#linuxcnc | Logs for 2013-01-29

[00:11:16] <r00t4rd3d> can someone buy me this please?
[00:11:16] <r00t4rd3d> http://www.red.com/store/products/epic-x-pro-bundle
[00:26:41] <Loetmichel> mornin'
[00:28:58] <fragalot> g'day
[00:28:59] * fragalot => work
[00:30:27] <Loetmichel> <- starting to. have to clean up my car, today is the bi-yearly official Checkup. ant the car looks like a mess. and its raining :-(
[00:30:59] <Loetmichel> and brining a messy car to the Checkup engineer isnt a great idea ;-)
[00:31:22] <Loetmichel> the look twice as eager to find a fault then
[00:31:39] <r00t4rd3d> bring him tea and biscuits
[00:33:17] <Loetmichel> not possible. will bring the car to a garage nearby my workplace, they will redo the rear brakes , some minor stuff and then get the test engineer at site.
[00:33:43] <Loetmichel> so i can get my car back in the evening, hopefully wit a new "checktag".
[01:04:02] <Tecan> http://i.imgur.com/ugQkzYT.jpg
[02:09:02] <DJ9DJ> moin
[02:22:00] <Tecan> -36 outside
[02:22:13] <Tecan> 35 km/h wind
[02:25:03] <Jymmm> Tecan: Step out of the walkin freezer, DUH!
[02:31:41] <Tecan> i do have to step into it every hour now
[02:31:44] <Tecan> usually its 2
[02:31:59] <Jymmm> =)
[05:28:40] <kanzure> this kuka video is completely over-the-top http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgA396HOr4Q
[05:42:55] <Jymmm> LOL, it reminds me a a fictional Mega Corp in some Super Hero movie. Like the Mega Corp in iRobot
[05:43:19] <Jymmm> kanzure: ^^^^^^
[05:45:35] <Jymmm> kanzure: Ah, "USR" is the Mega Corp in iRobot.
[05:49:33] <Jymmm> kanzure: hahahahaha http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=kuka
[05:50:04] <Jymmm> kanzure: Robotic Vagina!
[07:03:43] <TekniQue> Jymmm: kuka means to take a shit in icelandic
[07:12:23] <mutilator> r00t4rd3d: i do, yea why?
[09:30:17] <JT-Shop> chopper79: I updated the component on my web site to remove unused pins
[11:13:50] <jdh> I ordered one of those cheap nano-scope things. Anyone ever used one?
[11:54:26] <JT-Shop> spindle encoder didn't work after it sat for while... tapped housing with rubber hammer and it started working YUCK!
[11:55:12] <micges> not good sign
[11:55:38] <roh> clean with oil-free air
[11:55:50] <roh> not too much pressure
[11:56:06] <JT-Shop> the encoder?
[11:56:17] <JT-Shop> it is sealed in a housing
[11:56:24] <roh> ah. hm. bad
[11:56:35] <roh> not really sealed also *g+
[11:57:04] <JT-Shop> not really easy to get to
[11:57:45] <JT-Shop> has to be a belt drive it is on the spindle of my Hardinge CHNC
[12:14:12] <IchGuckLive> hi all B)
[12:18:35] <DJ9DJ> hoi
[12:20:18] <JT-Shop> hola
[12:20:35] <IchGuckLive> is a raini day
[12:20:53] <IchGuckLive> tha Ausies are well down under this Days
[13:24:01] <IchGuckLive> hi ravenlock does the mashine run 4th axis
[13:24:18] * ravenlock looks around
[13:24:25] <ravenlock> me?
[13:24:42] <IchGuckLive> yes
[13:24:48] <ravenlock> to which machine do you refer? (the one I mentioned some time back?)
[13:24:52] <IchGuckLive> i made you a sim for the 4th axis did you got the real mashine run
[13:25:13] <ravenlock> right. k. just making sure I did not walk into the middle of a conversaiotn
[13:25:28] <ravenlock> I have not run anything on the machine yet.
[13:25:30] <IchGuckLive> B) O.O
[13:25:39] <ravenlock> :( I know.
[13:25:41] <IchGuckLive> BAD
[13:25:44] <ravenlock> is not my machine
[13:25:54] <ravenlock> I will be borrowing time on anothers machine.
[13:26:02] <ravenlock> just for the final tests.
[13:26:08] <IchGuckLive> ah then keep sunshine in your hard
[13:26:19] <ravenlock> my in my who?
[13:26:38] <IchGuckLive> i made a nice gearbox today
[13:28:04] <IchGuckLive> http://mechmo.de/x_zahn.jpg
[13:28:31] <ravenlock> cool
[13:28:33] <ravenlock> looks good
[13:29:32] <IchGuckLive> 470 Euros
[13:29:49] <IchGuckLive> i think i go for a Planetary its only 260
[13:31:06] <IchGuckLive> ok its late by till tomorrow
[13:31:19] <ravenlock> g'nite
[13:42:08] <tandoori> ok friends, i am worried now
[13:43:04] <tandoori> since i will be using my cnc mill for mostly pcb milling, should i opt for one of the (cheaper) mills with more surface area to work with
[13:43:22] <tandoori> i REALLY want a taig mill, but the work area is kind of restrictive
[13:44:26] <tandoori> id get a chinese mill, but im afraid the quality is a bit lackluster compared to the taig
[13:44:55] <anonimasu> you will have that problem with whatever machine you choose(work area size
[13:45:11] <tandoori> this is my first mill, i want to get one that suits my needs, but that will also grow with me
[13:45:25] <anonimasu> I have 800x600x600 on my big mill it's about half the size i'd like
[13:45:44] <anonimasu> :)
[13:46:46] <tandoori> i just dont know what to do. I just want a mid range cnc mill. why the hell are those mills longer than they are wide anyway?
[13:47:11] <anonimasu> you mean the x is longer?
