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[00:23:50] <jymmm> Long, but very interesting...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86XmQra5WMU&NR=1&feature=endscreen
[02:05:55] <DJ9DJ> moin
[04:31:35] <elmo40> http://www.learnsmartsystems.com/products/documents/promo_documents/012695_quick-dirty-subnetting.pdf
[08:22:55] <Loetmichel> hrhr, result of half a day rage of destruction: anybode needs some steppers, fans or servos? ->
http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=13248
[08:39:45] <ScribbleJ> Nice work, Loet.
[08:40:15] <archivist> still some scrapping to be done!
[08:48:06] <Loetmichel> archivist: no, 'nuff done
[08:48:39] <Loetmichel> the screpheap guy said:"i take them away if the outer plastic hull is removed"
[08:48:42] <Loetmichel> so did we
[08:48:52] <Loetmichel> ... and some cnice parts ;-)
[08:49:13] <archivist> he will cry when he finds no motors :)
[08:49:23] <Loetmichel> i i had to scrap them as a company i had to pay over 2000 eur a ton
[08:49:43] <archivist> pcb's can make good money from gold scrap merchants
[08:49:44] <Loetmichel> so this is the cheaper solution
[08:49:59] <Loetmichel> right, but not in the prionter
[08:50:20] <Loetmichel> and i sitll have to get rid of about 2 cbm plastic parts now ;-)
[08:52:15] <archivist> the market for plastic is improving if separated and bagged by the ton:)
[09:34:54] <ScribbleJ> OMG so many all the questions.
[09:35:22] <ScribbleJ> I guess andypugh knew I was going to end up in over my head.
[09:35:48] <ScribbleJ> IchGuckLive, thank you for the fanuc11m tip on Powermill! I managed to get gcode that LinuxCNC interpreted correctly, I think.
[09:35:57] <IchGuckLive> Hi Question im in a git compiled linuxcnc on run in place where do i need to put (.axisrc)
[09:36:15] <IchGuckLive> ScribbleJ: NP
[09:41:05] <jdhNC> Ich: no real clue, but I'd suggest ~
[09:42:15] <IchGuckLive> for a in place running system this may harm the real install from synaptic
[09:43:15] <ScribbleJ> I didn't think the Ubuntu packaging guidlines allowed you to install things in ~
[09:43:45] <IchGuckLive> ScribbleJ: i can
[09:43:48] <ScribbleJ> I mean - if you have a package install, I don't think it should interfere with things in ~
[09:44:30] <IchGuckLive> jdhNC: ithink i modify Axis on root_window.bind(
[10:01:47] <joe9> once in a while, I get the "realtime latency" message from linuxcnc. Is that normal? I do not anything getting skipped
[10:09:48] <jthornton> that means you have a problem with latency and you only get warned once per session
[10:12:18] <ScribbleJ> If you havea problem with latency are steps delayed, or are they sometimes skipped?
[10:13:09] <ScribbleJ> I got about halfway through my first gcode and it was going along fine but then the router started doing all the work 5mm above the workpeice while lcnc told me it was 3mm inside.
[10:13:18] <ScribbleJ> I figure my Zskipped hard for some reason.
[10:15:41] <jthornton> that sounds like sticky or accel too high or volts too low or any of the mechanical reasons that steppers might skip a step
[10:16:00] <ScribbleJ> yeah, that's what I figure.
[10:16:40] <ScribbleJ> I'm glad it skipped up and not down anyhow.
[10:28:32] <JT-Shop> yea, even a blind mouse gets lucky from time to time and gets some cheese
[10:29:23] <skunkworks> even a broken clock is right twice a day
[10:29:26] <Tom_itx> JT-Shop you gonna try that transformer on your 3 phase inverter?
[10:30:09] <JT-Shop> if I can find one... got some more info today on transformers that Siemes specs out 3% impedence for the isolation transformer
[10:30:18] <JT-Shop> Siemens
[10:30:46] <JT-Shop> good info to know and I understand why now after all these speriments
[10:30:52] <Tom_itx> i hope that works, we didn't have such luck with that little Fadal
[10:31:10] <Tom_itx> we just swapped out it's main transformer for a 220 single phase one
[10:31:38] <JT-Shop> I'm not getting any luck either, I'm having to make my own luck
[10:31:43] <Tom_itx> afterward he built another shop and had 3 phase brought in
[10:32:09] <Tom_itx> if i didn't have bad luck i would have none
[10:32:47] <JT-Shop> lol
[10:33:29] <Tom_itx> need to test my switches today. got that all rewired last night
[10:33:36] <JT-Shop> cool
[10:33:43] <Tom_itx> added a bunch more grounds to stuff
[10:33:59] <Tom_itx> each stepper frame and shielded all the switch wires
[10:34:35] <skunkworks> 3 phase is a block away from the garage...
[10:34:36] <Tom_itx> dunno if that will fix it but it can't hurt
[10:34:53] <skunkworks> and probably $10k
[10:35:11] <Tom_itx> yeah
[10:35:26] <Tom_itx> he had to show that he would use alot of power before they would bring it in
[10:35:37] <Tom_itx> but i don't think they charged him
[10:35:42] <JT-Shop> yea, they wanted something like that to drop 3 phase from the pole next to the other shop
[10:36:06] <JT-Shop> and pay a min bill that was high as a cat's back
[10:36:11] <skunkworks> heh - we where lucky at dads shop - they brought 3 phase in for not too much $ (but that was 20 years ago or so)
[10:36:15] <Tom_itx> and then with his 3rd new shop it was a given that it would be wired 3 phase
[10:36:36] <Tom_itx> that's the one you've seen pics of
[10:36:58] <Tom_itx> he's since retired though so i don't get out there much anymore
[10:38:23] <Tom_itx> JT-Shop yeah that may have been the guaranteed power useage they were looking for
[10:38:38] <JT-Shop> yep
[10:41:53] <Tom_itx> his dad used to restore stearmans next door at his rural airport
[10:42:30] <JT-Shop> cool
[10:42:37] <Tom_itx> with one of the largest inventories of parts for them in the US i think
[10:42:45] <Tom_itx> you'd never now it though
[10:42:53] <Tom_itx> know*
[10:42:58] <JT-Shop> I restored a couple of Cessna's in a previous life time
[10:43:28] * JT-Shop wanders off to start up the power station and make a few parts
[10:43:34] <Tom_itx> he'd have some gal come in and hand stitch the wing cloth before they doped it
[11:14:29] <JT-Shop> "John, that makes sense that if you add more stabilizing loads on ur 3ph - by running another motor off the rpc - it makes the 3 ph even 'stiffer' so less 'spongy' so ur siemens 611 sees less noise floating around confusing itself....."
[11:22:09] <Loetmichel> re @ home
[11:25:53] <Loetmichel> soo, now i have 18 steppers 5,3 Ohm, 18 steppers 6,8Ohm, both 7,5°, and 18 24V 2A 200lpr dc servos in my car. THAT was a nice destruction day today ;-)
[11:48:16] <ReadError_> Loetmichel
[11:48:21] <ReadError_> you see my quad frame?
[11:48:47] <Loetmichel> no?
[11:49:05] <ReadError_> http://p.twimg.com/AuRN9adCMAA-tGw.jpg:large ;o
[11:49:26] <Loetmichel> hrhr, nice and simple
[11:49:36] <Loetmichel> 15mm swuare tube?
[11:49:43] <Loetmichel> square
[11:50:08] <ReadError_> 3/4"
[11:50:12] <ReadError_> not sure what that is in MM
[11:57:02] <jdhNC> units(1)
[11:59:20] <Loetmichel> ReadError_: 1"= 25,4mm
[11:59:40] <Loetmichel> so nearly 20 mm
[11:59:50] <Loetmichel> little fat that baby ;-)
[11:59:58] <Connor> what's with ,'s vs .'s ?
[12:00:08] <Loetmichel> sorry, i'm german
[12:00:14] <ReadError_> Loetmichel: I got some huge motors on it
[12:00:17] <Loetmichel> german decimal is ,
[12:00:21] <jdhNC> they do weird stuff like that, and they use those weird units
[12:00:33] <ReadError_> http://www.bphobbies.com/view.asp?id=V450327&pid=B1898547
[12:00:39] <ReadError_> im running 4s
[12:00:46] <ReadError_> so im expecting 60oz of trust each
[12:01:04] <Loetmichel> hmmm, nice
[12:01:23] <Loetmichel> <-asks google what 60oz in N is ;-)
[12:01:30] <Connor> I know in electronics. for Ohms, EU uses N.. 3N3
[12:02:01] <Loetmichel> ah, nearly 20N
[12:02:14] <Loetmichel> NEWTON!
[12:02:29] <Loetmichel> a bit on the trolling side today, Connor?
[12:02:51] <Connor> Loetmichel: No. :) Just wondering about ,'s vs .'s
[12:03:08] <Connor> If your not use to seeing it.. it's a bit odd.
[12:03:15] <Connor> no biggie.
[12:03:34] <Connor> I like the N for . in the electronics stuff.. .'s are so hard to see sometimes.
[12:07:50] <andypugh> Ah, psha!
[12:08:19] <andypugh> Is the _button in line 184 of fileselect.py (or whatever the name is) correct?
[12:08:33] <andypugh> It seems to more nearly work without it.
[12:09:35] <andypugh> The line number is from memory too. So might be wrong.
