#linuxcnc | Logs for 2012-12-27

[00:08:20] <tjb1> Jymmmy
[00:14:28] <abetusk> anyone have any experience with gerber to gcode conversion?
[01:22:31] <tjb1> www.woot.com is having a woot-off for anyone interested
[01:35:49] <cblack30> Anyone know if the Mesa 7I87 smart serial analog input card is supported in emc?
[02:23:31] <DJ9DJ> moin
[03:12:12] <theos> moin
[04:11:35] <mk0> is it possible to install master-sim from buildbot on 12.10?
[04:52:39] <Loetmichel> mornin'
[05:30:33] <qguy> hi.
[05:30:54] <qguy> is there any open hardware board you can use with emc instead of the parallel port?
[05:40:23] <jthornton> what is an "open hardware board"?
[05:40:50] <qguy> something you can solder on a board of your own making, compile the firmware, and flash it, without any restrictions.
[05:41:51] <jthornton> like a PCI card?
[05:42:01] <qguy> or like an usb device
[05:42:23] <jthornton> usb will not work for motion control with LinuxCNC
[05:42:26] <archivist> usb is not really an option because of usb latency problems
[05:42:48] <qguy> well..
[05:43:09] <qguy> what if you dump data that describes how to take acceleration and blends?
[05:43:14] <archivist> we get this on a regular basis
[05:43:20] <qguy> hah
[05:43:26] <qguy> i suppose so.
[05:43:37] <jthornton> sure that will work you just have to write the software to use it
[05:44:17] <qguy> I made something around an arm device, that can generate 6 independent pulses and the way the pulses, from control data over an USB link
[05:44:30] <archivist> you have to move a large part of linuxcnc to the external device
[05:45:07] <qguy> well.. I'm trying to move just the HAL part which deals with time differences between succesive pulses.
[05:46:06] <qguy> i've thought of a rather simple way to make blends/accelerations - i'm sending along with the division factors from the main clock (which derive the step pulses), some derivative values, each x pulses, add y to the division factors.
[05:46:07] <archivist> the trajectory planner is realtime and is the real controller, hal is mainly the interconnections
[05:46:25] <qguy> which.. works. i can get accelerations and blending, at a rather primitve level.
[05:46:43] <qguy> ah.
[05:47:06] <qguy> i've been reading the documents, but I suppose the secrets lie in the source :)
[05:47:12] <qguy> well.
[05:47:49] <archivist> you can take a large lump and feed it by nml messages
[05:48:11] <qguy> the reason I'm asking is because I've been trying to integrate it with - avoiding autoban bots - m-a-c-h3, and it turns out, their USB controllers use exactly the same algorithm for handling accelerations and the same trick - dump interpreted g code into "accelerated data"
[05:48:45] <jthornton> why not just use mack
[05:48:48] <qguy> uuhh.. and now I'm confused :)
[05:49:04] <qguy> well, because linuxcnc is much more flexible
[05:49:11] <archivist> trying to integrate with makshift is a bit silly
[05:49:16] <jthornton> that is for sure
[05:49:25] <qguy> and it's getting outdated fast
[05:49:36] <archivist> so just use linuxcnc porblem solved
[05:49:41] <jthornton> why not make a pci card like the Mesa card
[05:50:05] <qguy> the paraport stopped working on win7/64, and Art didn't fix it..
[05:50:23] <qguy> well, because you can't shove that into a laptop or *gasp* netbook
[05:50:46] <archivist> forget windows specially with 8 and other carp
[05:50:56] <qguy> here's what I'm thinking: you can't dump raw pulses over USB, obviously
[05:51:09] <qguy> but you can dump a method of generating them, like I'm doing right now.
[05:51:19] <qguy> at the simplest level, just the time difference between a lot of them.
[05:51:50] <archivist> you can put a large part of linuxcnc on an arm board and communicate via nml messages
[05:52:02] <qguy> but I'm thinking there must be something smarter I can find in the guts of linuxcnc - specifically, the part that get blending/accelerations, and use _those_ values to generate my pulses.
[05:52:32] <jthornton> you just have to read and understand the source and your all set
[05:52:37] <qguy> this way a computer can do traj planning, and a separate board can do pulsing.
