#linuxcnc | Logs for 2012-12-03

[00:39:49] <Loetmichel> mornin'
[02:01:49] <DJ9DJ> moin
[02:09:06] <RyanS> hmm some router designs use 2 steppers on X. I thought all motors have slight differences despite being exactly the same model/specifications? They would need to be exactly matched Iwould have thought ....
[02:33:14] <toastydeath> ryans the number of steps per rotation is discrete
[02:33:31] <toastydeath> with some error, obviously
[02:33:47] <toastydeath> one of the big problem with gantry machines is the fact that you are never, no matter what you do, going to be off by a bit
[02:33:52] <toastydeath> on X1 and X2
[02:34:21] <toastydeath> but if it makes you feel better, your motors aren't going to be the major contributor in error
[02:34:48] <toastydeath> your actual distance standard will be (in most cases, a rack/pinion drive or a leadscrew)
[02:35:22] <toastydeath> if you use only one motor, you have to deal with the fact you've essentially got a big C frame machine with some added rigidity
[02:35:48] <toastydeath> but that you're still going to get progressively worse wag in the crossrail as the cutting head gets further from the driven rail
[02:46:37] <RyanS> This actually seems like a pretty clever way of building http://www.cooperman.talktalk.net/files/2.htm fixed gantry
[02:48:54] <toastydeath> the problem with cleverness is that you still have a problem
[02:48:59] <toastydeath> it just looks different
[02:49:05] <toastydeath> what you need to look at is the kinematic path
[02:49:18] <toastydeath> that is, the distance from the motor to the workpiece
[02:49:26] <toastydeath> drive system to workpiece, rather
[02:50:25] <RyanS> yeah but fixed gantry is more rigid?
[02:50:36] <toastydeath> oh, yeah
[02:50:36] <toastydeath> it is
[02:50:44] <toastydeath> i thought that was an undercarriage driven gantry
[02:50:45] <toastydeath> sorry about that
[02:51:01] <toastydeath> most big milling machines are fixed gantry mills
[02:51:13] <RyanS> but I wonder if this guy is a skilled welder
[02:51:36] <toastydeath> welding structural steel is easy
[02:52:15] <toastydeath> i like that design
[02:53:14] <toastydeath> the only downside is that your envelope is tiny
[02:53:14] <RyanS> cheap ass stick welder would do the trick?
[02:53:14] <toastydeath> which is why you rarely see it on routers
[02:53:14] <toastydeath> and pretty much only on milling machines
[02:53:14] <toastydeath> yep
[02:53:35] <RyanS> yeah I am sort of looking for hybrid mill/router
[02:53:56] <toastydeath> the issue is that commercial routers tend to move really fast
[02:54:03] <toastydeath> so they like to have the smallest mass moving
[02:54:11] <toastydeath> whereas a 20 hp mill doesn't care so much
[02:54:38] <toastydeath> emc isn't good at moving fast, so you're in the clear
[02:55:38] <Valen> EMC is fine at moving fast
[02:56:23] <RyanS> hmm.. That being said I think I'd rather a small desktop machine for little plastic & wood knick knacks
[02:56:29] <toastydeath> Valen, since when
[02:56:43] <Valen> why wouldnt it be?
[02:56:57] <toastydeath> lookahead
[02:57:03] <Valen> the only real issue people have is wanting to do raster scanning on lasers
[02:58:10] <toastydeath> maybe it's changed but i've seen several discussions where there's no solution for machining at 80+ inches a minute
[02:58:21] <toastydeath> because it hiccups if you have two or three corners in a short space
[02:58:40] <toastydeath> that could be resolved
[02:58:57] <toastydeath> lots of controls have that problem, including commercial ones
[02:59:05] <Valen> we have commanded it to run faster than that but i don't think our mill could keep up
[02:59:12] <Valen> acceleration wise
[02:59:47] <toastydeath> it usually pops up on retrofitted commerical routers
[02:59:59] <toastydeath> something that expects to be moving that fast
[03:00:53] <RyanS> you think $860 is a waste of money for this? http://zentoolworks.com/index.php?cPath=44
[03:01:43] <toastydeath> no idea
[03:02:17] <RyanS> I've seen worse kits for more expensive. is what I mean..
[03:03:13] <RyanS> but 12x12" looks like it has too much Z travel for routing
[03:03:36] <toastydeath> don't dismiss z travel
[03:03:51] <toastydeath> endmills are fine and all but say you want to put a boring bar, longer drill, etc in there
[03:04:18] <toastydeath> you have to a) clear the part, and b) the tool has to be as long as the cut is deep
[03:04:37] <toastydeath> plus anything you're using to hold the part
[03:04:49] <RyanS> a boring bar in a plastic hobby router!?
[03:05:02] <toastydeath> sure
[03:05:09] <toastydeath> what's wrong with a boring bar in a plastic hobby router?
[03:05:49] <toastydeath> it's a more accurate hole than endmill interpolation, and you can just as easily control the cut depth
[03:06:06] <RyanS> too small to bore large holes on a machine like that?
[03:06:43] <Valen> pretty sure that one is made from MDF>
[03:06:44] <Valen> ?
