#linuxcnc | Logs for 2012-05-18

[01:33:18] <alex4nder> hey
[02:11:34] <DJ9DJ> moin
[04:19:19] <bostjan_2> Hello everyone. I have a question about camview, as i cant get axis values into camera window. I have installed camview, camunits yes, but i havent install camunits-plugins-emc as it wants to deinstall linuxcnc and install emc2.. How to solve it??
[04:21:12] <r00t4rd3d> i wonder if they have a github with the latest branch that isnt dependent on emc2
[04:21:40] <bostjan_2> Im not so familiar with linux, im learning..
[04:21:49] <r00t4rd3d> oh well nvm then :)
[04:23:44] <r00t4rd3d> im sure someone knows a simple work around
[04:27:56] <r00t4rd3d> you probably would not know the difference between emc2 or linuxcnc besides the name change anyway
[04:28:20] <r00t4rd3d> if your new
[04:33:22] <archivist> the package just probably does not know new name so install manually or edit package setup(dunno how one does that)
[04:40:16] <alex_joni> bostjan_2: still around?
[04:41:05] <bostjan_2> alex_joni: im here..
[04:41:30] <alex_joni> seems psha is aware of the issue (he built the camview package)
[04:42:16] <bostjan_2> i will wait..
[04:42:43] <bostjan_2> Otherwise, it is a excellent tool..
[04:42:47] <r00t4rd3d> http://code.google.com/p/camunits/downloads/list
[04:42:55] <r00t4rd3d> has not been updated since 2010
[04:45:15] <bostjan_2> camunits-plugins-emc is the package from Snaptic that i didnt install..
[05:21:38] <bostjan_2> Can maybie psha help me??
[05:39:45] <alex_joni> psha[work] might
[05:40:58] <psha[work]> ?
[05:48:02] <bostjan_2> Psha hello! Sorry to ask you, but im unable to install camview-plugins-emc on linuxcnc2.5, as it wants to install emc2...
[05:50:10] <r00t4rd3d> bostjan_2, its still early in the US
[05:50:23] <r00t4rd3d> 630 am eastern time
[05:50:50] <r00t4rd3d> not many alive at this point
[05:51:31] <r00t4rd3d> you got to wait 3-4 more hours
[05:52:03] <r00t4rd3d> post on the cnczone.com forums too
[05:53:15] <psha[work]> r00t4rd3d: i'm not in uS :)
[05:53:26] <psha[work]> bostjan_2: yea, fixed packages are on my todo list
[05:53:48] <psha[work]> as a quick workaround you may download package, unpack it and fix dep field in control file
[05:54:41] <alex_joni> dpkg -x = extract
[05:56:04] <bostjan_2> psha, where are you from ??
[05:56:51] <psha[work]> russia
[05:58:46] <bostjan_2> UFFF !!! fix dep field? dependency? in control file? what is the name of file??
[05:59:41] <bostjan_2> alex_joni: what means dpkg -x=extract
[06:01:26] <bostjan_2> r00t4rd3d: Behind us or in front of us?? ;)
[06:05:26] <psha[work]> hm, wait a bit
[06:07:57] <psha[work]> try http://psha.org.ru/tmp/camunits-plugins-emc-fixed.deb
[06:13:59] <bostjan_2> it has installed. So, now should i do other settings or there should be already labels in the camera window??
[06:14:51] <psha[work]> consult docs :)
[06:14:56] <psha[work]> i dont' remember
[06:17:43] <bostjan_2> Thanks psha!!
[06:17:47] <bostjan_2> I will..
[06:23:40] <skunkworks__> alex_joni: what was the issue you fixed with your hp color laserjet?
[06:33:31] <skunkworks__> (2605)
[06:35:28] * jthornton thinks I need to size nine boot the shop computer with all those nicks
[06:42:36] <skunkworks__> heh
[06:54:15] <alex_joni> skunkworks__: it started not printing magenta
[06:54:33] <alex_joni> inside the laser unit there's a mirror facing up which collects dust
[06:54:36] <alex_joni> bad design
[07:12:08] <skunkworks__> alex_joni: did you have directions? ours started printing a light blue ;)
[07:12:49] <skunkworks__> bbl
[07:41:20] <frallzor> ahoy hoy
[08:10:11] <Jymmm> http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2012/05/man-buys-out-local-k-mart-donates-everything-to-charity/1#.T7ZGd79qP1L
[08:11:12] <ScribbleJ> That'as fucked up
[08:11:57] <ScribbleJ> If you're going to donate $200k to charity there's probably much better ways than doing it by lining K-mart's pockets with money. I bet that place was full of stuff the charity didn't need or want.
[08:16:19] <frallzor> At least he knows what the money goes too
[08:16:29] <frallzor> I wouldnt trust any charity with 200k
[08:17:13] <Jymmm> I think I'd trust the Salvation Army with 200k
[08:17:30] <Jymmm> maybe United Way as well
[08:18:50] <frallzor> I would rather do good my own way with the money =)
[08:19:31] <Jymmm> frallzor: distillery?
[08:27:38] <frallzor> booze is a solution? =P
[08:28:00] <Jymmm> Well, could be, if it's a business.
[08:33:32] <Jymmm> frallzor: Almost all things of indulgence have been very profitable, ever during the worse of times.
[08:34:38] <Jymmm> boose has financed wars over the centuries, drugs, even chocolate was profitable during the depression
[11:17:36] <jdhNC> does anyone see a problem with drilling out mesa daughterboard holes to fit #6 bolts?
[11:19:15] <Jymmm> You would risk fubaring a pcb instead of getting smaller screws?
[11:19:26] <Tom_itx> not unless it got into the copper
[11:19:33] <Tom_itx> Jymmm sure
[11:19:54] <Tom_itx> jdhNC use 4-40
[11:20:30] <jdhNC> there is a lot of room around that hole
[11:20:46] <tom3p> 3.5" bay floppy (not usb ) not recognized on linuxcnc live cd install. is this common? not seen in lshw. tried 5 drives, 2cables, 2 computers
[11:20:48] <Tom_itx> how many inner layers would you screw up?
[11:21:09] <jdhNC> not likely any
[11:21:15] <jdhNC> but...
[11:21:32] <Tom_itx> i think it may void any hope of warranty
[11:21:40] <jdhNC> tom3p: do people still use those?
[11:21:56] <Jymmm> tom3p: Is it enabled in BIOS?
[11:22:11] <jdhNC> dmesg |grep fd ?
[11:22:57] <tom3p> yes in bios, yes still used ( primarily to move stuff off of them onto newer media )
[11:23:24] <tom3p> not found in dmesg ( outside of numeric xxxxfdxxxx addreses )
[11:24:08] <jdhNC> I'm making a plexi mounting plate for the 7i43/37/47 with a 1/8" end mill. Too big for 4-40. Guess I could just kiss those holes then hand drill
[11:25:03] <Jymmm> tom3p: Does it work in DOS or fro a LiveCD (maybe other than Linuxcnc, such as knoppix)
[11:25:39] <tom3p> Jymm, will try a live cd & no dos on these 2 boxes
[11:25:40] <Jymmm> other than ubuntu based primarily
[11:25:53] <Jymmm> tom3p: or DOS floppy
[11:26:40] <tom3p> i read that it was necc to "the floppy on Lucid works just fine provided you downgrade udisks from 1.0.1-1ubuntu1 to 1.01-1build1."
[11:27:39] <tom3p> Jymm, no dos floppys, trying to get rid of mac floppies and ST floppies ( both weirdo but tests are done with blank DS HiD sony disks )
[11:28:38] <Jymmm> tom3p: So you have no DOS formatted floppies at all? Not even one?
[11:30:10] <tom3p> correct, cant find one ( thers a chance that one of a few hundred ST floppies is MSDOS fmt, as it was one of a load of possible formats accepted )
[11:30:40] <tom3p> i could get an image and write it :) if i could get the drive recognized :)
[11:30:42] <jdhNC> when you reboot, does the floppy light come on and seek?
[11:31:28] <jdhNC> you can get a freedos usb boot image
[11:32:16] <tom3p> no i dont see that happen ( your right about that seek on boot thingy, i'll check if bios still has that as option) and no usb drive, these are real drives 2 heads
[11:33:18] <jdhNC> I mean you can burn a freedos image on a usb stick and boot that... see if the floppy is seen from there.
[11:33:55] <jdhNC> or, give up and toss the anachronistic floppies. (or get a USB one)
[11:34:28] <tom3p> ah, ok, unetbootlin to tjhe rescue, thx ( give up? not an option JWayne :)
[11:34:39] <Jymmm> usb fdd may not resolve anything
[11:35:17] <tom3p> i think jd said to boot a dos from a usb stick and see if the hdwr floppy was alive
[11:35:18] <Jymmm> fdd is dead simple, I'd check BIOS settings and version
[11:36:10] <Jymmm> Even if a mobo cmos was coruppted, a fdd STILL works for recovery, so check bios again
[11:36:22] <Jymmm> enabled, configured, legacy etc
[11:36:32] <tom3p> thats an interesting point, the lshw said the bios capabilities include int13floppy360,720,1200,2800 it skipped 1440 ! what i want
[11:37:22] <tom3p> will look more into bios, but im 'sure' it was enabled and even 1.4meg chosen
[11:37:25] <tom3p> thx
[11:37:30] <Jymmm> I'd reset the mobo cmos to compatability mode.
[11:37:51] <tom3p> good thought thx
[11:46:07] <Jymmm> tom3p: make sure the power is connected to the fdd too
[11:46:32] <tom3p> :) and the cable is on pin 1 to pin 1
[11:46:50] <Jymmm> tom3p: the ribbon cable?
[11:47:50] <Jymmm> tom3p: Drive A is the second connector, Drive B is the end connector. Make sure both are enabled in BIOS
[11:48:08] <Jymmm> tom3p: If the ribbon cable is reversed, the LED never turns off =)
[11:48:18] <jdhNC> and it destroys the floppy in the drive.
[11:48:31] <Jymmm> jdhNC: never
[11:48:52] <jdhNC> always did for me, haven't done it in 15+ years though.
[11:50:08] <Jymmm> I've never had that ever, and I still use 3.5 and have working 5.25 too =)
[11:50:39] <frallzoran> gosh! I'b bored to hell
[11:50:55] <frallzoran> dress me up and call me Alice
[11:51:02] <tom3p> right, rev cable is constant led, i remember some of this stuff, and the 4 pin power is keyed. i gotta ride back to the box and try some of this
[11:51:04] <jdhNC> hi alice, busy later?
[11:51:37] <Jymmm> frallzor: Fine, make me black powered that doesn't require an ATF permit =)
[11:57:04] <frallzor> finally!
