#linuxcnc | Logs for 2012-05-09

[00:43:13] <Connor_CNC> Hey guys, is there a canned routine to do a surface facing ?
[00:47:08] <toastydeath> Connor: there is no standardized facing routine.
[00:47:45] <toastydeath> unless you count "a flycutter" as a standarized facing routine, obv
[00:48:14] <Connor> No fly cutter.. just 3/4" End Mill for now..
[00:48:16] <Connor> not ideal..
[00:48:38] <toastydeath> flycutters is cheap
[00:48:58] <toastydeath> also a lot more accurate w/ better surface finish and tool life
[00:49:02] <Connor> Don't have one ATM.
[00:49:17] <toastydeath> http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=1231
[00:49:53] <toastydeath> also look into o-codes on emc
[00:50:09] <toastydeath> you could program your own facemilling routine if you are hard up for one
[00:51:16] <djdelorie> Connor: see if you have a 'face-*.py" example script in your nc_files
[00:51:56] <Connor> I didn't see anything like that..
[00:51:56] <djdelorie> if not, http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Simple_LinuxCNC_G-Code_Generators#Facing_Software
[00:52:45] <toastydeath> my question is, especially for emc, why is all this stuff scripts and programs instead of being programmed as macros
[00:53:00] <djdelorie> because g-code is a standard
[00:53:05] <toastydeath> considering emc the singlemost powerful g-code scripting language i've ever seen
[00:53:20] <djdelorie> when you hit the limits of that standard, you wrap it in something more powerful
[00:53:24] <toastydeath> g-code's a standard until you're in front of a machine
[00:53:37] <toastydeath> and emc has o-codes
[00:54:09] <djdelorie> and people use whatever scripting language they're most comfortable with, be it g-codes or python or perl or c
[00:54:10] <toastydeath> why generate code over and over again instead of just altering parameters to a command?
[00:54:44] <djdelorie> also, g-code doesn't have that convenient GUI for entering parameters
[00:54:52] <toastydeath> i guess this is that whole "if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail" thing
[00:55:12] <djdelorie> it's more like "you have a whole box of tools, use the one most suited to the job"
[00:55:37] <toastydeath> no, i'm pretty much flat out saying doing it this way is objectively stupid
[00:55:50] <djdelorie> ok, where is the GUI in g-codes ?
[00:56:03] <toastydeath> where's the gui in python?
[00:56:12] <toastydeath> suddenly g-code needs a gui?
[00:56:23] <djdelorie> there *is* a gui in python already, that's where you get to fill in the parameters
[00:56:45] <toastydeath> right, which is stupid when you're trying to write commands for a machine tool - the code itself does NOT have a gui interface.
[00:57:04] <toastydeath> the gui is what you've programmed.
[00:57:07] <djdelorie> to do the same in g-code, you have to make a copy of the macro's file, edit it to have the right parameters, then run it. Easier to wrap that g-code in a gui that sets the parameters for you
[00:57:12] <toastydeath> no, you do nto
[00:57:13] <toastydeath> *not
[00:57:31] <djdelorie> well, you have to enter the job-specific information *somewhere*
[00:57:44] <toastydeath> you can very simply and efficiently pass parameters to custom macros in g-code, and pretty much every control no matter how rudimentary since the 80s has had this ability
[00:57:50] <toastydeath> including emc
[00:58:20] <toastydeath> fanuc, for example, takes macros in the format "G65 H## X-- Y-- Z-- <W--, etc>"
[00:58:21] <djdelorie> more simply than filling in some blanks in a form and pressing "go" ?
[00:58:44] <toastydeath> lathes in every control except emc make liberal use of this for roughing cycles
[00:58:56] <toastydeath> g70-74
[00:59:07] <toastydeath> yes, far more simply
[00:59:23] <toastydeath> beacuse you are typing the command inline, and the machine evaluates the macro as the code executes on the tool
[00:59:32] <djdelorie> ok, that's a matter of opinion. If you've memorized the alphabet soup, run the macro and stop complaining
[00:59:37] <toastydeath> so as part revisions change, you can quickly and easily change the command.
[00:59:53] <toastydeath> without a bunch of useless copypasta
[01:00:45] <toastydeath> if by "memorized the alphabet soup," you mean learned to use the tool, then yes
[01:00:56] <djdelorie> you're talking about something different. Connor was asking for a canned facing routine. I pointed him at one. You're talking about scripting an entire job for repeatability
[01:01:11] <toastydeath> a canned facing routine is a actual term, in g-code, for something
[01:01:28] <djdelorie> By that same reasoning, you should learn to write Postscript if you want to use your laser printer, instead of using a word processor.
[01:01:32] <toastydeath> it does not mean any random script
[01:01:44] <toastydeath> fanuc, for example, has exactly that - a canned facing routine.
[01:01:56] <toastydeath> it's G163 or some such.
[01:02:54] <toastydeath> other more common examples of canned routines are peck drilling, tapping, and boring cycles.
[01:02:55] <djdelorie> I guess we'll have to wait for Connor_CNC to say what he really wanted, then.
[01:03:31] * Jymmm wants a beer and to see something naked!
[01:03:41] <djdelorie> so find a beer and take your clothes off
[01:04:01] <djdelorie> DO NOT POST PICTURES!
[01:04:19] <Jymmm> djdelorie: video
[01:05:16] <Jymmm> I have a 5" long 3/4" diameter tube with goo in it. Any thoughts on retail packaging of some sort?
[01:05:46] <toastydeath> ribbed blister pack?
[01:06:13] <Jymmm> clam shell?
[01:06:20] <toastydeath> wat
[01:06:37] <Jymmm> what is a ribbed blister pack
[01:07:37] <Jymmm> like pills come in?
[01:07:56] <Jymmm> or like a clam shell?
[01:08:19] <Jymmm> http://packagaesdesign.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Blister-Packaging-Design.jpg
[01:08:19] <toastydeath> it's just the vacuum formed plastic bullshit packages that are hard to open
[01:08:31] <toastydeath> that cut your shit up
[01:08:33] <toastydeath> yeah, those
[01:08:43] <Jymmm> clams shells
[01:08:48] <toastydeath> if you rib them rather than allowin them to be smooth, they're pretty crush resistant
[01:08:56] <toastydeath> *allowing
[01:08:58] <Jymmm> (that's what I call then)
[01:09:39] <Jymmm> Wow, that would be almost 4x the cost of the tube of goo
[01:10:01] <toastydeath> cardboard tubes?
[01:10:23] <Jymmm> PP tubes heat sealed, you have to cut open.
[01:11:01] <Jymmm> One issue I'm having is the tube is too small of an area for all the copy I'd liek it to have.
[01:11:17] <Jymmm> PP can't be pad printed either.
[01:11:28] <djdelorie> clear heat shrink over printed cardboard?
[01:11:46] <Jymmm> djdelorie: oh, those vacuum sealed card things
[01:19:54] <Jymmm> Ever go into an autoparts store and some parts would be haning on a piece of cardboard and some plastic vacuum formed on top of it? The back of the cardboard had a grid of tiny holes they used to vacuum seal it
[01:20:01] <Jymmm> hanging
[02:00:38] <DJ9DJ> moin
[02:19:57] <micges> hi
[02:41:58] <Jymmm> How do you draw an Equilateral Triangle so that it's 1) Centered on a certain point, and 2) of 12" sides?
[02:44:38] <archivist> draw a circle
[02:45:05] <Jymmm> of what radius?
[02:45:40] <archivist> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equilateral_triangle
[02:50:00] <Jymmm> R = (SQRT(3)/3) * a. What is 'a'?
[02:51:22] <archivist> something tells me someone has not tried any number at all in that equation
[02:55:05] <alex_joni> "Assuming the lengths of the sides of the equilateral triangle are a, we can determine using the Pythagorean theorem that:"
[03:01:44] <Jymmm> so it should be 6.928203230275508" from the center to any point of the triangle?
[03:02:20] <Jymmm> thank you
[08:33:41] <joe9> when I use a sub, any error in the ngc code comes up with the line where the sub is called. Is there any way I can find out which specific line in the sub the error message refers to?
[08:46:34] <alex4nder> morning
[09:39:08] <joe9> i could not find much in the linuxcnc gcode docs about climb or conventional mode milling. Is it an obsolete concept?
[09:39:17] <joe9> i read that climb mode is better in general.
[09:39:33] <joe9> and, I am trying to use G42 with climb mode (going clockwise)
[09:39:48] <cradek> climb milling is often better if your machine is tight enough to do it
[09:40:00] <cradek> it's not an obsolete concept at all, but it's not really a gcode matter
[09:40:05] <joe9> yes, that is what I read in the boot.
[09:40:10] <joe9> s/boot/book/
[09:40:55] <cradek> g42 puts the tool on the right of the path, so if you're spinning the usual clockwise, that's not climb milling
[09:43:49] <joe9> this is my gcode: http://codepad.org/zzagUg2o i am trying to make a rectangular slot.
[09:44:22] <joe9> and, for milling away the center, I am using G42 on the outer edge.
[09:44:32] <joe9> and, going clockwise
[09:44:39] <cradek> yargh too complicated to read
[09:44:48] <joe9> ok, thanks.
[09:45:06] <cradek> if you're going clockwise on an inside slot, g42 is correct, but that's conventional milling
[09:45:12] <cradek> for climb, use g41, go ccw
[09:45:21] <cradek> assuming your tool spins the usual clockwise
[09:45:54] <cradek> is that your question? maybe I'm not sure what you're asking
[09:48:00] <joe9> cradek, let me check the cutter blade direction. yes, you are answering the correct question. i need to figure out why g42 + clockwise is conventional and not climb.
[09:48:51] <Jymmm> Is there tooling that is 1mm diameter that could put a slot in 1/8" aluminum ?
[09:49:23] <cradek> not easily. maybe a laser?
[09:49:55] <cradek> saw blade can do that easily
[09:50:43] <cradek> I guess that's only 3.x diameters, so maybe you could do it with carbide with extreme care
[09:51:09] <tjb1> g42 and counter clockwise is climb
[09:51:19] <Jymmm> I'm not sure if it's 1 or like 1.3mm actually. Maybe I need to rethink this a bot.
[09:51:26] <Jymmm> bit
[09:52:54] <Jymmm> cradek: thanks!
[09:53:53] <cradek> tjb1: pretty sure it's not
[09:54:10] <tjb1> sorry g41
[09:55:04] <tjb1> if g42 is on right side of path and clockwise that is going against the rotation of cutter
[09:55:48] <tjb1> You would have to cut on left side and go counter clockwise to get climb
[10:05:49] <joe9> tjb1: i checked the cutter blades and I see that clockwise movement is climb.
[10:06:17] <joe9> whether G41 or G42 seems irrelevant to determine whether it is climb or conventional.
[10:06:27] <tjb1> so the cutter is rotating counter clockwise?
[10:06:38] <joe9> the direction of the cutter movement and the rotation of the cutter determines that. Doesn't it?
[10:06:55] <joe9> the cutter rotates clockwise
[10:07:01] <tjb1> You are doing an inside contour right
[10:07:46] <joe9> tjb1: don't worry. I think I figured it out.
[10:09:00] <cradek> if your tool runs clockwise, g41 is always climb. g42 is always conventional.
[10:09:14] <cradek> runs=spins
[10:09:24] <cradek> i.e. m3 mode
[10:09:38] <cradek> if you're in m4 they will swap of course
[10:20:33] <tjb1> HDD is arriving today, get to set up Linuxcnc on dedicated comp now
[10:20:48] <joe9> cradek: tjb1: when doing face milling, I am going in concentric circles from outside of the slot to the inside of the slot. I mean, make the slot and then keep moving inwards to remove the rest.
