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[01:46:57] <skorket> http://imgur.com/46dQ1 ...What do you guys think?
[01:55:37] <BHSPiMonkey> skorket: sweet. context?
[01:57:27] <skorket> cnc routing of a pcb. should be 20mil trace, 20mil clearance, but I don't think that's right. I did something wrong and the trace and the clearance are much lower than that...
[01:57:35] <skorket> it looks like 6-9mil trace width, maybe?
[01:58:07] <BHSPiMonkey> well it's better than I would know how to do
[01:58:20] <skorket> 28mil clearance? anyway, I have to play around with it
[01:58:49] <DJ9DJ> moin
[02:24:29] <skorket> I'm concerned I've screwed up my spindle. I shoved it into the work...would that cause it to increase it's runout?
[03:12:33] <Loetmichel> mornin'
[03:34:24] * Loetmichel looks like after a fight with the housecat... AGAIN... 30µm copper foil tape ist like a razor... THIRD bandaid attached this morning...
[04:10:05] <Valen> lol what are you doing Loetmichel?
[04:55:53] <Loetmichel> Valen: making a notebook Tempest-proof
[04:56:23] <Loetmichel> ... trying to :-)
[05:04:38] <r00t4rd3d> http://i.imgur.com/nAhBg.jpg
[09:08:20] <Valen> Loetmichel: how does foil "tempest proof" stuff?
[09:08:30] <Valen> unless its an EMI storm?
[09:13:04] <gmouer> few years back I remember a foil for shielding EMI, it was called mu-metal as I recall, used on military radio equipment
[09:23:22] <mazafaka> gmouer: just any steel with Fe as chemical element, also called 'radio steel', the one lacking the carbon as much as it could be. Ferrum itself has such physical capabilities as covering the magnetic radiation, or conducting it if it is of a prooper shape.
[09:27:57] <Loetmichel> Valen: hardened against eavesdropping, does Sdip-27 ring a bell?
[09:29:52] <mazafaka> Loetmichel: my mill
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIDsnhCbzv8
[09:30:24] <Loetmichel> gmouer: and we use anything from copper foiul over aluminium foil over special dampening felt ofer frrite plates/beads and even copper/ni-layquer
[09:31:23] <Loetmichel> but the copper foil is the worst, the cuts of it wont heal.
[09:35:33] <mazafaka> copper for electric radiation?
[09:41:09] <mazafaka> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4P3u7ydvPo
[09:50:55] <tjb1> damn machine hsop here is a sweat shop
[09:52:51] <Loetmichel> MarkusBec: right
[09:53:03] <Loetmichel> grr
[09:53:05] <Loetmichel> mazafaka
[09:55:33] <jdh> tjb1: go on strike.
[09:56:11] <tjb1> jdh: Need to turn the damn ac on in there...
[09:56:16] <Loetmichel> jdh: so he gets replaced with a dozen cheaper cinese kids?
[10:04:26] <mazafaka> Loetmichel: what?
[10:36:00] <r00t4rd3d> http://www.welldonestuff.com/2012/09/usb-flash-drive-concept.html
[10:36:46] <r00t4rd3d> I could use something like that
[11:17:59] <mazafaka> r00t4rd3d:
http://a.d-cd.net/e1ca9cu-960.jpg
[11:25:15] <gmouer> Is Mesa Pete aka PCW usually around here? I have some mesa/servo drive questions for him
[11:26:10] <awallin> gmouer: yes, he is around quite a lot... just ask
[11:27:31] <skunkworks> (usually if you mention his name - he shows up)
[11:27:49] <gmouer> I have a bridgeport currently running under mach that I want to switch to emc but I want to chance the servo drives at the same time, thats where the problem lies
[11:28:05] <awallin> better change to servo motors also :)
[11:28:27] <skunkworks> what are the drives?
[11:28:34] <gmouer> Hi skunkworks! I have that lack of tachometer signal issue with the bridgeport also if I swap it to linuxcnc
[11:28:38] <skunkworks> I would guess some sort of step/dir?
[11:28:56] <skunkworks> well.... You really don't need a tach..
[11:28:58] <cradek> what do you have?
[11:29:06] <gmouer> the original powertron servos "had" tachs but they were disabled, the brushes removed
[11:29:34] <gmouer> I could fake the tach signal for new drives through the mesa board using the encoder velocity BUT
[11:29:52] <cradek> why not put the brushes back?
[11:30:19] <gmouer> brushes are long gone, plus not sure if tachs worked before
[11:30:20] <cradek> where are the original drives?
[11:30:54] <gmouer> original drives long gone also, have dugong step/dir drives now, encoder ties to the drive
[11:30:57] <cradek> brushes are everyday replaceable items
[11:31:29] <cradek> argh, machine is ruined by a mach conversion :-/
[11:31:42] <skunkworks> heh
[11:31:49] <skunkworks> gmouer, learned the hard way...
[11:32:23] <gmouer> actually the machine works pretty darned good under mach, but now that I have used emc, I want to switch the mill over too
[11:32:23] <skunkworks> cradek, gmouer is another one to used the simulated velocity back to the servo drive on one of his other projects.
[11:32:40] <cradek> ok sorry, now that we know the terrible spot you're in, what's your actual question?
[11:33:18] <gmouer> prob with simulating the tachs is that it takes a analog channel for each servo, x4 in my case
[11:33:57] <cradek> what are you trying to replace your drives with?
[11:34:00] <skunkworks> gmouer, you do have another option. Lots of drives allow you to set them to voltage/current mode. No velocity loop. Then you tune accordingly. (lots of people do...) I have the B axis of the k&t tuned that way.
