#linuxcnc | Logs for 2013-04-01

[03:13:50] <DJ9DJ> moin
[09:13:32] <R2E4_awy> How do they get away with selling systems based on usb. Thats not real time.
[09:13:48] <R2E4_awy> The latency must be terrible especially wioth windows.
[09:14:19] <archivist> because the realtime part is external too (if it works at all)
[09:15:02] <cradek> you just need a buffer of several seconds, and you have to accept that the machine will continue on its own merry way for a while after you try to tell it different
[09:15:08] <R2E4_awy> Then there is no error correction and true feedback?
[09:15:23] <pcw_home> There may be local feedback
[09:15:37] <R2E4_awy> hmmm.
[09:15:54] <cradek> yes everything that requires up-to-date feedback has to be implemented in the black box
[09:16:13] <cradek> so each black-box-maker has to do each of those things
[09:16:15] <R2E4_awy> ANyway, I am starting my conversion to 220 single phase on my bridgeport.
[09:16:58] <R2E4_awy> Then will power up to see if everything is working, so I can convert to mesa boards and linuxcnc
[09:19:19] <tjb1> r00t4rd3d:
[09:43:41] <r00t4rd3d> ?
[10:39:08] <r00t4rd3d> http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=70655&c=
[11:15:03] <tjb1> 1/2" is soo hard on the powermax 45
[11:20:42] <andypugh> r00t4rd3d: I can't decide if that Spider Vice is real. It looke plausible and convincing, except for the write-up towards the end.
[11:27:30] <andypugh> If I want to write some G-code to cut radial slots do I use trigonometry, polar coordinates or G10 cordinate rotation?
[11:29:31] <cradek> yes
[11:30:05] <skunkworks_> R2E4_awy, They use a different archetecture.. The device is the motion control - all the moves get heh
[11:30:11] <skunkworks_> oops
[11:30:21] <skunkworks_> I meant 'heh'
[11:51:02] <IchGuckLive> hi all B)
[11:54:38] <IchGuckLive> jt-shop?
[11:57:35] <IchGuckLive> @ all im in trouble with the hal position feedback
[11:57:41] <IchGuckLive> i hijekt Z-pos
[11:57:55] <IchGuckLive> net Zpos-cmd thcud.z-pos-in <= axis.2.motor-pos-cmd
[11:57:57] <IchGuckLive> net Zthcud-out thcud.z-pos-out => stepgen.2.position-cmd
[11:58:18] <IchGuckLive> this works but gives an error AS EXpected to the position feedback
[11:58:39] <IchGuckLive> net Zpos-fb stepgen.2.position-fb => axis.2.motor-pos-fb THIS is the feedback
[11:59:00] <IchGuckLive> the Hijekt Feedback is thcud.z-fb-out
[11:59:15] <IchGuckLive> how do i get them into the working hal
[12:06:58] <andypugh> I think that the stepgen feedback goes into one pin of the thc, and there is a "modified" feedback out to keep LinuxCNC happy.
[12:07:31] <andypugh> There is something to be said for the idea of every joint having an optional "external offset" pin.
[12:08:49] <IchGuckLive> ok i try
[12:09:07] <andypugh> One problem with writing code on a VM inside, in the warm, then going out to the machine, is that it is possible, if you are really stupid, to forget that the Machine still has the Axis splash screen code loaded...
[12:09:45] <pcw_home> Yow!
[12:10:20] <andypugh> Luckily it was a 2mm end mill, and didn't put up much of a fight.
[12:14:52] <r00t4rd3d> "Google pays Mozilla $300Million/year to be the default search engine in Firefox"
[12:21:11] * cpresser is quite puzzled. i tried to mill a 'L' into my sacrificial layer in order to align my workpiece along those lines
[12:21:30] <cpresser> turns out the corner is no 90%
[12:21:48] <jdh> is it 90% of 90 degrees?
[12:21:52] <cpresser> but rather a litte less than 90°
[12:22:00] <cpresser> typo
[12:22:55] <cpresser> i used this setup for mor than a year and never seen anything like this. i wonder if it always has been aligned this bad
[12:23:55] <archivist> cpresser, see http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/gcode/gcode.html#sec:G61-G61_1
[12:24:01] * cpresser needs to to more experiments. and see if i can reproduve this error
[12:24:46] <cpresser> archivist: i ran the moves (for milling the L) by entering commands into MDI. the machine was at a complete stop between individual moves
[12:25:03] <ReadError> r00t4rd3d, you gone with those blue tslots yet?
[12:25:14] <cpresser> but as a matter of fact, i use G64 per default
[12:25:16] <archivist> cpresser, and any machine error :)
[12:25:58] <cpresser> archivist: the thing is that i wasnt aware that the mechanical machine error is that big
[12:26:01] <IchGuckLive> cpresser: G64 P ?
[12:26:08] <archivist> I dunno what your machine looks like, commercial or homebrew
[12:26:26] <IchGuckLive> commercal G64 is not a good idee
[12:26:51] <cpresser> homebrew; but quite sturdy. http://ca.rstenpresser.de/~cpresser/tmp/pictures/unsorted/aussenwerbung/fertigung.jpg
[12:27:15] <cpresser> 80x80mm aluminium profiles for the frame.
[12:28:25] <archivist> how is the gantry driven, one or two drives
[12:28:44] <cpresser> one drive. linked via timing belt
[12:29:03] <archivist> how is it kept square, adjustment?
[12:29:36] <archivist> one pulley come loose
[12:30:00] <cpresser> yep, it was adjusted on installation. guess i need to check all involved mechanical parts
[12:30:58] <cpresser> most likely you are right with the pully. or the belt itself wore of..