[05:52:43] <archivist> and someone is working on an arm port at the moment
[05:52:43] <qguy> haha, yeah >< that's why I'm here
[05:52:50] <qguy> ah.
[05:52:53] <qguy> that sounds awesome
[05:53:09] <archivist> the external box gets the trajectory planner
[05:53:53] <qguy> by that logic, you can just dump the G code over the serial link and interpret it too...
[05:54:44] <archivist> you should read the last two months of the developers mailing list
[05:55:28] <archivist> the natural cut is currently at the nml messaging not gcode
[05:56:26] <Loetmichel> re @ home
[05:58:46] <archivist> some are messaging over the network from the display to an embedded board
[05:58:49] <skunkworks> mesa does have a External PCIE board... (that I think works with linuxcnc...) but you would still need a laptop with e-pcie and it would have to run realtime decently.
[06:17:44] <qguy> hmm. this does seem like quite an undertaking.
[06:18:17] <qguy> ..and I thought integrating the pulse generator with PC software would be the easy part
[06:21:16] <qguy> I can always run an extra real time thread to _sample_ the parallel port output pins, figure the time difference, accumulate a few seconds worth of pulses, and dump that into my device, hehehe
[06:22:52] <IchGuckLive> hi all around the World
[06:31:28] <qguy> archivist: you do seem to know a lot about the internals of emc2. would you say there's some specific starting point for what I need?
[06:32:11] <archivist> a couple of months reading the source
[06:32:37] <archivist> reading some docs of how it works
[06:32:43] <qguy> I suppose 4.20. EMC_TRAJ_LINEAR_MOVE_TYPE is what I need for starters (sends a linear move from the interp to motion, 220), since I'd be essentialy replacing EMCMOT?
[06:32:59] <qguy> ah well, mostly that.
[06:33:59] <archivist> and then something like http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/EMC2/remote_notes.html
[06:34:09] <archivist> where you can see the blocks
[06:36:23] <archivist> I dont know the code that well but know where the cut is easiest to make to move the control into a remote pc
[06:39:23] <qguy> now I get your "natural cut" remark :) I was wondering what that was...
[06:41:01] <archivist> so your gui reads gcode talks nml to a linuxcnc instance in another box via some communication medium
[06:42:01] <archivist> you should find some examples people have setup
[06:44:52] <archivist> but if you read recent threads on the developer mailing list you can see some work on ARM that you could join in on and help test
[06:46:23] <archivist> save you reinventing all the wheel as many try to :)
[06:46:50] <jthornton> a couple of times a week it seems :)
[06:47:44] <archivist> even I got the treatment about 5 years ago
[06:47:53] <qguy> the treatment?
[06:48:07] <archivist> told why usb is no good etc
[06:48:27] <qguy> well, initially I thought I can just write my own motion controller, around the protocol I already use
[06:48:55] <qguy> is USB still a bad choice if you dump higher level data than raw pulses?
[06:49:26] <archivist> the latency can be very bad
[06:50:02] <archivist> device discovery drops back to usb 1 speeds
[06:50:16] <qguy> well, if you have other transactions on the bus, yeah ><
[06:51:24] <archivist> you dont know what the pc maker has shoved on a particular usb port eg is it a hub inside the pc
[06:51:32] <qguy> ideally one shouldn't mess with a machine while it's cutting, but I've seen farmville break diamond bits :P
[06:51:49] <qguy> well, you can view that if you really want to
[06:52:54] <qguy> I think that can be solved easily - you offload all the data before running it, and the external device runs it; the connection is kept just for non-critical stuff, like visualizing progress or chaning feed rates
[06:53:25] <archivist> emergency stop
[06:53:48] <qguy> having that routed through software is a bad idea IMO
[06:54:38] <qguy> but you can have the emergency stop on your motion controller then
[06:55:02] <qguy> which could probably be neat too, you can get one of those big red mushroom buttons, instead of a tiny F1 key :)
[09:39:40] <IchGuckLive> hia all
[09:48:32] <JT-Shop> hi
[09:49:57] <IchGuckLive> JT-Shop: do you know howto customise the Docs so its in my hometown language
[09:50:06] <IchGuckLive> the packets are installed
[09:50:19] <IchGuckLive> the files are here
[09:50:26] <IchGuckLive> but howtostart
[09:58:05] <JBFromOZ> does anyone have experience with chinese 4th axis eg http://www.ebay.com/itm/cnc-router-4axis-rotary-axis-4th-axis-A-axis-for-the-engraving-machine-/221167774248?
