#linuxcnc | Logs for 2013-03-05

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[00:03:13] <tjb1> Get that fuel pump fixed yet?
[00:04:22] <Jymmm> tjb1: http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1220835-replace-fuel-pump-without-dropping-gas-tank.html#post12786465
[00:05:40] <tjb1> So you could access the fuel pump just by taking a tire off?
[00:05:54] <Jymmm> Does that what it says?
[00:06:06] <tjb1> I dont know, is it?
[00:06:23] <Jymmm> I guess you'll have to read it to find out.
[00:06:41] <tjb1> Tl;dr
[02:13:35] <DJ9DJ> moin
[03:51:36] <sebastian1> good morning
[03:52:43] <sebastian1> i have configured a gantry router with two joints for X
[03:53:17] <sebastian1> for this a have an unusual behavior for homing X axis
[03:55:07] <sebastian1> does anybody know how i can manipulate the behavior of the dots that appear in the preview of the axis gui
[03:56:48] <sebastian1> i tried to make changes in axis.py "redraw_dro(self):" but that had no effect
[08:52:23] <JT-Shop> snowing and raining at the same time
[08:54:26] <skunkworks> yeck - 2 inches here so far - should get 8-10 total
[08:54:29] <skunkworks> or so
[09:07:59] <pcw_home> Hmm nothing but internal server errors from the forum today
[09:08:46] <JT-Shop> seems to be working now
[09:12:09] <JT-Shop> 500 now
[09:18:46] <cradek> unfortunately I'm not seeing meaningful errors in the logs
[09:18:54] <cradek> is it a certain page that fails?
[09:20:07] <AR__> anyone want my 24k rpm spindle? http://www.ebay.com/itm/181090544664
[09:20:41] <r00t4rd3d> why you selling?
[09:20:57] <r00t4rd3d> are you giving up?
[09:21:11] <pcw_home> No (and its working now) just that any fetch has about a 20% chance of success
[09:21:57] <cradek> hmm
[09:24:31] <cradek> I turned on "Enable Debug Mode" and maybe I'll get a backtrace or something
[09:25:01] <cradek> the help for it says "Set Yes to enable debug mode." for which someone should be shot
[09:25:23] <pcw_home> and naturally its working fine n ow
[09:26:22] <cradek> yell when it breaks
[09:26:40] <cradek> it might be transient load on dreamhost or something...?
[09:26:44] <pcw_home> not quite fine:
[09:26:45] <pcw_home> Notice: Undefined variable: my in /home/emcboard/www.linuxcnc.org/templates/linuxcnc-float/index.php on line 25
[09:26:47] <cradek> would be nice if I got a real error message though.
[09:27:02] <cradek> oh, I guess that's what debugging does
[09:27:48] <cradek> I turned it back off
[09:28:55] <pcw_home> Thats a little more global than you want...
[09:30:13] <cradek> yes, quite obnoxious
[09:30:19] <cradek> also useless
[09:31:04] <uminded> I am new to linuxcnc but can I pass my gcode to the HAL layer without any GUI? (I'm on a headless system)
[09:31:17] <pcw_home> It might be load related (also had some of those coulpe day old forum emails last week)
[09:32:32] <cradek> uminded: if you don't want a user interface at all, check out jdi.py
[09:33:01] <cradek> but maybe describe in more detail what your goals are, for more ideas
[09:35:22] <uminded> cradek: Well that's a simple program, thanks. What module in the package is the gcode interperter inside?
[09:35:52] <cradek> task
[09:37:23] <uminded> and I am able to write a gcode interperter for that module? My software uses non-standard gcode and custom M codes
[09:37:58] <cradek> that's a very complicated question
[09:38:32] <cradek> need much more information for a meaningful answer
[09:39:00] <cradek> what kind of nonstandard gcodes? what kind of custom m codes? what do they need to do?
[09:39:10] <uminded> Indeed. I was interperting my gcode myself on ARM bare metal but fine tuning is quite difficult and I have resonance issues
[09:40:31] <uminded> I have M codes for storing and retrieving user settings from EEPROM (that will need to get ported to an XML file now) and several different PID controllers
[09:40:59] <AR_> M666
[09:41:05] <uminded> I was just going to write my own interpreter that interfaces with the HAL layer directly but if one already exists it would be nice to stay with standards
[09:41:13] <AR_> keeps crashing my machine
[09:41:57] <cradek> the way you're doing things seems very specific to your old hardware, and doesn't align with how linuxcnc works
[09:42:13] <cradek> your questions sound like the result of a kind of tunnel vision
[09:42:31] <cradek> what is your goal here? what kind of hardware do you want to make move?
[09:43:57] <uminded> Its very specific in house hardware, automated casting. Was run on old Z80 hardware and ported to newer ARM but is not very extensible or tuneable for maximum preformance
[09:45:18] <AR_> Z80 lol
[09:45:30] <cradek> linuxcnc usually works by directly controlling motor drives, with either position, velocity, or torque commands. for the latter two, it expects realtime position feedback. is there a place where you can interface to your hardware to allow that?
[09:45:57] <cradek> M codes controlling PID stuff etc sounds like you have special hardware that is no longer needed/appropriate if using linuxcnc
[09:48:25] <uminded> I have a box with GPIO and Xenomai ported and running. My drives use the simple STEP/DIR commands. The PID's where analog but are now bit banged as I2C PID controllers where a bit pricy
[09:52:07] <uminded> The reason I wanted to use linuxcnc is for the reverse kinematics, easy pulse generataion, and all the real time math out of my hair. If I need to write a userspace program to handle the I2C temperature inputs, PID and gcode interpertation its not the end of the world
[09:52:08] <cradek> what do you mean by PIDs?
[09:53:12] <cradek> what are your inputs and outputs? I see some outputs are positional step/dir. some inputs are temperature.
[09:53:18] <uminded> PID's for temperature control, bit banged output, I2C thermistor input
[09:53:58] <cradek> brb
[10:26:00] <Err> uminded: is your PID output a bang-bang binary output for a heating element of some kind based on the temperature inputs, or is it an analog output?
