Back
[00:00:01] <r00t4rd3d> the 3.8 rtai stuff
[00:03:44] <pfred1> so far I can't say I'm completely sold on the 3.X linux kernel version from what I've used of it
[00:04:33] <pfred1> but I've only used the canned kernel off of Mint 14 which is a steaming pile so far
[01:33:27] <Loetmichel> moin
[01:33:59] <Loetmichel> ups... mornin' !
[01:34:45] <pfred1> hi
[01:34:55] <pfred1> I'm all excited I got a new PC
[01:35:28] * nevyn was there.. then uefi...
[01:36:12] <pfred1> well it is new to me it isn't a new PC though it is from 2007
[01:36:36] <pfred1> but hey I only paid $5 for it so
[01:38:02] <nevyn> YAY!
[01:38:13] <pfred1> now i see why people hated vista so much
[01:38:19] <Valen> rofl
[01:38:54] <pfred1> this machine came with vista on it and I didn't think it was that god awful but this other one it is I mean there has to be something seriously wrong with it
[01:39:00] <Valen> (18:23:06) Valen: so, my super squeezy design is too small for 805's
[01:39:00] <Valen> (18:23:18) Valen: practically speaking how hard is it to use 402s?
[01:39:00] <Valen> (18:23:40) Valen: with mask for solder paste, do routed boards still work?
[01:39:12] <nevyn> oh man.. wait untill you see win8
[01:39:17] <Valen> its slow as crap
[01:39:24] <pfred1> I saw win8 at best buy
[01:39:28] <Valen> UAC sucks
[01:39:39] <nevyn> Valen: I know someone who does all their stuff in 0402 he's mad
[01:39:54] <Valen> nevyn: hrm?
[01:39:56] <nevyn> Valen: it was nessicary for the geometry of a particular rf bandpass filter to work.
[01:40:09] <Valen> i just have teensy space requirements
[01:40:19] <nevyn> how teensy?
[01:40:21] <pfred1> buy a bigger place
[01:40:26] <Valen> 20 components or so need to fit into 10mm x 15mm
[01:40:40] <nevyn> how many layers?
[01:40:42] <nevyn> 4?
[01:40:45] <nevyn> or just 2?
[01:40:49] <Valen> undefined at this stage
[01:40:56] <Valen> as many as are needed ;->
[01:41:13] <Valen> the layout with 805's is fairly simple it looks like it'll almost be one
[01:41:16] <pfred1> I don't do that high frequency stuff that is all touchy
[01:41:36] <pfred1> or try to make stuff so small it is hard for me to work with
[01:41:42] <Valen> the datasheet said the bypass cap needed to be within 20mm, DONE! lol
[01:41:44] <nevyn> so 402's by hand (for prototypes) is doable you really do want to have a good magnifier or preferably binocular microscope.
[01:42:12] <pfred1> when you get to be my age you'll need all of that just t oread the newspaper
[01:42:23] <nevyn> and at your part counts it shouldn't be too insane..
[01:42:26] <Valen> I was hoping to make the boards by hand in production
[01:42:40] <Valen> around 100 every 6 months or so
[01:42:56] <nevyn> not worth your sanity imho but doable.
[01:43:14] <Valen> otherwise its going to be using the mill and a sucker and some fancy pants G Code lol
[01:43:23] <nevyn> thaty's only placing 200 parts under a scope (~ 4hrs work based on my friends workrate)
[01:43:31] <Valen> how much easier are 603's?
[01:43:51] <Valen> 2000 parts for 100 boards with 20 components to a board
[01:43:57] <Valen> 805's are easy to do
[01:44:01] <nevyn> sure.
[01:44:07] <nevyn> 402's really arn't
[01:44:12] <pfred1> I assembled electronics at a board house for a while the works is pretty dull
[01:44:35] <nevyn> I've done 0804 and 1206 by hand with an iron.
[01:44:54] <nevyn> I wouldn't do 0402 but I've seen hand rework with an iron of 0402
[01:44:55] <Valen> frying pan works well for soldering ;->
[01:45:09] <nevyn> paste + fryingpan seems to be ok.
[01:45:19] <nevyn> turn it off once the board hits the reflow temp
[01:45:30] <nevyn> and let the thermal mass sort it out.
[01:45:31] <Valen> we do it on a gas stove
[01:45:39] <Valen> use a sheet of Al and sit the board on that
[01:46:12] <nevyn> we've had very limited success with toaster oven's
[01:46:16] <nevyn> in our hackerspace.
[01:46:48] <pfred1> roasting and toasting semiconductors just seems wrong to me
[01:46:50] <Valen> somebody on ebay has them cheap
[01:47:16] <pfred1> then again when my old boss told me to load a dishwasher up with PCBs we'd made i thought he was pulling my leg
[01:47:17] <nevyn> pfred1: how do you think it's done professionally?
[01:47:32] <nevyn> no caustic tho.. just on HOT.
[01:48:11] <pfred1> nevyn I don't know I don't do SMD on principal
[01:48:31] <pfred1> through hole or nothing!
[01:48:59] <nevyn> the problem with that is lots of interesting parts arn't availible in through hole anymore
[01:49:07] <archivist> my last production qty was through hole :)
[01:49:11] <nevyn> plus drilling fiberglass is a pain in the ass.
[01:49:19] <pfred1> the way I look at it is plenty of interesting parts still are
[01:49:27] <pfred1> nah i have a nice little drill press
[01:49:42] <pfred1> does 5,000 RPM
[01:50:05] <Valen> pfred doesn't want one of these then
[01:50:08] <nevyn> lots of sensors particularly are only SMD
[01:50:21] <nevyn> as well as lots of SOC's
[01:50:27] <Valen> (13:03:02) Valen:
http://www.engadget.com/2013/02/27/freescale-worlds-smallest-arm-powered-microcontroller/
[01:50:28] <Valen> (13:03:11) Valen: 1.9 x 2.00 x 0.56 millimeter
[01:50:28] <Valen> (13:03:19) Valen: A 48 MHz ARM Cortex-M0+
[01:50:42] <Valen> BGA package
[01:50:57] <pfred1> I'll leave that to the kids
[01:51:14] <Valen> I'm waiting for them to dump PCB's
[01:51:30] <Valen> you just get a bunch of wafer bits an ultrasonic welder and some gold wire
[01:51:37] <Valen> add epoxy when you're done
[01:51:39] <nevyn> BGA?
[01:51:46] <pfred1> ball grid array
[01:51:47] <nevyn> or bloby?
[01:52:19] <pfred1> nah DIP chips are what i like
[01:52:30] <nevyn> heh there was an interesting blog post by bunnie about the usb drives handed out at LCA
[01:52:34] <pfred1> I can use them in my breadboard
[01:52:51] <nevyn> http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=2946
[01:53:54] <pfred1> man I communed with my thrift store PC today
[01:56:04] * nevyn feels slightly stalked...
[01:56:26] <pfred1> don't flatter yourself
[01:56:29] * Valen hopes its a hot psyco chick
[01:56:57] <Valen> (i figure if your being stalked, odds are its a psyco anyway, so it might as well be a hot chick)
[01:57:10] <pfred1> all hot chicks are psychos
[01:57:12] <nevyn> maybe that's what the p stands for...
[01:57:24] <nevyn> hence the hot/crazy scale. ;)
[01:57:44] <Valen> nevyn: thats what daddy issues are for
[01:57:49] <pfred1> they know they'll find some guy that'll put up with their crap
[01:58:34] <Loetmichel> hrhr
[01:58:52] <Valen> also the definitive hot/crazy scale is more of a reference, the Vicky Mendoza Diagonal being the dividing line
[02:02:14] <DJ9DJ> moin
[07:58:07] <r00t4rd3d> http://www.android-x86.org/releases/build-20130228
[08:07:16] <mk0_error> why the heck does it exist?