[12:31:09] <archivist> if you have more backlash one side then squareness depends on direction too
[12:32:49] <cpresser> interesting point. i will try to reproduce that. but i dont think its backlash related. the error is visible with the plain eye. backlash is not (on this machine)
[12:34:14] <cpresser> the error is a magnitute order larger than backlash
[12:35:17] <archivist> I had pulleys slip after some use
[12:46:14] <IchGuckLive> im not getting the hijek done joint folling error error
[12:49:38] <IchGuckLive> GOT it oneshot 0.001 s
[12:53:05] <IchGuckLive> will test this tomorow on a real mashine
[12:53:25] <IchGuckLive> maybe i hijakt now the way only the numbers mve but no mashine
[12:53:29] <IchGuckLive> O.O
[12:55:28] <andypugh> Googling for thcud I found: http://trecko1234.appspot.com/pastebin.com/KWz7FDBJ
[13:14:58] <IchGuckLive> andy thanks
[13:15:29] <IchGuckLive> andypugh: jt-s version http://gnipsel.com/shop/plasma/plasma.xhtml
[13:23:39] <IchGuckLive> so im off by
[13:47:01] <andypugh> Adjustable locknut idea stolen directly from a Ducati rear wheel: https://plus.google.com/photos/108164504656404380542/albums/5747722155741347649/5861948098132803058
[13:50:34] <pcw_home> thats nice, vernier locknut
[13:50:52] <Connor> andypugh: How does that work ?
[13:52:24] <andypugh> Connor: It's a vernier locknit.
[13:53:23] <andypugh> There is one more slot in the inner than the outer, so different ones line up approximately every 4 degrees.
[13:53:44] <andypugh> Then the spring-clip goes in the selected pair.
[13:53:53] <Connor> ok
[13:54:53] <pcw_home> I wonder if those people doing the SSI interface on the forum gave up or were successful (and quiet)
[13:55:08] <andypugh> Might be worth prodding them.
[13:55:17] <pcw_home> Got another customer that needs SSI
[13:55:58] <pcw_home> got them trying rawread/rawwrite for now
[13:56:25] <andypugh> Is the problem with the lack of a HAL interface?
[13:57:05] <andypugh> It's probably doable in much the same way as the BSPI, with a clever HAL component just getting access to the registers.
[13:58:29] <pcw_home> Yes no HAL but SSI is much simpler than BSPI so could be just a clone of the resolver interface (with a couple setup parameters)
[13:59:11] <pcw_home> though no velocity pin :-(
[13:59:54] <Connor> SSI ?
[14:00:29] <pcw_home> Synchronous Serial Interface
[14:00:30] <pcw_home> common for absolute encoders
[14:00:43] <Connor> Ah.
[14:01:18] <Connor> Was just talking about Absolute encoders yesterday.. :)
[14:01:43] <pcw_home> very simple: host sends out clock pulse train, encoder sends back synchronous data
[14:02:08] <pcw_home> first clock pulse latches count in encoder
[14:04:11] <pcw_home> kind of like SPI but unidirectional and framing is determined by gap in clock, not CS
[14:08:25] <pcw_home> Some of the magnetic absolute encoders use SSI (AMS?), others use BISS (ICHaus?)
[14:36:17] <mrsun> andypugh, https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-4gZd6XLYfQw/TwXpNoFfKoI/AAAAAAAABRU/vqkx96KRCok/s700/IMG_0277.JPG homemade encoder ?
[14:37:36] <andypugh> Yes. But it didn't work with the sensors I had. It would probably work with different ones. http://youtu.be/c1zCG-uPaoM
[14:38:18] <andypugh> Pen as resist, cnc drawn, then etched to make the unprotected parts matt.
[14:39:09] <mrsun> how is it supposed to work ? :)
[14:39:23] <andypugh> reflective sensors.
[14:39:27] <mrsun> ahh
[14:39:47] <mrsun> brittish ? :)
[14:40:01] <andypugh> Me? Yes.
[14:40:25] <mrsun> feels like i recognize the voice ...
[14:40:41] <mrsun> but cant place it :P
[14:40:51] <andypugh> That's odd, because I don't recognise it as mine.
[14:41:25] <mrsun> maybe some youtube video ive seen before ? hmm
[14:41:32] <mrsun> or someone who sounds just like you :P
[14:41:53] <andypugh> Probably my other hobbing video?
[14:42:46] <mrsun> do not regocnize any of the videos under the username andy pugh atleast =)
[14:42:47] <mrsun> oh well
[14:43:05] <andypugh> I used to be called blyndpew on Youtube I think.
[14:51:24] <ProxDem> hum
[14:51:34] <ProxDem> I want to set feed override back to 100%
[14:51:41] <ProxDem> but somehow it will only let me go to 99% or 101%
[14:51:48] <ProxDem> anybody got some insight on this?
[14:54:24] <micges> press 0 on keyboard
[14:54:53] <micges> (above 'p' not numeric)
[14:55:12] <ProxDem> awesome
[14:55:13] <ProxDem> thanks micges
[14:55:38] <ProxDem> not that 99% or 101% would've made a huge difference
[14:55:40] <ProxDem> I was just curious
[14:56:04] <ProxDem> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Keyboard_Shortcuts <-- it was right there
[14:56:06] <ProxDem> damn I'm blind
[15:18:51] <tjtr33> my robot's encoders are not synchronous, only has +v,0,D+,D- absolute encoders http://imagebin.org/252441
[15:19:11] <tjtr33> the protocol is discussed here http://www.copleycontrols.com/motion/pdf/encoder-guide.pdf
[15:19:20] <tjtr33> so, i got a start :)
[15:25:17] <PCW> so its absolute A?
[15:27:15] <tjtr33> yep, i dunno much more, its now clean and i'll look at an encoder soon
[15:27:32] <PCW> can you get better protocol/command/timing info?