[09:58:51] <IchGuckLive> JBFromOZ: depending on use
[09:58:58] <IchGuckLive> price is ok for that
[09:59:09] <IchGuckLive> cand you build it your own
[09:59:34] <JBFromOZ> i've got a herless mill, looking to add something like that for gear cutting (indexing for hob)
[10:00:03] <IchGuckLive> it is limited in pricision
[10:00:22] <IchGuckLive> as you see its 1 on 4
[10:00:38] <IchGuckLive> so you got 1600 pricise points at 360deg
[10:01:02] <archivist> JBFromOZ, are you confusing hobbing with gear milling
[10:01:12] <IchGuckLive> if you go higher it is up to the controler and Voltige to hold the force
[10:01:55] <JBFromOZ> archivist: considering 2 options for a project, cutting 32DP gearset for an old CVA toolroom lathe
[10:02:03] <IchGuckLive> JBFromOZ: europ or USA
[10:02:12] <archivist> hobbing is a continuous process no indexing
[10:02:15] <JBFromOZ> one is concentric cut hob, other is spiral cut hob
[10:02:57] <archivist> OZ is neither usa or eu
[10:03:07] <archivist> its upside down
[10:03:12] <JBFromOZ> heh yeah
[10:03:26] <archivist> we had a CVA at the last job
[10:03:33] <IchGuckLive> AUstralia so its hot there
[10:03:44] <JBFromOZ> its cool at moment, inside with aircon
[10:03:52] <IchGuckLive> O.O
[10:04:17] <archivist> milling cutter are not called hobs :)
[10:04:19] <JBFromOZ> outside its still 30 C at midnight
[10:04:48] <JBFromOZ> wanting to cut a set of these gears: http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:37795
[10:05:35] <JBFromOZ> to do metric threading on the CVA
[10:06:06] <JBFromOZ> got 127 tooth and 154 tooth gears to do, along with the smaller ranges,
[10:06:16] <JBFromOZ> so 1600 not going to divide in so well
[10:06:37] <JBFromOZ> 12.598 steps
[10:07:36] <archivist> high count gears should not be made on low accuracy dividing heads, the worm/gear internally can be a lot worse than the stepper resolution
[10:07:37] <IchGuckLive> you can go higher with microstepping
[10:08:12] <JBFromOZ> so is it likely the stepper is 0.3 degree steps, with 6:1 reduction via belt/pulley
[10:08:44] <JBFromOZ> or is 0.3 degree at the chuck
[10:08:47] <archivist> I need to write a page on how the dividing head itself adds error
[10:10:06] <IchGuckLive> worm 90:1 is best in calculation with steppers times 400
[10:10:27] <IchGuckLive> gives you 36000 steps
[10:10:48] <IchGuckLive> so scale is 100
[10:11:02] <IchGuckLive> and 0.01 deg is good
[10:11:39] <IchGuckLive> JBFromOZ: does meadler sel to the Australia
[10:11:42] <JBFromOZ> worm 90:1 in a different otem?