[08:08:28] <r00t4rd3d> cause android is awesome
[08:11:30] <r00t4rd3d> would be cool to have linuxcnc run off a android livecd or usb stick
[08:18:28] <Jymmm> linuxcnc written in java?
[08:21:24] <Jymmm> r00t4rd3d: you are going to have to brush up on your java skills
[08:35:00] <r00t4rd3d> gonna runs
[08:35:05] <r00t4rd3d> err
[08:35:11] <r00t4rd3d> gonna see how it runs
[08:46:43] <L84Supper> RT-Java
[08:48:08] <Jymmm> Since Android sandboxes everything, not sure how that could come about.
[08:52:53] <ler_hydra> heyo! Long time since I've been here on the IRC channel. A quick question, I've been looking for PWM servo amplifiers without finding anything that I found really good. Does anyone here know of a decent amplifier? (I've looked at the pico systems amplifier, as listed on the wiki, but I didn't really get a good feeling by just seeing photos and a few sentences about it)
[09:14:48] <JT-Shop> ler_hydra: Jon (Pico) is often on here and gives great support on the forum
[09:16:11] <ler_hydra> JT-Shop, ok, thanks! I'll check out the forum as well =)
[09:28:05] <ler_hydra> on another note, does anyone know what the current status of constant surface speed for lathes is? cradek maybe?
[09:30:42] <JT-Shop> CSS has been working for a long long time
[09:33:46] <ler_hydra> haha, alright. Last time I was here that was one of the upcoming features, then again that was around 4-5 years ago... I'm guessing that just an encoder and a spindle control output are enough? (with some PWM output)
[09:35:15] <JT-Shop> some spindle examples
http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/html/examples/spindle.html
[09:37:21] <ler_hydra> thanks, I feel really silly now!
[09:37:28] <ler_hydra> ;)
[10:35:32] <JesusAlos> hi
[10:39:34] <tjb1> hello
[10:40:59] <jy76> hi
[10:41:31] <JesusAlos> I found a bug in linuxcnc 2.5
[10:42:08] <JesusAlos> when change the grid while execute program
[10:42:32] <JesusAlos> it close linuxcnc
[10:43:26] <JesusAlos> and generate this error
http://pastebin.com/6JKnn4qC
[10:58:03] <tjtr33> L84Supper: I've used these, each unit hand worked and tested at works, excellent worms and heidenhain encoders
http://www.mmkmatsumoto.com/mdw/
[10:58:26] <tjtr33> us contact/tech is in cincinatti
[11:00:12] <ler_hydra> jepler, I saw your PWM servo controller (etch CNC), looks nice! I'm toying with the idea of designing a general-purpose H-bridge (for, among other things, driving servos for linuxcnc). What are the limitations of the design you've used?
[11:00:49] <ler_hydra> Is it primary the motor speed, so that base thread can keep up with the encoder count? Or something else?
[11:02:36] <cradek> ler_hydra: if you're running it with parport pwm, your update frequency is so low that you'll only get 10ish useful magnitudes
[11:02:55] <ler_hydra> cradek, magnitudes? Of power level?
[11:02:58] <cradek> yeah
[11:03:19] <ler_hydra> oh, heh, 3.5 bit PWM depth sounds sort of so-so
[11:03:25] <cradek> and they're torque levels, not velocity, so they don't even work linearly
[11:03:31] <ler_hydra> exactly
[11:03:47] <cradek> you can use pdm to help a bit, but still, it's lousy
[11:04:03] <ler_hydra> or well, nonlinear torque, since parport PWM is duty cycle to the bridge which drives applied voltage
[11:04:14] <cradek> and polling the encoder lines is quite limited too
[11:04:17] <ler_hydra> hmm, which other methods are there to drive a servo amplifer?
[11:04:31] <L84Supper> tjtr33: Submersible, and Stainless Steel with electrical isolation, interesting
[11:04:32] <cradek> hardware pwm or hardware dac
[11:04:42] <ler_hydra> Is there support for some data (serial or parallel) transmission protocoll?
[11:04:53] <tjtr33> L84Supper, we got trunnions from them
[11:05:18] <L84Supper> tjtr33: my maximum load is 3Kg :)
[11:05:33] <cradek> each hardware driver does its own thing. some use EPP, some use port-mapped IO, some use SPI, etc etc.
[11:05:55] <tjtr33> L84Supper, look at off the shelf stuff from Hirschmann ( edm tooling ) for small payloads
[11:06:09] <cradek> heck I think some new stuff uses realtime ethernet packets
[11:06:16] <ler_hydra> right, I'm toying with the idea of rolling my own controller hardware with an embedded microprocessor taking care of PWM and encoder counts
[11:06:53] <cradek> you're sure not the first one to try that. I notice all the pros use FPGAs instead of microcontrollers.
[11:07:16] <L84Supper> tjtr33: and they are local
[11:07:20] <ler_hydra> yeah, I remember jepler's project (IIRC it was called pluto-p )
[11:07:56] <cradek> have you seen
http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Emc2HardwareDesign
[11:08:35] <ler_hydra> a 4000 count encoder at 3000 rpm does give counts at 200khz, which is starting to get pretty high for a software based system, that only gives me 100 cycles at 20MHz
[11:08:37] <cradek> yeah pluto-p still works except the hardware is unfortunately crap
[11:08:48] <ler_hydra> overheating?
[11:09:14] <cradek> don't forget you not only have to count at that rate, you have to periodically communicate with your host, without losing count, too
[11:09:26] <ler_hydra> yeah, exactly
[11:10:02] <tjtr33> L84Supper, tell Pete Knowles Hiya from tomp
http://www.hirschmannusa.com/PDF/H100ABR.NC.pdf
[11:10:03] <ler_hydra> I'm really just toying around with the idea, but I was considering a low-cost device with one uP per amplifier
[11:10:19] <cradek> I think it doesn't overheat - it works with very few parports - something about missing pullups/pulldowns? in summary, hardware made too cheaply and/or carelessly.
[11:10:21] <ler_hydra> so I "only" need to take care of one encoder and one H-bridge
[11:10:33] <ler_hydra> cradek, aww... that's too bad =(
[11:12:14] <ler_hydra> cradek, just for playing around with the thought, what's the "best" (from EMC's point of view) method of communicating data to/from external digital hardware? (I suppose I could duplicate parts of Jepler's pluto-P interface)
[11:12:29] <ler_hydra> (under the assumption of working over the parport)
[11:13:31] <cradek> IMO, a pci card
[11:13:46] <cradek> have you priced the mesa 5i25?
[11:14:30] <cradek> I think it's silly to make more EPP devices today. that ship really has sailed.
[11:14:31] <ler_hydra> hmm, I haven't honestly looked at them at all. I'd still need some power amplification though
[11:15:05] <cradek> sure, you could concentrate on the power part and not reinvent the wheel (and certainly not reinvent the square wheel)
[11:15:10] <ler_hydra> I know what you mean, it really reeks of designing for hardware thats vanishing fast
[11:15:31] <L84Supper> tjtr33: i was just looking at the H-80
[11:16:08] <cradek> the cheapest possible "power part" for simple/small servo setups would be a neat thing to have
[11:16:22] <ler_hydra> cradek, do you happen to remember a ballpark figure of cost for a 5i25?