[12:14:21] <Loetmichel> Connor: the electronics letter instad of decimal ist not always N
[12:14:40] <Loetmichel> its the denominator for the multiplyer
[12:14:45] <Loetmichel> -y+ie
[12:15:12] <Loetmichel> its just shorter to write 1k5 than 1.5 kOhm
[12:18:29] <Gigs-> Do you all think a rotary table is worth getting on a CNC?
[12:18:43] <Gigs-> I can't think of much you could do with it that you couldn't just do with regular CNC operations
[12:19:01] <jdhNC> cut a hex on a shaft?
[12:19:13] <jdhNC> gear hobbing?
[12:19:26] <jdhNC> slot slitting?
[12:19:27] <Gigs-> couldn't you just do that with x/y?
[12:20:06] <Tom_itx> there are places the rotary makes jobs easier
[12:20:15] <Gigs-> here's the mill I'm looking at Tom_itx
[12:20:16] <Gigs-> http://www.tormach.com/product_pcnc_770_main
[12:20:18] <Tom_itx> there are usually more than one way to skin a cat
[12:20:28] <Gigs-> though I'm also looking at their 1100
[12:20:43] <jdhNC> I like to look at them also.
[12:20:49] <Gigs-> hehe
[12:20:59] <Gigs-> It will be mine!
[12:21:10] <Tom_itx> get a manual and add the electronics
[12:21:10] <Gigs-> I just need to find some suckers... I mean investors
[12:21:16] <Tom_itx> spend the money you save on tooling
[12:21:23] <Gigs-> my dad has a manual already
[12:21:29] <Tom_itx> convert it
[12:21:32] <Gigs-> ex-cell-o
[12:21:34] <jdhNC> a rotary axis sitting on the table is less interesting than one mounted 90 degrees to the table (IMO)
[12:21:43] <Tom_itx> agreed
[12:21:45] <Gigs-> the tormach rotary table goes both ways jdh
[12:22:23] <Gigs-> I don't know if my dad would appreciate me hanging a bunch of shit off his ex-cell-o
[12:22:50] <Tom_itx> what's the travel on that one?
[12:22:59] <Tom_itx> usually Y is too small for me
[12:23:13] <Gigs-> hmmm, not sure, it's fairly small as far as mills go
[12:23:26] <Gigs-> it's industrial sized though, runs on 3 phase with a phase converter
[12:24:01] <Gigs-> if I had to guess I'd say it goes at least 12 inches Y
[12:24:13] <Gigs-> the xlo I mean
[12:24:20] <Gigs-> the tormach has full specs online you can check out
[12:24:34] <Tom_itx> i was hoping you did already :)
[12:24:55] <Gigs-> the 770 is 12x7.5x13.25 travel
[12:25:07] <Gigs-> the 1100 is 18x9.5x16.25
[12:25:09] <Tom_itx> is 13 z?
[12:25:12] <Tom_itx> probably
[12:25:19] <Gigs-> yeah I assume that's xyz
[12:25:29] <Tom_itx> that's not so bad. i'd hope you could get more for 6k
[12:25:49] <Gigs-> you can get "more" but it's shitty stuff like dremel pushers
[12:26:04] <Gigs-> this is the best all around value I've found in this price range
[12:26:06] <archivist> Gigs-, rotaries, I could not do without one, but have two to create helical gears
[12:26:57] <jdhNC> never know when you might need to fix a bread machine.
[12:27:01] <Gigs-> hehe
[12:27:17] <Gigs-> yeah I guess something like a helical gear with what amounts to undercut you'd need rotary
[12:27:41] <Tom_itx> you'd also need the software to program that unless you know the math already
[12:27:54] <archivist> jdhNC, that was when it was still 4 axis, had to pack the rotary to the helix angle
[12:28:05] <Tom_itx> Gigs-, rotary impellers
[12:28:17] <IchGuckLive> Gigs-: not on the Z Axis as it is C on the X axis to go for A axis rotory
[12:28:55] <Gigs-> that statment makes my brain explode
[12:29:06] <Gigs-> sorry I'm kind of newbie with this
[12:29:35] <Tom_itx> in the x plane the rotary axis would be A
[12:29:40] <Tom_itx> is what he's saying
[12:29:46] <Tom_itx> in z it would be C
[12:29:53] <Gigs-> so like you all were saying, with it 90 deg from the table
[12:29:59] <Gigs-> yeah I can see there would be more benefit there
[12:30:00] <Tom_itx> yes
[12:30:20] <Gigs-> do I need to buy the computer with this machine?
[12:30:27] <Gigs-> It's not clear what sort of interface it is to control it
[12:30:36] <Tom_itx> what collets does that use?
[12:30:40] <Tom_itx> that's another consideration
[12:30:44] <jdhNC> if you are spending that much, might as well get all there stuff.
[12:30:58] <Gigs-> it has R8 taper spindle with ER20 collets, from what I gather
[12:31:23] <Tom_itx> and as soon as you get it, you'll want an automatic tool changer
[12:31:27] <Gigs-> I'm pretty sure I can use the stuff my dad has, his xlo is a bridgeport knock-off and I think it's R8 taper
[12:31:28] <archivist> but what about stacked rotaries on mine A becomes C as B rotates (I keep the name as B)
[12:31:37] <andypugh> A rotary is definitely worth having. Good for splined shafts, for example
[12:32:04] <jdhNC> and, it just looks damned cool in use.
[12:32:07] <andypugh> Even just engraving on a cylindrical surface.
[12:32:20] <archivist> access to dads machine means you can build from scratch too
[12:32:40] <Gigs-> heh I have little desire to build a CNC from scratch
[12:32:57] <Tom_itx> it's fun
[12:33:06] <Tom_itx> except i'd like a more rigid machine
[12:33:13] <Gigs-> with those sorts of projects I know how it goes... you wind up spending 100 hours in addition to the same amount of money as buying it
[12:33:48] <Gigs-> You may be able to make it better in certain ways than a manufactured machine but it's not usually cheaper
[12:33:49] <archivist> Tom_itx, add rigidity where you see it bending
[12:33:53] <andypugh> R8 spindle means you can choose any size of ER collet, or hold direct in the R8. However Tormach also have a quick-change system of their own which is quite nice.
[12:34:05] <Gigs-> andypugh: thanks, that confirms what I suspected
[12:34:46] <jdhNC> only 100 hours?
[12:35:01] <Gigs-> ok add another 100 for "it should work dammit"
[12:35:07] <Gigs-> i.e. debugging heh
[12:35:30] <andypugh> I must be at a thousand hours by now.
[12:35:39] <jdhNC> then add a few more for "looking around on the floor for ballnut bearings"
[12:35:59] <IchGuckLive> Gigs-:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhICrb0Tbn4 <- thats the most usefull for it A Axis ratio
[12:36:02] <Gigs-> anyway I'm starting up a business here and I think I can justify springing for a CNC, so if I can sell the potential investor(s) on the idea then I might be set
[12:36:23] <Tom_itx> better figure in some good cad cam software too
[12:36:29] <andypugh> Gigs-: Do you have commercial premises?
[12:36:31] <Tom_itx> that's another 8 or 10k
[12:36:31] <jdhNC> and tooling
[12:36:38] <Tom_itx> that's another 20k
[12:36:58] <Gigs-> andypugh: yeah kind of... my dad's shop is set up pretty well, it used to be a cabinet shop
[12:37:04] <andypugh> A used commercial machine might be better.
[12:37:05] <Gigs-> andypugh: he has a loading dock if that's what you are getting at
[12:37:19] <jdhNC> if I die diving, please don't let my wife sell my dive gear for what I told her I paid for it.
[12:37:29] <Tom_itx> haha
[12:37:32] <Gigs-> andypugh: he doesn't have 3ph, uses a rotary phase converter on his mill and lathe
[12:37:53] <Tom_itx> that could be an issue with cnc
[12:38:02] <Gigs-> the tormach are single phase
[12:38:09] <Gigs-> another reason I'm looking at them
[12:38:13] <andypugh> Aye, ask JT-Shop
[12:38:20] <jdhNC> you can get a used bridgeport for a whole lot less than a tormach. Might not be the scale you are interested in though.
[12:38:24] <archivist> what are you intending to make
[12:38:29] <jymmm> jdhNC: 50% of what your told her you paid for it, because it's use and someone died in it?
[12:38:37] <jymmm> used
[12:39:04] <jdhNC> hopefully she will get more !
[12:39:19] <Gigs-> archivist: initially, some ABS parts for mid-sized production run but probably metal stuff later, gun parts and accessories
[12:39:36] <jdhNC> I actually have several things I got from deceased divers.
[12:40:15] <Gigs-> my dad is a gunsmith, that's primarily what he uses his manual machines for
[12:40:20] <archivist> Gigs-, then a tool changer is important
[12:40:43] <jdhNC> gigs: where?
[12:40:53] <Gigs-> jdhNC: a bridgeport CNC for less than $5000?
[12:41:14] <IchGuckLive> you can get it for halfe that
[12:41:29] <Gigs-> what's the downside?
[12:41:30] <archivist> Gigs-, get a dead one retrofit with linux cnc , then you can get cheap
[12:42:05] <jdhNC> that it's dead, and you have to retrofit it
[12:42:56] <archivist> a few in here have industrial quality that way
[12:43:02] <IchGuckLive> Gigs-:
http://www.ebay.de/itm/CNC-Wood-Engraving-Machine-Engraver-Cutter-Router-1318-50-x70-2-2KW-spindle-/120921321369?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c2778ef99
[12:43:45] <archivist> IchGuckLive, that does not match what he eventually wants to make
[12:44:04] <Gigs-> yeah that looks kind of cheesy
[12:44:33] <andypugh> Gigs-:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/160563818921 Toolchanger and about what you are looking at pricewise.