[03:06:54] <RyanS> umm
[03:07:01] <RyanS> PVC
[03:07:03] <toastydeath> you can bore any size hole on nearly any machine
[03:07:13] <toastydeath> because the amount of cut you're taking is controlled by how you set the boring head
[03:07:20] <toastydeath> you can increase a bore by .001" per pass if you want
[03:07:27] <RyanS> "high density PVC"
[03:07:31] <Valen> just mill the holes out ;->
[03:07:40] <toastydeath> not an accurate hole
[03:07:48] <Valen> depends what you want it for
[03:08:02] <toastydeath> flame cut it
[03:08:37] <RyanS> hmm maybe it could cut acrylic or polycarbonate?
[03:09:20] <toastydeath> also i'd argue that the accuracy of a hole doesn't depend on what you want it for
[03:09:34] <toastydeath> the accuracy of a hole depends on how accurate the hole is, and whether or not that's overkill depends on what you want it for
[03:10:43] <Valen> you said its not an accurate hole, implying its going to be not good enough for something.
[03:10:57] <Valen> if he is making bearings sure
[03:11:05] <toastydeath> <toastydeath> it's a more accurate hole than endmill interpolation
[03:11:14] <toastydeath> i said A is more accurate than B
[03:11:20] <toastydeath> which is true.
[03:11:25] <toastydeath> zing!
[03:11:35] <Valen> but that machine would probably be good enough to sit a bearing in for most applications
[03:11:54] <Valen> IE good enough to put a pre packaged bearing into
[03:11:54] <toastydeath> relative accuracy is agnostic of purpose
[03:12:02] <Valen> (19:55:25) toastydeath: not an accurate hole
[03:12:33] <toastydeath> i don't see that anywhere
[03:12:46] <toastydeath> oh, now i do
[03:13:01] <toastydeath> either way, I stand by my assertion that interpolation isn't as accurate as boring regardless of what you want it for
[03:13:09] <toastydeath> whether or not you care about that extra accuracy is up to you
[03:13:13] <RyanS> You're having a holey war.... hawhawhaw
[03:13:28] <Valen> I'd say that it depends on the machine too
[03:13:33] <toastydeath> nope
[03:13:59] <Valen> a crappy boring bar setup could well produce a worse hole than a milled one
[03:14:05] <toastydeath> except it doesn't
[03:14:14] <RyanS> Or its holey irrelevant
[03:14:15] <toastydeath> because we understand the kinematics of spindles vs interpolation
[03:15:00] <toastydeath> haha
[03:15:13] <Jymmm> toastydeath: prove it.
[03:15:41] <Valen> i'd wager that those nice single point diamond cutter machines that mill out telescope mirrors better than 1/10th of a wavelength of light could cut a pretty decent hole
[03:16:16] <toastydeath> Jymmm, given a machine with a spindle holding a tool, the error in x-y from the bearing is added to the error from the two axes
[03:16:30] <toastydeath> whereas in boring, you only have the error from the bearing and no circular deformity from the axes
[03:17:39] <toastydeath> bearing error tends to be of two types, synchronous and asynchronous; asynchronous is mostly surface finish unless you're doing optics, then it counts
[03:18:10] <Jymmm> toastydeath: Now, recite Pi to a thousand digits from memory. You have 30s, ready.... GO!
[03:18:14] <toastydeath> synchronous error is a per-revolution constant displacement in the plane normal to rotation and results in a cutting error
[03:18:49] <RyanS> 3.91 something or rather?
[03:18:56] <Valen> if your machine has a proper measurement system that's independent of the actual cutting then bearing errors in a milling operation can be compensated for, which you cant do for a boring setup
[03:18:58] <toastydeath> i'm a math major, i'll allow it
[03:19:07] <toastydeath> Valen, actually, you can do it and it is done
[03:19:15] <toastydeath> so...
[03:19:23] <Valen> RyanS: american congress once defined it as 3 i believe
[03:19:42] <RyanS> If I tell you what I'm majoring in you'll wonder what I'm doing here
[03:19:48] <Valen> that whole being an irrational number was just irritating
[03:20:36] <Valen> blast, it didn't quite happen
[03:20:53] <Valen> http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/805/did-a-state-legislature-once-pass-a-law-saying-pi-equals-3
[03:22:00] <Jymmm> toastydeath: What is 'i' in math?
[03:22:15] <toastydeath> depends on the context, usually the imaginary unit
[03:22:27] <toastydeath> i^2 = -1
[03:22:36] <Jymmm> italic i
[03:22:45] <RyanS> current!
[03:22:51] <toastydeath> still depends on the context
[03:22:57] <RyanS> oops that's electronics
[03:22:59] <Valen> they don't do insults like this any more
[03:23:05] <Valen> "A member [of the legislature] then showed the writer [i.e., Waldo] a copy of the bill just passed and asked him if he would like an introduction to the learned doctor, its author. He declined the courtesy with thanks, remarking that he was acquainted with as many crazy people as he cared to know."
[03:24:00] <toastydeath> commonly, i can be an indexing variable or an indexing set, it can be one of the orthonormal bases for R^3, it can be the imaginary unit
[03:24:36] <RyanS> Maths is a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat that isn't there
[03:25:01] <Jymmm> RyanS: No, that would be antenna theory.
[03:25:02] <toastydeath> RyanS, assume we have a spherical cow radiating milk uniformly in all directions
[03:25:03] <Valen> sure? that sounds like philosophy more
[03:25:42] <Valen> a school is under a budget crisis and has decided to axe either maths or philosophy
[03:25:48] <RyanS> We would have a big mess?