[10:21:15] <joe9> i am using the slot dimensions as G42 parameters and going clockwise.
[10:21:30] <joe9> and, then increasing x1 to x1+1.5*tool_radius
[10:21:42] <joe9> and x2 to x2 - 1.5*tool_radius
[10:21:45] <tjb1> Inside pocket, g42 and clockwise is conventional
[10:22:21] <joe9> tjb1: that holds true, if you are going from inside to outside.
[10:22:33] <joe9> but, I am going from outside to inside.
[10:22:46] <joe9> first make the slot edges and then remove the surface in the middle.
[10:23:58] <joe9> when removing the surface in the middle, the actual cutter movement resembles G41.
[10:24:27] <tjb1> Why do you care about climb-conventional on material that is being removed?
[10:27:09] <tjb1> If your going for the surface finish you should climb mill the outside of the pocket
[10:27:31] <cradek> usually you'd go from inside out, so the last pass is light cleanup
[10:27:54] <cradek> climb milling is a matter of resulting finish only
[10:29:43] <JT-Shop> iirc it also has to do with friction and heat build up due to the nature of the chip or something like that
[10:30:21] <joe9> tjb1: i had read that with climb milling the "heat generated is absorbed by the chip and the hardening of the part is prevented"
[10:30:29] <joe9> cradek: thanks, that helps.
[10:30:50] <skunkworks> if your machine is not tight (backlash) climb milling may break mills.
[10:32:18] <joe9> cradek, i should be going from inside out and then everything you and tjb1 say makes sense. sorry for the bother.
[10:32:37] <cradek> no problem, glad we figured out what the communication breakdown was
[10:33:10] <tjb1> there are differences between the two so it depends what you want to climb mill for
[10:33:14] <cradek> often cutting inward on a slot doesn't work, because the center part will fall (or more often, fly) out
[10:33:42] <cradek> so you start in the middle to "convert it all to chips" which don't ruin anything when they fly out
[10:34:42] <joe9> cradek: thanks, that makes sense.
[10:35:11] <joe9> i tried using the o200 in useful-subroutines.ngc, but could not figure out why it needs all the tan and sin calculations.
[10:35:19] <Jymmm> no salsa? n
[10:35:31] <joe9> hence, thought of writing something on my own.
[10:36:36] <joe9> anyone used/using the o200 sub in useful-subroutines.ngc? did you have to make any changes to it?
[10:37:03] <cradek> it does that so the slot doesn't have to be oriented along an axis
[10:37:37] <cradek> try doing a slot from 1,1 to 3,2 without that trig and you will find out why :-)
[10:40:13] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: jthornton Where you be? I have your cannon video link for ya http://v6.tinypic.com/player.swf?file=2zhk1h0
[10:40:30] <JT-Shop> I'm here
[10:41:12] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: Resize your browser window to resize the video =)
[10:41:13] <joe9> cradek, got it. thanks.
[10:41:51] <JT-Shop> Jymmm: kinda grainy
[10:42:00] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: Resize your browser window to resize the video =)
[10:42:05] <JT-Shop> did that
[10:42:22] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: Well, it's not 130MB anymore =)
[10:43:01] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: resize it smaller, then less grainy =)
[10:44:25] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: I have no control over the compression ratio, sizing, etc.
[10:46:45] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: If you want to embed it in your web page... <embed width="440" height="420" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" src="http://v6.tinypic.com/player.swf?file=2zhk1h0&s=6">
[10:47:24] <archivist> joe9, iirc your machine is a lighter hobby type, climb milling may break cutters if your machine is not up to it
[10:49:47] <JT-Shop> ok Jymmm
[10:50:32] <JT-Shop> Jymmm: can you trim the false starts off the beginning?
[10:50:49] <Jymmm> lol
[10:51:28] <Jymmm> I can't do any type of editing. It's just upload and go sorta thing
[10:51:35] <JT-Shop> ok
[10:51:39] <JT-Shop> didn't know
[10:52:16] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: Yeah, np. I'ts not video program, just used TinyPics.com to serve the video is all.
[10:52:26] <Jymmm> err TinyPic.com
[10:52:48] <JT-Shop> ah ok
[10:53:06] <joe9> archivist: my machine is a taig. is that good enough for climb milling?
[10:53:14] <Jymmm> They USED to have photo editing thing too, but got rid of that as well sadly.
[10:53:18] <JT-Shop> I can convert it to another fomat that winblows can edit with the movie maker or something like that
[10:53:51] <archivist> joe9, you will find out :)
[11:04:01] <joe9> is there any place where I can find gcode for common purposes? other than the useful-subroutines.ngc. I am looking to cut a rectangular slot.
[11:04:24] <joe9> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Simple_LinuxCNC_G-Code_Generators found this.
[11:08:11] <JT-Shop> my favorite page
[11:08:49] <JT-Shop> doesn't ngcgui mill have a bunch of those?
[11:09:17] <joe9> JT-Shop: have you used face.py or pocket.py?
[11:10:05] <JT-Shop> no, none of my mills have linuxcnc yet
[11:10:59] <syyl> thing of beauty ;)
[11:11:01] <syyl> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/24396704/2012-05-09_17-57-45_612.jpg
[11:11:45] <joe9> what is ngcgui? I tried it and it asks me for Preamble, Subfile..
[11:12:14] <joe9> http://emc.mah.priv.at/docs/remap/src/gui/ngcgui.txt found this.
[11:13:13] <roycroft> a milling machine needs to be very rigid and have zero backlash for climb milling to work safely
[11:14:14] <JT-Shop> syyl: nice
[11:14:39] <syyl> its to modify my lathes tailstock..
[11:14:40] <syyl> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/24396704/reitstock3.png
[11:14:41] <syyl> :D
[11:14:57] <JT-Shop> joe9: http://linuxcnc.org/index.php/english/component/kunena/?func=showcat&catid=40
[11:18:32] <roycroft> excellent
[11:18:43] <roycroft> the replacement touchscreen controller board is out for delivery
[11:18:59] <roycroft> it's a day late
[11:19:06] <roycroft> but that's ok, as long as it arrives today
[11:19:26] <joe9> JT-Shop thanks, that is helpful.
[11:20:26] <tjb1> What routers are commonly used on diy tables?
[11:21:43] <JT-Shop> joe9: your welcome
[11:23:01] <djdelorie> tjb1: mine uses a PC960 motor, sans everything else: http://www.delorie.com/photos/cnc/img_2537.html
[11:24:00] <tjb1> Is that just a fixed router with the base taken off?
[11:24:05] <djdelorie> yes
[11:24:43] <djdelorie> my other spindle is an air-powered die grinder: http://www.delorie.com/photos/cnc/img_2604.html
[11:26:04] <tjb1> Alright thanks
[11:26:16] <tjb1> May just pick up a HF router and throw it in
[11:26:39] <djdelorie> the PC960 is convenient because it's round and easy to mount :-)
[11:27:29] <tjb1> Gotta get the plasma cutter working first and before that I gotta build the table
[11:29:28] <tjb1> djdelorie: I like your pencil weight
[11:29:36] <djdelorie> good for testing :-)
[11:29:50] <roycroft> djdelorie: where do you get your motor gears?
[11:30:01] <djdelorie> a box of spares a friend brought over
[11:30:10] <djdelorie> all the mechanicals are surplus
[11:30:15] <roycroft> that's a good place to get them
[11:30:21] <roycroft> unfortunately, not available to me
[11:30:42] <djdelorie> they're fairly standard though
[11:31:26] <roycroft> yeah, i have sources
[11:31:33] <roycroft> but i'm always looking for bargains
[11:31:58] <tjb1> quite the patience to make a table out of wood
[11:32:04] <roycroft> sdp-si is probably the canonical source
[11:32:32] <djdelorie> nah, I've been woodworking for a long time, and have a full woodworking shop
[11:33:11] <tjb1> Whats going on here - http://www.delorie.com/photos/cnc/img_2555.html
[11:33:18] <tjb1> reflow?
[11:34:12] <alex4nder> hey
[11:34:30] <djdelorie> yes
[11:35:36] <tjb1> Very nice table
[11:35:56] <djdelorie> thanks!
[11:36:12] <djdelorie> it wobbles a bit though. I consider it a "learning" table
[11:37:18] <tjb1> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/plasma_edm_other_similar_machine/151355-4x4_aluminum_extrusion_hypertherm.html
[11:37:21] <tjb1> Thats mine so far
[11:54:02] <JT-Shop> Jymmm: it is only 123 MB!
[12:14:56] <tjb1> JT-Shop: Do you think 1/8" wall is enough for my table?
[12:21:20] <JT-Shop> 11ga x ? x ?
[12:22:13] <archivist> titanium...paper
[12:22:58] <JT-Shop> A36 I think
[12:23:09] <JT-Shop> but we might as well add lenght and load
[12:23:31] <JT-Shop> or just say yea, if you use enough of it
[12:23:39] <archivist> :)
[12:23:57] <archivist> enough layers
[12:31:25] <tjb1> I upped it to 3/16" to be safe :)
[12:33:46] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: oh, my bad! hahahaha
[12:40:49] <andypugh> I have just taken delivery of a package containing an 8i20 and 4 bottles of Latvian beer. I think some of you can probably guess who from.
[12:45:53] <jthornton> was it packed in sheep wool for padding?
[12:46:45] <IchGuckLive> is pcw on holiday ?
[12:52:17] <tjb1> Hate it when the motorcycle doesn't start...
[12:52:27] <tjb1> Suzuki was nice enough to bury the battery
[12:53:56] <gene__> Andy - I just tried to setp encoder.0.min-velocity-estimate 0.5, and go a pin doesn't exist error. ??
[12:55:21] <gene__> Do I need another addf something?
[12:58:56] <andypugh> No, not PCW.
[13:00:10] <andypugh> gene__: The pin looks like it out to exist. Give me a moment
[13:01:06] <gene__> Andy - ok
[13:02:16] <andypugh> Hmm, it isn't a parameter any more, and it has changed its name to min-speed-estimate !
[13:02:52] <andypugh> I am not sure if you really want to change it though.
[13:03:05] <andypugh> And it has no bearing on your threading problem.
[13:03:24] <gene__> What is the default?, oh?
[13:03:40] <Loetmichel> re @ home... btw: slate IS millable... the 6mm TC bit goes through like a hot knife through butter... but i look like a coal miner after leveling the few cm^2 surface...-> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=13173
[13:03:47] <Loetmichel> *cough* *spit*
[13:07:02] <andypugh> gene__: The default is 1.
[13:07:17] <andypugh> (no, I have no idea what it is 1 of)
[13:09:37] <andypugh> gene__: To get your closed loop spindle to work, M3 S1000 and then adjust the FF0 (using setp in the show-machine-config window) until you get 1000rpm, with PID zeroed. Then increase the I until you get the stiffness you need.
[13:10:41] <andypugh> For threading, all you need is motion.spindle-revs and motion.index-enable correctly netted to the spindle encoder. motion doesn't even see the actual spindle velocity (or, for that matter, whatever estimate your encoder is producing)
[13:18:41] <djdelorie> how accurately does linuxcnc tract actual spindle position on a lathe with just a single index pulse?
[13:18:57] <mrsun> about 1 revolution ? :P
[13:21:00] <gene__> Ok, I can try that, but I just found a cyclic variation in spindle speed even when the abs-speed is sent to pwmgen.0.value, about 1%. corresponds to timing belt noise for the most part.
[13:21:35] <gene__> Send that above to the list, this doesn't print that easily.
[13:23:33] <cradek> djdelorie: if the spindle is exactly constant speed, exactly
[13:23:53] <cradek> djdelorie: I think that's the only answer possible :-)
[13:23:59] <djdelorie> how "exactly" does a typical spindle run? How much does it matter when threading?