[10:11:57] <JBFromOZ> IchGuckLive, I do not know, havent heard of them
[10:12:27] <archivist> see also http://www.micromo.com/microstepping-myths-and-realities.aspx
[10:12:46] <JBFromOZ> ahh yeah got lots of mythical microstepping fun in the #reprap game
[10:13:11] <archivist> where microstepping may well not be any improvement at all
[10:13:28] <JBFromOZ> not from an accuracy point of view no
[10:13:58] <IchGuckLive> JBFromOZ: http://maedler.de/Article/32209000.aspx
[10:14:05] <archivist> you could just change the pulleys on that design
[10:14:50] <archivist> I see no accuracy specification on that worm wheel
[10:15:39] <JBFromOZ> so use a stepper driving that worm, then driving the chuck
[10:16:00] <IchGuckLive> archivist get the pdf
[10:16:57] <IchGuckLive> http://smarthost.maedler.de/datenblaetter/praezischnecken_EN.pdf
[10:18:25] <JBFromOZ> hmm found another that refers to 3:1 and 0.6degree per step, so likely a 1.8" nema,
[10:18:37] <JBFromOZ> 1.8? even
[10:18:44] <JBFromOZ> blergh
[10:19:14] <archivist> I still dont see any angular gear set accuracy, those are specified for power transmission not angular precision as far as I can see
[10:19:22] <IchGuckLive> JBFromOZ: anything below 30:1 is bad
[10:19:44] <IchGuckLive> archivist page 3
[10:19:51] <IchGuckLive> backlash
[10:20:16] <archivist> that is not angular error in one direction
[10:20:35] <archivist> should be in parts of a degree
[10:22:19] <JBFromOZ> hmm what about just adding a stepper to the manual dividing head,
[10:22:34] <archivist> that is what I have done
[10:23:06] <IchGuckLive> thats the best way to do it
[10:23:12] <archivist> I have used a Vertex rotary which does have a published angular error
[10:23:27] <JBFromOZ> i can check gearing etc, figure out accuracy, hoping that the existing dividing head is somewhat accurate
[10:24:05] <JBFromOZ> saw a vid today where the 4th axis was electronically connected to the z
[10:24:24] <JBFromOZ> sorry not Z, milling head
[10:24:42] <JBFromOZ> optical encoder to tie the 4th axis to the cutter
[10:24:49] <JBFromOZ> for use with spiral hob
[10:25:13] <IchGuckLive> im off see you at 19:00 Berlin time
[10:25:20] <JBFromOZ> any cheap and cheerful ways to get a position off the cutter?
[10:25:42] <archivist> to test a random rotary, cut a high count gear at a large diameter, use a digital vernier over a number of teeth and work your way around the gear looking for min (reset to 0 as you go) when finished the second lap you will see a maximum
[10:26:04] <JBFromOZ> ok cool
[10:26:25] <JBFromOZ> thanks
[10:26:42] <archivist> I have seen some very poor rotaries
[10:27:19] <archivist> nearly .7 degree peak to peak error
[10:27:51] <JBFromOZ> hmm
[10:30:41] <archivist> we had some gears returned :)
[10:31:29] * JBFromOZ has much to learn, and is not producing for others, so can be a little forgiving of errors whilst learning
[10:31:38] <archivist> had to learn to measure the the rotary dividing heads we had access to, one of the 5 was ok
[10:32:48] <archivist> a lot of the time you can be "good enough", where I worked he had been happy for 20 years, till we did the specials
[10:32:54] <JBFromOZ> cutting a tooth at a time, then indexing? or continuous feeding?
[10:33:25] <archivist> milling, tooth at a time
[10:34:27] <archivist> if hobbing then some of the error will be hidden but will show as excess and varying backlash
[10:35:06] <archivist> likely wont notice for ordinary work
[10:36:46] <JBFromOZ> was thinking to try something like this
[10:36:52] <JBFromOZ> http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/f13/gear-cutting-hob-4660/
[10:37:40] <JBFromOZ> set to 20degree PA index a tooth at a time,
[10:38:03] <JBFromOZ> which cuts flats instead of a continuous invlute
[10:38:39] <archivist> ugh
[10:39:17] <JBFromOZ> alternative is to make something up like this.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJ8kyC_bpHs
[10:40:01] <archivist> either gear spindle to rotary and really hob or gear mill
[10:40:42] <JBFromOZ> are there cheap and cheerful ways to gear spindle to rotary?
[10:41:05] <archivist> yes if you are using linuxcnc
[10:41:19] <JBFromOZ> not sure how to get an encoder on the rotary to know where it is at
[10:42:27] <JBFromOZ> hmm rotary is 4th axis, i mean spindle yeah?