[03:25:51] <toastydeath> i'd axe math
[03:26:05] <Valen> so they get the heads of the 2 departments in and ask them to make a statement as to why they should be the one to stay
[03:26:10] <toastydeath> k-12 math education is a huge waste of time in its current incarnation
[03:26:21] <Valen> maths says "all we need is a blackboard, paper, pencils and a rubbish bin"
[03:26:30] <Valen> philosophy says "we don't need the bin"
[03:26:35] <toastydeath> ahaha
[03:27:32] <toastydeath> i drank too much caffeine
[03:27:35] <toastydeath> now i'm awake when i shouldn't be
[03:28:15] <toastydeath> also i just spent an unholy amount of time doing the most annoying hodgepodge of proofs for one of my classes
[03:28:16] <RyanS> There's a school of philosophy which looks almost like algebra notation.. It could be some branch of logic
[03:28:38] <toastydeath> modal logic
[03:28:44] <Jymmm> chaos theory
[03:28:57] <toastydeath> noncommutative differential geometry
[03:29:27] <Jymmm> roman numerals
[03:29:39] <toastydeath> cuneform
[03:29:52] <RyanS> I tried reading some epistemology, I think I will leave that for the philosophy nerds
[03:29:54] <toastydeath> (Are we playing word association)
[03:30:19] <RyanS> Arabic numerals
[03:30:42] <Jymmm> 011101011101000111010
[03:30:59] <RyanS> Assembly language
[03:31:11] <RyanS> Hexadecimal
[03:31:14] <Jymmm> Brain Fuck
[03:31:24] <toastydeath> regular fuck
[03:31:31] <RyanS> ass fuck
[03:31:31] <Jymmm> RegEx
[03:31:34] <Valen> bah, bunch of pansises
[03:31:45] <Jymmm> RyanS: BrainFuck is a programming language.
[03:31:45] <Valen> gimme a bunch of toggle switches and a push button any day
[03:32:13] <RyanS> Does it achieve it said purpose?
[03:32:15] <Valen> as i recall its only operations are add and compare?
[03:32:29] <Valen> its language is soley . and [] i think
[03:32:36] <RyanS> One of those relay computers
[03:32:41] <Jymmm> RyanS: To the casual viewer, but it's pretty easy.
[03:33:53] <RyanS> They still use Turbo Pascal for education... its useless
[03:34:06] <Jymmm> Not really.
[03:34:21] <RyanS> They might as well be teaching Cobol or Fortan
[03:34:25] <Jymmm> TurboCNC is pritten in Turbo Pascal
[03:34:31] <Jymmm> written
[03:34:31] <toastydeath> fortran is still used
[03:34:55] <toastydeath> esp for scientific modeling, because that's what LINPACK is written in
[03:35:01] <RyanS> I thought it was a dead language
[03:35:05] <Valen> decent cobol/fortran programmers can get good pay at banks
[03:35:15] <Valen> all their crap was written in 1970 in those
[03:35:24] <toastydeath> nah, fortran can be highly optimized because it's such a shitty language
[03:36:23] <toastydeath> matlab started as a wrapper for linpack
[03:37:35] <RyanS> You know I like electronics, but I hate programming... It's impossible to do these days
[03:37:48] <toastydeath> wat
[03:38:05] <RyanS> Without programming
[03:38:16] <Valen> why hate programming?
[03:38:33] <mrsun> impossible to do without programming
[03:38:37] <RyanS> Because it's awful :)
[03:38:44] <mrsun> doubt that all the components are programmable today :P
[03:38:56] <mrsun> programming opens new doors for components imo =)
[03:39:12] <mrsun> like a uc ... can be anything you want it to be =)
[03:39:13] <mrsun> or fpga
[03:39:21] <mrsun> its a wonderfull world =)
[03:39:46] <Valen> RyanS: get a better programming language
[03:40:26] <RyanS> Okay but hobby electronics involves so much programming these days but I guess some people are still into analog stuff.......
[03:40:54] <Valen> there are a number of graphical "programming languages" for micros these days
[03:41:14] <RyanS> A language that doesn't have so many { } / [ ] : \
[03:41:23] <Jymmm> python
[03:43:01] <RyanS> "do a loop bitch" .. profane programming, to keep school kids interested
[03:43:19] <Valen> python is good
[03:43:53] <Valen> and with all the arm stuff coming out these days you can put a 1Ghz computer with a HDMI port into your project for $50
[03:44:23] <RyanS> I like mechanical gadgets
[03:46:00] <Valen> I like mechanical gadgets with outrageous computing power stuffed up their guts ;->
[03:46:20] <Jymmm> A digital dildo?
[03:46:30] <Valen> seen them
[03:46:51] <Valen> rather unimpressive though
[03:46:52] <RyanS> iDildo?
[03:48:38] <RyanS> I have a mini LTD sterling engine and I used to have it run all the time with a little nichrome wire heating element... Seems to defeat the purpose lol
[03:49:12] <RyanS> but I had no warm spot to place it
[03:59:22] <RyanS> Does it matter if a router plan or kit is imperial but you want to machine parts in metric? I guess it probably doesn't
[04:02:37] <Valen> nope
[04:02:52] <Valen> except for the mind bending pain that comes from having imperial measurements anywhere
[04:04:21] <RyanS> yeah I think imperial measurements are evil and should be made a jailable offence to use
[04:04:49] <Valen> expecially that imperial screw thats almost the same as a metric one
[04:04:55] <Valen> 5/8ths i think?