[11:34:26] <gmouer> I seen amc drives that can use the encoder for velocity feedback but not in the higher voltage/current I need
[11:35:19] <gmouer> just checking out my options
[11:35:35] <cradek> getting brushes and getting extra dac outputs are both straightforward answers
[11:35:47] <cradek> and I guess keeping your working drives is also straightforward
[11:36:22] <gmouer> yes, the but the dugong drives just don't tune well, constant problems with dither since day one
[11:36:31] <skunkworks> yeck
[11:36:52] <gmouer> I got spoiled tuning using emc's pid loop, sooooo nice
[11:37:59] <gmouer> well, maybe investigating getting the tachs working again might be the best solution then it seems
[11:38:05] <skunkworks> so - you either buy brushes or buy an extra daughter board for the 5i25 (if you don't want to do voltage/current mode on the amps - which is harder to tune well imho)
[11:39:32] <gmouer> I have a different motor on the knee, a allen bradley, that has no tach but I could fake that one tach signal which wouldn't be bad
[11:39:44] <skunkworks> I think our BE40a40 do encoder feedback...
[11:40:10] <skunkworks> for velocity
[11:40:47] <skunkworks> (remember the B for brushless drives are normally convertable to brushed....)
[11:40:54] <skunkworks> for AMC
[11:41:01] <gmouer> That was sort of my idea, if I ditch the dugong drives, maybe there are some reasonable priced drives that could use the encoder for velocity feedback, I am going to check out the BE40a40, thats for the tip
[11:41:32] <gmouer> yea, I seen that amc's brushless drives can run brushed motors also, nice feature!
[11:42:02] <cradek> yes I have one of those on my rotary table (brushed motor)
[11:42:20] <gmouer> the dither in the dugong drives has driven me nuts since day one, never totally got rid of it
[11:42:22] <cradek> iirc, it has a real tach.
[11:43:37] <gmouer> the block diagram for the amc drives shows a frequency to voltage converter for using encoder velocity for feedback, about the same as I did in hal with emc
[11:44:03] <gmouer> only they did it in the drive
[11:44:35] <gmouer> so far, I have leaned towards amc drives, are you guys happy with them?
[11:44:54] <cradek> the hm2 driver is smarter than that: it uses sub-period timestamps to give a better velocity estimate
[11:45:18] <cradek> er, hmm f->v in the analog realm would be something like that too
[11:45:24] <cradek> forget what I said
[11:46:07] <gmouer> figured I would throw some of the ideas out there , don't want to make bad choices again
[11:47:11] <fragalot> anyone here got good suggestions for 4th and 5th axis' for mills ?
[11:48:27] <gmouer> I used a vertex 6" rotary table for a 4th axis, works well
[11:48:45] <Gabe_W> Does anyone know how to use the python-rtai modules?
[11:49:04] <Gabe_W> i get liblxrt error's when i try to import them
[11:49:29] <awallin> gmouer: any tricks to get rid of backlash? this was a manual rotary that you added a motor to?
[11:53:08] <gmouer> yes, a manual rotary table, the vertex has adjustable backlash and is pretty good quality, other brands have been tried but problems with backlash, the vertex is the preferred brand for that reason
[11:55:35] <gmouer> I drive the vertex rotary table with a nema23 570oz stepper from kelling and a gecko drive
[11:56:40] <archivist> I make sure my gcode is unidirectional for my rotary (Vertex too)
[11:57:13] <gmouer> I suppose you could comp out any tiny remaining backlash too
[11:58:52] <gmouer> skunkworks: the BE40A40 drives does not have encoder velocity feedback provisions, it can use hall sensor feedback for velocity though
[12:01:56] <IchGuckLive> HI all :O
[12:16:08] <skunkworks> gmouer, I think the E designates encoder velocity. They say the be40a40 is discontinued but this
http://www.a-m-c.com/download/datasheet/be40a20.pdf shows encoder feedback
[12:16:31] <skunkworks> I will have to find the spec sheet - I think I have it here somewhere.
[12:23:01] <gmouer> I have been learning amc's drives available, bridgeport will need about 15-20 amps cont, maybe 30 peak and 130 volts or so
[12:24:24] <gmouer> the retrofit is a ways off, just doing some the homework so I can start gathering parts
[12:25:31] <skunkworks> ebay
[12:26:11] <gmouer> yup, good ole ebay.... working on a ebay hit list
[12:34:56] <sliptonic> I'm reading the various wikipedia pages and linuxcnc documentation about servo loop tuning and I'm confused.
[12:35:08] <sliptonic> Integrator manual talks about setting PID.
[12:35:55] <sliptonic> But JT-Shop's tutorial (
http://gnipsel.com/linuxcnc/tuning/servo.html) sets I and D to zero and adjusts FF1.
[12:36:25] <sliptonic> Is there a comprehensive tutorial or documentation that brings these things together?
[12:37:11] <JT-Shop> P and I and D and FF1 and FF2 and FF3 do different things and depending on the application which ones you might need
[12:38:04] <JT-Shop> for a velocity drive you need some, for a torqe drive you might need to use different one and for a spindle something else is used
[12:39:01] <cpresser> sliptonic: the tutorial is 'visit a lecture about control theory'
[12:39:05] <JT-Shop> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PID_controller
[12:40:39] <JT-Shop> looks pretty comprehensive to me
[12:41:23] <JT-Shop> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_theory
[12:41:40] * JT-Shop goes to take a nap
[12:41:44] <sliptonic> Thanks JT-Shop
[12:42:11] <JT-Shop> np
[13:02:23] <jdh> we still have some huge ProLoop(tm) dedicated PID controllers.
