#linuxcnc | Logs for 2013-04-13

[00:00:10] <Connor> correct
[00:00:20] <Connor> and rev should be 0
[00:00:35] <PetefromTn> Thats fine I am gonna do the voltage checks here now if you wanna hit the hay I understand....
[00:01:10] <Connor> The two diagrams below show input wiring circuits using an external supply. If using the “Sinking Inputs, External Supply” in below wiring diagram, be sure to remove the short bar, and use a diode (*) with the external supply. This will prevent a power supply contention in case the short bar is accidentally placed in the incorrect position. For the “Sourcing Inputs, External Supply”, please connect the short bar as drawn in the diagram below
[00:01:43] <Connor> never mind.. that was about sinking..
[00:01:49] <PetefromTn> Yeah I read that.. The mesa card has built in diodes for that...
[00:02:30] <Connor> so, you need to be sure to tie a gnd to L as well looks like.
[00:03:28] <PetefromTn> okay just hit FWD and checked the proper wire and got 24v and 0 on the other....
[00:03:45] <Connor> for CW and CCW ?
[00:03:49] <Connor> what about the analog out ?
[00:04:52] <PetefromTn> Okay just checked reverse and got 24v on the output and zero on the other so that all works correctly. NICE.
[00:05:24] <PetefromTn> Not sure how to check the output. Went between the two wires and got zero but again Not sure I have any speed set in the software...
[00:05:29] <Connor> good. and the analog voltage in rev vs fwd should still be the same.. (note, after switching, you'll need to hit the + a few times)
[00:05:59] <PetefromTn> WOnder if I goto MDI and input an s value of say 3000 RPM?
[00:06:08] <Connor> you can.
[00:06:19] <Connor> you can also bring up hal configuration.. and look at the pin.
[00:06:46] <Connor> hm2_5i25.0.7i77.0.1.analogout5
[00:07:02] <Connor> should be a value from 0 to 4096 I think.
[00:07:09] <PetefromTn> spindle FWD is m3 right cannot remember right now LOL
[00:07:48] <Connor> Yes. M3 is FWD ON
[00:07:57] <Connor> M4 IS CCW
[00:08:03] <Connor> m5 is stop
[00:09:12] <PetefromTn> Okay just checked and m3 s3000 gives me a fwd command 24v line and 4.9v on the analog output.
[00:09:35] <Connor> that's exactly what you want. around 5v
[00:09:46] <PetefromTn> yup...working FINE...
[00:10:36] <PetefromTn> Okay now that is working I guess I need to power down and move the jumper between L and PLC...
[00:10:57] <Connor> Yup.
[00:11:40] <PetefromTn> You said I might need a ground to L on the input, where would I get it from? The 7i77 or the ground buss
[00:11:54] <Connor> 7i77
[00:12:02] <PetefromTn> or since we are moving the jumper to L maybe I don't need it...
[00:12:10] <Connor> You need to.
[00:12:48] <PetefromTn> Okay then gotta figure out where and how now...
[00:13:16] <Connor> You should have a connector somewhere on the 7i77 for gnd.. I would think.
[00:13:28] <Connor> or one coming off of the 24v power supply.
[00:14:07] <PetefromTn> Okay gonna play with it here a bit. Nice that we have the linuxCNC outputting good info here...
[00:16:49] <PetefromTn> SO I don't understand really here if we put the jumper between PLC and L , L is where the ground would have been.
[00:17:06] <PetefromTn> The L on the next connector down is where the analog input is gounded to....
[00:21:32] <PetefromTn> I think I am gonna configure the output 11 for spindle zero speed for allowing me to setup my power drawbar output safely...
[00:23:21] <Connor> PetefromTn: Huh?
[00:23:50] <Connor> PLC Is the "common" L is ground. we want to tie the VFD ground to the 7i77 ground to keep from having issues.
[00:24:00] <Connor> bottom of page 29
[00:24:14] <PetefromTn> HOLY SHIT IT WORKS!!
[00:26:08] <PetefromTn> just checked it at 500 RPM and got 499.8
[00:26:19] <PetefromTn> at 1k it was equally as close...
[00:29:55] <Connor> Nice.
[00:30:10] <Connor> and you tied L, PLC to a 7i77 gnd ? :)
[00:30:10] <PetefromTn> Okay man other than fine tunning the entire system and getting everything tidied up I belive that is the last thing I was wanting to do for my BASIC machine setup so that I can actually use the machine. AWESOME AWESOME>>>GREAT WORK MY FREINDS>>>
[00:30:42] <Connor> what was you talking about here? I think I am gonna configure the output 11 for spindle zero speed for allowing me to setup my power drawbar output safely...
[00:35:43] <PetefromTn> Basically I already have all of the solid state relays powered up just gotta setup an output to fire the power drawbar so that I can use the drawbar. Don't want it to accidentally fire while the spindle is running so I thought we could tie the power drawbar to spindle zero speed temporarily until we get to the toolchanger setup
[00:36:22] <Connor> Ah.
[00:36:26] <PetefromTn> Read Mike Kilroy's PM to me and he said to test the output current of the VFD at 60hz freq, trying to figure out what that would be in RPM on a scale of 6000...
[00:37:42] <Connor> I'm not following now.. as I didn't get the PM's. :)
[00:38:09] <Connor> I know the VFD has a output for current..
[00:38:28] <Connor> that can be used to show how much load the spindle is under..
[00:39:27] <PetefromTn> No I can monitor the current output in D002
[00:40:00] <PetefromTn> Trying to figure out what percentage 60 HZ is of the max 400 and then correlating that to the same in RPM of the max 6000
[00:41:01] <Connor> 900 ?
[00:41:13] <Connor> (60 / 400) * 6000
[00:41:37] <Connor> 60 of 400 is 14%.. so 14% of 6000 is 900 RPM.
[00:41:42] <Connor> I guess.
[00:44:48] <PetefromTn> Yeah that's what I got too... The spindle is working good but for some reason whenever I decellerate it errors out on me with an E07.2 error. I am sure it is a setting or something. Gonna restart now...
[00:45:31] <Connor> C028 lets you specify what the analog voltage output 0-10 corresponds to.
[00:45:59] <Connor> 00 - freq, 01- current, 02=torque, 04 = voltage etc etc..
[00:47:27] <PetefromTn> Cool..... only got two outputs tho and one has gotta be for the zero speed for toolchange and the other is
[00:47:38] <PetefromTn> for some odd reason M4 is not working....
[00:48:38] <Connor> page 44..
[00:49:20] <PetefromTn> OOps and the spindle motor fan now goes on when the motor is OFF instead of ON LOL...
[00:49:45] <Connor> Ha.
[00:50:53] <PetefromTn> Okay so that means you do not need to use that output for monitoring any of those settings then...pretty sweet. Beginning to like this Hitachi driver LOL...
[00:51:51] <Connor> Yea.. Looks like you use the AM Pin for it..
[00:52:40] <Connor> You have a EO and AM.. Not sure what EO is for.
[00:53:00] <Connor> then you have pin 11 and 12
[00:53:06] <Connor> for On/Off ?
[00:54:35] <Connor> EO is pulse train output.. so, we don't care about it..
[00:54:58] <PetefromTn> Okay got some errors in the LinuxCNC saying smart serial error.... when I slow down the driver or stop it the spindle I mean...
[00:55:16] <Connor> okay. what's the error ?
[00:55:39] <Connor> some of that could be because we don't have the encoder
[00:57:27] <PetefromTn> Oh okay because when I first turned on linuxCNC I got an error on encoder 3 which is odd..