[04:05:12] <Valen> or some other damn weird one
[04:05:56] <RyanS> I don't understand the UK using the imperial system for roads etc and metricc for everything else
[04:09:37] <RyanS> What I find really annoying is tubing, even British and Australian standards although quoted in metric are just converted straight from imperial
[04:10:07] <Valen> there are starting to be metric sizes
[04:10:13] <Valen> paticularly in Al
[04:10:55] <RyanS> DIN tubing is sensible 25mm, 50mm, 100mm
[04:11:14] <RyanS> Those Germans really know how to measure shit
[04:13:02] <RyanS> metric bolts M5, M6, M8, M10.. glorious
[04:16:50] <Valen> 's how its donw
[04:16:51] <Valen> donw
[04:16:54] <Valen> ffs
[04:16:55] <Valen> done
[04:16:58] <Valen> with an e
[04:50:37] <d__> first time user, hello world!
[04:51:22] <d__> can anybody read this?
[04:53:02] <toastydeath> yep
[04:57:07] <d__> first time user, hello world?
[05:00:22] <cpresser> RyanS: those tubing sizes actually arent that nice. for example 'DN100' actually has 110mm outer diameter.
[05:01:05] <cpresser> thats why some people refert to that as DN110.. there is a lot of confusion with the size of tubes. dont even get me started on threads for plumbing :)
[05:01:56] <RyanS> NSP sucks.... Or more precisely leaks
[05:21:03] <toastydeath> listen, here in america, we have freedom
[05:21:12] <toastydeath> and that includes to make arbitrary tubing sizes with no rhyme or reason
[05:21:30] <toastydeath> including tons of sizes that exist for no reason other than historical inertia
[05:23:32] <RyanS> and freedom to die if you can't afford health care
[05:48:10] <archivist> cpresser, simple tubes are sized by the inner bore
[05:52:08] <psha[work]> logger[psha]: .
[05:52:08] <logger[psha]> psha[work]: Log stored at http://psha.org.ru/irc/%23linuxcnc/2012-12-03.html
[07:51:57] <skunkworks> heh - ask. or ask not. there is no asking to ask.
[07:54:16] <Jymmm> What am I not asking to ask about?
[07:54:58] <skunkworks> it was a tag line in another channel
[07:55:22] <Jymmm> ah
[07:56:40] <Jymmm> Don't ask to ask, just ask. If someone can help, they will.
[07:56:48] <Jymmm> SOP
[08:01:03] <Valen> I could help, but i'm going to bed instead
[08:54:20] <JT-Shop> tjb1: I am now
[08:54:54] <tjb1> What all do I need to use the Mesa THCAD board…just that one?
[08:55:46] <JT-Shop> what do you mean "just that one?"
[08:56:44] <tjb1> Just the THCAD board
[08:56:52] <tjb1> Or does that require another one of their boards?
[08:57:07] <JT-Shop> no, it will run stand alone
[08:57:19] <JT-Shop> very simple, voltage input, freq output
[08:57:40] <Tom_itx> vco?
[08:57:50] <JT-Shop> ?
[08:57:58] <Tom_itx> voltage controlled oscilator
[08:58:14] <JT-Shop> dunno, have to ask pcw_home that
[08:58:24] <tjb1> Just send that through a break out board to the computer?
[08:59:12] <JT-Shop> you can
[09:00:03] <tjb1> My arduino setup is…well it doesnt work
[09:01:00] <JT-Shop> don't you have a 5i25?
[09:01:22] <tjb1> No
[09:02:05] <JT-Shop> I forget what hardware your using?
[09:02:24] <tjb1> G540
[09:02:31] <AR_> ugh arduino
[09:02:39] <JT-Shop> on the parallel port?
[09:02:51] <tjb1> Yes and a CNC4PC C10 BOB
[09:03:46] <JT-Shop> I think I have one of those, I thought you could just plug the G540 into the parallel port?
[09:05:02] <tjb1> It is
[09:06:05] <JT-Shop> oh you have a second parallel port with the C10 plugged into it?
[09:06:32] <tjb1> Yep
[09:07:05] <pcw_home> You can use the THCAD with a parallel port, it has option to divide its output frequency down to something that software polling can read
[09:08:04] <JT-Shop> tjb1: you should post a photo of your table on the forum
[09:08:19] <tjb1> I just finished the wiring this weekend
[09:09:39] <tjb1> http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/559884_4685625054576_1154917471_n.jpg
[09:12:37] <JT-Shop> don't forget to put a filter over that fan on the outside
[09:13:06] <tjb1> Ill get there, having problems with my Z motor too...
[09:13:26] <JT-Shop> hows that?
[09:13:29] <tjb1> So are you setting the target voltage for THC with a slider in axis?
[09:14:59] <tjb1> When its done cutting and should rapid 3" up, it just hums and then the next pierce screws up because it thinks it is 3" above and then trys to rapid down to .160 to probe and it doesnt turn out well...
[09:15:23] <tjb1> I need to adjust velocity and accel for the Z again but then changing that changes the probe distance
[09:16:10] <JT-Shop> I use a number input box for tip voltage
[09:16:18] <JT-Shop> sounds like stepper stalling out
[09:17:11] <tjb1> It is…its never done it before and it seems to only do it when the tip of torch is touching the work so I need to investigate that further but I am switching to the THCAD board
[09:18:00] <tjb1> pcw_home: Do you know if the thcad will work with this bob ? http://www.cnc4pc.com/Store/osc/product_info.php?cPath=33&products_id=45&osCsid=acd2d68ae17baeff5d45c84041aad295
[09:20:07] <tjb1> Ill be back in 2 hours, have class.