[10:37:06] <uminded> just simple on/off one a single pin. Was planning on writing a python script to pass the temperature values to HAL
[10:37:57] <uminded> Although as its only 100ms I can just as easily run the whole PID in python and echo one or zero to the pin in the /proc system
[11:00:23] <skunkworks> uminded, how is the temp sensor interfaced to emc?
[11:02:19] <uminded> nothing is at the moment, I can do it however works best. I was hoping to have a python script polling my I2C devices and putting the values into a HAL register so that all the control logic was handled in the one program. I just don't know if it is possible that
[11:04:47] <Err> uminded: yeah, that's what I was thinking - all that linuxcnc really needs to know is that the temperature is in-range, right? (like a lockout of some sort)
[11:07:31] <uminded> Err: Correct
[11:07:46] <R2E4_> +cradek: in the house?
[11:08:16] <R2E4_> +cradek: What did you do with the tach connnections?
[11:08:32] <cradek> off and on
[11:08:52] <cradek> I don't remember messing with them. they probably go right to the amps?
[11:09:06] <cradek> it's unusual for tachs to do anything else
[11:09:24] <R2E4_> yeah but that would =mean you had to keep the ifc boards also.
[11:09:56] <R2E4_> aNd did you send the encoders to the 7i77? What did the amp think about leaving those connections open?
[11:09:57] <cradek> I don't remember that. got a schematic online?
[11:10:17] <Loetmichel> re @ home
[11:10:18] <R2E4_> let me hunt one down
[11:10:18] <cradek> the encoders don't go to the amps
[11:11:21] <uminded> On a side issue I am having I can not get linuxcnc to cross compile for arm. it is always looking for Xenomai.h (which I have in /user/include) and even using --disable-x it still looks for them and fails
[11:11:26] <R2E4_> The encoders went to an fmdc board then ifc board and the ofc board connects to the amps.
[11:11:56] <cradek> that might be just a matter of connectors, I don't know
[11:12:14] <uminded> whenever i use --host with configure it can not find any of the libraries actually, readline, etc
[11:12:37] <R2E4_> The encoders would go to the 7i77 in the new scenario, but I dont know what to do with the other part.
[11:12:47] <R2E4_> I will try and find a schematic online.
[11:13:02] <cradek> it's not uncommon for a signal to pass through a board, unused, for mechanical/connector reasons
[11:13:13] <cradek> you've just got to patiently decipher that kind of thing
[11:14:06] <Err> unmI'm not sure that there's a RTLinux kernel for ARM
[11:14:10] <Err> er, uminded
[11:14:27] <R2E4_> yeah, I am studying it..... Trying to find someone who allready did the exact same thing. not having any luck though.
[11:14:46] <Err> uminded: and I'm not certain if you can run without RT extensions (although I'd love to hear that you can!)
[11:16:05] <R2E4_> A patch for linux-2.4.15-pre6-rmk2 is also included. First apply the normal ARM RTAI patches to this kernel, then the one in patch-linux-2.4.15-pre6-rmk2-rtai-newlxrt-arm.
[11:16:22] <R2E4_> seems that somneone is doing it.
[11:17:06] <Err> yeah, I just found where someone stuffed linuxcnc onto a raspberry pi (http://code.google.com/p/picnc/), so it at least works on one ARM11
[11:17:08] <cradek> I'm not sure linuxcnc still builds against a 2.4 kernel at all
[11:17:27] <cradek> but that doesn't mean they necessarily cross-compiled it, does it?
[11:17:37] <cradek> I don't know if cross-compiling works
[11:18:34] <Err> oh, good point - cross-compiling is always a punk
[11:20:43] <Err> looks like it can be cross-compiled, but they leaned heavily on the raspbian framework for the underneath magic (it was built in a chroot of the ARM root filesystem): http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?RaspbianXenomaiBuild
[11:20:57] <uminded> I have a running Xenomai-2.6.2.1 and I-Pipe system running on 3.4.32 kernel already
[11:21:54] <uminded> I have a crossng compiler for my arch but I do not have a working native compiler.
[11:22:15] <R2E4_> I found schematics for boss 6 but not 9 and it is cpmpletely different
[11:23:47] <ReadError> i know shift allows me to move the axis fast
[11:23:52] <ReadError> is there a "go slow" button?
[11:24:11] <jdh> don't hit shift
[11:24:16] <cradek> no, you have to move the slider
[11:24:40] <cradek> I think the keyboard shortcuts for jog speed adjust are ; '
[11:26:30] <JT-Shop> ReadError: a real neat thing to do is click on help quick reference
[11:27:06] <ReadError> oh
[11:27:32] <ReadError> well the problem being i have a wireless keyboard and cant see my display when im positioning it
[11:27:38] <ReadError> plus im not at the machine JT-Shop ;)
[11:27:43] <ReadError> just figured i would ask since im bored
[11:28:16] <JT-Shop> in that case http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/html/gui/axis.html#_keyboard_controls
[11:33:27] <r00t4rd3d> ReadError, do you have a tablet? vnc your screen
[11:33:50] <r00t4rd3d> even a phone would work
[11:33:59] <r00t4rd3d> small screen but...\
[11:34:36] <ReadError> yea i got an ipad
[11:34:51] <r00t4rd3d> i said a tablet not a piece of shit fruit
[11:34:53] <ReadError> sounds like a good job for my touchpad
[11:35:33] <r00t4rd3d> yeah, find a keyboard mouse sharing app
[11:35:44] <r00t4rd3d> i use sharekm on android
[11:38:10] <r00t4rd3d> ive used vnc on my iphone awhile ago so i know you can do that too but probably have to be jailbroke
[11:40:04] <r00t4rd3d> just dont rely on it for a estop or anything
[11:40:39] <uminded> I did autoreconf -fvi then "./configure --enable-simulator --without-x --build=x86_64-linux-gnu --host=arm-cortex_a8-linux-gnueabi" and it hangs on Xinerama.h and readline.h
[11:40:56] <ReadError> oh jeeze
[11:40:59] <ReadError> arm ?