[00:57:50] <Connor> not using a encoder 3 at all..
[00:58:12] <Connor> 0 1 2, and 5 I think
[00:58:19] <PetefromTn> Some funky stuff going on here man LOL... Tell ya what it is getting late and I am EXTREMELY PLEASED that we have gotten this far with the spindle tonight maybe you can drop by tomorrow and we can fine tune this beotch...
[00:58:25] <PetefromTn> Yup 0125...
[00:58:40] <Connor> yea. Sometime after 11am..
[00:58:49] <Connor> I'll call ya
[00:59:44] <PetefromTn> Coolbeans man.. THanks for all your help We are really getting there with this monster here LOL.. Nitey night man. Peace
[00:59:50] <Connor> g'niht
[00:59:57] <PetefromTn> PETEFROMTN SIGNING OFF>..
[01:07:30] <mr_new> good morning
[01:16:09] <r00t4rd3d> good night
[01:18:08] <mr_new> morning not night^^
[01:20:43] <Loetmichel> mornin
[01:24:55] <Loetmichel> *sweating early in the morning* (its 80:10 over here) ... my wife just called: she's back at FFM Airport from 1 week Philadelphia ... got the trash out and moped the kitchen and the bathroom :-)
[01:25:09] <Loetmichel> 08:10
[01:26:25] <mr_new> you should spend her 2 weeks there
[01:26:44] <mr_new> so you would have longer time for your maschines
[01:28:33] <Loetmichel> mr_new: I have stayed here in germany... my wife is in an international team at SAP, so she travels a lot for the company ;-)
[01:29:53] <Loetmichel> ah, now i understand... i won't spend her anything, rather the other way around. her payceck is roughly triple of mine ;-)
[01:44:42] <mr_new> hm how to controll a jäger spindle?
[01:45:33] <mr_new> is it possible, to just generate a 3phases sine square waveform for that?
[01:57:02] <tjtr33> from Intel: "Delivering Deterministic, Real-Time Performance with a Low Cost Intel Atom Processor-based Platform"
[01:57:17] <tjtr33> http://download.intel.com/embedded/processor/whitepaper/324510.pdf
[02:03:57] <DJ9DJ> moin
[07:24:06] <jthornton> maybe andypugh should give the kitchen suppliers in Sheffield a good smack with a frozen mackerel
[07:31:11] <carper64_lb_> better still tell mrs its ordered thenspend kitchen money on cnc lol
[07:32:25] <carper64_lb_> damn wish id thought of that culd be running servos instead of steppers
[07:39:05] <andypugh> <confused>
[07:44:07] <carper64_lb_> andy iam always confused
[07:45:18] <archivist> jthornton, rather long distance kitchen suppliers for you?
[07:57:38] <carper64_lb_> got that much to do and cant be bothered o do anything today
[08:22:28] <grandixximo> hello again
[08:22:54] <grandixximo> i reported this bug https://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=3610734&group_id=6744&atid=106744#
[08:23:10] <grandixximo> it seems the description was misleading
[08:23:17] <grandixximo> or unclear
[08:23:32] <grandixximo> Is it ok like that or should i change it?
[08:23:39] <grandixximo> i don't find how tough
[08:24:04] <IchGuckLive> grandixximo: it will be changed soon
[08:24:51] <grandixximo> Ok thank you
[08:25:21] <grandixximo> Is it fixable you think?
[08:25:37] <grandixximo> can it be fixed?
[08:25:53] <grandixximo> the bug i mean
[08:25:59] <IchGuckLive> on linuxcnc everything can be fixed O.O
[08:26:16] <grandixximo> well some things don't get fixed
[08:26:22] <grandixximo> or implemented
[08:26:56] <IchGuckLive> let me quick get over your peroblem
[08:28:42] <IchGuckLive> grandixximo: are you on 2.5.2
[08:28:49] <grandixximo> yes
[08:29:31] <grandixximo> latest stable from the buildbot
[08:29:39] <IchGuckLive> i see
[08:29:58] <IchGuckLive> yes this need to be fixesd out in the upcomming
[08:30:15] <grandixximo> in 2.6 you mean?
[08:30:22] <IchGuckLive> run from line is not getting yout tool loaded as expected
[08:30:36] <IchGuckLive> no its within the next week i guess
[08:31:15] <grandixximo> fantastic then, i'll check the bug report.
[08:31:32] <IchGuckLive> andy got it so i thin kit is discussed at devels today
[08:32:10] <grandixximo> Good job guys, always fantastic work :)
[08:33:30] <IchGuckLive> but to get over tis at al why arent you using G41/42
[08:33:55] <IchGuckLive> or a fixed tool lib
[08:34:02] <IchGuckLive> are you on a 5-axis
[08:37:39] <IchGuckLive> grandixximo: you know the different between L10 and L1
[08:37:46] <grandixximo> no
[08:37:54] <grandixximo> i try with both
[08:37:55] <IchGuckLive> that is bad
[08:37:57] <grandixximo> and is the same
[08:38:08] <grandixximo> i read in the documentation but i don't understand
[08:38:21] <grandixximo> i'm on 3 axis btw
[08:39:36] <IchGuckLive> you got G43 in your g-code
[08:40:11] <IchGuckLive> with the H number
[08:41:00] <grandixximo> G43???
[08:41:11] <grandixximo> in what g code?
[08:41:13] <IchGuckLive> to get the ofset to the tool
[08:41:22] <IchGuckLive> otherwise it is not regonised
[08:42:22] <grandixximo> you mean i must use G43?
[08:42:31] <IchGuckLive> ofcause
[08:42:54] <IchGuckLive> with the Tool length number you set usely the H is the same as the tool
[08:44:03] <IchGuckLive> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/devel/html/gcode/gcode.html#sec:G43
[08:44:48] <grandixximo> G43 loads axis offset of the tools
[08:45:13] <IchGuckLive> yes i woudt always go for a G43 Hx
[08:45:26] <IchGuckLive> as it is the savest on the G10 Lxx
[08:45:53] <grandixximo> G43 cannot change tool diameter
[08:46:03] <grandixximo> I need to change tool diameter
[08:46:33] <grandixximo> i don't care about offsets
[08:46:39] <IchGuckLive> this is bad programming use Zero path and ofset by tooltable G41 G42
[08:46:47] <IchGuckLive> that is cald CRC
[08:47:57] <grandixximo> i don't know CRC
[08:48:11] <archivist> grandixximo, this is the grinding machine?
[08:48:24] <grandixximo> polishing
[08:48:34] <grandixximo> stone polishing
[08:48:36] <IchGuckLive> oh ni mill ?
[08:48:50] <IchGuckLive> no
[08:48:54] <archivist> IchGuckLive, no so do not make assumptions
[08:49:07] <IchGuckLive> then im off
[08:49:12] <IchGuckLive> sorry
[08:49:19] <grandixximo> i was a bit confused
[08:49:21] <archivist> his wheel wears during the operation
[08:49:39] <IchGuckLive> B)
[08:50:34] <grandixximo> yes i made an example to show you the bug, but the actual job i'm doing is a much more complex g-code where i can control the wear of tools and compensate accordingly
[08:50:53] <archivist> grandixximo, I wonder if you need a comp like the THC
[08:51:12] <grandixximo> you mean the torch/
[08:51:14] <IchGuckLive> if grindet lots of wheels(D450) to dust during worktine
[08:51:15] <grandixximo> ?