[10:42:52] <archivist> you put the encoder on the spindle and gear in software the rotary follows
[10:42:58] <archivist> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhICrb0Tbn4
[10:44:56] <JBFromOZ> just not sure where i can sit the encoder on http://www.flickr.com/photos/87180506@N08/8315104556/in/set-72157632353641139/
[10:47:58] <archivist> some have opened a cover on the head and put a hall effect sensor near a drive gear
[10:48:55] <archivist> you do need a once per rev index as well
[10:49:13] <JBFromOZ> that has potential, any how-to's or wikis on that kind of thing?
[10:49:59] <JBFromOZ> ahh ok
[10:51:05] <archivist> I think you should find links in the log for here and also the user mailing list
[10:51:46] <JBFromOZ> ok cool thank you
[11:17:32] <IchGuckLive> rain all over here water is climbing fast in the rivers
[11:19:24] <JBFromOZ> woot its dropped to 27 degrees
[11:19:41] <JBFromOZ> might be able to get some sleep
[11:20:11] <JBFromOZ> thanks for all the advice its been very helpful cheers
[11:20:28] <IchGuckLive> our brazilian folks still sweed
[11:20:55] <IchGuckLive> JBFromOZ: what time do you got the 28th at your polace
[11:21:08] <JBFromOZ> 1 AM
[11:22:19] <IchGuckLive> thats western time perth
[11:22:39] <JBFromOZ> yup
[11:22:41] <IchGuckLive> West Australia Daylight Time (WADT)
[11:23:00] <kwallace> http://pico-systems.com/bridge_spindle.html
[11:23:05] <JBFromOZ> preparing for 40 degrees again tomorrow
[11:23:05] <IchGuckLive> im in germany Pairis,Berlin time
[11:23:34] <IchGuckLive> 6am 27th
[11:24:26] <IchGuckLive> always a plesure to watch sydney firerworks
[11:25:05] <JBFromOZ> kwallace, cheers :-)
[11:30:08] <archivist> the other one with pictures is by andypugh but cannot remember where he put the pictures
[11:42:38] <L84Supper> http://www.tankmuseum.org/ anyone ever visit there? Worth a trip for the exhibitions?
[11:43:16] <IchGuckLive> tanks are always worth a visit
[11:43:35] <L84Supper> Tiger day is March 13
[11:52:20] <archivist> not been yet
[11:53:42] <archivist> I want to ask questions in the archive when I do as the first research over here was 4 miles away at a car manufacturing company
[11:55:12] <IchGuckLive> the world is so little
[11:57:26] <L84Supper> IchGuckLive: What are the science and tech museums to check out when in Germany?
[11:57:44] * archivist slaps the archive not finding the right baguley
[12:00:48] <L84Supper> www.deutsches-museum.de ?
[12:03:00] <awallin_> according to my blog, in 2008 I visited these:
[12:03:06] <awallin_> http://www.museum.hu-berlin.de/index.html
[12:03:15] <awallin_> http://www.dtmb.de/
[12:03:25] <awallin_> http://www.dtmb.de/Spectrum/index.html
[12:03:31] <awallin_> all in Berlin
[12:06:33] <L84Supper> thanks
[12:07:11] <archivist> as the tank museum is in britain when are you coming here then
[12:13:03] <IchGuckLive> L84Supper: where in germany are yoiu visitiing South noth ?
[12:14:12] * JT-Shop tosses the last weeks worth of parts in the scrap bin
[12:14:42] <pcw_home> Thats not good
[12:14:57] <L84Supper> IchGuckLive: stopovers are usually through Frankfurt
[12:15:23] <IchGuckLive> best is Spayer but its 130km away
[12:15:33] <L84Supper> so it depends if I take 1 or 3 days
[12:16:00] <IchGuckLive> http://speyer.technik-museum.de/
[12:16:02] <L84Supper> same for the UK
[12:16:24] <L84Supper> London Heathrow
[12:19:18] <archivist> dorset is some distance for heathrow
[12:20:06] <L84Supper> so I'd make that a long weekend trip
[12:21:45] <L84Supper> and since it's not the US, trains go 300kph vs 70 :)
[12:22:22] <IchGuckLive> L84Supper: i forgot the famos senckenberg http://www.senckenberg.de/root/index.php?page_id=71&PHPSESSID=i92n221poe1d1j4lfp8760q0jpbnj1co
[12:22:35] <IchGuckLive> this is it in frankfurt direct
[12:23:01] <archivist> trouble with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanks_in_World_War_I there was a vehicle before the first they quote
[12:23:16] <ReadError> http://farm8.static.flickr.com/7151/6707890107_a3bfd949d0.jpg
[12:23:22] <ReadError> what tool do you suppose they used for that?
