is "Music" - Length: 0:01:58
[15:39:53] <pdurbin> huh. I've never seen a bot do that
[16:12:03] <DJ9DJ> gn8
[20:30:50] <tjtr33> xyzabc vismach homes now http://videobin.org/+6n3/7w4.html
[20:34:46] <KimK> RyanS: I was just scrolling back, actually there were some machines built that used an electric impact wrench (with a classic threaded drawbar and toolholder), but they may still have had a pneumatic pushdown/preload, if it's the need for shop air you're trying to eliminate. If so, maybe you could come up with some kind of electric "wrench lowering" device?
[20:36:02] <andypugh> I didn't see that message
[20:36:21] <Tom_itx> does ngcgui macros need to be root or does it matter?
[20:36:23] <andypugh> Having a compressor in the worksop really is no hardship.
[20:36:58] <petemckenna> Hello, anyone have a moment to field a question to help me get the rip version of LinuxCNC configured better?
[20:37:10] <petemckenna> Opps rip that should be
[20:37:16] <andypugh> Don't ask to ask, just ask :-)
[20:37:25] <petemckenna> damn it, auto correct
[20:37:41] <Tom_itx> having a bitch of a time copying them over to my thumb drive
[20:37:59] <Tom_itx> lack of linux experience is shining thru
[20:37:59] <petemckenna> If i change the dirhold and steplen, should I see them change in the parameters section of the Hal Configuration?
[20:38:38] <petemckenna> My fear is they may not be implemented in the rpi_stepgen code, which I don't have the source for
[20:39:11] <petemckenna> Andy I know you played with the code a bit, did you ever run drivers with it?
[20:39:24] <andypugh> I don't know if anyone has the RPi stepper sourcecode other than Mungkie
[20:39:52] <petemckenna> I don't think so, that's the rub, and why I'm looking for evidence of change, vs. consulting the code
[20:40:11] <andypugh> I have not used it for anything yet. However there are a batch of breakout PCBs on their way to me from China if you want one :-)
[20:41:06] <petemckenna> I have a bunch of the Sparkfun level converters wedged in between currently, I can get two of the 3 motors to run OK, but rough, and I think the dirhold and steplen are off
[20:41:44] <petemckenna> Is my thought on how to check in the Hal Configuration valid?
[20:43:17] <andypugh> Tom_itx: emailed the PCB artwork on the 26th, they shipped on the 31st. That's not a bad service at $1 per board.
[20:43:33] <Tom_itx> no
[20:43:47] <Tom_itx> usually takes 3-4 weeks to arrive here after that
[20:44:16] <Tom_itx> someone did a review of several board houses... i wish i could find it for you
[20:44:20] <Tom_itx> quality varies quite a bit
[20:45:08] <andypugh> I am sure it does, and I dount that Seeed use the same one every time (I don't think that they actually are one).
[20:45:13] <Tom_itx> i've used them a couple times
[20:45:14] <petemckenna> I saw that review, they broke it down by quantity needed and gave the best price for each, if that's the same one you are thinking of, maybe it was posted on hackaday
[20:45:42] <andypugh> Half the boards come with a mark to show that they were electically tested, so those at least should be good.
[20:45:43] <Tom_itx> no, they're just a board broker
[20:45:48] <KimK> petemckenna: You can certainly check (read back your changes) from the hal command line, if that helps.
[20:46:06] <Tom_itx> you can look for indents in the pads for electrical checks
[20:46:17] <Tom_itx> where the spring clips touch
[20:47:09] <andypugh> I would like to see that machine. To test boards at all at the price level it has to be auto-configuring
[20:47:26] <petemckenna> KimK the hal command line? I was trying the Hal Config tool, and drilling down to the parameters, how would I see this on the hal cmd line?
[20:47:27] <Tom_itx> probably so
[20:48:11] <andypugh> petemckenna: It is often easier to take linuxcnc out of the equation. You can run a hal session at the command line. I do it very often.