[08:52:40] <grandixximo> No dust i use water for lubricant
[08:52:56] <grandixximo> We have mud
[08:53:09] <IchGuckLive> http://www.gail-werkzeugmaschinen.de/grafik/email/10244.jpg
[08:53:45] <IchGuckLive> ok im off by
[08:55:02] <grandixximo> Bye
[08:55:55] <grandixximo> http://stonecoldcnc.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/cnc-machine-oceania-00.jpg
[08:56:03] <grandixximo> this is the machine kinda
[08:56:48] <grandixximo> you can see how many wheels there are and even more than one for each cone
[09:00:49] <grandixximo> all the colored wheels are made in abrasive material, and as they work they wear, to maintain constant quality you must adjust the diameter of your tools
[09:06:25] <grandixximo> it works well on Linuxcnc, i wish there was a simple way to have a live compensation for the tool wear
[09:43:05] <mrsun> hmm how to rejuvinate paste flux for silver soldering? :/
[09:44:28] <mrsun> just water?
[09:47:55] <PetefromTn> Morning all...
[09:57:05] <pcw_home> PetefromTn: Noticed you had a sserial error. This is bad and with 7I77 usually indicates a ground loop (HF noise from drives returning down 7I77 DB25 cable)
[09:58:30] <PetefromTn> REALLY?? what can I do about it. Seemed like it only did it upon decelleration....crap.
[09:59:01] <pcw_home> If you have not seen this before I would suspect noise from the spindle drive
[10:00:15] <pcw_home> on thing is to make sure you are not returning the field I/O GND to 7I77 logic/Analog/5V gnd
[10:00:36] <Tom_itx> mrsun, i use iso alcohol
[10:00:45] <Tom_itx> just a couple drops though
[10:10:53] <pcw_home> Other options are:
[10:10:55] <pcw_home> 1. Common mode choke on analog (large ferrite bead around analog out and GND going to VFD)
[10:10:57] <pcw_home> 2. Series resistors (say 100 Ohm) on both analog out and GND going to VFD
[10:10:58] <pcw_home> 3. Common mode choke on motor leads
[10:11:00] <pcw_home> 4. Line filter on VFD power
[10:13:48] <PetefromTn> Okay I will play with it some more today, Connor is going to come over again apparently and help me. Great guy, you too...
[10:16:47] <dave_e> hi all I working on a config that is one linear and one angular axis. the linear will move but not the angular ... ideas
[10:17:15] <PetefromTn> Can you elaborate more on the returning the field I/O ground to 7i77 logic?
[10:17:40] <dave_e> version 2.5.1 sim
[10:19:34] <dave_e> following error set at 10000
[10:19:56] <dave_e> attempt to move A axis get an immediate following error
[10:20:07] <pcw_home> Field I/O has a separate GND (the negative pin of your 24V supply)
[10:20:09] <pcw_home> this should not connect to the 7I77 encoder or analog GND
[10:20:15] <mrsun> Tom_itx, well this paste is realy dry :P
[10:20:20] <mrsun> i added water and it came back to life :P
[10:26:18] <PetefromTn> Okay I will check my setup here...Thanks so much Pete
[10:26:24] <mrsun> http://sphotos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/558577_10151535247593648_484331622_n.jpg feet for my new milling machine! =)
[10:26:27] <mrsun> yeah! =)
[10:50:14] <dave_e> hi kirk how are things going?
[10:55:14] <andypugh> PetefromTn: A line filter on the VFD it is a really good idea. That saved me a lot of noise, and if you look at the installation fiagrams they neatly always show one.
[10:56:29] <PetefromTn> Thanks Andy... I will look into one.
[10:58:37] <asdfasd> on my router the VFD is very small, and I installed it on X axis, with very short cable to the spindle, also CY cable is recomended
[10:58:55] <asdfasd> if that is the problem...
[12:09:10] <PetefromTn> Hello again...
[12:15:11] <PetefromTn> pcw_home: Are you still there Pete? I hope you are out on this nice Saturday but just in case I have a question about the 7i77 noise issue...
[12:19:54] <IchGuckLive> hi all from the sunny germany B)
[12:21:56] <pcw_home> Yeah I'll be here for a while off-and-on
[12:33:50] <PetefromTn> PCW.... Okay man we have basically wired the 7i77 analog output into the drive and we have it setup with the analog out going to AIN in on the VFD and we have the ground going from the 7i77 to the AIN- on the drive with the shielding also grounded at the 7i77 side. Then we just have the two outputs going from field I/O to the fwd and rev inputs on the vfd and no ground wire because was not sure where to pput it...
[12:37:06] <pcw_home> the 24V common should do the the VFD digital input commom
[12:37:38] <PetefromTn> Okay that is what Connor thought too...
[12:39:10] <pcw_home> s/ do to/go to/
[12:52:32] <PetefromTn> okay man gonna try it now...
[12:55:22] <dave_e> sunny here also but trying to blow us off the hill. E. Washington.
[12:56:10] <IchGuckLive> washington state
[12:56:43] <dave_e> yep, major crops are hops and wine grapes
[13:00:56] <IchGuckLive> eine is also here in germany B)
[13:01:03] <IchGuckLive> w
[13:07:06] <dave_e> you are much wetter than we are. we are classed as high desert with just over 8 inches a year.
[13:07:29] <dave_e> snow runoff from the Cascades saves us.
[13:08:15] <IchGuckLive> we had full rain servise this week
[13:10:06] <dave_e> oh so did we ... maybe .25 cm. ;-)
[13:10:52] <IchGuckLive> i got 11.000 liters this wek in the reserva
[13:11:25] <IchGuckLive> need to go have a nice saturday where ever you are BBQ ready
[13:12:06] <dave_e> with 300 da/yr of sunshine most days are predictable.
[13:27:08] <dave_e> exit
[13:30:14] <PetefromTn_> hello...
[13:33:33] <L84Supper> I need to add an encoder strip to a conveyor belt, I haven't seen anything off the shelf that will handle the flexing, so it looks like laser etch or inkjet to print one directly to the belt
[13:33:38] <L84Supper> any other ideas?
[13:34:54] <pcw_home> what resolution?
[13:35:40] <L84Supper> 100-400 dpi
[13:37:17] <L84Supper> nobody can make a conveyor with low enough side to side Y tolerance. They can get down to 125um, but I need to measure the Y movement to produce an offset
[13:38:07] <pcw_home> would it be attached directly to the conveyor?
[13:38:11] <L84Supper> I might just use a rotary encoder to measure X position of the belt and print a line down the side to track Y movement with a camera to generate an offset for the machine
[13:39:21] <pcw_home> a rotary encoder is liable to be more reliable if there is dirt around
[13:39:25] <L84Supper> I need to measure the Y axis jitter of the belt and offset the printhead to match the Y jitter/movement
[13:40:16] <L84Supper> yeah, it's clean and I could wipe the strip but I really need to measure the Y movement of the belt
[13:40:26] <pcw_home> if the jitter is not fast, a vision system a fiducial marks on the belt might work
[13:41:07] <pcw_home> s/a fiducial/and fiducial/
[13:41:26] <L84Supper> yeah, just a line and camera, profile a full rotation, look for changes
[13:42:18] <pcw_home> but thats a fairly low bandwidth solution without high frame rates
[13:42:27] <L84Supper> nobody knows how fast the jitter might be, it's the same belt, over time it should probably settle as long as the conveyor isn't modified
[13:42:54] <L84Supper> it's only moving at ~1 foot/sec
[13:43:38] <L84Supper> line scanner can easily keep up
[13:45:20] <L84Supper> it would be nice if they could just mold in a steel filament to track with a mag head
[13:46:08] <L84Supper> X accuracy of the conveyors are really good
[13:46:24] <pcw_home> If its just scanning you dont even need quarature
[13:46:32] <pcw_home> quadrature
[13:46:54] <L84Supper> nobody has been concerned with the Y, one company that makes stainless conveyors never even measured the Y jitter/movement
[13:48:30] <pcw_home> Is there a y encoder already?