[15:27:52] <PCW> maybe its just async
[15:28:10] <tjtr33> not so far :) the Diahen co doesnt make them anymore
[15:28:34] <tjtr33> yes, i thought Absolute A was 1 way & a-synch
[15:28:54] <tjtr33> just a guy yelling out position and erros :)
[15:30:21] <tjtr33> if the rate is high enuf, it might do me some good for an rt system ( like > 2x servo update rate ?)
[15:33:49] <PCW> Without knowing the baud rate, its hard to tell
[15:34:18] <tjtr33> yep, but copley suggests its 1 of 2 ( crosses fingers)
[15:35:12] <tjtr33> its an OTC Daihen DR603 manipulator ( they call the robot itself the manipul8r) ftp://dewalch.com/pub/incoming/DR%20Installation%20&%20Maintenance%20%281L5000A-E-10%29.pdf
[15:36:06] <PCW> who made the encoders?
[15:36:55] <tjtr33> i'll open it up and look, the web rumor is Sanyo Denkii
[15:37:10] <tjtr33> bbl
[15:41:40] <PCW> ahh so 2.5 or 4 mbaud
[16:11:26] <L84Supper> tjtr33: http://www.alioindustries.com/custom-motion-systems.html ever have any experience with these guys?
[16:12:03] <DJ9DJ> gn8
[16:12:10] <Tom_itx> andypugh, seems alot of things work on the 'one less tooth' principle like the harmonic drive etc
[16:13:18] <tjtr33> L84Supper, no biz, but i recognize the logo. very nice lookin
[16:13:40] <L84Supper> www.alioindustries.com/pdf/alio-4-axis-protein-crystallography-v3.pdf i wonder what the prices is for this?
[16:15:08] <r00t4rd3d> looks like about 40-50k
[16:15:34] <r00t4rd3d> probably more
[16:16:31] <r00t4rd3d> what the heck do you want to do with that anyway?
[16:16:49] <r00t4rd3d> science?
[16:17:00] <L84Supper> lasers and micronozzles
[16:17:37] <r00t4rd3d> my price guess was probably super low
[16:18:26] <L84Supper> two photon absorption can get you down to 100nm features in photopolymers
[16:19:06] <L84Supper> one problem is making parts over a few microns across since the mechanisms are very precise over a small area
[16:19:35] <L84Supper> not over a large area, or only have a short travel
[16:21:30] <L84Supper> http://www.photonics.com/Article.aspx?AID=26907
[16:24:29] <PCW> Sync to what you have already hardened
[16:26:26] <PCW> tjtr http://db.sanyodenki.co.jp/downfile/manuals_en/SANMOTION/M0006890.pdf
[16:26:27] <PCW> section 9
[16:36:24] <tjtr33> PCW thx! reading now. its really quite nice build, nice mounts and easy to work on so far. motor&enc had cnxrs :) http://imagebin.org/252450
[16:37:35] <L84Supper> for larger parts with >1um features you can use an optical microscope to align the next field or area to print
[16:37:50] <L84Supper> for 100nm features you need to have a SEM
[16:38:27] <L84Supper> or really really small encoders
[16:40:15] <PCW> print the encoders
[16:40:24] <tjtr33> PCW, wow, you da man! . i'll hook that up to putty and see what i can read. thank you very much
[16:40:41] <L84Supper> yeah, print 100nm alternating reference marks
[16:41:16] <tjtr33> AndyPugh ^^ some good info on that Absolute A encoder protocol
[16:42:33] <PCW> You can use physics, high speed motion and a clock to get good short term spacing, and calibrate out the long term errors...
[16:42:51] <tjtr33> L84Supper, position with a rack and use tiny stroke nano precision slides. big motion uses rack, small motion uses piezo/whatever, thats the idea behind the hirth gears
[16:43:01] <tjtr33> gears/racks
[16:44:12] <tjtr33> err not a rack and a gear, a rack and a rack, it just positions the tiny slide along the long rack
[16:45:20] <tjtr33> tiny slide has rack segment on bottom, it gets plunked down on long rack (mechanical offset, very acurate)
[16:59:25] <t12> my udnerstanding is that hd platter inspection systems
[16:59:31] <t12> are mechanically repeatable to a few nm
[17:01:08] <skunkworks> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvQAovuRfL4
[17:01:20] <L84Supper> http://www.alioindustries.com/pdf/0010-00625-001AI-D8-40000E.pdf
[17:01:23] <skunkworks> must be using a profile (I assume it is a manual lathe)
[17:04:17] <r00t4rd3d> so i am sick to death of the internets version of april fools
[17:04:37] <L84Supper> 200mm XY travel, encoder res down to 5nm http://www.alioindustries.com/pdf/0010-02770-001AI-LM-20000-XY.pdf
[17:07:17] <L84Supper> huh ends up Alio actually makes stages for other automation vendors like Dover, Fuji, Adept and Parker
[17:07:32] <L84Supper> no wonder they all look similar
[17:59:19] <LeelooMinai> Hmm... anyone has an idea what I can expect from 6061T6 alu "flat bar" in terms of tolerances? I mean in general, not from particular place.
[18:00:57] <andypugh> Any one piece will probably be very consistent, but piece-to-piece may vary.
[18:01:27] <LeelooMinai> May I assume the sirface will be, well flat?
[18:01:31] <L84Supper> LeelooMinai: approx what size?
[18:01:48] <andypugh> How flat do you want?
[18:02:01] <andypugh> Cast tooling plate is pretty flat.
[18:02:23] <LeelooMinai> I am looking at metal supermarkets as the source of materials for my CNC frame. So sizes like 1 by 2 inch, and maybe some 6 by 1 inch
[18:02:37] <L84Supper> +/- 0.002" for thickness up to 1", 0.005" for 2"
[18:03:11] <LeelooMinai> L84Supper: Is that bar to bar or changes withing one bar?
[18:03:11] <L84Supper> extruded +/- 0.014" for the same
[18:03:46] <L84Supper> within a bar
[18:04:12] <LeelooMinai> Hmm... am I sane to use those for the frame? Or maybe I should use hollow tubing instead?