[12:23:25] <IchGuckLive> L84Supper: http://www.senckenberg.de/root/index.php?page_id=5256
[12:23:31] <ReadError> it looks like a cutoff wheel
[12:23:36] <ReadError> but the diameter is small
[12:27:12] <archivist> ReadError, some cheat and hob with a screw cutting tap
[12:27:25] <L84Supper> IchGuckLive: http://speyer.technik-museum.de/en/en/boeing-747 impressive mounting
[12:27:42] <IchGuckLive> its a freek how owns it
[12:28:40] <ReadError> cheat and hob?
[12:29:39] <L84Supper> also makes it easy to spot when arriving by car
[12:29:42] <archivist> a tap is not a proper side cutting tool so it is cheating to use it that way
[12:30:33] <archivist> ReadError, but just grind up a fly cutter to make it
[12:30:55] <IchGuckLive> L84Supper: the cathedral is mutch larger
[12:30:57] <L84Supper> nice cheat for DIY and reprap extruders
[12:31:30] <L84Supper> those people ask about how to best cut threaded rods :)
[12:31:52] <L84Supper> hacksaw vs kitchen utility knife
[12:32:17] <archivist> but the shop...it has threaded rod
[12:33:58] <L84Supper> Frankfurt to Speyer must only be ~1 hour by train
[12:34:30] <L84Supper> including waiting on the platform
[12:34:47] <IchGuckLive> exactly 1:04hr
[12:35:03] <IchGuckLive> round trip is 30USD
[12:35:22] <L84Supper> oh i forgot, the trains actually ruin on a schedule, not like here where it's just a suggestion
[12:49:07] <Loetmichel> L84Supper: the "russian concorde" looks evem more intriguing
[12:49:14] <Loetmichel> at the same museum
[12:52:26] <Loetmichel> nearby
[12:53:15] <IchGuckLive> Loetmichel: TU144
[12:54:32] <Loetmichel> tupolev something, yes
[12:55:02] <Loetmichel> i meant the incline they fittet that plane on the roof.. loks like it will fall down the very next moment ;-)
[12:55:09] <Loetmichel> (on you)
[12:55:50] <L84Supper> http://www.deutsches-museum.de/en/collections/transport/aeronautics/jets/messerschmitt-me-262/
[12:56:35] <L84Supper> and a Me163 as well
[12:56:47] <IchGuckLive> yea thats the one the US tock in full reconstruct as part of B2 creation
[12:58:26] <L84Supper> http://www.mhmbundeswehr.de/ also looks interesting
[12:58:48] <archivist> Duxford is a must for aircraft museums in the UK
[12:59:22] <L84Supper> I have to see those train museums as well
[12:59:54] <archivist> so many
[13:00:43] <L84Supper> when awake, 50% museum time, 40% pub time, ~10% travel and misc :)
[13:00:57] <archivist> you would need a month or three to get around a few rail museums
[13:02:37] <archivist> I did speak to a rail inspector who made a surprise to one where I was volunteering and he said in the hundreds iirc
[13:02:55] <archivist> surprise visit
[13:04:31] <archivist> we have some mighty stationary steam to see too
[13:05:45] <L84Supper> they still make new ones in China
[13:06:17] <IchGuckLive> china has opend the longest fast train raillane in the world
[13:06:29] <archivist> we made a new steam loco in the uk recently
[13:07:13] <L84Supper> IchGuckLive: it's great. I travel on it. 325kph between towns
[13:07:52] <IchGuckLive> the new one have you been emong the US goverment tour
[13:08:01] <L84Supper> archivist: how does it look?