[13:49:07] <L84Supper> nope, have to decide on what works best
[13:51:19] <pcw_home> Reminds me of old Versatec printers, they printed fiducials on the first color pass and realigned ever subsequent pass
[13:53:42] <L84Supper> yeah, this system has printed fiducials from the previous printer but this is the next station with a different belt
[13:54:33] <pcw_home> the other issue is if you measure jitter, where do you measure it? at drive rotary at other end, both. in the middle etc
[13:54:34] <L84Supper> we already scan the fiducials but if there is Y drift after the camera and before the printheads the print will end up in the wrong place
[13:55:49] <L84Supper> it's actually the amount of Y jitter of the belt between the camera that scans the fiducials and the printheads
[13:56:54] <L84Supper> using a linear motor and nice bearing vs belt solves this problem as well
[14:00:19] <pcw_home> Yes (but in one respect only because a linear motor will always include a nice linear encoder)
[14:03:25] <L84Supper> and the bearing will have less wobble than the belt
[14:05:26] <L84Supper> think of the Versatec having to realign itself after the paper is removed, or print 100 pages, reshuffle and pass them through for more layers of print
[14:06:53] <L84Supper> or using two Versatecs where the first one has lots of lash in the print carriage, the second one has to try to match the sloppiness of the first printer
[14:09:12] <pcw_home> does the conveyor belt need to go all the way around?
[14:15:18] <L84Supper> if it doesn't then we'd use a linear actuator
[14:15:56] <L84Supper> there are constraints on floor space length, it's part of a work cell
[14:16:32] <L84Supper> it's one cell getting prints from another
[14:16:35] <pcw_home> I was just wondering how you splice a linear encoder strip...
[14:17:49] <L84Supper> I haven't seen anyone make a flexible enough one, the polyester type used in inkjets isn't durable enough
[14:17:51] <Tom_itx> is that a good idea?
[14:18:10] <pcw_home> I guess what I would first is see if a rotary encoder in the drive is good enough
[14:18:37] <Tom_itx> maybe cut a diagonal like splicing reel to reel tape?
[14:18:49] <L84Supper> so it looks like rotary encoder on the belt and just a printed/laser etched line near one side tracked by a scanner
[14:19:17] <pcw_home> or periodic lines
[14:19:28] <L84Supper> two scanners, one at the cameras and one right before the printheads
[14:19:49] <L84Supper> to detect and skew and generate an offset at the heads
[14:19:55] <L84Supper> and/any
[14:21:13] <pcw_home> Tom_itx yes but the spacing needs to be correct so you dont have a glitch at the junction
[14:22:40] <L84Supper> or measure the glitch at the junction, since it's repeatable
[14:23:14] <L84Supper> the belt moves at a constant velocity, so it makes that easy
[14:23:44] <pcw_home> if it counts right...
[14:24:29] <L84Supper> we can easily inkjet reflective dots every 250um down the belt
[14:24:35] <pcw_home> is it friction drive of a toothed belt
[14:24:42] <pcw_home> or a
[14:28:46] <andypugh> Darn it! Spent all day winding this motor, eventually got it with no shorted windings, it ran _great_ for a little while, then one of the wires broke.
[14:29:19] <L84Supper> 1% inspiration, 99% perspiration
[14:29:20] <andypugh> I can't decide if it broke due to earlier abuse, or actually over-loaded.
[14:33:34] <Jymmm> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=I03UmJbK0lA#!
[14:36:40] <Jymmm> andypugh: PM
[14:38:08] <JT-Shop> andypugh: were you able to help Kent?
[14:40:46] <archivist> andypugh, is there enough protection of the wire during assembly, are the windings restrained insitu as the magnetism can vibrated the wire to failure
[14:45:23] <pcw_home> I suspect overloaded. If you had 26 Gauge (~250 circular mills) thats only good for
[14:45:25] <pcw_home> maybe 1A cont and say 4A peak, 30 gauge is only good for say 350 ma cont and say 1.5A peak
[14:45:27] <pcw_home> (using 250 CM/A rule of thumb)
[14:46:09] <pcw_home> though I would expect smoke if overloaded long enough
[14:47:43] <pcw_home> Not sure how much current it take to melt 30 gauge copper somewhere around 10A though
[14:49:21] <PetefromTn_> pcw_home: Hey man that grounding situation seems to have done the trick thanks.....peace
[14:49:22] <PetefromTn_> Pete
[14:52:28] <pcw_home> welcome, but keep tabs on it. if you ever see sserial errors or encoder errors,
[14:52:30] <pcw_home> this indicates a noise problem that needs to be investigated/corrected
[14:59:15] <L84Supper> pcw_home: friction belt, the cogged type actually introduce vibration into the belt
[15:00:07] <pcw_home> Yeah I would expect that
[15:00:50] <pcw_home> do you print at constant speed (raster)?
[15:01:31] <L84Supper> pcw_home: yes, constant velocity 1ft/sec
[15:02:23] <L84Supper> pcw_home:using a belt, if we use a linear motor then speed is only constant when under the printheads
[15:03:36] <PetefromTn_> Pete occasionally we get encoder errors immediately upon startup or shutdown what could cause that? Everything still works fine but it is annoying.
[15:03:42] <pcw_home> so a accurate but low resolution linear scale on the belt should do fine
[15:05:16] <L84Supper> pcw_home: yeah, i was just looking for input on other ways to add a scale to a conveyor belt
[15:07:14] <L84Supper> pcw_home: there usually no time for trial end error with these systems, you have to pick whats best up front and then build it, you might only have 1-2 weeks to fix a poor choice before delivery
[15:07:20] <pcw_home> PetefromTn: still sounds like electrical noise, what happens electrically at startup and shutdown ?
[15:15:27] <skunkworks> noise is always a pain...
[15:31:07] <Jymmm> Especially gangster rap
[15:45:39] <PetefromTn_> not sure what you mean....we have now gotten some of the I/0 hooked up to the mesa so we can test the toolchanger stuff here...trying to get the power drawbar to cycle...peace
[15:48:24] <PetefromTn_> Nothing really since we have the contactor setup seperately. The VFD comes on upon main disconnect as well as the coolant VFD.
[15:48:50] <PetefromTn_> We mostly get it with shutdown it seems...
[15:49:17] <andypugh> DC resistance is no 5.7A, and duty-cycle is set to max of 0.9, so a stalled motor could be drawing 3.8A. I doubt that it had time to melt the wire, and there was no sign of anything getting hot. There is a thermal fuse in there now. (well, a soldered joint, actually)
[15:50:09] <andypugh> I can see I might have to start this thing all over again using what I have learned, but I can't say I facny that, it's been well over a year I have been at it, on and off.
[15:50:51] <skunkworks> does it run better with higher inductance?
[15:55:42] <andypugh> Much better.
[15:55:51] <skunkworks> nea
[15:55:53] <skunkworks> neat
[15:56:04] <pcw_home> PetefromTn: something must happen at shutdown that generates a noise spike
[15:56:09] <Jymmm> andypugh: what exactly have you been doing? Designing a new motor?
