#linuxcnc | Logs for 2012-10-22

[00:04:23] <r00t4rd3d> also scan0001.dxf
[02:06:39] <DJ9DJ> moin
[02:16:56] <ursa> Looking for help changing pinout of parallel port with stepconf. Can anyone help?
[02:24:17] <archivist> ask the real question, not can we help in irc
[02:26:05] <ursa> Stepconf is not changing the pinout the way expected--I ask for spindle on on a particular pin and get nothing.
[02:26:19] <ursa> I find the spindle on signal on amplifier enabled
[02:26:28] <ursa> Any way to fix this up?
[02:31:21] <archivist> which pin number?
[02:31:55] <ursa> pin 17 is given as amplifier enabled, and that is where I find the spindl-on signal.
[02:32:53] <ursa> I wanted to move it to pin 0 (or is it 1, the one that defaults to estop), but if I make the change in stepconf, I get nothing on the pinl.
[02:33:17] <ursa> Same thing happens if I change pin 17 from ampifier enable to spindle on.
[02:37:11] <ursa> estop is on pin 1, not pin 0. just checked.
[02:38:30] <ursa> and if it helps, when I leave estop on pin 1, I get the expected signals.
[02:39:00] <archivist> there is no "spindle on" on the version I have here, I assume you have a later version
[02:39:29] <ursa> One sec. I'll check the version.
[02:39:48] <ursa> I have 2.5.0
[02:43:02] <ursa> I can live with what I am getting, but it would be nice to have stepconf indicate the correct signal. Not that big a deal, just an annoyance.
[02:47:03] <archivist> I have an older version on this box
[02:47:34] <ursa> Such is life. As I said, I can live with what I'm getting, but . . . .
[03:01:54] <Loetmichel> mornin'
[09:16:11] <r00t4rd3d> Arduino finally listed the Due on their site
[09:16:11] <r00t4rd3d> http://arduino.cc/en/Main/ArduinoBoardDue
[10:05:07] <jdh> I have an arduino based compressor monitor that lost an ADC. I'm going to replace it with a Raspberry Pi to make remote monitoring easier. Waiting on an ADC board though.
[10:12:25] <r00t4rd3d> $150 for this paradise box:
[10:12:26] <r00t4rd3d> http://imgur.com/a/xv0kb
[10:12:57] <jdh> what makes it paradise?
[10:13:13] <r00t4rd3d> I didnt name and you know this.
[10:13:29] <r00t4rd3d> name it*
[10:13:31] <jdh> that's a weird name MaCcue? not MacCue?
[10:13:39] <jdh> just thought you might know the origin
[10:13:42] <r00t4rd3d> I didnt name them either.
[10:13:43] <r00t4rd3d> :D
[10:14:13] <jdh> $150 for a box? Are they married?
[10:15:41] <r00t4rd3d> those are the kids names on the sides, two other kids names will be on the other side
[10:16:07] <jdh> what kind of wood are you goign to use?
[10:16:13] <r00t4rd3d> red oak
[10:16:46] <jdh> 1/4"?
[10:16:59] <r00t4rd3d> are just fucking with me?
[10:17:10] <r00t4rd3d> 3/4
[10:17:10] <jdh> maybe. (no)
[10:17:36] <jdh> heh, I really meant 1/2, but woudl have been wrong either way.
[10:17:49] <r00t4rd3d> I do make mini pboxes out of half
[10:18:06] <jdh> any issues snorting red oak dust?
[10:18:56] <r00t4rd3d> oak sawdust is horrible
[10:20:51] <r00t4rd3d> http://imgur.com/a/Ko6aa
[10:21:09] <r00t4rd3d> that box is made out of mostly 1/2, 3/4 sides
[10:22:35] <jdh> do you cut the outside profiles with the router or cut to shape before/after?
[10:23:52] <r00t4rd3d> cause my machine isnt the fastest, I cut about half way through the wood for the outside profile then cut it the rest of the way out with a bandsaw.
[10:29:05] <r00t4rd3d> Im gonna try a new finish, boiled linseed oil, tung oil and semi gloss poly.
[10:29:12] <r00t4rd3d> 3 equals parts
[10:29:17] <r00t4rd3d> equal*
[10:29:49] <r00t4rd3d> then rub it out good
[10:30:40] <r00t4rd3d> im gonna rub that box till it shines
[10:31:21] <r00t4rd3d> my wood is going to be super smooth
[10:31:42] <r00t4rd3d> :D
[10:31:51] <jdh> all that practice pays off
[11:27:14] <r00t4rd3d> great
[11:27:20] <r00t4rd3d> its here
[11:27:36] <jdh> now you can start rubbing your wood?
[11:27:57] <r00t4rd3d> I havent even gotten wood yet.
[11:28:15] <r00t4rd3d> only partial wood
[11:28:36] <r00t4rd3d> enough for one section
[11:29:35] <r00t4rd3d> Im gonna load my racks later
[11:30:54] <r00t4rd3d> the its here comment was related to Tj.
[11:35:09] <r00t4rd3d> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/cnc_wood_router_project_log/165704-cnc_router_build_pics.html
[11:35:12] <r00t4rd3d> my god
[11:35:52] <r00t4rd3d> that is some nice stuff.
[11:41:42] <tjb1> Did you see his mill?
[11:41:47] <tjb1> Someone is made of money
[11:43:04] <r00t4rd3d> I know, makes my setup look like welfares.
[11:43:29] <r00t4rd3d> right down to his nice and pretty blue garage floors.
[11:44:24] <r00t4rd3d> if he lived in the states he could probably make a fortune
[11:44:46] <r00t4rd3d> shipping from Romania probably is not cheap.
[11:46:18] <JT-Shop> yuck it looks like a gaudy mack screen
[11:51:17] <r00t4rd3d> i would have ran the wires to the backside of that cabinet
[12:02:57] <tjb1> r00t4rd3d: your wiring is a mess
[12:05:28] <mrsun> r00t4rd3d, oh its all chiny
[12:07:21] <mrsun> i wonder how long that lasts with some use :P
[12:27:45] <Jymmm> There is no way in hell that only cost him $6000 USD in parts imported from US.
[12:29:44] <Jymmm> Some of that is 1" and 1.5" (?) aluminum, not to mention that nice thick slotted tabletop
[12:31:56] <ktchk> Jymmm: 6000us what machine?
[12:32:12] <Jymmm> ktchk: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/cnc_wood_router_project_log/165704-cnc_router_build_pics.html
[12:35:01] <ktchk> Jymmm: nice machine 4.5 kw spindle good rail servo motrolots of aluminium
[12:42:36] <Jymmm> Semi-random question... If you were to have something made (doesn't matter what it is), what would you expect a reasonable cost ratio to be from quantities of 100, 1K, 10K, and 100K units to be?
[12:43:32] <IchGuckLive> it matters always what it is
[12:43:37] <pcw_home> really does depends on what it is
[12:44:03] <pcw_home> Ha
[12:44:15] <Jymmm> No it doesn't. could be a deck of playing cards, or a car.