[12:44:50] <IchGuckLive> then he needs a real mashine and transform it into a CNC
[12:45:28] <andypugh> But, quite old, so the controller probably isn't great, and a LinuxCNC retrofit is likely to cost $500
[12:45:35] <andypugh> plus time.
[12:45:38] <Gigs-> and the floor will need an upgrade
[12:45:41] <Gigs-> 7900 pounds!
[12:45:53] <andypugh> Weight is good in a machine tool.
[12:46:05] <archivist> solid meaty nourishment :)
[12:46:53] <archivist> never mind gun parts, that will make tank parts
[12:47:18] <andypugh> Why is it that eBay.co.uk has "lowest first" sorting, and ebay.com doesn't?
[12:47:29] <jdhNC> different cookie
[12:47:38] <Gigs-> thanks for the alternatives, but still leaning toward the new machine. I don't think I'd be good at scraping ways or fixing up an older one.
[12:48:12] <Gigs-> my dad is a good machinist but his back is bad, and I'm a relative newb to it
[12:48:18] <jdhNC> I think there is some bias toward making things that work vs. just wanting to make parts
[12:48:28] <Tom_itx> Gigs- i forgot where you were located..
[12:48:32] <Gigs-> virginia
[12:48:43] <Tom_itx> mmm i was thinking of lorez
[12:48:46] <Tom_itx> in ok
[12:48:47] <andypugh> True, you will get very diffferent advice on PracticalMachinist.com
[12:48:50] <Gigs-> he's in virginia too I think
[12:48:52] <archivist> andypugh, I get a different default when I change to another pc on ebay.co.uk, dunno how to set the default yet
[12:48:57] <Tom_itx> Gigs- he is?
[12:49:00] <Tom_itx> he was in Ok
[12:49:03] <Gigs-> yeah like near the beach I thought
[12:49:07] <Gigs-> maybe that was someone else
[12:49:16] <andypugh> archivist: I am not meaning the default, I am meaing that the option isn't even there.
[12:49:27] <Tom_itx> i'd check the local market for used machines too
[12:49:43] <jdhNC> http://www.ebay.com/itm/220931275998
[12:49:59] <ScribbleJ> how do you move something like that?
[12:50:22] <andypugh> We are biased, we are hanging about, for fun, on a forum related to retrofitting. If Giggs wants to make parts then I think a turnkey Tormach is a very good choice.
[12:51:09] <jdhNC> and lots of TTS, and the auto tool changer
[12:51:14] <ScribbleJ> http://www.flickr.com/photos/13723140@N04/7315508628/in/photostream
[12:51:36] <andypugh> But you might as well buy tooling as you need it,
[12:51:36] <jdhNC> It's beautiful. Or something.
[12:51:57] <archivist> andypugh, the .com is price and shipping added lowest first if you want
[12:52:03] <Tom_itx> i'd like to find a machine like that and cnc it myself
[12:52:14] <Tom_itx> that would save probably at least 1/3 the cost i bet
[12:52:21] <Tom_itx> probably more
[12:52:38] <jdhNC> I'd have to factor in the cost of the divorce and moving.
[12:52:41] <ScribbleJ> I'd love to find a machine like that and CNC it myself.... but my first problem would be how do you move something so big and heavy. And that would be my second and third problem too. The fourth would be how you power it.
[12:52:41] <ScribbleJ> Heh
[12:52:46] <andypugh> archivist: Yes, but shipping distorts things when I am looking at eBay.com
[12:52:55] <Tom_itx> jdhNC hitmen cost less
[12:52:55] <archivist> true
[12:53:45] <jdhNC> Tom; I'm pretty sure they don't really exist. At least the ones you hear about are undercover policemen.
[12:53:54] <Tom_itx> ScribbleJ i'd love to have that problem
[12:55:54] <andypugh> There is also the danger with a used CNC that it was scrapped for a reason. Like the way that the last 3 PC PSUs I have pulled out the skip at work have been brokem!
[12:56:38] <ScribbleJ> Is there a better way to figure out what speed/accel my machine can ahndle than to just keep driving it faster and listening for skipped steps and grinds?
[12:56:59] <andypugh> No, that's the way
[12:57:03] <Tom_itx> andypugh, yeah it's a risk but no risk no reward
[12:57:06] <ScribbleJ> related: is there a chart someplace of decent feedrates and spindle speeds for various bits and materials?
[12:57:28] <Tom_itx> ScribbleJ i posted one the other day
[13:01:47] <Tom_itx> http://www.custompartnet.com/calculator/milling-speed-and-feed
[13:01:52] <Tom_itx> that was one of them
[13:02:12] <archivist> ScribbleJ, I loaded (weights) the machine upped the numbers till it skipped, then backed off quite a bit
[13:02:19] <Tom_itx> http://www.daycounter.com/Calculators/GCode/Feed-Rate-Calculator.phtml
[13:02:22] <Tom_itx> that one shows materials
[13:02:29] <Tom_itx> ScribbleJ ^^
[13:02:49] <andypugh> This looks fun:
http://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/walter-feeds-speeds/id454963587?mt=8
[13:03:54] <Tom_itx> ok, off to the post office then maybe i'll test out my new wiring
[13:04:26] <Tom_itx> andypugh what sort of machine do you have?
[13:05:03] <andypugh> Err, well, I feel like the famous emperor now.
[13:05:29] <Tom_itx> i know you do alot of testing but never knew what you used
[13:05:54] <andypugh> I have a cheap chinese lathe/mill combo and I am part way through converting a Harrison universal miller
[13:06:13] <andypugh> But I don't actually do much actual machining.
[13:06:18] <ScribbleJ> Jeez, how big is the working area on a mill that can make a universe?
[13:06:31] <ScribbleJ> thanks for those links, Tom_itx
[13:06:40] <Tom_itx> i knew that, i think you get more out of coding maybe?
[13:06:52] <andypugh> I am downloading the iPhone App
[13:07:04] <jdhNC> and DIY motors
[13:07:10] <andypugh> At the moment, possibly. I go in phases.
[13:07:15] <Tom_itx> don't we all
[13:07:20] <Tom_itx> ok, gtg
[13:07:25] <andypugh> I like that I can move from one aspect to another
[13:07:41] <Tom_itx> same, but i'm not so good at some things
[13:07:56] <Tom_itx> keep trying to improve though
[13:33:55] <Gigs-> I don't speak german, can someone give me a quick rundown of the relationship between linuxcnc and EMC?
[13:34:41] <djdelorie> EMC is a file server company. LinuxCNC is a machine control program
[13:34:46] <A0Sheds> same thing, new name IIRC
[13:36:01] <djdelorie> LinuxCNC used to call itself "EMC" for "enhanced machine controller" but EMC asked it to change, and LinuxCNC agreed to.
[13:36:11] <Gigs-> oh ok
[13:37:18] <Gigs-> so let me see if I have this right... the machine controller is going to take... some format that is basically machine commands
[13:37:33] <Gigs-> cam software can generate these paths from cad, right?
[13:37:51] <djdelorie> LinuxCNC takes industry-standard "gcode" for commands. G-Code can be generated by cad/cam packages, scripts, text editors, etc.
[13:37:52] <Gigs-> The last CNC I worked with was a tiny one in 1993
[13:39:24] <Gigs-> yeah I think I wrote gcode directly back then
[13:40:05] <Gigs-> are there special controller cards or is it all USB now?
[13:40:44] <archivist> usb is a nono, too much latency
[13:42:19] <ScribbleJ> Believe it or not, most folks are using parallel ports now.
[13:42:24] <ScribbleJ> So we're totally current with 1993 tech.
[13:42:29] <djdelorie> Gigs-: typically, either plain parallel ports or PCI gpio cards
[13:42:32] <Gigs-> http://www.tormach.com/store/index.php?app=ecom&ns=prodshow&ref=30260
[13:42:37] <Gigs-> it looks like a parallel cable
[13:43:00] <Gigs-> so this stuff is pretty standardized?
[13:43:03] <djdelorie> IEEE-1284 *is* parallel
[13:43:18] <Gigs-> I could save some money by not buying their windows/mach3 controller if there's open source toolchains
[13:43:19] <djdelorie> note: usb-to-parallel adapters will *not* work
[13:43:29] <Gigs-> yeah usb-to-parallel always sucked
[13:43:36] <djdelorie> it's free to try, go for it! :-)
[13:43:38] <ScribbleJ> Gigs-, if Mach3 will drive it, LinuxCNC will drive it.
[13:43:43] <ScribbleJ> You'll have no problem.
[13:43:56] <Gigs-> well they mention that they used to sell linux/EMC based controllers
[13:44:04] <andypugh> I think Tormach will supply LinuxCNC pre-configured?
[13:44:06] <Gigs-> I think they stopped because they didn't want to do tech support on it
[13:44:17] <Gigs-> there's old documents that indicate they did
[13:44:39] <andypugh> Really? They seem fairly keen on LinuxCNC, they even offered to host an event at their factory.