[15:56:11] <andypugh> I really like these, I might have to make some: http://www.firebox.com/product/5869/Pallet-Coasters
[15:56:36] <andypugh> Jymmm: Yes, I needed an unusually shaped motor to embed in something.
[15:56:55] <skunkworks> what we don't know... :)
[15:57:05] <Jymmm> andypugh: and a gearbox/right angled won't do?
[15:57:08] <pcw_home> andypugh: any chance of finding where the wire is broken?
[15:57:11] <andypugh> No.
[15:57:14] <PetefromTn_> Okay we will investigate... Honestly everything seems to be working quite well so far tho... Your card is amazing.
[15:57:33] <andypugh> I have fixed the wire now. If the solder goes, then I know what the problem is.
[15:57:34] <Jymmm> andypugh: popsicle sticks
[15:57:53] <skunkworks> PetefromTn_: make sure you take care how you are grounding everything.
[15:58:11] <andypugh> pcw_home: It had broken rather randomly half way between the first pole and the terminal block.
[15:58:19] <PetefromTn_> OH we are man....we just added another ground buss with HUGE leads from the main input area...
[15:58:52] <skunkworks> shields should only be grounded on one end... (also)
[15:59:12] <PetefromTn_> this will allow us to hookup the eight different solid state relays that control the 110v solenoids that operate the toolchanger pneumatics.... As well as anything else in the area that needs a solid ground
[15:59:25] <pcw_home> Maybe the wire got nicked (doesn't take much to nick 30 gauge)
[16:00:27] <Jymmm> pcw_home: (40ga NiChrome is INCREDIBLY resilient)
[16:01:19] <pcw_home> well NiChrome is a lot tougher than copper
[16:01:37] <pcw_home> but not the best for use as magnet wire
[16:01:49] <mrsun> silversoldering was kinda cool =)
[16:01:49] <Jymmm> Awwwwwwww
[16:02:05] <mrsun> just to see how it just sucks throught the joint ... blam =)
[16:02:07] <mrsun> fused
[16:02:30] <Jymmm> pcw_home: Still, 40ga was a LOT stronger than I ever expected
[16:03:09] <pcw_home> Try some Tungsten its even more impressive
[16:03:34] <andypugh> pcw_home: Yes, and that particular run got pulled out from under the other ones earlier as it was shorted to the stator. So it had been rather abused.
[16:03:43] <pcw_home> (I have some .001 tTungsten)
[16:03:52] <Jymmm> pcw_home: Heh, best I have is NiChrome. Would like to play with Titanium though
[16:04:00] <andypugh> I see why they epoxy-dip the stators.
[16:04:12] <Jymmm> andypugh: vibration?
[16:04:19] <andypugh> Piano wire is about as strong as anything gets..
[16:04:20] <pcw_home> Yes and vacuum impregnate
[16:04:50] <Jymmm> andypugh: at 40ga?
[16:05:15] <andypugh> The further you draw it down, the stronger it gets. (per unit area, of course).
[16:05:32] <Jymmm> Ah
[16:06:16] <pcw_home> Tungsten is wierd though, its more like tough bamboo than metal when you break it
[16:06:21] <Jymmm> andypugh: I think I'll try the coasters too, I have some popsicle sticks around here somewhere
[16:06:27] <jdh> a guy I know rewound one of his underwater scooters with square wire, said he could get more power.
[16:06:48] <Jymmm> jdh: more surface area
[16:07:14] <PetefromTn_> Ooh I want an undewater scooter....
[16:07:30] <Jymmm> andypugh: There ya go....use triangle wire!!!!
[16:07:39] <andypugh> 40 AWG = 0.12mm, and in 4GPa carbon steel would have a breaking load of 10lbs.
[16:08:15] <andypugh> square wire packs tighter on the stator, so does offer advantages.
[16:08:54] <Jymmm> /\ \/ /\ \/ /\ \/
[16:08:56] <andypugh> Triangular wire would be easier to handle, but would hurt your fingers.
[16:09:08] <Jymmm> andypugh: gloves
[16:09:17] <andypugh> It's a fiddly job.
[16:09:22] <Jymmm> ah
[16:09:32] <pcw_home> It is and heavy wire is worse
[16:09:52] <Jymmm> Ok, I'm off on a quest to find Grandma Maud's Red Beans and Rice!!!
[16:09:58] <andypugh> Right, I am going to bolt this motor back together, check that it runs, and put it to bed. I want to have it funcitonal.
[16:10:54] <Jymmm> Exceptionally good even if it is "just add water"
[16:37:27] <DJ9DJ> gn8
[17:14:51] <L84Supper> andypugh: have access to a TDR unit to measure the distance to the break in the wire?
[17:16:25] <L84Supper> http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/etep.1683/abstract Localization of mechanical deformations in transformer windings using time-domain representation of response functions
[17:17:11] <WalterN> L84Supper: how much do 30watt SLS rapid prototyping machines run anyway?
[17:18:09] <L84Supper> heh, http://www.additive3d.com/com3_lks.htm
[17:18:47] <WalterN> I've looked... I cant find prices
[17:19:08] <L84Supper> lots
[17:19:34] <WalterN> $80,000?
[17:19:38] <WalterN> more?
[17:21:48] <t12> dang an electron beam sinterer
[17:23:31] <L84Supper> the prices have nothing in common with what the parts actually cost to make one
[17:23:57] <WalterN> well yeah
[17:24:23] <WalterN> most have their own software systems they made themselves
[17:24:39] <L84Supper> all do, it's a big proprietary mess
[17:24:52] <WalterN> and bloody expensive because of that
[17:25:08] <WalterN> but I was kinda looking for a reference price :P
[17:25:12] <L84Supper> they all treat their tech like god delivered it to them only
[17:25:22] <WalterN> $60k? $100k?
[17:25:31] <L84Supper> same as industrial inkjet
[17:25:46] <PetefromTn_> Working on the solid state relays for the power drawbar and the toolchanger controls now...GETTING EXCITING!!
[17:25:51] <L84Supper> $250K
[17:25:59] <L84Supper> some $150K
[17:26:08] <WalterN> ok
[17:26:20] <WalterN> so more then a typical lathe or mill?
[17:26:48] <L84Supper> oh, yeah, "we have patents"
[17:27:00] <WalterN> alright
[17:27:16] <t12> the answer of course is
[17:27:25] <t12> feel free to try and build your own
[17:27:35] <WalterN> thats what I'm doing
[17:27:35] <L84Supper> even the big Chinese SLS printers sell for $1M
[17:28:31] <WalterN> I estimate that after all the parts and stuff to make my own, it will be about $3,000... heh
[17:28:44] <t12> heh
[17:28:52] <t12> does that include the metrology tools
[17:28:55] <t12> to tune it in
[17:28:58] <WalterN> give or take maybe $400 or so
[17:29:26] <L84Supper> I have wax+polymer cartridges with <1L here for 3D systems printers that sell for $500-800ea
[17:29:45] <L84Supper> ~$20 in raw materials inside
[17:30:22] <WalterN> t12: what do you mean?