[11:41:46] <r00t4rd3d> my guess would be are those 2 headers files for arm
[11:44:53] <r00t4rd3d> or are they the correct versions config is lookin for
[11:44:58] <R2E4_> http://www.irmtl.com/LinuxCNC/Schem1BP.pdf
[11:45:37] <R2E4_> After rotation, top left you see the encoder4s going into FMDC board then into IFC board. which in turn feeds the amp.
[11:45:49] <r00t4rd3d> uminded do you even have those header files?
[11:46:18] <r00t4rd3d> sudo updatedb
[11:46:26] <r00t4rd3d> locate Xinerama.h
[11:48:00] <R2E4_> also, the axxis enable is going to be a trick.
[11:53:32] <Err> uminded: oh, wait - do you mean you have Xenomai.h in your actual /usr/include?
[11:53:47] <Err> it will need to be in your cross-compile toolchain's include directory (which is almost certainly *not* /usr/include)
[11:56:29] <IchGuckLive> hi all
[11:57:48] <JesusAlos> hi+
[12:23:10] <IchGuckLive> B) sun has been out 10h today at 15deg C
[12:24:22] <L84Supper> we have had more snow here in the past week then all winter
[12:24:49] <IchGuckLive> keep some it will melt soon O.O
[12:24:51] <L84Supper> 15cm more by tomorrow
[12:25:26] <R2E4_> 5 volts enable axis.....
[12:26:04] <L84Supper> http://newbould.com/spinmastr.htm nice spindles
[12:26:05] <skunkworks> uminded, I used an arduino to get my temp sensor in to hal
[12:26:18] <skunkworks> (non realtime - but temp changes are slow for me)
[12:31:26] <uminded> I was googling and found that HAL2Arduino, my goal is to remove any of the external micros though. I want to find a solution to apply to many different machines.
[12:32:12] <uminded> Also HAL2Arduino just uses a python module to get the info from serial and report it to HAL, I will just do the same but use my onboard 12C/SPI bus
[12:32:34] <skunkworks> uminded, this was what used - so far very stable. http://emergent.unpythonic.net/01198594294
[12:34:21] <skunkworks> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-CdFd2Zakc
[12:35:14] <pfred1> has anyone here installed LinuxCNC on a Gentoo system?
[12:36:05] <skunkworks> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?EmcOnGentoo
[12:36:16] <uminded> I will yoink their python script for my i2c, thanks.
[12:36:24] <skunkworks> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Installing_LinuxCNC#On_Gentoo
[12:36:27] <pfred1> skunkworks thanks :)
[12:36:30] <uminded> Any ideas on getting the cross compile to work?
[12:36:48] <skunkworks> me? no. above my pay grade
[12:37:13] <pfred1> I kind of have done cross compiling but it was a long time ago
[12:37:15] <L84Supper> http://www.renishaw.com/en/tonic-resm-rotary-angle-encoder-system--10243 resolution to 1 nm
[12:37:24] <IchGuckLive> uminded: this is my 5 mashine arduino pendant http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5_4S24dW8w
[12:37:38] <pfred1> it took 3 weeks to figure it out then too
[12:37:50] <uminded> I talked to a dev in #autotools and they said cross compiling is not a high priority on the autotools mantanence list and didn't bother helping
[12:38:10] <pfred1> for me it was a dual clib system
[12:38:29] <IchGuckLive> uminded: it is easy python script
[12:38:45] <IchGuckLive> uminded: look into the vid
[12:39:32] <IchGuckLive> i use i2C inside for the buttons and spi to Glcd and serrial to hal
[12:39:43] <archivist> L84Supper, I always visit the Renishaw stand at shows when I can :)
[12:40:22] <L84Supper> archivist: their US office is nearby
[12:40:28] <pfred1> someone ought to include the date when these instructions were written
[12:40:39] <uminded> I'm probably going to combine my own. Load the gcode via my master script and it will interpret the special M codes and temperature readings and give the info to HAL. I also would like it to display some current working info so it can all be done with a python interface
[12:41:14] <IchGuckLive> yes
[12:41:22] <uminded> now that I know I can use linuxcnc I have to actually compile the darn thing...
[12:41:34] <IchGuckLive> no
[12:42:08] <IchGuckLive> put this into your ppa http://buildbot.linuxcnc.org/
[12:42:11] <pfred1> uminded there is the live image
[12:42:27] <IchGuckLive> uminded: what system are you on
[12:42:34] <uminded> not for armvt-a though
[12:42:42] <uminded> armv7-a**
[12:43:47] <Err> uminded: you said that those header files were in /usr/include - that's not where your cross-compiler should be looking for them, I don't think
[12:44:26] <Err> it should be looking in its include path, which is likely PREFIX/arm-linux-elf-blahblahblah/include/ or something like that
[12:44:47] <uminded> http://pastebin.com/vpFV4tZn
[12:45:27] <uminded> whats annoying is the only thing in Xenomai.h that is used is the function to center the splash screen lol
[12:46:10] <L84Supper> <1 arc second encoders + newbould spindles + AC servo = my 4-5th axis table for <$10K
[12:46:39] <IchGuckLive> 10K O.O
[12:47:10] <Err> uminded: so, if you really want to dig into autotools, you can look in config.log and try to parse out why it continues to search for Xinerama after X11 is found to be disabled
[12:47:40] <uminded> yay autotools..... said no one ever lol
[12:48:03] <L84Supper> IchGuckLive: http://tinyurl.com/bjkkx4t would be ~$45K
[12:48:23] <IchGuckLive> ;-(
[12:48:25] <andypugh> It's pretty, though.
[12:50:03] <pcw_home> andypugh: did you notice Avago has a new (well new to me) reflective encoder with index (index is in-track)
[12:50:34] <andypugh> No, though it sounds interesting.
[12:50:43] <andypugh> Is that missing-tooth index?