[11:16:44] <L84Supper> tjtr33: whats the clearance around the rotary table, we need to center a part 370 x 300mm
[11:16:45] <cradek> no, but mesanet.com has a price list
[11:16:48] <ler_hydra> yeah, something like your driver but for more current and voltage
[11:17:06] <cradek> my driver? I used an L298 for my toy lathe
[11:17:13] <cradek> it's silly but it does actually work
[11:17:45] <ler_hydra> heh, that's pretty cute though
[11:17:57] <ler_hydra> 89USD for a 5i25 board, that's not bad at all
[11:18:00] <archivist> toy...a bit big for some of my parts
[11:18:41] <ler_hydra> and 160USD for their breakout board with DACs and encoder inputs
[11:19:13] <cradek> if you use pwm, you don't want or need dacs
[11:19:24] <L84Supper> whats the lowest cost method to build a 3 axis table with only 1.5" max of travel x,y,z and 0.05" accuracy
[11:19:52] <ler_hydra> yeah, just a bare-bones breakout would be the best for that
[11:20:01] <ler_hydra> well that's definitely one option
[11:20:06] <tjtr33> L84Supper, we had custom made, MMK is good, but expensive. I had a 24" cubic volume originating at TDC, after my fixture clamped to trunnion
[11:20:16] <L84Supper> was thinking about making it all from plastic
[11:20:46] <tjtr33> L84Supper, production or prototype?
[11:21:01] <L84Supper> tjtr33: some like Haas are ~$50K for the range of travel + clearance but the loads are for something 100x what I need
[11:21:38] <L84Supper> tjtr33: production, was thinking about printing it all with SLA
[11:22:01] <L84Supper> tjtr33: 2 different projects by the way :)
[11:22:45] <tjtr33> L84Supper, submerged or maybe inverted over a tank? dunno, is that why you looked at pi's hexapod?
[11:23:09] <ler_hydra> is the parport too slow for effective serial data transfer? When toying around with the idea I was thinking about making it useful for many other embedded situations, so an SPI-driven H-bridge board with encoder inputs would be a pretty handy little thing. IIRC a base thread is around 40µS, and the servo thread is around 1ms? If so I would guess I can get 25 pin changes per servo thread, IE about 3 bytes of data. That would seem like en
[11:23:09] <ler_hydra> ough to transfer a PWM setpoint and the number of encoder counts since the last read, right?
[11:23:12] <L84Supper> tjtr33: somebody else posted the hexapod
[11:23:45] <L84Supper> tjtr33: I'm just looking at trunion + rotary table
[11:23:57] <ler_hydra> Actually, I have more than that, I'd have around 3 tx bytes and 3 rx bytes
[11:24:50] <tjtr33> L84Supper, then for small and precise, the edm tooling mfctrs are good Erowa Hirschmann 3R ( and all the companies the Geo Fischer bought up )
[11:37:24] <ler_hydra> cradek, bbl, if you're around (and you're up for more newbie questions) I'd enjoy discussing a little more
[11:37:52] <cradek> ler_hydra: did you see that link to the hardware design wiki page?
[11:38:32] <ler_hydra> cradek, uh,
http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Emc2HardwareDesign <- that one?
[11:39:01] <cradek> yeah
[11:39:58] <ler_hydra> yep, mostly I was wondering becuase I'd like to have a robust and powerful H-bridge board in my back pocket for whatever application I could need to use one, and for other applications a serial data interface would be useful
[11:40:23] <ler_hydra> so I'd need to check if (for simplicity's sake) a parport could be used to drive that output
[11:44:24] <L84Supper> tjtr33: it looks like I've created another new niche for contactless machine tool components
[11:45:16] <L84Supper> tjtr33: we still ned the accuracy and repeatability but we don't experience the loads and vibration from tools cutting through materials
[11:48:53] <tjtr33> L84Supper, dunno if its new, that describes sink edm in the envelopes that the 100mm clamping areas define (all the mfctrs use similar clamping face geometry)
[11:51:47] <JesusAlos> http://imagebin.org/248474
[11:52:08] <JesusAlos> where I can found the file dmesg
[11:52:10] <JesusAlos> ?
[11:55:55] <micges> JesusAlos: dmesg is command you type in terminal
[12:00:31] <JesusAlos> is very big file
[12:00:48] <JesusAlos> it clean every time restart computer?
[12:01:05] <L84Supper> tjtr33: until we are printing steel parts the loads required by EDM won't be there, the density of photopolymers are ~1 kg/l and composites might be ~2-3 kg/l
[12:01:40] <micges> JesusAlos: sudo dmesg -c
[12:01:49] <micges> JesusAlos: it will clean it
[12:04:10] <JesusAlos> http://pastebin.com/UUKKFJW2
[12:04:23] <JesusAlos> There are error mesage?
[12:05:07] <JesusAlos> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?TroubleShooting#Unexpected_realtime_delay_check_dmesg_for_details
[12:05:21] <JesusAlos> found this refenrece about the message
[12:05:45] <JesusAlos> but don't know the harware incompatibility
[12:06:08] <IchGuckLive> Hi all B)
[12:08:11] <JesusAlos> hi
[12:10:16] <IchGuckLive> B)
[12:11:10] <pcw_home> __ratelimit: 18 callbacks suppressed
[12:11:12] <pcw_home> [ 5574.301582] halcmd[6800]: segfault at 8 ip 004776bc sp bfd552e0 error 6 in liblinuxcnchal.so.0[472000+8000]
[12:11:13] <pcw_home> is the only error I see
[12:14:20] <JesusAlos> I doing RTAI Latency test
http://imagebin.org/248478
[12:14:56] <JesusAlos> this error don't say me nothing
[12:16:45] <pcw_home> Looks like HAL crashed, what did you do that made it crash?
[12:18:48] <JesusAlos> Is possible that for the servo encoder?
[12:18:57] <pcw_home> ?
[12:19:01] <JesusAlos> it do problems every day
[12:19:14] <pcw_home> what problems?
[12:23:03] <JesusAlos> http://imagebin.org/248481 the machine stop for X axis,
[12:23:38] <JesusAlos> repeatedly times
[12:23:49] <pcw_home> That can be encoder or drive or tuning issues
[12:24:38] <pcw_home> Most likely tuning
[12:24:43] <JesusAlos> So, i don't do enyting in HAL to crask, I think
[12:25:14] <AR_> i blew up my spindle speed control
[12:25:17] <AR_> oops
[12:25:18] <JesusAlos> Tuning in Pncconf?
[12:25:35] <pcw_home> tuning via Halscope
[12:26:21] <AR_> do you guys wire all your limit switches in series or do you have them individual?
[12:27:07] <pcw_home> HAL crashing is very likely _not_ related to encoders/drives/following errors
[12:30:12] <andypugh> AR_: In series if short of inputs, otherwise individually
[12:30:35] <JesusAlos> maybe the hardware PC?
[12:30:58] <pcw_home> If you think you have an encoder problem, I would do multilpe long moves and verify that the position does not creep. For tuning I would go through JTs velocity tuning tutorial
http://gnipsel.com/linuxcnc/tuning/servo.html
[12:32:26] <tjtr33> L84Supper, the sink edm tool manipulated by these trunnions is usually graphite, weighs grams, not kg, and small, inside a 150mm cube. so it maybe of use, of course you know your needs best.
[12:32:50] <pcw_home> Its possibly a PC problem but if its PC hardware, I would expect other things to crash not just HAL
[12:40:51] <L84Supper> http://www.haascnc.com/we_spec1.asp?id=TR310&sizeID=310MM_ROTARY nice but overkill
[12:42:39] <L84Supper> tjtr33: do you come across many used smaller wire EDM's?