[12:01:08] <tom3p> Jymm black powder DIY, any use? http://www.musketeer.ch/blackpowder/recipe.html
[12:02:02] <Jymmm> tom3p: I have to get around the use of "black powder" is the issue, as it's an "explosive"
[12:03:56] <tom3p> fwiw: "Pyrodex is the original BP substitute. It is essentially BP modified so it can be shipped and not classified as an explosive" http://www.curtrich.com/bpsubsdummies.html
[12:04:10] <Jymmm> tom3p: I just hae nfc on chemistry is all, I'm just assuming the lack of an oxidizer no longer makes it defined as "black powder"
[12:04:51] <tom3p> thx for all the help, i'll go try the advice now, good luck on the black powder
[12:05:12] <Jymmm> =)
[12:10:55] <Connor> jdhNC: Who did you say had NGCGUI files ?
[12:12:11] <jdhNC> someone else did.
[12:12:32] <jdhNC> I just said "someone here does", but I don't recall who.
[12:12:38] <Connor> oh
[12:12:57] <roycroft> so, assuming the motor ratings are appropriate for my mill (and if i install ball screws they will be), is this a good deal? :
[12:13:00] <roycroft> http://tinyurl.com/84zqkdt
[12:13:09] <roycroft> it seems like it to me
[12:13:20] <jdhNC> for an X3? I'd go bigger.
[12:13:26] <frallzor> really?
[12:13:29] <Connor> um No.
[12:13:33] <roycroft> with ball screws?
[12:13:57] <roycroft> folks talk about 270 oz/in motors for x3 conversions all the time
[12:14:02] <Connor> http://www.automationtechnologiesinc.com/products-page/stepper-nema23-3-axis-kits/cnc-stepper-motor-3-axis-kit-1
[12:14:18] <Connor> is what I'm using on my 704 - Direct Drive.
[12:14:44] <roycroft> those are some big motors
[12:14:55] <Connor> Yup. :)
[12:14:57] <IchGuckLive> the automotion ones have better performance and 300rpm the ones in the decko kit only 150 rpm at may tourch
[12:15:11] <jdhNC> I have some KL6050 drives I'll sell cheapish!
[12:15:14] <Connor> Oh. and yours doesn't have the PSU either.. that one I linked does.
[12:16:05] <Connor> roycroft: Check their other kits out too.. have a few smaller ones...
[12:16:09] * roycroft is still only 70% sure of what he wants/needs, but has money to start purchasing stuff now
[12:16:14] <jdhNC> http://www.automationtechnologiesinc.com/products-page/stepper-nema23-3-axis-kits/cnc-stepper-motor-3-axis-kit-4
[12:16:20] <roycroft> i want to be 100% sure soon :)
[12:16:47] <roycroft> i do want 4 axis capability from the get-go, even though i'll only be using 3 axes initially
[12:16:51] <Connor> I found that my Z can move pretty fast.. but, it's not Ball screws yet.
[12:17:04] <Connor> roycroft: That's just adding another driver..
[12:17:07] <roycroft> a rotary table is not too far in my future
[12:17:28] <roycroft> and i still haven't decided whether to go direct drive or offset the motors
[12:17:37] <jdhNC> I haven't done over 51IPM on my Z ballscrew yet. Still only have it hooked up to a tiny xylotex 24v driver
[12:17:43] <IchGuckLive> ofset via timebelt
[12:18:00] <roycroft> on the z i am pretty sure i want to offset, so i don't have to put a giant motor up there
[12:18:02] <Connor> I can't speak to the X3.. I did direct drive..
[12:18:21] <IchGuckLive> roycroft: try to go with 48V thats the best performance
[12:18:35] <roycroft> the x3 only has one handcrank on the x axis, so direct drive on the other end would be easy if i wanted to keep the ability to operate manually
[12:18:39] <Connor> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TF8mByQ3F-4
[12:18:43] <roycroft> y is the only real decision to make
[12:18:50] <jdhNC> the cncfusion x3 kit would be a good source of inspiration.
[12:18:52] <roycroft> yeah, i was planning on 48v
[12:19:05] <IchGuckLive> on my opinion if you got space do etch axis one driver as leadshine M542-M882
[12:19:34] <IchGuckLive> you will be upset with the gecko on 4Axis
[12:19:47] <roycroft> so the one area where i'm really in the dark still is the controller
[12:20:05] <Connor> the controller is a matched to the stepper.
[12:20:09] <roycroft> i have two candidate computers for operating the mill, and both have a lot of jitter
[12:20:16] <IchGuckLive> if you got money go for the mesa kit
[12:20:21] <Connor> oH, you mean the PC.
[12:20:24] <IchGuckLive> its 199USD
[12:20:35] <roycroft> no, i mean the motor controller
[12:20:57] <IchGuckLive> roycroft: IBM A50 is 50USD at 5000 Jitter
[12:20:59] <roycroft> someone here mentioned that a computer with a lot of jitter can still work if i use a more intelligent controller
[12:21:08] <Connor> okay, then yea.. the stepper drivers are matched to the stepper.. you need one that can handle the amps/volts for the stepper.
[12:21:10] <roycroft> and recommended the gecko
[12:21:23] <Connor> Umm. No.
[12:21:32] <Connor> I don't think the Gecko helps with that..
[12:21:50] <Connor> I know Mach3 uses something called a Smooth Stepper (USB based micro controller)
[12:21:55] <Connor> to "fix" that issue.
[12:22:00] <roycroft> well if that was bogus advise, or if i misinterpreted it, that would account for why i'm still utterly confused on that topic
[12:22:10] <IchGuckLive> this A50 is al over the place with 3Ghz and 1GB Ram 80GB HDD its the perfect ÜPC
[12:22:11] <Connor> I think MESA helps with that.
[12:22:32] <Connor> MESA generates the drive train pulses, thus, offloading that from the CPU.
[12:22:59] <Connor> Gecko != MESA . Gecko is parport driven.
[12:23:09] <roycroft> ok
[12:23:21] <Connor> although, it could be driven via MESA.. It's just the motor controllers..
[12:23:40] <Connor> parport uses a breakout board. (which btw, that kit I linked has one)
[12:24:06] <IchGuckLive> roy therfor we ask you to go for seperate parts in all part then you are free of futher changes
[12:24:20] <roycroft> do the breakout boards usually use optoisolators?
[12:24:30] <roycroft> if not, is it advisable to get one that does?
[12:24:32] <IchGuckLive> roycroft: yes
[12:24:46] <Connor> roycroft: Typically yes.. They're a FEW that are just basic Break outs..
[12:25:01] <roycroft> i know that bobs are not alwasy necessary
[12:25:12] <IchGuckLive> the signal goes PCI->parport->74HC14->opto1->opto2
[12:25:18] <Connor> C10 is the place to start.
[12:25:18] <roycroft> but if they use optoisolators that's reason enough to use one
[12:25:31] <IchGuckLive> in mesa its cust pci -> driver
[12:25:46] * roycroft is looking at the mesa website now
[12:26:05] <IchGuckLive> roy 5i25+7i76
[12:26:17] <IchGuckLive> there is a kit
[12:26:36] <IchGuckLive> anything io dautercards
[12:26:54] <Connor> IchGuckLive: Isn't that a bit over kill for a 3 or 4 axis stepper setup? If he was doing servo's I could see it..
[12:27:28] <Connor> My little $180.00 ATOM PC with BOB has more than enough umph to handle the job.
[12:27:30] <IchGuckLive> agree but he wants to build a precise and steploas one
[12:28:34] <Connor> what website for mesa ?
[12:28:41] <Connor> I've not even looked into them..
[12:28:54] <IchGuckLive> as he builds his first Router he is in a go/nogo part
[12:29:42] <IchGuckLive> for a chees on pcb it woudt be ZEN TB6560 and all is done by 36Dollar it works fine
[12:30:12] <IchGuckLive> 3 steppers from Epson at 2,1Nm for 12USD each
[12:30:15] <Connor> Oh god no. those things stink.
[12:30:29] <IchGuckLive> as you say
[12:30:35] <IchGuckLive> it works
[12:30:46] <Connor> I have one I'm using for my router.. I had to do some component level modifications to get it to work nice.
[12:30:52] <roycroft> to clarify, i've moved from building a router to doing a cnc retrofit on my x3 mill
[12:31:09] <IchGuckLive> my 5Axis foam http://mechmo.de/styrocut.html runs on this
[12:31:35] <IchGuckLive> cheep and for foam its so cool
[12:31:58] <roycroft> and i haven't had time to diagnose the jitter problems i'm having
[12:32:10] <IchGuckLive> tiny case 250x250x96mm all fits in
[12:32:32] <roycroft> the machine i prefer to use is a 1u server, dual xeon 2.8GHz, 4GB of ram, and some kind of ati framebuffer
[12:32:55] <Connor> dual core not going to do anything for you.
[12:33:07] <roycroft> it's what it is
[12:33:24] <roycroft> i'm not saying i'll need nor even use all the capability of the machine
[12:33:33] <IchGuckLive> roycroft: what jitter you got
[12:33:36] <roycroft> just pointing out that the hardware specs are such that it should work
[12:33:42] <roycroft> i don't recall, but it was really high
[12:33:48] <roycroft> it's been a couple weeks since i ran a jitter test
[12:33:54] <roycroft> i'll do so again when i'm at home
[12:33:59] <roycroft> 350k or so, perhaps
[12:34:00] <Connor> turn off hyper threading.
[12:34:04] <roycroft> that number comes to mind
[12:34:14] <Connor> turn off wake on lan.
[12:34:21] <Connor> turn off power management crap.
[12:34:25] <roycroft> yeah, i haven't done any of that stuff
[12:34:27] <IchGuckLive> i think you can manage below 50k for shure
[12:34:32] <djdelorie> dual core lets you run RTAI on one core, and everything else on the other
[12:34:54] <roycroft> the machine also doesn't have a parallel port, but there is one expansion slot
[12:35:02] <roycroft> so i can add what i need to add
[12:35:06] <Connor> roycroft: That's better anyway.
[12:35:19] <roycroft> i have a 19" rack cabinet that's about a meter high
[12:35:21] <Connor> use cheap parport expansion card.
[12:35:33] <roycroft> i want to house the computer, power supplies, and controller in that
[12:35:42] <roycroft> and still have some room to store tooling, etc.
[12:36:03] <roycroft> and that's why i prefer to use that particular machine
[12:36:06] <Connor> http://www.ivdc.com/cnc/conversion/enclosure.JPG
[12:36:18] <roycroft> plus, i have about a dozen of those machines, so if it dies it would be easy to replace
[12:36:29] <roycroft> the main drawback is that it's pata only - no sata
[12:36:29] <Connor> My enclosure. Have room for 3 more drivers.. can stack the BOB's on top.. and have the drive bays too if I need them.
