#linuxcnc | Logs for 2012-05-03

[00:00:09] <pfred1> I tapped them
[00:00:48] <Aero-Tec> acme thread?
[00:00:57] <pfred1> http://www.instructables.com/id/Make-an-Acme-Tap/
[00:03:11] <pfred1> there are some pretty rough looking homemade acme taps out there on the net
[00:07:07] <Aero-Tec> you used acme ready rod?
[00:07:35] <Aero-Tec> or some may call it threaded rod
[00:07:54] <pfred1> acme is not all thread
[00:16:49] <Jymmmm> Threaded rod (that you can buy at your local hardware store) has points for the peaks and valleys... http://i01.i.aliimg.com/photo/v0/105035101/Threaded_Rod_cut_to_size.jpg
[00:17:15] <Jymmmm> ACME has FLATs http://www.woodworkingonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/acme-thread-0043.jpg
[00:18:08] <Jymmmm> Aero-Tec: FYI ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
[00:25:26] <Connor_CNC> I think I messed up my speed controller on my mill
[00:25:51] <Connor_CNC> It's running wide open no matter what I do.. and when I switch to CNC mode, it runs doesn't do anything.
[00:27:13] <pfred1> http://fritzing.org/projects/the-shy-dildo/
[00:37:32] <Valen> pfred1: do i want to know why/how you found that? ;->
[00:39:45] <pfred1> Valen I was on instructables and saw a link to this fritzing stuff went to the project page and started browsing
[00:39:54] <Valen> sure sure ;->
[00:40:12] <pfred1> this fritzing stuff looks pretty cool
[00:40:22] * pfred1 loves to breadboard
[00:41:05] <pfred1> http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/7615/p7100104.jpg
[00:41:26] <pfred1> I got a little carried away there
[01:08:07] <Aero-Tec> ok, got my lathe back up and running
[01:08:36] <Aero-Tec> the reinstall did the update of emc and fixed my password problem
[01:10:22] <Jymmmm> reinstall of what?
[01:11:22] <Jymmmm> the whole OS ?
[01:18:23] <Aero-Tec> yes
[01:18:33] <Aero-Tec> downloaded the new live CD
[01:18:39] <Aero-Tec> and installed it
[01:19:40] <Aero-Tec> bed time
[01:19:49] <Jymmmm> G'Night =)
[02:24:22] <DJ9DJ> moin
[02:24:33] <Jymmmm> GN(
[02:24:37] <Jymmmm> GN9
[02:26:10] <Jymmmm> DJ9DJ: kidding =)
[02:26:22] <DJ9DJ> hi Jymmmm :)
[03:45:33] <alex4nder> hey
[03:45:46] <Valen> zup
[03:47:05] <DJ9DJ> hi there
[03:50:03] <Tom_itx> somebody must keep the candle lit at all times
[03:52:45] <alex4nder> yes
[03:53:12] <alex4nder> what's going on?
[03:56:29] <Valen> I'm looking for a source of pullys that is cheapish
[03:56:35] <Valen> block/tackle style
[04:00:42] <Jymmmm> Valen: cheap? plastic?
[04:01:06] <Valen> yeah, only after a SWL of ~150kg
[04:01:26] <Jymmmm> Valen: try any boating/marine supply.
[04:01:38] <Valen> they all seem expensive
[04:01:40] <Valen> $30+
[04:01:54] <Jymmmm> yeah, brass, seawater, etc
[04:02:05] <Valen> stainless and plastic actually
[04:02:06] <Jymmmm> how many you need?
[04:02:15] <Valen> 4 would do i blieve
[04:02:17] <Valen> believe
[04:02:28] <Valen> I want to be able to move the 150kg easily
[04:02:34] <Jymmmm> climbing supply
[04:02:35] <Valen> doing a "gearing"
[04:02:42] <Valen> do climbers use pullys?
[04:02:47] <Jymmmm> yeah
[04:02:58] <Jymmmm> Valen: where are you?
[04:03:06] <Valen> sydney australia
[04:03:10] <Valen> things you learn
[04:04:01] <Jymmmm> http://www.rei.com/category/4500697
[04:04:36] <Jymmmm> Valen: mind you, they are intended to be used with locking carabiners too
[04:04:54] <Valen> I cant actually see that web site for some reason
[04:05:05] <Jymmmm> I can't emphises the LOCKING part
[04:06:02] <Jymmmm> http://www.amazon.com/b?ie=UTF8&node=3402641
[04:06:05] <Jymmmm> try that
[04:06:13] <Jymmmm> or google 'climbing pulleys'
[04:07:23] <Jymmmm> Valen: it might get expensive if you dont already have the locking carabiners,
[04:07:53] <Valen> locking = screw up lock part right?
[04:07:59] <Jymmmm> correct
[04:08:34] <Valen> didn't think they were outragous,
[04:08:44] <Valen> I see them in stainless for ~$10 or so as i recall?
[04:08:45] <alex4nder> got the case for my mini-itx board
[04:08:49] <alex4nder> it's sick
[04:09:20] <Jymmmm> Valen: look at the photo... http://www.amazon.com/Rothco-Black-80-mm-Locking-Carabiner/dp/B000E96RQI/ref=sr_1_10?s=outdoor-recreation&ie=UTF8&qid=1336035505&sr=1-10
[04:09:49] <Valen> yeah Ive seen them before
[04:10:00] <Jymmmm> Valen: did you read what it says?