[13:02:28] <mazafaka> JT-Shop:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIDsnhCbzv8
[13:02:51] <pcw_home> For velocity mode drives at least its important to tune FF1 first (with just a low amount of P)
[13:02:53] <pcw_home> since the other terms since I especially will obscure FF1 adjustments
[13:02:57] <jdh> you adjust them with this weird configurator that looks like an ancient TI30 calculator with different keys.
[13:03:43] <pcw_home> and I especially
[13:04:06] <mazafaka> What do you guys think of thin chip for stainless steel - 0.125''
[13:04:41] <mazafaka> oh, no, 0.002''
[13:05:49] <mazafaka> This mm-in is 'I am a mathematician' thing... :)
[13:11:11] <IchGuckLive> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjrgwZLGb4M 12 Head (part )cnc
[13:11:43] <IchGuckLive> and etch head is coliding with the fixure
[13:11:48] <IchGuckLive> bad G-code
[13:13:27] <kb8wmc> IchGuckLive: that is a nice machine
[13:14:10] <IchGuckLive> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UDaBuAjUD4 <- Better for money making
[13:21:10] <IchGuckLive> amaldo is this yours ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AW6M3FdSSnk
[13:25:55] <IchGuckLive> im off by
[14:04:49] <mazafaka> Have just finished the document which regulates the routine of milling when the time wirk takes is being measured to calculate the revenue of workers according to payment rates/ We will think of it tomorrow at work...
[14:05:27] <mazafaka> s/it/wirk
[14:50:00] <mutilator> alright guys, bosch colt or rigid 2401?
[15:42:50] <JT-Shop> nuffofthisworkshit... time to play
[16:15:34] <r00t4rd3d> Great halloween costume:
[16:15:35] <r00t4rd3d> http://i.imgur.com/ezusl.jpg
[16:16:25] <BHSPiMonkey> r00t4rd3d: *disapproving groan*
[16:18:51] <DJ9DJ> gn8
[16:26:43] <r00t4rd3d> Venezuelan pipe repair:
[16:26:46] <r00t4rd3d> http://i.imgur.com/twJo5.jpg
[16:37:24] <gmouer> PCE: On a 7i77, is a unused GPIO pin able to be used for step/dir for a stepper motor, is it fast enough?
[16:37:38] <gmouer> PCW, Pete I mean't
[16:40:51] <andypugh> It could be done. There is an option to run a base thread with the hm2_5i25.0.read-gpio and write-gpio threads in it.
[16:41:51] <gmouer> great, I might want to use a single stepper motor along with the servos, thanks
[16:44:10] <PCW> umm... there are no unused GPIO bits on the 7I77
[16:44:35] <PCW> (by GPIO I mean at the FPGA interface)
[16:45:08] <gmouer> opps, thought unused pins on the 7i77 could be used for GPIO I read
[16:45:26] <PCW> all pins are used
[16:45:58] <gmouer> must be mixing it up with the 7i76 I have also
[16:47:02] <PCW> theres no reason not to use the second connector on the the 5I25 for a hardware stepgen (or GPIO) however
[16:47:54] <PCW> if you use the 7I77/7I76 config there are 5 available step/dir outputs on P2
[16:48:33] <gmouer> Thought I recalled in pncconf that if you used less than the number of devices those unused pins were showed as GPIO in the pncconf setup screen
[16:48:48] <PCW> so if you dont need buffering/isolation you can use the 5I25 lines directly
[16:49:25] <PCW> Yes but the signals going to the 7I77 are committed
[16:50:23] <PCW> but the second 5I25/6I25 connector is free
[16:50:29] <gmouer> now I understand... The second 5i25 port is easy enough, a cheap breakout board would give the isolation
[16:51:36] <gmouer> thanks much Pete, love the 7i76 and 7i77 combos I got
[16:51:41] <andypugh> You could put a normal D-sub header on it and pretend it's a parallel port. Albeit rather a quick one.
[16:51:50] <PCW> You can cheat and get one high speed output from the 7I77 (the serial out)
[16:53:08] <PCW> Yeah you can use the second port as just GPIO, or use a 7I77/7I76 config or a 7I77/7I78 config to get some hardware stepgens on the second port
[16:54:47] <PCW> Theres probotics BOB config as well but I dont think theres a 7I77/PRB config ATM
[16:55:11] <r00t4rd3d> Super Skyrim Bros. -
http://i.imgur.com/yWkVw.jpg
[16:55:38] <PCW> andypugh: did you mention that you had a utility to write sserial parameters?
[16:55:52] <andypugh> Not yet.
[16:56:12] <gmouer> well, you gave me some options for driving that single stepper motor, thanks
[16:56:17] <JT-Shop> wow 500 spammers a day register
[16:56:17] <andypugh> It can be done, with fiddling, with the current release.
[16:56:57] <r00t4rd3d> jt thats amazing for how small the linuxcnc forums are.
[16:57:20] <PCW> Yeah tryin to help Matt Shaver simplify motor tuning
[16:57:26] <andypugh> JT-Shop: I have found that if you view 500, select-all at the top and unselect the ones that look like humans then delete the rest, it isn't that painful. And I deleted 370 this morning..
[16:57:28] <JT-Shop> yea, they like out of date joomla
[16:57:33] <r00t4rd3d> but if you have a wide open door with garbage forum software, i guess you ask for that.
[16:57:45] <JT-Shop> holy crap then it is >800 per day
[16:58:27] <andypugh> Two new folks, both gmailers though.