[17:31:07] <t12> i mean i think youll be way more than 3k into a sls
[17:31:18] <t12> by the time it works
[17:31:23] <WalterN> no, I dont think so
[17:31:46] <WalterN> laser system is about $1,300
[17:32:12] <WalterN> after everything... optics included
[17:33:00] <WalterN> it does kinda depend on the kind of volume I want to work with though
[17:33:01] <L84Supper> WalterN: http://www.slideshare.net/yellow5india/6-ideas-to-buying-a-3d-printer-for-your-workplace
[17:34:35] <L84Supper> https://www.me.utexas.edu/news/2012/0712_sls_history.php
[17:35:22] <L84Supper> history in a nutshell ^^
[17:35:27] <WalterN> yeah
[17:35:37] <WalterN> kinda starts with the birth of lasers :P
[17:36:47] <WalterN> I wonder if there is a good way to SLS multi-colors
[17:36:58] <L84Supper> http://www.blueprinter.dk/ $13,186.00
[17:37:05] <L84Supper> might be the lowest cost
[17:37:23] <L84Supper> yeah, but I'm not sharing yet :)
[17:37:41] <L84Supper> have to pay the bills :)
[17:39:13] <WalterN> that thing is tiny
[17:40:06] <WalterN> thats like 6.5"x8"x6" roughly
[17:40:28] <WalterN> probably has a dinky laser
[17:41:10] <L84Supper> they are all about using the cheapest parts to maximize profits
[17:41:41] <WalterN> L84Supper: should I build mine with steppers or servos?
[17:42:03] <L84Supper> depends on what you are doing
[17:42:11] <WalterN> all the things
[17:42:19] <L84Supper> same tradeoffs as with cnc
[17:42:25] <WalterN> well
[17:42:42] <WalterN> its not physically moving material off the working space
[17:45:05] <L84Supper> http://rapidproductdevelopment.biz/2011/11/28/3d-printers-for-shopaholics-and-santas-helpers/
[17:49:13] <WalterN> EOS... I think thats what I looked up a long time ago
[17:50:06] <WalterN> the one I was drooling over was $750,000 heh
[17:50:42] <WalterN> but anyways
[17:50:52] <WalterN> L84Supper: would you make one with steppers or servos?
[17:51:55] <L84Supper> low cost consumer version = steppers, pro version for 24/7 industrial use probably servo
[17:52:18] <WalterN> oh, do servos last longer in general?
[17:52:32] <L84Supper> also depends on if missing any steps will be a problem
[17:52:48] <L84Supper> it's more open vs closed loop
[17:53:45] <L84Supper> if you lose steps do you end up with a ruined part? does the printer home itself every layer? does servo give you higher print rates
[17:54:08] <WalterN> that can be avoided with an encoder
[17:55:18] <WalterN> but then, if encoders are on there, probably might as well use servos anyway
[17:55:51] <L84Supper> cheap galvos are open loop but driven like a speaker
[17:56:04] <WalterN> galvos?
[17:56:38] <L84Supper> http://www.laser2000.co.uk/laser_accessories.php?Category=49 for example
[17:57:10] <L84Supper> http://www.edmundoptics.com/electro-optics/electro-optics-accessories/dual-axis-galvanometer-based-optical-scanner/2717
[17:57:53] <L84Supper> http://www.thorlabs.com/newgrouppage9.cfm?objectgroup_id=3770
[17:58:29] <WalterN> oh those things
[17:59:42] <WalterN> I was going to set it up like a standard CNC mill
[18:00:03] <WalterN> (no galvos
[18:00:03] <L84Supper> thats the slowest way to do it
[18:00:04] <WalterN> )
[18:01:23] <WalterN> well, I dont know how to do it any other way without issues with beam focusing
[18:01:25] <L84Supper> http://www.instructables.com/id/Arduino-Laser-Show-with-Full-XY-Control/
[18:02:40] <L84Supper> http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/LASER-LIGHT-SHOW-GALVO-laser-40k-scanner-kits/907279_508093280.html
[18:03:05] <L84Supper> http://www.ebay.com/itm/30Kpps-Galvo-scanner-system-laser-show-card-Max50k-/251210965701?pt=US_Stage_Lighting_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3a7d5722c5
[18:03:45] <L84Supper> have fun and don't burn your eyes out!
[18:05:33] <WalterN> L84Supper: http://search.newport.com/?q=*&x2=sku&q2=CAPX16
[18:07:26] <zenek> nick micges
[18:07:32] <WalterN> how do you get that to work with a galvo?
[18:08:16] <L84Supper> WalterN: there tons of literature available on building systems
[18:08:19] <WalterN> would have to move it around
[18:08:34] <WalterN> very rapidly...
[18:08:38] <WalterN> hmm
[18:09:15] <L84Supper> a collimated beam needs no focusing unless you want to reduce the spot size
[18:09:55] <WalterN> oh well... yeah.. but need to get the beam in that state to begin with
[18:10:22] <L84Supper> then you typically expand the beam and then focus and reduce to the spot size desired
[18:11:18] <andypugh> Well, the widget is now working, so I spent an hour on the next thing (a mount for my probe)
[18:11:42] <L84Supper> http://search.newport.com/i/1/x1/pageType/q1/Products/q2/Optics/q3/Beam%20Expanders%20%2526%20Objectives/q4/Laser%20Beam%20Expanders/x2/section/x3/chapter/x4/family/nav/1/
[18:12:22] <L84Supper> http://www.edmundoptics.com/learning-and-support/technical/learning-center/application-notes/lasers/beam-expanders/
[18:13:49] <L84Supper> http://www.edmundoptics.com/learning-and-support/technical/learning-center/videos/?ytID=pjVb37f4GK4&playlistID=DEA14401C2BE6275&ref=right-column
[18:14:00] <L84Supper> http://www.edmundoptics.com/learning-and-support/technical/learning-center/eo-tech-tools/index.cfm?techToolID=7/&ref=right-column
[18:15:26] <WalterN> that newport place has a local office here
[18:15:37] <WalterN> I should swing by and talk to them about it
[18:29:45] <Skullworks> yup - if you don't use a beam expander properly you will burn through your mirrors.
[18:35:20] <AR_> lies
[18:39:10] <L84Supper> or your eyes
[18:54:41] <r00t4rd3d> http://i.imgur.com/wKo2XYg.jpg
[18:56:13] <AR_> amish riding lawn mower
[19:09:46] <just> Hi, I'm several seconds new to IRC. I'm struggling to use kellycam currently on my homemade machine, and I am getting no where. I am ready to try linuxcnc, and I know I must install linux first but I am clueless how to do that. This must have been covered a billion times, where do I look to start the linux install process ???
[19:11:20] <andypugh> just: http://linuxcnc.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=21&Itemid=4&lang=en
[19:11:25] <AR_> i am sure it is on the linuxcnc home page
[19:11:33] <AR_> just, here is a quick overview:
[19:11:45] <just> thanks, I'll pop over and look...
[19:11:46] <AR_> 1) Download linuxcnc image
[19:12:03] <AR_> 2) burn to disk using an image burning software (windows can do this)
[19:12:12] <AR_> 3) insert disk into computer
[19:12:15] <AR_> 4) boot from disk
[19:12:35] <AR_> 5) follow instructions to either run disk as liveCD to preview it or install it
[19:13:20] <AR_> 6) set up EMC configuration and make chips
[19:15:46] <just> what size hard drive will I need, I have some old 2GB needing use. Can this all be installed and live on a flash drive, or would i expect latency problems?
[19:16:51] <AR_> you should install on a hard disk
[19:17:09] <AR_> 2gb might just be enough to start
[19:17:30] <andypugh> a 4GB ssd works, I think 2GB would be too small.
[19:17:53] <andypugh> But then the LiveCD is less than 2GB, by definition.