[13:47:25] <anonimasu> it's always like that on any machine pretty much
[13:47:25] <tandoori> i thought it would make more sense to have a work area more balanced
[13:47:32] <gene77> Hi guys, need a 7 degree taper over a 10.1mm travel, is that a total taper of 1.24mm?
[13:47:43] <tandoori> mind if i give you an example
[13:48:51] <tandoori> http://www.aliexpress.com/item/High-Precision-pcb-milling-machine/717002157.html
[13:49:02] <tandoori> i need a surface area like that
[13:49:22] <tandoori> http://www.taigtools.com/cmill.html
[13:49:28] <tandoori> but with the quality of that
[13:50:38] <tandoori> i dont know. maybe the china mill is of pretty good quality
[13:50:44] <anonimasu> they arent
[13:50:49] <tandoori> heh
[13:51:28] <anonimasu> (note that the brand dosent matter)
[13:51:45] <anonimasu> they are ok if you like to fight the mechanical part to make them work..
[13:52:14] <tandoori> what do you mean by fight?
[13:53:28] <anonimasu> fixing things like slop and bad alignment and bad bearings and bad spindle..
[13:54:04] <anonimasu> poor build quality
[13:54:20] <tandoori> do you know of any higher quality mills with work areas like the chinese mill?
[13:54:37] <anonimasu> a old machine(very old cnc machine) that's beat to half death is likely better then a new mill like that
[13:57:50] <tandoori> awallin: i have other uses for the mill
[13:58:02] <tandoori> but mostly for pcb work
[13:58:30] <awallin> then you need two machines :)
[13:58:38] <tandoori> i will also mill enclosures,
[13:58:50] <tandoori> um, no dont need two machines, thats silly
[14:00:06] <jdh> of course you don't
[14:00:11] <jdh> you need three
[14:01:07] * tandoori sighs
[14:01:12] <tandoori> thanks for the help everyone
[14:01:42] <awallin> these are decent for pcb work www.ebay.de/itm/LPKF-ProtoMat-S91s-VS-60-000-RPM-version-/290853401325
[14:03:39] <tandoori> huh
[14:03:50] <tandoori> are they good for other things too? :-P
[14:03:51] <jdh> with a real spindle
[14:04:23] <awallin> not really, but a machine that is good for pcb's will not be that great for other things
[14:04:58] <tandoori> so it wouldnt be good for making enclosures out of plastic and aluminum?
[14:05:01] <jdh> and the othe rway around
[14:06:06] <awallin> the lpkf pcb mills I've used just have up/down z-axes, so they are essentially for 2D work
[14:06:31] * tandoori frowns
[14:06:36] <tandoori> i need a more versatile machine
[14:07:11] <tandoori> i would settle for mid quality if the mill will be able to accomplish all the things i need it to do
[14:07:24] <jdh> df on what?
[14:07:28] <jdh> <urk>
[14:09:19] <tandoori> it has to (at the very least) also be able to mill plastic parts
[14:11:05] <awallin> something similar to a Tormach will be general purpose, but not good for pcb work
[14:11:06] <jdh> you need a mill and a high speed router
[14:11:55] <tandoori> i dont understand why you are saying it wouldnt be good for pcb work.
[14:12:12] <jdh> because, it won't be good for PCB work.
[14:12:28] <tandoori> well i can live with 'fair'
[14:12:45] <JT-Shop> is the 6i25 supported by hostmot2?
[14:12:53] <pcw_home> Yes
[14:13:55] <pcw_home> its just a 5i25 + PCIE-PCI bridge (and will report itself as a 5I25 with 5I25 firmware)
[14:15:10] <tandoori> again, thanks everyone for their input. I think i will just go with a general-purpose something that has satisfactory pcb milling results on youtube
[14:15:30] <tandoori> i may ask again when there are more people around
[14:19:46] <archivist> tandoori, this is about the most popular time in hers as both sides the pond are awake
[14:20:14] <tandoori> huh
[14:20:16] <tandoori> oh
[14:21:21] <archivist> some applications do need multiple machines or a machine that can have a spindle change between jobs
[14:22:02] <tandoori> why a spindle change?
[14:22:17] <archivist> speed
[14:22:24] <tandoori> couldnt i just get a high quality spingle and be done with it?
[14:22:37] <tandoori> lord. i dont care about speed
[14:22:47] <tandoori> i care about versatility
[14:23:09] <tandoori> it can take 5 hours if it wants
[14:24:29] <cradek> this is probably a stupid question, but would someone with a modern windows computer be able to easily handle a zip file of a bunch of jpegs, without having to install extra software? is this how windows users transfer a bunch of files?
[14:28:14] <roycroft> windows users transfer a bunch of files by emailing them
[14:28:17] <archivist> windows, a relic of the past I find hard to help with these days
[14:28:21] <roycroft> usually to everyone on their address list
[14:29:13] <cradek> ok this isn't helping me :-)
[14:29:15] <roycroft> if you're wanting to package something up that you're certain windows users will be able to deal with consider making a self-extracting zip file
[14:29:19] <cradek> I'm asking in the wrong place
[14:29:28] <roycroft> not necessarily
[14:29:48] <roycroft> but when you mention windows you must be prepared to deal with some snarkiness before you get any real answers :)
[14:29:49] <cradek> if you're telling me the standard practice is to send an exe instead, I'll cry
[14:30:08] <roycroft> i'm saying that's the most universal way
[14:30:22] <roycroft> last time i checked, windows didn't even ship with a pdf viewer
[14:30:28] <archivist> I do still see the odd site with zips
[14:30:48] <roycroft> it's a pretty bare-bones os, unless you want to use proprietary windows tools/file formats
[14:31:13] <roycroft> i know i've had to install unarchiving tools on windows
[14:31:26] <archivist> but I also am seeing widows types using PDF as the universal package
[14:31:42] <roycroft> it still requires third-party software, archivist
[14:33:04] <r00t4rd3d> if its in pdf format, everything requires some part of 3rd party code.