[12:43:41] <L84Supper> I passed up 2 last summer from the same location, free to a good home, but you had to move and dismantle them yourself
[12:44:23] <tjtr33> L84Supper, try Tom Truty TechStar in Spring Grove, 'restofied' AGies , from 2 axis to 5, from 1m cube to quite large
[12:45:07] <L84Supper> http://www.techstar-edm.com/
[12:45:19] <tjtr33> L84Supper, in the old days, i'd install the machines myself, lifting the x & Y axis onto the cast base by hand (150mmx150mm travels )
[12:45:24] <tjtr33> yep
[12:46:14] <L84Supper> the two I passed up were the size of a car each, 55 gal fluid res.
[12:46:31] <L84Supper> early 80's
[12:47:23] <tjtr33> L84Supper, could you tell me where? i've disassembled and moved a few
[12:47:37] <L84Supper> they were in Cary
[12:48:17] <L84Supper> they had two injection molding machines as well the size of small train cars
[12:48:38] <tjtr33> hmm, knew a few shops out there, thx, and roland, the guy behind some earlier Linuxcnc wkshops had some dead/dying units
[12:49:12] <L84Supper> Sodick
[12:50:25] <tjtr33> just came across this
http://cypherflow.com/ (new to me cnc edm ctl) and this
http://www.winbrogroup.com/ ( didnt know these brits were now in S.C.)
[12:50:34] <L84Supper> tjtr33: whats the current resolution of a new sinker EDM?
[12:51:18] <tjtr33> 1um typical, using 1/2 or 1/4 feedback, pretty std for years
[12:52:12] <tjtr33> the process isnt that precise :) so its arguable, this 'precision of edm'
[12:52:26] <tjtr33> and the surface is hell to measure dimensionally
[12:55:11] <tjtr33> i got to breakdown and move this box to where my scopes are, my new avr timing system is ready for test :0
[12:55:14] <tjtr33> bbl
[12:55:39] <L84Supper> http://www.ebay.com/itm/TSUDAKOMA-4-AXIS-5-AXIS-TRUNNION-TILTING-ROTARY-TABLE-CNC-/251180319724?pt=BI_Tool_Work_Holding&hash=item3a7b8383ec
[12:59:13] <L84Supper> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tsudakoma-Precision-Tandem-Contouring-Trunnion-/290691014826?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43ae88e0aa nice toy, but too big
[13:01:47] <Jymmm> nice toy, but too big
http://a4.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/119/b09cea86bd7d4062acb8d6b1a36e7003/l.jpg
[13:29:58] <ler_hydra> cradek, hey again. (here come some more newbiw questions) what is your opinion on closing the servo loop outside of EMC2? IE. external hardware that manages the entire control loop, only recieving incremental step changes
[13:33:00] <cradek> my opinion is that's another square wheel people like to invent for some reason I don't understand
[13:34:51] <cradek> (and it's been debated at length so so many times)
[13:35:10] <ler_hydra> heh, my line of thought (which is not very well thought through at the moment) is that it might be a good idea to have a general purpose H bridge / servo motor controller available for, well, among other things CNC control. The overhead isn't that bad --- implementing the controller isn't very difficult, and it's more than possible to output various status pins, like a fault status and so on.
[13:35:22] <cradek> I always wonder what problem exactly are you trying to solve by doing that. you have to sacrifice a lot of things.
[13:35:29] <ler_hydra> what are the downsides that you know of?
[13:36:08] <cradek> dangit, sorry, I'm busy and shouldn't have responded to such an involved question when I didn't have time, bbl
[13:36:38] <ler_hydra> well, the next time I would need a power H-bridge/servo controller (which is something that does appear for me every now and again) it would be quite straightforward and easy to get ahold of
[13:36:44] <ler_hydra> haha, sure, np
[13:37:38] <ler_hydra> I'm sure this is a question that appears time and time again, with no general answer to be had and lots of arguments
[13:37:53] <andypugh> Why put the clerverness in the drive when you have a multi-GHz CPU just sat there aching do fun Floating Point Calcs for you?
[13:38:21] <ler_hydra> well, a latency of 20us is pretty significant
[13:38:32] <ler_hydra> at least when it comes to driving PWM and counting the encoder transistions
[13:38:43] <ler_hydra> s/latency/system tick
[13:39:00] <andypugh> In a machine with (probably) 50Hz bandwidth? I don't think it is.
[13:39:31] <andypugh> And I don't think many of us advocate software PWM and encoder counting in a servo system.
[13:39:59] <ler_hydra> well, if I want to drive a servomotor with 8 bits of resolution at 25khz I need a rate of 200khz , or 5u
[13:40:12] <skunkworks> ler_hydra, mesa interface boards are really quite cheap...
[13:40:31] <skunkworks> pwm, step, encoder counting all done in hardware.
[13:40:48] <skunkworks> The loop is closed in linuxcnc so following error and tuning is all done in one place.
[13:41:22] <ler_hydra> there's a lot of benefit in closing the loop around the control system, definitely =)
[13:43:14] <Connor> I consider anything that closes the loop at the driver and not at the controller (linuxcnc) to be a "hybrid" closed loop system.
[13:43:25] <ler_hydra> FWIW it's also somewhat of a hobby that's fun to play around with, and if that hobby manages to make something that's usefull, then all the better
[13:43:56] <skunkworks> sure. though you should spend time improving the core of linuxcnc instead. ;)
[13:44:18] <ler_hydra> ;)
[13:47:53] <Tom_itx> andypugh, spin any brass yet?
[13:48:15] <ler_hydra> (sorry to just barge in here and rehash all these basic questions time and time again)
[13:48:21] <skunkworks> I spend a good part of a year creating a pwm servo amp to then find some on ebay for cheap. :)
[13:48:21] <Tom_itx> that aluminum didn't look too bad
[13:48:28] <skunkworks> found
[13:48:40] <skunkworks> ler_hydra, that is ok.
[13:48:47] <skunkworks> you had the emco lathe - right?
[13:48:53] <ler_hydra> oh, i'm not doing it for the money, far from it
[13:49:02] <Tom_itx> i'm gonna pull the motor control and motor from the washer and try to interface it
[13:49:10] <Tom_itx> it's some type of serial interface
[13:49:38] <ler_hydra> skunkworks, that's right, way back when. Still have it, though I'm planning to retrofit it again. Later on I'm hoping to get a mill too, where I'd like to have servo drives
[13:49:49] <skunkworks> ler_hydra, neither was I. I just could not find inexpensive drives for my system
[13:50:14] <ler_hydra> the first time around I had just started EE and didn't really know what I was doing, there's so much I'd do differently now
[13:50:29] <ler_hydra> skunkworks, what type of PC interface where you going for?
[13:50:41] <skunkworks> ler_hydra, I finished up my conversion since then..
[13:50:52] <skunkworks> pwm.
[13:51:04] <skunkworks> I was making dumb drives for emc
[13:51:10] <ler_hydra> oh ok
[13:51:53] <skunkworks> ler_hydra,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39q6kvrSBSk
[13:52:07] <skunkworks> (I really should make some newer videos
[13:52:12] <ler_hydra> I didn't quite figure out how difficult or feasibile it would be to have some good data interface over the parport. I know it's old, but it's relatively common and if not else cheap(er) than a "real" card
[13:52:29] <skunkworks> some use EPP
[13:52:30] <ler_hydra> I would think that something like SPI over the parport should be fast enough
[13:52:49] <ler_hydra> that's pretty big hardware!
[13:53:17] <skunkworks> that is why initally I tried to make some drives... I needed 20+ amps at 200+v
[13:53:38] <ler_hydra> isn't EPP just an I/O (and maybe speed) definition?