[20:48:34] <Tom_itx> andypugh, when i did the update to 2.5.2 the macro files weren't copied to the machine, that's why i'm getting the path errors
[20:48:51] <andypugh> You type "halrun" in the terminal, and then type commands as seen in the HAL file.
[20:49:12] <petemckenna> OK I can dig into that, haven't done it since I got my first joypad running,
[20:49:23] <KimK> petemckenna: If you're talking about the Hal Config screen that runs under axis, it will show the changes, but it often seems to take several seconds to refresh or realize that an update is needed, or something?
[20:50:02] <andypugh> Testing the Rpi stepgen, you would halrun // loadrt threads // loadrt rpistepgen-I-cant-recall-the-details // addf rpistepgen thread1 // start //
[20:50:23] <petemckenna> KimK: I was, I'll try Andy's advice
[20:50:31] <PetefromTn> Evenin' Folks.
[20:50:40] <andypugh> Then commands like show thread, show pin, show funct, show param will show you what is going on.
[20:51:44] <KimK> petemckenna: That would be wise, Andy gives good advice.
[20:52:05] <andypugh> And, for example, you could type setp rpistepgenposcommand.pin 100 and see the step pulses coming out. (you probably need to setp the enable to 1 too.
[20:52:50] <andypugh> Halrun docs: http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/html/man/man1/halrun.1.html
[20:53:22] <andypugh> it's a really useful tool, as it takes all the extra stuff that you aren't interested out of the way.
[20:54:02] <andypugh> In fact, I just realised that the last HAL component I submitted has never been run under actual Linuxcnc.
[20:55:01] <andypugh> In fact, quite a lot of the drivers and components I have written are like that. I test them in halrun, then assume that they work, because I don't have the hardware to test under a full system.
[20:56:50] <andypugh> petemckenna: Are you otto_pjm or is that someone else?
[20:57:01] <petemckenna> That's me
[20:57:30] <petemckenna> I'm getting a failure with the addf part
[20:57:32] <andypugh> OK, just wanted to check.
[20:58:48] <petemckenna> the next line in my hal is - addf rpi_stepgen.make-pulses servo-thread
[20:58:59] <andypugh> I am not sure I entirely understand your forum question, but all that actually matters is the numbers that the HAL file uses. You can alter INI settings until you are blue in the face but if the HAL file isn't using that INI setting, it is no help.
[20:59:36] <andypugh> The "threads" function only creates one thread, called "thread1"
[20:59:54] <petemckenna> main question, how do I alter, or see if I can alter the timing for my drivers?
[21:00:23] <petemckenna> I tried your version - addf rpi_stepgen thread1
[21:00:28] <andypugh> You can just type addf <tab> <tab> and autocomplete will do most of the typing, by the way
[21:00:29] <petemckenna> but that also failed
[21:00:37] <petemckenna> I'll try
[21:01:12] <andypugh> show funct will show you what functions are available to addf
[21:01:27] <petemckenna> nice, this worked - addf rpi_stepgen.make-pulses thread1
[21:03:46] <petemckenna> the options for dirhold and steplen, exist, and it takes the command when I set it, so that's good
[21:04:20] <KimK> While we work on stepgen and hal, where do we currently stand on the 12.04 no-real-time-kernel-yet situation, are there any preliminary kernels available to test? (And good evening to PetefromTn )
[21:09:50] <KimK> I tried to install 10.04 (32) on my E350N, but it didn't like my 1920x1080 HDMI display (it picks 1280x1024, non-native, blurry). I tried 13.04, display good. Went back to 10.04 (64), display bad. Tried 12.04, display good. So it seems I must now make the jump to 12.04, but I want real-time, and I am seeking advice.
[21:12:03] <PetefromTn> Good evening KimK.
[21:13:00] <andypugh> KimK: I think that it is possible to run under Xenomai with 12.04. Not sure about RTAI
[21:15:40] <petemckenna> Andy: I do see the values for dirhold change when I set them in halrun, this doesn't seem to happen in LinuxCNC proper, am I likely not getting the parameters right in my hal file?