[04:10:07] <Valen> yes
[04:10:13] <Valen> i read every single word on the page
[04:10:27] <Jymmmm> Valen: NOT FOR CLIMBING
[04:10:34] <Valen> so?
[04:10:39] <Valen> i'm not climbing with it
[04:10:43] <Jymmmm> it's not rated for weight
[04:10:52] <Jymmmm> or shock
[04:12:26] <Jymmmm> Valen: I think this is one that I have http://www.amazon.com/Black-Diamond-Positron-Screwgate-Carabiner/dp/B000CC1ANM/ref=sr_1_6?s=outdoor-recreation&ie=UTF8&qid=1336035505&sr=1-6
[04:12:31] <Valen> http://www.kfd.com.au/shop/item/spring-self-locking-stainless-steel-80mm-carabina will be more than sufficent i think
[04:13:29] <Jymmmm> That doens't look climbing rated
[04:13:37] <Valen> it isnt
[04:14:08] <Valen> but since i'm not going rock climbing with it and its made of rather beefy stainless it will probably do the job
[04:14:39] <Jymmmm> it's not ther material, you could use aluminum for that matter, it's the construction
[04:29:30] <archivist> Valen, cheap engine lift block and tackle
[04:31:35] <Valen> archivist: the suspension point is already in place
[04:31:48] <Valen> but i was thinking about using a chain block
[04:31:58] <archivist> ebay rope hoist
[04:32:24] <archivist> some in usa at £12 ish
[04:33:16] <archivist> hard to get cheaper than 190537025459
[04:37:36] <Valen> i also want it for next weekend ;->
[04:37:53] <Valen> its an art install so it needs to look good too ;->
[04:38:10] <archivist> I bet there is a local chinese importer
[04:38:11] <Valen> that thing does look good though
[04:38:25] <Valen> but I reckon their 180kg is the breaking strain of that rope
[04:39:10] <archivist> and then multiplied by the number of ropes between the pulleys
[04:39:19] <Valen> I'm liking the look of this though http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/LARGE-OLD-STEEL-PULLEY-BLOCK-HOOK-Ropelock-Brand-/280869730188?pt=AU_ToolsHardwareLocks&hash=item416523f78c#ht_500wt_1413
[04:39:49] <Valen> though with a grease nipple I'm thinking the friction could be kinda high
[04:39:57] <Valen> still no worries about the load rating lol
[04:40:10] <archivist> need a pair though
[04:40:17] <Valen> true
[04:40:25] <Valen> but it does a great job on the asthetic
[04:41:30] <Valen> crap this would be ideal http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Block-and-Tackle-Rope-Pulley-workshop-garage-work-tool-hoist-mechanic-/180871929258?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2a1cce9daa#ht_602wt_1398
[04:42:13] <archivist> I just saw that, go and haggle
[04:42:22] <Valen> its about 1500km from me
[04:42:34] <Valen> you know half way into the next state ;-P
[04:42:46] <Valen> he says local pickup only
[04:42:56] <Valen> I'd hate to think what the shipping would be lol
[04:44:09] <archivist> just up the road!
[04:44:18] <Valen> it is actually
[04:44:28] <Valen> 4 sets of lights give or take
[04:45:46] <archivist> but anyway...you have a cnc make one
[04:46:00] <Valen> I am probably going to make the swivel
[04:46:18] <Valen> using some wheel bearings for the actual spinny bit
[04:48:28] <Valen> (as in bearings in car wheels)
[04:50:55] <Valen> cheapest way to get tapered roller bearings ;->
[04:52:50] <Thetawaves> i found a wide variety on ebay
[04:52:54] <Thetawaves> some months ago
[04:53:13] <Valen> bearings or blocks?
[04:53:30] <Thetawaves> the bearing and the cup
[04:53:41] <Valen> cup?
[04:53:53] <Thetawaves> that the tapered bearings slide in
[04:54:12] <Valen> havent heard of one
[04:54:37] <Thetawaves> http://www.vxb.com/page/bearings/PROD/Kit11887?gclid=CMm0ha_q468CFcIFRQodgSmYDQ
[04:54:39] <Thetawaves> bearing, and the cup
[04:55:04] <Valen> I just presumed that the whole thing was one assembly and one would purchase it as such
[04:55:38] <Thetawaves> right, the cup is made to match the bearing exactly
[04:56:07] <Valen> its a hamburger and chips vs a happymeal
[04:56:36] <Thetawaves> oh?
[04:57:03] <Valen> if they are matched, i would just say buying the bearing not buying the bearing and a cup for it
[04:57:31] <Valen> to take it to the extreme i bought the rollers, a raceway, a cone and a cup
[04:57:37] <Valen> all in one easy purchase
[04:57:39] <Thetawaves> yeah, sometimes i focus on irrelevant details
[04:58:04] <Thetawaves> i just wanted to clarify that the cup is not a 'block'
[04:58:20] <Valen> ahh no i am using block as in block and tackle
[04:58:23] <Valen> pulley
[04:58:26] <Thetawaves> oh
[04:58:53] <Valen> still i now have more terminology to throw around, thats always handy
[06:08:06] <Loetmichel> mornin
[06:50:42] <r00t4rd3d> 14,637 results found for
[06:50:42] <r00t4rd3d> osama bin laden
[06:50:47] <r00t4rd3d> Ebay.