[14:33:08] <archivist> pdf is always there these days, and it is the one I get asked for when a point a user at a bunch of jpgs
[14:33:24] <archivist> a I
[14:33:29] <roycroft> no it's not
[14:33:33] <roycroft> i promise you, it's not
[14:33:47] <roycroft> a division of the company i work for is a print shop business
[14:33:50] <roycroft> and we require pdfs
[14:34:04] <roycroft> people send us word documents and they never format as expected
[14:34:28] <roycroft> so we absolutely require pdfs if the customer is not there in person to approve a proof before we run their job
[14:34:45] <roycroft> and at least 90% of our windows-based customers are incapable of producing a pdf
[14:35:18] <archivist> we are talking bucket of jpg not print proof quality
[14:35:22] <roycroft> most who can, who are not graphic arts professionals, use some lame free pdf generator that produces horrible output
[14:36:02] <roycroft> but the horrible output looks identically horrible on the customer's inkjet printer as it does on our fancy printers
[14:37:20] <roycroft> a thumb drive with a directory full of unarchived jpeg images is the other universal option
[14:37:31] <roycroft> which requires, in most cases, no exe
[14:40:19] <fragalot> hm
[14:40:33] <JT-Shop> cradek: what are you needing?
[14:40:36] <fragalot> reckon I could get away with these: http://www.benl.ebay.be/itm/4P-SBR12UU-linear-bearing-pillow-blocks-with-LM12UUOP-Linear-Ball-Bearing-Block-/140725287443?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20c3e17a13 for use on 12mm hardened unsupported rods?
[14:40:55] <fragalot> I can't seem to find LM12UU's that have an adjustment screw other than the open type listed there
[14:41:29] <cradek> JT-Shop: just to send a bunch of jpegs to someone with windows, and unknown skills and unknown extra software installed
[14:42:47] <JT-Shop> windows has a built in viewer
[14:43:08] <JT-Shop> are you sending a CD?
[14:43:29] <fragalot> bah
[14:43:35] <cradek> can you click on a zip and then view or copy out the images inside?
[14:43:42] * fragalot really doesn't want to use open bearings if he doesn't have to
[14:43:45] <JT-Shop> yes
[14:44:06] <JT-Shop> if it is a jpg it is already compressed for the most part
[14:44:09] <cradek> cool, thanks, that's pretty much the information I wanted
[14:44:21] <cradek> yeah I know - it's the combining into one file that's important here
[14:45:02] <archivist> fragalot, are your sure that is an adjustment screw, looks like it could be a retention screw
[14:45:37] <fragalot> archivist: http://www.benl.ebay.be/itm/Pack-4-SBR12UU-12mm-Aluminum-Open-Linear-Router-Motion-Bearing-Shaft-Block-/271116606637?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f1fcf1cad these appear to have both
[14:46:12] <fragalot> i'd much prefer closed ones but I can't seem to find any
[14:46:17] <fragalot> my ebay-fu is weak
[14:47:36] <fragalot> need to replace my SC12LUU's with something adjustable because they're just.. not working
[14:47:45] <tandoori> will that china mill work if i get a better spindle?
[14:48:21] <fragalot> tandoori: which one?
[14:48:35] <tandoori> http://www.aliexpress.com/item/High-Precision-pcb-milling-machine/717002157.html
[14:49:00] <archivist> tandoori, fragalotis trying to fix a chinese mill to be usable for pcb :)
[14:49:19] <tandoori> orly?? awesome
[14:49:41] <fragalot> i'm not finding it all that awesome :P
[14:49:46] <tandoori> aww
[14:49:55] <tandoori> what problems are you having?
[14:49:58] <archivist> there are a few who have had problems with quality
[14:50:43] <fragalot> tandoori: all of the problems that come associated with loose non-adjustable unsupported linear slides, fixed loud 28k rpm spindle with a fair bit of runout, and the bed is bowed
[14:50:48] <fragalot> aside from that, it's an awesome machine!
[14:50:51] <fragalot> >.<
[14:51:11] <tandoori> ugh that looks terrible
[14:51:29] <archivist> very good for training you in the possible faults of a machine
[14:51:55] <fragalot> archivist: always dealt with taiwanese "big" machining centers
[14:51:57] <fragalot> lovely things to work on
[14:52:02] <tandoori> so i should just get the taig and just work within the space m given :-(
[14:53:30] <fragalot> tandoori: "you get what you pay for"
[14:53:47] <archivist> cheap shit is...
[14:53:57] <fragalot> archivist: cheap
[14:53:58] <fragalot> :D
[14:54:00] <tandoori> aye, i really like the taig mills because they are high quality, but the workspace sux
[14:54:13] <fragalot> until you need to upgrade it to get it to work & end up paying more in parts than the machine was worth
[14:54:13] <archivist> best cheap is second hand industrial
[14:54:31] <fragalot> damn you ebay give me some adjustable LM12UU blocks!
[14:55:00] <tandoori> Maximum Travel: X = 9.5", Y = 5.5", Z = 6.0"
[14:55:12] * tandoori cries on archivist's shoulder
[14:56:03] <archivist> tandoori, a number in here have built their own machines to avoid some of the problems
[14:56:08] <fragalot> tandoori: planning on doing big PCB's?