[21:16:25] <KimK> I am OK with any flavor of kernel, as long as linuxcnc, hostmot2, etc., are supported. Is this something that must be built, or is it a download from the buildbot or somebody's PPA or some such? How can I begin testing the various (alpha?) options that are available?
[21:17:30] <andypugh> The buildbot it only building sim for Precise.
[21:18:28] <KimK> petemckenna: If you are using HalConfig in Axis to verify your changes, then you might try selecting any other hal parameter, then come back and select the one you changed. Maybe that was the trick?
[21:20:42] <petemckenna> KimK: I'll try that, I'm restarting LinuxCNC with a new file and then comparing the values, what you are suggesting sounds more dynamic, can I use halrun at the same time as running LinuxCNC?
[21:21:39] <KimK> andypugh: OK, thanks. I'll look around, as I thought some devs had begun to bring forth some actual product for testing. petemckenna: Yes, that should be fine.
[21:22:14] <petemckenna> KimK: great I'll keep playing, thanks again, and thanks Andy
[21:22:24] <andypugh> I think that there are people running it, but I haven't been paying attention.
[21:23:23] <andypugh> petemckenna: No, you can't halrun with LinuxCNC active, but only because halrun sets up a hal session.
[21:23:37] <petemckenna> KimK, have you tried building from git - http://git.mah.priv.at/gitweb?p=emc2-dev.git;a=summary it looks like it was merged / resented with 2.5 2 days ago, this is where the RPi capable branch lives, I'm new to all of this so
[21:23:43] <KimK> andypugh: Ha, I wanted to ignore it until it was fully polished myself, but it appears that I must move to the bleeding edge, lol.
[21:23:46] <petemckenna> Andy: OK
[21:24:12] <RyanS> I'm trying to understand how power drawbars work.. do they use a different principle or mechanism for tormach vs R8 (for bringeports) vs BT30/40/50 etc?
[21:24:25] <KimK> andypugh: petemckenna: I stand corrected.
[21:24:32] <andypugh> What you can do is type the same commands at the terminal. For example halcmd setp rpi_stepgen.accel 2
[21:25:31] <toastyde1th> RyanS, "power drawbar" doesn't mean a whole lot because each of those has a slightly different mechanism
[21:25:36] <andypugh> That will send a command to the running realtime system
[21:26:12] <KimK> RyanS: There are two general types of power drawbars, the threaded type and the collet type.
[21:26:26] <toastyde1th> there are two major types of power drawbar, one is the threaded drawbar (r8 and ntmb) and then pull stud, which is the CAT series and some other types
[21:26:50] <andypugh> halcmd at the command line is identical to typing at the show-machine-config window. The advantage is that you can use the up-down arrows for history (a huge advantage, actually) and tab-completion.
[21:26:54] <toastyde1th> threaded drawbar just spins until it's locked in place
[21:27:07] <petemckenna> Andy: OK I'll give that a shot, thank much, I'm sitting about half way under my machine, I need to get up and move about some, I'll play disconnected for awhile and do some learning.
[21:27:13] <toastyde1th> and the pull stud type works by having a spring-opening collet that gets sucked into a tube to close it
[21:27:55] <andypugh> RyanS: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxrzJ_KfcQ0
[21:27:58] <Tecan> (pxrzJ_KfcQ0) "Harrison retrofit automatic drawbar" by "andy pugh" is "Tech" - Length: 0:01:27
[21:28:00] <toastyde1th> and actually, there's HSK tooling, which IIRC is a reverse-pullstud in that the collet expands inside the holder
[21:28:45] <KimK> RyanS: The threaded type must be screwed in and out, in the classic style. The collet type generally has a stack of Belleville washers forming a very strong but short-travel spring which holds the tool in. You put pressure on the Belleville stack to release the collet, and the tool.