[12:44:33] <IchGuckLive> Gold Bars 1 woudt be good 10 Perfect 100 amazing 1k
[12:45:12] <IchGuckLive> i llake to make 10 pices that is the best to go
[12:45:23] <IchGuckLive> for milling
[12:45:25] <pcw_home> I my purchasing experience different things have very different slopes of price vs QTY
[12:45:31] <pcw_home> In my
[12:45:34] <IchGuckLive> lathe woudt be good below 1000
[12:47:17] <pcw_home> IchGuckLive's gold bars is a perfect example where material costs dominate
[12:47:19] <pcw_home> also really depends on competition
[12:47:35] <IchGuckLive> as on mashining the tool
[12:47:58] <IchGuckLive> 1 hole diameter 1mm 30mm depth is to drill
[12:48:09] <IchGuckLive> 100 holes is better on EDM drilling
[12:49:21] <IchGuckLive> i made a wonderfull GIF ani with Gimp B) O.O
[12:49:37] <IchGuckLive> hatd to anderstand but it works
[12:49:55] <pcw_home> also base cost, 100 resistors are much more expensive that 100,000/1000
[12:49:57] <pcw_home> largely because the handling costs of 100 resistors are much more than the parts
[12:50:28] <IchGuckLive> http://tv-profi-gmbh.de/images/mitarbeiter/ani_2012_okt.gif
[12:59:09] <Jymmm> 100 @$46/ea, 100K@$44/ea, cost diff $2
[13:00:09] <fragalot> Jymmm: now spread that over 059134134523142 million pieces
[13:00:13] <fragalot> now that makes a big difference
[13:00:15] * fragalot nods
[13:04:23] <Jymmm> The problem I find is that once you've reached that 10K unit mark, they have nfc. They don't/can't deal with those qunatities and are just guessing at that point.
[13:04:58] <pcw_home> depends on what its is (100K resistors is nothing)
[13:05:30] <Jymmm> you're ot going to spend $46 on one resistor though.
[13:05:39] <pcw_home> might
[13:06:06] <Jymmm> But even so, the diff is going to be more than $2/ea
[13:06:27] <pcw_home> Yes but mainly because of handling
[13:06:38] <pcw_home> overhead
[13:06:53] <Jymmm> overhead goes down in larger qty
[13:07:27] <pcw_home> are these fabricated custom parts?
[13:07:38] <Jymmm> lasered
[13:08:39] <pcw_home> well in that case its good to make your vendor aware that this is a competitive bidding situation
[13:09:20] <pcw_home> then the higher the quantity the more time they will take sharpening the pencils
[13:09:47] <pcw_home> (if this is a substantial order for the company so you have leverage)
[13:10:21] <Jymmm> If 100K units doesn't signify that already, would you really want to deal with them?
[13:10:30] <pcw_home> No
[13:10:35] <Jymmm> =)
[13:11:03] <pcw_home> Maybe they are not taking you seriously
[13:11:15] <Jymmm> Most can only deal will small or large qty, but not both.
[13:11:56] <pcw_home> unless they have history with you they may not take you seriously
[13:12:02] <Jymmm> Maybe, but isn't that when you take the time to pick up the phone and find out?
[13:12:30] <Jymmm> or at the very least ask questions.
[13:13:01] <pcw_home> (we normally dont take big quotes seriously unless we have some history)
[13:13:32] <Jymmm> And you don't take 10 minutes to find out for sure?
[13:14:00] <pcw_home> too much effort, too much leaked info, too many people with high talk/do ratios
[13:14:16] <Jymmm> leaked info?
[13:14:35] <pcw_home> might well be a competitor
[13:14:42] <Jymmm> ah
[13:15:35] <pcw_home> Its slightly different for us normally people ramp up production so we always have history
[13:16:08] <Jymmm> Well, what I find is most places either have a MAX of 10K, or MIN of 100K, it's that middle ground they don't know what to do with.
[13:20:16] <Jymmm> pcw_home: With what I'm doing the 100-1000 is the prototype/marketing feeler qty, then the 10K to 100K is full production run.
[13:26:06] <Jymmm> http://www.alltronics.com/cgi-bin/item/28D001/FN/Ultimate-House-Security-Device
[13:34:36] <pcw_home> so have you done the 100/1000 yet?
[13:34:37] <L84Supper> for low quantities of mass produced parts the supplier pretty much dictates the price, or the race to the bottom has......
[13:35:10] <pcw_home> Right you have no leverage
[13:35:14] <L84Supper> for high volume you can set the price if you can actually finance it
[13:35:42] <pcw_home> but you need to be taken seriously
[13:35:47] <L84Supper> yes
[13:36:14] <pcw_home> because a large competitive quote is a lot of effort
[13:36:28] <jdh> quotes are expensive
[13:37:11] <L84Supper> if you're going to make 100K of something with several parts, you are seldom interested in 100 pc prices
[13:39:10] <L84Supper> say a board with 50 electronic components
[13:40:09] <L84Supper> it would be different if you were making a 3 part assembly out of injection molded components
[13:45:56] <Jymmm> Well the 100-1000 is prototype/marketing feeler/do they have a clue qty, 10K to 100K is full production run.
[13:45:57] <pcw_home> It might take a person day for us to do a big quote so unless we have history we are not likely to do it. (laser cut metal bits are probably a lot easier to quote but still may require contacting vendors for material price quotes)
[13:47:15] <jdh> or, just make up some slightly cheaper number and wait for them to go away
[13:47:32] <pcw_home> (thats it exactly)
[13:47:43] <Jymmm> pcw_home: Whats the largest qty order you have fulfilled?
[13:47:53] <jdh> it's a trap
[13:47:58] <pcw_home> maybe 6000
[13:48:25] <Jymmm> pcw_home: single ship or 600/month for 10 months?
[13:48:29] <pcw_home> of a board set with about 4 components
[13:48:37] <Jymmm> oh
[13:48:58] <pcw_home> 4 boards
[13:49:07] <Jymmm> jdh: I think that's it exactly, they can't handle the 10K and up qtys
[13:49:32] <pcw_home> (this was for the banking industry before it went bad...)
[13:49:53] <Jymmm> AATM machine component?
[13:49:57] <Jymmm> ATM
[13:50:44] <Jymmm> no, that wouldn't be in the 6K qty
[13:50:45] <pcw_home> I think its more likely the dont take you seriously enough to do an actual competitive quote
[13:51:09] <pcw_home> drive though electronics
[13:51:42] <Jymmm> pcw_home: I think they are small job shops is what it is. they are not equipted to handle literally tons of raw material.
[13:51:46] <Jymmm> pcw_home: ah
[13:52:39] <pcw_home> Maybe but you can check their size
[13:53:04] <Jymmm> and the larger guys won't even lift a finger for less than mill qty coils.
[13:57:06] <andypugh> Why would you laser-cut 100k parts? I think a set of stamping dies becomes cost-efective in the low-thousands.
[13:59:53] <L84Supper> we work with some vendors that have a small run, proto line and also high volume
[14:17:11] <archivist> designing for production matters :)
[14:31:01] <Loetmichel> andypugh: maybe because one would not want the rounded corner which ist imminent to stamping?