[09:21:10] <pcw_home> The thcad is BOB independent, It has 5V output signals, so as long as you can read than you are OK
[09:21:31] <pcw_home> s/than/that
[10:16:07] <jdh> anyone have a Pi? powered by a non-traditional source?
[10:18:10] <TekniQue> I have one, powered by a Samsung phone charger
[10:18:21] <TekniQue> hardly non-traditional
[10:19:51] <JT-Shop> mouse on a generator wheel
[10:20:41] <TekniQue> it's handy that most phones nowadays have micro USB-B for charging
[10:32:52] <jdh> I made a 12v wallwart ->lm7805 for mine (to power lcd and other stuff via 12v)
[10:33:25] <jdh> the Pi draws max 450mA when testing, but the ethernet drops out after a minute or so and voltage drops to 4.75
[10:34:21] <TekniQue> the 7805 could be overheating
[10:35:07] <TekniQue> 450ma is a lot to draw from a linear regulator unless it has the right amount of heatsinking
[10:35:37] <cpresser> yep. 7V@0.5Amp == 3.5Watts. thats quite much for a to220 case
[10:36:31] <cpresser> get a switching voltage regulator. it requires litte more effort, but it doesnt burn that much power
[10:37:31] <roh> cpresser: no issue when you cool it properly. for a 7805 yes.. but there are other compatible types in that case which handle 5W easy
[10:39:44] <roh> micrel 29500
[10:40:04] <roh> MIC29500 .. does 5A in the same pinout and case like a 7805
[10:41:18] <roh> jdh: any reason not to use a 5V switching mode power supply? would make less heat/waste less power
[10:51:25] <Tom_itx> runs cooler too
[11:02:55] <tjb1> pcw_home: So as long as I set the BOB to pull inputs low and let thcad set the high I can read frequency with it?
[11:08:09] <pcw_home> The THCAD has push-pull 5V 20 mAoutputs so should be able to drive just about any input
[11:08:24] <IchGuckLive> hi all B)
[11:09:54] <tjb1> Alright thanks pcw_home, I will be ordering one soon
[11:10:34] <pcw_home> Did you give up an you Arduino THC? I would think it would work fine +- some electrical noise/grounding issues (the THCAD is a very paranoid design -2500V isolation 500V overload capability on 10V input etc)
[11:11:44] <pcw_home> but an arduino with the righ input conditioning should do as well
[11:11:46] <tjb1> Yes I am having problems with it…not sure where at the moment. I moved it over to a dedicated board and can't monitor the serial any more so I am not sure what is going on but when activated the torch just continues to dive down
[11:12:57] <tjb1> I would rather make the computer watch the voltage also so I can set it within axis. My other plan was to use the G540 vfd to set the target voltage in the Arduino but at this point I am tired of playing with the Arduino
[11:13:24] <pcw_home> I suspect that ground bumping might be an issue, one solution would be to isolate the arduino (isolate the serial port)
[11:15:09] <pcw_home> both the plasma signal _and_ GND are liable to be noisy, so a floating voltage sense is better
[11:15:25] <tjb1> Well the thcad isnt that expensive and the component file doesnt differ much when using it and right now its running 2 programs and the arduino one always seems to muff up
[11:15:46] <tjb1> Im not too experience with electronics so I would rather just plug the plasma voltage into a board and let the computer do the work
[11:16:21] <pcw_home> I'm the anti-salesman
[11:19:34] <tjb1> Heh, I thought I found the problem when I tried to measure a resistor on the filter and couldn't measure it…killed it, so I switched it to another analog input still dives. Thought I loaded the wrong chip, went it loaded the thc program and put it back on still dives…no clue…gave up.
[11:21:51] <tjb1> I am going to switch the probe input to a limit when not probing so if it ever dives enough that will kill it
[11:22:12] <jthornton_> no need to do that
[11:23:50] <mrsun> got myself an usb memory and some cd-r disks .. hope to update to alpha4 today on big computer =)
[11:23:55] <tjb1> So I can make it watch the probe as a limit when not probing?
[11:24:18] <mrsun> dogh
[11:24:21] <mrsun> wrong channel :P
[11:24:38] <jthornton> trip the probe when your not in a probe move and see what happens
[11:25:09] <tjb1> Probe tripped during job move
[11:25:12] <tjb1> Continues to move :P
[11:25:30] <jthornton> should fault out and stop moving IIRC
[11:25:56] <jthornton> not during a jog but when your running a program
[11:26:00] <jdh> roh: I had a 7805, didn't have a switcher.
[11:26:09] <tjb1> It doesnt…a piece of 20 gauge experienced the "plasma brake" when the z motor stalled
[11:27:45] <tjb1> Thats funny…it stalls out when trying to pull the Z up but bent a piece of 20 gauge trying pushing the torch through it
[11:27:52] <tjb1> trying to push the torch...
[11:30:30] <JT-Shop> I just tripped the probe input while doing a mdi and a program and motion stops
[11:38:35] <pcw_home> jdh: heat sink
[11:39:14] <jdh> pcw: that's the plan. It will be in a closed enclosure though.
[11:39:29] <tjb1> Doesnt for me JT-Shop
[11:39:32] <pcw_home> a spare CPU heat sink will do
[11:39:49] <pcw_home> (for ~4w no fan)
[11:39:59] <jdh> I'd have to rebuild for that. I made it on a perf board. No room for something that big.