[13:25:05] <djdelorie> i mean, I imagine my ancient single-phase motor with belt drive isn't as good as a modern digitally controlled three-phase motor with gear drive... but does it matter?
[13:25:21] <cradek> it depends on the lathe, and how deep you are cutting, and what the material is, and how sharp your tool is, etc etc
[13:26:00] <djdelorie> "it depends" doesn't make it easy to learn this stuff :-)
[13:26:02] <cradek> I can't imagine why anyone would use index-only on a spindle if they want to cut threads
[13:26:35] <andypugh> cradek: I take it that includes not understanding why people use Mach?
[13:27:00] <andypugh> gene__: Why would you send abs speed to pwmgen.0.value?
[13:27:10] <cradek> well to be fair, people don't use mach to cut threads, they use mach to approximate cutting threads
[13:27:10] <andypugh> What the heck is in your HAL file?
[13:27:28] <djdelorie> so starting off with the assumption that some many-pulse-with-index is "better" is probably the way to go?
[13:27:55] <cradek> djdelorie: yes of course that's the unavoidable truth
[13:28:10] <jdhNC> single index is cheap and easy.
[13:28:17] <andypugh> You need to find how many ppr you can count at the spindle speed you care about.
[13:28:45] <andypugh> With a geared head, or a toothed-belt, you have a ready-made index wheel.
[13:28:50] <cradek> yes what resolution you want depends on your hardware
[13:29:09] <djdelorie> one would assume that, if you care that much about precision, you'd be buying a mesa card or something that can *handle* that kind of precision...
[13:29:29] <jdhNC> p-port is cheap and easy
[13:29:54] <djdelorie> p-port is not as fast as mesa, if you want high speed quadrature decoding or pulse following with PID
[13:30:11] <cradek> certainly true
[13:30:16] <jdhNC> I'm all for cheap and easy... 7i43 is pretty cheap.
[13:30:27] <djdelorie> although, it would work if you geared down the spindle to its slowest speed :-)
[13:31:00] <IchGuckLive> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rd4KejP1b48 yes Grid Foam G2 all works
[13:31:41] <IchGuckLive> in HD
[13:33:10] <IchGuckLive> part 1 tomorrow
[13:37:06] <andypugh> You don't need collossal resolution for good threads. Even one pulse per rev would give perfect pitch consistency at the index mark. AFAIK, though, Mach doesn't even do that. I think it moves at constant speed once it has seen the index mark, regardless of further indices.
[13:37:43] <archivist> djdelorie, I have a 48 slot + index encoder running to a par port and that threads ok
[13:38:05] <Connor> andypugh: Is their a way to get a virtual index from a encoder that doesn't have one?
[13:38:31] <andypugh> jdhNC: 7i43 and 5i25 are about the same price.
[13:38:52] <archivist> Connor, best not to think that way
[13:39:04] <cradek> andypugh: my understanding is that mach mistakenly implements this as a velocity mode problem, meaning any errors just accumulate because they are never corrected
[13:39:08] <jdhNC> andypugh: yeah, but I bought the 7i43 before the 5i25 existed
[13:39:09] <Connor> I know, I'm working on a new encoder..
[13:39:11] <andypugh> Connor: Yes, but there is a danger it might "slip"
[13:40:30] <Connor> I've got one on the mill now waiting to be finished up.. I need to re-run a updated g-code file.. and then switch out to 1/8" bit so it can cut the slots.
[13:40:58] <tjb1> Anyone good with bios stuff?
[13:41:03] <Connor> First real part my machine will have made.. fully auto.. I made set of spanner wrenches with X and Y only, ran Z manually.. that was fun.
[13:41:18] <cradek> tjb1: just ask your real question
[13:41:33] <roycroft> what kind of mill do you have again, connor?
[13:41:40] <tjb1> well put a new hdd in and i can't get it to boot from cd
[13:41:42] <Connor> G0704
[13:42:17] <jdhNC> me Too!
[13:42:20] <archivist> tjb1, still not the real question...what is the real error
[13:42:31] <tjb1> I don't get any errors
[13:42:36] <tjb1> it just won't pick up the cd when booting
[13:42:47] <tjb1> strike f1 to retry boot, f2 for setup utility
[13:43:02] <roycroft> aah, that model wasn't out when i got my x3 clone
[13:43:12] <roycroft> when i saw it i thought it might be interesting
[13:44:16] <tjb1> never mind, i somehow forced it into the cd mode before it told me to retry boot
[13:44:17] <gene__> Andy, 2 things. One is I have a rod in the chuck, limits me to 600 revs, so s600, FF0=.95 gets me an eyeball average of 10 rps in halmeter. but the variation is +-2!
[13:44:18] <archivist> tjb1, is the cdrom and hard disk both on the same ide cable, do both think they are master
[13:44:43] <tjb1> They are on separate cables and everything is set on cable select
[13:45:31] <archivist> tjb1, and have you set your bios to boot from cd as well
[13:46:01] <tjb1> yes
[13:46:06] <tjb1> its loading xp now
[13:46:23] <jdhNC> connor: can your 7x fit 3/4" in the bore?
[13:46:53] <archivist> tjb1, your answers mean you dont have a problem
[13:47:11] <andypugh> gene__: What do you get in counter mode?
[13:47:48] <tjb1> archivist: Not anymore, it allowed me to select the drive
[13:47:55] <gene__> where is that checked/set
[13:48:35] <andypugh> gene__: http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/html/man/man9/encoder.9.html
[13:48:52] <gene__> Counter.mode is false
[13:50:15] <andypugh> gene__: Yes. And it probably should be, but if you get better velocity estimates with it true then it might indicate a problem with your quadrature phasing.
[13:50:21] <Connor> jdhNC: Not on mine. The 3 jaw chuck has too small bore. The lathe itself can.
[13:50:55] <gene__> everyone has seen the pix on that, its great
[13:50:56] <andypugh> However, it probably doesn't matter all that much anyway. put a lowpass between the velocity and the visual display, and ignore it.
[13:51:27] <gene__> I have, doesn't help, even with lowpass.0.gain .01
[13:51:54] <andypugh> Doesn't help how?
[13:52:04] <andypugh> What doesn't it help?
[13:52:17] <gene__> halmeter readings do not stabilize
[13:53:30] <tjb1> My $5 computer work, awesome.
[13:53:36] <gene__> I missed your question, but it was to see if the speed was steady with pid out of the circuit, it was decent, 1% maybe
[13:54:03] <andypugh> .01 is a 0.1 second time constant. You might want to go lower than that.
[13:54:17] <gene__> I missed your question, but it was to see if the speed was steady with pid out of the circuit, it was decent, 1% maybe
[13:54:37] <gene__> to .001?
[13:55:03] <andypugh> As a first step, maybe.
[13:55:07] <Connor> What is this for, to keep RPM from bouncing all over the place ?
[13:56:00] <andypugh> But I would only run the display through that, let the PID see the raw speed, (as your PID is mainly FF0 the measured value isn't that important)
[13:56:52] <gene__> rpms don't bounce, displayed reading does.
[13:57:20] <andypugh> So filter the displayed reading.
[13:57:32] <Connor> Huh? You mean it goes from say 2025 to 2003 to 2032 and such..
[13:57:36] <gene__> and Igain 0.0001 runs the speed up, pretty fast
[13:58:13] <Connor> Mine tends to bounce around a bit...
[13:58:18] <gene__> No, I'm saying the one reading is 7.867, and the next is 13.951
[13:58:21] <andypugh> That Igain and your FF0 will probably be about right.
[13:59:03] <gene__> in whatever speed the screen update it, FF0 is .95
[13:59:24] <andypugh> I wish there was a way to check the number of edges seen between each index, as a check that the encoder was working.
[14:00:02] <gene__> Igain 0.0001 raises the spindle speed to around 750 swag
[14:00:04] <cradek> the software encoder module could sure do that
[14:00:47] <andypugh> gene__: In conjunction with the FF), or all by itself?
[14:00:48] <gene__> So do I, but I'm watching it on the scope, looks reasonable good even when time quantized by halscope
[14:01:40] <gene__> With the FF0=0.95 Igain 0=about 600, raise the igain to .0001 and it jumps to 750 or so.
[14:01:50] <archivist> cradek, and if the count is off could error, I know I can over speed the spindle and it is currently not noticed
[14:01:53] <andypugh> And are you saying that the Igain raises the speed a long way above the setpoint?
[14:02:18] <gene__> yes
[14:02:35] <cradek> archivist: it could have a pin that says the number of errors
[14:02:47] <cradek> it could also sense quadrature error (both signals changing together)
[14:03:17] <cradek> gene__: are your command and feedback units the same? you're not comparing rps with rpm are you?
[14:03:25] <archivist> cradek, mine is a A only so just does not notice a missed pulse
[14:03:39] <andypugh> gene__: What does -0.0001 do?
[14:03:48] <cradek> archivist: sure then no, but in general you could sense different kinds of errors
[14:04:20] <gene__> 480 revs, swag
[14:04:38] <Connor> swag ?
[14:04:51] <gene__> Scientific wild assed guess
[14:04:56] <andypugh> What does the pid.0.error pin say?
[14:06:08] <mrsun> anyone familiar with astrosyn 34pm-c042 steppers? :)
[14:06:13] <andypugh> also pid.0.output and pid.0.maxoutput
[14:06:36] <andypugh> mrsun: steppersa re steppers..
[14:06:49] <gene__> pid error, with igain back at 0, jumpy but in the area of 588, +- 10 maybe
[14:06:49] <mrsun> andypugh, yeah but i want to know holding torque etc =)
[14:06:54] <mrsun> cant find specs for it
[14:06:59] <Connor> gene__: Is this for a spindle? What speed controller do you have? I had to turn the acceleration on the speed controller ALL the way up.. so my PID wouldn't oscillate and so that it would get to full speed.
[14:07:55] <gene__> new board in lathe, calibrated according the thier instructs, works well by itself.
[14:08:06] <gene__> yes, lathe spindle
[14:08:26] <cradek> gene__: are your command and feedback units the same? you're not comparing rps with rpm are you?
[14:08:47] <gene__> encoder is a 3 slot optical, with a 39 slot+index slot on the spindle rear nose
[14:09:33] <gene__> Good Q. The units I see for the feedback appear to be scaled to rps
[14:10:06] <cradek> ok how about the commanded?
[14:10:25] <cradek> I ask because a consistent error of 600 means something's wildly wrong
[14:10:53] <gene__> That scale could be turned down, or the encoder.0.velocity could be sent, lemme check the hal file
[14:10:54] <cradek> playing with tuning is not going to work if you have wrong behavior if pid succeeds at making the error small
[14:12:48] <gene__> Yes, encoder.0.velocity is to pid.0.feedback. encoder.0.scale is 156, 39 slots * 4
[14:13:04] <cradek> ok what about command?
[14:13:23] <cradek> sounds like this definitely gives you rps
[14:13:34] <cradek> if your command is in rpm you're stuffed
[14:13:38] <gene__> pwmgen scale 1100, expected rpms max
[14:14:09] <andypugh> mrsun: You might be able to guess from here: http://www.eminebea.com/en/product/rotary/steppingmotor/pm/standard/
[14:14:41] <gene__> it seems to be rps at the feedback,Chris
[14:15:44] <cradek> dude
[14:15:52] <cradek> what are the units of the pid command?
[14:16:03] <andypugh> motion.spindle-speed-out is rpms
[14:16:25] <cradek> is that what you're using? are you scaling it before pid?
[14:16:25] <gene__> So I need to scale the velocity up by 60 for the feedback?
[14:16:34] <andypugh> Yes.