[14:31:26] <L84Supper> sitting here all day making out a list of everything to start a small machine shop, it's going to take most of the day just for all the tooling
[14:35:30] <archivist> I might just get essential tools and add missing stuff as you go along
[14:36:22] <L84Supper> no matter how complete a list you make thee's always something you wish you had when you're in the middle of something :)
[14:38:32] <L84Supper> or things you take for granted
[14:38:40] <archivist> but if you have lots...some gets buried and you spend too much time hunting it down
[14:39:24] <L84Supper> lots of cabinets, bins, drawers, etc
[14:40:00] <archivist> and filled draws are a pain to search though :)
[14:40:53] <archivist> dig it all out find something you wanted last month
[14:40:58] <L84Supper> I love it when somebody says "the screws are in that drawer" and it's 8 inches deep with 20 years of leftover fasteners
[14:42:05] <L84Supper> I try to limit tool drawers to 1 layer deep
[14:42:13] <archivist> and have it all in one workshop else what you want will be in the wrong one
[14:44:06] <L84Supper> somebody once put all the hex keys (metric and sae) into a tool bag, loose..... I'm still sorting them out :)
[14:45:28] <archivist> loose hex keys have to go somewhere !
[14:45:53] <L84Supper> same with drill bits
[14:46:37] <archivist> I have some sets and some "mixed"
[14:47:04] * cpresser is looking for (cheap) SurfaceMount-Receptacles (0.1in pitch), similar to this one: http://media.digikey.com/pdf/Catalog%20Drawings/Connectors/SAM1147-06-v1.jpg
[14:47:34] <cpresser> any ideas where else to search? i already checked Farnell, RS-Online & Digikey
[14:47:41] <L84Supper> SMT?
[14:48:14] <cpresser> Yes, Surface Mount
[14:49:25] <L84Supper> cpresser, I'm surprised Digikey doesn't have them
[14:49:37] <L84Supper> how many pins do you need?
[14:49:57] <cpresser> L84Supper: anyway, those are to expensive; i need them <0.5€; 5 or 6 pins
[14:50:22] <L84Supper> Mouser
[14:50:41] <cpresser> i remember seeing smt-plugs in a SOT-package once, but i cant seem to find any
[14:52:49] <cpresser> like those: http://de.rs-online.com/web/p/leiterplatten-buchsen/6701147/ (but as SMT package)
[14:57:47] <L84Supper> cpresser, something like these? http://www.karlssonrobotics.com/shop/6-pin-right-angle-male-smd-header/?gclid=CNHmi8OxlbMCFexAMgodmVYAAQ
[14:58:29] <cpresser> L84Supper: i already got those (male). Now I just need female ones
[14:58:32] <L84Supper> http://p.globalsources.com/IMAGES/PDT/SPEC/854/K1025768854.pdf
[14:58:41] <L84Supper> oh the sockets
[14:58:43] <cpresser> those look promising: http://de.rs-online.com/web/p/leiterplatten-buchsen/6737458/
[15:01:16] <L84Supper> yeah FCI
[15:02:53] <L84Supper> http://www.precidip.com/catalog/search.asp?c=7
[15:15:58] <L84Supper> http://www.gradconn.com/2-54mm/pdf/BB02-JR.pdf
[15:16:05] <L84Supper> http://www.gradconn.com/2-54mm/pdf/BB02-JS.pdf
[15:17:00] <L84Supper> http://www.globalconnectortechnology.com/connector/?series=BG230
[15:17:07] <L84Supper> http://www.globalconnectortechnology.com/connector/?series=BG300
[15:18:28] <L84Supper> cpresser, ^^ you'll have to check prices
[15:18:53] <cpresser> L84Supper: thank you very much. ill try to get some quotes now
[15:20:10] <L84Supper> http://mlelectronics.com/wp-content/themes/majorLeague/images/_drawings/1/smbc-1-sh.pdf
[15:20:31] <L84Supper> http://mlelectronics.com/wp-content/themes/majorLeague/images/_drawings/1/sshsm-1-sh.pdf
[15:21:02] <L84Supper> http://mlelectronics.com/products/pcb-connectors/100-2-54mm-centerline-pcb-connectors-new/100-2-54mm-centerline-pcb-sockets/100-2-54mm-centerline-pcb-surface-mount-sockets/ from their site ^^
[16:01:38] <r00t4rd3d> My latyest doings:
[16:01:39] <r00t4rd3d> http://imgur.com/a/0IlWb
[16:06:18] <andypugh> Yikes! Our Panamanian correspondant just found that he had 120VAC between the 7i77 and drive, and that was lighting random LEDS. The earth and live in the PC PSU were switched. Clearly PCW makes tough boards. And he was lucky that it wasn't a proper manly 240V supply
[16:09:01] <tjb1> hey r00t4rd3d why doesnt your router look like that?
[16:09:32] <r00t4rd3d> what do you mean?
[16:09:45] <DJ9DJ> gn8
[16:10:08] <tjb1> Why isnt yours sexy aluminum
[16:10:55] <Spida> andypugh: earth and live switched? WTF?
[16:11:55] <andypugh> Yeah, seems like that should prevent the PC starting up.
[16:12:53] <andypugh> Ah, but there are filtering components (live to gnd) in PC PSUs. I bet that explains it.
[16:13:51] <PCW> Yow!
[16:17:38] <L84Supper> hot chassis batman!
[16:19:36] <tjb1> JT-Shop: Can you help with the THC comp file?
[16:27:53] <Guest19554> hi guys!!
[16:28:20] <Guest19554> could you help me with my magnetic linear encoder?
[16:29:05] <andypugh> Possibly. Does it need hitting with hammers, or something more technical?
[16:29:18] <Guest19554> I am not able to use the z pulse... how can I do?
[16:30:06] <Guest19554> with the oscilloscope I can see very well A and B channels but anything from Z channel
[16:30:29] <andypugh> Is there meant to be a Z channel?
[16:30:35] <cradek> you might easily miss it. are you using triggering to find it?
[16:30:45] <L84Supper> how many CO2 laser watts to cut 10 ga aluminum 0.1" (2.5mm)?
[16:30:49] <PCW> Also is Z only at one end or periodic?
[16:31:14] <Guest19554> The real question is, how can the DRO read Z pulse if there is no difference along the magnetic stripe?
[16:31:43] <Guest19554> I dont't know, reading the manual it seems to be periodic...
[16:31:54] <Guest19554> but i'am not sure of this
[16:33:54] <andypugh> You don't need a Z pulse.
[16:34:12] <andypugh> For DRO use it is 100% optional.
[16:34:12] <Guest19554> I cannot understand the principles, In my opinion the encoder should have something on the magnetic stripe that indicates to the DRO the presence of an index pulse..
[16:34:16] <Guest19554> I'am wrong?
[16:34:32] <Guest19554> why not?
[16:34:34] <COOLBG911> Hello>
[16:34:36] <COOLBG911> ?*
[16:34:37] <andypugh> It can just count up and down on the A and B channels.
[16:34:55] <Guest19554> ok, but for homing the axes??
[16:35:11] <Guest19554> what signal I have to use?
[16:35:21] <andypugh> If the scale is intended for DRO use then you don't home the axes.
[16:36:05] <Guest19554> I use the encoder to close the loop on linuxcnc....
[16:36:07] <andypugh> For use with LinuxCNC you would need to add homing switches (you would even need these in the case of a periodic index pulse)
[16:37:00] <andypugh> I am not saying that there are not any index pulses, I am just saying that there might not be. However, if you have a wire for Z then perhaps there ought to be,
[16:37:11] <andypugh> Maybe it is only on one end of the tape?