[14:56:28] <tandoori> fragalot: not particularly, but i might in the future
[14:56:58] <tandoori> and im sorry i gave you the wrong dimensons. Table dimensions 3 1/2 x 15 1/2 inches
[14:57:15] <tandoori> its the 3.5 part that has me frowning
[14:57:46] <tandoori> id be stuck with making pcbs longer than they are wide
[14:57:48] <fragalot> also, travel & table size mean fuck all
[14:57:57] <fragalot> it's the work area that's important
[14:59:07] <fragalot> archivist: http://www.benl.ebay.be/itm/Pack-4-SBR12UU-SBR16UU-12mm-13mm-16mm-20mm-Open-Linear-Router-Motion-Bearing-/400356736286?pt=UK_BOI_Industrial_Automation_Control_ET&var=&hash=item9c023186bc -- do these look "adjustable" to you?
[15:00:14] <jdh> a bunch of zipped jpegs should be fine on xp/7/8
[15:00:16] <archivist> no mention of adjustment
[15:00:24] <tandoori> sigh, fine, fine. ill get the taig
[15:00:33] <fragalot> yeah
[15:00:34] <fragalot> :<
[15:00:43] <jdh> tandoori: lots of people get teh taigs and seem happy with them.
[15:01:10] <tandoori> jdh: aye, ive seen many a pcb milling video on youtube with a taig with very nice results
[15:01:27] <jdh> I wanted to make PCBs so I got a router
[15:01:33] <jdh> still haven't really made any PCBs
[15:01:44] <archivist> I just use a PCB company
[15:02:07] <tandoori> hum whats the difference between router and mill?
[15:02:16] <tandoori> or are they interchangable words?
[15:02:27] <jdh> semantics, and/or spindle speed and rigidity
[15:03:31] <tandoori> aye
[15:04:40] <Loetmichel> tandoori: i was told: the difference in spindle speed and tool size and the platform. i.e Gantry= router, knee or column mill = mill ;-)
[15:05:11] <tandoori> hum. which are better? :-P
[15:06:27] <gene77> Allow me to dip an oar in this pcb carving water. I have done it on the HF micro-mill, but this one has very little resemblance to the OEM model, and it was NOT fun.
[15:06:33] <Loetmichel> depends: gantry is usally less rigid but MUCH better for sheet metal (workspace wide and deep but flat, column and knee mills have usually more cubic workspaces and are better for big tools
[15:07:12] <Loetmichel> gene77: this kind? -> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=799
[15:07:17] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=804
[15:07:22] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=814
[15:07:51] <archivist> tandoori, use the right tool for the job, rather than which is better
[15:08:08] <Loetmichel> archivist: thats what i wanted to say ;-)
[15:08:15] <fragalot> adjustable pillow blocks for LM12LUU's don't appear to exist
[15:08:34] <fragalot> i've found some LM12AJ's which appear to be made to be adjusted, but that doesn't give me a pillow block that works
[15:08:37] <fragalot> >.>
[15:09:02] <gene77> Not no, but hell no! This was about a 1.35x2,1" board, for the spindle encoder on my mini-lathe
[15:09:07] <Loetmichel> fragalot: get a saw, a thread cutter and some screws and make one ;-)
[15:09:30] <fragalot> Loetmichel: yeah I reckon that's going to be the way to go
[15:09:46] <archivist> fragalot, not sure they can exist, the adjustable block I have, have a screw across the opening to squeeze the bearing
[15:09:57] <tandoori> Loetmichel: wow those boards look pretty sweet
[15:10:16] <tandoori> what kind of mill did you use for those?
[15:10:31] <Loetmichel> tandoori: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=12569
[15:10:43] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=12578
[15:10:55] <Loetmichel> a little selfbuilt one ;-)
[15:11:32] <jdh> with a floppy disk!
[15:11:35] <fragalot> archivist: well the smaller blocks appear to have 2 screws that seem to work for adjustment
[15:11:40] <fragalot> just can't find the same thing for the long bearings
[15:11:42] <tandoori> sweet what is the size of that workspace, Loetmichel?
[15:11:54] <Loetmichel> 200mm*110mm*110mm
[15:11:59] <fragalot> hell I can't even find fully closed bearing blocks that have 'm for som ereason
[15:12:02] <Loetmichel> ... always to small ;-)
[15:12:16] <fragalot> Loetmichel: retro monitor
[15:12:17] <fragalot> :P
[15:12:20] <Loetmichel> hmm?
[15:12:28] <Loetmichel> to big one
[15:12:32] <fragalot> CRT with builtin speakers
[15:12:33] <fragalot> xD
[15:12:49] <Loetmichel> i would like to have a 10" or 12" woth at least 1024*768
[15:12:57] <Loetmichel> that would fit tha back plate of the mill
[15:13:08] <fragalot> so... tap setscrew holes in my existing LM12LUU blocks & hope for the best?
[15:13:13] <Loetmichel> thats no CRT, thats a TFT 15"
[15:13:19] <fragalot> can't hurt, assuming I ever manage to get those damn bearings out, lol
[15:13:23] <fragalot> Loetmichel: oh
[15:13:26] <fragalot> whoops
[15:14:52] <fragalot> found something that looks good that has a "high accurfange"
[15:14:53] <fragalot> >.>
[15:15:15] <Loetmichel> high WHAT?
[15:15:32] <fragalot> accurfange
[15:15:44] <fragalot> so it can be moved without any difraction
[15:15:54] <fragalot> .. yeah i'm not buying from that guy, lol
[15:17:07] <Loetmichel> hrhr
[15:17:15] <Loetmichel> maybe chinese?