[21:29:18] <andypugh> I think my video shows nicely how the pullstud version works.
[21:29:25] <RyanS> so tormach is the collet style (but without pullstud)?
[21:29:25] <toastyde1th> it does, that's a great video
[21:29:54] <KimK> I thought Tormach was R-8 ?
[21:29:57] <andypugh> Tormach can be seen as a friction pullstud :-)
[21:30:08] <KimK> Ah
[21:30:20] <toastyde1th> here's hsk: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fc8_YTCuZgE
[21:30:22] <Tecan> (fc8_YTCuZgE) "OTT-Jakob HSK power drawbar / clamping system" by "erhardottjakob" is "Tech" - Length: 0:00:00
[21:31:14] <andypugh> Tormach is an attempt to achieve the clever part of HSK with an R8 spindle.
[21:31:37] <RyanS> so you could think of the traditional threaded style as working exactly the same as you would manually screw the drawbar all the way into the tool holder ?
[21:31:43] <toastyde1th> yep
[21:32:44] <andypugh> If you look at the HSK it is located on the taper, but also clamped on the shoulder for totally predictable length and lots of stiffness. Traditional tapers vary slightly on insertion depth depending on clamp tension.
[21:33:09] <toastyde1th> and actually some really really big milling machines still use the drawbar method because it can kick out big nmtb tapers easily, like 60 and 70
[21:33:20] <andypugh> Tormach TTS also clamps hard on the spindle nose.
[21:33:22] <toastyde1th> so you aren't sitting there with a hammer trying to change tools
[21:33:43] <RyanS> so threaded style of power drawbar would have all the problems associated with not having a repeatable Z height ?
[21:33:47] <andypugh> (I rather like Tormach TTS, though I have never even seen it in the metal)
[21:34:07] <toastyde1th> ryan, how "repeatable" are you trying to be
[21:34:25] <KimK> A threaded drawbar (if used with a tapered toolholder) will work fine. That's the "classic" style.
[21:34:33] <andypugh> RyanS: In practice, as it is a fast taper, and predicatble torque, there should be very little variation.
[21:35:02] <toastyde1th> I've never had a major issue with tool repeatability even with threaded drawbars
[21:35:55] <toastyde1th> hsk is trying to solve a very specific problem and the tolerances on all mating surfaces are 20 millionths, with 10 millionth concentricity
[21:36:03] <RyanS> so what's the point of TTS? They seem to make a really big deal about Z height repeatability
[21:36:14] <toastyde1th> sales?
[21:36:57] <RyanS> I guess there's that
[21:37:01] <RyanS> bbk
[21:37:35] * KimK wonders about that claim, since the tool is going in (shortening Z) while it's tightening, but is too polite to say anything
[21:38:06] <andypugh> TTS is a lot shorter than R8. That can be a huge advantage if you can't get your work 4" from the tool tip....
[21:38:21] <Tom_itx> if i get a 'symbolic link' error copying a file, where can i find the file so i can copy it?
[21:38:42] <Tom_itx> in the ngcgui_lib directory
[21:38:44] <andypugh> KimK: TTS clamps hard against the spindle nose.
[21:39:07] <toastyde1th> Tom_itx, http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110619154242AAHzjPr ?
[21:39:37] <toastyde1th> i guess i should have linked the manpage but yahoo was faster
[21:40:12] <tjtr33> Tom_itx, try man ls i think ls -a nameofsymlink should reveal the actual file when given the link
[21:42:03] <tjtr33> ls -la symlinkname works for me
[21:42:17] <KimK> andypugh: Oh, it's not just a powered R-8? Well then, if it's pulling against the spindle nose, doesn't that cause shank/collet wear? I seem to recall that there's no free lunch.
[21:42:34] <toastyde1th> I'm still confused why this is even an issue
[21:44:29] <jdh> TTS uses a 3/4" collet, you could replace it cheap if it wore.