[13:44:47] <Gigs-> I guess not any more
[13:44:57] <Gigs-> the one document I saw seemed to strongly encourage mach3 use
[13:45:13] <Gigs-> and now it's not an option on their site anymore to get EMC
[13:45:43] <djdelorie> perhaps they offer it, but don't advertise it? People who need lots of support get the newbie-hand-holding software, people who know what they want get what they want
[13:46:21] <Gigs-> other than a ruggedized PC I don't see much benefit in buying it preconfigured from them
[13:46:46] <Gigs-> is it that hard to configure?
[13:46:56] <andypugh> No, not at all.
[13:47:13] <Gigs-> then I might as well save a $800 and use a computer I have laying around
[13:47:16] <Connor> Is that one stepper or servo based ?
[13:47:18] <archivist> getting a low latency motherboard is the only issue
[13:47:20] <djdelorie> the process is easy, but if you don't understand the terminology it can be a bit confusing, and easy to mis-configure. Ask here for help :-)
[13:47:21] <Gigs-> step connor
[13:47:36] <Connor> Simple $300.00 Atom PC will do you
[13:47:37] <Gigs-> djdelorie: I will thanks
[13:47:40] <djdelorie> I'm using an ancient pc I pulled out of the junk pile, works fine
[13:47:54] <andypugh> http://www.tormach.com/store/index.php?app=ecom&ns=prodshow&ref=TMC
[13:48:07] <andypugh> There you are, two options.
[13:48:27] <Gigs-> oh ok
[13:48:27] <Connor> Atom PC with 4 gig of ram 64 GB SSD would cost around $180.00 or so, throw in another $60 for the case.
[13:48:51] <Gigs-> yeah a tiny PC you could stick on the vesa mount with the monitor would be cool
[13:48:53] <Gigs-> save some room
[13:49:03] <Gigs-> might be a little tricky to find a tiny atom with parallel though
[13:49:43] <Connor> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813121442
[13:49:56] <Connor> use a PCI based parport card
[13:50:00] <andypugh> http://www.tormach.com/uploads/226/TD_ControlSystemAlternatives-pdf.html
[13:50:18] <andypugh> The D525MW has Parallel
[13:50:21] <Gigs-> connor as opposed to one integrated in the southbridge?
[13:50:29] <Connor> Yea.
[13:50:33] <Gigs-> why?
[13:51:08] <Connor> Just easier. for me. I had issues with the onboard one.. I'm not sure if anyone here has gotten the onboard one to work ?
[13:51:11] <andypugh> Just get this:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813121442
[13:51:18] <djdelorie> ZAP! Damn, need another motherboard...
[13:51:28] <Connor> andypugh: That's the one I linked to. :)
[13:51:29] <djdelorie> vs ZAP! Damn, need another cheap pci card...
[13:51:42] <andypugh> At $79 anothr motherboard isn't such an isue
[13:51:43] <Gigs-> connor it may have been a voltage levels issue
[13:51:57] <Gigs-> some MBs like to do stuff like only drive it up to 3.3v or less
[13:52:11] <Gigs-> LPT is supposed to be 0-5 IIRC
[13:52:12] <djdelorie> 3.3v is *valid* though
[13:52:20] <andypugh> Or, if you zap the motherboard parport, that's your excuse for the Mesa 5i25 upgrade
[13:52:24] <djdelorie> it's 0-5 *TTL* so anything about 2.4v is legal
[13:52:28] <pcw_home> 2.4V ls valid TTL
[13:54:04] <Connor> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16815104231
[13:54:17] <Connor> Dual port parport card. the one I use and is known to work without issues.
[13:56:13] <andypugh> The D525MW motherboard parport is known to work without issues too, and the board has great latency
[13:57:06] <pcw_home> the D525 PP also works in EPP mode for Pico systems and our EPP stuff
[13:57:35] <ScribbleJ> what is great latency?
[13:57:40] <djdelorie> zero
[13:57:41] <djdelorie> :-)
[13:57:46] <ScribbleJ> I bought the D525MW, it's what i'm using.
[13:57:47] <djdelorie> switching computers...
[13:58:05] <pcw_home> pretty sure the D525 is <10 usec
[13:58:48] <Connor> I have my base thread set to 3000 or so.
[13:59:15] <Connor> I get a error when loading emc, but,I think it's because of the loading.
[14:00:08] <pcw_home> someone on IRC got even better numbers from the DN2800MT
[14:00:23] <ScribbleJ> I'm reasonably certain I set mine to 10k and still get the error.
[14:00:38] <Connor> is Tormach part of LMS or LMS just one of the only distributors ?
[14:00:58] <Gigs-> I wonder that myself
[14:01:03] <Gigs-> the prices are the same
[14:01:47] <ReadError_> ScribbleJ
[14:01:50] <ReadError_> did you do that mod
[14:01:51] <Connor> Admin contacts on the two domains are different.
[14:01:56] <ScribbleJ> Wait, what mod?
[14:01:59] <andypugh> LMS sell other stuff too.
[14:02:00] <ReadError_> where it dedicates 1 CPU to RT ?
[14:02:04] <Gigs-> connor the sites are layed out similarly
[14:02:15] <ScribbleJ> I don't think I have, no.
[14:02:32] <Connor> Tormach in Wisconsin, LMS in Pasadena, CA
[14:02:36] <ScribbleJ> If you blow your latency does linuxcnc skip steps or just get delayed?
[14:02:45] <Gigs-> LMS is drop shipping the tormach stuff at a minimum
[14:03:03] <Gigs-> because it all ships from the factory
[14:03:08] <Connor> Maybe the large stuff.. not the tooling and QCTP and stuff.
[14:03:19] <Gigs-> yeah
[14:03:31] <ReadError_> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?The_Isolcpus_Boot_Parameter_And_GRUB2
[14:04:03] <Connor> oh, and turn hyper-threading OFF
[14:05:24] <ScribbleJ> Ok, thanks... I'll try both those things.
[14:06:24] <Connor> Gigs-: I like my G0704 I just converted.
[14:11:55] <Gigs-> connor how much for the base machine and what do you have in the conversion money wise
[14:13:00] <Connor> Just a few min, on phone with a client.
[14:13:23] <Gigs-> ok np
[14:15:58] <Gigs-> Any of you all machined extrusion ABS, the kind with the haircell texture on one side?
[14:16:04] <andypugh> ScribbleJ: If you over-run then there is a warning printed once, but LinuxCNC carries on.
[14:17:51] <_abc_> What do people use as cheap probe?
[14:17:59] <_abc_> I mean a 3D switch?
[14:19:47] <_abc_> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Touch_Probe okay am reading stuff
[14:21:08] <jymmm> I have a single burner BUTANE stove, can I use PROPANE with it?
[14:21:25] <mrsun> why not
[14:21:32] <mrsun> butane, propane .. same shit different carbon attoms :P
[14:21:33] <jymmm> wrong answer
[14:21:49] <mrsun> they mix propane/butane to make different grades of gas
[14:21:59] <jymmm> you can't use NG and LPG as example
[14:22:16] <mrsun> and what is NG and LPG ?
[14:22:31] <andypugh> There is a cheap one on the market, and it looks like it might actually be available (I thought it was vaporware)
http://www.wildhorse-innovations.com/index.php?_a=viewProd&productId=80&added=1
[14:22:32] <jymmm> LPG == Propane
[14:22:43] <andypugh> _abc_: That link was for you
[14:22:53] <mrsun> Varieties of LPG bought and sold include mixes that are primarily propane (C3H8), primarily butane (C4H10) and, most commonly, mixes including both propane and butane, depending on the season — in winter more propane, in summer more butane[citation needed].
[14:23:47] <jymmm> andypugh: you can hit up alex4nder for details on that mobo
[14:24:28] <alex4nder> sup
[14:25:16] <andypugh> I bought that DN2800 motherboard, on a whim
[14:25:54] <jymmm> mrsun: See, even that wikipedia entry is questionable as in cold weather propane doesn't do so well on the liquid to gas conversation. Not sure if it's better or worse than butane, but I have noticed that butane (lighter) needs to be heated (body temp) sometime to ignite.
[14:26:03] <alex4nder> andypugh: it's working well for me.
[14:26:21] <alex4nder> the only issue I've found so far is a complete lack of good graphics drivers.
[14:26:38] <andypugh> I am thinking I made a mistake, as I was going to use the Mesa 5i25 card with it, and it has the wrong sort of PCI
[14:26:40] <alex4nder> I'm running vesa with mine.
[14:26:54] <alex4nder> andypugh: oh, yah, that's not happening.
[14:27:00] <alex4nder> it's all modern.
[14:27:04] <alex4nder> with and PCIe
[14:27:08] <andypugh> I saw really cheap adaptors, then realised that they were not what I thought.
[14:27:08] <alex4nder> s/and//
[14:27:17] <Gigs-> butane has a higher boiling point and flash point than propane
[14:27:24] <_abc_> andypugh: looks like yet another implementation of the same patent
[14:27:27] <Gigs-> it need to be hotter to keep the pressure up
[14:27:45] <andypugh> _abc_: Yes, but ready-built and dirt cheap
[14:27:57] <_abc_> $100 is not cheap for a fancy contact
[14:28:06] <_abc_> andypugh: I can do better than that for $19
[14:28:06] <andypugh> It is for a probe
[14:28:23] <andypugh> Using?
[14:28:29] <_abc_> no comment :)
[14:28:35] <_abc_> it has a ruby tip even
[14:29:14] <andypugh> And works in 3D
[14:29:16] <andypugh> ?
[14:29:26] <_abc_> 2.5 to 3...