[12:36:35] <jdhNC> I got a 20x20 enclosure I was hoping to also put the computer in, but I don't think it will fit.
[12:36:42] <roycroft> but my thought was to get a 64GB pata ssd for it
[12:36:55] <Connor> Mines got a 60Db SATA.
[12:36:59] <Connor> SSD.
[12:37:42] <roycroft> i'll put some casters on the rack cabinet
[12:37:57] <IchGuckLive> Connoris this the atom ?
[12:38:01] <roycroft> make it easy to move around
[12:38:06] <Connor> IchGuckLive: Yea
[12:38:26] <Connor> Mini-ITX in a standard ATX 4U rackmount case.
[12:40:18] <IchGuckLive> BOB come from automation ?
[12:40:22] <Connor> Were do people in US buy their MESA from ?
[12:40:39] <Connor> IchGuckLive: That's were I got it.. but, it's the C10 from CNC4PC.com
[12:40:52] <andypugh> Connor: Buy direct from Mesa.
[12:41:02] <Connor> mesanet.com ?
[12:41:07] <andypugh> Yes
[12:41:14] <Connor> The website looks like it's from the 90's
[12:41:19] <IchGuckLive> Connorpcw is here in the forum
[12:41:22] <jdhNC> indeed.
[12:41:36] <andypugh> Yeah, and you need to use the phone number to order. Very quaint.
[12:41:37] <jdhNC> Connor: hit them up for some free product for a decent site.
[12:41:54] <jdhNC> I don't think 'we' are their target market.
[12:42:02] <andypugh> I don't know why they don't list on eBay / Amazon
[12:42:15] <jdhNC> amazon would be easy
[12:42:15] <Connor> Who else uses them ?
[12:42:24] <andypugh> LinuxCNC is about 10% of their market, I believe.
[12:42:48] <jdhNC> have to raise prices to make up for amazon$, but I'd pay a few $ more to be able to order spontaneously
[12:43:14] <IchGuckLive> jdhNC: agree
[12:43:31] <IchGuckLive> i need to order over the US forces from germany to get the part
[12:43:53] <andypugh> IchGuckLive: There is a shop in germany that sells them.
[12:44:00] <andypugh> Or is it Austria?
[12:44:23] <IchGuckLive> austria but double the price
[12:44:24] <jdhNC> or you could just buy 5 of each good item for the bulk discount price and ebay the rest.
[12:45:05] <andypugh> Also cz, for pretty much the Mesa price: http://www.duzi.cz/shop_cnc/index.php?main_page=index&language=cz
[12:45:24] <roycroft> my gf sells her books on amazon
[12:45:28] <roycroft> they take 60% of gross
[12:45:32] <roycroft> it's obscene
[12:46:15] <roycroft> they handle the orders directly, though
[12:46:18] <andypugh> IchGuckLive: I think the retrofit-plus.at price is about the same after import duties and taxes are considerd.
[12:46:29] <roycroft> i don't know what their take is if she processed individual orders
[12:47:16] <IchGuckLive> andypugh: not to germany
[12:47:37] <andypugh> You don't need to pay import duties from the US to DE?
[12:47:51] <IchGuckLive> 65%
[12:48:19] <jdhNC> I need some 50pin cables, or at least connectors.
[12:48:31] <ReadError> roycroft: they publish it too?
[12:48:33] <andypugh> There should be no import duty inside the EU, so that makes the retrofit / duzi prices look OK, I think.
[12:49:06] <IchGuckLive> 38% from austria
[12:49:22] <IchGuckLive> if you are over 25USD
[12:50:01] <andypugh> Ah. Well, it's only a short drive to .at or .cz
[12:50:22] <IchGuckLive> yes i did that on LIPO
[12:52:11] <Connor> jdhNC: Old SCSI cables. :)
[12:53:32] <IchGuckLive> roycroft: you will get a nice and good mill
[12:53:55] <IchGuckLive> B) :D O.O
[12:55:01] * frallzor updates his DIY wishlist with a vacuum former
[12:55:13] <andypugh> IchGuckLive: retrofit-plus prices seem to include VAT, whereas duzi seems not to.
[12:55:26] <IchGuckLive> nice frallzor
[12:55:53] <frallzor> gotta have one of those =)
[12:55:55] <IchGuckLive> the material below the carpet is best for this doing and cheep also
[12:56:49] <jdhNC> connor: I have some long ones, I need a few that are only a couple inches long.
[12:57:27] <IchGuckLive> frallzor: http://www.ebay.de/sch/i.html?_nkw=vacuum+former
[12:58:49] <frallzor> a wee bit on the small side considering what I had in mind =)
[13:01:47] <IchGuckLive> frallzor: here is the wish to build in pictures http://www.rcf-marienheide.de/frames.html?/mod_techniken/tiefziehen.html
[13:03:42] <IchGuckLive> kingston vacuform USA
[13:05:24] <Tom_itx> how about a 17' canoe vacuum form?
[13:05:50] <frallzor> that would be a bit too large for me =P
[13:07:16] <IchGuckLive> best part is to mill the wood block
[13:07:41] <IchGuckLive> or go for silikat necuron 800
[13:07:52] <IchGuckLive> this speeds up the miling
[13:09:05] <frallzor> is that like cibatool?
[13:09:40] <frallzor> polyurethane board
[13:10:08] <IchGuckLive> yes
[13:10:58] <IchGuckLive> frallzor: goggle picture Necuron
[13:11:34] <frallzor> seems like what I use for models, the version I get "locally" is called renshape
[13:12:02] <IchGuckLive> it has many names around the world
[13:12:07] <frallzor> yup
[13:12:28] <frallzor> I currently have Necuron 480
[13:12:33] <frallzor> pretty nice
[13:12:35] <IchGuckLive> cheek 5USD per KG
[13:13:01] <andypugh> Wax is re-usable: http://www.techsoft.co.uk/products/materials/milling-routing/modelling-wax.asp
[13:13:46] <IchGuckLive> andypugh: for premolding the best
[13:13:58] <IchGuckLive> but you need a postiv part
[13:14:51] <IchGuckLive> then fill in the tooth doctors material
[13:14:56] <andypugh> That link was to machinable wax.
[13:15:10] <frallzor> at one time in my life I bought a few kilos of kolb modelling clay, wonder when I'll use it =P
[13:15:46] <IchGuckLive> it might be hard as steel as you turn the case
[13:16:15] <frallzor> at least it wont get old since its oilbased =)
[13:16:22] <IchGuckLive> or pouder dry to get mixed befor use
[13:17:59] <Connor> Tom_itx: I built my own little vacuum former.. it's small.
[13:18:31] <IchGuckLive> Connor and make money at the local RC dealer
[13:20:39] <Connor> Not big enough for RC chassis.. It's only big enough to do around 8.5" x 11" little bit bigger..
[13:20:57] <Connor> I could do canopy's for airplanes..
[13:21:20] <IchGuckLive> thats what the money comes in
[13:21:24] <frallzor> maybe molds for medium sized latex sextoys too?
[13:21:56] <IchGuckLive> frallzor: factory store and testing O.O
[13:22:11] <Connor> frallzor: Umm No.
[13:22:16] <frallzor> =(
[13:23:02] <Connor> Yea, The idea was to use the router to make bucks/forms for the vacuum former..
[13:23:09] <IchGuckLive> frallzor: this maret is spamt all over the USA
[13:23:10] <Connor> for my roubots
[13:23:46] <IchGuckLive> let them look a bit spacy
[13:23:54] <Connor> robots...
[13:24:05] <IchGuckLive> Nerds like that shine
[13:26:12] <IchGuckLive> ok im off by
[13:37:18] <frallzor> bah I need to make something now just to try the PP JT-Shop helped me with
[13:45:47] <Connor> JT-Shop: You around ?
[13:47:39] <Connor> and can anyone give a little more explanation on G76 in regards to the Drive line and Thread peak and touching off appropriately..
[13:48:00] <Connor> Say, I wanna do a 1/4"-20 thread..
[13:49:28] <mrsun> hmm, my "axises" on the lathe moves when i do deep cuts, can this be corrected by just tightening the gibs? :)
[13:53:15] <andypugh> Connor: I am never sure how to touch-off for a thread, as the thread peaks are always below nominal diameter, but the tool has a radius too.
[13:54:00] <andypugh> I always seem to end up re-cutting the thread with steadily increasing depth until it works..
[13:54:35] <Connor> You would think you could touch off on the nominal diameter and go from there..
[13:54:36] <andypugh> You probably need to draw an accurate picture of the thread, allowing for rounding and fit.
[13:57:09] <archivist> Connor, the example g76 is a 1/4 20 thread
[13:57:41] <archivist> but it gouges a bit needs smaller infeed steps
[14:03:09] <archivist> I did a nice blind internal thread the other week, same as andy re run with increasing depth till it fitted
[14:04:49] <archivist> the part that is unnerving for a user used to manual threading is the lack of safety groove need
[14:05:29] <ds3> wow... internal blind threading?!
[14:05:42] <ds3> how many threading tools was used?
[14:06:53] <archivist> only one
[14:07:14] <ds3> what size/pitch?
[14:07:43] <archivist> 11 tpi 3/4bsp parallel
[14:08:05] <ds3> nice
[14:08:08] <frallzor> I love my CAM-software, claims there is a tool clash when just pluning the tool
[14:08:13] <frallzor> it fools me
[14:08:15] <ds3> it is unnerving enough doing external threads
[14:09:12] <archivist> I was cutting air modding the code to get it deeper then adjusting the dia ,rinse repeat
[14:19:10] <archivist> ds3, http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DJCPD/PD/2012/2012_05_06_Leawood/IMG_1240.JPG
[14:20:07] <andypugh> You know you can buy union nuts?
[14:21:01] <archivist> this is for the 1900's pipe work so wanted it to match ish
[14:21:05] <ds3> you got chuck jaw marks
[14:21:06] <ds3> ;)
[14:22:16] <archivist> I used some brass that already was marked, I held it on a boss that I parted off
[14:22:42] <ds3> regardless, the internal threads are quite impressive
[14:23:26] <archivist> I was rather happy with the threading, specially as it is on a tiny starturn lathe
[14:24:38] <ds3> that's from the same folks who make the Orac, right?
[14:24:55] <archivist> yes
[14:25:21] <ds3> what's your technique? snap both the half nut and the cross feed or sudden reversal of the spindle?
[14:25:34] <andypugh> CNC...
[14:25:45] <ds3> CNC is cheating :P
[14:25:47] <archivist> sit back and watch :)
[14:25:57] <ds3> oh... thought it was manual
[14:25:59] <ds3> nevermind :P
[14:26:13] <ds3> no point in a safety groove for CNC
[14:26:48] <andypugh> I think you want #linuxmanualmachining
[14:26:54] <archivist> I use safety grooves on the Sothbend
[14:27:05] <archivist> Southbeng
[14:27:15] <andypugh> 3rd time lucky?