[07:19:15] <jthornton> make up your mind
[07:21:48] <archivist> that happens when a user chooses someone else's registered nick
[07:22:54] <jthornton> ahh
[07:23:17] <Jymmmm> jthornton: Fine, "I want a grande latte, skinny, half caf and half de-caf, with mocha almond, caramel flavor, grande, with room for cream, whipped cream with sprinkles on top"
[07:23:40] <jthornton> do I need to make a make file to have asciidoc do it's magic on all the files in a directory?
[07:23:51] <jthornton> Jymmmm, you get it black and hot here
[07:24:26] <Jymmmm> jthornton: And thus why it was in quotes =)
[07:25:42] <Jymmmm> jthornton: Oh, the other day I found Nescafe Instant coffee + Creamer + Sugar pre-mixed in individual packets, kinda cool.
[07:26:11] <jthornton> if you like that I guess it is
[07:26:39] <Jymmmm> jthornton: Well, good for on he go, backpacking, etc
[07:27:10] <archivist> jthornton, has the asciidoc stuff not been added to the main makefiles?
[07:27:55] <jthornton> I'm creating a html from asciidoc for some strange reason and want to build them like the linuxcnc docs do
[07:28:40] <archivist> ah, then copy said method :)
[07:29:22] <jthornton> I shall give that a try to see what breaks LOL
[07:30:21] <jthornton> hmmm, it is a Submakefile
[07:30:54] <jthornton> with 837 lines of code :-(
[07:31:06] <Jymmmm> jthornton: SWPadnos_ was telling me that instant coffee is "the norm" outside of north america, even in high end hotels and such.
[07:31:12] <jthornton> some of which I understand and some I don't
[07:31:38] <archivist> jthornton, gitweb link dead at http://linuxcnc.org/index.php/english/download
[07:32:41] <jthornton> seems to be borked
[07:33:45] <jthornton> still has emc2 in the link http://git.linuxcnc.org/gitweb?p=linuxcnc.git;a=summary
[07:36:35] <jthornton> wow I did something besides san bammers today... reload the page and try again
[07:39:59] <jthornton> maybe someone will happen by and give me a hint to get some.txt files to run through asciidoc with a make file...
[07:42:31] <archivist> some copy past from the asciidoc makefile and you will be partly on your way
[07:44:12] <archivist> it mostly works with generic rules so will be a good starting point
[07:59:21] <jthornton> problem is I don't know what part to copy, I know file names need to be in one section and it builds pdf's too but I can't figure out what line builds the html docs
[08:00:39] <jthornton> it looks like all the .txt file names are stored in a variable or something called DOC_SRCS
[08:01:04] <jthornton> DOC_SRCS := \ code/Code_Notes.txt \
[08:02:10] <archivist> most are rules which will be applied to what it finds in the directory
[08:02:19] <Jymmmm> looks like relative path to a file called 'Code_Notes.txt'
[08:02:21] <archivist> line 1 DOCS_EN := $(patsubst %.txt,%,$(wildcard *.txt */*.txt))
[08:02:47] <archivist> lines 33,34
[08:03:19] <archivist> I would just copy the lot and tias
[08:03:48] <jthornton> hmm I think your looking at a different file than me
[08:04:11] <archivist> http://git.linuxcnc.org/gitweb?p=linuxcnc.git;a=blob;f=docs/src/Makefile;h=277ae6391b324aff243dc39d166580355f9f0196;hb=1f30f27f1b32d9fbbb3bfab5a3b4ce26a1d1954f
[08:06:01] <jthornton> found it, I was looking at the Submakefile
[08:06:10] <archivist> if I followed links correctly that should be the one for 2.5, version tag aught to be on the page
[08:14:06] <jthornton> this is what I have so far http://pastebin.com/00d542fq
[08:15:13] <jthornton> I get this make: *** No rule to make target `xref_en.links', needed by `html'. Stop.
[08:19:04] <jdhNC> do you have to do something to make the .links files, or do they just exist?
[08:20:48] <jthornton> I don't have a clue
[08:22:26] <jdhNC> does xref_en.links exist?
[08:23:33] <jthornton> no
[08:24:19] <jthornton> it seems to come from the submakefile
[08:26:02] <jthornton> ok, this is almost making sense on the last line that has asciidoc -a
[09:27:33] <Aero-Tec> if I want to put a linux machine on a windows network, what would be the best way to go?
[09:27:59] <jdhNC> ethernet
[09:28:13] <DJ9DJ> hrhr
[09:28:26] <Aero-Tec> have that
[09:28:32] <Aero-Tec> they are conected
[09:28:42] <DJ9DJ> maybe samba?
[09:28:43] <awallin> samba for file sharing
[09:28:57] <jdhNC> set samba to use the same workgroup name you use for everything else. It's mostly transparent
[09:29:13] <Aero-Tec> cool
[09:29:15] <Aero-Tec> thanks
[09:30:51] <archivist> I normally set web servers up on the boxes as well for one way shares and other stuff
[09:31:51] <jdhNC> I've been using a 1tb disk hooked up to my router for sharing stuff.
[09:32:37] <jdhNC> wonder if I can mount that under my google drive dir on my winbox
[09:33:02] <Jymmm> 'google drive' ?
[09:33:34] <jdhNC> it's like gmail, except instead of just mining your email for info to sell, they can mine all your data!
[09:35:08] <Valen> pfft
[09:35:10] <Valen> sell?
[09:35:27] <Valen> if you store the plans for your cold fusion device on there
[09:35:32] <jdhNC> they certainly aren't giving it away.