[15:18:02] <Loetmichel> i wouldnt judge the accuracy by the english he speaks. CAN still be good ;-)
[15:19:09] <fragalot> yea, no
[15:19:17] <fragalot> 4 pictures listed of 4 different bearings
[15:19:29] <fragalot> tempted to just get SBR12UU's
[15:20:21] <fragalot> and hope the open design doesn't cause more issues
[15:22:16] <fragalot> oh great
[15:22:28] <fragalot> SMA10UU blocks, SMA13UU blocks, BUT NO 12
[15:24:08] <fragalot> looks like i'll be spending some time @ the mill making my own during my lunch breaks
[15:25:22] <fragalot> http://www.benl.ebay.be/itm/VERY-NICE-THOMSON-SUPER-BALL-BUSHING-PILLOW-BLOCK-SPB-12-ADJ-QTY-12-/350697319253?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item51a7306b55
[15:25:25] <fragalot> VICTORY
[15:27:57] <fragalot> tbf at that price I might aswell buy a whole set of rails and start over, lol
[15:32:23] <archivist> fragalot, but..then the rail has no mid support and therefore is flexible so you need larger diameter for similar stiffness
[15:34:52] <fragalot> ofcourse
[15:34:59] <fragalot> if i replace 'm i'm going for supported shafts anyway
[15:35:43] <fragalot> or I could go for 20mm
[15:35:55] <fragalot> should be OK for a 30cm gap, no?
[15:38:32] <archivist> depends on your deflection requirements
[15:38:49] <fragalot> enough for engraving & pcb milling
[15:39:21] <fragalot> i'm not expecting to ever get 0.01mm results, but 0.05 or better would be neat
[15:39:34] <Loetmichel> archivist: IIRC his mill is only 200 ba 150 mm movement
[15:39:46] <fragalot> main thing is that even if I try and use the mill a shaper it still bows in PTFE >.<
[15:39:48] <Loetmichel> 12 is a bit thin but useable
[15:39:54] <Loetmichel> even without support
[15:39:54] <fragalot> Loetmichel: yea
[15:40:07] <archivist> he may be expanding during refurbishment
[15:40:19] <fragalot> archivist: no
[15:40:44] <fragalot> not going to modify the 12mm thick alu framing
[15:41:04] <fragalot> so if I replace the slides it's going to have to fit in the existing frame
[15:41:08] <fragalot> which is 300mm for the Y
[15:43:03] <fragalot> I'm tempted to get 2 of these and call it a day http://www.benl.ebay.be/itm/1pcs-SBR12-300mm-Linear-shaft-supports-2pcs-SBR12UU-Bearing-Block-Slide-/140775243521?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20c6dbbf01
[15:45:01] <Loetmichel> hmm, in that context: a question to the theoretical mechanics cracks: i have some 20mm prcision ground and chromed tube here with 3mm wall. if i put a threaded m12 rod in t and two nuts and whashers at the ends and tighten them to the max: will the bend less at the same sideways force?
[15:45:37] <Loetmichel> fragalot: if you can mount the supports somewhere?
[15:45:55] <fragalot> Loetmichel: I can make a backplate
[15:46:21] <fragalot> there's a 3mm cover plate in place already along the Y that I could bolt it to that's supported on all sides, so that should be alright
[15:46:57] <Loetmichel> then it should be better than unsupportet MUCH better would be 2 backplates with a 40mm rame in between and a sack of screws (torsion box)
[15:47:23] <Loetmichel> s/rame/frame
[15:47:31] <fragalot> not sure a torsion box is required on a 12mm solid alu frame
[15:47:48] <Loetmichel> cant hurt ;-)
[15:47:50] <fragalot> especially not if the cover plate i'm talking about is only ~10cm tall and supported all 'round
[15:48:54] <fragalot> only thing i'm worried about is the fact that it's got an open bearing with all the loads going towards the opening
[15:48:57] <fragalot> :/
[15:49:33] <fragalot> if I can find some 20mm rods with holes tapped on either end for mounting it in place of the existing ones & adjustable fully enclosed blocks, that'd be great
[15:49:38] <fragalot> but that will be for another day I think
[15:50:26] <fragalot> but now.. sleep
[15:50:42] <DJ9DJ> good night fragalot
[15:52:22] <Loetmichel> fragalot: no friend with a lathe?
[15:52:48] <Loetmichel> to turn some 20mm rod ends down to 12mm and make the tapped ends
[15:54:55] <fragalot> Loetmichel: I want hardened only
[15:55:05] <fragalot> seen too many people go wrong with unhardened rods & bearings
[15:56:58] <JT-Shop> chopper79: did you get the thcud component installed?
[16:00:14] <Connor> fragalot: What are you trying to do?
[16:08:52] <Loetmichel> hmm, noone tht can shed some light on the bending a tube issue?
[16:09:15] <Loetmichel> [22:32] <Loetmichel> hmm, in that context: a question to the theoretical mechanics cracks: i have some 20mm prcision ground and chromed tube here with 3mm wall. if i put a threaded m12 rod in t and two nuts and whashers at the ends and tighten them to the max: will the bend less at the same sideways force?
[16:15:59] <DJ9DJ> gn8
[17:42:03] <r00t4rd3d> 50F out tomorrow :/
[17:42:36] <ReadError> sounds warm
[18:03:18] <jdh> 78F tomorrow
[18:08:33] <Valen> http://cheezburger.com/7012190720
[18:08:56] <Valen> was 116f here last week
[18:14:45] <jdh> nice.
[18:15:39] <jdh> where is here?
[18:27:14] <Valen> jdh: sydney australia
[18:50:06] <spikebike> Valen: ah, the land of record breaking temps so they had to rejigger the temp maps
[18:50:26] <Valen> yeah
[18:50:33] <Valen> hit 55C in the central areas i believe
[19:05:04] <jthornton> why can't ubuntu 10.04 keep time?
[19:05:24] <Valen> jthornton: more details required
[19:06:30] <jthornton> I keep having to set the clock on my linux computers for some reason they don't keep proper time
[19:06:49] <Valen> does it drift over a reboot?