[13:53:51] <ler_hydra> hmm, that's quite a lot of power
[13:54:08] <skunkworks> I found some amc drives - 40a 400v analog
[13:54:15] <ler_hydra> not bad
[13:54:38] <skunkworks> epp is a comunication protocal over the printer port
[13:54:54] <ler_hydra> If I were to roll my own I was more aiming for around 50V and 20A
[13:55:28] <ler_hydra> both for servos as well as other loads (like a transformer in a forward converter for example)
[13:55:56] <ler_hydra> oh, including things like byte length, flow control, and so on?
[13:57:13] <skunkworks> ler_hydra, I don't know it that well.. ;)
[13:57:22] <ler_hydra> hehe, ok ;)
[13:58:08] <ler_hydra> for my case I'd like to be able to use something like SPI (a serial, clocked, interface), but adding support for a (IMO awful) step/dir/brake/fault interface would be easy
[14:10:43] <ler_hydra> skunkworks, any idea if it would be feasible to have some clocked serial interface through the parport, that could set the drive duty cycle and read the encoder position?
[14:11:54] <ler_hydra> say a one byte header and one byte packet, the header signifying the content and the packet containing the data?
[14:20:35] <skunkworks> my gut says no - but that is above my paygrade.
[14:21:51] <ler_hydra> ok. for simplicity's sake I might just stick with the standard (though poor) step/dir interface, and only alert EMC2 on a fault condition
[14:37:44] <mrsun> hmm as alu has 1/3rd the stiffness of cast iron, if i make it 3 times as thick would it be as stiff as cast iron then ? :P
[14:54:00] * JT-Shop loves to stay out of this endless debate that comes around oh so often
[14:54:10] <ler_hydra> heh, I don't blame you
[15:04:35] <skunkworks> I like it - keeps me sharp ;)
[15:05:09] <JT-Shop> ):
[15:05:46] <skunkworks> Yo mama's so fat - she uses step/direction servo interfaces!
[15:06:01] <JT-Shop> LOL
[15:06:23] <ler_hydra> I think it's mostly based on what you're comfortable with, as I don't code for PCs I'd rather integrate the smarts into an embedded device, and vice versa. When all you have is a hammer...
[15:06:42] <ler_hydra> but I definitely agree that for this specific case it's far better to close the loop with EMC2
[15:07:33] <skunkworks> And - you don't have to 'code' for it to work in linuxcnc...
[15:07:37] <JT-Shop> what coding? you need to learn two words "net" and "setp" or just let the wizards set up your machine
[15:07:44] <ler_hydra> yep
[15:08:08] <ler_hydra> mostly it's for the lulz though
[15:08:11] * JT-Shop and the wife are going to SpyderFest :)
[15:08:25] <ler_hydra> if I just wanted a driver it would be far easier and cheaper (in time) to buy a drive
[15:09:07] <skunkworks> JT-Shop, nice!
[15:15:45] <andypugh> Tom_itx: Just had one failure and 1 success spinning the Pewter version.
[15:15:57] <andypugh> I am practicing the soldering on the failure. It's a challenge.
[15:16:23] <andypugh> ler_hydra: Yes, you can send dat through the parport. Google Mesa 7i43 and Pic PPMC
[15:16:46] <andypugh> Actually, as I can't type, let me do it for you:
[15:17:13] <andypugh> http://www.mesanet.com/pdf/parallel/7i43man.pdf
[15:17:25] <andypugh> http://pico-systems.com/PPMC.html
[15:17:35] <andypugh> Both compatible with LinuxCNC
[15:18:02] <Tom_itx> andypugh, how many times did you have to anneal it while spinning?
[15:18:14] <andypugh> None. No need with Pewter
[15:18:28] <ler_hydra> andypugh, ah, thanks!
[15:18:59] <Tom_itx> have you run the other one yet?
[15:19:08] <ler_hydra> looks like there's some specifications that define EPP, but the implemtation of data contents is up to the designer (much like RS232 for example)
[15:20:28] <andypugh> Tom_itx: No, I am trying to decide if I want to do it tonight, or wait for tomorrow.
[15:20:41] <Tom_itx> did you grab that update i posted?
[15:20:56] <andypugh> Just about to
[15:21:05] <Tom_itx> it might gouge the corner on the other one, i added a couple extra cuts on the beginning
[15:22:00] <Tom_itx> i think i'm gonna pull the motor and control from the washer. i finally gave up on repairing it
[15:22:10] <Tom_itx> maybe i can interface to it
[15:22:21] <Tom_itx> some type of serial interface for the speed control
[15:23:10] <Tom_itx> i think the new one has a F & P style direct drive motor
[15:24:09] <andypugh> I have an extra 8i20 to try running one of those motors :-)
[15:24:36] <Tom_itx> hopefully i can get enough of the control so i can put a scope on the signal
[15:24:44] <Tom_itx> or logic analizer
[15:24:51] <Tom_itx> if it's 5v signal
[15:33:27] <JT-Shop> skunkworks: it will be the first time the wife and I have gotten away for a couple of days in a long time
[15:35:21] <skunkworks> That sounds great - We have the same problem
[16:38:10] <JesusAlos> GN
[16:48:24] <DJ9DJ> gn8
[17:26:47] <andypugh> Tom_itx: I was all ready to run the file. Then my network died and I can't get the file to the CNC machine.
[17:54:32] <r00t4rd3d> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.ea.games.r3_na
[17:54:51] <r00t4rd3d> you can buy cars that cost $100
[17:54:51] <Jymmm> Note to self: Dont hire andypugh as a network admin =)
[17:59:41] <ds3> is there a page with a list of current decent motherboards for use with a step/dir EMC system?
[17:59:56] <r00t4rd3d> intel atom d525mw
[18:00:02] <r00t4rd3d> is what you want
[18:00:12] <ds3> does that have an onboard parallel port?
[18:00:21] <ReadError> r00t4rd3d
[18:00:23] <ReadError> got an android
[18:00:28] <ReadError> sucks compared to iphone
[18:00:29] <ReadError> just sayin
[18:00:40] <ds3> doh local store don't have that
[18:00:45] <r00t4rd3d> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Intel-D525MW-Mini-ITX-Motherboard-w-Atom-525-CPU-/200542103383?pt=Motherboards&hash=item2eb13da757
[18:01:03] <r00t4rd3d> ReadError, what you get?
[18:01:14] <ReadError> ssg3 from work
[18:01:32] <ReadError> 2 iphones would have put me past the hipster threshold
[18:02:06] <r00t4rd3d> android is much more tinker friendly then ios
[18:02:19] <ds3> sigh... 24pin power
[18:02:29] <ReadError> i need to update the OS maybe
[18:02:40] <r00t4rd3d> what ver is it on?
[18:02:48] <r00t4rd3d> settings, about
[18:03:39] <ds3> no reason to ebay it... amazon and other places have it for similar prices
[18:03:49] <r00t4rd3d> newegg too i think
[18:04:06] <r00t4rd3d> lots of us use that board
[18:04:09] <r00t4rd3d> hassle free
[18:04:09] <ds3> any ohter boards recommended?
[18:04:17] <ReadError> 4.0.4
[18:04:22] <r00t4rd3d> yuck
[18:04:32] <r00t4rd3d> thats old
[18:04:52] <ReadError> yea he told me to update it using the samsung shit
[18:04:52] <r00t4rd3d> google nexus's on 4.2.2 :)
[18:04:59] <r00t4rd3d> kies
[18:05:04] <ReadError> ya
[18:05:11] <r00t4rd3d> see if there is a ota update
[18:05:17] <ds3> how big is the current Ubuntu image + LinuxCNC/EMC2?