[14:29:36] <andypugh> I have seen tuby-tipped precision limit switches.
[14:29:46] <_abc_> it is not a switch
[14:30:09] <andypugh> But they cost twice as much as the Wildhorse probe, just for the switch
[14:30:23] <_abc_> no...
[14:30:23] <andypugh> Are talking about a webcam?
[14:30:27] <_abc_> no!
[14:30:46] <andypugh> I am bored of this game.
[14:30:51] <_abc_> You will have to wait until I put it up somewhere as a product I guess
[14:30:54] <alex4nder> what
[14:31:01] <_abc_> Anyway it is not patentable so just wait
[14:31:34] <Connor> Gigs-: G0704 is $1194.00 to your down. add a few more $$ for life gate service)
[14:32:21] <Connor> 3 Axis: 570Oz-in steppers with drivers, psu and BOB, $543.00
[14:32:54] <Gigs-> bob?
[14:33:01] <Connor> Then, you have options from there as to make or purchase the stepper mounts, and if your going to do ball screws or use stock screw.
[14:33:07] <Connor> BOB = Break out board.
[14:33:27] <Connor> Parallel break out board with opto isolation.
[14:33:31] <andypugh> _abc_: I doubt that the Wildhorse probe costs them anywhere near $20 in materials, but they have to make, build and sell them.
[14:33:32] <Gigs-> what are you using for the controller?
[14:33:53] <Connor> That Atom Mobo I linked to above and LinuxCNC
[14:34:08] <_abc_> andypugh: yes the work and testing cost much more than the device
[14:34:23] <Connor> Is this machine for Hobby, prototyping, or production, and what's your time frame for needing it ?
[14:34:52] <Gigs-> prototyping and production
[14:35:13] <Connor> So, You'll probably want to go ball screw
[14:35:35] <andypugh> I think that the Tormach is a fair bit more "serious" in construction than the G0704
[14:36:11] <Gigs-> I agree, I don't know if I need all that considering the project at hand is mostly going to be machining ABS, but thinking about future work, I don't know
[14:36:29] <Tom_itx> Gigs-, for the pc, i'd go with the atom D525 and a mesa pci card
[14:36:44] <andypugh> It sounds to me like you need a machine, not a new and interesting hobby.
[14:36:53] <Tom_itx> i would have but the pci card wasn't available when i got mine so mine is a parallel port card
[14:37:36] <alex4nder> Gigs-: how big of a footprint do you need?
[14:37:56] <Gigs-> not very big right now, the question is what I'd need for future stuff
[14:38:16] <Tom_itx> let the future pay for itself
[14:38:19] <alex4nder> yah
[14:38:28] <alex4nder> you'll want a newer bigger machine in the future.
[14:38:57] <jymmm> skunkworks: Did you hear what alex4nder said? you need a BIGGER machine!
[14:39:42] <alex4nder> always
[14:39:49] <Connor> That was with my suggestion of the G0704. For almost half the cost of the base 770, he can have a fully functional CNC that'll handle just about anything small scale without much issue.. and If he's never done anything CNC wise, he'll learn a hell of allot putting it together.
[14:40:03] <Connor> their is a outfit retrofitting G0704's now also.
[14:41:37] <Tom_itx> Gigs-, it's a bit of a learning curve but i'm sure you're up for it and when you're done you won't need to call tech support when something happens
[14:42:39] <Connor> psha: You around? andypugh ask you about that issue with GladeVCP and the open button ?
[14:42:48] <Tom_itx> there options for 2.5d cad out there that are decent too so unless you need full 3d you can get by for a lot less on that
[14:42:53] <Gigs-> sounds like the argument for building your own gun from a kit hehe
[14:43:06] <Gigs-> any of you use BRL-cad?
[14:43:14] <Tom_itx> never heard of it
[14:43:21] <Tom_itx> cambam is one
[14:43:22] <Gigs-> brl-cad uses CSG
[14:43:35] <Gigs-> it was developed for ballistics research originally but it's open source now
[14:43:36] <andypugh> Whoa! nc is fun, and the manpage is even well written and readbale.
[14:43:36] <Tom_itx> i use a pro package i used to program with
[14:43:39] <jymmm> brl == .mil???
[14:43:49] <Gigs-> yeah it was written by them jymmm
[14:43:56] <Gigs-> open source since like 2005 though
[14:44:33] <Gigs-> I like the idea of CSG because most of the 3d work I've ever done has been in second life heh
[14:44:44] <Gigs-> so I'm pretty familiar with modeling based on primitives
[14:46:41] <Gigs-> how stiff is the g0704?
[14:47:15] <Connor> It's pretty good. Better design than the X3's.
[14:47:55] <roycroft> the g0704 was not out yet when i got my x3 clone
[14:47:58] <roycroft> g0463?
[14:48:14] <Connor> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/benchtop_machines/111863-hosss_g0704.html
[14:48:20] <roycroft> i'd likely have gotten it if it were
[14:48:31] <Connor> also check out the the benchtop forum too.. LOTS of people converting the 704's
[14:49:32] <Connor> Gigs-: What kind of budget do you have in mind ?
[14:51:00] <roycroft> i wonder if the way covers for the 0703 could be adapted to the 0463
[14:51:11] <roycroft> i still don't have way covers and it bugs me a lot
[14:51:38] <Connor> I'm going to do stainless hinged one on the back for the Z/Y
[14:52:20] <psha> Connor: around
[14:52:21] <psha> no
[14:52:26] <psha> have not asked
[14:52:33] <roycroft> what machine do you have, connor?
[14:52:41] <Connor> roycroft: G0704
[14:52:44] <roycroft> aah
[14:53:16] <Connor> (12:57:21 PM) andypugh: Ah, psha!
[14:53:16] <Connor> (12:57:49 PM) andypugh: Is the _button in line 184 of fileselect.py (or whatever the name is) correct?
[14:53:16] <Connor> (12:58:04 PM) andypugh: It seems to more nearly work without it.
[14:53:16] <Connor> (12:59:05 PM) andypugh: The line number is from memory too. So might be wrong.
[14:54:35] <joe9> is brl-cad better than freecad? I like freecad as it takes python scripts.
[14:58:17] <Connor> psha: I was trying to make a button to open a g-code file automatically (well, in this case a .py file for F-Engrave)
[14:59:09] <psha> and?
[14:59:20] <Connor> Didn't work.
[14:59:29] <Connor> Nothing happens when I click the button.
[14:59:42] <psha> any errors in console?
[14:59:53] <psha> wait a bit, i'll update my tree
[14:59:57] <psha> what version are you using?
[15:00:20] <Connor> 2.5 sim atm.. Not tried it on the production box.
[15:05:27] <psha> Connor: if you replace that line with just self._load_file...?
[15:05:30] <psha> better?
[15:05:55] <Connor> Be just a few before I can try it out.
[15:06:19] <psha> _button was removed long-long ago
[15:06:25] <psha> but that's code path was not tested
[15:07:06] <psha> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hQpVY3Dhzg
[15:07:08] <psha> :)
[15:10:39] <archivist> joe9, brl-cad will take a bit of learning but its use case is not general design (at the moment)
[15:11:28] <joe9> archivist: ok, thanks.
[15:12:23] <andypugh> psha: That's marvellous. But I wish there was a data counter
[15:12:30] <psha> yea
[15:12:46] <andypugh> Some echos live on, look at this part of the NL / BE border:
https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=baal&hl=en&ll=51.45144,4.96685&spn=0.186993,0.451126&sll=51.457216,4.965477&sspn=0.18697,0.451126&t=m&radius=11.67&hq=baal&z=12
[15:14:59] <gene77> jthornton?
[15:15:16] <psha> andypugh: wow, nice border :)
[15:15:32] <psha> http://www.openmapsurfer.uni-hd.de/?zoom=13&lat=51.43918&lon=4.92518&layers=00000BFFF
[15:15:38] <psha> a bit cleaner look at same place
[15:16:09] <andypugh> There are bits of holland inside bits of belgium inside bits of holland
[15:17:04] <gene77> JTshop?
[15:17:12] <andypugh> The rule is that whether you re in holland or belgium depends on where your front door is. Apparently people have been known to move doors for tax reasons.
[15:17:45] <_abc_> andypugh: yes, and when you use your cell in your garage you pay roaming
[15:18:38] <Tom_itx> andypugh some eating establishment here is on a state line where one state allows liquor and the other doesn't. they have mixed seating
[15:18:43] <_abc_> Borders like that were the main reason for the EU law on roaming charge limiting :)
[15:18:52] <_abc_> Tom_itx: lol
[15:19:10] <_abc_> Tom_itx: I never realized how dry some parts of North America are until I visited Canada
[15:19:25] <_abc_> Tom_itx: looks like Prohibition never stopped, it was just toned down a little
[15:19:54] <_abc_> Strange for advanced countries like Scandinavia and USA& Canada to hand on to silly things like that
[15:19:58] <andypugh> Canada never had Prohibition
[15:20:21] <_abc_> andypugh: No, but they have the Ontario LCBO which is about as bad as Alkoholbolaget
[15:20:25] <_abc_> in Sweden
[15:20:45] <gene77> That sounds like Kentucky here, where the city has to be so big before they can vote a specific area in the city as wet. Then they have to make more than 50% of their income from food to boot.
[15:21:04] <Tom_itx> i saw a video once where niagra falls had frozen over and cars were hauling licker across the ice to the US
[15:21:18] <Tom_itx> like model A era
[15:21:21] <_abc_> heh
[15:21:52] <Tom_itx> i think it's only frozen over maybe once or twice.. is that fair to say?