[19:20:25] <just> drives are cheap and I've spent plenty on this machine. No need to cheap-out now, I'll find something bigger, but now I know it would barely fit, so I now have a guide line. Thanks. Be back later...
[19:21:11] <andypugh> just: You can try out Linux and LinuxCNC just from the LiveCD without making any changes to the PC at all.
[19:22:12] <just> will the above link discuss that as well??
[19:22:36] <andypugh> Yes
[19:22:56] <just> thank you.
[19:31:18] <fomox> anyone here that are pro at configuring medium sized networks (90-150 clients)? :P
[20:30:04] <PetefromTn> Good evening fellas...
[20:30:44] <andypugh> Is your re-appearnce good or or bad?
[20:34:13] <FinboySlick> fomox: I have 3800 clients ;)
[20:34:32] <FinboySlick> fomox: What are you looking for?
[20:34:37] <Connor> PetefromTn: Home safe and sound.
[20:35:04] <PetefromTn> Hey connor!! Andy are you talking to me?
[20:35:45] <fomox> FinboySlick: ah nice :D
[20:35:47] <fomox> mind if I send you a pm?
[20:35:56] <FinboySlick> Sure.
[20:37:01] <Connor> PetefromTn: The Tool change motor.. If it's a AC motor... I think it's going only spin one way..
[20:37:37] <Connor> So, it might be a 24v motor...
[20:37:54] <PetefromTn> Why would it not spin both ways? It certainly did before...
[20:38:35] <Connor> AC motors (Single Phase) tend to only spin in one direction...
[20:39:19] <Connor> So, If it spins in both.. it might be DC.. or has some sort of direction gear change mechanism.
[20:46:41] <PetefromTn> Doubt it but we will see. I will take the cover off it tomorrow and investigate it. I am so amazed that we are actually onto toolchanger goodies now. We have really been kicking ass....
[20:47:31] <andypugh> If it is a 3-phase motor it will happily spin either way.
[20:48:18] <andypugh> Given that it is a 3-phase machine, it would be very unlikel that a single-phase motor would be fitted.
[20:48:23] <Connor> Need to figure out the sserial error..
[20:48:32] <Connor> I hope it's not the length of the Db25 cable..
[20:48:54] <Jymmm> how long is it?
[20:49:13] <Connor> PetefromTn: How long is it? 10' ?
[20:50:38] <Connor> It's happening with the spindle start/stop mostly.
[20:52:39] <PetefromTn> Yup 10'
[20:52:51] <Connor> pcw_home: on thing is to make sure you are not returning the field I/O GND to 7I77 logic/Analog/5V gnd
[20:53:00] <Connor> I have questions about that..
[20:53:45] <Connor> I think ALL the GND's are tied together..
[21:00:34] <PetefromTn> Yeah so far there is only one ground point for everything. Always thought that was the way to go...
[21:01:48] <Connor> Yea. I'm not sure. We need to talk to pcw_home a little more about that..
[21:03:14] <PetefromTn> Sure doo.
[21:04:06] <Connor> And of course, the encoder errors when we start linuxcnc up.
[21:06:07] <PetefromTn> Im sure they are all related to a grounding issue. Everything is working really well otherwise. I am so pleased with our progress so far. The machine is doing what it did when it actually worked under the original control with the obvious exception of what we have not gotten to yet. Really cool...
[21:08:38] <andypugh> In an ideal world logic ground and power ground would be different. But it is generally the case that at least one device in the system makes that impossible.
[21:09:53] <Connor> I think the VFD has the analog gnd tied to the logic gnd.
[21:10:00] <Connor> for CW/CCW
[21:11:12] <pcw_home> Both of these errors indicate that either enough HF ground current is
[21:11:14] <pcw_home> flowing down the DB5 cable to generate a 1V or so drop along its length
[21:11:16] <pcw_home> Or perhaps there is power routed along the same path as the DB25 cable
[21:11:40] <pcw_home> (both meaning encoder error and sserial error)
[21:11:54] <pcw_home> DB25
[21:12:09] <Connor> We do have a 110v line running down the same channel as the DB25..
[21:12:12] <andypugh> Are there any problems with the spindle and coolant VFDs unpowered?
[21:12:24] <Connor> not with the sserial error.
[21:12:44] <Connor> we do see the encoder errors though.
[21:12:50] <pcw_home> they are the same basically
[21:12:51] <andypugh> Is the power wire shielded?
[21:13:04] <Connor> the 110v? no.
[21:13:19] <Connor> It's the power for the PC and monitor.
[21:13:56] <pcw_home> did you see any errors before you connected the spindle drive?
[21:13:58] <Connor> PetefromTn: You could try running the PC and monitor from that extension cord.. and see if you get errors I guess.
[21:14:08] <Connor> just the encoder errors
[21:14:21] <Connor> and that's always at start up.. or drive enable
[21:14:34] <andypugh> VFDs put nasty spikes in the power. So, I would suggest a filter for the VFDs (they may be able to share) and running the power in shielded cable. (I like the SY stuff: http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/MF1dot5slash3.html )
[21:14:38] <Connor> well.. not always.. but that's the ONLY time it happens
[21:14:57] <PetefromTn> yeah we had it that way for awhile today already...
[21:15:18] <Connor> PetefromTn: But, not with the machine itself running.. so no idea if it fixes the issue..
[21:15:39] <PetefromTn> I don't remember...
[21:15:43] <andypugh> Filters are pretty cheap: http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0&_nkw=rasmi&_sacat=0&_from=R40
[21:16:12] <Connor> Yea, I didn't have access to the mesa pins because the 24v supply was off..
[21:16:13] <PetefromTn> The power FROM the drive to the motor is the original cable and basically goes from the VFD right out to the motor pretty quick.
[21:16:37] <PetefromTn> The wires going to the drive are coming in from the disconnect and are not shielded....
[21:16:51] <andypugh> (Just realised that specifically searching for a UK manufacturer of filters on eBay US might not be the best idea)
[21:17:22] <PetefromTn> LOL....
[21:17:33] <PetefromTn> Connor: yeah you're right man
[21:18:31] <Connor> So, that's one thing to try.. If that fixes it.. then we need to shield the power cable.. or router it some other way.
[21:18:46] <Connor> route it.. not router it.. grumble..
[21:19:02] <PetefromTn> yup tomorrow...
[21:19:20] <Connor> Yup. Doctor Who time.
[21:19:37] <PetefromTn> I thought it was at 8?
[21:19:45] <pcw_home> I would try the alternate PC power source routing first
[21:19:48] <Connor> It was. but, I have it DVR'd
[21:20:26] <PetefromTn> Isn't the cable shielded between the boards?
[21:20:45] <pcw_home> Yes
[21:20:51] <Connor> But, may not be enough.
[21:21:14] <Connor> that's 6' of travel running parallel to the cable.
[21:21:45] <PetefromTn> Honestly I dunno about the noise issues, but what about that parameter you set initially that helped with the Atom board >>>
[21:21:52] <pcw_home> Shielding does not help if there is a ground loop and also doesn't help much with inductive coupling
[21:21:59] <Connor> you may even want to disconnect it from the outlet and pull the wire out.. because even having it there not in use could cause issues.
[21:22:37] <andypugh> I have only watched one of the new Dr Who series (and by "new" I mean the ones made in the last 10 years). Oddly if you asked me if I was a fan I would probably say I was.
[21:22:39] <Connor> Oh, that was the Servo thready Hz. and made sure all the power save crap was off.