[18:04:36] <L84Supper> frame for what?
[18:04:47] <LeelooMinai> CNC - 50cm by 50xm footrpint or soe
[18:05:35] <L84Supper> http://www.programmingz.com/aluminum-association-standard-tolerances
[18:07:18] <L84Supper> http://www.sapagroup.com/pages/522554/Standards%20for%20Alum.%20Products%2012-07.pdf
[18:08:36] <L84Supper> LeelooMinai: it depends on how accurate you want the machine to be, it's just raw material, you have to take it the rest of the way yourself
[18:09:20] <LeelooMinai> I guess hollow tubing may be stiffer for the same price, but joining it will be more problematic as I will have limited wall thickness to screw the bolts to
[18:09:22] <L84Supper> if you want to buy precision look at linear positioners
[18:10:27] <LeelooMinai> I have ballscrews and rails ordered already - just designing the frame
[18:11:46] <LeelooMinai> Hoping to build it to be stiff and maybe square:)
[18:12:23] <L84Supper> http://www.cnczone.com/ maybe spend a few weeks reading through the forums
[18:12:54] <L84Supper> http://machinedesign.com
[18:13:15] <LeelooMinai> Right, I am there - I read a bit everyday, but there's so much info there, that sometimes I find conflicting views or too much detail
[18:14:10] <LeelooMinai> Also, some of the guys think everyone has some huge milling machine at home:)
[18:14:34] <L84Supper> doesn't everyone? :)
[18:15:18] <andypugh> I only have two small ones.
[18:15:20] <LeelooMinai> Well, since it's my first CNC, all I can use is large drill press
[18:16:09] <LeelooMinai> And mitre saw with blade for aluminum
[18:18:16] <andypugh> I see now why folk complain that PyCAM is slow.
[18:21:40] <andypugh> Night all
[19:35:47] <ProxDem> argg...leveling the bed when the X axis sags in the middle seems like a waste of time =(
[19:44:04] <Valen> use a custom kins module?
[19:44:10] <Valen> compensate for it? ;->
[19:49:44] <ProxDem> hum interesting got any good readup on that?
[19:53:05] <Valen> none at all lol
[19:53:06] <Valen> sorry
[19:53:13] <Valen> but i believe it has been done already
[20:09:38] <r00t4rd3d> ReadError, http://i.imgur.com/bL8thqy.jpg
[20:16:48] <ProxDem> Valen: any clue about google terms search other then sag/sagging compensation?
[20:18:23] <Valen> no sorry
[20:21:09] <ProxDem> thanks for the info still =)
[20:21:22] <ProxDem> if anybody else has some info about axis "sagging" compensation please let me know!
[20:23:08] <Valen> this might be a place to start http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?ProbeKins
[20:25:14] <ProxDem> awesome thanks
[20:25:52] <r00t4rd3d> http://i.imgur.com/6Y4Hcvs.jpg
[20:31:20] <L84Supper> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7cjo4kTYMw 5-axis LinuxCNC mill
[20:31:26] <PCW_> Seems like you might have to walk sideways upstairs
[20:34:05] <L84Supper> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aF7C8d4d0nc I like the manual vac attachment :)
[20:38:17] <ProxDem> Valen: thanks for all the info...now to decypher all that...and try to use it in a real world scenario
[20:38:49] <Valen> good luck
[20:40:15] <ProxDem> yeah
[20:40:28] <ProxDem> I think I'm gonna need it as I'm unsure of how to set that up lol
[21:12:56] <r00t4rd3d> do you have a digital probe?
[21:13:33] * jdh avoids r00ts digital probing
[21:15:27] <r00t4rd3d> http://www.ebay.com/itm/CNC-3D-Digitizing-Probe-for-Mach3-Stepper-Motor-routers-Lowest-Cost-Qualityprobe-/330685665791?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4cfe66d1ff
[21:16:29] <r00t4rd3d> or the more expensive model
[21:16:30] <r00t4rd3d> http://www.ebay.com/itm/digitizing-probe-4-cnc-sherline-maxnc-taig-plasma-cutter-mill-router-engraver-/160763530758?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item256e40ce06
[21:21:32] <jdh> I'd like one of those, but I'm too cheap.
[21:21:46] <jdh> and I keep thinking someday, I'll make one.
[21:32:24] <r00t4rd3d> http://www.machsupport.com/docs/SW_Digitising_Probe.pdf
[21:32:45] <r00t4rd3d> make me one too
[21:33:28] <r00t4rd3d> thats messed up Mach offers their users probe plans
[21:35:35] <jdh> not Mach, just some guy made them available
[21:36:24] <r00t4rd3d> http://www.grunblau.com/brian/downloads/CNC%20Digitizing%20Probe.pdf
[21:36:30] <r00t4rd3d> thats pretty cool, simple
[21:38:52] <r00t4rd3d> i think iam gonna make that
[21:41:18] <r00t4rd3d> http://www.mycncuk.com/forums/diy-project-building/3739-touch-probe-3.html#post27397
[21:41:30] <r00t4rd3d> the second post CAD is a dxf
[22:07:18] <r00t4rd3d> and ready to cut
[22:11:42] <pcw_home> MDF seems like a poor choice stability wise
[22:13:46] <coors> hi! has anybody recently bought linear motion parts by any chance?
[22:14:58] <r00t4rd3d> pcw_home, i would never use mdf
[22:15:13] <r00t4rd3d> white walmart cutting board :)
[22:15:47] <r00t4rd3d> coors, what kinda linear motion parts?
[22:16:09] <r00t4rd3d> or better yet whats really your question
[22:17:16] <coors> i am trying to upgrade a small machine for pcb milling
[22:17:32] <coors> about 8" x 10" with something like 4" z-travel
[22:17:51] <coors> and i am looking for precise, but not too expensive ballscrews and guides
[22:18:10] <coors> can't do too much machining here, but i got a mill and lathe i can use to make adapters and such
[22:18:22] <r00t4rd3d> you in usa?