[21:44:53] <andypugh> KimK: No, TTS is an R8 collet that doesn't protrude past the spindle nose, to it first grabs the toolholder, then pullls it against the spindle nose.
[21:45:01] <Tom_itx> thanks
[21:45:17] <andypugh> I don't know if it slides or not.
[21:45:19] <Tom_itx> now to go to the shop to see if they install
[21:49:26] <tjtr33> ( OT a very good reading of the Hobbit w/o the video junk we're supplied by Hollywood. :) http://archive.org/details/NicolWilliamsonPerformsJ.r.r.TolkiensTheHobbit )
[21:53:35] <toastyde1th> hahah, the TTS system is just a standard R8 spindle with a flat face on the r8 collet. that's fucking hilarious.
[21:53:48] <toastyde1th> it is no better at holding z height than any other R8 collet
[21:54:08] <jdh> the z height is relative to the spindle nose, not the collet
[21:54:55] <toastyde1th> "holding z height" means repeatability between tool changes, it doesn't matter where you measure it from
[21:55:22] <jdh> sure it does
[21:55:33] <toastyde1th> i could measure tool repeatability from across the shop
[21:55:48] <toastyde1th> take the tool out, put it back in - how much change is there?
[21:56:12] <jdh> I don't have one
[21:56:23] <jdh> but, from watching it, it should be pretty much no change.
[21:56:37] <toastyde1th> no no, that's the process for checking how well a toolholding system repeats
[21:56:49] <toastyde1th> it wasn't a direct challenge
[21:57:01] <jdh> I understand. The collet doesn't matter though
[21:57:04] <toastyde1th> and how tormach works is exactly like how any other R8 collet works
[21:57:09] <jdh> no
[21:57:11] <toastyde1th> yes
[21:57:36] <toastyde1th> the collet's repeat height is set by the drawbar tension
[21:57:47] <jdh> the tool holder indexes against the spindle nose, not the collet
[21:58:15] <toastyde1th> then i hope you have a machine where the collet doesn't have a lot of overhand
[21:58:19] <toastyde1th> *collet
[21:58:24] <toastyde1th> *overhang
[21:58:33] <jdh> other than elasticity in the tool holder and spindle, the drawbar tension shouldn't affect z height
[21:58:55] <jdh> the collets are flat, the tool holders have an inset so they do not contact the face of the collet
[22:00:01] <toastyde1th> that makes more sense, but does rely on you having a machine with an appropriate spindle nose.
[22:00:29] <jdh> I think there is a procedure for truing the nose
[22:00:38] <toastyde1th> some bp clones have a taper nose
[22:00:51] <toastyde1th> and are already undercut wrt the r8 taper
[22:01:06] <zeroquake> hello, is there an emc channel ??
[22:01:13] <Tom_shop> this is it
[22:01:28] <toastyde1th> but even still, and going back to my original point - repeatability with r8 isn't an issue
[22:01:33] <Tom_shop> if you joined emc you were redirected
[22:01:41] <toastyde1th> i'm not sure what problem tormach is solving
[22:01:50] <zeroquake> yes , i was redirected to here
[22:02:06] <Tom_shop> it's a long story but this is where you wanna be
[22:02:08] <jdh> how do you maintain tool height with normal r8?
[22:02:30] <zeroquake> i wanted to know about emc products -- other than info on their website
[22:02:31] <Tom_shop> so next time just join #linuxcnc
[22:02:42] <Tom_shop> ask away
[22:02:50] <jdh> I think you have the wrong EMC
[22:02:57] <Tom_shop> mmm possibly
[22:02:58] <tjtr33> zeroquake, this is a machine too control channel,for linuxcnc ( previously called emc, but renamed due to some lawyer stuff )
[22:03:19] <zeroquake> yah realized that after going through the above mentioned website
[22:03:31] <toastyde1th> jdh, any er32 collet, endmill holder, etc repeats quite accurately with a wide range of drawbar tensions
[22:03:37] <toastyde1th> with the stock r8 taper
[22:03:49] <zeroquake> emc2 is empty though , not related but any channel for emc2 products?