[19:07:04] <Valen> or does it drift slowly over a period of weeks
[19:07:33] <jthornton> seems to slowly drift and never checks the time standard
[19:07:46] <skunkworks> jthornton: I don't think I have ever had that problem
[19:07:46] <jthornton> I only boot when the electricity fails
[19:08:01] <jthornton> I have 2 or 3 that can't keep time
[19:08:18] <skunkworks> they are all on the network?\
[19:08:34] <Valen> terminal
[19:08:36] <Valen> ntpq
[19:08:38] <Valen> lpeers
[19:08:44] <jthornton> yes
[19:08:50] <Valen> should tell you whats going on with times
[19:09:02] <jthornton> ntpq not installed
[19:09:10] <Valen> well theres yer prablem
[19:09:22] <jthornton> lpeers command not found
[19:09:37] <Valen> sounds like you don't have a time client
[19:09:46] <Valen> sudo apt-get install ntpd
[19:10:20] <jthornton> couldn't find package ntpq
[19:10:27] <jthornton> it does find ntp
[19:10:44] <Valen> try just running ntpd
[19:11:07] <Valen> (note the D not q)
[19:11:28] <jthornton> oh crap
[19:11:56] <jthornton> john@zotac:~$ ntpd
[19:11:57] <jthornton> The program 'ntpd' can be found in the following packages:
[19:11:57] <jthornton> * ntp
[19:11:57] <jthornton> * openntpd
[19:12:04] <Valen> that'll do it
[19:12:13] <Valen> apt-get install ntp
[19:12:43] <jthornton> ok
[19:13:00] <jthornton> Setting up ntp (1:4.2.4p8+dfsg-1ubuntu2.1) ...
[19:13:00] <jthornton> * Starting NTP server ntpd [ OK ]
[19:13:21] <Valen> did you get a time jump? (IE the time changed to be right)
[19:13:49] <spikebike> that will take awhile to sync
[19:14:01] <spikebike> afaik ubuntu doesn't do a ntpdate first.
[19:14:05] <spikebike> service ntp stop
[19:14:10] <spikebike> ntpdate <ntpserver>
[19:14:12] <spikebike> then start
[19:14:13] <Valen> i *think* it may on a boot
[19:14:18] <spikebike> Don't think so
[19:14:27] <spikebike> it will however reference the cmos clock
[19:14:28] <jthornton> well I have set the time
[19:14:43] <Valen> that'll do the jump for you jthornton, if its out by more than a little bit it won't try and correct it
[19:14:47] <spikebike> but once ntp syncs up you are good for life
[19:14:52] <Valen> but that should keep your time accurate to a few msec ;->
[19:15:00] <spikebike> it will jump, but not for awhile
[19:15:04] <jthornton> time to start dinner, thanks for the help
[19:15:05] <Jymmm> ha!
[19:15:11] <spikebike> has to characterize the various time sources available
[19:15:26] <Jymmm> cesium clock FTW!
[19:15:57] <spikebike> cesium clocks aren't really clocks
[19:16:00] <spikebike> more like timers
[19:16:17] <Jymmm> so are GPS
[19:16:17] <spikebike> you still need a reference time source
[19:16:25] <spikebike> no gps are clock, they do know what time it is
[19:16:33] <Valen> generally they are more of a frequency standard
[19:16:38] <spikebike> right
[19:16:39] <micges> jthornton: it seems drifting is side effect of running rt task
[19:16:47] <Jymmm> what do you think the master clock is?
[19:17:31] <Jymmm> http://www.usno.navy.mil/USNO/time/master-clock/the-master-clock
[19:18:42] <Valen> they put out a set tick that another doovey will make a time out of
[19:18:59] <Jymmm> goony goo goo
[19:19:46] <Valen> I spose it would be accurate to say a cesium clock, much as people say a quartz clock
[19:20:28] <spikebike> gps's would turn a pc/server into an awesome timesource if the pc clock was not 30x worse than your average $5 chinese wrist watch 8-(
[19:21:08] <Jymmm> If you have a GPS with PPS that is.
[19:21:18] <spikebike> ya
[19:21:33] <spikebike> well the better the reference the less PPS matters
[19:21:54] <Jymmm> Except for leak seconds.
[19:21:57] <Jymmm> leap seconds
[19:22:07] <spikebike> gps handles those
[19:22:20] <Jymmm> with PPS.
[19:22:23] <spikebike> unless you have a buggy one from a decade ago
[19:22:36] <Valen> theres plenty of GPS time references
[19:22:47] <Valen> hell I have a GPS ntp server sitting behind me now
[19:23:00] <Valen> has a rubidium ovened oscilator
[19:23:04] <Jymmm> Valen: who doesn't
[19:23:22] <Valen> my dad found it on the side of the road
[19:24:01] <Valen> literally
[19:24:02] <spikebike> typical desktop/servers can be off by up to 30 seconds a day
[19:24:13] <Valen> the screen is a bit manky on it
[19:24:14] <Jymmm> Go rtfm the ntpd sometime, it's interesting (to a mundane point)
[19:27:45] <Jymmm> Intro http://www.satsignal.eu/ntp/FreeBSD-GPS-PPS.htm
[19:34:55] <Valen> hah what a small world
[19:35:17] <Valen> i know dave heart from rocketry stuff (if its the same one)
[20:33:35] <markvandenborre> if you had about 2500€ and a pc running Debian, and no ambition to build your own cnc
[20:34:09] <markvandenborre> oh, and you'd want to cut 18mm birch plywood
[20:34:44] <markvandenborre> what would you get in terms of (Chinese?) hardware
[20:48:30] <Valen> hmmm, calculating the acceleration of my new mill
[20:48:42] <Valen> coming up at 160G
[20:48:52] <Valen> that seems silly right?
[20:49:46] <Valen> ahh duh
[20:49:50] <Valen> meters per second not G
[20:50:14] <Valen> 33Gs
[20:50:23] <Valen> still silly high
[20:59:18] <skunkworks> I doubt you would get much over 1g...