[14:16:44] <cradek> nah, scale the rpm one down
[14:16:48] <gene__> That will take a min
[14:16:59] <cradek> motion.spindle-speed-out-rps OUT float
[14:17:00] <cradek> Desired spindle speed in rotations per second
[14:17:09] <andypugh> Or, alternatively, get used to M6 S10 meaning "600 rpm"
[14:17:14] <cradek> or use this one
[14:17:39] <andypugh> Aha! somebody spotted this previously then
[14:17:53] <andypugh> gene__:
[14:17:54] <gene__> which goes in 1,101,201,301.401, etc to 1101 increments too coarse a setting IMO
[14:18:07] <gene__> listening
[14:18:18] <andypugh> motion-spindle-speed-out-rps
[14:18:41] <gene__> yes
[14:20:01] <andypugh> S1 gives me 0.016667 on that pin
[14:20:24] <gene__> less than my offset
[14:20:30] <andypugh> I don't see where your 1, 101, 201 is coming from
[14:20:51] <jdhNC> the + button in axis
[14:20:57] <gene__> that is the increment in commanded speed when the +- button are tapped.
[14:21:16] <andypugh> Ah, who uses that? Constant surface speed mode all the way with a lathe
[14:21:38] <gene__> I haven't takled that, yet...
[14:21:42] <andypugh> (you could have buttons marked "steel", "aluminium:", "brass" even :-)
[14:21:51] <Connor> can someone take a look at my files and tell me why when I send a M3 S2000 I ended up with it setting it to something like 2501 or so.. ?
[14:21:53] <Connor> http://www.ivdc.com/cnc/conversion/hal/
[14:22:19] <cradek> what do you mean "it setting it to"? where do you see the 2501 number?
[14:22:35] <gene__> Kewl Andy, but lets fix this first?
[14:22:53] <Connor> In the GUI for the target speed.
[14:23:00] <cradek> Connor: your urls are busted
[14:23:01] <andypugh> Connor: Link doesn't work, clicking the files gives me a homepage
[14:23:06] <Connor> let me fix something on server so the .hal files show up.
[14:24:00] <cradek> IMO the only time to be out of css is when drilling or tapping
[14:24:19] <andypugh> gene__: I thought it was fixed? You just need to net speed-rps to the PID (and use a much smaller FF0 to sit)
[14:25:45] <andypugh> Actually, you might want a bigger FF0.
[14:26:35] <andypugh> Be aware that it is perfectly OK for the _output_ of the PID to be in rpm, as long as both inputs are in the same units.
[14:27:12] <andypugh> So, if the PID scale is set to the max spindle RPM, then yout FF0 is going to be close to 60 for an rps-input
[14:29:23] <Connor> okay. look now.. renamed them with .txt extensions.
[14:29:48] <cradek> pid works to minimize the error, which is calculated by difference between command and feedback. you must scale everything so an error of zero gives the behavior you want.
[14:30:08] <cradek> that is why you couldn't tune it
[14:30:48] <andypugh> And your PID was trying to make 10 == 600, and not managing.
[14:32:33] <gene__> I just tried to setup a scale of 60 along with abs, and I'm getting a startup error that does not exist
[14:32:58] <andypugh> It would really help to tell us what doesn't exist
[14:33:16] <andypugh> And I am not entirely sure why you need the abs
[14:34:32] <cradek> seems like abs will give you positive command in m4 mode, but you'll have negative feedback, which won't work
[14:34:46] <gene__> I see it, same signal to two names. The abs is because all speeds are forward, a realy will do the reversing so spindle-command and encoder.velocity need to be in the positive realm
[14:35:09] <cradek> won't feedback velocity be negative?
[14:35:19] <cradek> it will if you've got quadrature
[14:36:41] <gene__> thats why it gets the abs treatment too
[14:37:05] <cradek> ...
[14:37:22] <andypugh> M4 gives a negative command, and with a negative feedback from the spindle, it will all just work...
[14:38:05] <gene__> ahh, right Andy, lemme fix that
[14:38:56] <andypugh> pwmgen is happy with negtive input.
[14:39:10] <andypugh> (IIRC)
[14:40:27] <andypugh> Yes, negative input to pwmgen gives non-zero duty cycle, and sets the "dir" bit to control your relay.
[14:41:35] <joe9> i have a toolpath for making a rectangular slot. I want to get some opinion on whether I am doing it correct (as per machinist practices). the backplot tells me that it does what it is supposed to.http://codepad.org/forGIOVR
[14:41:39] <andypugh> It's almost like this got thought out.
[14:42:24] <joe9> i am using G42 and counter-clockwise direction (climb milling).
[14:42:44] <gene__> I wasn't aware of that, but what happens if the relay doesn't switch because its not there? Then a reverse command is answered with a forward feedback :)
[14:42:59] <archivist> joe9, best not to use climb milling as a noob
[14:43:31] <gene__> So let me get my head around this:
[14:44:47] <andypugh> gene__: Then you run-away to peak revs. You can temporarily get round that by setting dc-min to zero
[14:45:07] <joe9> archivist: would you be able to load the gcode and see if you like the backplot?
[14:45:30] <joe9> wondering if there are any blunders that a machinist would notice in the backplot.
[14:45:31] <gene__> set pwmgen to rps numbers for scale, say 18.333 rps max, ok to the min-dc = 0.00
[14:45:47] <archivist> joe9, I dont have a machine powered up at the moment
[14:45:54] <joe9> ok, thanks.
[14:46:47] <gene__> then feedback, already scaled to rps if I could get rid of the noise would be correct?
[14:46:53] <andypugh> Connor: Your HAL has all the things wrong with it we have been discussing here. You can drop the scale and the sum2. Use the spindle-speed-rps output as the PID command, use the encoder rps-output as the feedback, and use FF0 to give the steady-state command. You then probably mainly want some I-gain in the PID to correct the error.
[14:47:48] <andypugh> gene__: Even with the noise it is probably going to be fine, with FFO and small I
[14:48:01] <andypugh> A bit of dither into a PID can actually help.
[14:48:14] <Connor> andypugh: That's why I put my config up there.. I knew I wasn't doing it right even though it kinda worked.
[14:48:15] <gene__> I believe thats enabled
[14:49:17] <gene__> So I may as well go where I can sit down and re-invent this wheel.
[14:49:23] <gene__> BBL
[14:49:26] <andypugh> Connor: Don't let it worry you, my machine is set up even worse than yours, as I did it years ago and haven't bothered correcting it.
[14:50:06] <Connor> I found this config somewhere on the net.. ugg..
[14:50:32] <Connor> okay, you said loose the scale and sum2
[14:50:49] <Connor> the setp pwmgen.0.scale 3000 ?
[14:51:41] <andypugh> pwmgen scale is rather arbitrary. I tend to use 1.
[14:52:17] <andypugh> But you can choose rpm or rps or % or volts if you want.
[14:52:36] <Connor> Would prefer RPM's. :)
[14:53:40] <andypugh> Stick with that then
[14:55:26] <andypugh> If 100% pwm gives you 3000rpm, then use a FF0 of 60 in the PID, and zero P I and D, and see how it works. It should be close-ish.
[14:58:36] <andypugh> Connor: Was it here? http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Closed_Loop_Spindle_Speed_Control
[14:59:17] <andypugh> That probably needs re-writing to take account of what we are discussing.,
[15:02:47] <Connor> andypugh: Yea.. That looks like it.
[15:03:28] <Connor> Yup, that's it.. It's got the sum2 in it..
[15:04:36] <Connor> okay, that is FF0 ?
[15:06:12] <Connor> andypugh: Yea, I can adjust the RPM on the motor controller to match 100% PWM.
[15:07:03] <Connor> I was using the PID stuff to account for lower speeds and inaccurate speed curve from the PWM -> analog conversion
[15:08:03] <andypugh> FF0 does almost exactlty the same thing as the sum2, but inside the PID. It adds command * FF0 to the output.
[15:09:30] <Connor> I need to add softstart too since I turned the Acceleration on the controller all the way up so that the PID had faster response time..
[15:10:49] <gene__> apparently thwe pid.0.min-dc pin has been renamed?
[15:11:16] <andypugh> Connor: Probably best done with a limit between motion.spindle and pid-command
[15:11:45] <andypugh> limit2, to be precise: http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/html/man/man9/limit2.9.html]
[15:12:03] <andypugh> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/html/man/man9/limit2.9.html without the spurious character
[15:12:53] <Connor> I'll have way more tweaking after I get my new encoder disk cut out and get it installed.. It'll be A B Z
[15:13:34] <gene__> actually, not pid.min-dc but pwmgen.min-dc, duh
[15:17:31] <gene__> Humm, motion.spindle-speed-rps starts at .0166, next step is 1.66, .0166 is stopped, 1.66 is wide open
[15:17:46] <andypugh> Ah, you don't want to be paying attention to the _details_ of what I say :-)
[15:18:12] <andypugh> What's your FF0 at the moment?
[15:18:27] <andypugh> And what do you see on pid.output?
[15:19:12] <gene__> Sorry Andy, to many things at once.
[15:19:33] <gene__> 0.95 IIRC but lemme check
[15:19:58] <gene__> yes, 0.95
[15:20:09] <andypugh> And pwmgen max scale?
[15:20:56] <andypugh> (or scale, whatever that pin is really called)
[15:20:58] <gene__> pid.out=9.5, pwmgen.scale is 19
[15:21:14] <andypugh> And that is giving full speed?
[15:21:47] <gene__> and its current turning about 500 rpm for a s10 command
[15:21:54] <mrsun> http://blog.cnccookbook.com/2012/05/07/shopmade-cnc-press-brake/ niiice =)
[15:21:54] <andypugh> feedback, Igain, Pgain?
[15:22:37] <gene__> feedback bounce all over the 300-600 range
[15:23:11] <gene__> I-Pgains 0.00
[15:24:03] <cradek> if you take out all this pid stuff and command various steady speeds, does it control well at all?
[15:24:04] <andypugh> feedback 300, command 1.66?
[15:24:08] <gene__> spindle feels pretty stiff
[15:24:41] <andypugh> I thought you said that feedback was in rps!
[15:26:28] <gene__> oh oh, I scaled it up I think, let me get rid of that, but just on the .95 FF0, speed is good but only starts at 2, needs more offset
[15:26:50] <andypugh> <wanders off muttering to wartch TV>
[15:30:43] <gene__> Humm, no feedback, this hal stuff is hard
[15:34:20] <gene__> Got that, now feedback is hovering around 0.00 +- up to 1.something
[15:35:01] <gene__> and I believe that s10m3 is close to 600 rpm, or 10 rps
[15:36:18] <andypugh> S needs to be in rpm still
[15:37:07] <gene__> Ok, where do I scale that? pwmgen.scale?
[15:38:04] <andypugh> No
[15:38:25] <andypugh> spindle-speed-rps is spindle-speed / 60
[15:38:40] <andypugh> spindle-speed == S. spindle-speed-rps == S / 60
[15:38:44] <JT-Shop> TV must be broken
[15:40:36] <andypugh> So, you don't need to do mental arithmetic in the MDI, if you want 600rpm, then M3 S600
[15:41:35] <gene__> at the settings now, s600 would be 600 rps, the building would need repairs :)
[15:42:08] <andypugh> No. Really not.
[15:42:26] <andypugh> Unless you have been ignoring nearly everything I have been saying.
[15:42:28] <gene__> only because it can't go that fast Andy
[15:43:09] <gene__> However feedback is actually hovering around 0!
[15:44:48] <gene__> Is this where I bring in some Igain?
[15:45:42] <DJ9DJ> gn8
[15:45:53] <andypugh> What is spindle-speed-rps with S10?