[16:37:22] <andypugh> Does the manual mention anything?
[16:37:42] <Guest19554> ok.. I was thinking that with the encoder the homing switches will be not necessary
[16:38:11] <Guest19554> the tape has been cut with a pair of common scissor......
[16:39:09] <andypugh> If you had more than one index in your random length, or zero, then you would need a switch.
[16:39:27] <Guest19554> the manual describes very well the installation process but do not provide info on the functionality of the encoder
[16:39:37] <andypugh> It would have to be quite a specific tape to only have one index in just the right place.
[16:40:08] <Guest19554> ok, so I think I need to reinstall my inductive sensor...
[16:41:20] <andypugh> Anything like this? http://www.machine-dro.co.uk/magnetic-linear-encoder-reading-head-25-micron-resolution.html
[16:42:24] <andypugh> Do you have the scale attached to LinuxCNC already?
[16:42:52] <andypugh> It's a simple test to set the index-enable pin manually and see if it goes to zero at any point of the travel.
[16:43:06] <Guest19554> i have bought the encoder on allendale shop
[16:43:08] <Guest19554> GB
[16:43:37] <andypugh> I am not sure if Allendale and machine-dro are not the same company
[16:44:35] <andypugh> (Yes, they are the same, the web sites intermingle)
[16:45:01] <andypugh> There is no mention of index on the specs, but I didn't find a link to proper docs.
[16:45:09] <andypugh> (I am in the UK too)
[16:45:27] <Guest19554> the encoder manual talks about z index
[16:45:48] <Guest19554> so I think the encoder is able to read an index pulse
[16:45:59] <andypugh> Ah, well, I guess you need to find how many there are then :-)
[16:46:47] <Guest19554> anyway, i'm setting the linuxcnc with the pid parameter about my axis, do you know any standard setting from witch I can start tuning?
[16:47:39] <andypugh> Just start with everything zero and a very small P. Maybe 0.0001. Then try 0.001 and so on until it starts moving.
[16:48:15] <andypugh> PID tuning really is a case of trial and error.
[16:48:26] <L84Supper> http://www.mbot3d.com/products/dual-extruder-mk7s as anyone come across a dual extruder that isn't made from leftover hardware parts?
[16:49:26] <Guest19554> the encoder scale is the resoltion steps that the encoder makes in a mm of track?
[16:49:50] <andypugh> Yes
[16:50:06] <PCW> and torque loop tuning is quite different than velocity loop tuning
[16:50:45] <andypugh> L84Supper: I imagine Stratasys make one :-)
[16:51:13] <Guest19554> the linuxcnc give me the joint 0 following error... I think it depends on ferror and fminerror parameters but i don't know how set them in order to avoid the error..
[16:51:16] <L84Supper> andypugh, yeah, something at that at least that level of quality
[16:51:32] <andypugh> Guest19554: You can make a guess at P. You sort of want max voltage output at 1 x f-error
[16:51:40] <PCW> set ferror big for tuning
[16:52:13] <PCW> 25 mm or so
[16:52:24] <Guest19554> ok
[16:52:26] <andypugh> Approx 25.4mm :-)
[16:52:48] <Guest19554> one inches?
[16:52:50] <Guest19554> why?
[16:53:08] <PCW> ferror is mainly a nuisance at this point
[16:53:13] <andypugh> I was trying to be funny
[16:53:43] <andypugh> If were were all properly metrificated it would be 20mm, not 25.
[16:53:43] <PCW> (though faulting after 1 inch of runaway is good)
[16:54:36] <Guest19554> ooooookey! :D
[16:54:52] <Guest19554> it seem to be the same
[16:54:58] <Guest19554> no motion
[16:55:13] <DaViruz> andypugh: i don't understand that idea?
[16:55:27] <PCW> when jogging, no motion
[16:55:31] <PCW> ?
[16:55:40] <DaViruz> just because 25mm is close to one inch, you're forbidden to make something 25mm?
[16:56:24] <PCW> what type of drive?
[16:56:26] <DaViruz> (well forbidden is an unnecessarily strong word)
[16:56:52] <Guest19554> so, guys, I've tested the encoder with an oscope, and it has shown me some quad signals. the trouble is connecting it to the ALREADY WORKING (without encoder) axis, stepper driven
[16:57:21] <andypugh> No, but when choosing random numbers in a decimal system you would naturally choose decimal multiples. You don't guess $12 or 10" do you?
[16:57:32] <Guest19554> I just ran PNCConf and made a dummy configuration where there's an stepgen and encoder, then copied part of that configuration, adapting it to my working HAL setup
[16:58:04] <andypugh> Hmm, this is a fun configuration.
[16:58:17] <DaViruz> andypugh: maybe i'm a bit slow, i see what you mean
[16:58:38] <Guest19554> pins seem to be connected properly, as I see in HAL Configuration watches some activity
[16:59:25] <Guest19554> yeah, I know, it's not the bleeding-edge of industries setup, but I had to improve my precision, so I needed to adopt encoders
[16:59:28] <DaViruz> we are just so free of imperial influences here, when i see 25mm i don't make the association at all.. :-)
[16:59:30] <andypugh> There are a few ways to do this. You could try a PID and a velocity-mode stepgen.
[17:00:14] <andypugh> Or you could use an I-term only PID and add the output to your stepgen command.
[17:00:16] <Guest19554> the stepgen seems to be already in velocity mode, as I can figure out from HAL configuration
[17:00:30] <Guest19554> previously it was in position-cmd mode,
[17:00:38] <andypugh> I didn't realise stepgen had got that clever :-)
[17:01:14] <DaViruz> stupid tmux, missing page up can seriously screw you up..
[17:01:39] <andypugh> You probably need to select Machine->Calibration and set the PID gains
[17:01:46] <PCW> 25 u seems pretty low res for encoder feedback
[17:02:42] <Guest19554> well, it was not that automatic :) I have two axes, X and Y. Both were configured in position mode (using hardware stepgen provided by mesa 7i43 card), so, launching PNCConf and making a dummy configuration, resembling what I wanted to obtain with encoders, e.g, a pair Stepper-encoder, I copied the relevant piece of code, replacing one of the two axes (X) with it
[17:03:13] <PCW> is that 25 u per quadrature edge or per cycle? the data sheet is pretty chary
[17:04:22] <Guest19554> the encoder is 5 u resolution
[17:04:49] <PCW> PID should have FF1 of 1 (assuming normalized scales) and a small bit of P
[17:04:54] <andypugh> PCW: I linked to the cheaper one.
[17:05:25] <Guest19554> what FF parameters are for?
[17:05:44] <andypugh> Feed-Forward
[17:05:49] <kirk_wallace> Are the axis motors steppers, or servo's with step/dir inputs? Is the encoder for catching missed steps or something fancy?
[17:06:21] <PCW> feed forward. before you even start to fix errors with feedback, the PID out (velocity) should be correct)
[17:07:15] <Guest19554> so, for what I want to obtain, what PID parameters should I try?