[12:50:51] <pcw_home> yes
[12:51:22] <uminded> Is their a listing of prerequisites for linuxcnc? I would like to build in a virtualbox one step at a time to solve my issues
[12:51:45] <pcw_home> though since the have a linear array sensor the normal quadrature is unaffected
[12:52:26] <IchGuckLive> uminded: all infos are on our wikipedia page
[12:52:38] <IchGuckLive> uminded: also read the integreader manual
[12:52:52] <andypugh> pcw_home: 3mm square too: http://www.avagotech.com/pages/en/motion_control_encoder_products/incremental_encoders/reflective_encoders/aedr-8500-102/
[12:53:23] <IchGuckLive> uminded: you can run in simulat mode on a nonreal system
[12:53:30] <pcw_home> Yes quite teensy
[12:55:11] <andypugh> 300 lpi.
[12:55:41] <andypugh> I have found the ones I have to be _really_ sensitive to the target shinyness. To the point of troublesomeness.
[12:58:23] <pcw_home> I have some commercial encoders built with the 2 channel part, the disk is a sheet of film with a shiny aluminum back plate
[12:59:13] <pcw_home> (film an aluminum are just clamped together at the hub, not glued)
[13:00:18] <andypugh> I have found in the past that black film was as shiny as white film, and nothing happened.
[13:00:47] <andypugh> Not with the EADR ones though, they find shiny steel to be as un-shiny as a hole.
[13:01:22] <AR_> use frosted glass and just polish the slits
[13:01:23] <pcw_home> probably need the aluminum reflector
[13:03:18] <pcw_home> what is that process for making shiny aluminum Alzak?
[13:08:53] <IchGuckLive> get 2 liqud sprays and spray a Mirror on it
[13:09:22] <IchGuckLive> works on all flat objects
[13:09:55] <andypugh> I need to get back to it. I _hope_ my last failure (months ago, I kind-of lost heart) was bad soldering.
[13:11:09] <IchGuckLive> by the way servo cables are they DIN a NORM or free to the manufacture
[13:11:20] <pcw_home> They kind of need a signal quality pin
[13:11:45] <andypugh> Yes, they just quietly fail to work, don't they?
[13:12:46] <pcw_home> yeah I notice the nicer SSI and BISS encoders have a encoder fault bit
[13:12:48] <andypugh> My spindle encoder is irritating me too. I have to tweak the opto distance every time I run the lathe. It would be great if the encoder module could export "counts per index" :-)
[13:13:16] <pcw_home> BISS ones can
[13:13:33] <IchGuckLive> im off BY
[13:13:40] <andypugh> I am bidding for a few real encoders on eBay (every one at 99p and no bids, in fact :-) so might go for the conventional belt-drive approach.
[13:14:03] <andypugh> Right! to the workshop!
[13:14:15] <pcw_home> a sealed encoder should be better
[13:17:27] <pfred1> andypugh is Batman
[13:18:47] <andypugh> ..and back. I remembered why I stopped last night, and I am not about to do that much editing with the lathe keyboard.
[13:19:28] <pfred1> andypugh you don't have one of those roll up rubber keyboards do you?
[13:19:43] <andypugh> No, its a stainless steel one. And some keys barely work.
[13:20:00] <pfred1> stainless steel?
[13:20:15] <pfred1> isn't that a bit much for a keyboard?
[13:20:42] <pfred1> I got one of those rubber roll up keyboards they are realy hard to type on
[13:21:10] <andypugh> One of these: http://www.directindustry.com/prod/devlin/panel-mount-industrial-keyboards-with-trackball-19875-843143.html
[13:21:57] <pfred1> andypugh have you tried washing it out?
[13:22:47] <pfred1> I just had this one all apart but it still has a little flakieness to it still
[13:23:20] <andypugh> It waterproof. The problem is that I _did_ dismantle it and it turns out that it needs to be assembled really carefully for the keys to work.
[13:23:28] <pfred1> ah
[13:24:35] <pfred1> I have a lot of old PCs and they need the old keyboards and mice and they are getting harder to find anymore
[13:25:56] <pfred1> I've wondered if it is possible to convert some of the USB models to the older PS/2
[13:26:38] <andypugh> They used to sell adaptors, I thought.
[13:27:01] <pfred1> well if it is just a matter of a dumb adapter then I could probably just change the wire
[13:27:14] <pfred1> unless there is some active circuitry in the adapter
[13:27:37] <pfred1> I've had stuff apart and inside it doesn't look a whole lot different to me
[13:27:52] <andypugh> I think that some keyboards are clever ebnough to emulate PS2. Though whther they still bother I don't know.
[13:27:57] <pfred1> this keyboard keeps on turning the Num Lock on by itself
[13:28:06] <pcw_home> I dont think so I think the ucontroller in the KB/Mouse senses the startup voltages and decides
[13:28:11] <andypugh> eBay is full of adapters for $2
[13:29:02] <pfred1> the controller in this keyboard is an epoxy blob on the PCB
[13:29:35] <andypugh> I suspect that they all contain the startup detect as a legacy thing. Why delete it?
[13:29:45] <pcw_home> I would expect most USB KB/mice o be able to do PS/2
[13:30:05] <pfred1> andypugh when I say it turns the numlock on i mean it does it all the time
[13:30:20] <pfred1> I turn it off then after a while it comes back on by itself
[13:30:35] <andypugh> So its broken. Throw it away
[13:31:08] <pfred1> yeah it really fritzed out on me a while back so I retired it but I don't have anything to replace it with right now
[13:31:29] <pfred1> ought oh it is starting up now it is typing characters
[13:31:35] <andypugh> Isn't that what we are saying? Buy a $2 adaptor and run USB keyboards
[13:31:59] <pfred1> but if it is just an adapter i should be able to just change the wire
[13:32:12] <andypugh> You probably filled the keylogger memory and it is calling home.
[13:32:45] <pfred1> there is one electrolytic cap on the PCB maybe it is shot?
[13:32:55] <pfred1> it looked OK but they can die and look OK
[13:50:23] <R2E4_> I think I will have to break down and purchase servo drivers.
[13:52:58] <cradek> why?
[13:56:00] <R2E4_> I cant figure this out.
[13:59:54] <cradek> then wouldn't you have 2 problems instead of 1?
[14:00:10] <Err> heh
[14:00:18] <R2E4_awy> Why 2?