[15:46:57] <gene__> 10 in, and around 10 out, plus the noise of course
[15:47:37] <andypugh> So, you haven't actually linked spindle-speed-rps, you are still using spindle-speed?
[15:48:18] <gene__> lemme check
[15:50:01] <gene__> net spindle-cmd motion.spindle-speed-out abs.0.in
[15:50:45] <gene__> net spindle-abs-speed abs.0.out pid.0.command
[15:50:56] <andypugh> So, you haven't changed to rps, you haven't removed the abs, have you actually made any changesa t all?
[15:51:13] <gene__> s10 = 10 all the way trhough
[15:51:26] <andypugh> Yes, but you don't want 10rpm?
[15:51:34] <gene__> lots of changes, getting rid of trash mainly
[15:52:09] <gene__> That would be nice
[15:52:35] <gene__> I'll get rid of the abs in that path next
[15:55:11] <gene__> What do I set pwmgen.0.scale at for 1100 rpms max?
[15:57:18] <gene__> I'll put it back to the 1100 I had there when all this started
[15:58:27] <andypugh> 1100rpm is OK, if that it the max speed you want.
[15:58:47] <andypugh> You need feedback and command to be in the same units.
[15:59:23] <gene__> yes, now how do I scale the pid for an rpms input at command, and an prps input at feedback?
[16:00:14] <andypugh> You can't
[16:00:19] <andypugh> It isn't possible.
[16:00:38] <andypugh> But you said your feedback was 600?
[16:04:05] <gene__> I just scaled the feedback up to rpms, command is 600, spindle is about 600 feedback is 500-700, error is floating around 0.00 +- 100
[16:04:45] <gene__> I think I need some Igain, I can make it sag a bit
[16:07:07] <gene__> Igain lowers the speed slightly but doesn't seem to stiffen it any
[16:07:35] <andypugh> Yes, now that is it set up consistently, add some I.
[16:10:24] <gene__> Igain slows it some but the sag is still there, Pgain around 10 also slow it some, and stiffens it up, we are getting someplace now I believe
[16:10:25] <andypugh> You could remove the scale function, but then you wouldn't have an RPM figure to display, so that might not be desirable.
[16:11:26] <gene__> I set s100 from s600, it dropped, acted like it wanted to oscillate but stabilized
[16:11:43] <gene__> and looks close to 1 rps
[16:13:43] <gene__> some I gain, about .1 makes it very stiff at 1 rps
[16:13:47] <andypugh> Positive, I assume?
[16:13:54] <gene__> Yes
[16:14:54] <andypugh> Can you see the pid output increasing?
[16:16:15] <gene__> I think I'll carve this into the hal. I note that an s600m4 is stopped by the min-dc setting for the time being, good
[16:17:51] <gene__> pid.output has some noise but generally is 555
[16:18:17] <gene__> shoul;d I take the FF0 back to 1.0?
[16:19:15] <gene__> Humm, no effect, still 555 most of the time
[16:19:47] <andypugh> I would drop the FF0 a touch so that the PID increases it, just to avoid overspeed.
[16:21:33] <gene__> 0.5 drops the speed about 20%, set back to .9
[16:22:30] <gene__> This is working well I think, thanks Andy.
[16:23:48] <gene__> Got any ideas how to smooth up the z motion when threading? Theres a definite cyclic pattern to the cut threads
[16:25:39] <gene__> And a hint of q at 29.5 is too much, but lets not putz with this till I reduce the tools flat nose, it needs to be about 1/2 what it is now. Thanks again Andy
[16:26:51] <skunkworks> gene__: how may ppr is your encoder?
[16:29:19] <gene__> 39 slots, 156 ppr
[16:31:01] <gene__> I need to go away and sharpen the threading tool, this is the mills machine
[16:31:30] <Keknom> hello
[16:31:55] <Tom_itx> any solidworks experts in?
[16:32:21] * Tom_itx looks at JT-Shop
[16:35:47] <andypugh> If it's oscialllting, then a little bit if D (may need to be negative) might help. But a very small number.
[16:35:59] <JT-Shop> yep
[16:37:30] <Keknom> JT, DO you know how to do an extrusion on an imported 3d model?
[16:39:44] <JT-Shop> Keknom: you can't do that on an imported model
[16:40:02] <JT-Shop> what file format did you import?
[16:40:14] <Keknom> oh, that would explain why I was having issues doing it then , and IGES/STEP
[16:40:20] <Keknom> trying to add in a feature it failed to import
[16:40:51] <andypugh> You lose all the modelling data on anything imported with almost any software
[16:41:35] <JT-Shop> some file formats can be created into features then you can modify them
[16:41:44] <andypugh> gene__: What is netted to motion.spindle-revs ?
[16:42:01] <Keknom> ah, guess I'll just remake the part in solidworks then
[16:44:23] <JT-Shop> I think it was pro e files that you could convert...
[16:45:09] <Keknom> These were made in ProE, but only have academic license of solidworks, thus it will only import IGES/STEp but not ProE files
[16:45:14] <Tom_itx> cannon shot was cool jt
[16:45:49] <Tom_itx> maybe someone here would import it for you
[16:46:35] <Keknom> Think I might be able to use a school license to import ProE (For some unknown reason school licenses can import diffirent file types than student licenses)
[16:47:34] <JT-Shop> I just checked a pro e and that was not the one that made features for me the other day
[16:49:11] <tjb1> Is there any problem with using a wireless mouse/keyboard on the cnc controlling computer?
[16:49:34] <Keknom> I don't beleie so TjB1, CNC router I use has both
[16:50:03] <cradek> I wouldn't use a wireless device to control jogging, because it might fail at the wrong time
[16:50:08] <JT-Shop> have one on my CHNC and the MB is inside the machine!
[16:50:29] <cradek> but there's no other problem than that
[16:50:37] <alex4nder> tjb1: I use a Playstation 3 controller to control my mill,but I use it wired on purpose because if the machine ever misses a key release, bad things could happen.
[16:50:46] <alex4nder> USB HID is flakey enough as it is
[16:50:49] <JT-Shop> I use my MPG to jog most of the time
[16:50:53] <tjb1> Alright
[16:51:12] <tjb1> I have a wired xbox controller but I don't think the plugin I found works on linuxcnc
[16:51:35] <andypugh> hal_input is quite likely to work
[16:51:41] * JT-Shop goes to the cannoneer meeting
[16:52:38] <tjb1> Guess its time to learn this hal stuff
[16:55:03] <Keknom> Anyone have experince using TechnoCNC routers with linuxCNC?
[16:58:41] <tjb1> Wow, my table is going to use $630 in steel and another $400 in extrusions
[16:59:36] <tjb1> May be dropping to .125 wall instead of 3/16
[17:00:15] <andypugh> I wonder if there is an advantage in filling the frame with concrete?
[17:00:32] <andypugh> Keknom: No, but I am sure it can be done.
[17:02:01] <tjb1> Im really finding out how bad shipping is...
[17:02:13] <tjb1> For $150 in gear rack, they want $200 shipping
[17:03:13] <alex4nder> tjb1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gODZJ_gBBA
[17:03:26] <andypugh> Keknom: However, why not use the controller that the router is shipped with? I doubt that it is particularly inferior to EMC2.
[17:04:08] <Keknom> Curiosity how it would work/ issue that computer it is on is unupdated windows XP machine with service pack 2
[17:04:41] <tjb1> Is that using bluetooth?
[17:04:56] <alex4nder> this is using wired USB
[17:05:01] <andypugh> Do the step-dir pulses go through the parport, or a custom interface?
[17:05:02] <alex4nder> but BT works, I just don't trust BT
[17:05:45] <Keknom> custom interface
[17:06:07] <andypugh> alex4nder: I have the back-buttons set up to control speed range. Top fast, bottom medium, both super-slow. That way you have to press a button and move a joystick to jog, which saves trouble.
[17:06:42] <andypugh> Keknom: That might be the sticking point. You would have to write a driver, or replace the interface.
[17:06:48] <tjb1> Oh I didn't watch enough of the video to see the cord
[17:07:08] <tjb1> Using .125 wall I save about $150 on the steel
[17:07:10] <Keknom> ah, shall stick with winfail then, writing a driver is a tad beyond me lol
[17:07:11] <alex4nder> andypugh: that sounds cool, I think I'm going to do some combination of that.. but use the PS3 'power' button to act as joystick enable.
[17:07:33] <alex4nder> and just have speed based on proportion
[17:07:37] <alex4nder> up to like 60 IPM
[17:07:55] <andypugh> Keknom: It can be surprisingly easy to write a driver for a memory-mapped card.
[17:07:56] <tjb1> PS3 triggers are just on/off aren't they?
[17:08:03] <alex4nder> no, they're all analog
[17:08:11] <tjb1> The triggers?
[17:08:23] <alex4nder> but there's a boolean mirror of every button as well
[17:08:32] <alex4nder> I use the right joystick as my X11 mouse.
[17:08:46] <alex4nder> tjb1: every button is pressure sensitive.
[17:09:16] <andypugh> alex4nder: I still have analog control, it is just the speed rangwe which changes. It's all just like documented in http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Simple_Remote_Pendant
[17:09:25] <tjb1> Anyone capable of doing material testing in solid works? :)
[17:09:37] <alex4nder> andypugh: I understand
[17:09:41] <alex4nder> I'm just going to do it differently.
[17:09:42] <andypugh> FEA you mean?
[17:10:04] <alex4nder> so to use the analog stick, you have to press the power button with your right hand
[17:10:09] <andypugh> I have FEA in Inventor, but that is no help, I guess
[17:10:40] <tjb1> I have no idea, I drew most of it at school but no way to test it
[17:12:05] <r00t4rd3d> finally all the part to finish my build
[17:12:53] <tjb1> I would hate to start on xp sp0 and have to do all the updates...
[17:13:40] <r00t4rd3d> you would get the latest sp and be done quickly
[17:14:29] <tjb1> Im on sp3 and have 150 updates
[17:15:24] <r00t4rd3d> it would probably be the same if you were on sp0
[17:15:53] <Keknom> tjb1 I've done some stress analysis before in solidworks
[17:16:11] <r00t4rd3d> i hate waiting for the SP to install, thats killer
[17:16:22] <r00t4rd3d> it has gotten better the last couple
[17:16:34] <tjb1> I hate having to download 130 security updates
[17:16:34] <Keknom> my school is clever and just blocks window update's site as freeware
[17:16:55] <tjb1> Keknom, would you like to do a test on my table? :)
[17:17:17] <Keknom> I could attempt to, I'm not the best solidworks user but could give it a try
[17:18:55] <andypugh> tjb1: You can get "slipstreamed" XP with SP3 included. I don't know how, because I have never cared.
[17:20:05] <tjb1> I'm almost done, doesn't matter
[17:20:26] <r00t4rd3d> you can make a cd with the latest sp and all the latest updates and have them auto install on a fresh install
[17:21:14] <tjb1> The problem is downloading them
[17:21:20] <tjb1> Im tethered through my phone
[17:21:24] <r00t4rd3d> lol
[17:21:31] <r00t4rd3d> capped?
[17:21:56] <r00t4rd3d> verizon wireless so probably
[17:22:10] <tjb1> I'm on unlimited :)
[17:22:19] <r00t4rd3d> truly unlimited
[17:22:29] <tjb1> who knows
[17:22:37] <tjb1> its so slow..i don't know if they throttle me
[17:22:48] <r00t4rd3d> just the metod
[17:22:51] <r00t4rd3d> method
[17:23:12] <tjb1> Keknom, I'm trying to upload it to dropbox
[17:23:36] <tjb1> I have a crazy setup here, iPhone sharing wifi to macbook pro which is hooked by ethernet to desktop sharing internet
[17:23:52] <r00t4rd3d> anyone use Origin and want a 70% off code?