[11:40:17] <pcw_home> bent piece of aluminum sheet
[11:40:19] <archivist> as long as the enclosure is heat conductive(metal)
[11:40:28] <JT-Shop> tjb1: do you have some trick hal stuff going on to block the probe input?
[11:40:34] <tjb1> Nope
[11:40:46] <jdh> I could machine a form-fitting heat sink!
[11:43:10] <tjb1> JT-Shop: Do you want to see my hal file?
[11:43:51] <JT-Shop> don't have time right now, have to build machines before xmas
[11:45:15] <tjb1> ok, im gonna add a relay…because I can
[11:45:16] <tjb1> :)
[11:47:43] <JT-Shop> I've got 9 small machines to build and deliver before the end of the year :)
[11:48:11] <IchGuckLive> JT-Shop: i got 25
[11:48:46] <IchGuckLive> the PC are a nightmare but 15k latency
[11:48:58] <JT-Shop> you better get busy then :)
[11:49:09] <IchGuckLive> they are all compaq armada E500 with 384MB ram
[11:49:58] <IchGuckLive> zhe keyway milling is the most work as it is once per part only ok i got it done to clamp 2 at the time
[11:50:37] <IchGuckLive> the frameparts can be done 2 mashines at one clamp
[11:52:43] <jdh> sounds ancient
[11:53:05] <IchGuckLive> 15Eur per notebook so its worth it
[11:54:26] <IchGuckLive> jdh: you know my small education mashines that fit's the most efficient material use
[11:59:24] <jdh> oh, I thought you were tempesting ancient computers
[12:01:19] <IchGuckLive> for education it works so noone can put anything onto the pc as there is no connections
[12:31:40] <rizo> i was reading the debate about the ITX boards suitable to run emc. I am planning to buy one, but i am not sure how much RAM do a need, is 1 GB enough?
[12:32:30] <roh> sure. but just take 2 or 4.. since its dead cheap and only becoming more expensive
[12:35:27] <IchGuckLive> rizo: 2 is enoph
[12:35:36] <IchGuckLive> 1 seams a bit low
[12:35:48] <IchGuckLive> but it will work
[12:36:15] <IchGuckLive> on the Dayli memory price that shoudt not count many Box
[12:45:32] <jdh> I have 2gb in one, 4gb in the other. No difference just running lcnc
[13:09:09] <rizo> i was wondering, would it be hard to make some kind of HAL gui, similar to one used in labview, with black boxes (hal modules/component) and wires (signals)?
[13:09:27] <jdh> rizo: you should get to work on that!
[13:09:31] <jthornton> nope
[13:09:42] <rizo> :)
[13:10:00] <jdh> there have been attempts in the past?
[13:10:32] <rizo> this would be very nice, vry easy to use and also much more simple to configure
[13:11:09] <rizo> i would do this, but i am more a user than developer. I am not that good at programming.
[13:11:11] <jdh> wasn't someone working on an Eagle thing?
[13:12:18] <jdh> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Eagle2HAL
[13:14:28] <pcw_home> Someone was working on something like that at one time (one of the toms?) with some kind of graphing language
[13:15:00] <pcw_home> TomP maybe
[13:44:32] <tom3p> the original idea with geda/eagle and hal was to make a visualization of the hal file, then to allow editing and saving.
[13:44:41] <tom3p> I stopped after reviewing a very long list of candidates because the initial idea was flawed.
[13:44:51] <tom3p> Its visual scope: Theres no simple way to view the entire .hal for say even a simple stepper and still see the individual components.
[13:44:58] <tom3p> Theres no simple way to see the components and still see the overall view. I suggest that using geda/eagle/pd/python-wxwidgets is ok to >>explain<< an idea, not a whole wiring diagram.
[13:44:59] <tom3p> and for explanation, any of the submitted approaches work well enuf.
[13:51:32] <pcw_home> for similar reasons, high level languages are much more popular for hardware design than schematics
[13:53:05] <tom3p> i was looking at (v)hdl to describe it
[13:55:27] <pcw_home> An intermediate approach (a smart HAL editor) would be nice
[13:55:29] <pcw_home> as would automating component instantiation/ simple math
[13:57:20] <pcw_home> math /logic
[13:58:26] <pcw_home> net foobar sig1 + sig2
[13:59:32] <tom3p> visual or text? ( the c pre-processor might do the 'macro' substituion )
[13:59:55] <jdh> or m4
[14:00:43] <pcw_home> text
[14:03:10] <pcw_home> HAL is parsed anyway, it seems some simple math and logic functions could be included
[14:03:39] <tom3p> macro expansion inside the hal parser
[14:04:44] <pcw_home> it would make some things easier to read (for me at least)
[14:06:14] <tom3p> thats the basic point, a hal file is difficult to imagine
[14:06:46] <tom3p> for me, its paper & pencil (with eraser) time
[14:07:47] <born2late> any1 has some nice icons for linuxcnc ?
[14:08:07] <tom3p> is videobin.org dead? i just tried to upload a python-node example ( i get bad gateway)
[14:11:32] <pcw_home> Theres Tux with the endmill under his wing...