[22:18:55] <coors> yeah, indiana
[22:19:16] <r00t4rd3d> cheapest place to get balls screws is on ebay from china/hong kong/asia
[22:19:25] <coors> yeah, but are those any good?
[22:19:46] <coors> i haven't bought any, so i was trying to find people who have and can tell me about their experiences
[22:19:51] <r00t4rd3d> im sure you still get what you pay for
[22:20:09] <coors> yeah, so what i want is <1 mil repeatability
[22:20:25] <coors> so not crazy precise but ok for milling pcbs on a small machine
[22:20:43] <coors> just don't wanna go all out and spend thousands unless there's no way around it
[22:20:46] <r00t4rd3d> http://www.cncrouterparts.com/mechanical-cnc-components-c-21.html
[22:21:04] <coors> i've seen those
[22:21:14] <coors> those are acme screws not ballscrews
[22:21:27] <coors> but maybe those would still work
[22:21:30] <coors> i am just not sure
[22:21:45] <r00t4rd3d> lots of people use their parts, myself included
[22:22:15] <coors> cool, what are you usually cutting?
[22:22:20] <r00t4rd3d> wood
[22:22:44] <coors> wood and usually 10" and larger?
[22:22:53] <coors> or do you do a lot of really fine stuff, too?
[22:23:22] <r00t4rd3d> i recently did a 1400 letter poem :/
[22:23:27] <coors> basically, on mine i attached a dial gauge and i can see i get a few thou backlash/slop
[22:23:47] <r00t4rd3d> got a pic of you setup?
[22:23:50] <coors> it's 3-5 thou, but too much for what i am trying to do
[22:24:02] <coors> unfortunately no atm
[22:24:13] <coors> took it to the university to have the machinist check it out
[22:24:29] <coors> http://www.mydiycnc.com/
[22:24:34] <coors> that's the base thing i got
[22:24:59] <coors> added an aluminum gantry and a better spindle, microstepping motor drivers so far
[22:25:17] <coors> so it's ready to kill the mechanical slop now
[22:25:24] <r00t4rd3d> did you get the complete kit?
[22:26:06] <coors> yeah
[22:26:15] <coors> but it turned out to be crap in my opinion
[22:26:30] <r00t4rd3d> i didnt want to tell you it was shit but if you already know
[22:26:41] <coors> well, quite good for $400, but people told me you can do PCBs on that one
[22:26:45] <coors> and i don't think you can
[22:27:06] <coors> so i didnt expect too much, but what i bought it for can't be done
[22:27:43] <r00t4rd3d> thats all you want to do is pcb?
[22:28:10] <r00t4rd3d> a mini mill would be better i think
[22:28:34] <coors> like that grizzly thing or the one from little machineshop?
[22:28:43] <coors> or are you thinking a proxxon clone?
[22:29:08] <coors> i don't need to make big parts
[22:29:15] <r00t4rd3d> http://www.minitechcnc.com/mini_mill_2.htm
[22:29:17] <coors> but for the small ones, i wanna make em right
[22:29:23] <r00t4rd3d> for the picture
[22:29:36] <r00t4rd3d> something like that
[22:30:36] <coors> yeah that's close to what i should have gotten
[22:30:39] <coors> :>
[22:31:09] <r00t4rd3d> http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Vge7xEi-f-o/S1yTxjUFOMI/AAAAAAAAAGI/7i5LiTl04MA/s1600/100_3565.JPG
[22:31:51] <r00t4rd3d> you could probably use your router to make the parts for that
[22:32:22] <r00t4rd3d> your machine needs to be rock solid to do good pcb work
[22:33:13] <coors> yeah that's kinda what i had in mind
[22:33:25] <coors> i wouldn't use plastic, but actually machine the frame from aluminum
[22:33:41] <coors> i could most likely get scrap aluminum for free that i can use
[22:33:49] <coors> those are acme screws or ballscrews?
[22:34:19] <r00t4rd3d> i would cut the plastic on my router to get the mill built then use the mill to redo the plastic into alumin.
[22:34:47] <coors> yeah, i suppose that could work
[22:34:53] <r00t4rd3d> goto walmart and get some .5 white cutting boards
[22:35:00] <coors> not sure my spindle will do it right though
[22:35:08] <coors> oh i got hdpe from grainger here
[22:35:13] <coors> same prize, bigger sheets
[22:35:14] <r00t4rd3d> cool
[22:35:22] <r00t4rd3d> go slow
[22:35:36] <jdh> I made stepper mounts and ball nut mounts for my mill out of delrin on my router. Then made new ones out of aluminum on the mill
[22:35:45] <r00t4rd3d> most people think they have to run their machine as fast as it will go
[22:36:01] <coors> i go 3"/min for pcb stuff
[22:36:10] <coors> but even that doesnt help :>
[22:36:22] <coors> http://www.wolfgangengineering.com/Spindles.php
[22:36:29] <coors> that's the spindle i got
[22:36:38] <coors> 200W cutting power is bs
[22:36:49] <coors> but you might get 50-100W
[22:37:05] <coors> what exactly is delrin btw?
[22:37:12] <jdh> Acetal
[22:37:27] <coors> oh ok
[22:37:41] <r00t4rd3d> damn that spindle is cool
[22:37:45] <coors> i guess it flexes less that hdpe and is still easy to cut?
[22:37:51] <r00t4rd3d> my controller could run that
[22:37:54] <coors> i got it because of the runout
[22:38:01] <coors> and it seems to run pretty well
[22:38:19] <r00t4rd3d> you really only give it 12v?