[14:27:39] <ds3> depending on the conversion, some CNC lathes can be operated in pure manual mode. esp if it lacks an encoded spindle
[14:27:40] <archivist> Southbend third time lucky (wait for me to manage to spell that too)
[14:31:29] <andypugh> Oh, what a pain. It turns out that if you a) have a sserial config and b) have more than 1 port and c) have more than one autoconf card on the second port then it doesn't work properly. Clearly my testing wasn't exhaustive enough.
[14:34:42] <mrsun> if i would replace the leadscrew on my lathe which has to have the 100/127 gear to do metric thread with a metric leadscrew of pitch 2mm, could i just remove the 127/100 gear and use the geartrain without it then ? :)
[14:36:11] <archivist> may need to get some gears to get the pitches you need
[14:36:14] <andypugh> Yes. But it would be more sensible to either CNC it, or replace the geartrain with encoder + stepper and do the gearing electronically.
[14:36:53] <tjb1> Is it normal for tungsten to burn away at a higher amperage
[14:37:50] <andypugh> TIG?
[14:38:00] <tjb1> yep
[14:38:17] <tjb1> just got it, gonna go find out what size the tungsten is but I think I need a bigger, its burning it away around 130 amps
[14:38:19] <archivist> do you have the correct gas amount
[14:38:23] <andypugh> I think it probably means the tungsten is too small for the current.
[14:38:25] <tjb1> 17 cfm
[14:38:40] <tjb1> pure argon
[14:39:06] <mrsun> andypugh, yeah im thinking of the encoder/stepper combo
[14:39:11] <mrsun> but requires yet another computer :/
[14:39:24] <mrsun> i guess there is no firmware for somehing like arduino to do it? =)
[14:39:38] <andypugh> Not necessarily a computer. Maybe an Arduino or similar.
[14:40:30] <mrsun> yeah but requires some linear interpolation etc for stepping between encoder pulses also if moving fast etc? :)
[14:40:38] <tjb1> its 3/32 tungsten
[14:40:38] <tjb1> red
[14:41:00] <tjb1> lincoln manual says 3/32 can handle max amperage on DC -
[14:41:32] <andypugh> mrsun: http://www.autoartisans.com/ELS/
[14:41:34] <mrsun> and how would it work to engage at the right place etc for the half nut when using that insted? :)
[14:42:30] <tjb1> can you use 1/8 tungsten on DC -? manual just has an X in the amperage column
[14:43:10] <Connor> safety groove ?
[14:44:14] <archivist> Connor, when manual threading one leave a groove for the threading tool at the end of the thread where you drop the leadscrew nut
[14:44:40] <Connor> oh. ok
[14:45:31] <tjb1> Anyone got an idea on the tig issue?
[14:47:17] <roycroft> what tig issue?
[14:47:17] <andypugh> tjb1: Is red tungsten right for the job?
[14:47:31] <tjb1> 2% thoriated
[14:48:46] <roycroft> what are you welding, tjb1?
[14:48:57] <tjb1> 3/16 steel pipe
[14:49:19] <tjb1> Im waiting on chem sharp to get here, could grinding it with an abrasive wheel be the problem?
[14:49:27] <tjb1> Was just excited to try it out...
[14:51:06] <roycroft> i use lanthanated electrodes for steel, myself
[14:51:24] <roycroft> a 1.5% lanthanated electrode is supposed to have similar characteristics to 2% thoriated
[14:52:45] <tjb1> this is just what came with it
[14:53:03] <tjb1> I'm gonna go get a 1/8 tungsten
[14:53:11] <roycroft> if you're using a grinding wheel that is used for other things besides your electrodes you are probably contaminating the electrodes
[14:53:20] <tjb1> yeah
[14:53:30] <tjb1> I couldn't wait for chem sharp :)
[14:53:31] <roycroft> i got a circular saw sharpener at hf on sale for like $25
[14:53:39] <roycroft> it comes with a disc that is diamon-encrusted
[14:53:42] <roycroft> diamond
[14:53:48] <roycroft> i took off the blade holding jig and all that crap
[14:53:59] <roycroft> and made a little jig to hold an electrode
[14:54:07] <tjb1> The dedicated sharpeners are ridiculously expensive
[14:54:09] <roycroft> i use it exclusively for tig electrodes
[14:54:32] <tjb1> so contamination is most likely the issue?
[14:54:41] <roycroft> http://www.harborfreight.com/120-volt-circular-saw-blade-sharpener-96687.html
[14:54:44] <roycroft> that's what i have
[14:54:54] <roycroft> although i know i paid less than that
[14:55:08] <roycroft> i probably had a 20% off coupon to put on top of some kind of super sale price
[14:55:29] <roycroft> you should be able to make an electrode-holding jig in an hour or less for that
[14:55:41] <tjb1> I'm an hour from hf
[14:55:47] <tjb1> see how the chem sharp works first
[14:55:49] <roycroft> and i hope you're not grinding the things radially
[14:55:56] <tjb1> no, straight
[14:55:57] <JT-Shop> lol
[14:56:16] <roycroft> i would suspect contamination of the elecrode
[14:56:57] <tjb1> alright well i gotta head out, this damn place closes at 4:30...
[14:57:02] <tjb1> thanks everyone
[15:23:08] <DJ9DJ> gn8
[15:27:32] * frallzor is still quite bored to death
[15:27:42] <alex4nder> frallzor: how could you be
[15:28:10] <frallzor> How cant i
[15:28:15] <frallzor> *I even
[15:28:17] <djdelorie> frallzor: download the 80/20 catalog and design a web app to build 80/20 orders for custom-sized cnc tables :-)
[15:28:30] <alex4nder> djdelorie: yes
[15:28:34] <frallzor> thats your project ;) not mine
[15:28:38] <alex4nder> or fuck, just build me a webapp to design 80/20
[15:28:42] <alex4nder> period
[15:28:43] <djdelorie> you're bored, I'm swamped :-)
[15:28:44] <alex4nder> with a price quoter
[15:28:48] <frallzor> I was about to make a vacuum former
[15:28:49] <alex4nder> and BoM generator
[15:28:57] <alex4nder> and I'd like to be able to just order direct
[15:29:05] <frallzor> but realized the issues that allways seems to appear, no material
[15:35:53] <whaat> If understood right, to replace parallel port motion driver with a custom usb one have to replace emcmot process. But that seems like reinventing the wheel. Is there a way to get emcmot to provide plain position, velocity and accel interface for writing a custom controller driver ? Sorry if asked something already documented, but didnt find such a convenient interface on any of the documentation
[15:36:35] <alex4nder> whaat: yah, modify emcmot
[15:37:05] <alex4nder> the "problem" with the current arch is that emcmot needs to have a low-latency link with the motion control
[15:37:06] <djdelorie> the problem with usb is that emc is more precise than the usb protocol allows
[15:37:14] <andypugh> EMC motion assumes realtime. USB doen't do realtime
[15:37:21] <alex4nder> specifically, quick turnaround.
[15:37:47] <cradek> now look, you scared pcw away
[15:37:50] <alex4nder> hah
[15:38:10] <alex4nder> I'm curious, has anyone written any isochronous USB jitter benchmarking tools for Linux?
[15:38:25] <alex4nder> (obviously requiring a 'loop-back' USB device)
[15:38:28] <whaat> Usb controller takes care of all poisoning and timing, so the new emcmot wouldn't even need realtime
[15:39:06] <cradek> whaat: you might want to dig in the mailing list archives. a thousand people have talked about this and a few have even tried it.
[15:39:13] <djdelorie> whaat: it's like trying to control a cnc machine by US post office letters. You never know when the STOP!STOP!STOP! command will get there.
[15:39:39] <alex4nder> whaat: well then you don't even really want emcmot.. you just want the g-code parser right?
[15:39:41] <cradek> it turns out you have to reinvent a lot more wheel than you first expect, and that way lies extreme suckage
[15:39:51] <alex4nder> and the UI
[15:40:23] <andypugh> Instead of USB, look at the Ethernet port
[15:40:24] <alex4nder> what you get from emcmot (and friends) are the kins, joints, axes, etc.
[15:40:28] <whaat> Stop sWitch is also tied to the hardware . Will try searching the mailing list,
[15:40:37] <djdelorie> based on the archives, though, the real-time thread "just" interprets the generated path, yes? couldn't the path be streamed to the usb device, just like it's currently streamed to the realtime threads?
[15:40:39] <alex4nder> if you don't need those things, you don't need the emc motion control.
[15:40:43] <archivist> alex4nder, dont think anyone has dared play with the isochronous mode yet
[15:41:01] <djdelorie> whaat: you may substutite GO!GO! or LEFT!RIGHT! if you want to be pedantic
[15:41:01] <alex4nder> archivist: gotcha
[15:41:56] <cradek> djdelorie: sure you could "just" queue it up for a second or so, but that delay will cost you probing, index homing, spindle synchronized motion, adaptive feed, immediate aborts and feed override changes, etc.
[15:42:13] <archivist> alex4nder, will need some level of technical toys to test and the ability to stop any new device causing a latency glitch
[15:42:13] <whaat> Actually controller isn't that smart, just handles moving and homing. Acceleration for example needs still to be calculated on pc
[15:42:20] <djdelorie> ah, there's a lot more bypassing the queue than I realized
[15:42:22] <alex4nder> archivist: yah, I have those toys.
[15:42:41] <cradek> there is no queue, all of the motion planner runs in realtime
[15:42:44] <skunkworks> so then you move that to hardware... And then you move some more to hardware.. THen you have linuxcnc in the hardware and should have just kept it in the computer ;)
[15:42:52] <archivist> alex4nder, I have some toys too, but not the time/finance
[15:44:07] <alex4nder> skunkworks: or you just make linuxcnc's architecture able to target alternate RTOSes on uCs, including dynamic comp loading, etc.
[15:44:16] <alex4nder> and at that point, it's not really linuxcnc
[15:44:22] <alex4nder> it's *cnc
[15:44:25] <whaat> Ic, so there is realtime feedback needed from the controller
[15:45:10] <djdelorie> alex4nder: no, just target linux on other uCs like embedded arm :-)
[15:45:25] <archivist> whaat, the controller is IN the pc and realtime feed back is from outside for servo systems
[15:45:39] <djdelorie> archivist: except for me :-)
[15:45:41] <andypugh> It _has_ been done. There is at least one machine out there using a Mesa 7i43 on the USB port.