[17:07:39] <Guest19554> and is 80000 encoder scale a common value? o_O
[17:07:43] <PCW> so if the PID parameters are normalized FF1 will make the output of the PID component = to the current trajectory velocity
[17:08:10] <Guest19554> i'll try that in a second
[17:08:56] <Guest19554> much better
[17:08:59] <Guest19554> it moves
[17:09:01] <Guest19554> but does not stop
[17:09:06] <Guest19554> !!!!
[17:09:22] <Guest19554> have now bot ferrors set to 25
[17:09:33] <Guest19554> P=1, I=0, D=0 and FF1=1
[17:09:43] <andypugh> Generally an indication that the motor scale and encoder scale disagree about left and right.
[17:10:06] <andypugh> Try negating the encoder scale (ie -80000)
[17:10:11] <PCW> Yes positive feedback
[17:10:52] <Guest19554> ok, another second ;)
[17:11:29] <PCW> if the encoder reads the correct direction you may want to change the sign of the stepgen scale instead
[17:13:44] <PCW> wouldn't the encoder scale be 200? (5u = 200 counts/mm)
[17:14:48] <Guest19554> yep, setting it to 200 seems to do a better job! at least in distance proportions
[17:15:40] <PCW> then the stepgen scale needs to match (steps/mm)
[17:16:39] <Guest19554> yep, setting it to 200 seems to do a better job! at least in distance proportions
[17:16:48] <Guest19554> and it makes sense... :D
[17:17:04] <Guest19554> another thing... why when I turn on AXIS, it starts to move? o_O
[17:18:15] <PCW> do you have the feedback direction correct? that is does it eventually stop?
[17:18:30] <Guest19554> with correct scale it stops now
[17:18:46] <PCW> and you can jog it around?
[17:19:17] <Guest19554> we're taking measures with a probe scanner, to figure out if it actually moves by 5mm (for example)
[17:19:28] <Guest19554> seems to be able to jog
[17:21:14] <Guest19554> the measure seems to be accurate (at least, for probe's precision)!!
[17:21:28] <PCW> so that 90% of the problem If you can increase your ustep ratio in the drive you may do better accuracy wise
[17:21:29] <PCW> (so there are more than 200 usteps/mm)
[17:21:51] <Guest19554> in fact, I have microstepping at 32 times
[17:22:22] <PCW> so how many steps/mm is that?
[17:22:23] <Guest19554> now, can you briefly explain how the FF and PID parameters have to be tuned?
[17:22:31] <Guest19554> 200
[17:22:44] <PCW> the same?
[17:22:58] <PCW> more would be better
[17:26:32] <PCW> YOu have what amount to an almost perfect velocity mode drive so
[17:26:34] <PCW> if the PID input and outputs are the same units (+- a d/dt)
[17:26:35] <PCW> FF1 should be 1 (and its should actually work pretty well with only FF1
[17:26:36] <PCW> but you would have some position drift) you pull this in with a little P
[17:28:34] <PCW> (drift because of small timebase differences between 7I43 50 MHz/50000 and linuxCNC 1 ms and small I/O delays and jitter)
[17:28:56] <Guest19554> stepscale is 256 (microstepping 25600) and encoderscale is 200
[17:29:06] <Guest19554> seems to work pretty well
[17:29:21] <Guest19554> with pid and ffs as you say before
[17:29:25] <PCW> 256 step/mm?
[17:29:43] <Guest19554> yes, the motor scale is 256
[17:30:12] <Guest19554> the compensation movments are too slow though
[17:30:14] <PCW> as long as that right then FF1 = 1 is right
[17:30:46] <Guest19554> 256 is the best value reached by intensive tests on our stepper motor
[17:31:29] <Guest19554> but what is the real significate of ffo ff1 and ff2?
[17:31:41] <PCW> compensation should be less than .1% (that is if it does not work fairly well with P=0 its not correct)
[17:35:05] <PCW> FF1 sets the stepgens velocity base on the current trajectory velocity
[17:35:06] <PCW> (FF0 and FF2 make no sense here and must be 0)
[17:35:14] <PCW> based
[17:37:59] <PCW> but FF1 of 1 only works if you have the hardware stepgens scale = encoder scale so the hardware stepgens velocity is scaled directly in mm/s
[17:38:48] <JT-Shop> tjb1: perhaps
[17:39:22] * JT-Shop noticed that a 6 mile hike in the woods makes the puppy tired
[17:39:42] <Guest19554> why increasing jog velocity leads to joint 0 following error?
[17:40:04] <Guest19554> having minferror=0.25 and ferror=1
[17:40:27] <PCW> Because you likely dont have the PID in and out normalized
[17:41:37] <tjb1> JT-Shop: Im going to sample voltage with an arduino and have 2 outputs from it, Torch up and Torch down. I want to be able to activate this with an M code if possible and have it adjust torch accordingly unless current velocity is x% below commanded velocity
[17:42:20] <Guest19554> in other words? I cannot understand...
[17:42:30] <PCW> if it does not move to very close the the right locatiions with p=0, you have
[17:42:32] <PCW> probably have a mismatch between stepscale and encoder scale
[17:42:33] <PCW> (or the PID limits are interfering or something else like that)
[17:42:40] <Guest19554> what do you means for pid in and out not normalized?
[17:42:49] <PCW> same units
[17:43:01] <PCW> normalized = same units
[17:43:30] <PCW> FF1 - 1 assumes normalized
[17:43:41] <PCW> FF1 = 1
[17:45:33] <PCW> you can verify this by setting P to 0. It should still work pretty well (and be fairly accurate)
[17:47:52] <PCW> but it will drift
[17:48:09] <JT-Shop> tjb1: using a custom M code or M1xx?
[17:50:03] <skunkworks> JT-Shop: figure out your error?
[17:50:23] <JT-Shop> no, going to work on it in a bit
[17:51:19] <mutil> so question... just testing out with the splash logo here, but i cant get my zaxis to move the correct direction
[17:51:32] <mutil> is there something i have to do to make it move opposite?
[17:51:37] <skunkworks> we just had a fanuc servo drive go out at work. The solder job on the cable to the servo opened up. (2 phases + 1 flaky phase) seems those drives don't like that ;)
[17:51:45] <JT-Shop> the one your not supposed run :)
[17:52:04] <JT-Shop> mutil: stepper?
[17:52:34] <mutil> you're going to tell me to reverse the wires arent ya
[17:52:35] <mutil> :P
[17:52:59] <skunkworks> or negate the scale on that axis.
[17:52:59] <JT-Shop> no, reverse the sign of the scale
[17:53:12] <mutilator> ah!
[17:53:34] <mutilator> just the scale?
[17:53:50] <JT-Shop> what else do you have?
[17:54:35] <JT-Shop> if it is stepper you can invert the direction pin but not both
[17:56:48] <JT-Shop> skunkworks: did you see sparky's post on the atom mb?
[17:56:56] <mutilator> thanks!
[17:57:23] <mutilator> and one last thing
[17:57:28] <mutilator> how do i make it return home?
[17:57:32] <mutilator> is there a cmd?
[17:58:10] <r00t4rd3d> jt, link?
[18:02:13] <JT-Shop> mutilator: http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/gcode/gcode.html#_g28_g28_1_go_to_predefined_position_a_id_sec_g28_g28_1_a
[18:02:19] <skunkworks> JT-Shop: no
[18:02:22] <skunkworks> where?