[16:59:10] <JT-Shop> crumb
[17:09:11] <andypugh> A crumb of consolation, you mean?
[17:32:52] <BHSPiMonkey> wooo, just ordered some endmills
[17:33:04] <BHSPiMonkey> my theoretical collection of parts is growing
[17:33:43] <pfred1> I buy endmills at flea markets
[17:33:53] <pfred1> buck a pop
[17:34:08] <BHSPiMonkey> but then I'd have to spend time and gas locating / driving to one
[17:34:18] <pfred1> well I'm going anyways
[17:34:20] <BHSPiMonkey> under the assumption that they would even have them
[17:34:36] <pfred1> yeah I haven't seen any in a while i could kick myself I didn't buy the last guy out
[17:35:21] <BHSPiMonkey> what in particular about a flea market makes it better poised than ebay for offering lower prices, anyway?
[17:35:46] <pfred1> last time I went all I got were escutcheon pins
[17:35:51] <BHSPiMonkey> is someone at your flea market just buying them in surplus overseas?
[17:36:00] <pfred1> but I did get those 5 boxes for a dollar
[17:36:30] <pfred1> nah i get domestic endmills like machine shop quality
[17:36:44] <pfred1> ones that'd normally cost $20 and up
[17:37:25] <pfred1> I don't ask people how they came across what they have
[17:38:15] <pfred1> one time I was at an estate sale and the whole basement of the house i was in was jamb packed with machine shop stuff
[17:38:31] <pfred1> but I was in the process of moving and i just couldn't take it on then
[17:38:38] <BHSPiMonkey> this is what I grabbed
http://www.ebay.com/itm/MICRO-MACHINING-KIT-10-NEW-CARBIDE-ENDMILLS-METRIC-/380469360194?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5895bdb642
[17:38:50] <BHSPiMonkey> based on a forum recommendation since I don't know what I'm doing
[17:38:51] <pfred1> but every handful os stuff I brought up to the girl that was there she would say to me give me $3
[17:39:04] <BHSPiMonkey> heh, nice
[17:39:24] <BHSPiMonkey> although also a bit of a downer
[17:39:39] <pfred1> I was getting stuff like mitutoyo depth gauges and parallels
[17:40:03] <pfred1> I could have went back the next day and bought the lot for peanuts
[17:40:17] <pfred1> but i couldn't move it all
[17:40:38] <BHSPiMonkey> some day it'll be our estate sales, and our daughters/etc. will be the ones selling our gadgets and tools by the handful
[17:40:40] <pfred1> I mean a lifetime of collecting
[17:40:44] <BHSPiMonkey> for 3 bucks
[17:41:22] <pfred1> well I'm trying to buy it all for $3 so it'll be even in the end
[17:42:19] <pfred1> I get stuff on the used market I'd never buy retail
[17:42:39] <pfred1> like once i got this swiss ultra high speed pneumatic die grinder for $10
[17:42:46] <pfred1> thing probably cost $400 new
[17:43:25] <pfred1> only reason I bought it was because I saw it and the price was right
[17:44:18] <pfred1> but you have to be patient to buy tools secondhand
[17:44:46] <pfred1> lately I've been getting Disston D8 handsaws for $3 a piece
[17:44:58] <pfred1> they sell for $130 on Ebay
[17:50:40] <andypugh> I have two Wohlhaupter boring heads, I paid less than £120 for each. That is quite a lot of money, but when they are £4000 new....
[17:51:14] <pfred1> andypugh I want to take a trip to the rust belt in this country someday
[17:51:24] <pfred1> there machinery goes begging!
[17:51:56] <pfred1> a buddy of mine got a CNC-1 for the price of taking it away
[17:52:41] <pfred1> well he was a buddy of mine back then I don't know what ever happened to him or that machine
[18:06:10] <r00t4rd3d> http://i.imgur.com/Qm8rz.jpg
[18:10:22] <r00t4rd3d> 50
[18:11:16] <pfred1> 42
[18:11:35] <r00t4rd3d> yeah it cost me 6 bucks for the piece of oak
[18:12:03] <pfred1> I grow some amazing oak
[18:12:07] <r00t4rd3d> and it probably got 2 bucks worth of stain
[18:12:12] <pfred1> stuff is heavy like iron
[18:12:33] <pfred1> I cut one tree down and I couldn't even pick up the stump
[18:12:46] <r00t4rd3d> send me some burl
[18:13:06] <pfred1> turns out the oak around here is renowned
[18:13:38] <pfred1> something about the climate I don't know
[18:13:41] <r00t4rd3d> where you live?
[18:13:44] <pfred1> Delaware
[18:13:59] <r00t4rd3d> you have a port. sawmill ?
[18:14:04] <pfred1> cabinet makers don't want the stuff because it is too hard t owork
[18:15:46] <pfred1> I don't know if the picture really does it justice or not
http://i.imgur.com/QPZtB.jpg
[18:15:57] <pfred1> but that is some mighty close grained oak
[18:26:17] <andypugh> Yes, that looks like nice stuff.
[18:26:28] <andypugh> I like working oak, especially when it's green.
[18:27:19] <andypugh> I need to take a phot of the settle I made.
[18:28:34] <pfred1> andypugh I have nails I put into it and I drilled the starter holes not much smaller it was still tough to drive them
[18:28:50] <pfred1> well they're more spikes
[18:28:56] <andypugh> Nails? Ewww!
[18:29:00] <pfred1> 3/8s shanks as i can recall
[18:29:31] <andypugh> A lot of the stuff I built with oak was 1" diameter oak pegs.