[15:46:16] <cradek> yes and they lost all those things I listed above, and I think are bravely trying to reimplement them one at a time
[15:46:34] <alex4nder> djdelorie: that's fine, but you don't get the 600 nS context switch times.. but I'n conceded that's mostly bragging rights.
[15:46:51] * djdelorie wonders if usb480 is any better, or usb3, jitter-wise
[15:47:11] <whaat> Saw something about that mesa controller, but though it was just an usb breakout board
[15:47:12] <djdelorie> alex4nder: embedded arm is up to 1.5 GHz, on part with an intel Atom
[15:48:01] <andypugh> whaat: No, the Mesa boards move step generation and encoder counting etc into hardware.
[15:48:13] <alex4nder> djdelorie: sure,. I'm an embedded ARM kernel developer. :) but no current common RT Linux kernel will see context switches anywhere near a stripped down RTOS on a shitty little Cortex-M4.
[15:48:40] <djdelorie> well, yeah, but if you want linuxcnc "as is" with the GUI et al...
[15:48:41] <andypugh> But for LinuxCNC use the Mesa board need to be on the PCI bus or the parallel port
[15:48:45] <alex4nder> yah
[15:49:26] <alex4nder> djdelorie: but if you change the LinuxCNC arch slightly, and support offloading motion to your uCs running emcmot, you now have scalable axes support with hardware step generation, or servo control.
[15:49:32] <andypugh> whaat: Do you want a CNC machine, or an interesting USB project?
[15:49:43] <cradek> or an albatross
[15:49:46] <alex4nder> yah
[15:50:00] <alex4nder> focus on actually getting your mill working. :/
[15:50:10] <djdelorie> alex4nder: you're talking to someone who has six MCUs, one running Linux, controlling his *furnace*
[15:50:31] <cradek> ha wow
[15:50:33] <alex4nder> djdelorie: exactly, which is why I feel like I'm preaching to the choir. ;)
[15:50:38] <alex4nder> but my point stands
[15:50:41] <frallzoran> machine > computer > software my five cents =)
[15:50:47] <djdelorie> but yeah, next up (when time permits) is redoing the inner control loops in the servo controller
[15:50:56] * archivist trusts djdelorie to do whatever he want in software
[15:51:07] <djdelorie> if I can get those nailed down, everything else should just fall into place
[15:51:15] <alex4nder> djdelorie: oh look, you have a a fan club. ;)
[15:51:36] <djdelorie> heh. Reminds me of when I helped out the local FIRST team. "Build it however it works, we'll compensate in software."
[15:51:41] <whaat> Actually have already the usb controller, just was hoping to be able to connect it to emc2 instead of meeding a proprietary gcode interpreter for it
[15:51:59] <alex4nder> the USB controller is the least of your worries
[15:52:04] <alex4nder> get your machine working with a parallel port.
[15:52:13] <archivist> or most :)
[15:52:20] <alex4nder> haha
[15:52:22] <whaat> Sorry for the typos, am on a phone
[15:52:31] <alex4nder> whaat: where do you live?
[15:52:50] <whaat> Spain, why?
[15:52:56] <alex4nder> oh, well then shipping would be expensive
[15:53:07] <alex4nder> I have my first LinuxCNC machine that I want to give to someone local to me.
[15:53:18] <alex4nder> (it's a piece of shit, only useful in a pinch)
[15:53:38] <djdelorie> what's "local" to you?
[15:53:41] <andypugh> I feel the same about mine. But I reckon it would fetch £2000 on eBay.
[15:53:56] <whaat> Ic, thx anyways for the thought
[15:53:57] <alex4nder> djdelorie: 80 mile radius of santa barbara
[15:54:55] <andypugh> alex4nder: I wonder if Mesa could use it as a test mule?
[15:55:05] <PCW> andypugh: sorry I disappeared. set something on the keyboard and Windows shut down (didn't even ask if I really meant it)
[15:55:13] <fragalot> guys I've got a lil' question
[15:55:13] <alex4nder> andypugh: oh, I doubt it.. they have better hardware I'm sure
[15:55:34] <fragalot> i'm thinking of upgrading my spindle on my sable 2015 to either a kress 1050, or one of those chinese 1.5kW ER11 spindles
[15:55:46] <fragalot> both seem to work down to the same price, but the chinese one is a LOT more quiet...
[15:55:50] <fragalot> do you think I should risk it?
[15:56:17] <alex4nder> find a seller that is highly reviewed, especially one that will send you a video of it working before they mail it to you
[15:56:32] <archivist> fragalot, ask Loetmichel
[15:57:05] <fragalot> Loetmichel: kress 1050 vs chinese 1.5kW air cooled ER11 spindle .. Which one would you pick? i'm leaning towards the chinese one atm because of the low noise
[15:57:33] <andypugh> Are there any ER16?
[15:57:58] <frallzoran> choose after what you want to machine in the end
[15:58:06] <fragalot> yes there are
[15:58:09] <frallzoran> I wish I hade a kress too for Alu
[15:58:11] <frallzoran> *had
[15:58:23] <fragalot> frallzoran: generally PCB's but sometimes alu & brass
[15:59:08] <frallzoran> Go for a Suhner if you go the "kress route"
[15:59:25] <JT-Shop> dang it only took me 30 minutes to tie a surgens knot in this 0.007" diameter tippet
[15:59:30] <fragalot> frallzoran: I like the low-noise and external freq. control of the chinese one though
[16:00:01] <fragalot> the chinese one has a .02mm runout (wobble) on the collet though, not sure what the specs on the kress are on that regard
[16:01:42] <andypugh> Interesting: http://www.ebay.com/itm/220638581883 devices to screw on to an ER16 nose to hold bigger things.
[16:02:06] <fragalot> :D
[16:02:15] <fragalot> tbf I only said ER11 because I had no idea that was the collet size
[16:02:18] <andypugh> .02mm isn't a lot
[16:02:27] <fragalot> andypugh: indeed it isn't
[16:02:49] <fragalot> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1xu8xibI3w
[16:02:50] <frallzoran> It can be
[16:02:52] <fragalot> seems to run fairly quiet
[16:02:53] <roycroft> i'd like an r8 spindle with a belt-driven motor
[16:02:57] <frallzoran> but probably not
[16:03:10] <andypugh> r8 is too long.
[16:03:14] <roycroft> so i can use the main mill spindle to mount it, and not have to do some funky offset thing
[16:03:41] <roycroft> or a hs spindle that can fit in a standard collet, like a 1" collet
[16:04:31] <frallzoran> I think my spindles uses ER20 collets
[16:04:38] <frallzoran> *spindle even
[16:04:42] <fragalot> what does your average kress 1050 use?
[16:04:48] <fragalot> because I already have a few collets for that anyway :P
[16:04:54] <fragalot> (I just forgot the size)
[16:06:55] <roycroft> i saw a project where someone made an r8 mount for a webcam, and used that to line up pcbs, but still had the hs spindle mounted off the side of the mill head
[16:07:08] <roycroft> so there was still some compensation that needed to be done
[16:07:24] <roycroft> it would be neat to mount the webcam, line things up, then swap the hs spindle in and go
[16:07:43] <alex4nder> roycroft: how do they compensate for the offset.. lensing?
[16:07:47] <alex4nder> with some digital shift?
[16:07:56] <roycroft> yeah, with a digital shift
[16:07:57] <andypugh> tool-table offset
[16:08:15] <andypugh> I have plans to make a BT30 webcam.
[16:08:26] <alex4nder> andypugh: well you have the lensing effect, it's not a straight linear offset.
[16:08:45] <alex4nder> I guess it could be so minor.
[16:09:05] <andypugh> It _ought_ to be a straight linear offset.
[16:09:45] * fragalot thinks he's going to go for the chinese spindle
[16:09:48] <andypugh> What do you mean by "lensing effect"
[16:10:11] <andypugh> fragalot: I think that using the right tool for the job is wise, and those are.
[16:10:28] <frallzoran> my spindle sounds like a 747 revving up
[16:10:54] <archivist> alex4nder, you need a telecentric lens and well setup :)
[16:11:00] <frallzoran> Im glad I got hearing protection =P
[16:11:30] <alex4nder> archivist: yah, let me go find one in the garage. ;)
[16:11:58] <archivist> I dont like the price of them
[16:12:00] <andypugh> I am not sure you even need great setup. If you twist the spindle through 90 degrees the spindle axis is marked by the pixel that doesn't move.
[16:12:30] <alex4nder> andypugh: so it's not enough for most setups to care
[16:13:21] <archivist> what size is the pixel :)
[16:15:17] <fragalot> andypugh: so you agree? (going for ER16 as I need the 8mm size)
[16:15:25] <alex4nder> andypugh: I was thinking of doing something like that.. mounting a webcam on the taig spindle t-slot
[16:15:28] <fragalot> thanks for notifying me about that :P
[16:16:12] <andypugh> Are you sure that you don't need anything bigger than 8mm? There are lots of 1/2" router cutters
[16:16:55] <fragalot> andypugh: i'm european
[16:17:01] <fragalot> 8mm is default here
[16:17:16] <andypugh> So am I. and we still have lots of 1/4" and 1/2"
[16:17:26] <fragalot> I don't :P
[16:17:44] * alex4nder grabs some popcorn.
[16:17:46] <fragalot> I only do tiny things anyway, only reason I want 8mm is because I have some 8mm shaft mill bits
[16:17:53] <L84Supper> andypugh, http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/40422/?nlid=nldly&nld=2012-05-17 any input?
[16:18:20] <fragalot> andypugh: also, it's a sable 2015... it's not a very big machine :P
[16:18:21] <andypugh> There are ER20 ones too. I suspect that they might not have the speed you need. But it's worth checking
[16:19:09] * fragalot looks
[16:19:36] <fragalot> too big for my machine :/
[16:20:16] <fragalot> plus 3kW... that's waaay too much xD
[16:20:37] <andypugh> It's an interesting idea, but multple injections and EGR are normal in diesels.
[16:21:35] <andypugh> Something needs to change, though, as the number of bolt-on parts on a diesel now is stupid.
[16:22:44] <andypugh> EGR, EGR cooler, EGRcooler bypass, intake throttle, turbo, turbo vane controller, intercooler, DPF, LNT, Cat….
[16:23:43] <archivist> the old 3 cyl taxi engine had intake throttle waaaay back
[16:25:09] <andypugh> cradek: http://www.linuxcnc.org/index.php/french/component/kunena/?func=view&catid=41&id=20150&limit=6#20171
[16:30:54] <whaat> Going afk a bit, thanks for the replies
[16:33:28] <roycroft> so it occured to me that my previous comments about a hs r8 spindle were likely misinterpreted
[16:33:37] <roycroft> i do not want a hs spindle that takes an r8 collet
[16:33:52] <roycroft> i want a hs spindle that fits in an r8 spindle
[16:34:01] <roycroft> so it mounts just like any other piece of tooling
[16:36:35] <PCW> Wonder if the simple z axis touch off that the guy on the forum wants could be done with two cheap MEMs accelerometers
[16:36:37] <PCW> and mechanics like the EDGE dial touch off but with one accelerometer mounted to the disk and one to the housing (for differential sensing)
[16:39:30] <PCW> or maybe just a piezo disk. The tool touch has to have much higher frequency components than way vibrations
[16:39:40] <andypugh> integrate accel by time (twice) to find out how far the tool has pushed it before tripping..