[22:04:00] <toastyde1th> less than a tenth in my experience, which is more accurate than most machines can repeat in z
[22:04:58] <RyanS> ok is the traditional R8 for bridgeports screw in type?
[22:05:05] <toastyde1th> yep
[22:05:05] <Tom_shop> zeroquake, no idea
[22:05:10] <jdh> TTS seems like a reasonable solution for easy tool indexing, quick chanes, less Z space needed for tool changes.
[22:05:23] <jdh> for smallish mills anyway
[22:05:30] <Tom_shop> ok looks like things are somewhat back to normal here
[22:05:35] <zeroquake> np tom ty :)
[22:05:39] <RyanS> Doesn't it strip the thread eventually?
[22:05:59] <toastyde1th> no?
[22:06:15] <toastyde1th> the only time i've had to replace an r8 drawbar was a really really bad crash
[22:06:32] <toastyde1th> and we had to pull the table off the mill to replace the ballscrew yolk as well
[22:06:41] <RyanS> Stretch the thread, or simply needs to be hardened and high tensile?
[22:06:55] <toastyde1th> it's semi-hard, dunno what they're made of
[22:07:04] <toastyde1th> same thing as you'd see on a vise
[22:07:10] <tjtr33> it seemed the drawbar was messed up before the collets ( people whacking the drawbar ith mallets to release ) the key wore before the threads
[22:08:11] <toastyde1th> the only advantage i can see of the TTS system is the less z height needed for tool change
[22:08:38] <tjtr33> less z height sounds like less holding
[22:08:41] <jdh> it's fast
[22:08:51] <toastyde1th> so is power drawbar r8
[22:09:12] <RyanS> It is impossible to have Morse taper threaded power drawbar because you have to whack it out with a drift?
[22:09:23] <toastyde1th> no, you just hit the ass end of the thing with a hammer
[22:09:25] <jdh> I'd rather have a rack of TTS holders than r8 holders
[22:10:05] <toastyde1th> or you can hit the tool gently, with a hard face hammer
[22:10:14] <toastyde1th> a couple taps and it will vibrate free most of the time
[22:10:22] <toastyde1th> radially, not on-axis
[22:10:23] <RyanS> Isn't that what a drill drift is for?
[22:10:44] <toastyde1th> some machines with an power morse taper don't have space for a drift
[22:10:49] <toastyde1th> the drawbar's built to kick it out
[22:11:39] <toastyde1th> (sometimes it doesn't, hence the hammer)
[22:12:41] <tjtr33> ( ot: metric and inch i can get along with, but 12oz/330ml for a unit of beer size is just stupidly small and useless )
[22:13:42] <RyanS> right, so in Australia the Sieg machines are supplied with MT3.. So to have a power drawbar to implement an ATC... There is no choice except TTS with a MT3 collet?
[22:14:25] <RyanS> using a hammer would defeat the purpose..
[22:14:44] <toastyde1th> nah, big machines often get stuck
[22:15:08] <RyanS> In the middle of a CNC program?!
[22:15:10] <toastyde1th> yep
[22:15:12] <KimK> RyanS: There is a critical angle involved for an internal taper, I've forgotten, something like 16.5 degrees? Anyway, if it's shallower than that it will get stuck every time (like Morse taper). But if it's broader than that it's supposed to be impossible to get stuck in, it should fall out every time, like MNTB 30, BT 40, CAT 50, etc. (Though it is still possible for it to get stuck for other reasons).
[22:15:35] <toastyde1th> two of our machines were CAT-50, and they often got stuck in the middle of a toolchange after heavy roughing
[22:15:57] <RyanS> Wouldn't that be disastrous?
[22:16:00] <toastyde1th> no?
[22:16:18] <toastyde1th> the tool arm goes "lol didn't work" and goes back, then the machine throws an alarm.