[09:35:39] <Valen> expect to be buying google electricity in a few years
[09:36:02] <Valen> the TOS for it says whatever you store on there is googles property basically
[09:36:24] <archivist> google will be looking at my emails thinking what the hell can we sell him...no money
[09:40:50] <jdhNC> if you are offered a product for 'free', then you aren't a customer, you are the product.
[10:26:54] <gene__> Michael, are you about?
[10:36:02] <skunkworks> gene__: I just emailed the list - but I was wondering - is there a reason why you cannot use 2.5?
[10:39:29] <cradek> yes I tested 2.5.0 and it lets you queue mdi commands. I have always used simple mdi commands but as mh points out if you combine mdi queueing with o-call you might get surprises.
[10:44:33] <skunkworks> I vaguely remember that gene may have wanted some of the o-word fixes that micheal had done... which is unfortunate...
[10:45:05] <skunkworks> because I think that is what caused the non que'ing issue.
[10:46:01] <skunkworks> (but that is just a vague recollection..)
[11:06:12] <pcw_home> (thats all I have anymore)
[11:46:37] <skunkworks> hear! here! (that way I am 50% correct) ;)
[11:49:11] <alex4nder> hey
[12:37:36] * archivist is looking for a manual for a Barber Colman Type S gear hobber , just a wish, can always take it to bits to see how it works
[12:44:48] <IchGuckLive> archivist: http://www.bourn-koch.com/pages_blocks_v3_exp/images/links/BCreman.jpg somthing like this
[12:46:52] <archivist> IchGuckLive, more like http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g8/lvanice/PM/BarberColmanS3.jpg
[12:50:33] <archivist> I got close enough to mine today to get the model number and a pic
[12:50:35] <archivist> http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DJCPD/PD/2012/2012_05_03_Barber_Colman_Type_S/IMG_1234.JPG
[12:55:27] <andypugh> Is that something ancient labelled "Modern" in the background?
[12:56:31] <archivist> that is the 1940's adcock and shipley horizontal mill
[12:57:22] <archivist> http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DJCPD/PD/2011/2011_07_13_Adcock_and_Shipley/
[13:02:35] <IchGuckLive> nice part archivist fully manuell x and A
[13:03:16] <IchGuckLive> are the gearsystems also in th box for the main gearspaces 40,20,15
[13:05:01] <archivist> the hobber has a number of change gear positions but came without change wheels, may cnc it
[13:05:21] <IchGuckLive> the lever parallel to the part shifts to the next gear and the lever (Bigone ) runs the tool to the part
[13:05:57] <IchGuckLive> archivist: nice worm for it
[13:06:25] <IchGuckLive> this mashine wiorks best with a airsystem not cnc is best
[13:06:56] <IchGuckLive> then you can make parts in mass
[13:07:39] <IchGuckLive> a 2bar pressurised cylinder pushes the main and a littel one gives the grear shift
[13:08:08] <IchGuckLive> 4 lowcost switchse control the vent block and you are happy done
[13:08:17] <IchGuckLive> 50USD
[13:09:07] <IchGuckLive> the littel one on 6Bar so it makes klick klack
[13:32:51] <Aero-Tec> so emc 2.3 2.4 and 2.5, is there much of a difference between them?
[13:33:10] <IchGuckLive> Aero-Tec: yes
[13:33:14] <pcw_home> .2 and .1
[13:33:32] <IchGuckLive> Aero-Tec: im working wright now on a airfol mashine
[13:33:52] <Aero-Tec> I have some old boxes with floppy drives
[13:34:19] <Aero-Tec> not sure if they will run the latest and greatest
[13:34:41] <Aero-Tec> .2 and .1, smart a$$
[13:34:43] <Aero-Tec> lol
[13:34:49] <IchGuckLive> take the live cd and check
[13:35:04] <Aero-Tec> that is a idea
[13:36:12] <IchGuckLive> Aero-Tec: i make a screenshot one moment
[13:36:13] <Aero-Tec> so what are the highlights with the different versions?
[13:36:53] <IchGuckLive> the live cd has 2.4.3 on it
[13:37:00] <cradek> Aero-Tec: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Released
[13:37:30] <Aero-Tec> BTW how does one find out what processor is in the machine with linux?
[13:37:53] <cradek> cat /proc/cpuinfo
[13:39:25] <Aero-Tec> cool thanks
[13:39:55] <Aero-Tec> that is some list of changes
[13:39:58] <IchGuckLive> Aero-Tec: http://mechmo.de/Bild81.jpg
[13:40:24] <Aero-Tec> no idea what most are, but someone has been a busy beaver
[13:41:16] <IchGuckLive> Aero-Tec: witch country are you from
[13:41:47] <Aero-Tec> the land of the beaver
[13:41:48] <Aero-Tec> lol
[13:42:00] <Aero-Tec> hows it going ahh
[13:42:04] <IchGuckLive> Canada french or english side
[13:42:17] <Aero-Tec> west coast
[13:42:23] <Aero-Tec> all eng
[13:42:41] <Aero-Tec> do not know any fr
[13:42:57] <IchGuckLive> ok im off By O.O B)
[13:43:07] <Aero-Tec> where are you from?
[13:44:14] <Aero-Tec> to bad he left, wanted to ask him about the airfoil program he has
[13:52:41] <andypugh> IchGuck.. was slightly wrong, the LiveCD has 2.5 on it, if you get the correct LiveCD.