[16:40:45] <PCW> those accelerometers are only a few bucks
[16:43:07] <archivist> roycroft, have you seen this homebrew spindle http://www.raynerd.co.uk/?p=1562
[16:43:29] <PCW> even an ultrasonic BZT transducer on the back of a steel/tungsten carbide disk ought to make quite a pulse when hit
[16:49:41] <joe9> anyone using openscad to generate 3d shapes to be later used by heekscad/heekscnc?
[16:50:07] <joe9> openscad is pretty cool. not sure how the integration with heekscad/cnc is.
[17:00:22] <roycroft> i hadn't seen that, archivist - thanks
[17:00:40] <roycroft> i'm interested in maximum speed, tir, and how much heat it generates, of course
[17:01:16] * roycroft bookmarks for later perusal
[17:01:58] <archivist> as soon as I have spare cash I may try one
[17:01:58] <roycroft> i won't say a spindle is an afterthought, but since it's so independent of the rest of the system, i haven't yet made it a high priority to get spindles sorted out
[17:02:17] <roycroft> i was only discussing it earlier today because someone else was talking about spindles
[17:02:34] <roycroft> my focus right now is on the interface from the computer to the motors
[17:02:42] <roycroft> i want to purchase those components soon
[17:03:11] <roycroft> then i'll work on the motor mounts, and ball screws, should i decide to use them
[17:04:02] <roycroft> although my the primary driving force for this project is the ability to fabricate pcbs, once i do the rest of the conversion i'll have a full-fleged general-purpose cnc mill, other than the high speed spindle
[17:04:08] <roycroft> and i can do everything but engraving or pcbs
[17:04:25] <roycroft> i could even start out with that cheap spindle from zen
[17:04:35] <roycroft> it's $90, but tir is 0.0025", which is pretty poor
[17:04:47] <roycroft> and it maxes out at 8k rmp
[17:04:49] <roycroft> rpm
[17:05:04] <roycroft> i'd like at least 20k rpm and tir of 0.0005" or better
[17:05:24] <roycroft> and the ability to run it for more than 10 minutes straight without it self-destructing
[17:06:10] <r00t4rd3d> http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&item=320909267308&nma=true&rt=nc&si=xjp43HaMd3vznCV11rD5IAtuY6s%253D&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWNX%3AIT&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc
[17:06:12] <r00t4rd3d> won that
[17:06:14] <archivist> you have to pay a lot for good tir
[17:06:19] <roycroft> yeah, i know
[17:06:38] <roycroft> going from thousandths to tenths is a big jump in price
[17:10:47] <roycroft> and now i'm thinking that, when i disassemble the x3 for the cnc conversion, it is time for a one-shot oil setup as well
[17:11:35] <frallzoran> 2 flute carbide cutter, 13.5k-18k rpm, name a good feed rate
[17:11:47] <frallzoran> tool = 6mm or 1/4"
[17:13:11] <archivist> frallzoran, one works it out by the feed per tooth per rev, which is material and cutter dependent
[17:14:21] <frallzoran> I get that info via HSMworks, how to know if its any good? =))
[17:14:54] <frallzoran> material is Alu unknow alloy as an example
[17:14:59] <frallzoran> *unknown
[17:20:47] <archivist> by working it out knowing your machine and tooling and trying it
[17:21:36] <whaat> alex4nder, found the usb thread. fortunately, timing, threading, limits and homing are already performed in hardware, so usb might have a chance still
[17:22:29] <frallzoran> archivist pretty sure there are some generic things to try when you get values like these http://www.lolz.se/uploader/pics/datacnc.jpg
[17:22:38] <frallzoran> pretty much all one kan find out =)
[17:23:25] <archivist> frallzoran, have you used a manual machine?
[17:23:32] <frallzoran> nope
[17:23:42] <frallzoran> or I have but years ago =)
[17:24:11] <archivist> there are other calculators on the net http://www.custompartnet.com/calculator/milling
[17:24:59] <archivist> often the noise a cut makes will force you to change speeds and feeds
[17:26:07] <frallzoran> I hate tooling with no data on them =(
[17:27:08] <frallzoran> playing around with no name brands
[17:27:45] <archivist> some suppliers have very good data books with data, sandvik has a good general book you can download
[17:28:49] <frallzoran> any link for sandviks book?
[17:31:21] <andypugh> whaat: So, what is the input format into your USB controller?
[17:32:11] <whaat> Time based commands
[17:33:03] <alex4nder> whaat: the best way to know is to measure.
[17:34:21] <frallzoran> that sandvik app for smartphones seems pretty nifty
[17:34:37] <frallzoran> gave me a nice value that seems plausible
[17:35:29] <whaat> Will try to figure out how to get the controller and emc2 to talk, if manage that to work might post results somewhere
[17:36:17] <frallzoran> usb-controller?
[17:36:56] <gene77> Does anyone have the winding color code for a xylotex 24H290-35-8B motor?
[17:36:58] <whaat> But seems it works somewhat different from how emc2 is designed, so dont know if it might work after all
[17:37:33] <whaat> Yes, usb connection to pc
[17:38:00] <andypugh> time-based commands in what format? millisecond-by-millisecond positions?
[17:39:05] <whaat> Time delta, don't know exact unit atm
[17:39:38] <andypugh> How does probing and threading fit into that? (Not that you need those on all machines)
[17:39:58] <whaat> For example x axis moves to # with accel # until time is #
[17:40:21] <andypugh> Think I found my bug, and it's a cool one: for (j = 0 ; i < hm2->sserial.instance[i].num_auto; j++){
[17:40:36] <whaat> Probing don't know yet, threading has its own command
[17:41:13] <andypugh> Well, you might be able to get that out of LinuxCNC, possibly in the HAL layer
[17:41:38] <archivist> whaat, that gives an error if x and y are accelerating differently for an angular cut unless x and y coordinate the acceleration to maintain the path
[17:41:44] <andypugh> I think you might have more luck doing it the normal, supported, understood way.
[17:43:13] <whaat> They're coordinated AFAIK, so they jeep proportion if one stays behind
[17:43:43] <whaat> Not sure how interacts with timing tho
[17:45:08] <archivist> some servo controllers are fed over the network that way and talk to each other
[17:47:55] <whaat> Same controller has the 4 axes it supports, so they can be coordinated somehow, but still need to figure out how to get usb and pc sides to talk properly
[17:49:13] <whaat> Moving straight lines is straightforward, but gets more complicated if feedback is needed to the pc
[17:57:03] <jdhNC> gene: http://www.xylotex.com/24H290-35-8B.pdf might be useful
[17:58:16] <andypugh> gene77: How many wires? It might be easier to figure it out from first principles, I have known motors not to match their datasheets.
[17:59:05] <andypugh> Ah yes, 8-wire motors.
[17:59:16] <ReadError> hey
[17:59:18] <ReadError> stupid question
[17:59:27] <ReadError> if i pause during cutting something
[17:59:38] <ReadError> can i jog the z axis up to swap the endmill
[17:59:44] <andypugh> You can figure out the winding pairs by seeing which ones, when touched together, make the motor stiffer to turn.
[17:59:50] <ReadError> and when i resume, will it go back down to where it needs to be?
[17:59:55] <andypugh> ReadError: No, sorry.
[18:00:20] <jdhNC> you can do that if you insert a manual tool change
[18:00:41] <andypugh> It's a perfectly reasonable thing to want to do, but LinuxCNC has a structure that makes it currently difficult.
[18:01:03] <Tom_itx> how so?
[18:01:12] <jdhNC> andypugh: it works fine with the tool change thing.
[18:01:48] <andypugh> With the jog-during-toolchange patch, it can be done during a toolchange.
[18:02:18] <andypugh> But in that case you could just set the toolchange position to be quill-up
[18:03:35] <andypugh> If you need to swap a cutter during an unscheduled pause, the closest thing is to stop then run-from-line (which has its own problems)
[18:03:58] <Tom_itx> you're likely gonna need to touch off again too you think?
[18:04:25] <jdhNC> I think you can touch off while doing that.
[18:04:40] <andypugh> mah has part of the solution in a development branch. It is coming, but it's anyones guess when.
[18:06:16] <gene77> 8 wire & I want to use in BP
[18:06:18] <andypugh> ReadError: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Jog-While-Paused
[18:06:23] <gene77> 8 wire & I want to use it BP
[18:06:41] <gene77> no stripped wires, all solid colors
[18:07:34] <andypugh> gene77: I can't remember how to figure out which is A and which is B. But you can get the pairs by touching them together to see which make it stiffer.
[18:08:20] <andypugh> Once you have that you can find the start and end of each pair, one way connected they will make the motor twice as stiff, the other way they cancel, and the motor turns freely.
[18:09:11] <Tom_itx> http://www.linengineering.com/line/contents/stepmotors/Wiring_Connections.aspx
[18:09:17] <Tom_itx> maybe that will help
[18:10:04] <andypugh> So, if W1 and W2 are a pair and W3 and W4 are a pair, then W1-W3 / W2-W4 is one combo, and W1-W4 / W2-W3 is the other, and one way will be stiff, and one free.
[18:10:34] <jdhNC> isn't an ohmmeter more reliable?
[18:10:48] <Tom_itx> it will give you the pairs but that's it
[18:11:10] <jdhNC> I'd start with the docs :)
[18:11:40] <andypugh> I had a motor with wires which didn't match the docs, I could not figure out how the motor could take 5A, get hot, and make no torque. I had start1A connected to start2A..
[18:12:15] <andypugh> Ohm-meter gives you ends, but not directions.
[18:12:18] <Tom_itx> nice little heater there
[18:13:38] <Tom_itx> you can also put a 'flag' on the shaft and excite the coils with a 1.5v battery and see alot from that
[18:15:20] <Tom_itx> won't necesarily give you the order but it may help with direction
[18:15:57] <Tom_itx> once you've ohm'd the pairs
[18:19:59] <Tom_itx> after that, if you combine the pairs and the battery won't turn it, they're the wrong pairs
[18:20:32] <andypugh> Yes, battery and zero torque indicates a start-start or end-end connection.