[22:38:19] <coors> problem is the rest of the machine is shit, so i can't even tell if it's good :)
[22:38:24] <coors> yeah
[22:38:35] <coors> i am just using PWM to control it
[22:38:47] <coors> low rpm is not good, because you lose way too much power
[22:38:57] <coors> but close to max rpm it's actually quite good
[22:39:06] <r00t4rd3d> its almost like a rc spindle
[22:39:14] <coors> i put a gauge to it and i barely see it move
[22:39:39] <coors> it's basically a dc motor from some rc car that uses a beltdrive for the spindle
[22:39:55] <coors> so the spindle can be supported by bearing on top and bottom to make it run true
[22:40:36] <r00t4rd3d> http://www.hexapodrobot.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12&f=14
[22:40:40] <r00t4rd3d> 2nd post
[22:40:46] <r00t4rd3d> that thing looks bad ass
[22:41:18] <coors> hehe
[22:41:21] <coors> i saw it
[22:41:31] <coors> and i was like "i can't imagine all the problem it has"
[22:41:45] <coors> but i give the guy a ton of respect for getting it to work at all
[22:41:54] <coors> have you seen those quadcopters?
[22:42:11] <r00t4rd3d> yweah
[22:42:13] <r00t4rd3d> http://www.buildlog.net/blog/2011/09/new-brushless-dc-router-spindle/
[22:42:18] <coors> five years ago, i started building one and my boss made fun of me for that
[22:42:20] <r00t4rd3d> one you could build on yoru machine
[22:42:29] <coors> well, now you can buy kits on amazon and stuff
[22:42:47] <coors> should have stopped working and just sell those on amazon back then
[22:42:53] <coors> i'd probably be better off now
[22:42:58] <coors> and could afford a real cnc :>
[22:43:33] <coors> yeah the bldc ones are interesting
[22:43:43] <coors> i got some motors leftover that i was thinking about using
[22:43:58] <coors> just in case the normal dc motor dies on me
[22:44:32] <coors> those are 12A 10kV ones i think
[22:45:51] <coors> wow theirs is quite badass
[22:46:00] <coors> 1/2 hp, but it does overheat
[22:46:50] <coors> mine would be something like 12A 15V or so
[22:47:03] <coors> not sure what they wanna cut
[22:47:10] <coors> maybe 1/4" cuts in aluminum
[22:49:29] <r00t4rd3d> http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=wolfgang314&&_trksid=p2047675.l2560&rt=nc&iid=171011518183&sspagename=VIP:feedback&ftab=FeedbackAsSeller
[22:49:38] <r00t4rd3d> he has sold a lot of them on ebay too
[22:50:32] <coors> yeah people usually like em
[22:50:43] <coors> there's some bad feedback on cnczone though'
[22:50:55] <coors> basically because he doesn't know electronics
[22:51:14] <coors> but to me that was no issue as long as the mechanical part is done right
[22:51:21] <coors> which it is in my opinion
[22:56:33] <r00t4rd3d> in the mornings and 5-9pm this channel is a lot more active
[22:57:28] <r00t4rd3d> 10pm-7am not a good time for tech questions
[22:57:54] <r00t4rd3d> eastern time
[22:58:27] <coors> yeah, i'll have to try again
[22:58:34] <coors> but i appreciate your help
[22:58:45] <coors> i think it was nice talk
[22:59:06] <coors> maybe our machinist can help me out a bit tomorrow
[22:59:15] <r00t4rd3d> theres people here who actually do pcb stuff
[22:59:18] <coors> i hope he looks at it and goes "no kid, here's how you do it"
[22:59:28] <coors> and gives me some old ballscrews he has sitting there :)
[22:59:42] <coors> any idea who i would wanna talk to?
[23:00:34] <r00t4rd3d> i think Tom_itx and ReadError do pcb stuff
[23:01:42] <coors> ok, i guess i should ask them
[23:01:55] <coors> there is a lot of people here
[23:02:06] <coors> i usually make it home around 7-8 est
[23:02:23] <coors> so i just gotta get on before dinner and watching tv one of these days :)
[23:04:51] <coors> so what are you using again?
[23:04:57] <coors> acme screws, right?
[23:05:08] <r00t4rd3d> hardware store threaded rod
[23:05:25] <coors> the dumpster cnc ones?
[23:05:32] <coors> oh ok, that's what i got now
[23:05:45] <coors> have you put a dial gauge on that to see what's going on?
[23:05:52] <r00t4rd3d> i use the dumpster cnc couplers backlash nuts
[23:06:03] <r00t4rd3d> for the UN stuff
[23:06:20] <coors> wait, that's just hardware store grade?
[23:06:32] <r00t4rd3d> yeah
[23:06:46] <r00t4rd3d> 3/8-16 you can get at any hardware store
[23:07:04] <r00t4rd3d> http://dumpstercnc.com/un_menu.html
[23:07:19] <r00t4rd3d> well that link only sorta works
[23:07:32] <r00t4rd3d> http://dumpstercnc.com/
[23:08:08] <coors> oh, so what does it look like on a gauge? is your accurate to 1 mil?
[23:08:34] <coors> sorry, i got a bit distracted by this one
[23:08:35] <coors> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cySnG42s0lE
[23:08:49] <r00t4rd3d> never checked it
[23:09:01] <r00t4rd3d> seems pretty accurate though
[23:09:02] <r00t4rd3d> http://i.imgur.com/ItAawnD.jpg
[23:09:02] <coors> oh, you think you can do it?
[23:09:27] <coors> that one is yours?
[23:09:49] <r00t4rd3d> something i made yeah
[23:09:53] <coors> i like it, what are the dimensions on it?
[23:10:04] <r00t4rd3d> like 8x4
[23:10:07] <coors> i think what i am doing is a bit smaller than the small grooves on that one
[23:10:31] <coors> yeah, probably about 10x smaller than that
[23:10:37] <coors> that might be the problem
[23:10:43] <r00t4rd3d> http://i.imgur.com/bOwJHzp.jpg
[23:10:57] <r00t4rd3d> thats a pic from last year, Ive upgraded lots of stuff since
[23:11:23] <coors> i think it looks great
[23:11:36] <coors> i've had a lot of luck making regular stuff from hdpe
[23:11:50] <coors> just the small features on PCBs wont work out
[23:12:05] <Tom_itx> why not etch pcbs?