[13:53:47] <archivist> I switch off when he rambles
[13:56:38] <jdhNC> how recent of a livecd?
[13:58:00] <andypugh> If the filename says LinuxCNC, then it is 2.5. For example: http://linuxcnc.org/iso/ubuntu-10.04-linuxcnc2-i386.iso
[13:59:10] <jdhNC> mine is linuxnc1 I got on 3/30 but I don't think it had 2.5
[13:59:24] <jdhNC> who pays for linuxcnc.org?
[14:00:15] <andypugh> Nobody, and everybody.
[14:00:27] * jdhNC sees no 'donate' link and ceases feeling guilty.
[14:00:49] <skunkworks> I donate by beta testing...
[14:00:51] <andypugh> I have never seen this before, a speed-reducer that goes in front of the spindle: http://www.lathes.co.uk/holbrook/page4.html
[14:05:23] <andypugh> archivist! http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Boley-Watchmakers-Lathe-/270965077040
[14:07:07] <archivist> does not look very watchmakers to me
[14:07:30] <andypugh> No, but it looks quite nice, and isn't horribly expensive
[14:08:35] <archivist> my current finances makes it horribly expensive
[14:09:52] <archivist> looks like a manual production tool for a simple op
[14:11:10] <andypugh> Yes. Probably very high quality, but rather limited.
[14:11:50] <archivist> the boley jig mill we had at the last job was very good for certain work
[14:12:20] <archivist> a sod for other work though
[14:13:21] <archivist> ex boss would not let me bring it home http://www.archivist.info/cnc/works2008/P1010207.JPG
[14:14:03] <archivist> xy on top of a rotary on top of another slide
[14:14:43] <andypugh> I think I have seen it before
[14:15:01] <archivist> likely
[14:15:17] <archivist> I want one!
[14:17:25] <andypugh> There are some relatively inexpensive big chucks on the eBay right now, £300 for a 410mm one
[14:23:28] <archivist> ooh shiny 280874358293
[14:24:57] <andypugh> Oooh! bulky
[14:25:43] <archivist> only 3 tons!
[14:27:37] <r00t4rd3d> lighter then your wife~
[14:27:39] <r00t4rd3d> !
[14:28:13] <archivist> impossible...no wife!
[14:28:21] <r00t4rd3d> boy friend~
[14:28:22] <r00t4rd3d> !
[14:28:27] <r00t4rd3d> stupid console key
[14:28:38] <r00t4rd3d> how the hell i do that twice in a row
[14:29:20] <archivist> already over priced 290707135233
[14:29:45] * JT-Shop-2 runs and hides from fleabay watching
[14:30:12] <archivist> you know you want to!
[14:30:52] <JT-Shop> I want to hot forge some 5/16" bolts lol
[14:32:24] <andypugh> I wonder if there is a way to search eBay for just lathes, not everything that anyone might consider lathe-related. (I already select "used only" which filters things a bit
[14:33:13] <archivist> andypugh, I usually search the lathe maker Im interested in
[14:34:05] <andypugh> I don't know. I am looking for one that looks sad and negelcted and in need of CNC conversion.
[14:34:56] <archivist> there was one on the scrap pile the other day
[14:35:20] <archivist> but perhaps a little too old
[14:38:08] <archivist> andypugh, broken lathe seems best :)
[14:38:12] <andypugh> I am thinking that a Chipmaster would be a a good candidate. Apart from anything else you are not wasting a set of head gears.
[14:40:40] <archivist> the one in devon ..thrashed to the last atom of its ways
[14:42:06] <andypugh> Yes, "replaced with a new model" So why, pray tell?
[14:42:40] <archivist> this is shiny but it has a bidding war 261011642153
[14:43:24] <andypugh> Woohoo! http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300702056341
[14:44:13] <andypugh> "Ex secondary schoool" means "brand new, never used" so it will be a good buy.
[14:44:15] <archivist> bugger I should have them
[14:44:58] <andypugh> The "Metal working tools" would have gone for 4x that with a proper description "P Horn supermini boring bars"
[14:45:21] <andypugh> Should have which?
[14:45:29] <archivist> I went on their stand the other week
[14:45:43] <archivist> the p horn tools
[14:46:25] <andypugh> I have been wanting a proper holder for a while. (I won that auction)
[14:46:48] <archivist> I realised, now I know where to come scrounging
[14:51:54] * skunkworks wonders if he can get hydrogen locally...
[14:52:06] <skunkworks> without making it himself
[14:52:52] <skunkworks> is that something the local gas/welding supply place have?
[14:53:37] <skunkworks> huh - looks like they do...
[14:54:24] <andypugh> Maybe. Worth asking. What's that process.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_hydrogen_welding
[14:55:12] <skunkworks> na - just a stirling engine project.. Helium is nice - hydrogen is better. (better heat transfer, lighter and something else)
[14:55:27] <skunkworks> it just goes bang some times.