[18:05:17] <r00t4rd3d> settings, about, update
[18:05:18] <ReadError> he said it will be like
[18:05:20] <ReadError> a week or 2
[18:05:23] <ds3> (trying to size a useable HD)
[18:05:25] <ReadError> before att pushes it out
[18:05:45] <andypugh> ds3: Celeron G550 2-core, 2.6GHz. ASUS P8H61-M LX2 R2.0 mATX
[18:06:00] <andypugh> ds3: ASUS E45M1-M PRO
[18:06:07] <andypugh> (from the mailing list)
[18:06:07] <r00t4rd3d> ds3, a 4gig will work
[18:06:09] <ReadError> ds3: im gonna put a 64gb ssd in mine
[18:06:16] <ReadError> and it s more than enough
[18:06:20] <ds3> r00t4rd3d: 4G is enough?
[18:06:24] <r00t4rd3d> yeah
[18:06:39] <andypugh> I _develop_ LinuxCNC on an 8GB SSD
[18:06:55] <ds3> I see.
[18:07:12] <ds3> getting tired of running EMC2 on a AMD K6-3 ;)
[18:07:51] <r00t4rd3d> better off with something intel
[18:08:03] <ds3> the AMD board was what i had lying around
[18:08:35] <ds3> does the stock 3D GUI work fine on the Intel D525DW board?
[18:08:42] <r00t4rd3d> ru in usa?
[18:09:16] <andypugh> ds3: Yes
[18:09:19] <r00t4rd3d> gui of what?
[18:09:27] <L84Supper> why is intel better?
[18:09:32] <ds3> forgot the name of it...there is a 3D GUI
[18:09:44] <r00t4rd3d> for linux?
[18:09:45] <ds3> it doesn't work for me on my current setup. I force it to use tkemc
[18:10:10] <r00t4rd3d> everything works just fine with a 525
[18:10:14] <L84Supper> "r00t4rd3d> better off with something intel" I was just wondering why
[18:10:18] <r00t4rd3d> linux, windows, etc
[18:10:50] <ds3> don't care about the vendor.. want a as simple as possible improvement so I cna be back to making chips
[18:11:32] <ds3> is there a Mini PCIE slot on the D525MW that I see?
[18:11:46] <r00t4rd3d> yeah
[18:11:55] <r00t4rd3d> you can get a ssd drive for it
[18:12:24] <ds3> nice.. I can reuse the old one from the eeePC
[18:13:40] <r00t4rd3d> http://www.ebay.com/itm/KingSpec-Mini-PCIE-sata-8GB-SSD-/350577920132?pt=US_Internal_Hard_Disk_Drives&hash=item51a0128884
[18:13:42] <r00t4rd3d> yeah
[18:14:15] <ds3> 4G decent for EMC2?
[18:14:25] <ds3> (RAM)
[18:14:28] <L84Supper> ds3: we use AMD just fine all the time with EMC
[18:14:42] <ds3> L84Supper: I am using an AMD K6-3 so it is a tad bit slow
[18:14:50] <andypugh> ds3: 4G is more than enough. 2G would be fine.
[18:14:55] <ds3> oh
[18:14:56] <ReadError> im using 6.4 right now
[18:15:53] <r00t4rd3d> the 525 specs say you can only use 4gb but it will take 8gb
[18:16:14] <ReadError> oh
[18:16:19] <ReadError> i thought you meant HD
[18:16:24] <r00t4rd3d> i only have 4gb in mine and its fine
[18:16:29] <andypugh> r00t4rd3d: Do you know for sure that that drive works with the D525?
[18:16:40] <ReadError> show me 8gb in free -m r00t4rd3d
[18:16:48] <ds3> don't care... it is an embedded system/controller
[18:17:17] <r00t4rd3d> andypugh, no not for sure but according to the board specs it should
[18:17:29] <r00t4rd3d> mini pcie card
[18:18:01] <andypugh> I know that
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/KingSpec-8GB-SATA-DOM-MLC-KDM-SA-51-08GMJ-SSD-42-MB-S-Solid-State-Disk-/190703794464?pt=UK_Computing_Other_Computing_Networking&hash=item2c66d4f920 will work.
[18:18:35] <r00t4rd3d> yeah but thats for the usb ssd header
[18:18:55] <andypugh> SATA
[18:19:05] <r00t4rd3d> oh
[18:19:08] <andypugh> (Not USB)
[18:19:33] <r00t4rd3d> pcie faster then sata port?
[18:20:45] <r00t4rd3d> real racing 3 on my nexus 7 is awesome game
[18:21:27] <jdh> any power problems with the nexus7?
[18:21:40] <jdh> I got my MiL one for xmas, it currently refuses to power on
[18:23:35] <ReadError> is there an easy way to change the speed of a gcode file?
[18:23:56] <ReadError> the feed override of 120% is not enough ;/ and i lost my cam save
[18:24:35] <jdh> search/replace is the easiest.
[18:25:02] <jdh> unless you have tons of different F's
[18:26:01] <andypugh> ReadError: Change the max override? Mine goes to 10X because I mess up a lot :-)
[18:26:33] <ReadError> oh i can make it exceed the 120% ??
[18:26:46] <ReadError> thats exactly what i want
[18:26:55] <andypugh> [DISPLAY]MAX_FEED_OVERRIDE = 1.2 - The maximum feed override the user may select. 1.2 means 120% of the programmed feed rate.
[18:27:05] <ReadError> see im using old code from my mill on my new router
[18:27:10] <ReadError> which has a much faster spindle speed
[18:27:15] <ReadError> so i can really juice the speed up
[18:27:25] <ReadError> im shredding this g10 ;)
[18:29:40] <ReadError> awesome thanks i will change that once this is finished cutting
[18:32:18] <jdh> I usually change my F to use #666
[18:32:44] <jdh> though sometimes I change my Z to #666 and when I forget, it isn't pretty.
[18:36:30] <ReadError> whats #666 do?
[18:36:45] <jdh> it's just a variable
[18:37:00] <ReadError> also i wish there was a way i could just rotate my gcode easy
[18:37:01] <andypugh> The Parameter of The Beast
[18:37:13] <jdh> Read: G10 L2 R90
[18:37:15] <andypugh> ReadError: G10 L2 R?
[18:37:55] <ReadError> oh will that just rotate it on the z axis 180 ?
[18:38:09] <ReadError> R180
[18:38:12] <andypugh> Whatver R value you use, yes
[18:38:38] <jdh> pay attention when you touch off x/y
[18:39:10] <ReadError> i wish hsmxpress did tabs like aspire
[18:39:35] <ReadError> some of the parts are small so the vacuum can suck them up pretty easy
[18:40:29] <ds3> on a different thing - how miserable is PCB milling at 6400rpm?
[18:43:58] <ReadError> i milled mine at 10k
[18:44:08] <andypugh> Less miserable than at the 1000rpm my mill can handle
[18:46:45] <ds3> hmmm ok
[18:46:54] <ds3> trying to put off getting the sherline spindle
[18:56:28] <jdh> I'm trying to arrange a free 30krpm spindle to mount on the side of my mill
[18:56:54] <pfred1> I put a router on the side of my mill once
[18:57:25] <Valen> We were planning on putting 3 spindles on our mill to avoid doing some toolchanges for one job
[18:57:40] <pfred1> that ought to look interesting
[18:57:53] <pfred1> don't get too close to it or it'll suck you right in!