[23:12:41] <coors> mostly because of the drilling
[23:12:54] <coors> i do a lot of projects that have a lot of parts and holes
[23:13:21] <coors> and after drilling 100 holes per board on 5 boards one day i decided i wanted to have a mill for that
[23:13:32] <Tom_itx> i like smt much better
[23:13:34] <coors> i was thinking about etching and then just drilling on the cnc
[23:13:44] <coors> but i'd have the same issue with backlash/slop
[23:14:12] <coors> yeah, i got quite a few parts as smt
[23:14:24] <coors> but all the connectors i am using are through hole
[23:14:43] <Tom_itx> i just have boards made anymore. i guess i'm geting lazy
[23:14:49] <coors> i guess i could make mostly smt boards
[23:15:03] <coors> yeah, i was looking into that
[23:15:05] <Tom_itx> it's not that much to have em made
[23:15:18] <coors> there's some pretty good deals out there especially if you have small series to make
[23:15:41] <coors> or you could get them panelized if you are willing to wait
[23:15:56] <Tom_itx> i've done both
[23:16:03] <Tom_itx> usually takes about the same time
[23:16:05] <coors> i have never had one made
[23:16:12] <Tom_itx> i've had quite a few done
[23:16:17] <L84Supper> coors: what size boards do you make and how many layers?
[23:16:19] <coors> the ones i needed recently, i made with toner transfer etching by hand
[23:16:31] <coors> 1-2 layers up to euro size
[23:16:59] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/etching/etch_index.php
[23:17:10] <Tom_itx> there's my etch tank but i haven't used it in a while
[23:17:24] <coors> i have used it before
[23:17:30] <coors> thats the perchlorate, right?
[23:17:44] <Tom_itx> ammonium or sodium persulphate
[23:17:46] <Tom_itx> i have both
[23:17:46] <coors> i like the ferric/ferrous chloride better even though its more of a mess
[23:18:00] <coors> persulfate?
[23:18:06] <coors> yeah that's right
[23:18:14] <coors> it need to be at ~50 c to etch, right?
[23:18:41] <Tom_itx> i just warm it under the tap water for a bit then etch
[23:19:01] <coors> yeah that'll work
[23:19:01] <L84Supper> we've been working on boards from the other direction, printing both the substrate and the conductors
[23:19:28] <coors> so why not use a fish tank heater as well? that worked quite well for me
[23:19:46] <coors> the bubbler in there is from a fishtank, right? at least the pump
[23:20:14] <Tom_itx> yeah and the hose
[23:20:18] <Tom_itx> just poked holes in it
[23:20:25] <coors> i haven't had much luck with double sided pcbs when doing toner transfer
[23:20:31] <coors> mostly because of alignment
[23:20:36] <Tom_itx> it's not so bad
[23:20:40] <coors> no, i liked it
[23:20:49] <Tom_itx> i use pins for alignment
[23:20:51] <coors> problem was it took longer for me
[23:20:59] <Tom_itx> do both sides at once
[23:21:01] <Tom_itx> i did
[23:21:09] <coors> the ferric chloride is 20 minutes either way, no matter what the temperature is
[23:21:32] <coors> do you laminate you printout?
[23:21:37] <coors> or do you iron it?
[23:21:43] <Tom_itx> iron
[23:21:52] <Tom_itx> i've tried all sorts of stuff
[23:22:01] <coors> oh, i got a little laminator
[23:22:07] <Tom_itx> haven't done much lately though
[23:22:08] <coors> for single sided it works like a charm
[23:22:22] <coors> for double sided it tends to move the paper too much though
[23:22:39] <Tom_itx> you can see my stash of copper at the bottom of that page
[23:22:47] <Tom_itx> i used to have alot more
[23:23:06] <coors> where do you order from? china directly?
[23:23:11] <Tom_itx> usually
[23:23:13] <coors> i tend to get the large sheets from digikey
[23:23:19] <Tom_itx> or a guy in #avr
[23:23:20] <coors> those are reasonable cheap
[23:23:25] <Tom_itx> does orders
[23:23:31] <Tom_itx> from china
[23:23:37] <Tom_itx> pretty good results
[23:23:46] <L84Supper> do you guys plate your thru holes?
[23:23:50] <coors> that's all 1/2 oz?
[23:23:56] <Tom_itx> join #hackvana i think if you want more info
[23:24:00] <coors> no, i solder pins right through
[23:24:05] <coors> plating takes too long for me
[23:24:37] <Tom_itx> yeah, i've never joined there but that's it
[23:25:20] <r00t4rd3d> in #arduino pcb's are discussed a ton also
[23:25:20] <coors> yeah, i like the electronics part
[23:25:29] <r00t4rd3d> eagle all that crap
[23:25:31] <coors> if only the hardware was as easy to handle
[23:25:43] <Tom_itx> http://au.element14.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?sku=1143874
[23:25:49] <Tom_itx> for thru holes
[23:26:03] <Tom_itx> or use components as much as possible
[23:26:33] <coors> those are crimp-style pins?