[14:55:49] <skunkworks> looks like I can get a small tank - have to give them a call
[14:57:06] <r00t4rd3d> blow something up
[15:00:24] <Loetmichel> "bang" is a slight understatement
[15:00:43] <r00t4rd3d> more of a boom
[15:00:46] <Loetmichel> last time i ignited some hydrogen the roof of my garden shed flew off ;-)
[15:01:03] <Loetmichel> (ok, i was only 15 and didnt know it better)
[15:02:37] <skunkworks> I used to make ballons worth of it when I was a kid. very fun
[15:05:47] <archivist> my dad caught me sawing a bullet case to see what was inside. it didnt go off :)
[15:06:32] <Loetmichel> archivist: sheer luck
[15:06:56] <archivist> that would have damaged the shed walls, things we do as kids :)
[15:07:17] <Loetmichel> i have a brass shard embedded in my thumb bone to tell a story where the .22 DID ignite at sawing
[15:07:49] <archivist> you wont do it again
[15:07:55] <Loetmichel> for sure
[15:08:39] <skunkworks> getting carbon rods out of spend D cells was probably more dangerous..
[15:09:19] <archivist> well messy, never hurt me
[15:09:34] <skunkworks> heh
[15:10:04] <skunkworks> when I jammed the screwdriver in my hand...
[15:10:10] <archivist> were you eating it then?
[15:15:51] <mrsun_> skunkworks, thats not where the screwdriver is supposed to go ;P
[15:31:18] <skunkworks> you're telling me!
[15:32:07] <andypugh> Well, it seemed more obvious to us than to you.
[15:32:30] <archivist> a few war wounds while growing up are required education :)
[15:34:06] <andypugh> You mean I am allowed to stop giving myself piunctures now?
[15:36:19] <JT-Shop> you should see what kids have to go through over here to get a nick... protective gear, nerf footballs if they can even have one padded everything including their heads
[15:46:52] <r00t4rd3d> grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
[16:23:29] <Aero-Tec> can one do threading with EMC with only the index pulse?
[16:24:09] <JT-Shop> external single point threading?
[16:24:18] <Aero-Tec> yes
[16:24:33] <Aero-Tec> and internal
[16:25:13] <JT-Shop> I think you need at least a velocity estimate on the spindle from A as well
[16:25:41] <JT-Shop> doubt you would be happy with a thread with one pulse per rev though
[16:25:59] <Aero-Tec> mach uses just the index
[16:26:15] <JT-Shop> ...
[16:26:38] <Aero-Tec> in fact that is all you can use
[16:27:44] <ReadError_> so hmmm
[16:27:49] <ReadError_> i can run EMC headless?
[16:28:04] <Aero-Tec> ?
[16:28:05] <ReadError_> can i connect the linux EMC client to it on another machine?
[16:28:11] <ReadError_> it listens on port 5005
[16:28:13] <toast2> most of the machines i've ever ran had just an index pulse for threading
[16:28:19] <ReadError_> saw it when i did a lsof on the process
[16:28:31] <toast2> the thread quality is pretty high
[16:28:50] <toast2> not sure where emc stands on it but IIRC it does just fine with an index pulse only
[16:29:11] <Aero-Tec> IIRC?
[16:29:21] <toast2> "if i recall correctly"
[16:29:35] <Aero-Tec> ok
[16:29:36] <Connor> I just set my spindle up with A, 16 counts per revolution
[16:29:51] <toast2> spindle encoders matter more for rigid tapping
[16:29:52] <Connor> No index.. I may try treading with it at some point.
[16:30:42] <Connor> I was thinking of adding a spring to my quill and let it extend out about 1/2" for tapping that way it can pull/push the quill as needed for variations in feed rate vs spindle speed.
[16:30:46] <Aero-Tec> I would love rigid tapping but for now I will just single point it
[16:30:49] <Connor> like the tormach tapping head.
[16:31:24] <toast2> Connor: one of the easiest ways to tap like that is to just make a dog-driven tapping collar
[16:31:51] <Aero-Tec> but no good for single point threading
[16:32:03] <toast2> you drive your spindle down to the final depth, and the tap feeds until it gets far down enough to slip off the og
[16:32:04] <toast2> *dog
[16:32:41] <toast2> all floating tapholders are essentially just a spring, though, so your method will work just fine
[16:32:50] <JT-Shop> ReadError_: have you looked at emcrsh or what ever it is now?
[16:33:39] <Aero-Tec> when I get some proper card and the other spindle signal set up I will be able to rigid tap
[16:34:14] <JT-Shop> you have to have both A and B and index to rigid tap
[16:34:23] <Aero-Tec> has anyone setup threading on EMC with just the encoder?
[16:35:21] <JT-Shop> are you asking without spindle speed control but with encoder feedback to LinuxCNC?
[16:35:31] <Aero-Tec> JT-Shop: thanks for the info
[16:35:41] <Aero-Tec> yes
[16:35:48] <Aero-Tec> no speed control
[16:35:57] <JT-Shop> there is an example in the manual
[16:35:58] <Aero-Tec> and just a index
[16:36:02] <Loetmichel> so, done for today... just made a trophy for competitions at a quadcopter-convention....
[16:36:10] <Connor> My understanding is, EMC just adjusts the feed rate anyway, not the spindle speed.
[16:36:10] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=13170
[16:36:36] <Loetmichel> (forgot to mirror the logo... no problem, its just a prototype ;-)
[16:37:08] <JT-Shop> Loetmichel: cool
[16:37:19] <Aero-Tec> Loetmichel: nice
[16:38:23] <Aero-Tec> but why the soldering iron?
[16:39:05] <Aero-Tec> trophy for the best soldered boards?
[16:39:28] <Loetmichel> its the trophy from last year for the "building" competition
[16:39:31] <Aero-Tec> love quadcopters
[16:39:50] <Connor> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/2.2/html/gcode_main.html#sec:G33,-G33.1:-Spindle-Synchronized
[16:40:05] <DJ9DJ_> gn8
[16:40:43] <ReadError_> Loetmichel: SMD LED?