[14:00:34] <archivist> you have to learn the new servos
[14:00:41] <cradek> then you'd have more servo drives you can't figure out
[14:00:51] <archivist> and have to pay for them
[14:01:01] <cradek> plus, more retrofit work to do, taking working drives out of the machine and replacing them with unknowns
[14:01:15] <cradek> so 4 problems if my count is right
[14:01:58] <archivist> far less risk to use the existing drivers
[14:02:09] <R2E4_awy> I can figure out how to connect them to mesa cards, this is documented.
[14:02:20] <pcw_home> Do you have the specifcations of the base servo drives? maybe all that interconnect stuff is un-needed
[14:02:52] <cradek> I sent him the drive technical documentation
[14:03:09] <R2E4_awy> Yes Cradek sent it to me
[14:03:45] <pcw_home> are they analog drives with tachometer feedback?
[14:03:56] <R2E4_awy> yes
[14:04:12] <skunkworks> I think once you get the machine......
[14:04:52] <R2E4_awy> uh no. dc servo motors
[14:05:21] <R2E4_awy> permanent magnet DC motors
[14:05:37] <pcw_home> thats standard for that vintage (usually with tachometers)
[14:05:54] <R2E4_awy> yes they have tachs
[14:06:02] <cradek> these use an extra brush pair in the motor to generate the tach signal
[14:06:54] <pcw_home> dual wound armature/2 commutators?
[14:06:57] <cradek> I don't remember any problem or anything weird getting these to work with the 7i33, except we changed a resistor on each amp for some tuning reason I forget.
[14:07:40] <cradek> pcw_home: not sure what the construction is, but there's no external tach, and 4 brushes at 90 deg per motor iirc
[14:07:54] <R2E4_awy> Did you go directly to the drives or use the FMDC or EAF's?
[14:08:10] <cradek> I think we took out pretty much every circuit board
[14:08:30] <cradek> I wish I remembered exactly, but it's been years
[14:08:55] <cradek> I just recall how it was the easiest retrofit ever, since we had full docs, and the machine worked beforehand, and nothing was weird
[14:09:16] <R2E4_awy> OK, the motors and the tach go directly into the drives.......
[14:09:18] <cradek> the "tuning reason" might be fixed in 2.5.2's pid now
[14:09:32] <R2E4_awy> The encoders go into FMDC which goes into the drives.
[14:09:42] <cradek> no, encoders don't go to the drives
[14:10:22] <pcw_home> maybe the FMDC just does differential/SE conversion or something
[14:12:21] <pcw_home> If they are analog velocity mode drives and you have encoders the rest can go
[14:12:23] <pcw_home> (servo power/estop etc should be able to stay unchanged)
[14:13:31] <cradek> yes we kept some of the estop chain which pulls in contactors to hook up the motors. we put the limit switches in estop and wired an override button for jogging off the switches
[14:14:06] <cradek> also estop triggers vfd stop, and vfd fault triggers estop
[14:14:29] <R2E4_awy> I see the estop going into drive power supply.
[14:14:34] <pcw_home> Does it have separate home and limit switches?
[14:14:35] <cradek> the control has a "reboot" pushbutton on the back/side and we used that for limit override
[14:14:43] <cradek> pcw_home: yes
[14:14:48] <pcw_home> nice
[14:15:16] <cradek> but NOT separate left/right limits, although the amps themselves can do directional inhibit
[14:15:29] <cradek> the two inhibits are wired together
[14:17:06] <cradek> welllll now that I think some more, Z might have 3 switches
[14:18:45] <L84Supper> http://www.physikinstrumente.com/en/products/prdetail.php?sortnr=700881 ~$60K, man I'm in the wrong business
[14:19:33] <L84Supper> 6 axis piezo hexapod
[14:19:54] <pcw_home> some of that may need to be rewired to suit the 7I77s active high inputs (+24 --> switch --> 7I77input)
[14:20:12] <R2E4_awy> http://irmtl.com/LinuxCNC/2181_001.pdf is the logic diagram
[14:24:02] <cradek> page 93 of the docs I sent you show the tach ("G") hooked right to the amp
[14:24:40] <pfred1> cradek sounds like rock and roll!
[14:24:57] <cradek> also, my machine had "optional motor contactor" as shown there
[14:25:08] <pfred1> cradek your machine goes to 11
[14:25:32] <cradek> I'd need a time machine to look at "my" machine
[14:26:08] <pfred1> cradek until it warms up some here I'd have to go back to the future to see mine
[14:26:44] <pfred1> cradek I just got a new PC to run it though :)
[14:47:44] <RaycisCharles> Why does #emc redirect to here?
[14:48:11] <cradek> EMC is the old name of linuxcnc
[14:50:05] <RaycisCharles> There is another EMC: www.emc.com
[14:50:29] <cradek> yeah, that's unrelated to linuxcnc
[14:50:38] <cradek> there's also an EMC zit cream
[14:50:44] <RaycisCharles> Wow.
[14:51:12] <RaycisCharles> Evangelical Methodist Church, an American Christian denomination
[14:51:21] <cradek> haha
[14:51:43] <RaycisCharles> "eMC (hip hop group), a hip hop group" <-- this is what I know.
[14:51:59] <cradek> http://www.emc2acne.com/how-emc2-works.html
[15:01:06] <FinboySlick> L84Supper: Well, if I had to make it with the kind of specs these guys show, I think it'd cost me more than 60k :P
[15:08:35] <L84Supper> FinboySlick: http://www.physikinstrumente.com/en/products/piezo/piezo_actuator_selection.php#unpackg it's mostly these
[15:10:18] <L84Supper> you make the stack crawl, like a millipede
[15:11:18] <FinboySlick> L84Supper: A bit like a stepper, but with physical engagement instead of just magnetic? (and linear)
[15:13:17] <L84Supper> FinboySlick: yes, since the piezo elements only flex by a few microns
[15:14:25] <FinboySlick> Pretty cool.
[15:17:09] <L84Supper> FinboySlick: http://www.physikinstrumente.com/en/products/linear_actuator/piezowalk_selection.php
[15:17:26] <FinboySlick> Yeah, was just looking at that page actually.