[18:02:31] <JT-Shop> hsm
[18:02:46] <JT-Shop> the cnc thread
[18:03:31] <skunkworks> huh
[18:04:12] <JT-Shop> http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/55882-CnC-programs-Turbo-Mach3?p=803557#post803557
[18:04:41] <JT-Shop> why would it matter what processor you have for velocity or torqe mode?
[18:04:47] <skunkworks> I don't know why... You might not be able to get really really high performance from a 1ms servo thread...
[18:05:09] <skunkworks> But for a mill like he has - I would think it would be fine..
[18:05:32] <skunkworks> PCW: was that maybe a comment from you?
[18:06:34] <JT-Shop> well that didn't work, one more thing to try
[18:09:04] <Guest19554> i cannot reach higher velocity values
[18:09:07] <Guest19554> :(
[18:09:42] <PCW> did you look at the min and max PID limits
[18:09:45] <Guest19554> jog velocity seems to be limited to 400/550
[18:10:10] <tjb1> JT-Shop: Whatever will work
[18:10:39] <L84Supper> http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/12/10/22/207227/diy-laser-cutter-raises-capital-concerns wooden frame 40W laser project :)
[18:11:17] <L84Supper> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1427848145/build-your-own-laser-cutter
[18:14:57] <JT-Shop> tjb1: you can set pins in M1xx if that is what you mean
[18:15:02] <PCW> Torque mode requires LinuxCNCs PID lop to run the velocity part of the loop
[18:15:04] <PCW> this often requires more than 1 KHz sample rate (=~300 Hz bandwidth)
[18:15:05] <PCW> but it may be fine depending on the machine mechanical bandwidth
[18:17:32] <JT-Shop> ok if I hook both shield and - from the drive velocity input to the 100 ohm resistor then on to the IN- on the 7i77 it worked for one test run of the splash code
[18:19:27] <PCW> May also be related to where the PC is plugged in (ideally it should get its power from mill control 120V)
[18:20:27] <JT-Shop> the mill and the PC are plugged into seperate circuits
[18:20:43] <PCW> noise mean that theres more than ~1V HF dropped along the IEEE cable ground
[18:20:58] <PCW> That may be part of the issue
[18:21:45] <PCW> (that an the fact that the drives dont appear to have differential inputs so you end up with a common ground)
[18:23:34] <JT-Shop> so should I leave the 100 ohm resistor in the circuit and call it a day? I put both on the same circuit.
[18:24:46] <PCW> I would guess is will work without the resistor if the PC is on the mills 120V
[18:24:59] <skunkworks> pcw - would voltage mode act about the same?
[18:25:00] <JT-Shop> I'll give that a try in a bit
[18:25:26] <JT-Shop> time to take Cocoa for a swim
[18:25:38] <PCW> you mean bare HBridge voltage mode?
[18:25:42] <skunkworks> right
[18:25:55] <PCW> have a nice swim cocoa
[18:25:57] <skunkworks> most amc drives can do voltage mode also
[18:26:07] <JT-Shop> she loves the water
[18:26:29] <PCW> Voltage mode is sometimes easier to tune
[18:26:55] <PCW> Charlie likes the water but he just wades
[18:27:09] <PCW> (in the bay)
[18:27:26] <skunkworks> PCW: same issue though? (1ms thread?)
[18:28:10] <PCW> voltage mode has inherent high frequency damping (since the motor sees a low impedance voltage source)
[18:28:31] <PCW> that helps a bit
[18:29:22] <skunkworks> so it is velocity, voltage, current as far as bandwidth goes
[18:29:34] <skunkworks> (least to most)
[18:29:40] <PCW> yes
[18:29:59] <skunkworks> Thanks for the 101 :)
[18:31:07] <ve7it> anyone run an A/C tig welder here? I want to know if the HF arc start circuit runs only at the start of the weld or all the time
[18:31:51] <PCW> 1 KHz may be just fine for a torque loop depending on machine performance
[18:32:06] <tjb1> JT-Shop: I would like to activate torch height comp with an M number and cancel it with an M number
[18:36:20] <r00t4rd3d> mkay
[18:41:56] <Valen> PCW what would you suggest running a torque loop at khz wise?
[18:42:15] <Valen> ve7it: there are 2 parts to the hf part
[18:42:25] <Valen> it depends on the welder
[18:42:38] <Valen> lower end ones may just have a hf start then go to straight AC
[18:42:55] <Valen> better ones will overlay some HF on the arc to stabilise it
[18:43:30] <PCW> It really depends on the mechanical resonant frequency of your "plant"
[18:44:09] <Valen> finding that out feels non trivial
[18:44:31] <PCW> 1/2PI sqrt(F/M)
[18:44:35] <pfred1> I need a bottle of argon
[18:44:53] <Valen> F and M are force and mass respectivley?
[18:44:55] <ve7it> Valen, I am trying to figure out controls on a tig... would like to build one.... running the traditional hf for the full arc generated a lot of noise, but i can see when welding Al with A/C, there might be an advantage to full time HF start
[18:44:55] <PCW> pfeds sniffin argon
[18:44:57] <pfred1> I hardly ever weld anymore though
[18:45:09] <PCW> Yes
[18:45:24] <Valen> pfred1: we found a supplier that would let us buy the bottle
[18:45:26] <Valen> not rent it
[18:45:36] <pfred1> I broke a pair of loppers trimming some wild fruit trees i nthe front yard and had to weld the handle back together
[18:45:45] <pfred1> oh i own all of my tanks outright
[18:45:46] <r00t4rd3d> lol
[18:45:49] <Valen> so its like $400 up front, but it pays for it self in a year or two
[18:45:57] <Valen> then we can just swap them
[18:46:00] <pfred1> my argon tank is a 330 cuft one
[18:46:18] <pfred1> bigger than a big oxidizer tank
[18:46:19] <Valen> oh, thats new here, plenty of suppliers told us it was illegal for us to own the bottles
[18:46:37] <pfred1> well I didn't say I got my tanks 100% legally
[18:46:48] <Valen> ve7it: our welder does HF start and stabiliser, it winds it down during welding
[18:46:54] <pfred1> but possession is 9/10s of the law and no one can track me down
[18:46:55] <r00t4rd3d> did you pirate them?
[18:46:58] <Valen> but AC welding is always stupid loud
[18:47:04] <Valen> torrented em r00t4rd3d i'll wager
[18:47:09] <andypugh> There are ways to do that in the UK now, I think both Aire Liquide (Albec?) and BOC offer it. But it's £100 for the cylinder and £40 per fill. The regulator is built-in.
[18:47:27] <pfred1> built in regulator?
[18:47:36] <andypugh> Thinking about it, that's a no-brainer compared to the £27 I pay every 2 months.
[18:47:44] <pfred1> first off for MIG and TIG you need a flowmeter
[18:47:51] <Valen> spose that makes some sense, your not going to knock it off
[18:48:32] <Valen> andypugh: thats why we bought ours outright, we were going to have to get rid of the argon otherwise which was just sucky
[18:48:42] <Valen> dad likes stick welding, i think it looks crap
[18:49:00] <pfred1> I like stick welding because there is nothing to it
[18:49:09] <pfred1> just stuff a stick into the stinger and go
[18:49:20] <andypugh> It can look really nice, if you are really good.