[16:41:06] <Loetmichel> correct
[16:41:33] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=13158
[16:42:14] <Loetmichel> 60mA , plcc2, 30°, and i have 200 laying around
[16:42:51] <Loetmichel> so i got the job to make the lights fpr the trophys
[16:42:54] <Connor> If I don't have a index, just a A, can I still do threading ?
[16:44:15] <andypugh> Aero-Tec: There is a "position-interpolated" pin in the encoder module, it will help a lot to use that. Also, don't try to thread at too low a speed.
[16:45:14] <Aero-Tec> encoder module?
[16:45:31] <Aero-Tec> I am using the p port only
[16:45:38] <andypugh> Mach just does a constant-speed move when it sees the index, so doesn't cope at all if the spindle slows during the cut. LinuxCNC tries to compensate for spindle speed changes, but will tend to get a bit confused by a single-pulse spindle. So, neither works perfectly on a single ppr.
[16:46:21] <andypugh> Aero-Tec: Look in your HAL file, you will see an encoder module get loaded, and the positon pin will be "net"-ed to motion.spindle-revs.
[16:46:57] <andypugh> If it isn't already encoder.0.position-interpolated, edit the file so it is.
[16:47:18] <Aero-Tec> ok
[16:47:22] <andypugh> (assuming you only have one encoder, called "0" because geeks couint that way, and geeks wrote LinuxCNC.
[16:47:39] <Aero-Tec> lol
[16:47:57] <Aero-Tec> I am a geek of sorts as well
[16:48:31] <Aero-Tec> old timer, before geeks were cool and just got beat up
[16:50:31] <Aero-Tec> thing is I was a big, both in being a geek and in size
[16:51:06] <Aero-Tec> so they could not beet me up, they tried but I got them
[16:51:20] <andypugh> Aero-Tec: I think that describes most of us. Well, not the size thing necessarily.
[16:52:03] <JT-Shop> ReadError_: did you find emcrsh
[16:53:07] <Loetmichel> Aero-Tec: if you are big: no one would have tried to beat you up.
[16:53:53] <Aero-Tec> bullies like big guys that do not fight back
[16:53:56] <Loetmichel> i just had to show the 3 school bullies what happens it i get bullied top much.
[16:54:15] <Loetmichel> after that i had no problems with bullies on the school ;-)
[16:54:24] <Aero-Tec> makes for a more inexpressive show and makes them feel like a someone
[16:55:08] <Aero-Tec> they start small and work up to pissing you off
[16:55:15] <Aero-Tec> then you hammer them
[16:55:52] <Aero-Tec> yes, they do leave you alone after you knock them on their a$$
[16:55:52] <andypugh> I just managed to nurture a reputation for being a bit of a psycho when angered, which saved a lot of trouble. Chase one kid round the playing fields with a small tree stump and the others back off :-)
[16:56:08] <Loetmichel> someone told me afterwards ( i have no memory of the few minutes whre my fuses went off) that i had jelled out like an animal, got one of the three bullues by collar and belt, lifted him and trown him 5 meteres to a wall
[16:56:09] <Aero-Tec> lol
[16:57:25] <Loetmichel> btw: i was 16 at that time, 63kg and 180cm tall
[16:57:40] <Aero-Tec> thing is I moves on average 3 times a year up till jr high
[16:57:45] <Loetmichel> and have thrown the 190cm 90kg bullie
[16:57:51] <JT-Shop> andypugh: I'm on track to test fire Sunday :)
[16:58:08] <Aero-Tec> test fire?
[16:58:13] <Aero-Tec> we talking guns?
[16:58:18] <Aero-Tec> lol
[16:58:37] <Aero-Tec> had to deal with lots of bullies
[16:58:41] <andypugh> Well, not so much a gun as artillery in this case.
[16:58:51] <Aero-Tec> cool
[16:59:06] <Aero-Tec> friend of mine and I were looking at making one
[16:59:32] <andypugh> Hmm, JT is a big chap and may be a geek. I wonder if his current cannon-based project can be traced back to childhood trauma? </freud>
[16:59:56] <Loetmichel> hrhr
[17:00:11] <Aero-Tec> and I have a friend from England that ones a real cannon, and we are not talking cameras
[17:00:30] <andypugh> JT-Shop: Show him the pictures..
[17:00:51] <Aero-Tec> would love to see them
[17:01:08] <JT-Shop> ok
[17:01:26] <andypugh> Darn! They sold it. http://easternyachts.com/grandturk/gun_deck.htm
[17:02:12] <andypugh> (it's rather a nice baot, and was "only" £1.5 million
[17:02:42] <Aero-Tec> love how you say only
[17:02:44] <JT-Shop> http://imagebin.org/210859
[17:03:06] <JT-Shop> http://imagebin.org/210860
[17:03:54] <JT-Shop> working on the Lunette and Trail Plate now
[17:04:04] <Aero-Tec> nice toy
[17:04:14] <Aero-Tec> did you make the whole thing?
[17:04:43] <JT-Shop> no, the barrel and wheels I purchased
[17:04:47] <Aero-Tec> looked like the barrel was not brass
[17:05:14] <JT-Shop> cast iron with a steel liner, 1 3/4" bore weighs about 100lbs
[17:05:30] <JT-Shop> http://www.gnipsel.com/ballista/videos/test-fire-1.mov
[17:05:34] <Aero-Tec> was it predrilled or did you drill the bore?