[15:17:32] <L84Supper> PiezoWalk
[15:18:50] <L84Supper> most of the price of the heaxapod is the controller
[15:20:53] <R2E4> .
[15:21:33] <FinboySlick> I really need to get off my butt and find someone with a larger mill to set mine straight.
[15:21:47] <FinboySlick> I have a bit of an ache to make stuff.
[15:22:36] <pfred1> FinboySlick you need your ways cut or something?
[15:22:41] <L84Supper> FinboySlick: is that the one that looked good at first but after the warranty was it you realized it was off?
[15:22:55] <L84Supper> it/up
[15:23:09] <FinboySlick> L84Supper: Yeah, the one.
[15:23:16] <FinboySlick> If it were straight,it would still be very good.
[15:23:24] <FinboySlick> It moves fast and smooth as silk.
[15:23:35] <FinboySlick> It's just not very cartesian and has no adjustments.
[15:24:38] <FinboySlick> pfred1: Technically, I need the support for my linear rails ground to be parallel and flat.
[15:25:10] <FinboySlick> And probably a bit of shimming to tram the head afterward.
[15:25:35] <FinboySlick> A well adjusted bridgeport would probably be fine for that kind of job.
[15:26:38] <FinboySlick> I just don't have access to one that would be in a decent-enough state to do so. The few that I know of around here are beat and not used by perfectionist-types.
[15:26:40] <pfred1> FinboySlick if Less Watts was still here he'd probably tell you to hand scrape it
[15:27:12] <FinboySlick> pfred1: That'd work for the flat part, but I have no frame of reference for the cartesian bits.
[15:27:41] <pfred1> FinboySlick by cartesian do you mean making it square?
[15:28:03] <FinboySlick> I think the only thing decently square on it is the X vs Y
[15:28:14] <FinboySlick> Z is very much off and it shifts along the motion.
[15:28:22] <FinboySlick> So it's not just a matter of tilting it right.
[15:28:50] <FinboySlick> I'm guessing the two rails aren't parallel.
[15:29:49] <FinboySlick> Maybe when I take it apart, I'll find dead chinese fauna under the rails and just fix it with a cleanup, but I kind of doubt it.
[15:30:13] <FinboySlick> I don't even have a good workplace to take it apart as it is.
[15:30:33] <FinboySlick> Or to use it properly for that matter, floor is a bit bouncy.
[15:30:38] <pfred1> when I took the gib out of my Chinese mill i couldn't believe it, thing looked like they finished it by leaving it in the driveweay to get run over by delivery trucks or something
[15:31:08] <FinboySlick> pfred1: The big irony is the inspection sheet on it.
[15:31:09] <pfred1> it was ah, a bit rough ...
[15:31:31] <pfred1> I guess it is that way to hold oil?
[15:32:26] <pfred1> FinboySlick Chinese machinery often needs a bit of tuning up
[15:32:28] <FinboySlick> pfred1: everything is below 0.02mm error on the sheet.
[15:32:29] <mrsun> the 0.866025 value for threads, where does that come from ? :)
[15:32:35] <mrsun> thread depth
[15:33:29] <pfred1> FinboySlick 0.02mm that is 0.001 of an inch I believe
[15:34:00] <FinboySlick> Actually, I probably forgot a zero.
[15:34:20] <FinboySlick> It's sort of banana-shaped, the middle of motion is fairly stable.
[15:34:28] <FinboySlick> Around the ends, it goes off.
[15:34:40] <pfred1> when I worked in a tool and die shop we never expected accuracy greater than 0.003 out of any cutting machines if we needed stuff closer we ground it
[15:35:10] <mrsun> 0.5 / tan(30)
[15:35:11] <mrsun> aparently
[15:35:13] <FinboySlick> pfred1: I'd sur love to take all the ways on my machine to a surface grinder.
[15:35:19] <FinboySlick> Well, the rail supports.
[15:35:26] <FinboySlick> It has linear bearings on all axis.
[15:35:26] <pfred1> we had a huge one
[15:35:42] <pfred1> thing ran a 3 foot diameter wheel or something
[15:35:59] <FinboySlick> pfred1: Quick way to do your nails ;)
[15:36:03] <pfred1> bed on he floor
[15:36:29] <pfred1> Stanley never let anyone get near it whenever i needed to use it I'd give the stuff to him to run
[15:36:51] <pfred1> I ran the stand up surface grinders though
[15:38:28] <FinboySlick> Heh, I wish I could bring my mill to Keith Fenner, he'd set it right... After scolding me for buying something chinese.
[15:38:37] <pfred1> FinboySlick if you get good at it all the real precision stuff is done by hand scraping
[15:39:40] <FinboySlick> pfred1: I don't need sub-micron precision, but I'd like to be able to take my indicator to a hole I just drilled and be zeroed.
[15:39:55] <FinboySlick> As it is now, just lifting the head far enough to insert the indicator throws me off.
[15:40:44] <pfred1> just torquing the bolts that hold the upright on my mill throws it out of whack
[15:41:06] <pfred1> it isn't trammed perfectly good enough though
[15:41:08] <FinboySlick> It'll move mine a bit, but not enough to set it right.
[15:44:24] <FinboySlick> pfred1: And setting the column kinda-straight gets the tramming even further off.
[15:45:12] <FinboySlick> And tram can't be adjusted, the spindle is bolted solid and pinned. I can shim one direction but not the other.
[15:47:03] <pfred1> FinboySlick is the head and spindle fixed on your machine like a vertical mill?
[15:48:37] <FinboySlick> pfred1: Yes. http://www.syilamerica.com/machine_x5speed.php
[15:50:07] <pfred1> it is like a bench top mill except the whole head goes up and down on rails
[15:50:29] <FinboySlick> pfred1: There's actually a carriage behind it so it is two parts.
[15:50:40] <FinboySlick> Removing the pins and inserting a shim, I could technically tram it.
[15:50:48] <pfred1> the head goes back and forth too?
[15:50:58] <FinboySlick> pfred1: No.
[15:51:07] <FinboySlick> This is simple 3 axis motion.