[14:12:55] <pcw_home> tom3p: VideoBin.org works for me
[14:15:24] <tom3p> http://videobin.org/+671/6ux.html
[14:15:54] <tom3p> src code url included in desc
[14:21:36] <tom3p> one simple way to make hal more readable is a fortran like column approach http://pastebin.com/EMwEDxD1
[14:22:12] <jdh> how is that fortran like?
[14:22:31] <tom3p> it ^^^ allows a visual grouping that normal text misses
[14:22:55] <tom3p> jdh: punch cards really, not fortran
[14:23:10] <jdh> I've only done cobol on punch cards :)
[14:23:26] <jdh> but, sadly, I do something fortran related at least once a week.
[14:25:06] <KimK> jdh: Great! We will be sure to consult with you when we get back around to the APT restoration project.
[14:25:35] <tom3p> well, if you want to pursue gui-hal, i suggest the most examples (available code) is in java. look at grasshopper for rhino
[14:26:06] <jdh> KimK: some things are best left in the past :)
[14:26:40] <KimK> jdh: Are you talking about Fortran or APT?
[14:26:45] <jdh> sure.
[14:27:13] <jdh> and if the answer to any problem is 'java', you are doomed.
[14:29:33] <tom3p> notice the graphical program http://fireflyexperiments.com/gallery/2012/8/19/first-deltabot-test
[15:17:57] <tjb1> JT-Shop: Where should I post the pictures? cnc machines?
[15:39:39] <JT-Shop> sounds good to me
[15:43:43] <tjb1> I started but I have like a bajillion pictures...
[15:43:50] <tjb1> time for class, cya
[15:45:30] <JT-Shop> ok
[15:54:14] <skunkworks> JT-Shop: good video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmRUJk0ptN4&list=UL
[15:54:29] <skunkworks> that is how I touch off most of the time
[16:15:59] <DJ9DJ> gn8
[16:44:14] <tjb1> JT-Shop: I found the solution to my problem
[16:44:38] <tjb1> Cut about 5" off the z-axis http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/541266_4483076350985_1847390910_n.jpg
[17:06:22] <JT-Shop> skunkworks: thanks, someday I need to add some voice over to it
[17:06:45] <Connor> jdh: You have a pin spanner ?
[17:07:15] <JT-Shop> tjb1: that is a bunch of Z for a plasma
[17:07:29] <tjb1> For router too but still too much :)
[17:07:32] <Connor> Trying to do the bearing upgrade.. and can't get the bottom retaining nut off of the spindle.
[17:07:55] <tjb1> Hopefully knocking 5" off that will let me take the Z accel back up
[17:08:26] <JT-Shop> you can use this to trim it down real quick http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYoNbjOu0vs&list=UL
[17:10:36] <tjb1> I prefer tannerite :)
[17:14:36] <tjb1> Think that will help?
[17:17:28] <tom3p> how much mass was removed, how much torq has the motor? if it was 80-20 that was cut off vs steel plate and guide rail
[17:18:02] <tom3p> anyway, the machine will tell you
[17:21:40] <tjb1> Going to be 8020, screw, and 1/4x4" crs
[17:23:13] <andypugh> Stop messing about and go for 1kW + servos
[17:23:16] <JT-Shop> tannerite is ok if you can focus it
[17:26:41] <tom3p> if the motor and screw was removed from the axis, like JT's tooth belt drive, that'd remove mass ( and add it to another axis )
[17:35:22] <tom3p> this may be a rack & pinion , same idea tho, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hyc8DfI-Tc&feature=plcp
[17:36:27] <andypugh> That's wire and drum, fairly obviously.
[17:38:51] <tom3p> Z axis?
[17:39:10] <andypugh> Ah, you meant the Z? No idea how that works.
[17:39:30] <tom3p> yeah he was talking about cuttin 5" off his Z to get accell up
[17:39:54] <andypugh> More Volts! Bigger Motors! 10MW servos!
[17:40:24] <tom3p> no mass no mass ( paraphrasing )
[17:41:27] <tom3p> hollow rotors, hollow leadscrews
[17:49:26] <tjb1> 2.568 lbs/ft for 1530 extrusion
[17:49:40] <tjb1> Get rid of a pound of aluminum
[17:50:46] <tjb1> and almost 1.5 of steel plate plus a little bit on the screw
[18:21:43] <JT-Shop> tjb1: how big can you cut?
[18:22:05] <tjb1> Cut what?
[18:22:22] <JT-Shop> 5' x 10"?
[18:22:26] <JT-Shop> 10'
[18:22:29] <tjb1> 4x8
[18:22:36] <tjb1> Little extra but not much
[18:23:40] <JT-Shop> looks bigger :)
[18:24:00] <tjb1> X rail is 113" long, carriage is I think 8.5?
[18:26:56] <tjb1> Thats like 104.5 but the torch is almost centered so probably about 106" long
[18:32:40] <tjb1> 65 left to right, 8.5 carriage and 3" for bump stops so about 54 width
[18:34:35] <tjb1> JT-Shop: I have more pictures to add :)
[18:34:48] <JT-Shop> dang
[18:35:32] <tjb1> Its tiring sorting all of those pictures
[18:37:47] <JT-Shop> post a few each day
[18:38:56] <tjb1> I shouldnt have slapped them all into one post
[18:39:10] <JT-Shop> yea, it was rather long LOL
[18:39:17] <jdh> url?
[18:39:49] <JT-Shop> http://linuxcnc.org/index.php/english/forum/index
[18:40:08] <andypugh> More specificaly: http://www.linuxcnc.org/index.php/forum/30-cnc-machines/25901-diy-cnc-plasma-table-lots-of-pictures?lang=english#27163
[18:40:09] <jdh> connor: I have some pin spanners, probably not for a spindle though.