[15:22:02] <gene77> Lots of Kentucky are dryer than a bone, but that doesn't stop Jack Daniels from brewing, but they can't taste it without taking it to a wet place. Might be 100 miles!
[15:22:08] <_abc_> Tom_itx: If you read .ca news, there is a row now over a lightening of liquor (wine!) laws which was supposed to allow one Canadian province't wineries to supply another. It did not go through...
[15:22:29] <_abc_> gene77: lol you can brew but not taste?
[15:22:54] <gene77> Thats correct
[15:23:10] <_abc_> Tom_itx: we are in 2012, wine from all over the planet is being exported and imported and 2 cnadian Provinces can't pass it between them in a truck ...
[15:23:16] <_abc_> Tom_itx: you call that okay?
[15:23:24] <gene77> Lynchburg is dry
[15:23:29] <_abc_> I'm in Eastern Europe, not even the monks are dry here
[15:23:36] <_abc_> I mean the nuns
[15:23:50] <_abc_> And there is remarkably little drunkenness
[15:23:54] <_abc_> Considering
[15:24:36] <gene77> That is because of the drunken driving laws I expect, 10x stiffer than here in the US
[15:24:57] <_abc_> gene77: here?!
[15:24:58] <_abc_> haha
[15:25:00] <_abc_> lol
[15:25:30] <_abc_> I think 5 years is the maximum for killing someone while dui
[15:25:42] <jdhNC> lynchburg is in TN
[15:26:02] <jdhNC> and they do taste... just can't sell it.
[15:26:05] <_abc_> Russia has a serious problem with alcohol, however
[15:26:25] <_abc_> It is on their government's priority agenda
[15:26:41] <psha> ggg
[15:26:53] <psha> on our government priority is to sell oil and gas
[15:26:58] <_abc_> The worls is quite strange in many ways, countries and areas have very weird laws when you look at them from a distance.
[15:27:04] <Tom_itx> http://yawoot.com/post/3714
[15:27:10] <_abc_> pasha yes, I know. We buy some...
[15:27:10] <Tom_itx> see if that works
[15:27:17] <jdhNC> 45,000 alcohol related traffic deaths in the .us, that doesn't seem to be a problem though.
[15:27:24] <psha> _abc_: everything else is not interesting for our gov
[15:27:25] <gene77> Its all bible belt, Baptist is very anti alky. And I are one, sorta. :)
[15:27:29] <psha> unfortunately
[15:28:25] <psha> ah, and to tell people that they have to thank government for everything they have
[15:28:27] <_abc_> Alcohol related traffic deaths: counting those who died while looking at a sexy ad for liquor, those who had a beer can slip under the brake pedal, those who walked in front of a bus while hudding 8 sixpacks, ... :)
[15:28:58] <_abc_> psha: was it not thank $deity before 1917 for that?
[15:29:05] <_abc_> psha: how the leaders change >:)
[15:29:25] <_abc_> psha: at least they got closer, no longer required to reach for the sky to replace them >:) >:)
[15:29:40] <psha> not closer
[15:29:51] <psha> we have our 'national leader' for at least 12 years more
[15:29:59] <_abc_> I know how that works
[15:30:02] <gene77> Where is Big John?
[15:30:16] <psha> and he's there since ~2000
[15:30:17] <_abc_> Okay enough politics
[15:30:45] <psha> Connor: any success?
[15:30:49] <_abc_> What other means do people use besides accelerometers, cameras and switches, to sense contact for a probe?
[15:30:53] <gene77> Yeah, around here that can generate bloody noses...
[15:30:58] <Connor> psha: Sorry, At work, on phone with client.
[15:31:31] <psha> ok
[15:31:32] <Connor> psha: okay, I'm off.. what do I need to change and were?
[15:31:34] <psha> it's late here
[15:31:40] <psha> ah
[15:32:18] <psha> Connor:
http://psha.org.ru/tmp/filechooser.patch
[15:32:52] <andypugh> You can just edit the file by hand, if you prefer.
[15:33:13] <Connor> doing so. I just need to find where that hal_filechooser.py file is on my file system
[15:33:21] <psha> andypugh: however patch file contains a) filename b) line number c) what you need to replace :)
[15:33:30] <psha> that's just form to tell him what to change
[15:33:45] <psha> Connor: dpkg -L linuxcnc-sim | grep hal_filech
[15:38:06] <Connor> were does asix/linuxcnc log erros from glade at ?
[15:39:13] <andypugh> I changed that last night, and then if seemed to fall over somewhere else:
https://picasaweb.google.com/108164504656404380542/CNCUnsorted#5746547530954320162
[15:39:39] <andypugh> Ah, no, not that. Can't copy and paste from VM..
[15:39:57] <Connor> http://www.pastebin.ca/2157344
[15:41:49] <andypugh> Connor: Is that with LinuxCNC open?
[15:41:53] <Connor> yes
[15:42:08] <Connor> ran from command line
[15:42:15] <Connor> and outputed to stdout
[15:42:24] <andypugh> LinuxCNC_Action_Open at a guess
[15:43:35] <Connor> I think it's issue with get_filter_program..
[15:43:39] <Connor> self.ini
[15:44:22] <andypugh> Yes, it is looking in the INI file for a filefilter.
[15:44:56] <andypugh> That's where I drew a blank last night
[15:52:00] <psha> Connor: another try
[15:52:04] <psha> patch at same place
[15:57:16] <Connor> http://pastebin.ca/2157351
[16:00:35] <DJ9DJ> gn8
[16:00:43] <jymmm> dn9
[16:00:53] <jymmm> gn9 even
[16:05:03] <psha> Connor: heh, now i remember why there was _button :)
[16:05:13] <Connor> why? :)
[16:06:50] <psha> Connor: another try
[16:06:52] <psha> same place
[16:10:14] <Connor> okay, no crash, no errors, but no work either.
[16:12:28] <psha> :)
[16:13:12] <Connor> what does that : pass do ?
[16:13:26] <psha> nothing
[16:13:38] <psha> no need to load filters since there is not file chooser dialog
[16:13:50] <Connor> Oh.
[16:13:54] <psha> Connor: you have fixed file name?
[16:13:56] <psha> do you?
[16:14:03] <psha> may you try just simple .ngc file?
[16:14:06] <Connor> let me double check
[16:15:08] <Connor> Hmmm..
[16:15:17] <Connor> Okay, it changed the name in the titlebar to test.ngc
[16:15:47] <Connor> but, the g-code screen still has the old splash g-code
[16:16:50] <Connor> but, it's DOING the correct g-code file.
[16:18:08] <Connor> let me try it with fengrace.py file now.
[16:21:28] <Connor> Again, it works. but for what ever reason, the G-code file window still shows the old code, and the visual display of the file is incorrect.
[16:23:34] <psha> i've not found way to tell axis to reload file preview
[16:23:44] <psha> gremlin checks reload events and reflects that
[16:23:45] <psha> but not axis
[16:24:27] <Connor> Okay, so, that's expected behavior? For now ?
[16:24:42] <psha> yes
[16:24:56] <psha> so it's working now?
[16:25:11] <Connor> Yes, I just had to run the job.
[16:25:31] <jdhNC> does it update when you run it?
[16:25:41] <Connor> need to smack axis around a little to get it to know about the new file.
[16:25:44] <Connor> jdhNC: No.
[16:26:05] <Connor> It flips through the commands.. as if it WAS the file.. and continues to go even after it runs out...
[16:26:15] <jdhNC> heh
[16:26:19] <Connor> only way to tell it's right is based on the name in the title, and the path as it runs.
[16:26:35] <jdhNC> makes doing touch-offs to it difficult
[16:27:17] <Connor> Yea, I was just trying to embed f-engrave into the gui to make it a little easier..
[16:27:33] <Connor> if he can tell axis that a reload even happened.. then we're good.
[16:28:17] <jdhNC> vs. file/open/fengrave.py?
[16:28:27] <Connor> jdhNC: Correct.
[16:28:32] <Connor> Just a short cut.
[16:28:42] <Connor> Lotta trouble for that.. I thought it was a easy thing. :)
[16:29:23] <jdhNC> you get to learn something
[16:29:25] <Connor> ROFL, someone should come up with a Mach3 like GUI for EMC. :)
[16:37:50] <andypugh> Connor: You can do an entire GUI in Glade, so you could make one. :-)
[16:38:23] <Connor> andypugh: Yea. No. I don't have any desire. Just though it would be cute for those Mach3 noobs. :)
[16:38:24] <jdhNC> add a gremlin window for fengrave
[16:39:37] <Connor> Glade is a little strange about the icons though.. some of the built in ones don't display when you run the Gui..
[16:39:41] <Connor> not sure what that's about.
[17:13:26] <frallzor> yoyo bubbahs
[17:51:05] <andypugh> pcw_home: What is the Instance stride for the UART?
[17:51:22] <andypugh> md seems to say 4, I think it is 10
[17:51:31] <frallzor> not much action here today =)
[17:51:51] <Tom_itx> frallzor you missed it all
[17:52:02] <frallzor> aww =(
[17:52:27] <frallzor> http://www.lolz.se/uploader/pics/morgans2.jpg todays work, a nice gift =)
[17:52:36] <frallzor> its in swedish
[17:53:19] <andypugh> A nice drop of grog.