[18:29:48] <andypugh> Probably spent 10x as long shaving the pegs as drilling the holes.
[18:29:57] <pfred1> pegs would have been a good way to go too but I didn't want the piece coming apart
[18:30:21] <pfred1> and I wanted the nails as details
[18:30:42] <pfred1> there are like foot long nails with large heads
[18:31:54] <andypugh> We wanted something that would last. Nails supposedly corrode in oak. (when I say "last" I mean 500 years)
[18:32:15] <pfred1> I'm not going to be around in 500 years
[18:32:33] <pfred1> he spikes i drove in will last the rest of my lifetime though
[18:32:43] <andypugh> Nor me, but I hope the house will be. It's managed the first 500.
[18:33:01] <pfred1> I've no hopes beyond my own life
[18:33:17] <pfred1> not too concerned about it really
[18:33:55] <pfred1> right now I'm hoping I'll be able to live a comfortable life
[18:52:35] <Tom_itx> what is the hardest tight grain wood?
[18:52:50] <Tom_itx> just happened to be looking for some hardwood myself
[18:53:06] <andypugh> Ironwood has the reputation
[18:53:07] <Tom_itx> i came up with hard maple, beech and dogwood
[18:53:16] <Tom_itx> that are obtainable in the US
[18:53:30] <JT-Shop> ironwood is the first thing that came to my mind too
[18:53:41] <Tom_itx> i need to make a 1.5" dowel with 3 tpi threads on it
[18:53:57] <Tom_itx> i found a piece of hard maple i'm gonna try
[18:54:10] <Tom_itx> oak sure as hell doesn't work
[18:54:28] <andypugh> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janka_hardness_test suggest Lignum Vitae
[18:55:08] <skunkworks__> hickey? white oak?
[18:55:23] <Tom_itx> i also wondered about hedgewood
[18:56:43] <JT-Shop> what failed with oak?
[18:56:49] <andypugh> They used Lignum Vitae for the prop shaft bearings of the first nuclear sub. Marvellous.
[18:56:57] <Tom_itx> cutting the threads just shattered the wood
[18:57:11] <skunkworks__> what kind of cutter?
[18:57:16] <JT-Shop> you using a razor sharp cutter?
[18:57:21] <Tom_itx> yes
[18:57:24] <skunkworks__> You would want something with quite a sharp curved edge..
[18:57:47] <Tom_itx> yeah
[18:59:21] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/cnc/Lathe/thread.jpg
[18:59:27] <Tom_itx> that's what i'm tryin to fix
[19:00:03] <Tom_itx> not that the scar will keep it from working but whoever glued it in glued it wrong
[19:00:15] <Tom_itx> so that when it's in place it is in the wrong position
[19:01:31] <andypugh> Ideally you would cut the thread with live tooling.
[19:01:40] <Tom_itx> yeah i know
[19:01:49] <Tom_itx> it's not ideal though
[19:02:38] <Tom_itx> i may end up replacing it with aluminum or steel as well
[19:02:50] <andypugh> I don't know how you would grind a tool for the job, but I suspect with a _very_ positive rake, and using a compound angle so that it only cuts on the one edge. (because you can't grind edges that meet both with enough rake)
[19:02:53] <JT-Shop> might take a multi-pass approach and take tiny cuts and stagger the Z start a bit for the first part of the thread
[19:03:19] <Tom_itx> it's a manual lathe
[19:03:29] <andypugh> I did that (cradek's idea) for the 3mm pitch on my lathe chuck backplate.
[19:03:52] <andypugh> Buid a big thread out of the little triangles of little threads.
[19:04:14] <JT-Shop> can you move the compound back and forth for each pass so you don't put much side load on the thread peak
[19:04:31] <Tom_itx> yeah
[19:04:45] <Tom_itx> i thought about cutting the 2 sides and working my way to the center of it
[19:06:26] <Tom_itx> i think if i can knife edge both edges of the vee it will cut better but grinding that won't be that easy
[19:07:46] <JT-Shop> http://www.garrettwade.com/wood-threader-and-tap-die-set/p/98N11.01/
[19:08:24] <skunkworks__> those are really slick...
[19:12:05] <JT-Shop> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlQEgcGiN2Q
[19:12:36] <JT-Shop> need some lube
[19:14:20] <skunkworks__> dad has a set of them.. (or similar) they really are neat. Thread a dowel in 2.2
[19:16:30] <andypugh> Cool! Indexable wood chisels :-)
http://www.garrettwade.com/innovator-chisels-with-interchangeable-cutters/p/20S02.11/
[19:18:32] <pfred1> I'm in pretty good shape in the chisel department I still want about a 3 foot slick though
[19:19:04] <andypugh> Do you have a shoulder plane? They are extremely useful, once you have one.
[19:19:05] <pfred1> I have a few foot long ones i don't have a really big oar sized one yet
[19:19:12] <pfred1> a few
[19:19:35] <pfred1> I'm fairly set in the plane department too I could use a bullnosed
[19:20:08] <pfred1> I tried to take a picture of all of my planes once but I forgot to empty two drawers
[19:20:40] <pfred1> http://i.imgur.com/shZvn.jpg
[19:20:59] <pfred1> so that isn't quite all of them
[19:21:13] <andypugh> I don't see a shouldr plane there...
[19:21:25] <pfred1> the black ones on the ends
[19:22:43] <andypugh> I know them as rebate planes.