[18:40:30] <JT-Shop> Andy beat me too the long link
[18:43:00] * JT-Shop remembers what he was supposed to be doing now...
[18:43:40] <andypugh> tjb1: I wish I had srtarted that sort of thing at the time in my life you are, I would be pretty good by now.
[18:43:59] <jdh> no kidding
[18:44:07] <tjb1> I want to get a job at Hardinge :)
[18:44:30] <JT-Shop> I thought you had a summer job there?
[18:44:39] <tjb1> I wish
[18:45:06] <andypugh> I want to get a job at Huddersfield Uni, they have a "precision machines" section (and it's close to my folks)
[18:45:50] <tjb1> Im going to start a kickstarter to send me to MIT
[18:46:08] <Jymmm> tjb1: Well, what's stopping you? Just stand outside with a sign that says "WILL WORK FOR CNC"
[18:46:18] <tjb1> Reward: Receipt for your donation, carefully laminated and sent to you.
[18:46:41] <andypugh> http://www.hud.ac.uk/research/researchcentres/ecmpg//
[18:47:33] <tjb1> andypugh: That mill in the picture is better than anything here
[18:48:04] * JT-Shop never gets tired of listening to Dave Brubeck's Take Five
[18:51:27] <tjb1> I think I am going to make a dedicated router, maybe 4'x6'…too hard to accurately mount a spoilboard on the plasma
[18:51:43] <jdh> how do you have that much space?
[18:51:46] <tjb1> I dont
[18:51:53] <tjb1> Time to sell something else, haha
[18:52:15] <jdh> 4x8 would be a much better router size
[18:52:24] <tjb1> I have two 10' sticks of 3030 extrusion
[18:52:34] <tjb1> They are both bent about 2' in so thats the reason for the weird size
[18:53:01] <jdh> so, that's the two 8ft pieces. Order one more
[18:53:23] <jdh> guess that's not quite enough though.
[18:53:27] <tjb1> You know how much shipping is for a 8' long piece
[18:53:36] <jdh> not a clue.
[18:53:40] <tjb1> Too much
[18:54:04] <tjb1> I got free shipping on my last order but 8020 wanted $160 to come from Indiana to Pennsylvania
[19:33:27] <AR_> gah
[19:33:47] <AR_> over 2000000ns jitter every like 10 seconds on this laptop :(
[19:34:37] <AR_> maybe SMI
[19:52:11] <AR_> gah, the smi module wont work on this chipset
[20:15:21] <L84Supper> laptops use embedded controllers for power management, battery charging, keyboard scan, lid open/closed ...
[20:16:07] <L84Supper> use SMI and ACPI and connect to the chipset over SPI and LPC
[20:16:51] <L84Supper> depending on the BIOS they can cause some major interruptions
[20:17:22] <L84Supper> you might be safe using a chromebook since they use coreboot
[20:17:53] <L84Supper> vs EFI or a BIOS
[20:21:57] <AR_> ugh
[20:22:15] <AR_> do you think it will be 'good enough' for non-precision things?
[20:22:34] <AR_> it is only like once every 30 seconds i get a high latency peak
[20:23:09] <andypugh> Try it.
[20:24:26] <AR_> other than that my max jitter is like 8000ns with a 50,000ns peak every 5-10 secs
[20:24:58] <AR_> then just that one high peak to 2000000ns every ~30 secs
[20:25:11] <andypugh> I have a machine that needs to have the SMI patch, but loses it every time I do dev work on it. I have made a number of parts just ignoring the errors. I have never lost a part due to the latency over-runs, but accept that I might.
[20:25:29] <AR_> yeah
[20:25:43] <AR_> i cant imagine it would cause anything major
[20:25:50] <AR_> just a skipped step or two
[20:26:54] <AR_> i'm not really expecting +/-.001 accuracy
[20:28:55] <andypugh> At full speed a skipped step can cause a stall. That's bad
[20:29:40] <andypugh> But you would also have to be unlucky.
[21:08:19] <skunkworks> http://electronicsam.com/gallery/picture.php?/847/category/2
[21:08:23] <skunkworks> getting there.
[21:09:56] <tjb1> Isn't tiling fun?
[21:10:20] <tjb1> You poor bastard…those little mosaic tiles are too much fun
[21:15:09] <andypugh> Mosaics on mesh are fairly easy.
[21:17:09] <tjb1> I thought the worst part was cleaning the mud out to put the grout in but maybe I was doing it wrong...
[21:18:30] <skunkworks> I actually splurged and let someone do the tiling this time... (I know - I know...)
[21:18:54] <skunkworks> worked out great - gave me time to get various parts of the remodel done.
[21:20:55] <andypugh> Still, you will always look at a flaw and fail to forgive it. I prefer to live with my own errors.
[21:20:57] <tjb1> That or the zillion screws you have to put in a 16'x11' area using hardibacker
[21:22:32] <skunkworks> it isn't perfect for sure.. but the guy did a nice job. and it is done faster than I could have...
[21:23:17] <skunkworks> And he pulled off all the pebles for the shower floor from the backer and layed them one by one. He didn't like how far apart they where.
[21:31:40] <djdelorie> my dad's theory on flaws is: "there's always someone who will look for any flaw. Give them something to find so they stop looking."