[17:26:52] <tjb1> Should be ordering this beauty this weekend http://www.harrisweldingsupplies.com/lincoln-precision-tig-225-tig-welder-ready-pak.aspx
[17:27:26] <r00t4rd3d> you know how to use that ?
[17:27:31] <tjb1> Nope
[17:27:35] <r00t4rd3d> sweet
[17:27:50] <tjb1> dad wanted to get a tig welder
[17:28:01] <tjb1> Cant be that hard…the welding kids at my school can do it
[17:28:13] <r00t4rd3d> learning curve
[17:28:25] <tjb1> They aren't the brightest bulbs on the tree…you might call them the one that burns out and takes the rest down with them
[17:28:40] <r00t4rd3d> more so when you get an advanced piece like a Lincoln.
[17:29:01] <r00t4rd3d> any retard can wire fed weld
[17:29:12] <r00t4rd3d> Im an expert
[17:29:16] <r00t4rd3d> :)
[17:29:32] <tjb1> we have a lincoln 175 mig
[17:29:36] <tjb1> Keknom: https://www.dropbox.com/s/d9ttmrlnlnhm67o/Table%20Assembly.SLDASM
[17:29:43] <tjb1> Not sure if that will work
[17:30:13] <tjb1> Whats the gas for big?
[17:30:16] <tjb1> *tig
[17:30:28] <tjb1> 75 argon, 25 co2?
[17:30:28] <andypugh> Argon, generally
[17:30:44] <r00t4rd3d> matters how hot you want it
[17:30:53] <andypugh> You only use CO2 mix for MIG, AFAIK
[17:31:03] <tjb1> Is there a gas you can use to weld both steel and alum with the big?
[17:31:10] <Keknom> tjb1 forgot to send some of the linked files
[17:31:12] <tjb1> Damn spellcheck, tig
[17:31:25] <andypugh> Yes, pure argon is fine for Ali and steel (and Ti)
[17:31:27] <tjb1> You need all the parts?
[17:31:53] <r00t4rd3d> ive never tried welding aluminum
[17:31:56] <Keknom> probably, with the assembly file it just included the mates, but nothing else
[17:32:14] <Keknom> r00t4rd3d from what I've seen and heard aluminum wields don't work to well
[17:32:51] <tjb1> About a minute Keknom
[17:33:03] <r00t4rd3d> they work great if you do it right and have the right welder
[17:33:33] <r00t4rd3d> you ever fly in a plane?
[17:33:35] <Keknom> oh didn't know that, only ones I've really seen were last minute ones done at battlebots competitions with MIG wielders
[17:33:51] <r00t4rd3d> you cant weld alum properly with a mig
[17:34:00] <tjb1> dump trailers
[17:34:05] <tjb1> most are all aluminum
[17:34:11] <tjb1> and flatbeds
[17:34:39] <Keknom> that would explain why quality of wields I saw were crap then...
[17:34:45] <r00t4rd3d> ya
[17:35:32] <r00t4rd3d> i have a shitty little mig and it would bitch slap me if I tried to touch aluminum with it.
[17:35:59] <tjb1> Keknom: https://www.dropbox.com/s/t2xmh0jjpoxuo6c/Table%20Parts.zip
[17:36:17] <andypugh> My motorcycle frame is held together with aluminium welds, several feet of them. They work.
[17:36:18] <Keknom> lol, worst I've ever seen was someone who attempted to wield grade 5 titanium with a mig wielder
[17:36:43] <tjb1> I know for mig aluminum it requires 100% argon
[17:36:49] <tjb1> and verrrrrry clean
[17:37:04] <r00t4rd3d> i got the rest of my router parts today but im too tired to go work on my setup
[17:37:05] <andypugh> Ti is difficult with TIG, it welds beautifully, then cracks. You have to shield both sides of the weld.
[17:37:36] <r00t4rd3d> my welder dont even take gas
[17:37:52] <r00t4rd3d> very high quality
[17:38:05] <tjb1> Have you ever mig welded with gas?
[17:38:10] <r00t4rd3d> yup
[17:38:18] <r00t4rd3d> stick weld too w gas
[17:38:19] <tjb1> quite a difference isn't there
[17:38:22] <r00t4rd3d> yeah
[17:38:47] <andypugh> my Robotwars robot had a wierd aluminium motor pulley (top hat shaped, so the belt ran round the middle of the motor) which I MIG welded using CO2 mix. It never failed.
[17:39:08] <Keknom> andypugh what weight class was yours?
[17:39:13] <andypugh> Heavyweight
[17:39:36] <Keknom> nice, I just do 15lb, 12lb, 1 lb, and 3lb..., aka sad little ones
[17:40:17] <andypugh> 100kg: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CvT0tLQB1I
[17:42:22] <Keknom> Is the blue one years?
[17:42:25] <Keknom> yours*
[17:42:34] <andypugh> No, we were SMIDSY
[17:43:01] <Keknom> like how smidsy is fairly compact compared to the other
[17:43:35] <Keknom> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXahYHWGbOk&feature=player_embedded Purple one in the video is my team's
[17:43:59] <tjb1> which one are you andy?
[17:44:01] <Keknom> we had 3 other robots at the same competition but they didn't fair as well....
[17:44:12] <tjb1> Keknom: did that open for you now?
[17:44:37] <Keknom> it had some slight errors due to it claiming a few imported part swere not present
[17:44:40] <Keknom> but for the most part its there
[17:46:03] <andypugh> The purple one is cool, and well driven.
[17:46:21] <Keknom> thanks, I wasn't the driver for that match though..
[17:46:52] <Keknom> did do all the CNC machining for the frame though
[17:47:10] <andypugh> CNC was hardly available when we did ours.
[17:47:59] <andypugh> I am not sure when it was? 12 years ago?
[17:48:20] <Keknom> there were CNCs then, one I used for that one is 10 years old
[17:48:41] <andypugh> I think all the teams could do far better machines now, party because of the arrival of Arduino etc
[17:49:05] <andypugh> Oh, CNC existed, but ordinary folk dodn't get access, or build their own.
[17:49:45] <Keknom> must have been a lot of fun making the frame without a CNC then.... , our robot this year couldn't of even been made without a wire EDM
[17:50:11] <andypugh> spot-welded folded stainless.
[17:51:05] <tjb1> Damn that purple thing...
[17:51:34] <tjb1> Is that the matador?
[17:51:53] <Keknom> we also had 3 other robots at that competition although , one failed to have it's weapon spin up, one had the frame bent up , and the other had it's grade 5 titanium armor bent and cracked
[17:52:01] <Keknom> and the purple one is Still N' Shock 2
[17:52:59] <andypugh> The transmission was 3-speed bicycle hubs welded to the frame with kart wheels welded to the sprockets in a portal-axle type arrangement.
[17:53:56] <andypugh> So the internal transmission was relatively lightly loaded. It worked well, the robot is still fighting. (but we sold it on years ago)
[17:54:22] <Keknom> Didn't know there was a market for used battlebots lol
[17:54:30] <Keknom> also frame of our SNS2 https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/s720x720/540541_330670580326072_100001493995017_925616_2052398619_n.jpg
[17:55:38] <tjb1> Is that a lawn mower blade on the front of still n shock?
[17:56:00] <andypugh> http://robotwars.wikia.com/wiki/S.M.I.D.S.Y.
[17:56:37] <andypugh> Ah, you see, what you have there is Engineering. We had lashed-together-scrap
[17:58:17] <Keknom> no, the blade on SNS2 is a solid piece of s7 that was machined on a wire edm
[17:58:47] <Keknom> https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/306628_330670860326044_100001493995017_925626_1518866460_n.jpg
[17:59:29] <tjb1> That thing is pretty bad
[17:59:37] <tjb1> Where do you go to school?
[17:59:55] <Keknom> Plum borough senior highschool
[18:00:47] <Keknom> machining on the wire EDM was done by a sponsor
[18:04:04] <gene__> Andy, just saw youir question "net encoder.turns-motion encoder.0.position encoder.spindle-revs"
[18:06:12] <andypugh> encoder.0.position-interpolated may be a little smoother
[18:06:59] <gene__> I'll give that a shot
[18:10:53] <joe9> is there a better way to get the tool radius of a tool: #5400 = #<tool>
[18:10:54] <joe9> #<tool_radius> = [#5410/2]
[18:11:08] <joe9> i cannot do that as the #5400 is read-only.
[18:12:22] <andypugh> Do you want to get, or set?
[18:13:05] <joe9> i want to get. andypugh
[18:13:42] <joe9> the tool is loaded with G20 L10
[18:14:15] <alex4nder> joe9: how are those PCB engravers going?
[18:14:20] <alex4nder> you milled any board yet?
[18:14:23] <joe9> I want to get the tool radius of the tool. the G20 is: G20 G10 L1 P1 Z0 R0.0625
[18:16:26] <gene__> Z is now running rougher but the roughness is higher frequency rather than spindle related wowowo's
[18:16:55] <andypugh> joe9: I thought there might be a predefined #<_xxxxx> parameter for tool radius, but I am not seeing it: http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/devel/html/gcode/overview.html#_predefined_named_parameters_a_id_sec_predefined_named_parameters_a
[18:17:29] <joe9> the #5410 is the tool diameter of the currently loaded tool. but, I am not able to figure out how to load the tool.
[18:17:44] <joe9> other than having to use G42 or G41
[18:17:53] <andypugh> "load the tool"?
[18:18:11] <jdhNC> T
[18:18:15] <joe9> such as "T1 M6". is there a different mechanism to load the tool?
[18:18:24] <andypugh> G43?
[18:19:32] <joe9> andypugh: exactly what I need. thanks.
[18:22:25] <joe9> http://codepad.org/2YRwg0Og andypugh, this gives me an error saying that the "length of cutter compensation is not greater than the tool radius"
[18:22:32] <joe9> whereas, #<tool_radius> = [0.0625]
[18:22:35] <joe9> works
[18:22:43] <joe9> G20 G10 L1 P1 Z0 R0.0625
[18:22:51] <joe9> is what I had earlier in the code.
[18:22:59] <joe9> and #<tool> = 1
[18:23:58] <gene__> Andy: Z is now running rougher but the roughness is higher frequency rather than spindle related wowowo's
[18:24:43] <andypugh> Not directly relevant to the question, but T1 prepares tool 1, M6 triggers the tool-change macro, and G43 applies the offsets. If you don't give G43 a H number then it applies the offsets of the loaded tool.
[18:25:39] <andypugh> gene__: Are you anywhere near max axis speed? Alternatively, try a higher spindle speed.
[18:26:41] <andypugh> joe9: I can't say I understand that error message, is that exactly what it said?
[18:27:23] <joe9> andypugh: http://codepad.org/fUqsJPPY works.
[18:27:41] <joe9> but, without the T and M6, it gives me the above message.
[18:27:58] <joe9> i am under the impression that T.. and M6 are needed if you have a tool changer.
[18:28:08] <joe9> I do not have a tool changer. I do it manually.
[18:28:12] <andypugh> Me too.
[18:29:02] <andypugh> The error sounds a bit like the one you get when the move after the G40 is less than the cutter radius (too-short entry move)
[18:29:31] <andypugh> I do hope that the error looks at the G43 values, not the T values...
[18:30:17] <andypugh> However, I always use M6 Tn G43 reflexively, as the manual toolchange dialogue handily pauses the programme and gives you a prompt.
[18:31:06] <gene__> axis was about 7ipm, cranked spindle up, might have helped, but x backup is the limit I think
[18:31:42] <andypugh> How much run-up are you giving Z?