[18:49:35] <Valen> yeah if you do the same stuff all the time
[18:49:53] <pfred1> welding is setup and dialing in
[18:49:54] <Valen> PCW so what should we run controll loop at vs mechanical resonance?
[18:50:07] <Valen> pfred1: TIG means never having to say your sorry ;->
[18:50:16] <pfred1> TIG is slow
[18:50:27] <pfred1> it sucks hard in inside corners too
[18:50:38] <pfred1> the arc wavers all over the place then
[18:50:57] <pfred1> I prefer MIG for inside corners
[18:51:08] <skunkworks> PCW: make sense? http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/55882-CnC-programs-Turbo-Mach3?p=803569#post803569
[18:51:35] <Valen> pfred1: grind your electrode better ;->
[18:51:44] <pfred1> Valen not an issue
[18:51:46] <Valen> also anything other than tig sucks for aluminium
[18:51:59] <pfred1> ever stick welded aluminum?
[18:52:04] <pfred1> its pretty cool!
[18:52:12] <Valen> cant say that I have
[18:52:16] <JT-Shop> my spool gun rocks on aluminum
[18:52:18] <pfred1> except when you have to buy the electrodes
[18:52:23] <pfred1> then it isn't so cool
[18:52:24] <ve7it> even DC stick sucks on inside corners
[18:52:24] <Valen> I have DC tiged Al though
[18:52:46] <Valen> oh our tig is AC/DC so that might make the difference pfred1
[18:53:05] <pfred1> ve7it consumable electrode just works better for me on inside corners
[18:53:18] <Valen> just put a sharp point on the tungsten and you can control the arc well enough
[18:53:26] <JT-Shop> PCW: do you sell the M3 standoffs to fit your cards?
[18:53:33] <pfred1> Valen my TIG is AC/DC CC
[18:53:40] <Valen> CC?
[18:53:43] <pfred1> I have a Miller
[18:53:47] <pfred1> Constant Current
[18:53:58] <pfred1> true blue
[18:54:06] <Valen> we have some huge green thing
[18:54:17] <Valen> has eleventy buttons on the front
[18:54:30] <Valen> 4 button mode, crater fill, all the bells and whistles
[18:54:43] <tjb1> JT-Shop: Did you get the last one?
[18:54:45] <pfred1> mine is fixed freq it only has a current knob and a polarity switch
[18:55:03] <pfred1> well for the TIG i use a gas pedal
[18:55:21] <Valen> I have always wanted a pedal
[18:55:29] * JT-Shop loves my Millermatic 212 and my Miller Syncrowave 180 and the Miller Passport
[18:55:42] <JT-Shop> tjb1: ?
[18:56:04] <pfred1> my torch isn't water cooled either
[18:56:29] <JT-Shop> yea mine gets real hot quick on bigger stuff
[18:56:30] <ve7it> http://www3.telus.net/public/a5a26316/TIG_Welder.html interesting notes on building a TIG addon to a buzz box
[18:56:39] <tjb1> JT-Shop: I would like activate the THC with an M code and turn it off with an M code
[18:56:44] <pfred1> if it is bigger I stick it
[18:57:07] <pfred1> heck right now I'm stick welding everything
[18:57:08] <JT-Shop> tjb1: ok you can setp a bit with Mxx
[18:57:20] <pfred1> those handles were like 20 gauge
[18:57:24] <ve7it> the web page sucks, but the technical content is better than most
[18:57:32] <tjb1> step a bit
[18:57:41] <tjb1> ?
[18:57:57] <JT-Shop> setp not step
[18:58:15] <JT-Shop> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/gcode/m-code.html#_m100_to_m199_user_defined_commands_a_id_sec_m100_to_m199_a
[18:58:19] <Valen> actually my welding torch doesn't get hot, even when doing 200A into Al its rather unusual in that regard
[18:58:25] <Valen> not water cooled or anything
[18:59:26] <JT-Shop> I usually don't TIG Al, I wonder if it acts different than TIGing SS?
[18:59:37] <Valen> very
[18:59:51] <Valen> you still AC weld the Al yes?
[19:00:26] <JT-Shop> I'd have to look at my cheatsheet LOL
[19:00:38] <Valen> stainless doesn't conduct heat well at all so getting a little puddle is easy, Al conducts assloads of heat so its really easy to melt stuff
[19:00:45] <Valen> i mean melt the part lol
[19:01:04] <pfred1> yeah aluminum blows out easily
[19:01:13] <Valen> I make allot of use of things like pulse mode and multi level with Al
[19:01:20] <JT-Shop> yea Al is AC High Frequency
[19:01:58] <Valen> pulse mode in my welder lets me put out say 130A for .4 of a second then 60A for .8 of a second
[19:02:09] <Valen> and it'll just keep cycling
[19:02:28] <ve7it> good way to blink the lights!
[19:02:55] <Valen> so you just run in time with it move the puddle during the high current, then dip during the low current
[19:03:16] <ve7it> HF start really pisses off the ham radio guys
[19:03:42] <Valen> then after welding for 20 seconds, tap the button to knock 30% of the power off both parts of the cycle because the Al is now hot lol
[19:03:53] <JT-Shop> easier for me to just grab the spool gun on the 212 and fire away
[19:03:53] <Valen> all while welding, its great lol
[19:04:32] * Valen wagers he gets better penetration in the 15mm thick Al he was welding
[19:05:08] * JT-Shop won't bet cause he don't weld Al very often
[19:05:26] <Valen> ve7it: the HF start on ours is super potent lol
[19:05:28] <pfred1> there is actually aluminum solder that works pretty good
[19:05:59] <Valen> i accidentally hit it while changing a tungsten and it jumped about 8CM, into my left hand
[19:06:19] <Valen> earthing out through my crotch which was thankfully in full contact with the welding bench
[19:07:07] <Valen> i got a weirdass burn thing through the welding glove and a patch of skin the size of a 20c piece came off my finger
[19:07:18] <Valen> like it wasn't burnt, it just all fell off
[19:07:33] <ve7it> yea, the HF start basically adds a tesla coil output to the electrode
[19:08:20] <ve7it> an RF burn... they are nasty, but usually very shallow damage
[19:08:34] <Valen> didnt hurt so I'm ok with it
[19:08:42] <Valen> hurt like a bitch and a half when it happened
[19:09:10] <Valen> I've been electrocuted with 240v more than once but the hf start was the worst lol
[19:09:37] <pfred1> frequency makes electricity more agressive
[19:09:40] <skunkworks> wow - my laptop actually lasted 2.5 hours on its old battery with 12.04
[19:10:02] <Valen> I don't think it was a RF burn
[19:10:14] <Valen> the HF is just like a rapid spark
[19:10:32] <Valen> guessing like 300hz or so
[19:10:57] <ve7it> http://www3.telus.net/public/a5a26316/WelderPDFs_Pics/dbARC_START.pdf primative, but effective HF start box... HF start is around 1Mhz, so it tends to travel over the surface of the skin instead of through your body
[19:11:10] <Valen> well thats not the one i have lol
[19:11:45] <pfred1> ve7it yeah HF causes current skin effect
[19:12:10] <pfred1> ve7it I knew a guy who installed MRIs and they said they don't even use cables the use copper plumbing pipe
[19:12:28] <pfred1> because the HF current never gets t othe core of the wire anyways
[19:13:04] <ve7it> plus you can water cool pipes
[19:13:05] <Valen> mine sounds more like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3IZC4cSjSU
[19:13:20] <pfred1> he didn't say if they water cooled them or not
[19:13:28] <pfred1> just that it was pointless to have copper core
[19:13:35] <pfred1> waste of copper
[19:14:51] <ve7it> that video is tesla coil style... notice the spark gaps.... that excites the RF circuit and couples the HF onto the electrode cable
[19:15:33] <Valen> either way, it hurts like a bitch and jumped about 8cm ;-P
[19:15:52] <pfred1> Tesla is high on my list of people I wouldn't mind traveling back in time to meet
[19:16:08] <Valen> he was a bit of a nutter, but more successfull than most ;->
[19:16:12] <ve7it> that is hot.... 1/2cm would be loads long enough
[19:16:30] <pfred1> Valen all the fun people are nutters
[19:16:32] <Valen> most of the time it will get about an inch
[19:17:03] <pfred1> I'd want to meet him before he struck a deal with Westinghouse
[19:18:29] <pfred1> perhaps when he had his AC system vision that would be an awesome event to witness
[19:19:11] <pfred1> supposedly he was walking in a park with a friend and he just stopped
[19:20:43] <pfred1> Tesla had the ability to 3D model in his head
[19:25:17] <JT-Shop> can't everyone do that?