[18:57:59] <Valen> job didn't happen but it was nifty
[18:58:20] <Valen> 2 were actually routers, the other one was the real spindle
[18:58:35] <pfred1> the way I did it was kind of half assed I had no way of easily adjusting the height or anything
[18:59:59] <pfred1> man I'm stoked i found some RAM sticks kicking around in here and they're running in my new box
[19:00:11] <Valen> lol
[19:00:25] <Valen> I have a "sea shell" full of DDR1 ram
[19:00:28] <pfred1> but now I have to see if running different speeds in different banks impacts performance
[19:00:35] <Valen> nah
[19:00:41] <pfred1> it seems it depends on the motherboard
[19:00:44] <Valen> more ram will more than make up for slower ram
[19:01:05] <pfred1> well I'm going to try it one bank loaded then 2 and benchmark it
[19:01:39] <pfred1> that was what was wrong with this box when I picked it up some RAM was bad in it
[19:01:52] <pfred1> so when I fired it up all it would do was beep
[19:02:45] <pfred1> I looked online saw some folks say RAM said hey give it a shot so I pulled it all looked at the 4 sticks picked 2 and put them into bank 0 and it works now
[19:14:11] <r00t4rd3d> http://mycolorscreen.com/popular/?os=android
[19:20:09] <pfred1> mobile devices are the new gold rush
[19:22:09] <r00t4rd3d> thanks to android
[19:26:03] <pfred1> thanks to massive stupidity
[19:33:37] <ReadError> pfred1,
[19:33:43] <ReadError> i gotta have one for work
[19:33:49] <ReadError> emergency stuff
[19:35:44] <pfred1> ReadError thank you for sharing the minority opinion
[19:37:53] <Valen> I have a galaxy note 1, the missus has a note 2, in what way are we stupid?
[19:39:02] <pfred1> Valen well you're paying a good amount for a service of questionable total value
[19:39:12] <pfred1> but hey if money grows on trees
[19:39:22] <Valen> huh?
[19:39:23] <pfred1> what is an extra $80 a month?
[19:39:31] <Valen> I pay $19 a month
[19:39:42] <pfred1> some plans are considerably more
[19:39:53] <Valen> i baught my phone outright
[19:40:00] <Valen> so did she
[19:40:30] <Valen> and she pretty much flattens the battery on hers every day, so its getting used
[19:40:36] <pfred1> so is that $19 a month each or combined?
[19:40:41] <Valen> each
[19:40:56] <r00t4rd3d> I dont have any monthly fees
[19:41:03] <pfred1> I guess you can't do much with $456 these days
[19:41:07] <r00t4rd3d> and i can make free phone calls world wide
[19:41:22] <pfred1> maybe a nice weekend away
[19:41:49] <pfred1> it is still a lot of money to shell out and to have nothing to show for it
[19:41:55] <Valen> except that if we happened to wander into different parts of wherever we were when we were away we would spend 3 hours searching for the other
[19:42:07] <Valen> pfred1: how much do you spend for your internet connection?
[19:42:34] <pfred1> Valen it is bundled with phone and TV so that is difficult to answer
[19:42:50] <Valen> never mind what do you pay for all of those
[19:42:56] <pfred1> quite a bit
[19:43:09] <Valen> and what do you have to show for them at the end of the year?
[19:43:14] <Valen> what physical product
[19:43:16] <pfred1> a lot of movies
[19:43:28] <r00t4rd3d> pirate
[19:43:29] <Valen> so that intangible is an asset then?
[19:43:32] <pfred1> hmm physical products
[19:44:01] <pfred1> well I make electronic circuits from time to time I'm using the information to work on this PC I just got
[19:44:12] <Valen> its still intangible
[19:44:16] <pfred1> not to me
[19:44:22] <Valen> you cant give me half a cup of internet
[19:44:39] <pfred1> I have about a TB of internet here now
[19:44:52] <Valen> the point i'm making is the *service* provided gives you an intangible asset
[19:45:00] <pfred1> well if I consider burnt DVDs I can't say
[19:45:21] <Valen> its something that holds value not because of its inherent value but because of the information provided
[19:45:31] <pfred1> Valen you're going to have to try harder to make your point
[19:45:34] <Valen> your movies are just information presented in a pleasing manner
[19:46:08] <pfred1> 2 weeks ago I did a show downtown and some joker came up and tried to research an item I was selling on his smart phone know what he ended up doing?
[19:46:10] <Valen> the inherent value in a burnt CD is about 1 cents worth of plastic
[19:46:22] <pfred1> wasting about 10 minutes of our combined time
[19:46:32] <Valen> irrelivent
[19:46:52] <pfred1> my point is sometimes a resource is less than resourceful
[19:47:27] <Valen> so all smartphone owners are stupid
[19:47:32] <pfred1> the Internet is great but do you need it when you walk out the door?
[19:47:42] <Valen> yes
[19:47:44] <pfred1> do I carry my refrigerator around with me?
[19:47:50] <pfred1> because i might want a bite to eat
[19:48:02] <jdh> are you an old fart?
[19:48:19] <pfred1> hey my uncle carries like 3 coolers around with him
[19:48:28] <pfred1> but man he can eat and drink whenever he wants to!
[19:48:39] <Valen> with my phone in my pocket i'm always in my office, so i can be out with my wife enjoying the sunshine and spend 10 minutes fixing somebodies computer then enjoy the rest of the day
[19:49:16] <pfred1> Valen if I'm going to fix someone's computer I take it home with me
[19:49:19] <pfred1> then it is mine!
[19:49:41] <jdh> many old folks don't seem to care for, nor appreciate ubiquitous interwebbes.
[19:49:49] <Valen> with her phone in her pocket when she is sitting on the train she is socalising with her friends on facebook, playing games, reading books and generally having fun
[19:50:09] <Valen> ok so its not perfect but then nothing is
[19:50:31] <pfred1> jdh I live at the beach and when I go downtown I see these idiots walking around completely disconnected from their present surroundings with their frigging phones up their asses
[19:51:25] <Valen> actually you see a bunch of people doing things they want, regardless of their surroundings
[19:51:27] <pfred1> I mean it is like the 7th nicest place in the country and they could be walking around in the bottom of a dumpster for all it mattered to them
[19:52:09] <Valen> so because somebody likes different things to you they are stupid
[19:52:09] <jdh> it's ok.
[19:52:20] <DaViruz> i'd rather gave my phone up my ass than my head up my ass
[19:52:33] <pfred1> Valen no they're stupid because they're making manufacturers and providers rich
[19:52:36] <jdh> DaViruz: if you set it vibrate first?
[19:52:36] <r00t4rd3d> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=it.studioundici.rilievo
[19:52:43] <r00t4rd3d> make dxf's on your android :)
[19:52:50] <pfred1> people don't have time or money for anything else today
[19:52:51] <DaViruz> jdh: my head doesn't have a vibrate setting
[19:52:52] <Valen> so you have never spent any money in your life
[19:53:25] <jdh> why back in my day, we had Bell Phones and nothing else and we were glad to have them!
[19:53:27] <pfred1> Valen all I'm saying is it is changing the world and it is not for the better
[19:53:35] <jdh> s/the better/you/
[19:53:53] <Valen> its not for the betterment of you, because you don't want to
[19:53:59] <jdh> them young kids playing their god awful rock and roll music!
[19:54:02] <pfred1> jdh yeah well enjoy the brave new pussy worl
[19:54:06] <pfred1> jdh yeah well enjoy the brave new pussy world
[19:54:14] <Valen> I find having the knowledge of the world in my pocket quite handy
[19:54:20] <jdh> the worlds just going to hell in a handbasket
[19:54:24] <Jymmm> jdh: EVERYBODY POLKA!!!!
[19:54:31] <pfred1> jdh indeed rock music is god awful today
[19:54:36] <jdh> heh
[19:54:47] <pfred1> back in my day we could thrash it out
[19:54:51] <Tom_itx> question is, who put it in the hand basket?