[18:32:10] <andypugh> I don't suppose your accel values are a bit conservative?
[18:32:16] <joe9> andypugh: if you are interested, this is the full code: http://codepad.org/rsv2ilzI
[18:32:37] <joe9> line 36-38 are the relevant ones to us.
[18:34:14] <andypugh> So, you are doing cutter-radius compensation in G-code?
[18:34:16] <gene__> about .2 for z, and maybe, x is in the 7 or 8 range, its z that has the weight, so about 3 is max
[18:34:49] <joe9> andypugh: no, I am not. I am just using the tool_radius to calculate the stepover.
[18:35:05] <andypugh> Ah, OK.
[18:35:17] <gene__> x backout is over half a turn now
[18:35:39] <gene__> and this for a 28 tpi thread
[18:36:54] <andypugh> gene__: That's good compared to manual threading. You basically always end in a groove then.
[18:38:32] <andypugh> joe9: You probably want to make that file a named sub in a same-name file, then you can call it from other G-code as a subroutine.
[18:39:02] <gene__> Yeah, but this thread on the real piece needs to be tight enough to take a 15kpsi pulse for 2 milliseconds
[18:39:08] <joe9> andypugh: i will do that once I can get it to work.
[18:40:22] <gene__> nipple for a front loading BP rifle
[18:41:31] <joe9> cradek: any thoughts, please? I know the tool number. I am trying to get its' diameter or radius.
[18:41:52] <joe9> the #5410 global variable is available for the loaded tool.
[18:42:10] <joe9> i can use G42 with the tool. but, am not sure if there is a different way to load the tool.
[18:42:49] <joe9> cradek, i tried these different things to get the radius, but could not. http://codepad.org/3OJNPdWl
[18:43:18] <andypugh> joe9: The problem may be that the G1 X#<x1> move is too short compared to the tool radius. Also, I wouldn't bother with the D#<tool> part, that is assumed to match the current tool.
[18:44:24] <andypugh> gene__: I don't know what you are trying to do, but you probably need an end-groove for the thread.
[18:46:32] <andypugh> joe9: I think you are just confusing the issue with the D and H words. I am not sure why they are ever necessary
[18:47:08] <gene__> I have the OEM part in my hand, no end groove, withdraw is about 1/4 turn and about 1/2 the pitch from the shoulder.
[18:47:09] <joe9> andypugh: i just want the tool diameter of a tool. i think I need the D to specify which tool.
[18:47:41] <andypugh> If you leave it out, the currentlu loaded tool is assumed.
[18:48:27] <andypugh> #5410 ought to be updated as soon as G43 is issued.
[18:48:36] <gene__> X max-vel is 18 ipm
[18:49:01] <andypugh> (and the G43 will take the same H number as was used with T unless you specify otherwise)
[18:49:12] <gene__> Needs more, can give it more when couplings arrive.
[18:49:37] <andypugh> gene__: It's accelleration you need, not speed.
[18:50:16] <andypugh> gene__: They probably used a faster lathe for the OEM part.
[18:56:40] <gene__> They may have. I just raised the accels by about 2 each on the x, and managed to slip it a couple times, I think in the backlash move
[18:57:14] <joe9> this code: http://codepad.org/EStQnyVn gives this message: http://codepad.org/sgXgUNEI
[18:58:02] <gene__> Its also down to 58F here and my T shirt says its time to hit the nice warm house for a bowl of soup, tomorrow is another day Thanks, a bunch.
[18:58:55] <joe9> G20 G10 L1 P1 Z0 R0.0625
[18:59:02] <joe9> i had that earlier in the program.
[19:00:04] <andypugh> Ah, I don't use backlash comp, so don't have any epxerience with it.
[19:03:02] <andypugh> joe9: I think you need a g43 after the G20. That sets the tool table, it doesn't apply it to the current tool.
[19:10:46] <jdhNC> have you tried cutting anything yet?
[19:32:27] <alex4nder> jdhNC: mills aren't for cutting
[19:32:32] <alex4nder> they're for epic time wasting.
[19:41:57] <tjb1> anyone know of a barcode scanner that works on ubuntu
[19:42:31] <djdelorie> the original cuecat works just fine with any linux, once you hack out the encryption chip
[19:43:29] <Jymmm> not encryption
[19:43:38] <Jymmm> encoded
[19:44:18] <Tom_itx> his was the encrypted model
[19:44:30] <tjb1> any other options?
[19:46:20] <Tom_itx> http://tuxmobil.org/barcode_readers_unix.html
[19:47:46] <tjb1> So do some of you load programs with a bar code scanner?
[19:48:14] <Tom_itx> no
[19:54:38] <alangarf> tjb1, look at Symbol they have plenty of USB/PS2 barcode scanners
[19:54:45] <alangarf> they just act like a keyboard
[19:55:08] <tjb1> Why is this guy so dead set on removing the serial number from the cuecat?
[19:55:09] <tjb1> http://www.sujal.net/tech/declaw/
[19:55:36] <Jymmm> sigh
[19:57:06] <Jymmm> Ok, the cuecat is not ENCRYPTED, but it originally had a unique prefixed tracking number before the actual UPC code. It was a marketing thing at the time. But, if you mode it, it removes the unique tracking id and leaves you with a pure UPC code.
[19:57:23] <Jymmm> s/mode/mod/
[19:58:13] <Jymmm> you can buy a moded usb cutecat on ebay for $10
[19:58:57] <Jymmm> modded also called "declawed"
[19:59:23] <Jymmm> http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Modified-USB-Barcode-Scanner-Cue-Cat-CueCat-Reader-/251053147619?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a73ef05e3
[20:00:03] <Jymmm> no software or drivers needed as is emulates a keyboard
[20:00:23] <FinboySlick> The brits took away my Top Gear... Andy, go manifest in the streets.
[20:00:29] <roycroft> the replacement touchscreen controller arrived today, and they shipped two of them
[20:00:31] <Jymmm> when you scan a barcode it returns the code and a newline character
[20:00:35] <roycroft> i guess they want to make sure it works
[20:00:55] * roycroft should go find out soon
[20:03:13] <tjb1> Thanks Jymmm
[20:03:33] <tjb1> Im going to "neuter" mine.
[20:16:11] <ReadError_> hey alex4nder
[20:16:15] <ReadError_> what was that mobo you got again?
[20:16:22] <ReadError_> i got an amazon gift cert at work
[20:17:12] <alex4nder> ReadError_: DN2800MT
[20:17:34] <alex4nder> ReadError_: i'll put up a recipe for my entire machine one of these days
[20:20:02] <r00t4rd3d> ReadError_, http://i.imgur.com/5f7hY.jpg
[20:20:13] <ReadError_> nice
[20:20:47] <r00t4rd3d> ive gotten more done since that pic and got the rest of my needed parts
[20:21:00] <r00t4rd3d> i think
[20:49:57] <joe9> what is the recommended stepover for face milling?
[20:50:06] <joe9> I notice that with 1.5, I get notches in the middle.
[20:50:14] <joe9> 1.5 of tool radius, I meant.
[20:51:50] <alex4nder> where are the notches? at the overlap?
[20:51:55] <joe9> yes.
[20:52:08] <joe9> i mean between 2 runs when going from inside to the outside.
[20:52:39] <joe9> i am trying with 1 now. just curious, if there is a standard number or formula to calculate it.
[20:53:06] <alex4nder> are you just trying to get a nice finish?
[20:54:14] <joe9> yes.
[20:54:52] <joe9> "from inside to outside", I meant that I am milling in concentric circle'ish and I am ging from the inside circle to the outside.
[20:55:24] <joe9> i am using a cutter (instead of a miller) and that could be a reason for the notches too.
[20:55:27] <alex4nder> how big is your face mill?
[20:55:45] <joe9> 0.0625
[20:55:49] <joe9> is the tool radius.
[20:55:58] <joe9> 1/16 inch
[20:56:03] <alex4nder> oh
[20:56:10] <Tom_itx> that's not a face cutter :)
[20:56:34] <alex4nder> joe9: you're going to get machining marks
[20:56:42] <Tom_itx> tool deflection comes into play too
[20:56:49] <Tom_itx> use a really short cutter
[20:57:16] <alex4nder> yah, or one with a giant radius, like a fly cutter
[20:57:29] <joe9> i was looking for a smooth finish. I am just starting out with a cutter to get a feel for how the program will work. I plan on buying some end mills tomorrow for the actual run.
[20:57:31] <alex4nder> or a face mill. ;)
[20:58:05] <joe9> face mills are expensive.
[20:58:09] <Tom_itx> yeah you'll get a better finish with a radius'd cutter whatever type it is
[20:58:18] <Tom_itx> milling is expensive
[20:58:22] <Tom_itx> get used to it
[20:58:45] <Tom_itx> shell mills are, you could make a fly cutter
[20:59:20] <Tom_itx> we used alot of insert shell mills
[20:59:38] <Tom_itx> from around 3" up to about 6" iirc
[21:00:15] <alex4nder> joe9: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koYGLVGkRsI#t=4m16
[21:00:40] <alex4nder> that's how you get a finish like that
[21:01:23] <FinboySlick> For the electronics guys: I'm looking for a 3.3v to 5v RS232 converter that will do all pins (or at least DCD on top of TX/RX)
[21:01:28] <alex4nder> you keep constant load, and avoid witness marks.
[21:01:48] <alex4nder> FinboySlick: 3.3v to 5v input on TX and RX?
[21:02:37] <Tom_itx> alex4nder, that just uses standard tool steel right?
[21:02:38] <FinboySlick> alex4nder: Yeah, something like this: http://www.sparkfun.com/products/449 But that converts the control lines too.
[21:02:59] <Tom_itx> or carbide as i see now :)
[21:03:09] <Tom_itx> with a radius
[21:03:51] <Tom_itx> alex4nder, did you check for flatness when you were done?
[21:04:15] <Tom_itx> we cut alot of test specimens similar to that only thinner and that was always an issue
[21:04:26] <alex4nder> Tom_itx: that's not me, that's a tormach demo video
[21:04:30] <Tom_itx> oh
[21:04:39] <alex4nder> it's just the quickest thing I could find
[21:04:41] <Tom_itx> and here i thought you were showing off :D
[21:04:44] <alex4nder> haha
[21:04:44] <alex4nder> no
[21:04:55] <alex4nder> FinboySlick: ok, that converter sucks ass.
[21:04:57] <alex4nder> (tm)
[21:05:10] <alex4nder> like, it's not even RS232
[21:05:12] <Tom_itx> we had to cut specimens from both grain directions so they could take them back and break them
[21:05:20] <FinboySlick> alex4nder: Yes, I only used it as an example of what I need.
[21:05:35] <alex4nder> FinboySlick: http://www.maxim-ic.com/datasheet/index.mvp/id/1798
[21:05:44] <FinboySlick> I have a 3.3v device that will talk rs232 with a pc, and also send a signal to the DCD line of the PC's serial port.
[21:07:16] <FinboySlick> alex4nder: That only seems to convert tx and rx.
[21:07:47] <alex4nder> FinboySlick: why do you think TX, RX, DCD, RTS, CTS, and whatever, aren't just all the same electrically?
[21:07:48] <FinboySlick> Though if it's dual, I guess I could use the extra tx.
[21:08:02] <alex4nder> because they're all the same. ;)
[21:08:25] <ReadError_> scumbag amazon
[21:08:28] <ReadError_> Y U NO HAVE MOBO
[21:08:47] <FinboySlick> alex4nder: Oh I know they're the same electrically. What I mean is that I need to more than two lines.
[21:09:30] <FinboySlick> And if I can buy it ready made, I certainly wouldn't mind just a DB9 connector with corresponding 3.3v solderpoint at the other end of the board.