[15:51:28] <Jymmm> Fucking Monsanto... http://rt.com/usa/monsanto-farmers-tobacco-use-809/ and http://www.nationofchange.org/warning-major-supplements-openly-contain-gmo-vitamin-sources-1362500475
[15:51:30] <FinboySlick> But the bearings aren't bolted straight to the head, there's a plate for the bearings and the head is bolted onto that plate.
[15:52:28] <pfred1> FinboySlick it is hard to find a good turnkey machine that size
[15:52:52] <FinboySlick> Jymmm: The food you ate to conjure up the energy to complaint is patented to Monsanto, pay up or see your stomach pumped.
[15:53:49] <Jymmm> FinboySlick: Heh, no shit huh. They've done worse
[15:53:54] <FinboySlick> pfred1: Yeah. Their canadian salesguy is very nice, but obviously, he's a salesperson.
[15:54:34] <pfred1> if the machine is not in spec I'd say it is defective
[15:54:37] <FinboySlick> Jymmm: I know what would fix the world: More lawyers ;)
[15:54:55] <pfred1> FinboySlick why is it your problem to fix it?
[15:55:11] <FinboySlick> pfred1: Warranty is expired.
[15:55:15] <pfred1> oh
[15:55:20] <FinboySlick> And it's a heck of a ride to ship it back.
[15:55:27] <FinboySlick> Canada is a big place.
[15:55:30] <Jymmm> FinboySlick: An easier solution would be a few carefully placed rounds
[15:57:45] <pfred1> FinboySlick it does appear to be marketed as a precision machine
[15:57:55] <FinboySlick> Indeed it does.
[15:58:25] <FinboySlick> It'd just cost me more than a new one to go the 'fix it for me' route.
[15:58:45] <FinboySlick> It's good steel, just not shaped properly.
[15:59:13] <FinboySlick> It's like economics, nobody cares about doing it as much as the person who owns it.
[15:59:31] <FinboySlick> :s/as much/as well/
[16:00:31] <pfred1> FinboySlick I'm thinking if you measured aspects of it yourself you may come across what needs to be refined
[16:00:42] <FinboySlick> pfred1: I did.
[16:01:04] <FinboySlick> I just need a good workplace and a machine straight (and big) enough to use as a reference.
[16:01:04] <pfred1> is it the plate that holds the head?
[16:01:16] <FinboySlick> pfred1: It's every rail support.
[16:01:28] <FinboySlick> They all have error that I consider unacceptable.
[16:01:57] <pfred1> was just a bad day at the factory was it?
[16:02:07] <FinboySlick> Probably.
[16:02:24] <FinboySlick> From that perspective, I can't really blame them.
[16:02:42] <FinboySlick> I don't expect the poor guys who made it to have a very motivating work environment.
[16:02:42] <pfred1> I can I hate when stuff causes me grief
[16:03:06] <pfred1> it seems my life is consumed by cleaning up messes
[16:03:37] <pfred1> sometimes i don't mind it but whe nI pay full price then it bugs me
[16:03:47] <FinboySlick> Likewise.
[16:03:56] <FinboySlick> But I've cut my losses.
[16:04:49] <FinboySlick> I'd like to buy a router table. I could probably use it as a reference to fix the mill.
[16:05:56] <pfred1> I would think you'd need a surface plate at the very least to begin to do that
[16:06:27] <FinboySlick> It's mostly just to measure.
[16:07:08] <FinboySlick> If I can get a reliable measurement over the rail support surfaces, I should be able to do an okay job.
[16:07:32] <DJ9DJ> gn8
[16:08:03] <pfred1> FinboySlick you can't do that with a straight edge?
[16:08:19] <FinboySlick> I'll use that too.
[16:08:50] <FinboySlick> But I need a reliable way to sweep both rail supports to make sure they're parallel.
[16:09:43] <pfred1> what were you planning on making on that machine?
[16:09:53] <pfred1> any jobs in particular?
[16:10:08] <FinboySlick> Mostly just playing with it.
[16:10:52] <FinboySlick> Learning to cut things with relatively well and then giving shape to my fairly decent CAD skills.
[16:11:20] <FinboySlick> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8Nz5l0qiD0
[16:11:30] <L84Supper> http://www.pyramidgranite.com/pages/vibration_dampening_systems.html anyone use them before?
[16:11:59] <FinboySlick> pfred1: Made this for a friend who's central heating system impeller wore out.
[16:12:30] <pfred1> Teflon?
[16:12:41] <FinboySlick> Nylon.
[16:13:25] <FinboySlick> Pretty sure anyway.
[16:13:38] <FinboySlick> It's from a bag of scraps.
[16:14:03] <pfred1> Nylon is nice scraps HDPE is the cheap stuff
[16:14:28] <FinboySlick> Despite not being that straight, it spins very nicely.
[16:14:59] <FinboySlick> And I made two since the weight imballance is likely to make it wear out relatively quick.
[16:14:59] <pfred1> there has to be a way to tram it
[16:15:12] <FinboySlick> tram is just one of the issues.
[16:15:36] <FinboySlick> If I drill a hole and move the bit 3 inches above the hole, the bit is no longer over the hole.
[16:15:42] <FinboySlick> Z is off.
[16:15:56] <FinboySlick> And it's not equally off on both Z rails.
[16:16:07] <FinboySlick> So it kind of shifts sideways.
[16:17:15] <FinboySlick> We're talking a couple thou here, but it makes lining anything up with the tool a nightmare.
[16:19:41] <andypugh> That's why I gave up on my mill/lathe and bought a proper machine made by folk with a clue, in Halifax.
[16:19:57] <FinboySlick> andypugh: Halifax canada?
[16:20:06] <andypugh> No, the real one
[16:20:21] <pfred1> andypugh you gave up on your mill lathe?
[16:20:35] <andypugh> pretty much, yes.
[16:20:40] <pfred1> wow
[16:20:59] <pfred1> there is nothing quite like the big iron
[16:21:03] <andypugh> I use it as a lathe, but once the proper mill is going I will get a real lathe too.
[16:21:09] <FinboySlick> I wonder if I could sell mine :P I wouldn't really wish it on anyone.