[18:21:01] <Tom_itx> so you can determine the direction for each pair once you've ohm'd the pairs
[18:21:30] <andypugh> Telling A from B is the part I can't recall how to do
[18:21:43] <Tom_itx> the battery won't turn the pair
[18:21:59] <Tom_itx> it'll be a nice little heater i think
[18:22:13] <andypugh> A1 in serais with B1 is a microstep
[18:22:21] <Tom_itx> or it won't turn it the full step
[18:22:34] <Tom_itx> watch the flag!
[18:22:56] <andypugh> No, it will sit on a half step, but how you tell that from a full step I am not sure
[18:23:06] <Tom_itx> me either
[18:23:22] <Tom_itx> but you can determine quite a bit with a couple simple tests
[18:25:14] <Tom_itx> if it's sitting on a half step and you remove the power, wouldn't it be easy to turn it manually to the full step position?
[18:25:31] <Tom_itx> and if it didn't move, it would already be there
[18:26:08] <andypugh> Maybe.
[18:40:53] <alex4nder> yoh
[18:42:26] <ReadError> alex4nder https://p.twimg.com/AtNSDuOCAAAX-iW.jpg
[18:42:58] <alex4nder> sick
[18:43:03] <andypugh> I can't decide if that is a "thingy" or a "widget"
[18:43:08] <alex4nder> ReadError: motor mount?
[18:43:13] <ReadError> nah center hub
[18:43:22] <ReadError> will hold 4x 3/4 aluminum square tubes
[18:43:37] <ReadError> should be super strong, made it in 0.125" :)
[18:43:45] <alex4nder> nice
[18:43:53] * frallzoran demands a group hug
[18:44:21] <andypugh> wrong group, dude
[18:44:31] <alex4nder> yah
[18:44:32] <frallzoran> no it isnt ;)
[18:44:46] <alex4nder> ReadError: what was your feed rate?
[18:59:25] <ReadError> i went kinda slow on that
[18:59:33] <ReadError> 1.7ipm
[18:59:37] <ReadError> since it was so thick
[19:02:44] <alex4nder> ReadError: at what spindle speed?
[19:03:37] <ReadError> hmmm not sure
[19:03:41] <ReadError> right above the middle
[19:19:19] <Connor> http://www.ivdc.com/cnc/conversion/mill_in_shop1.jpg
[19:19:23] <Connor> http://www.ivdc.com/cnc/conversion/mill_in_shop2.jpg
[19:19:25] <Connor> http://www.ivdc.com/cnc/conversion/mill_in_shop3.jpg
[19:20:07] <Connor> OKay, Questions... I'm trying to decide how I want to setup my console... I like the idea of having the keyboard/mouse & monitor mounted on a movable arm..
[19:20:56] <Connor> and I'm thinking kinda in front of the hot water heater..
[19:20:59] <andypugh> Mouse?
[19:21:07] <ReadError> that mill is huge ;)
[19:21:21] <andypugh> Maybe better to have a trackpad, trackball or touchscreen
[19:21:32] <ReadError> what kind of mill is it?
[19:21:35] <Connor> I hate Tackpads, trackballs..
[19:22:07] <Connor> I use my mouse very high resolution.. and touchscreen is a possibility.
[19:22:15] <andypugh> Fair enough, but mice hate machine shops.
[19:22:31] <Connor> Yea, I found that crap getting under it was a pain..
[19:22:46] <andypugh> They need a flat surface, and flat surfaces end up under piles of swarf and tooling
[19:22:46] <djdelorie> http://pckeyboard.mivamerchant.net/mm5/graphics/00000001/Straight%20on%202.png
[19:23:27] <Connor> At some point.. I'm wanting to install a large chip pan and enclose it.. which probably means I'll have move my shelfing...
[19:24:15] <Connor> ReadError: That's my G0704..
[19:24:54] <andypugh> djdelorie: I have http://www.devlin-group.co.uk/downloads/KSM067TS%20&%20TP.pdf on my machine.
[19:24:56] <djdelorie> http://www.thinkgeek.com/computing/keyboards-mice/e0e7/
[19:24:56] <Connor> as you can see in photo 2. I have it on my MDF box that my shop vacuum is in.. that's for my shop bandsaw/drill press.. I've got them shoved over in the corner to the right..
[19:25:45] <ReadError> where is the z-axis motor?
[19:26:08] <Connor> you can't see it, it's behind the spindle motor.
[19:26:15] <andypugh> That's a cute thing
[19:26:25] <Connor> if you look real carefully you can see the top of the rear shaft.
[19:27:00] <djdelorie> http://www.amazon.com/Seal-Shield-Glow-Keyboard-SW90PG2/dp/tech-data/B003N3DV66
[19:27:46] <djdelorie> andypugh: my linuxcnc keyboard is a generic $5 keyboard, but my main desktop has an original 1985 IBM Model M keyboard
[19:28:08] <andypugh> OOh! I always assumed that these were total vapourware: http://www.thinkgeek.com/computing/keyboards-mice/9836/
[19:29:27] <andypugh> I had a friend who insisted he wanted "a proper clicky keyboard like a model M" but I suggested he try one of the aluminium short-travel Mac keyboards, and he loved it.
[19:29:33] <djdelorie> at that price, they might as well be :-P
[19:30:39] <djdelorie> for $200 MORE, you can buy a used one on eBay
[19:32:20] <djdelorie> I've used a LOT of different keyboards in my life, and vastly prefer the model M. But I know many people who have tried it and feel otherwise.
[19:35:44] <andypugh> I think I would prefer no keyboard and electrodes in my brain.
[19:36:12] <andypugh> But I do seem to type a great deal faster on this Apple keyboard.
[19:37:54] <Thetawaves> is it a standalone keyboard?
[19:37:59] <Thetawaves> or laptop keyboard?
[19:43:02] <andypugh> Thetawaves: A bit of both.
[19:43:11] <Thetawaves> huh?
[19:43:45] <andypugh> I think it is identical to the keyboard on the alumnium Macbooks, but it is a standalone keyboard.
[19:44:30] <andypugh> So it has individual short-travel keys in an aluminium slab, with a distinct space between the keys.
[19:45:01] <alex4nder> that's like the keyboard on my air
[19:45:26] <Thetawaves> oh cool
[19:45:38] <Thetawaves> i do like this macbook keyboard a lot
[19:45:58] <Thetawaves> andypugh, it may feel faster to type because your fingers don't have to move as far down, right?
[19:46:22] <andypugh> http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC184LL/B?fnode=MTc0MjU4OTY
[19:46:49] <andypugh> I think it is the spacing reduces double-strikes. I am an awful typist :-)
[19:47:06] * Thetawaves doesn't make mistakes.
[19:48:07] <andypugh> I would prefer bigger cursor keys, and a delete key though (it has backspace, but you need to fn-backspace for right-delete). The full-size one has those
[19:48:35] <andypugh> It's not the ideal gaming keyboard, especially not for YPP swordfight.
[19:48:37] <Thetawaves> no
[19:49:20] <Thetawaves> 1) how often do you need to delete? Other than when writing
[19:49:42] <Thetawaves> if you are using delete as part of a key combination, you need to modify your programs
[19:50:25] <andypugh> All the CAD programs I use use "delete" not "backspace" to get rid of things.
[19:51:06] <Thetawaves> that will be a problem.
[19:51:14] <Thetawaves> on mac, nothing needs delete, obviously
[19:51:29] <Thetawaves> can you map delete to one of the function keys?
[19:52:01] <andypugh> Possibly. I admit that most of the problems are in Windows apps in VMware
[19:52:28] <Thetawaves> that is unfortunate :-/
[19:52:48] <andypugh> I want FreeCAD to grow the fatures I need, then I will be happy
[19:52:52] <Thetawaves> the full size keyboard has a delete key?
[19:53:06] <andypugh> I am not sure, actually
[19:55:17] <andypugh> Yes
[19:55:41] <andypugh> That has home/end/page up / page dowm delete in a blck
[19:56:06] <andypugh> And 19 function keys!
[19:56:19] <Thetawaves> lol
[20:02:06] <ReadError> i like mechanical keyboards
[20:02:11] <ReadError> cherry switches :)
[20:08:27] <Thetawaves> they are good too
[20:08:34] <Thetawaves> i really appreciate my old ibm keyboards
[20:19:22] <Jymmm> andypugh: For PS2 I still use IBM KEyboard for over 15 years. For USB, I usr the Apple Wired and a silicon cover http://km.support.apple.com/library/APPLE/APPLECARE_ALLGEOS/HT1216/Pasted%20Graphic.png
[20:20:07] <Jymmm> Love em both, but the Apple is thin, quiter, but still has a great feel comparted to the ibm clicky kybds
[20:20:46] <Jymmm> the silicon cover takes a little to get used to, maybe 2 weeks
[20:21:42] <Jymmm> battery kybds are jsut annoying as the battery dies when you dont have any spares
[20:22:10] <andypugh> Yeah, I rather like wired, but this machine came with the Bluetooth one
[20:22:40] <Jymmm> So did my gf's, and she has the wired and a brand new BT one still in the bx
[20:23:15] <Jymmm> that came with her imac
[20:23:34] <Jymmm> the wired is a realy good kybd
[20:23:50] <ReadError> andypugh, u get the mighty pad?
[20:23:56] <andypugh> ?
[20:24:05] <Jymmm> just get a silicon cover off ebay if it's gonna get dirty
[20:24:09] <Jymmm> the track pad
[20:24:18] <Jymmm> magic pad or wth it's called
[20:24:21] <andypugh> No, the mouse.
[20:24:34] <Jymmm> that IS the mouse
[20:24:46] <Jymmm> but it's a pad instead of a mouse shape
[20:24:46] <andypugh> I like it, even if it is unergonomic and annoying
[20:25:09] <Jymmm> kensigtin trackball FTW
[20:25:13] <andypugh> But the mouse is a trackpad too. it's confusing
[20:25:24] <Jymmm> heh
[20:25:34] <ReadError> it does gestures
[20:25:35] <ReadError> too
[20:25:37] <Jymmm> nuh uh =)
[20:25:41] <ReadError> so you can keep 1 hand on the pad
[20:25:44] <ReadError> 1 on the mouse
[20:26:00] <Jymmm> ReadError: I got a gesture for that
[20:28:45] <andypugh> I wonder what the point of all the Z moves is? http://youtu.be/E3AqIZURMbI
[20:29:59] <roycroft> andupugh: that mill's mother probably dropped it on its head when it was a baby
[20:35:39] <gene77> Andy, just came by and saw your replies, thanks, I test that tomorrow.
[21:12:21] <tjb1> still having some issues with the tungsten...
[21:14:08] <tjb1> thinking that maybe I'm getting it too pointy and the thin area is melting off
[21:15:25] <roycroft> stupid question
[21:15:29] <roycroft> don't be offended, please
[21:15:35] <roycroft> do you have polarity set correctly?