[19:23:10] <andypugh> http://www.inthewoodshop.com/furniture/AHandcutMorticeandTenonPrimer-BlindMortice_html_5942afc5.jpg
[19:23:16] <pfred1> well there is a carrige plane in the second row
[19:23:44] <pfred1> off on the right hand side
[19:24:11] <andypugh> I see it now. Again, not what I was meaning
[19:25:47] <pfred1> andypugh yes the planes i have do what is being done in that picture they are just different styles
[19:26:18] <pfred1> they cut up to the edge
[19:28:14] <pfred1> oh and a word to the wise never cut square dog holes into a bench
[19:28:25] <pfred1> round is superior in so many ways
[19:38:23] <Valen> why put hss cutters in it?
[19:38:28] <Valen> put carbide in
[19:38:35] <Valen> last heaps longer
[19:39:47] <skunkworks__> JT-Shop:
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/56151-cnc-computer-problem
[19:43:32] <andypugh> The HSS ones are re-sharpenable.
[19:43:43] <andypugh> (By woodworkers)
[19:43:46] <Valen> you can grind carbide
[19:43:54] <Valen> just takes longer ;->
[19:49:08] <skunkworks__> depends on the wheel.. Even the cheap diamond coated dremel style bits work for 'adjusting carbide'
[19:50:20] <andypugh> Why carbide, why not diamond chisels?
[19:51:45] <toastydeath> diamond is brittle
[19:51:47] <PCW> I think carbide it not sharp enough for good wood work
[19:52:06] <jthornton> the polished ones for aluminum work
[19:52:14] <PCW> ok for sandpaper type woodwork
[19:52:18] <toastydeath> carbide sharpening isn't hard but most people don't realize it has to be done differently than hss
[19:53:09] <pfred1> carbide never gets as sharp as HSS does
[19:53:14] <PCW> ok for scrapers, not for cutters
[19:53:32] <PCW> yep just too dull
[19:53:35] <pfred1> carbide simply cannot take the same edge
[19:53:54] <pfred1> holds what it takes longer but simply does not hone as fine
[19:54:01] <toastydeath> you don't hone carbide sharp
[19:54:02] <toastydeath> you lap it sharp
[19:54:11] <PCW> still no good
[19:54:18] <pfred1> I don't care what you do with carbide it cannot get as sharp as HSS can
[19:54:21] <toastydeath> and it does take just as good of an edge as hss, and i've seen he micrography of it
[19:54:25] <toastydeath> *the
[19:54:41] <PCW> not for cutting wood
[19:54:50] <pfred1> and when you are working wood you don't usually need carbide hard
[19:54:52] <toastydeath> just because someone cannot sharpen it properly doesn't mean the material isn't capable of it
[19:55:44] <pfred1> there are different grades of carbide to be sure but I've never heard of any that compares to HSS for sharpness
[19:55:50] <PCW> nothing to do with sharpening carbide will not hold and edge when acute enough for wood cutting
[19:56:12] <toastydeath> you seem to be confusing a whole shitload of terms
[19:56:32] <toastydeath> edge sharpness is a radius between the two intersecting planes that form the edge
[19:56:41] <PCW> you seem to know nothing about wood working
[19:56:44] <toastydeath> edge sharpness cannot be acute
[19:56:53] <toastydeath> i'm not saying anything about woodworking
[19:57:00] <pfred1> well we are
[19:57:03] <toastydeath> i'm merely correcting wrong information about edge sharpness
[19:57:26] <toastydeath> whether or not it's suitable for any given task for any percieved reason (or lack of skill, as i strongly suspect in this case) is irrelevant to what words actually mean
[19:58:07] <pfred1> carbide is used in woodworking with power tools because carbide can maintain its edge longer than HSS can
[19:58:39] <pfred1> but no one wants carbide hand tools
[19:58:47] * jthornton got a Gtk textview to work in python
[19:59:41] <toastydeath> carbides that can take a smaller edge radius are fragile, so it makes sense to not use them in a hand tool.
[20:00:47] <pfred1> steel has carbide in it
[20:01:02] <toastydeath> yes it does.
[20:01:34] <andypugh> Not always :-)
[20:01:43] <pfred1> andypugh typically
[20:01:59] <pfred1> I suppose i should have said steel commonly has carbide in it
[20:02:00] <toastydeath> and the sharpest possible known materials, ceramics, are horrible for almost all cutting tasks, but they're still the sharpest
[20:02:40] <andypugh> I was being really pedantic, I admit. Most steels containno carbide above 800C :-)
[20:03:06] <pfred1> toastydeath I guess cave men had an edge over us
[20:03:16] <toastydeath> badum psh terrible pun
[20:03:18] <andypugh> toastydeath:
http://www.xkcd.com/1114/
[20:03:43] <pfred1> toastydeath I don't mean to be obsidian
[20:04:12] <toastydeath> not any ceramic, just like steels and carbide there are some ceramics whose grain structure allows for a smaller edge radius
[20:04:39] <toastydeath> and just like steels and carbides there are some that are horrid at holding any sort of edge
[20:04:39] <pfred1> well i like my steel
[20:05:20] <jdh> all the steels in all my knives are terrible at holding an edge.
[20:05:30] <jdh> or, I'm terrible at putting an edge on them.
[20:05:35] <pfred1> I like solingen steel
[20:05:47] <pfred1> just something about the stuff
[20:06:00] <pfred1> man I can give solingen steel a wicked edge
[20:07:00] <pfred1> jdh sometimes you can bend a feather edge over and that dulls a blade do you strop your blades after yo uwharpen them?
[20:07:12] <pfred1> jdh sometimes you can bend a feather edge over and that dulls a blade do you strop your blades after you sharpen them?