[21:10:22] <alex4nder> FinboySlick: that link I gave you has parts with 8 TX and 10 RX, respectively
[21:10:32] <alex4nder> I guess I'm not sure what you need beyond that.
[21:11:53] <Tom_itx> hold on, max makes one that would do all 4 lines iirc
[21:12:23] <alex4nder> Tom_itx: of course they do
[21:12:27] <alex4nder> I don't get what the issue is.
[21:12:44] <Tom_itx> me either
[21:12:57] <FinboySlick> No issue, I got that.
[21:13:01] <Tom_itx> you just need a 3.3v part
[21:13:44] <Tom_itx> i made one in a clamshell but it's 5v and 2 lines
[21:14:07] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/misc_stuff/rs232_3.jpg
[21:15:37] <Tom_itx> dude i know made a 3.3v one that's data powered
[21:16:13] <Tom_itx> with all 4 lines
[21:16:34] <FinboySlick> Tom_itx: Pretty much what I'd be looking for (with the extra input line on the PC side). I just thought this is something people would use a lot so I could buy it ready made.
[21:17:07] <Tom_itx> not so much anymore
[21:17:17] <Tom_itx> USB took care of that
[21:17:21] <FinboySlick> Yeah.
[21:17:58] <Tom_itx> i asked him but he hasn't replied yet
[21:18:01] <FinboySlick> Tom_itx: Did the PCB come with the chip?
[21:18:08] <Tom_itx> ?
[21:18:12] <Tom_itx> i made it all
[21:18:37] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/misc_stuff/rs232_2.jpg
[21:18:42] <FinboySlick> Tom_itx: Fancy printing the labels as well then.
[21:19:02] <FinboySlick> OK, you made lots.
[21:19:10] <Tom_itx> a few not alot
[21:19:27] <Tom_itx> that's just part of the silkscreen
[21:19:54] <FinboySlick> Is there typically a +12v on the pc side or is it 5v? My Alix seems to use 5v so I'm confused.
[21:20:00] <Tom_itx> 12
[21:20:21] <Tom_itx> laptops don't always follow that
[21:20:37] <Tom_itx> if you read the standard, the voltage is a pretty wide range
[21:21:11] <alex4nder> yah
[21:21:33] <FinboySlick> This is starting to warrant making my own.
[21:21:48] <Tom_itx> dude probably has some left
[21:22:08] <Tom_itx> i never had a need for a 3.3v one or i would have made a few
[21:22:50] <FinboySlick> I think the typical 4 lines ones convert CTS and RTS.
[21:22:59] <Tom_itx> yeah
[21:23:18] <FinboySlick> I need DCD so I'll likely have to make my own regardless.
[21:23:46] <Tom_itx> what's the max3221? i don't remember
[21:23:57] <Tom_itx> i have a layout for one of those too
[21:25:16] <FinboySlick> Spec sheet says ESD protection, operates from 2.5 to 5.5v
[21:25:25] <FinboySlick> Just a transciever.
[21:25:59] <Tom_itx> most of them are
[21:28:48] <jdhNC> why DCD?
[21:29:01] <FinboySlick> GPS pps output.
[21:29:10] <FinboySlick> Linux wants it on DCD.
[21:29:26] <Tom_itx> not nearly as common as rts cts
[21:29:49] <ReadError_> soooo
[21:29:52] <ReadError_> this worked out well
[21:29:57] <ReadError_> i upgraded my macbook pro to 16gb ram
[21:30:06] <ReadError_> so now i have 2x2gb ddr3 dimms ;)
[21:30:12] <ReadError_> perfect for this microatx
[21:31:38] <FinboySlick> If I can fit it all in this, I'm in business: http://media.digikey.com/photos/Assmann%20Photos/AT-23067-R.jpg
[21:32:18] <Tom_itx> well if you can't....
[21:32:27] <Tom_itx> that's huge
[21:32:50] <FinboySlick> If it doesn't split, it'll be tricky getting all the right wires to the right places though.
[21:33:05] <Tom_itx> it does
[21:33:19] <Tom_itx> look around the screws
[21:33:27] <Tom_itx> snaps together
[21:33:54] <ReadError_> prolly not
[21:33:59] <Tom_itx> you may have to use finer pitch chips than you want to
[21:34:07] <ReadError_> since that rj-11 connector
[21:34:12] <ReadError_> or rj 45
[21:34:16] <FinboySlick> 45
[21:34:26] <ReadError_> ya too many wires for 11
[21:38:05] <FinboySlick> I don't imagine the rj45 side splitting in half so I'm still a bit curious as to how it'll open. I guess I'll just have to order one.
[21:40:39] <Tom_itx> i bet the rj45 fits in the end like the rs232 and the clamshell snaps over it. i could be wrong
[21:40:59] <Tom_itx> it just looks like it's split on the side
[21:41:36] <Tom_itx> i'll let you be the guinea pig and find out
[21:42:29] <FinboySlick> Time to put that high speed spindle to use I guess. Gonna mill my first pcb.
[21:56:43] <r00t4rd3d> http://i.imgur.com/fISG2.jpg
[21:57:43] <Tom_itx> a kit?
[21:57:50] <FinboySlick> What's the painted yellow material?
[21:57:54] <r00t4rd3d> all skill
[21:57:56] <FinboySlick> Numinum?
[21:57:59] <r00t4rd3d> mdf
[21:58:22] <Tom_itx> assembly skill?
[21:58:39] <r00t4rd3d> no ive made it from scratch with my brains
[21:58:47] <Tom_itx> good stuff
[21:58:59] <djdelorie> brains... that explains why it's yellow...
[21:59:02] <Tom_itx> single stack steppers may be a little weak
[21:59:11] <Tom_itx> what's it for? milling?
[21:59:23] <r00t4rd3d> routing to start
[21:59:27] <r00t4rd3d> with a dremel
[21:59:30] <Tom_itx> k
[21:59:33] <Tom_itx> it should be ok for that
[21:59:44] <r00t4rd3d> i dont even know what single stack means
[21:59:45] <Tom_itx> i upated my steppers on my sherline
[21:59:49] <Tom_itx> short
[22:00:01] <djdelorie> how much side-side wiggle does it have?
[22:00:07] <r00t4rd3d> none
[22:00:31] <djdelorie> checked with a dial indicator?
[22:00:32] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/boards/USBTiny_Mkii/Boxes/milling1.jpg
[22:00:38] <Tom_itx> those are single stack too
[22:00:46] <Tom_itx> the ones on it now are about 2x as long
[22:01:53] <r00t4rd3d> djdelorie, no but I have a dial indicator
[22:02:14] <djdelorie> I was checking backlash on mine, discovered it had 0.01" wobble
[22:02:34] <r00t4rd3d> will be easier to measure once i get power to them
[22:02:44] <Tom_itx> yeah
[22:02:50] <Tom_itx> what drivers are you using?
[22:02:54] <r00t4rd3d> tb6560
[22:03:28] <r00t4rd3d> unless you want to donate me a gecko
[22:03:40] <Tom_itx> no i just got mine
[22:03:45] <r00t4rd3d> I like new
[22:03:58] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/cnc/psu/psu_index.php
[22:04:03] <Tom_itx> hope to finish it up soon
[22:04:17] <r00t4rd3d> i just bought a power supply
[22:04:32] <r00t4rd3d> thought about making one
[22:04:38] <r00t4rd3d> then just bought one
[22:04:56] <r00t4rd3d> i work to much during the day
[22:05:03] <djdelorie> I made a fancy switcher, but found the right transformer to make a big linear instead
[22:05:12] <jdhNC> that's a lot of driver.
[22:05:27] <Tom_itx> yeah
[22:05:30] <Tom_itx> i'm planning ahead
[22:05:45] <Tom_itx> 18A
[22:05:49] <Tom_itx> supply
[22:06:32] <r00t4rd3d> why did you go with the 3 seperate drivers instead of the all in one?
[22:06:39] <r00t4rd3d> i dont see why people do that
[22:06:40] <Tom_itx> surplus
[22:06:46] <Tom_itx> cheap
[22:06:49] <Tom_itx> :)
[22:06:53] <djdelorie> heh. I picked up a pair of 48v 12a switchers at a flea market last weekend. My justification was listening to all you complaining about small power supplies :-)
[22:07:16] <Tom_itx> i could get by with one with what i have now i think
[22:07:23] <Tom_itx> i know 2 would be
[22:07:24] <jdhNC> I'll trade you two 7.3A for one of the 12's
[22:07:30] <r00t4rd3d> I got a 24v 15a
[22:07:50] <r00t4rd3d> for 36 bucks
[22:08:02] <r00t4rd3d> http://www.ebay.com/itm/120674032390?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649
[22:08:14] <jdhNC> smallish ones seem to be priced per watt.
[22:08:28] <jdhNC> 7.3A 48v is about 36
[22:08:32] <r00t4rd3d> lol its 360w too
[22:08:35] <Tom_itx> i got a 12v 45A
[22:09:01] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/misc_stuff/12v_supply3.jpg
[22:09:36] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/misc_stuff/12v_supply2.jpg
[22:09:44] <djdelorie> 12v should be easy, pretty much any ATX supply should do, yes?
[22:09:53] <Tom_itx> not 45A
[22:10:04] <Tom_itx> but yes
[22:11:01] <r00t4rd3d> i could finally meet my video card requirements
[22:11:30] <djdelorie> I saw a lot of 12v supplies, it was an amateur radio fest so lots of 13.8v supplies
[22:11:32] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/motors/stepper10.jpg
[22:11:37] <Tom_itx> there's the new stepper
[22:11:47] <Tom_itx> quite a bit longer than the original
[22:11:57] <r00t4rd3d> did you just solder extentions on ?
[22:11:59] <Tom_itx> a 'double stack'
[22:12:01] <Tom_itx> yes
[22:12:40] <Tom_itx> they're on the mill now
[22:12:46] <Tom_itx> been using them a while
[22:12:49] <r00t4rd3d> i bought male/female connectors but i think i am just going to solder on extensions also
[22:12:58] <Tom_itx> the new psu and drivers is the next upgrade
[22:13:13] <Tom_itx> the minifit connectors?
[22:13:32] <Tom_itx> my original driver used those so i got some more
[22:13:46] <r00t4rd3d> http://www.ebay.com/itm/200752625794?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649
[22:14:13] <jdhNC> I hate those
[22:14:20] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/motors/stepper9.jpg
[22:14:20] <r00t4rd3d> lol me too
[22:15:02] <r00t4rd3d> tom what those costed?
[22:15:29] <Tom_itx> http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?x=0&y=0&lang=en&site=us&KeyWords=39-01-2060
[22:16:02] <r00t4rd3d> no the motors
[22:16:05] <Tom_itx> http://www.kelinginc.net/NEMA23Motor.html
[22:16:07] <Tom_itx> #3
[22:16:36] <jdhNC> http://www.automationtechnologiesinc.com/products-page/nema-23
[22:16:39] <Tom_itx> about average for that size
[22:16:41] <r00t4rd3d> why dual shaft?
[22:17:08] <Tom_itx> the original ones had hand wheels on them but i never used them
[22:17:13] <Tom_itx> so i just got them that way
[22:42:24] <ReadError_> cool nice
[22:42:32] <ReadError_> got my wireless client setup
[23:52:29] <alex4nder> hey
[23:54:01] <tjb1> How many chips would a low density 128mb ram stick have?
[23:54:50] <alex4nder> how many?
[23:54:52] <alex4nder> like physically?
[23:54:55] <tjb1> Yes
[23:55:00] <tjb1> Mine has 4 chips on it
[23:55:39] <tjb1> It also says 16Mx64 on it, but from what I have read that doesn't tell me if its low or high