[21:00:08] <skunkworks> but it is late - and I make even less sense as the night goes on
[21:00:17] <Valen> so do I, so i'm wondering where the mistake in my maths is
[21:00:30] <Valen> 230NM motor
[21:00:40] <Valen> 4:1 gearing to a 5mm lead ballscrew
[21:00:55] <Valen> nets me 660kg worth of force
[21:01:03] <skunkworks> is 1g - 32ft/s^2
[21:01:25] <skunkworks> been a while
[21:01:36] <Valen> 1G = 9.8 meters per second ^2 i think you mean mr "lets crash an orbiter into mars)
[21:01:37] <Valen> ;-P
[21:02:24] <Valen> F=MA so F/M = a 6531N/50kg = 130 m/s/s
[21:02:35] <Valen> 50 kg gantry
[21:02:58] <Valen> its sposed to have 2 drive motors on that axis too which pushes it up to 26G
[21:03:11] <Valen> car crashes are gentler than that
[21:03:18] <Valen> (small ones)
[21:03:34] <jdh> 230NM?
[21:03:42] <Valen> 230 oz inches sorry
[21:03:46] <Valen> 1.6 N/M
[21:04:00] <jdh> taht would be a helluva moter
[21:04:11] <Valen> lol, sure 230NM why not? I'll just hook my car up to the X axis and pop the clutch
[21:04:38] <Valen> (though that'd net me 400+nm of pooowah! lol)
[21:04:59] <skunkworks> are you dividing by the screw?
[21:05:15] <Valen> how do you mean?
[21:05:24] <Valen> converting the torque into linear force?
[21:05:28] <skunkworks> right
[21:05:41] <Valen> i believe so
[21:06:12] <Valen> i have a formula for it, before i mention it do you have one?
[21:06:38] <Valen> I ran the same numbers through a web caluclator and came out with the same answer in reverse
[21:06:50] <skunkworks> no - I am just throwing things out there
[21:08:08] <Valen> ((2*pi * motor torque) / lead in meters) * efficency
[21:10:41] <skunkworks> so - in linuxcnc terms - you would have an accelleration of 9800mm/s^2 for 1G - in english - it would be 385in/s^2 (if I am remembering my maths..)
[21:11:06] <Valen> so i'm getting 261244
[21:11:14] <Valen> I think at the moment i'm running something like 500
[21:11:37] <Valen> this is at the peak torque of the (servo) motor
[21:11:46] <Valen> so i was figuring to get about half of this
[21:11:54] <Valen> but still its feeling way too high
[21:12:13] <Valen> I'm trying to determine the gear ratio to trade off acceleration vs top speed
[21:15:23] <r00t4rd3d> i got 12.04 LTS running with a rtai kernel :D
[21:15:31] <Valen> handy
[21:15:34] <skunkworks> I doubt if cradek machine was approaching 1g and it was thumping the floor.
[21:18:13] <skunkworks> r00t4rd3d: http://imagebin.org/244707
[21:22:25] <Valen> urgh unity interface
[21:22:34] <Valen> I vote 12.04 moves to xfce for the base
[21:23:03] <Valen> hows it compare with 10.04 skunkworks?
[21:25:12] <Connor> I Really hate the Unity Desktop manager...
[21:25:18] <Connor> or whatever they're using now..
[21:25:36] <Connor> Truth be told.. I don't even use the stock one on 10.04 on my main machine...
[21:26:18] <Connor> I run something called Avant Window Manager..
[21:26:35] <Connor> err.. Avant Windows Navigator..
[21:28:51] <Valen> haven't heard of it
[21:29:22] <Connor> https://launchpad.net/awn/
[21:29:31] <Valen> thats just a dock not a window manager though isnt it?
[21:29:46] <Valen> though i spose being called window manager one would hope lol
[21:29:55] <Valen> bah
[21:30:06] <Valen> window navigator, that'll learn me to read stuff
[21:30:08] <Connor> Runs on top of GNOME.
[21:30:21] <Valen> unity replaces gnome
[21:30:34] <Valen> you need to add gnome to 12.04 and then its gnome 3 or something
[21:30:47] <Connor> Yea. I've not went to 12.04
[21:30:57] <Connor> probably wont on my main machine..
[21:31:05] <Valen> i have it on my desktop, you can hack it back to a gnome2 alike thing
[21:31:28] <Connor> Might try it on a virtual machine. :)
[21:31:37] <Valen> heres a question, if i know the acceleration how do i calculate how fast it could cut a circle of a set size
[21:31:56] <Valen> the only reason i don't use xfce for my main desktop is lack of the vfs
[21:32:25] <Connor> vfs the file system ?
[21:32:32] <Valen> virtual file system
[21:33:01] <Valen> ie i can whack sftp://foo@bar.com into nautilus and it'll let me browse the folders on a remote machine via ssh
[21:33:13] <Valen> i know i can do it all on the command line, but thats just so handy
[21:33:22] <Valen> and it integrates with gedit and such
[21:34:19] <Connor> What's IPM for your cut ?
[21:34:28] <Valen> thats what I'm trying to work out
[21:34:40] <Valen> given acceleration and diam of circle, what would the max IPM be
[21:34:51] <Valen> (well what is the time taken, but still)
[21:34:57] <Connor> Ahh.
[21:35:13] <Valen> its disturbinly close to my orbital mechanics classes
[21:35:20] <Valen> finally a use for my degree lol
[21:35:50] <Connor> No clue.. I know Pi would be involved. :)
[21:36:15] <Valen> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbital_period#Small_body_orbiting_a_central_body and solve it all for acceleration rather than G ;->
[21:40:34] <Valen> bah acceleration = v^2 / R
[21:40:48] <Valen> i really should have done circular motion in high school lol
[21:42:52] <pcw_home> You will often find that the motor and ballscrew rotational inertia is the main limit on acceleration
[21:43:04] <Valen> thats what I figured too
[21:43:20] <Valen> We were planning on doing rotating ball nuts to try to compensate for that
[21:43:39] <Valen> it looks like I will need to put the screw inertia into this to get somewhere near right
[21:44:09] <Valen> thanks for the heads up though pcw_home i had forgotten that in this calculation
[21:44:36] <Valen> do you think rotating nuts would help reduce cyclical errors in ballscrews?