[21:22:52] <PetefromTn> Dunno how there could be a ground loop basically everything is going to the same ground buss...
[21:23:02] <pcw_home> I think you will have to experiment to find the cause
[21:23:43] <PetefromTn> Maybe we should up that number a bit more?
[21:23:59] <Connor> No. 1 Million is the highest you want.
[21:24:20] <pcw_home> That wont help with these errors (only real time errors)
[21:24:38] <PetefromTn> Definitely willing to experiment here and also willing to buy the line filter because the VFD manual actually recommends that. Not sure where to put it or how but I will find a way...
[21:24:43] <Connor> Yea, were not getting RT errors anymore.
[21:24:59] <PetefromTn> Well we actuall did get some real time errors but only occasionally no?
[21:25:09] <andypugh> All my problems went away when I added the VFD filter. As a bad scientist, though, I also put a common-mode choke on the VFD outputs, and made the signal pins which had problems into current loops (by moving the pull-ups to the 7i43 end, rather than the switch end). So I can't say which one worked.
[21:25:22] <Connor> correct, but that's because I was doing other stuff like using a web browser.. or switching between windows etc.
[21:26:13] <andypugh> You should be able to do those things without RT over-runs. Are you running a base thread? (don't)
[21:26:14] <PetefromTn> Oh alright. The filter is a cheap option and could work really well to stifle noise. How did you install yours Andy?
[21:26:25] <Connor> andypugh: No.
[21:27:04] <andypugh> There is only one way to install them, they go next to the VFD, on the input power wires.
[21:27:28] <PetefromTn> Chokes on the outputs is also another easy option. With the size of this VFD and derating it who knows how much noise we are actually seeing.
[21:28:29] <PetefromTn> Okay I will order one but I need to figure out what the specs need to be for it. The WJ200 is spec'd for three phase so I guess basically double the numbers?
[21:30:17] <pcw_home> Also check if the low side analog inputs on the servo drives and VFD are grounded (its better if they are not and and have differential inputs)
[21:30:19] <pcw_home> if the low side analog inputs _are_ grounded a common mode choke or small value series resistors in th analog leads can also eliminate ground currents
[21:30:25] <andypugh> Possibly not. Maybe ask your supplier?
[21:31:17] <pcw_home> (only high frequency ground currents from drives/VFDs are troublesome)
[21:31:37] <andypugh> I like this style of V-block. (you can hold them in a vice) But it seems I am not the only one, hence the price.
[21:31:38] <andypugh> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Bilton-V-Block-Vee-block-with-clamp-and-mount-fixture-for-HRT-160-Haas-/121092829809
[21:31:56] <PetefromTn> The Analog inputs as with all the inputs are only grounded with the shielding on the Mesa side as per the manual...
[21:33:05] <andypugh> The new-price is just frightening: http://www.rotagriponline.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&product_id=3753&flypage=shop.flypage&pop=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=29
[21:36:14] <pcw_home> What I was asking is basically this: if you disconnect the analog cable from the drive,
[21:36:16] <pcw_home> is the lead that connects to the 7i77 GND still grounded
[21:36:18] <pcw_home> That is, does the drive ground the low side of its analog input?
[21:40:17] <PetefromTn> Not sure really.... Basically if you look at the wj200 manual we have two wires from the shielded cable going to the VFD. One is the Analog input from the axis 5 enable block and it goes in on pin O of the drive. The other is the ground and shield which are both connected to the GND of the axis 5 enable and only the ground goes into the VFD on pin L...
[21:43:20] <PetefromTn> The OUTPUTS that control the FWD and REV lines go from Field I/O of the mesa to inputs 1 and 2 and we have jumpered the L and PLC together on the VFD and we took the L to the ground point that the Field IO is taken to on the mesa...
[21:52:58] <pcw_home> With an ohmmeter you can can check
[21:55:01] <pcw_home> if this is the case and re-routing the PC power or VFD filter does not
[21:55:03] <pcw_home> help it may require a common mode choke on the analog lines to the drives
[21:55:04] <pcw_home> (a large ferrite bead basically)
[21:56:21] <PetefromTn> With an Ohm Meter you can check what exactly?
[21:56:43] <pcw_home> (when I say this is the case I mean you find the the servo or VFD drives low side input is grounded)
[21:56:53] <PetefromTn> Honestly do not know how I will re-route the PC power as it has no where else to go...
[22:00:05] <pcw_home> If you can re-route it temporarily that will check if its the problem
[22:01:43] <andypugh> PetefromTn: OK, your wiring matches the VFD manual (I just checked)
[22:01:55] <PetefromTn> Yeah we can re-route it and hookup to an extension chord up front and try it. I honestly doubt that is the problem because they do run downt the same corridor but it is not tight at all, honestly there could be several inches between them and with it being a shielded cable it would be doubtful but we'll certainly test it out. I honestly think we probably do not have the grounding design for the 7i77 setup right somehow..
[22:03:46] <PetefromTn> andypugh: Thanks for checking us man, Dunno if we miss something. As I said so far EVERYTHING is working that we have hooked up and we got it all configured to work as designed but we have noise issues. The Filter will probably fix everything as you said it did your setup so since the owners manual recommends it anyways it is a no brainer really.
[22:03:52] <andypugh> pcw_home: http://www.driveswarehouse.com/documentation/Hitachi/WJ200R.pdf page 29, at the bottom, sourcing outputs. It is a rather funny diagram though, why three 24V sources?
[22:05:10] <andypugh> The VFD suppliers are so insistent on filters that I am not entirely sure why they don't just build them in.
[22:06:36] <PetefromTn> yup that's how we have it right now and again the ground and the shield from the cable are hooked to the TB5 pin 23 of 7i77....
[22:06:44] <PetefromTn> COST!!
[22:09:42] <PetefromTn> Thats for the Analog output of course...
[22:10:25] <PetefromTn> OOps sorry thats for the fwd and rev outputs.....to VFD inputs.
[22:11:08] <andypugh> I was wondering...
[22:11:36] <andypugh> Anyway, time to log off.
[22:11:54] <pcw_home> If you had the encoder error even without the VFD running
[22:11:56] <pcw_home> I suspect there will still be a problem with a VFD line filter
[22:11:57] <pcw_home> a line filter on the PC might be worth a try
[22:14:09] <PetefromTn> That is doable.... Cannot remember if we had an error without the VFD running. We DID have a couple errors pop up everytime we tried to slow the speed too quickly until we changed a setting in the VFD. Then we had control and it would not error out. We are investigating a braking resistor now since we knew we would need one even before we bought the drive.
[22:15:45] <PetefromTn> We have honestly been getting these errors occasionally while we made all these configuration changes and it is hard to tell what is the cause at the time because we are concentrating on configuration and wiring issues so now that all of these things are mostly done we can surely pay more attention to when and why any errors pop up.
[22:16:32] <pcw_home> common mode chokes on servo and VFD inputs and outputs are
[22:16:34] <pcw_home> another common remediation
[22:16:35] <pcw_home> (the little gray ovals on page 11 of the Hitachi manual)
[22:18:14] <pcw_home> (giant ferrite beads with all power (but not ground) wire routed through)
[22:18:50] <PetefromTn> Yup familiar with chokes.... well exhaust these other things first and then try that.
[22:22:42] <PetefromTn> I still cannot believe we have made so much progress on this in such a short time LOL....
[22:39:30] <PetefromTn> Well thanks so much Pete and Andy I am gonna go to bed LOL....have a good night.