[22:16:29] <RyanS> oh
[22:16:35] <toastyde1th> and it sits there and that little annoying fucking light goes off until someone hits it with a hammer and resumes
[22:17:58] <KimK> Or sometimes the tool change arm waits forever, still pulling on the tool, lol.
[22:18:09] <toastyde1th> "HURRRRR GIVE ME A SECOND"
[22:18:10] <toastyde1th> "I GOT IT"
[22:18:15] <toastyde1th> No, machine, you're drunk. go home.
[22:18:28] <KimK> lol
[22:19:05] <toastyde1th> also the tool that gets stuck is inevitably the 60 pound facemill
[22:19:14] <RyanS> andypugh in the video that's BT30?
[22:19:33] <toastyde1th> and you have to stand on the machine table, hold the tool in with your knee, and beat the living crap out of it with a hammer until it lets go
[22:20:27] <toastyde1th> brb
[22:21:16] <andypugh> RyanS: Yes. Well it is in the video. I got a bunch of SK30 holders cheap so now it is SK30 (I shortened one drive dog) but with BT30 pull-studs. When Harrison built it it was 30 INT. All the 30-tapers are pretty much the same.
[22:22:04] <RyanS> pull stud has a claw thingy on the drawbar that yanks the stud upwards?
[22:22:31] <andypugh> Yes. Though there are also designs that use balls in holes.
[22:24:19] <andypugh> My drawbar design is a bit unusual as I had to fit in the bore of the original 30INT drawbar.
[22:25:17] <RyanS> the toolholder doesn't simply fall out when you activate the drawbar ? It needs a gentle pull?
[22:25:31] <andypugh> (I will admit I am really quite proud of that drawbar, it continues to work flawlesly, unlike most things I make.
[22:26:56] <RyanS> what the fuck http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUk7q2ScWhA that's an impact wrench..
[22:26:59] <Tecan> (BUk7q2ScWhA) "Power Drawbar" by "David Padilla" is "Tech" - Length: 0:00:21
[22:27:17] <jdh> that might be enough to shake an mt3 out
[22:28:55] <andypugh> Quite common, and quite effective. It only needs a collar on the drawbar and a shoulder on the mechanism to actively push the tool out.
[22:33:43] <RyanS> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhxwNzQJ4as probably the solution for mt3?
[22:33:45] <Tecan> (ZhxwNzQJ4as) "WMT Power Drawbar" by "intagliode" is "Tech" - Length: 0:00:50
[22:34:43] <jdh> there are usually lots of cheap impact wrench based power drawbars on ebay.
[22:35:03] <RyanS> for mt3?
[22:35:28] <jdh> R8 usually
[22:40:59] <RyanS> is tts actually threaded into its r8 collet and the power drawbar pulls on the collet because it's permanently attached?
[22:42:03] <jdh> the tool holder has a 3/4" shank that fits in a mostly normal 3/4" collet
[22:43:11] <jdh> but, I don't think I know what you are asking :)
[22:43:26] <RyanS> What would you do if the majority of machines I'm looking at in Australia are mt3? Try to get r8
[22:44:04] <tjtr33> didnt find the drawbar at first, here it is http://www.intaglio.co.nz/hm462.html ( yes more options for r8 http://www.jeffalbro.net/articles/quick-change-toolholders )
[22:44:05] <jdh> for seigs, you can generally swap spindles
[22:44:33] <andypugh> TTS ought to work fine with a MT3 and a modified 3/4" morse collet
[22:45:09] <jdh> the tool holders should work fine. Making an ATC with a MT3 might not.
[22:45:15] <RyanS> this http://www.tormach.com/store/index.php?app=ecom&ns=prodshow&ref=30251
[22:46:13] <andypugh> I was going to make my own 20mm variant, but then gave up on the MT3 mill, and bought a 30-taper one.