[19:54:55] <Valen> like when a neighbour's son's car broke down I googled it and found the source of the leak on the ass side of the engine that 3 people had been looking for for 25 minutes
[19:54:57] <pfred1> what do you have justin beiber?
[19:55:06] <Jymmm> pfred1: Back in your day, fire didn't exist yet
[19:55:10] <pfred1> the frigging bee gees rocked harder than he can!
[19:55:27] <Valen> then i used my phone to stick back there and take a picture of it, verified the broken plastic bit and gave him the part number to give to BMW for a replacement
[19:55:30] <jdh> they haven't made any good music since benny goodman quit playing
[19:55:57] <Valen> another time i pulled up to help somebody whose car had broken down, it kept blowing the ignition fuse
[19:56:00] <pfred1> I would much rather listen to a steady diet of the bee gees than what passes for popular music today
[19:56:09] <Jymmm> Bach rocks your world bitches!
[19:56:11] <jdh> and you can, on the internette!
[19:56:20] <Valen> googled it, common problem with that make/model was the condenser shorting
[19:56:25] <jdh> pfred: fire up the beegee channel on pandora
[19:56:41] <Valen> disconnected the condenser, they got to a service station and replaced it
[19:56:49] <Jymmm> jdh: Um, it's sad that you know there even exists a beegees channel on pandora
[19:56:53] <pfred1> jdh this is what the world was like before the advent of cell phones
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-H_Fw7zU3I
[19:56:57] <jdh> everything exists on pandora
[19:57:17] <Jymmm> jdh: No clue, I just listen to my squuezebox
[19:57:22] <Valen> internet in the pocket, saved people several thousand dollars in towing and mechanic fees
[19:57:58] <jdh> from the rant, I would have guessed lawrence welk
[19:58:09] <Jymmm> jdh: shutup butthead!
[19:58:27] <Jymmm> heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh
[19:58:45] <pfred1> running no condenser will burn out your points
[19:59:02] <jdh> yeah, things were better when we had points!
[19:59:09] <Valen> it gets you to the servo though
[19:59:20] <r00t4rd3d> http://sktechworks.ca/2011/11/29/project-showcase-touchcnc-android-app/
[19:59:22] <Valen> new distributor was like $50 anyway
[19:59:32] <ReadError> well
[19:59:35] <Jymmm> Valen: the whole thing of just the cap
[19:59:35] <ReadError> my work shits free
[19:59:41] <ReadError> but i use my iphone for derpage
[19:59:44] <ReadError> and personal calls
[19:59:49] <jdh> me too
[19:59:54] <jdh> I have a BB for work
[20:00:00] <pfred1> jdh things were better when folks knew how to fix their cars
[20:00:21] <pfred1> I've built a couple so that helps
[20:00:23] <jdh> yeah, and when cars lasted 100kmiles, they were gone
[20:00:43] <jdh> do you miss outdoor plumbing also?
[20:00:45] <pfred1> jdh I own the same model as the current world record holder
[20:00:59] <jdh> what about women voting? are you still pissed about that?
[20:01:02] <pfred1> jdh I enjoy places where all they have is outdoor plumbing
[20:01:06] <Jymmm> pfred1: I have no clue what your talking about
http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1220835-replace-fuel-pump-without-dropping-gas-tank.html#post12786465
[20:01:47] <Valen> cap is like $5
[20:01:50] <pfred1> jdh when I was camping in Maine the ranger came and dug us a new pit and when he left he told us you'll be able to count the seconds!
[20:01:57] <Jymmm> Valen: ah, good deal then.
[20:02:17] <Valen> towing to a mechanic $300, mechanic $200
[20:02:51] <pfred1> my old 142 was rather particular with which condenser it would run on for it it was Bosch or nothing
[20:03:14] <jdh> I had to replace a rear brake line on an old PoS Explorer a few weeks ago, $14 vs towing + whatever
[20:04:13] <Valen> I'm going to replace my missus 199something 250cc 4 cylinder zeal carb+distributor with a megasquirt+spark
[20:04:16] <Jymmm> jdh: $700-$1100 to replce the in-tank fuel pump on mine, $100 doing it myself including jack stands, electrical manual, fuel filter, fiel line release tools
[20:04:19] <Valen> EFI + electronic ignition
[20:04:31] <skunkworks> Jymmm: did that fix it?
[20:04:34] <Valen> oh thanks for reminding me, i need to replace my fuel pump
[20:04:39] <jdh> I paid $300ish to replace the one in my old suburban
[20:04:48] <Jymmm> skunkworks: Yep
http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1220835-replace-fuel-pump-without-dropping-gas-tank.html#post12786465
[20:05:00] <Valen> its got a whine to it that i'm unhappy about
[20:05:15] <pfred1> worry when it stops whining
[20:05:40] <skunkworks> Jymmm: great!
[20:05:53] <pfred1> the very first car I owned was EFI I was never too keen on it
[20:06:11] <Jymmm> skunkworks: Yeah, I did that writeup to help some other poor bastard out as I couldn't find anyhting on it myself.
[20:06:15] <pfred1> I finally got a mechanical injection system I liked that a lot better
[20:06:52] <pfred1> as much as i may like electronics I don't like running down the road with any more than I absolutely have to
[20:06:57] <pfred1> although I do like spark boxes
[20:07:16] <jdh> you don't have to.
[20:07:25] <pfred1> I pur an MSD into one car I had and it could shoot little blue flames out of the tail pipe when you hit the gas i thougth that was pretty cute
[20:07:28] <jdh> but, you don't have to whine about people that choose to do so.
[20:08:37] <pfred1> those spark boxes work
[20:10:05] <skunkworks> Jymmm: nice
[20:10:26] <Jymmm> skunkworks: Yeah? Thanks =)
[20:10:48] <skunkworks> I only replaced an in-tank fuel pump once.. but it was accessable though a pannel in the trunk
[20:11:08] <Jymmm> skunkworks: no such luck for me, not even if I wanted to make one
[20:13:22] <Jymmm> Two rows down, 4 to go
[20:44:30] <r00t4rd3d> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OLDMLEfhmQ
[21:34:40] <r00t4rd3d> http://software.intel.com/en-us/articles/intel-atom-x86-image-for-android-4-2-jelly-bean-installation-instructions-manually
[21:45:20] <Valen> well now thats kinda interesting
[21:45:25] <Valen> i wonder if it has google maps
[21:45:37] <Valen> I want a car computer, but I also want it to have google maps
[21:48:54] <jdh> get a 7" tablet, tape it to the dashboard
[21:49:19] <Valen> I've found some nice in dash double din PC's
[21:49:47] <skunkworks> at work they had a 15hp vfd go bad - shorted out the 3phase bridge. all 6 diodes. took out one of the main breakers.
[21:50:02] <Valen> make a noise skunkworks?
[21:50:13] <skunkworks> I don't know if anyone was around.
[21:50:21] <skunkworks> it was running a vaccum pump
[21:51:20] <Valen> bigass pump
[21:51:25] <jdh> what do you do with a 15hp vaccum pump?
[21:51:33] <skunkworks> we have a lot of vaccum tables
[21:51:44] <skunkworks> for holding sheet stock
[21:51:53] <skunkworks> (we print stuff)
[21:51:56] <jdh> or vacuum
[21:52:01] <skunkworks> right
[21:52:08] <Valen> you pump a whole lot of nothing jdh ;->
[21:52:57] <jdh> we have lots of vacuum pumps at work... sometimes, people keep adding oil when it gets low and never bother to think about why the oil is low