[13:08:49] <IchGuckLive> US BigBoy is still the largest
[13:09:07] <archivist> L84Supper, http://www.a1steam.com/
[13:09:54] <L84Supper> IchGuckLive: I might be on that new line in Jan
[13:10:00] <IchGuckLive> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Pacific_Big_Boy
[13:10:37] <L84Supper> archivist: I was wondering how they would style it
[13:11:02] <L84Supper> old school or something modern even though it's steam
[13:16:33] <archivist> we have three sites a bit like Dearborn in the UK too
[13:16:46] <IchGuckLive> im off by till tomorrow
[13:16:53] <L84Supper> yes, like the H. Ford museum
[13:17:31] <archivist> yup been there, didnt like the woman like a tape recorder
[13:18:03] <L84Supper> did you see the ruins of Detroit as well :)
[13:18:28] <archivist> dont think it was ruins when I came over
[13:20:01] <L84Supper> http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/2349112/posts Hiroshima vs Detroit -- 64 years later :)
[13:22:27] <archivist> we have seen it on TV over here recently
[13:23:14] <L84Supper> a decline of the US documentary?
[13:24:00] <archivist> something like that
[13:24:36] <archivist> but similar happens all over when the work gets shipped to cheap wage countries
[13:24:50] <L84Supper> you notice it a lot more when you travel back to the US. At first it was all the for sale/rent empty commercial property everywhere
[13:26:27] <L84Supper> now i really notice the decay of the infrastructure, especially bridges, roads and trains
[13:27:04] <archivist> unions should never have priced themselves out of work
[13:27:47] <archivist> some wage is better than none
[13:28:47] <L84Supper> they never should have let banks run with so little regulation
[13:29:32] <archivist> the greed of the financial sector, not just banks
[13:29:43] <L84Supper> and those in office
[13:29:51] <L84Supper> it was all just sold out
[13:31:00] <L84Supper> I can import just about anything into the US with no duties from China, but not the other way around
[13:31:59] <pcw_home> so much for free trade
[13:32:45] <L84Supper> the actual regulation is generally the opposite of how it is titled
[13:33:37] <L84Supper> I was surprise by how much people would tolerate in the US
[13:34:16] <pcw_home> Pretty much government by lobby
[13:35:07] <L84Supper> evil genius
[13:39:41] <L84Supper> trying to find something similar to silk screen frames to hold polymer films under tension
[13:40:14] <pcw_home> solder stencil frame?
[13:41:51] <L84Supper> yes, similar
[13:42:04] <pcw_home> (there are some universal ones with replaceable stencil film)
[13:43:04] <L84Supper> was going to make something using screws for tension
[13:46:30] <pcw_home> heres one that uses air pressure:
[13:46:31] <pcw_home> http://www.smtonline.com/pages/zone.cgi?a=87620
[13:47:25] <pcw_home> a polyester film might need more adjustment range though
[13:47:55] <L84Supper> those are great, just pricey
[13:49:04] <L84Supper> we are holding a film that is like a 8 x 12" soft contact lens
[13:49:06] <pcw_home> I bet we have 50 old frames in our attic
[13:49:41] <L84Supper> heh, maybe a trade?
[13:50:08] <pcw_home> Yeah stencil frames are mostly a lot bigger
[13:50:28] <pcw_home> 18"x24" or more
[13:50:29] <L84Supper> the small films are only 4 x 6"
[13:50:48] <L84Supper> yeah, it's always buy vs build if possible
[13:50:49] <pcw_home> you may have to do it yourself
[13:51:15] <L84Supper> but for odd/small sizes there isn't much choice
[13:53:13] <L84Supper> http://www.google.com/patents/US3482343?printsec=drawing#v=onepage&q&f=false
[13:56:12] <pcw_home> http://xinology.com:888/Glass-Processing-Equipments-Supplies-Consumables/glass-printing/frames-screen-fabrics/feature/adjustable-frames.html
[13:57:16] <L84Supper> not too far away HK and Shenzhen
[14:02:01] <L84Supper> pcw_home: do you have your own IR reflow and pick-n-place?
[14:07:11] <pcw_home> No we dont do any assy
[16:14:06] <DJ9DJ> gn8