[22:47:24] <RyanS> So the drawbar is threaded into the top of the collet (in tts)? And even if you don't have the power drawbar you only need to loosen the nut rather than actually unscrew the drawbar completely out of a toolholder
[22:47:43] <jdh> more or less
[22:47:56] <andypugh> With the exceptions of the Hayes Diemaster and some Deckels and Thiels, very few MT millls are worth having. (opinion)
[22:48:56] <RyanS> Because the simplest diy drawbar I have seen is hossmachines plans
[22:49:04] <jdh> the drawbar is threaded in to the r8 collet, regardless of TTS
[22:50:04] <andypugh> RyanS: Link? (naturally I think that mine is the best possible) :-)
[22:50:53] <jdh> bigass air cylinder compressing bellevilles
[22:51:42] <RyanS> umm http://www.hossmachine.info/projects_7.html
[22:52:55] <RyanS> I am not entirely clear however whether tormachs mt3 collet is supposed to work with their power drawbar
[22:53:34] <RyanS> And hence the hoss design
[22:56:22] <andypugh> One plus of my system (and something that Tormach claim for theirs, I think) is that it doesn't just push down into the spindle and load the spindle bearings. There is a "pinch" action to release. However, I don't actually see why pushing down on the top spindle bearing should be a problem.
[22:57:17] <RyanS> well bt30 is a larger machine that I would be looking at
[22:57:52] <jdh> probably has a lot higher axial load than it would normally see.
[22:58:01] <RyanS> It's more sieg x2 or x3 as far as choices,
[22:58:12] <andypugh> Buy the biggest machine you can find a home for. And look carefully at Z height.
[22:58:48] <jdh> is malta related to .uk?
[22:59:45] <RyanS> Definitely can't find home for anything bigger than an x3
[23:00:08] <RyanS> rf45 is probably too big
[23:01:20] <RyanS> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pneumatic-Power-Draw-bar-fits-Bridgeport-J-head-milling-machines-step-pulley-var-/300707103683?pt=BI_Tool_Work_Holding&hash=item46038a43c3
[23:01:34] <RyanS> j-head?...
[23:01:37] <andypugh> jdh: A bit :-)
[23:03:01] <jdh> I bought some stuff from a .uk website, but it shipped from malta with lots of cool stamps
[23:03:24] <andypugh> Malta was ruled by the UK until 1964.
[23:03:48] <Tom_shop> andypugh, http://www.youritronics.com/seeed-studio-vs-itead-studio-vs-osh-park/
[23:03:57] <Tom_shop> board comparison
[23:04:30] <RyanS> And then imperialism went 'out of fashion'
[23:10:05] <RyanS> I find it hard to believe the only limitation to people diying 5-axis cnc is the cost of cam software
[23:10:28] <andypugh> Tom_shop: I rather think that if they claim to do e-test then they do. Why would they lie?
[23:11:16] <Tom_shop> wasn't implying they did. just thought you might like to see a quality comparison
[23:12:25] <andypugh> Malta was awarded the George Cross by the UK government in 1942
[23:16:58] <RyanS> george cross?
[23:18:46] <tjtr33> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Cross "To honour her brave people, I award the George Cross to the Island Fortress of Malta to bear witness to a heroism and devotion that will long be famous in history"
[23:20:38] <andypugh> it's a medal. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Cross
[23:21:25] <tjtr33> re: Imperialism at the Atlanta GA olympics, a Brit buddy was running spot lights, and as many teams tramped onto the field, he'd say "That was one of ours" (over and over and over)
[23:22:20] <andypugh> Yeah, we were important, once.
[23:22:20] <RyanS> I always like this story about 'the lions last roar' it was pretty much the end for British hegemony
[23:23:09] <RyanS> Ironically it was the US telling Britain to get out of a Middle East conflict
[23:29:02] <RyanS> Why the hell would anyone buy a syil x4 its only $400 < tormach 770??
[23:30:23] <RyanS> lol and it has a smaller table templates travel
[23:30:31] <RyanS> And less travel