[21:16:24] <roycroft> for steel you want dcen
[21:16:34] <tjb1> yes
[21:16:46] <tjb1> its set dc -
[21:16:54] <roycroft> ok, just making sure :)
[21:17:03] <tjb1> not that much of a noob :)
[21:17:17] <roycroft> i had no idea what your experience level was
[21:17:25] <roycroft> which is why i asked you not to be offended :)
[21:17:28] <tjb1> Never used a big before today.
[21:17:30] <tjb1> *tig
[21:18:13] <tjb1> I then had the tip holding nice somehow
[21:18:22] <tjb1> I think I'm getting it too close also..
[21:20:22] <tjb1> Also, part of the puddle jumped on to the tungsten and made a nice ball.
[21:23:35] <tjb1> roycroft: how close should the tip be from the end of the lens?
[21:31:08] <Valen> puddle touching tip = contaminaition
[21:31:15] <Valen> grind it off and start again
[21:31:58] <Valen> the tungsten will often make a ball by itself though not generally for steel
[21:32:22] <Valen> i have the tungsten about 5-10mm or so past the cup
[21:32:29] <Valen> normally more like 5
[21:32:36] <tjb1> When I do that it seems to burn the taper off
[21:33:13] <Valen> define "that"
[21:33:40] <tjb1> Stick it out 3/16-1/4"
[21:33:45] <tjb1> it just takes the taper off
[21:33:54] <Valen> whats the taper?
[21:33:55] <tjb1> until I'm about back to solid tungsten
[21:34:02] <tjb1> whatever the chem sharp is putting
[21:34:16] <Valen> eh either too many amps or dont bother about it
[21:34:19] <Valen> chem sharp?
[21:35:08] <tjb1> heat the tip, dip it in and it burns a taper on
[21:35:40] <tjb1> This is a 1/8" 2% thor at only around 100 amps
[21:35:54] <Valen> well laaade friggin dah mr fancy pants lol
[21:35:58] <tjb1> #7 lens on a lincoln 17 torch
[21:36:01] <Valen> we just use a gringer
[21:36:04] <tjb1> its cheaper than a grinder!
[21:36:06] <Valen> grinder
[21:36:16] <Valen> grinder cost $20
[21:36:20] <tjb1> this was $10
[21:36:25] <tjb1> :P
[21:36:57] <Valen> mine will last alot longer and when you contaminate the tungsten it wont contaminate whatever that nasty ass checmical that can wat tungsten is
[21:36:59] <Valen> eat
[21:37:23] <tjb1> I think its just sodium
[21:37:45] <tjb1> can too much argon cause the tip to burn off?
[21:38:41] <Valen> its normal for the tip to ball up some
[21:38:54] <Valen> i use ~10cfm for argon
[21:39:27] <tjb1> its turning like a 5/16 taper into an 1/8 taper
[21:39:34] <tjb1> with like 1 inch beads.
[21:41:37] <Valen> http://www.burnsstainless.com/Newsletters/Articles/Welding/TIG_Torch_Figure_6.JPG
[21:43:50] <tjb1> what am i looking for?
[21:44:10] <Valen> thats what they should look like roughly
[21:45:23] <tjb1> very short tapers
[21:46:01] <Valen> i'd use a bench grinder untill you know what your doing personally
[21:46:14] <Valen> normally about 45 degree angle
[21:46:58] <tjb1> I tried a bench grinder earlier
[21:47:15] <tjb1> with the 3/32 tungsten and I was burning them off faster than I could grind them
[21:47:30] <Valen> too many amps then
[21:47:56] <Valen> 100A is what i'd use on something like 6mm
[21:48:03] <Valen> tig is slower than mig
[21:48:14] <Valen> wind the amps down some, take your time
[21:48:21] <Valen> (6mm steel)
[21:48:32] <tjb1> The lincoln book says that 3/32 tungsten can handle max amperage
[21:49:02] <Valen> if your doing more than 45 deg it will melt pretty fast
[21:49:19] <tjb1> so it will melt itself down to the point where it will stop melting?
[21:49:19] <Valen> also if you contaminate the tungsten (with steel) it'll eat the tip
[21:49:30] <tjb1> then will weld all nice and fansy
[21:49:32] <Valen> yeah basically
[21:49:40] <tjb1> well screw it then
[21:49:49] <tjb1> ill just taper it and let it burn itself to where its happy.
[21:50:07] <Valen> i only bother with a fine point when i'm doing fiddly stuff and need to direct the arc
[21:50:27] <Valen> just do it on the bench grinder, it takes about 5 seconds ;-P
[21:50:39] <tjb1> that wheel has been used for steel
[21:50:45] <Valen> you can also make asymetric points and stuff if you need to shift the arc over
[21:50:45] <tjb1> and probably every material known in the garage
[21:51:05] <Valen> its ok the level of stuff your going to get isn't going to bother you
[21:51:36] <Valen> also practise with low amps and getting a decent bead
[21:51:44] <Valen> what are you practising on?
[21:51:49] <tjb1> washers
[21:51:54] <tjb1> didn't feel like cutting steel
[21:52:02] <tjb1> I was doing scrap pipe earlier
[21:52:08] <Valen> your putting 100A into a washer?
[21:52:24] * Valen is thinking something the size of a coin here
[21:53:28] <tjb1> about 1/8 thick
[21:53:34] <tjb1> i set the machine to 100
[21:53:38] <tjb1> the pedal wasn't at 100
[21:53:51] <Valen> ok then lol
[21:54:07] <Valen> if they are zinc or gal it'll screw stuff up
[21:54:15] <tjb1> screw the tungsten up?
[21:54:21] <Valen> also breathing those fumes is bad for you
[21:54:23] <Valen> the weld
[21:54:27] <Valen> make it uglier
[21:54:30] <tjb1> I'm not worried about the weld yet
[21:54:37] <tjb1> still trying to keep the tungsten from killing itself lol
[21:54:46] <Valen> get a lump of 6mm or so
[21:54:50] <Valen> 1/4
[21:54:53] <tjb1> at $6 a pop, need to fix things
[21:54:55] <Valen> just scrap
[21:55:07] <Valen> run about say 60A or so
[21:55:22] <Valen> just practise running a bead
[21:55:30] <Valen> make sure its shiny metal clean
[21:55:46] <Valen> any rust or scale will make it pop and fart and spray sparks
[21:56:01] <tjb1> 3/32?
[21:56:06] <Valen> and make your welds look like a turkey with diarrhoea
[21:56:28] <Valen> yeah
[21:56:42] <Valen> start at low amps
[21:56:54] <Valen> if your not making a puddle then add a bit more
[21:57:32] <tjb1> alright
[21:58:02] <tjb1> can I clean this with a steel wire wheel
[21:58:11] <Valen> yeah
[21:58:13] <tjb1> or do I need to spring for a fancy ass stainless wire wheel too?
[21:58:27] <Valen> i always use a stainless wheel
[21:58:36] <Valen> just because the wheel doesnt rust lol
[21:59:11] <Valen> but if your going to do stainless make sure you use a stainless wheel and only use it on stainless, otherwise it'll rust
[21:59:26] <Valen> angle grinder is good for cleaning steel too
[21:59:38] <tjb1> we use a lot of them sand paper discs
[21:59:46] <Valen> makes it easy to make a V to fill with weld
[22:00:51] <tjb1> any other tips?
[22:01:25] <Valen> did i mention it has to be clean? ;->
[22:01:34] <Valen> umm autodarkening helmets are awesome
[22:01:48] <tjb1> we got 3 of them
[22:01:49] <Valen> if you get sooty black marks around the weld, the tungsten is contaminated
[22:02:26] <Valen> if it goes blue when your finished (the tungsten) then your post weld purge is too short
[22:02:40] <Valen> (blue is oxygen contamination)
[22:02:42] <tjb1> I got the purge at about 12 now
[22:02:48] <Valen> 12 is pretty long
[22:03:08] <Valen> generally it just needs to be long enough that the tip isnt red any more
[22:03:29] <Valen> i also keep the torch over the weld as the purge runs to keep the shield over the hot part of the bead
[22:03:52] <Valen> keep preflow purge short or it just gets irritating
[22:03:56] <Valen> i think i have .7 or so
[22:04:48] <ReadError> will your machine do aluminum ?
[22:04:50] <tjb1> .7?
[22:04:56] <Valen> .7 of a second
[22:05:02] <tjb1> dang.
[22:05:05] <tjb1> yes read
[22:05:16] <tjb1> its dc+-,ac
[22:05:18] <tjb1> 230 amp
[22:05:20] <ReadError> how much is a decent TIG that will do aluminum ?
[22:05:39] <tjb1> One I got is a Lincoln Precision 225
[22:05:49] <tjb1> It was $2400 at Harris Welding Supplies with the cart
[22:05:58] <ReadError> needs gas?
[22:06:01] <tjb1> yes
[22:06:03] <ReadError> argon
[22:06:07] <tjb1> yep
[22:06:10] <ReadError> how much is one of those tanks?
[22:06:31] <Valen> I hear that a touch of helium in the argon makes for better Al welds
[22:06:33] <tjb1> No idea how much the tank is
[22:06:42] <Valen> i've only ever done it with straight argon though
[22:06:50] <tjb1> It was $65 to fill our 300 tank
[22:07:12] <ReadError> how long will that last you think?
[22:07:34] <ReadError> ive done steel on a wirefeed
[22:07:41] <ReadError> but i want to learn to do aluminum
[22:07:42] <tjb1> 300 is huge
[22:08:34] <tjb1> its 9"x55"
[22:08:39] <tjb1> 135lbs
[22:09:28] <ReadError> i want to get a nice drillpress
[22:09:28] <tjb1> I think our other tank is like a 150, its a 25/75 mix for our mig welder
[22:10:29] <tjb1> Ill try that all tomorrow valen and get back to you
[22:10:52] <tjb1> ReadError: we have this - http://www.tractorsupply.com/black-bull-trade-drill-press-with-laser-guide-work-light-16-speed-3900673
[22:10:57] <tjb1> its not bad but the table flexes
[22:18:19] <tjb1> Valen: ill trying a nice blunt short angle point tomorrow on clean metal and report back
[22:38:18] <ReadError> i think my chips are getting welded to the outside when i cut
[22:38:25] <ReadError> am i going to slow?
[22:38:39] <ReadError> looks like a fuzzy cut on the outside
[22:38:52] <ReadError> or inside, depending on what direction im going
[22:39:42] <Tom_itx> dull cutter
[22:42:16] <ReadError> it was brand new
[22:58:47] <tjb1> Did not know that the long cover on the back was used to adjust tungsten length...
[23:12:37] <Jymmm> ReadError: welded chips when you cut what?