[23:26:42] <Tom_itx> i think so
[23:26:47] <Tom_itx> i haven't tried em
[23:26:49] <coors> i've never used them
[23:27:00] <coors> yeah i talked to people who said its easy
[23:27:11] <coors> if you got a press
[23:27:45] <coors> well, either way... i think i wanna use my cnc to mill boards
[23:27:57] <coors> basically because i started it and i can't take the defeat :>
[23:28:05] <coors> i don't know if you know that feeling
[23:28:07] <coors> but it bugs me
[23:28:38] <coors> the other ways work for me as well, but it appears that double sided boards are fastest made on a little mill
[23:28:47] <r00t4rd3d> do a led and a battery holder and call it good
[23:28:53] <coors> hehe :)
[23:28:57] <r00t4rd3d> through hole
[23:29:00] <coors> i like that idea
[23:29:11] <coors> i can get thorugh hole things to work
[23:29:18] <coors> it ain't pretty but it's on the PCB
[23:29:31] <coors> just mixed smt/through hole things won't work yet
[23:29:43] <coors> but i need them for USB connections for example
[23:29:48] <Tom_itx> i've come to the conclusion it's cheaper to get them done given my time and the chemicals etc required
[23:29:58] <r00t4rd3d> what kinda pcb's do you wanna make?
[23:30:02] <coors> unless i get my act together and learn how to do USB on those DIP PICs
[23:30:03] <r00t4rd3d> for what
[23:30:04] <Tom_itx> unless i just have something i wanna try real quick
[23:30:33] <r00t4rd3d> it would be cool to mill my own arduino
[23:30:35] <coors> i make a lot of boards that would talk to computers
[23:30:41] <Tom_itx> anyway.. i'm out for tonight
[23:30:49] <coors> like automation stuff and sensor readout for example
[23:30:58] <coors> i've etched my own
[23:31:06] <L84Supper> things would be a lot easier for you guys if you could just inkjet a complete multilayer PCB in a few minutes
[23:31:07] <coors> but the milling is what's next
[23:31:15] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/boards/USB_Breakout/USB_Breakout_index.php
[23:31:17] <coors> i'd love that
[23:31:25] <coors> well tom, have a good night
[23:31:33] <coors> and thanks for your thoughts
[23:31:52] <Tom_itx> that's a little usb breakout board
[23:32:12] <coors> is that an avr with usb otg?
[23:32:15] <Tom_itx> that and LUFA and you're all set
[23:32:16] <Tom_itx> no
[23:32:20] <coors> or is there a ftdi chip hidden somewhere?
[23:32:21] <Tom_itx> only the 2387 is OTG
[23:32:35] <Tom_itx> aarg
[23:32:42] <Tom_itx> not 2387
[23:32:45] <Tom_itx> i forget now
[23:32:55] <coors> looks like mega128 or so
[23:33:07] <coors> but you'd have to have a ft232 or something
[23:33:11] <Tom_itx> mega32u2
[23:33:14] <coors> mega32
[23:33:18] <coors> that's right
[23:33:18] <Tom_itx> u2
[23:33:24] <Tom_itx> is usb
[23:33:31] <coors> mega32 is?
[23:33:37] <Tom_itx> no
[23:33:41] <Tom_itx> the 32u2 is
[23:33:48] <coors> ah that's the trick
[23:33:54] <coors> saves me 8 bucks
[23:34:01] <coors> i'll look into that
[23:34:02] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/boards/atmega32u4/atmega32u4_1.jpg
[23:34:06] <Tom_itx> there's a 32U4
[23:34:18] <Tom_itx> that one has ADC
[23:34:23] <Tom_itx> the first one doesn't
[23:34:38] <L84Supper> http://www.pjrc.com/store/teensy_pins.html is that the same?
[23:34:47] <Tom_itx> very similar
[23:34:49] <coors> hmm
[23:34:57] <coors> when i look on digikey it only lists rs232
[23:34:59] <coors> but no usb
[23:35:05] <coors> http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en/integrated-circuits-ics/embedded-microcontrollers/2556109?k=mega32u4
[23:35:08] <L84Supper> ATMEGA32U4 yeah
[23:35:12] <coors> nvm
[23:35:14] <coors> didnt see it
[23:35:34] <Tom_itx> L84Supper, the teensy2 may be otg
[23:35:42] <coors> hmm, how new is that one?
[23:35:45] <L84Supper> Tom_itx: http://www.pjrc.com/teensy/index.html does you board work with the Teensy loader?
[23:35:46] <Tom_itx> one of his is i believe
[23:35:49] <coors> i must have missed it when i last bought avrs
[23:36:02] <Tom_itx> his bootloader is proprietary
[23:36:09] <coors> i only saw some of the xmegas, but i didnt want 3.3v supply
[23:36:28] <Tom_itx> dean has a bootloader in the LUFA lib and the U chips all come with a bootloader from atmel
[23:37:21] <Tom_itx> the only atmel otg chip is the 1287
[23:37:26] <L84Supper> we were using the ATMEGA32U4 to control a few steppers in a SLA printer
[23:37:31] <Tom_itx> unless some of the xmega are
[23:37:33] <Tom_itx> i dunno
[23:37:40] <coors> i think they are
[23:37:53] <coors> and they have better adcs and a dac as well i think
[23:37:55] <Tom_itx> but they're 3v only parts
[23:37:58] <coors> but no 5v version
[23:38:02] <coors> yeah
[23:38:24] <coors> i ordered one, but couldn't really interface it with anything without level shifters
[23:38:31] <coors> which just pissed me off beyond belief
[23:38:37] <coors> so i pretty much trashed it
[23:39:01] <coors> are you guys around a lot?
[23:39:07] <Tom_itx> nxp makes a good level shifter
[23:39:07] <coors> i like it here :)
[23:39:19] <coors> i tried the one from spark fun, that wasn't bad either
[23:39:26] <Tom_itx> i'm in a few channels here
[23:40:04] <coors> well, i'll be around here for sure
[23:40:09] <coors> but gotta go to bed as well
[23:40:18] <Tom_itx> where are you?
[23:40:23] <coors> i hope we can talk again, you seem to be doing interesting stuff
[23:40:31] <coors> indiana
[23:40:50] <Tom_itx> laters then
[23:40:55] <coors> so i'm on eastern time and it's beyond bed time
[23:40:59] <coors> cya