[21:45:33] <pcw_home> I dont know
[21:46:19] <Valen> I was mainly thinking things like the bend in the screws for cheap rolled ballscrews and the like
[21:46:47] <pcw_home> what pitch/gearing are you using?
[21:47:21] <Valen> I was planning on 4:1 with 5mm lead
[21:48:45] <Valen> hmm, trying to determine that cutting velocity
[21:48:58] <pcw_home> motor max speed?
[21:49:10] <Valen> 3300 continious rating
[21:49:30] <Valen> with a 10mm radius (20mm diam) circle and 26G of acceleration i get a feed rate of 1.6 meters a minute
[21:50:50] <Valen> hah, .04 seconds
[21:51:30] <pcw_home> 1/4 3300 with some good (30% or so) margin is 600 so 10 RPS = 50 mm/s or 120 IPM so fairly slow
[21:52:53] <Valen> yes, I am trying to work out gear ratios for acceleration and top speed
[21:53:31] <Valen> we want to cut gears for wooden clocks and profile small wooden things so acceleration is a primary factor
[21:54:21] <Valen> 1:1 i get 6G of acceleration with 2 motors
[21:54:31] <Valen> top speed of 16 meters a minute
[21:54:46] <Valen> 629 ipm
[21:55:10] <Valen> and a cutting speed of .8 meters per minute on a 20mm diamiter circle
[21:55:20] <Valen> thats still ~13 circles per second
[21:55:42] <Valen> so probably max achievable would be around half or less of that
[21:56:04] <pcw_home> I suspect that will be harder than you think
[21:56:07] <Valen> thats neglecting rotating inertia
[21:56:47] <Valen> this i know lol, I am just trying to find the mistakes in the maths
[21:56:50] <Valen> i know its wrong
[21:56:51] <Valen> by lots
[21:56:54] <Valen> and lots lol
[21:57:21] <pcw_home> you can figure out the bare motor acceleration from the motor specs
[21:58:21] <Valen> inertia of the screw should be easy enough to come across too
[21:59:50] <pcw_home> 1-->1 = 250 mm/sec at 3000 RPM so you have to get there in 25 ms for 1G
[22:01:25] <pcw_home> That is pushing the motor pretty hard ~ 3000 RPM in 1/2 turn!
[22:02:28] <Valen> stick 20A into it with a low inertia motor one would presume it'd be designed for it
[22:02:38] <Valen> the acceleration on those pick n place machines must be insane
[22:03:04] <Valen> its feeling like the acceleration due to static inertia is going to be dwarfed by the rotational inertia of the system
[22:03:20] <pcw_home> Yes but the head it pretty light, and fancier ones use linear motors
[22:03:32] <Valen> rather
[22:04:06] <Valen> pcw_home: don't misunderstand, I'm not spouting these numbers saying I'm going to hit them, i'm spouting them in shock and horror at how wrong i must be ;->
[22:04:22] <pcw_home> :-)
[22:06:10] <Valen> gut feel think 230nm motors are sufficent for this?
[22:06:13] <Valen> peak
[22:06:57] <Valen> it feels low, but without going to mag motors i don't think i'm going to get better torque per amp anywhere
[22:07:32] <pcw_home> 230 NM is an enormous amount of torque (170 ft lbs)
[22:07:37] <Valen> bah
[22:07:41] <Valen> i keep mixing that unit
[22:07:45] <Valen> 230 ozin
[22:08:15] <Valen> i try to keep everything SI but its hard when nothing is rated in it ;->
[22:08:24] <pcw_home> thats a lot different...
[22:08:28] <Valen> rather
[22:08:32] <Valen> ~2NM
[22:09:40] <pcw_home> Is that peak?
[22:09:44] <Valen> yes
[22:09:56] <Valen> http://www.automationtechnologiesinc.com/products-page/nema23-m-dc-servo-motor/skewed-servo-dual-shaft-3 is the motor
[22:10:06] <Valen> I'm trying to size it to fit mesa drives ;->
[22:10:54] <Valen> hmm http://www.automationtechnologiesinc.com/products-page/nema-34-dc-servo-motor/nema34-1125ozin-dual-shaft-servo-motor is around twice the oz-in/amp
[22:11:43] <Valen> 2x the price and 4x the weight though ;->
[22:13:32] <pcw_home> first does sound fairly small (150W) second more like 700W = 1 HP
[22:13:34] <pcw_home> how big and heavy is your machine?
[22:13:54] <Valen> work area is ~1.2 meters to a side
[22:14:13] <Valen> looks like the gantry XYZ is around 50-70kg
[22:14:39] <pcw_home> I suspect the second motor or one in between would be better
[22:15:12] <Valen> I was trying to match the motor to the drives
[22:15:31] <pcw_home> which drives?
[22:15:32] <Valen> the 20A current limit is a little limiting
[22:15:42] <Valen> whats the big mesa one again?
[22:15:58] <pcw_home> 7I29
[22:17:07] <pcw_home> We have been considering doing it in 2 oz copper (we have some other new drives with 2 oz)
[22:17:09] <pcw_home> and making a lower voltage 35 or 40A version
[22:18:23] <pcw_home> also a sserial drive is on the way that could drive the bigger motor
[22:43:32] <Valen> looks like the interweb is back
[22:43:56] <Valen> would you need to drop the voltage?
[22:44:30] <Valen> most of the difficulty is in the support electronics, parralleling a few fets and adding a fan to the heat sink would be nice pcw_home
[22:48:36] <Valen> see how easy that was ;->