[18:10:45] <Tom_itx> so where do you search for 20yr old data sheets for electronic parts?
[18:10:57] <andypugh> The interwebs
[18:11:06] <Tom_itx> alldatasheet doesn't know about it
[18:11:18] <Tom_itx> came up dry so far
[18:11:19] <andypugh> What part?
[18:11:23] <Tom_itx> WEP170
[18:11:27] <Tom_itx> i think it's 2A diode
[18:11:34] <Tom_itx> but dunno the voltage
[18:13:02] <Tom_itx> tryin to fix up the centertap voltage for my smps regulator
[18:13:16] <andypugh> http://www.workmanelectronics.com/htmdocs/wep170.htm
[18:13:23] <Tom_itx> i have a bag of those and a bag of 1N4002
[18:13:38] <andypugh> Your google-fu is weak, young man.
[18:13:43] <Tom_itx> it must be
[18:13:53] <Tom_itx> i had 1000v down but wasn't sure
[18:14:00] <Tom_itx> at 2a
[18:14:09] <Tom_itx> ahh, workman
[18:14:17] <Tom_itx> i thought they may have been phillips
[18:14:46] <Tom_itx> probably a better choice than the 1N4002
[18:14:57] <andypugh> What I did: Googled WEP170 diode, saw the manufacturer, googled the manufacturer, searched their site.
[18:15:11] <Tom_itx> i don't generally use google
[18:15:32] <andypugh> REligious reasons?
[18:15:42] <Tom_itx> absolutely
[18:15:57] <Tom_itx> unless it's friday the 13th
[18:15:59] <Tom_itx> then i will
[18:55:23] <gene77> Andy, I just got a box of 1mm and 1/32" mills in from MCT, so I stopped, changed the #60 for a 1mm, sweet, the s curves from the bit flex are gone. Progress.
[18:56:39] <jymmm> gene77: what you doin that's so tiny?
[18:57:22] <gene77> encoder wheel slots
[18:57:34] <jymmm> in metal?
[18:57:46] <andypugh> I did mine with a slitting saw.
[18:58:07] <andypugh> (horizontal axis on the rotary)
[18:58:29] <gene77> 0.018" alu sheet. neat, don't got.
[19:00:08] <gene77> I bought some 1mm's and some 1/32". maybe i can do a 60 cycle encoder yet
[19:07:59] <jdhNC> can I use single ended encoder inputs on a 7i47 by just feeding gnd or +5 to one side and signal to the other?
[19:14:03] <andypugh> yes, Gnd the /A etc
[19:14:08] <gene77> You will probably want to bias the fixed input at 1/2 VCC, or whatever the mid point of the active sides swing is. You will lose the noise immunity of the differential input though, so be carefull of the grounding and shielding.
[19:14:32] <andypugh> Ah, sorry, I answered the wrong question
[19:14:41] <gene77> The 7i47 isn't differential Andy?
[19:15:10] <Tom_itx> yes it is
[19:15:13] <Tom_itx> i have one
[19:15:31] <Tom_itx> you can use it single ended
[19:15:36] <Tom_itx> if you add a couple resistors
[19:15:36] <andypugh> I think we are talking differential card and TTL encoder?
[19:17:44] <jdhNC> differential 7i47, TTL output from sensor
[19:20:29] <Tom_itx> my MPG is ttl
[19:20:46] <Tom_itx> and it's wired to it
[19:21:13] <jdhNC> directly, or with a bias on the other side?
[19:21:39] <Tom_itx> i forget
[19:22:07] <Tom_itx> bias i think since i didn't use the differential outputs on it
[19:24:18] <jdhNC> can I use the same bias input for all 3 or do they need their own?
[19:24:25] <andypugh> I think you can ground the /inputs. There is still a difference to detect.
[19:24:46] <andypugh> If only pcw_home were here!
[19:25:30] <jdhNC> he said hooking up SE switches was ugly, grounding one side isn't particularly ugly to me.
[19:26:06] <jdhNC> but, seems like it would be getting 0 and +5, differential enough.
[19:27:26] <Tom_itx> andypugh i used a couple resistors
[19:27:34] <Tom_itx> i can check the values in a bit
[19:27:38] <jdhNC> for each one?
[19:28:01] <Tom_itx> no i use 2 or 3 though
[19:28:07] <Tom_itx> not one for each one
[19:29:08] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/cnc/pendant.jpg
[19:29:12] <Tom_itx> you can see them there
[19:32:38] <Tom_itx> ok, hold on.. i got about 3 things going on at once here
[19:35:19] <Tom_itx> i think they are 1k
[19:35:44] <Tom_itx> make a divider GND--1k--pin--1k---+5
[19:35:54] <Tom_itx> then tap off the pin for a few others
[19:36:06] <Tom_itx> should be able to drive 2 or 3 off each divider
[19:45:33] <jdhNC> 1k random or by design?
[19:45:44] <Tom_itx> i think he suggested that
[19:46:33] <Tom_itx> it's hard to see them on that pic but if you look close
[19:46:48] <jdhNC> I see them on P3, not on P4
[19:46:59] <Tom_itx> they may not be on all of them
[19:47:13] <Tom_itx> i used 2 or 3 iirc
[19:47:25] <Tom_itx> gimme a sec and i'll look closer
[19:47:33] <Tom_itx> tryin to finish something up here
[19:49:32] <jdhNC> looks like a/, b/ are tied to +5
[19:49:56] <jdhNC> not /, just the A, B, +5vdc
[19:50:20] <jdhNC> or maybe I'll go print the pinouts again.
[19:50:33] <JT-Shop> might have a wire or three confused
[19:52:36] <jdhNC> probably, their A and A/ seem backwards to me
[19:55:26] <Tom_itx> hmm i'm measuring about 600 ohms on one and 1k on the other
[19:55:33] <Tom_itx> it must not be a balanced divider
[19:55:53] <Tom_itx> and i didn't take good notes :(
[19:55:59] <Tom_itx> not like me
[19:56:14] <jdhNC> is the one to gnd or +5 higher?
[19:56:21] <jdhNC> or what is the bias voltage?
[19:57:05] <Tom_itx> 1k to 5v
[19:57:23] <Tom_itx> lemme plug it in
[19:58:18] <jdhNC> so 2ish volts?
[19:58:37] <Tom_itx> aww shit
[19:58:52] <Tom_itx> i pulled a wire off and have no idea where it goes now
[19:59:30] <Tom_itx> ok i'll worry about that later
[20:00:33] <Tom_itx> about 1.8v
[20:00:38] <Tom_itx> yeah 2 ish
[20:01:21] <jdhNC> thanks
[20:01:43] <jdhNC> wonder if R choice affects rise tim of the encoder input?
[20:01:50] <Tom_itx> yes
[20:02:03] <Tom_itx> too big and it may not work
[20:02:24] <Tom_itx> even though the divider is 2v
[20:02:28] <Tom_itx> current drop
[20:02:51] <Tom_itx> these values work
[20:03:43] <Tom_itx> now, where the hell does this wire...
[20:10:52] <Tom_itx> mmm it goes there, but why was that screw loose
[20:11:17] <jymmm> did you tin the wire?
[20:11:55] <Tom_itx> has nothing to do with the screw being unscrewed
[20:12:07] <jymmm> but did you TIN it?
[20:13:08] * Tom_itx makes a note that wire runs the spindle
[20:13:40] <jymmm> Tom_itx: Why are you avoiding my question, it was pretty simple
[20:13:52] <Tom_itx> i probably did, i don't recall atm
[20:14:07] <andypugh> Ah, well, there you go.
[20:14:07] <Tom_itx> not avoiding. multitasking
[20:14:19] <jymmm> If you use screw or crimp, you shouldn't tin/solder.
[20:14:20] <jdhNC> you tin wires for screw terminals? Don't they break?
[20:14:30] <jymmm> jdhNC: uh huh
[20:14:36] <andypugh> Bootlace ferrules FTW
[20:14:38] <jdhNC> I like weidmuller ferrules
[20:14:50] <jdhNC> or bootlace if you are so inclined.
[20:14:54] <jymmm> ferrules are cool
[20:14:55] <Tom_itx> ok but that's not why the screw was nearly falling out. it was clearly unscrewed
[20:15:04] <andypugh> Gremlins
[20:15:11] <jdhNC> actually, I've decided that I would just as soon let the techs do it.
[20:15:25] <jymmm> Tom_itx: a screw can come loos if it doens't have anything to bite into
[20:15:51] <jymmm> but if it came all the way out, that's a different matter
[20:15:55] * Tom_itx is not traveling this road tonight
[20:16:02] <jymmm> heh
[20:16:36] <andypugh> My dad, somewhere, has a ferrule crimp. I should steal it, he definitely has no use for it.
[20:16:37] <Tom_itx> it's been sitting in a drawer untouched for several weeks
[20:17:10] <jymmm> andypugh: Yes, yes you should =)
[20:17:44] <jdhNC> I have a weidmuller PZ4 I got somewhere
[20:17:49] <Connor> I have a Coax cable crimper that has a small crimper on it I use for ferrules.. It makes them kind flat.. but they work
[20:17:50] <Tom_itx> damn, i had a run on programmers today.
[20:17:55] <Tom_itx> need to get them out
[20:18:47] <jymmm> Tom_itx: WHAAAAAAT?! You haven't made a automatic packing, labeling, and shipping machine yet?!
[20:18:56] <jdhNC> Tom; word of mouth or avrfreaks or something?