[19:25:47] <JT-Shop> just don't ask me what color to paint something, I won't have a clue
[19:25:48] <pfred1> JT-Shop apparently not
[19:27:43] <jdh> I pay $15/year/bottle for 330ft gas bottle lease
[19:28:06] <jdh> buying them would never be worthwhile.
[19:28:25] <pfred1> I found mine in an abandoned warehouse
[19:28:36] <ve7it> nice... mine got up to $95/bottle
[19:28:45] <jdh> geez
[19:29:30] <JT-Shop> where can you get M3 standoffs?
[19:29:48] <jdh> gas prices are mostly made up on the spot. Same for bottle lease
[19:30:20] <jdh> JT: allied, digikey, mouser?
[19:30:32] <JT-Shop> hmmm
[19:30:44] <pfred1> jdh the way it was explained to me is the gas price hardly matters it is all labor costs
[19:30:53] <jdh> newark, mcmaster, msc
[19:31:03] <jdh> ebay, aliexpress
[19:31:32] <JT-Shop> mcmaster and msc don't have them, I've looked before
[19:31:39] <jdh> pfred1: I buy o2 from the same place as 2 others I know. I pay $12, one pays $28, one pays $60
[19:32:03] <jdh> http://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?SearchText=m3+standoff&catId=0&manual=y
[19:32:31] <pfred1> jdh maybe you buy more gas?
[19:32:42] <jdh> I used hollow standoffs and bolts for my mesa cards
[19:33:12] <Valen> computer shops have standoffs in that size
[19:33:19] <Valen> in metric or imperial
[19:33:31] <Valen> for motherboards
[19:33:36] <JT-Shop> that's where I got mine till I ran out then I started making them
[19:33:52] <JT-Shop> 6-32 male threads and M3 female
[19:33:54] <jdh> mcmaster has them. pricey though
[19:34:21] <Tom_itx> JT-Shop recycles all his scrap in his cannons
[19:34:38] <JT-Shop> LOL
[19:35:12] <pfred1> I have a lot of D sub hardware
[19:35:19] <pfred1> they're kind of like stand offs
[19:35:24] <Tom_itx> a bit small
[19:35:38] <jdh> they are usually 2-56 aren't they?
[19:35:49] <pfred1> no they're bigger than that
[19:35:54] <Tom_itx> i don't think they're that small
[19:36:20] <jdh> $0.01/each from aliexpress, free shipping
[19:36:23] <Tom_itx> i've seen odd standoffs with M3 female and some odd coarse thread on the male
[19:36:44] <jdh> male side for half-ass-tapped sheet metal?
[19:37:07] <Tom_itx> yeah
[19:37:46] <pfred1> 4-40 I just checked
[19:37:51] <Tom_itx> i think so
[19:38:38] <pfred1> if they're a bit small you can always slap a washer on them anyways
[19:39:21] <Tom_itx> jdh, like these: http://www.aliexpress.com/item/50-X-Brass-6-32-Standoff-Screw-Standoffs-Screw-M3-Hex/496182554.html
[19:39:38] <Tom_itx> mixed standard threads
[19:39:57] <jdh> those cost too much.
[19:40:00] <JT-Shop> that is what you find on computers
[19:40:06] <Tom_itx> yep
[19:40:58] <JT-Shop> you guys want to laugh http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/56277-Shop-Gantry
[19:41:16] <JT-Shop> chow time
[19:42:10] <pfred1> I have an H beam collection
[19:42:26] <pfred1> I'd snag them off jobs
[19:46:47] <tjb1> crook
[19:47:06] <pfred1> I did demolition
[19:47:24] <pfred1> they were my jobs
[19:47:46] <tjb1> :)
[19:48:48] <Tecan> anyone here design electronics ?
[19:48:55] <pfred1> I do
[19:49:06] <Tecan> can i pm ?
[19:49:13] <pfred1> I designed all of the electronics for my CNC machine
[19:49:27] <pfred1> the best part is it all works :)
[19:49:47] <tjb1> how can you be sure
[19:51:13] <pfred1> tjb1 because I've used it
[19:51:24] <tjb1> pfred1: Just messin with ya
[19:51:33] <pfred1> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHPKaHLzXes
[20:04:26] <Tecan> too much backlash lol
[20:06:52] <pfred1> when I tested that mechanism in its guide it was accurate to 0.001
[20:07:25] <pfred1> landed the indicator needle the same place every time
[20:08:58] <pfred1> that kooky thing in the video is inside this http://i.imgur.com/PHZCW.jpg
[20:10:51] <pfred1> I need to take some new pictures of how the Y axis is shaping up
[20:13:04] <pfred1> well I'm off to laugh at the debates
[20:13:18] <pfred1> see who can lie more
[21:04:15] <Tom_itx> i nearly forgot about that
[21:04:37] <pcw_home> I tried to forget about it
[21:05:34] <jdh> I voted Saturday. May I be excused from any further campaign ads or harrassing phone calls?
[21:05:58] <Tom_itx> NO!
[21:11:56] <Valen> I'd vote for the guy who doesn't want wind down windows on aeroplanes
[21:24:17] <L84Supper> How often does magic underwear need to be changed?
[21:26:05] <pcw_home> I'd vote for the guy whose not just a front for the big lobbys , oh wait..
[21:26:26] <r00t4rd3d> if they are magic they would change on their own
[23:05:43] <r00t4rd3d> This is cash:
[23:05:45] <r00t4rd3d> http://imgur.com/a/LEa4T
[23:14:25] <r00t4rd3d> I even lined up the weaves from top to front/back panel
[23:14:38] <r00t4rd3d> somewhat, close enough
[23:15:19] <r00t4rd3d> I dont have the hinges on it yet so I can make it perfect :D