[20:07:21] <jdh> no.
[20:07:36] <pfred1> I've found after a good stropping that and edge can stay sharper for much longer
[20:07:47] <pfred1> you should try it
[20:07:52] <jdh> I'm not sure 'sharpen' is that accurate for what I do.
[20:07:57] <pfred1> I rouge charge my leather
[20:08:23] <toastydeath> +1
[20:08:37] <pfred1> my system today I rough with diamond hones then move to medium then hard arkansas stones then strop
[20:08:57] <pfred1> I have jap water stones too but I only use those for my thickness planer blades
[20:09:35] <pfred1> sometimes I rebevel stuff too
[20:10:10] <pfred1> beveling can make a big difference with some tools
[20:10:46] <pfred1> like i prefer plane blades beveled it seems to cut down on friction
[21:05:03] <Valen> we use carbide end mills on our timber it seems to work well ;->
[21:05:18] <Valen> bog standard metal cutting ones lol
[21:05:36] <r00t4rd3d> fred where you been anyway?
[21:08:07] <r00t4rd3d> Gabe_W
[21:08:22] <r00t4rd3d> Gabe_W
[21:08:23] <r00t4rd3d> Gabe_W
[21:08:23] <r00t4rd3d> Gabe_W
[21:12:04] <ReadError> http://vimeo.com/50797383
[21:12:12] <ReadError> vidjah i made today
[21:16:18] <r00t4rd3d> cookie monster porn?
[21:17:00] <ReadError> lol
[21:17:08] <r00t4rd3d> the music dude.....
[21:17:17] <ReadError> lol
[21:17:24] <ReadError> thats some crptex
[21:17:30] <ReadError> cryptex
[21:17:31] <ReadError> or w/e
[21:17:37] <r00t4rd3d> craptex
[21:17:45] <r00t4rd3d> http://i.imgur.com/Wq4kC.jpg
[21:19:01] <ReadError> lolwut
[21:20:57] <r00t4rd3d> secret apple message
[21:25:36] <r00t4rd3d> what i cut today:
http://i.imgur.com/AwsUz.jpg
[21:26:19] <ReadError> oooo
[21:26:24] <ReadError> fancy
[21:27:08] <r00t4rd3d> does it remind you of your gf?
[21:27:16] <ReadError> lol
[21:27:19] <r00t4rd3d> :D
[21:27:43] <r00t4rd3d> you got that too guick
[21:27:47] <r00t4rd3d> erre quick
[21:27:50] <ReadError> nah it makes me wish i had a sweet moose beard
[21:28:10] <Jymmm> http://i42.tinypic.com/kdr9g4.jpg
[21:28:25] <r00t4rd3d> pocket?
[22:09:20] <toastydeath> So, question that's actually on topic
[22:09:30] <toastydeath> servos; how good are they at holding large forces static?
[22:11:01] <toastydeath> say I want to be able to appy a half ton force
[22:11:08] <toastydeath> how big of a servo is that?
[22:20:51] <Valen> depends on what your doing
[22:21:06] <Valen> servo is a control scheme not any paticular implementation
[22:21:28] <Valen> the turrets and guns on WW2 battleships were moved by hydraulic servos
[22:22:02] <toastydeath> true
[22:22:19] <toastydeath> so here's the application; what I want to do is look at control methods for changing the load on a barbell
[22:22:25] <toastydeath> based on position
[22:22:42] <toastydeath> and my first thought was maybe an electronic servomotor
[22:22:56] <Valen> you mean like a human weighlifter?
[22:23:01] <toastydeath> no, the opposite
[22:23:09] <toastydeath> to pull against a human weightlifter
[22:23:17] <Valen> yeah i mean thats the application
[22:23:20] <toastydeath> yes
[22:24:00] <Valen> from the POV of a gym junkie thats going to be weird
[22:24:10] <toastydeath> not for powerlifters
[22:24:17] <toastydeath> since bands and chains do that the manual way
[22:24:27] <Valen> i spose,
[22:24:32] <toastydeath> for most people, yeah, it doesn't matter
[22:24:40] <toastydeath> for powerlifters, it matters a lot
[22:24:41] <Valen> so cords coming out of the floor basically?
[22:24:45] <toastydeath> yes
[22:24:54] <toastydeath> load the barbell up with weight, and have the cords on the innermost part of the sleeve
[22:25:01] <toastydeath> where a chain or band would go
[22:25:27] <Valen> are you trying to apply the load (replace the weights) or act as a safety or what?