[20:19:26] <Tom_itx> it was on freaks early on but that was well over a year ago
[20:19:42] <Tom_itx> it's on my pages but that's about it
[20:20:28] <Tom_itx> another failed arduino needed one
[20:20:30] <andypugh> The one I am thinking of is several thin metal plates interleaved and V-shaped, so you get a rectangular crimp of arbitrary size.
[20:20:30] <Tom_itx> :)
[20:21:23] <jymmm> Tom_itx: you dislike them that much?
[20:22:07] <Tom_itx> dislike what?
[20:22:13] <jymmm> ardunio
[20:22:22] <Tom_itx> seems like the UNO has had it's share of problems
[20:22:32] <jymmm> oh, just the uno?
[20:22:48] <Tom_itx> it's got it's place but i'd rather see ppl learn c and program instead of just using someone's library
[20:23:20] <andypugh> You can do that too
[20:23:21] <Tom_itx> the uno used a small atmel usb chip to replace the FTDI chip for cost savings i think
[20:23:53] <jdhNC> why don't they just get two arduinos and use one to program?
[20:23:56] <Tom_itx> i forget which chip, i think it was the atmega8u2
[20:24:06] <andypugh> I semed to end up using direct register writes most of the time, so hardly even see.
[20:24:14] <jymmm> i thought they went with soft USB?
[20:24:18] <andypugh> Err, C
[20:24:34] <jdhNC> I know a guy that bought 20 bare atmega8u-somethings and has been trying to load a bootloader for a week.
[20:24:34] <Tom_itx> jymmm, it uses LUFA which uses hardware usb
[20:24:50] <jymmm> ah
[20:24:53] <Tom_itx> the 8u is too small
[20:24:57] <Tom_itx> for much of anything
[20:25:17] <Tom_itx> they modified lufa to fit on it for just the serial i think
[20:25:39] <jdhNC> https://picasaweb.google.com/112430417093824344570/HUDHolder?authkey=Gv1sRgCJuvm5LNuqSk1wE#5749241293779900258
[20:25:48] <jymmm> Oh, whats a local source for high temp (fiberglass) hookup wire?
[20:25:54] <jdhNC> that, and the next few pics are why it takes me forever to get to anything.
[20:26:34] <Tom_itx> that looks very organized
[20:26:35] <Connor> jdhNC: You have your own Scuba tank Cascade filling station ?
[20:26:49] <jdhNC> yep
[20:26:56] <jdhNC> and helium and oxygen
[20:27:12] <jymmm> jdhNC: Jsut open the valvle on a couple of those tanks and leave the soldering iton on high under a pile of oily rangs
[20:27:16] <jymmm> rags
[20:27:26] <jymmm> jdhNC: instant cleanup
[20:27:29] <Connor> You won't have any issues doing a drawbar on air.. just hook it up to the cascade.. you'll never hear the compressor run.
[20:28:03] <Connor> jdhNC: You going to post up some pictures of your G0704?
[20:28:04] <jymmm> jdhNC: and why so many tanks?
[20:28:07] <jdhNC> I fill the banks to 4200psi. Excessive for a drawbar
[20:28:19] <Connor> jdhNC: Just regulate it down.. :)
[20:28:37] <Connor> jymmm: So He can fill up scuba tanks quickly.
[20:28:44] <jymmm> ah
[20:28:44] <jdhNC> jymm: 4 helium, 4 oxygen, 8 air(kind of air anyway)
[20:28:48] <Connor> without having to wait for the compressor to build up to 3000+ PSI
[20:29:07] <jdhNC> compressor only does 6cfm.
[20:29:13] <jymmm> heh
[20:30:00] <jdhNC> I had 40-something scuba tanks too but sold some to pay for machine/parts
[20:30:18] <jymmm> and not one of them chained to the wall =)
[20:30:32] <Tom_itx> gotta have priorities
[20:30:48] <Tom_itx> jymmm is safety safety
[20:30:55] <Tom_itx> i bet he works for OSHA
[20:31:07] <jymmm> who?
[20:31:11] <Tom_itx> U
[20:31:40] <jymmm> 3000PSI missile in a can, no thanks.
[20:31:52] <Tom_itx> did you see that on mythbusters?
[20:31:58] <jymmm> no
[20:32:18] <Tom_itx> they stuck one in a tube and whacked the end off it
[20:32:27] <jdhNC> all the bottles are chained
[20:32:45] <jymmm> I saw the hole in the wall on my next shift
[20:33:26] <jymmm> damn certified forklift drivers!
[20:34:04] <jymmm> jdhNC: =)
[20:34:09] <Tom_itx> i saw the after affects of a drop hammer flywheel coming loose
[20:34:33] <jdhNC> that could hurt
[20:34:37] <jdhNC> connor:
https://picasaweb.google.com/112430417093824344570/HUDHolder?authkey=Gv1sRgCJuvm5LNuqSk1wE#5749241524526618914
[20:34:43] <jdhNC> and the following two
[20:38:05] <andypugh> That looks a _lot_ like mine.
[20:39:02] <andypugh> I would seriously consider adding a big lump of stuff to the back of the column.
[20:39:35] <Tom_itx> brace?
[20:39:41] <jdhNC> for vertical rigidity?
[20:40:01] <jdhNC> I/U beam up the back?
[20:40:17] <andypugh> Since I machined the slot between the dovetails to fit the internal ballscrew the torsional stiffness of the column has massively reduced
[20:40:46] <jdhNC> plate would fix that?
[20:41:06] <andypugh> Well, ideally a special casting, but a 1" strip of steel would be good too.
[20:41:27] <andypugh> plate where?
[20:41:59] <jdhNC> on the back. Make it like most of a torsion box
[20:42:20] <andypugh> Yes, that's what I am suggesting
[20:43:32] <andypugh> Original design, ballscrew at the back, full box column:
https://picasaweb.google.com/108164504656404380542/Gibbs#5398215426996934626
[20:44:57] <andypugh> https://picasaweb.google.com/108164504656404380542/Gibbs#5477167759873892978 and following, slot between the ways and internal screw. The reduction in torsional stiffness was upsetting.
[20:45:58] <Connor> What's the deal with that thin sheet?
[20:46:14] <andypugh> it keeps the swarf out of the slot
[20:46:41] <andypugh> But it "tunnels" through the head so it can be continous.
[20:46:50] <jdhNC> did you remove all the middle webbing?
[20:47:09] <andypugh> There was none
[20:47:34] <andypugh> Ah, unless you mean something other than what I am guessing you mean
[20:48:09] <andypugh> This is what it looks like now:
https://picasaweb.google.com/108164504656404380542/CNCUnsorted#5611904480713910226
[20:51:00] <andypugh> (3-phase motor, internal ballscrew, tilting head… I have spent a packet and lots of time and it is still a lump of Chinese junk (actually, possibly an Indian knock-off of chinese junk). So I am now working on
https://picasaweb.google.com/108164504656404380542/CNCUnsorted#5600023876027435058
[20:51:43] <andypugh> Which is a proper machine tool made in Yorkshire by folk who cared.
[20:53:12] <jdhNC> my chinese finished surfaces look ok. The rest of the castings look like crap.
[20:53:33] <jdhNC> but, that is a serious hunk of metal.
[20:54:19] <andypugh> Somebody spent a fair bit of time scraping the saddle of my lathe. Each way fit beautifully. They just don't both fit at the same time, they are skewed.
[21:05:02] <andypugh> Who speaks Makefile?
[21:05:19] <andypugh> I am fooling abut with RTNet.
[21:05:33] <andypugh> But is fails with the error at the end of
http://pastebin.com/PgXUxGi2
[21:06:17] <andypugh> My suspcion is that it was tested with Xenomia, not RTAI. But I might be completely off the mark
[21:19:04] <jdhNC> This? RT-extended kernel not found in $RTEXT_LINUX_DIR
[22:09:26] <jymmm> Can CL be ued to tell a stepper to turn to (let's say) 270degrees?
[22:09:29] <jymmm> used
[22:10:07] <jymmm> navigational compass wise
[22:35:38] <Tom_itx> CL?
[22:35:50] <jymmm> CL == Classic Ladder
[22:35:54] <Tom_itx> if you convert degrees to steps
[22:35:57] <Tom_itx> why not?
[22:36:05] <Tom_itx> think A axis
[22:38:08] <jymmm> I need to be able to say goto 90 ccw too as example.
[22:38:39] <jymmm> maybe a ardunio would be better for this, *shrug*
[22:39:00] <Tom_itx> how would you 'tell' it that?
[22:39:43] <jymmm> dont know, never used CL before, just inquiring about it's capabilities. If it can't even do it, no bother even trying.
[22:40:50] <Tom_itx> me either
[22:41:04] <Tom_itx> between software and hardware it can be done though
[22:42:22] <jymmm> that's every electronic/computer on the planet it can be done with =)
[22:42:34] <jymmm> plc, arduni, relay logic, etc =)
[22:43:47] <jymmm> Heck I could do it with MS-DOS if I tried hard enough
[22:44:22] <jymmm> But... What I CAN do and what I SHOULD do and not always the same =)
[22:50:07] <Tom_itx> try it with a state machine on ram
[22:50:24] <jymmm> "state machine" ?
[22:51:37] <Tom_itx> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_machine
[22:52:34] <jymmm> oh, heh.
[22:53:40] <Tom_itx> that _is_ what classic ladder is, isn't it?
[22:55:42] <Tom_itx> i've never really looked at it that close