[16:21:37] <andypugh> I reckon some idiot will probably pay good money for mine. It's almost famous :-)
[16:21:39] <pfred1> at some point you begin to realize it is all about the mass
[16:22:00] <andypugh> And, to be honest, for model engineering it's probably perfectly fine.
[16:22:11] <pfred1> I don't care how precision you make a little machine if it doesn't have the weight it is going to chatter
[16:22:42] <FinboySlick> pfred1: Part of why I went high-speed spindle on mine.
[16:23:08] <pfred1> well when you get into milling hard materials high speed isn't where it is at
[16:23:41] <pfred1> once you step up to mild steel it is a whole new ball game
[16:23:43] <FinboySlick> pfred1: If your cutter is small enough.
[16:24:35] <pfred1> up until then though you can run fast
[16:25:53] <pfred1> I have a 2" shell mill I run on my machine at 200 RPM
[16:26:02] <pfred1> works good!
[16:26:27] <FinboySlick> gottago
[16:26:58] <pfred1> andypugh I've seen videos of you doing awesome stuff on your mill/lathe
[16:27:30] <andypugh> I want to do awsomer though :-)
[16:27:53] <andypugh> (Mainly 6DP gears for a friend)
[16:28:01] <pfred1> I like to say you can do small work on big machines but it is tough to do big work on small machines
[16:29:31] <andypugh> My new machine doesn't actually have a larger work envelope. But it does have a much bigger table.
[16:32:25] <pfred1> well your lathe bed did make for a large X axis
[16:33:30] <pfred1> this thing is making me sea sick http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28lRTAG6v8I
[16:57:22] <alex_joni> https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/7104734720/h22485276/
[17:09:13] <L84Supper> has tjtr33 been around lately?
[17:11:17] <Jymmm> Dont know if yoou guys have seen/heard this yet, that is SO fucked up... http://news.yahoo.com/calif-woman-dies-nurse-refuses-cpr-134439843.html
[17:11:40] <L84Supper> it's been all over the news
[17:13:16] <micges> Jymmm: here on the other side of globe was simmilar situation few days ago :|
[17:13:30] <Jymmm> Residents are required to sign. WTF
[17:13:47] <Jymmm> micges: WTH is wrong with these people?!
[17:14:40] <micges> stupidity and money
[17:15:13] <Jymmm> micges: understatement
[17:17:38] <micges> I know
[17:34:23] <tjtr33> L84Supper, hello
[17:39:03] <Jymmm> micges: btw, where's "here" ?
[17:39:11] <micges> Poland
[17:39:16] <Jymmm> ah
[17:44:31] <alex_joni> night all
[17:44:41] <Jymmm> alex_joni: Night pooky!
[17:45:37] <alex_joni> it's actually "Pooky night" in Ireland
[17:45:54] <Jymmm> lol, I have no idea what that means
[17:46:05] <micges> night
[17:47:02] <alex_joni> Jymmm: alternative name for halloween
[17:47:13] <Jymmm> Ah, gotcha!
[17:48:17] <andypugh> Pooky was a flying rabbit in my sisters' books when I was little.
[17:49:04] <andypugh> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Pookie-Ivy-Wallace/dp/0001983776
[17:52:39] <AR_> only 2 hours left
[17:52:40] <AR_> http://www.ebay.com/itm/181090544664
[17:53:21] <Valen> USA only
[17:53:26] <Valen> and an xlr connector?
[17:53:37] <AR_> i dunno it's chinese spindle
[17:53:39] <Valen> ahh
[17:53:43] <Valen> yeah just noticed that
[17:53:46] <AR_> lol
[17:53:48] <Valen> i thaught it said 8kw
[17:54:02] <Valen> that doesn't seem that special then?
[17:54:07] <AR_> nope not really
[17:55:35] <AR_> wtf
[17:55:41] <AR_> cnczone got a new layout
[17:55:45] <AR_> looks horrible
[18:06:16] <r00t4rd3d> lol ya
[18:06:22] <r00t4rd3d> not many people are liking it
[18:32:52] <ReadError> r00t4rd3d, the collets are nice, ReadError approved
[18:42:52] <L84Supper> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQKieek9Jrg <0,0005 mm spindle runout
[18:44:01] <Valen> measuring that would be interesting
[18:46:13] <L84Supper> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4vsJhcx8YM Climb grinding without a motor
[18:47:38] <syyl> ah
[18:47:43] <syyl> a mahr supramess
[18:47:46] <syyl> fine piece!
[18:51:12] <andypugh> I should get my lady friend to steal some for me. She works at Mahr.
[18:52:05] <syyl> :o
[18:57:55] <JT-Shop> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cawk2cMTnGo
[21:19:14] <L84Supper> http://www.hirox-usa.com/library/material/blade_50-400x.html the zoom and depth of field is amazing
[21:22:26] <Tom_itx> makes it look rather cruddy and dull ;)
[21:23:39] <L84Supper> http://www.hirox-usa.com/library/electronics/CD_5000x.html you can see the bits on a CD
[21:24:12] <Tom_itx> heh
[21:24:36] <L84Supper> track spacing is 1.6um center tp center
[21:24:47] <L84Supper> the pits are 0.5um wide
[21:25:53] <Tom_itx> i wonder what the 'smudges' are in lower center
[21:37:22] <tjtr33> when andypugh returns , someone point him to the gear & hob movies at hirox
[21:39:34] <L84Supper> http://www.hirox-usa.com/library/machine/microgear_50-400x.html
[21:39:46] <L84Supper> http://www.hirox-usa.com/library/machine/hob_50-400.html
[21:40:27] <L84Supper> http://www.hirox-usa.com/library/machine.html the whole page
[21:42:15] <L84Supper> we'll be printing metals parts that size soon really fast
[22:18:21] <tjb1> https://www.dropbox.com/s/sl62bjaevbqnuqg/2013-03-05%2023.02.26.jpg?m
[22:25:47] <r00t4rd3d> http://i.imgur.com/h2wfGpu.jpg
[23:58:29] <r00t4rd3d> figured out how to do the wood grain look I think
[23:58:29] <r00t4rd3d> http://i.imgur.com/dko3IZi.jpg