[22:25:44] <toastydeath> the idea is to add (and ideally be able to remove) load from the bar dynamically
[22:26:00] <toastydeath> so that as you go down into the range of motion, the load lessens
[22:26:09] <toastydeath> and as you press/stand, the load increases again
[22:27:28] <toastydeath> an extra benefit is that the system then becomes a bar dynamometer
[22:27:35] <toastydeath> which is usually a seperate piece of equipment
[22:28:16] <Valen> the biggest issue you will have is the speed
[22:28:22] <toastydeath> yeah
[22:29:23] <toastydeath> I was thinking maybe use dumb hydraulic motors
[22:29:40] <toastydeath> and use computer control over the pressure being fed into the motor
[22:29:57] <toastydeath> and then if I needed more speed I could use a bigger motor and a wider drum for the cable
[22:29:58] <Valen> not a bad plan
[22:30:08] <toastydeath> then, if i want to do it both directions
[22:30:08] <Valen> I'd dump the motors and use a cylinder
[22:30:17] <Valen> then the pressure you read = the force directly
[22:30:18] <toastydeath> I'm not sure how to get the cylinder to float naturally
[22:30:35] <Valen> tension sensors on the cable
[22:30:41] <toastydeath> oh, i see what you mean
[22:30:47] <toastydeath> have the cylinder entirely under the floor
[22:31:09] <Valen> or wherever
[22:31:22] <Valen> I'd put it off to the side above the floor, and have a mess of pullys and ropes ;->
[22:31:29] <toastydeath> that could work too
[22:31:31] <Valen> so when something shits itself you can fix it
[22:32:22] <toastydeath> i figure this would do three things; you could do dynamic effort on it easily, the future method easily, and add weight incrementally as long as the major mass was on the bar
[22:32:32] <toastydeath> you could probably add 20-40 lbs without touching the bar
[22:32:43] <toastydeath> and not have it feel drastically different
[22:33:04] <toastydeath> it could also auto-spot if i made the cable looped
[22:33:10] <toastydeath> so that the motor drove it both directions
[22:33:25] <toastydeath> and it mounted to a special 5 lb plate with attachments on the top and bottom
[22:33:53] <Valen> I'd suggest putting a foam sensor type thing on the bar proper, outside the hand grip areas, if you get contact there, then lock the position
[22:33:59] <toastydeath> then things like power training would be safer as you could use the motors like load brakes
[22:34:04] <toastydeath> on fancy squat racks
[22:34:19] <toastydeath> ?
[22:34:26] <toastydeath> oh, that could work
[22:34:32] <Valen> kind of stuff they use to stop automatic doors crushing people
[22:34:41] <toastydeath> i would also set max bar speeds and lowest points
[22:34:41] <Valen> so if you drop it and it hits you it stops
[22:34:45] <toastydeath> to auto raise it
[22:36:43] <toastydeath> although i guess a dead stop is much safer
[22:36:45] <toastydeath> than raising theb ar
[22:36:46] <toastydeath> *bar
[22:37:26] <Valen> if you "weigh" the bar you could do a servo assist mode
[22:37:31] <toastydeath> yeah
[22:37:39] <toastydeath> bar weight will be important for the dynamometer
[22:37:45] <toastydeath> usually it's just entered manually
[22:38:00] <toastydeath> also servo assist is called "future method"
[22:38:12] <Valen> if you have a tension sensor in the cable taking a measurement isn't hard
[22:38:12] <toastydeath> stringing up bands to the top of the rack rather than to the bottom
[22:38:15] <toastydeath> so that it takes weight off
[22:38:53] <toastydeath> it's used for equipped lifting to train lockout without actually putting a squat suit or bench shirt on
[22:39:31] <toastydeath> also yeah, i'm thinking everything will be done from cable tensions + position
[22:40:04] <toastydeath> i'll have a long time to think about this because i won't be able to pursue it for 2-3 years
[22:40:10] <ReadError> or just be a big dog
[22:40:13] <ReadError> and lift like a big dog
[22:40:35] <toastydeath> you're saying the world record lifters are small dogs for using negative bands?
[22:41:18] <ReadError> toastydeath, i used to powerlift
[22:41:21] <ReadError> im j/k'ing
[22:41:26] <toastydeath> lulz
[22:41:41] <toastydeath> why'd you stop
[22:41:50] <ReadError> decided to cut down
[22:42:00] <ReadError> too much work eating all the time
[22:42:18] <toastydeath> eat all the calories
[22:42:40] <ReadError> i actually just finished
[22:42:44] <Valen> I'm just in training for seriously lifting
[22:42:44] <ReadError> 275 incline
[22:42:48] <Valen> yeah thats it
[22:42:48] <ReadError> 315 flat
[22:42:55] <toastydeath> nice
[22:42:59] <Valen> i'm not just fat ;->
[22:43:16] <toastydeath> i am new and on my way in the other direction
[22:43:39] <toastydeath> I am trying to break 400x5 in dead/squat by the end of the year, and trying to get as close to 300x5 for flat
[22:43:40] <ReadError> my maxes where 505 on deadlift and squat
[22:43:44] <ReadError> 405 bench
[22:43:53] <ReadError> rackpull from below knee cap 785
[22:43:53] <toastydeath> after i hit those i'm going to reassess my maxes
[22:43:58] <toastydeath> nice
[22:44:33] <toastydeath> meets seem to be fairly infrequent around here
[22:44:37] <toastydeath> near wash, dc
[22:44:37] <ReadError> but i dropped down alot on that
[22:44:43] <ReadError> mostly do that stuff
[22:44:46] <ReadError> weighted chins
[22:44:52] <ReadError> curls for the gurls, etc
[22:45:37] <toastydeath> i am trying to stay away from curls on principle but i suspect i will resort to them at some point from sheer vanity
[22:46:15] <toastydeath> what's weird is that there are some powerlifting meets that have curls as a contested lift?
[22:46:35] <ReadError> yea
[22:46:39] <ReadError> they are like cheat curls
[22:47:05] <toastydeath> i need to find a video online
[22:47:06] * Valen is actually doing bodybuilding style weights to burn some weight off, never been too successful in building muscle size even when i did heavy weights
[22:47:10] <ReadError> toastydeath, power cleans are good too
[22:47:30] <toastydeath> yeah, I want to really go for both types of lifting in the beginning and see which suits me better
[22:47:38] <toastydeath> i am still too new to be like "and now we focus entirely on powerlifting"
[22:48:10] <toastydeath> current gym doesn't have the space to safely do power cleans most of the time
[22:48:18] <toastydeath> it just moved though, so we'll see