[17:05:55] <JT-Shop> the bore was finished, only had to drill the touch off hole
[17:05:59] <Aero-Tec> ok so steel liner
[17:06:10] <JT-Shop> yea, much safer to fire
[17:06:44] <JT-Shop> if we run low on black powder we stick them to a tree with the Ballista
[17:07:56] <andypugh> JT-Shop: You be mixing your terminology. It's a "touch hole". "touch off" is a bit more high-tech
[17:09:50] <Aero-Tec> nice toy
[17:10:01] <Aero-Tec> did you make it?
[17:10:45] <Aero-Tec> so to sum up
[17:11:04] <Aero-Tec> one can do single point in EMC with only endex
[17:11:27] <JT-Shop> LOL
[17:11:50] <JT-Shop> the Ballista yea made it from scratch and a truck spring
[17:12:04] <Aero-Tec> but will but be as good and can not run slow RPMs until you get the full spindle encoder working
[17:12:18] <Aero-Tec> that about right?
[17:12:21] <Aero-Tec> cool
[17:12:31] <andypugh> Aero-Tec: Aye, I reckon that's it
[17:12:57] <Aero-Tec> why single leaf, why not the full stack that was on the truck?
[17:13:02] <Aero-Tec> lol
[17:13:37] <Aero-Tec> sounds like a Tim Allen project
[17:14:03] <JT-Shop> I'm considering adding one more leaf to the spring to hurl the heavy bolts
[17:14:07] <andypugh> A full stack would be slow to extend, because of the extra mass, and probably would transfer less energy into the bolt.
[17:14:15] <Aero-Tec> wonder how well that would work
[17:14:21] <JT-Shop> no, mine work and no one gets hurt
[17:14:44] <andypugh> It's an interesting balance. Note how bows are made of very light materials.
[17:14:53] <JT-Shop> aye, but the string would have much more tension when pulled back
[17:15:09] <Aero-Tec> yes extra mass, but extra power to move mass faster
[17:15:39] * JT-Shop gets back to fabricating the Pointing Rings
[17:16:01] <andypugh> I tried to make a test rig once and found that there is an upper limit to how fast a coil spring can extend (related to the density and modulus of the material), and it isn't all that fast.
[17:16:11] <Aero-Tec> JT-Shop: thanks for sharing
[17:16:40] <JT-Shop> love to share
[17:16:46] <andypugh> JT-Shop: Extra tension is no help if the bolt out-tuns the string a millisecond later.
[17:16:58] <andypugh> (out-runs)
[17:17:12] <JT-Shop> yes, some experimentation is in order I think
[17:17:17] <andypugh> I have no idea at what point that happens, though.
[17:17:46] <andypugh> I think that the torsion spring arrangement the Romans used might not have been accidental.
[17:18:29] <andypugh> (arms attached to torsion springs can move a lot faster than coil springs)
[17:18:54] <toastydeath> you need very large springs to keep up with fast motion, which is why cam springs are huge
[17:19:01] <JT-Shop> actually the outer spring with the cable attached can't outrun the inner shorter spring I think due to the greater mass at the tips
[17:19:33] <JT-Shop> the torsion springs didn't work well when damp
[17:19:38] <andypugh> You might have noticed that I haven't said anything about leaf springs, as I know next-to-nothing about them
[17:19:52] <toastydeath> all springs have a speed limit
[17:20:16] <toastydeath> it's an integral of the force on the spring at any point along the spring and the mass of that point of the spring
[17:20:30] <Loetmichel> sounds logical
[17:21:28] <andypugh> toastydeath: Indeed, which is why my test rig ended up being a 100kg flywheel @ 3000 rpm, a pneumatic clutch and a cam...
[17:21:56] <andypugh> I have never before or since been so scared to click a mouse button..
[17:22:05] <toastydeath> air springs move faster at lower pressures than solid springs
[17:22:12] <toastydeath> so that's also an option
[17:23:04] <JT-Shop> what the heck were you testing?
[17:23:47] <toastydeath> his will to live
[17:24:43] <andypugh> gene__: Ye there?
[17:25:26] <andypugh> JT-Shop: benchtop simulation of car crashes. I was trying to test crash-test-dummy materials at crash-test velocities
[17:25:50] <andypugh> My rig did 0-50mph in 20mm.
[17:29:00] <JT-Shop> wow!
[17:35:00] <Loetmichel> andypugh: nice
[17:35:08] <Loetmichel> thats how many g ?
[17:35:33] <andypugh> 500g, I think.
[17:36:28] <andypugh> I had to redesign the carriage to be stiffer, the section of the aluminium that held the linear guide bearings got left behind..
[17:36:44] <Loetmichel> harhar
[17:38:56] <Loetmichel> andypugh: i calculated 555g
[17:39:02] <Loetmichel> can that be correct?
[17:39:18] <Loetmichel> if so: no wonder the aluminium got left behind ;-)
[17:39:18] <andypugh> Yes, that sounds about right
[17:40:09] <Loetmichel> i had seen some electronics for a "intelligent 40mm grenade" once...
[17:40:21] <Loetmichel> which can cope with up to 2500g
[17:40:58] <Loetmichel> and there was really somm effort to hold the pieces together ;)
[17:41:10] <ReadError_> anyone here use pycam?
[17:41:16] <andypugh> I was in a bit of a never-never-land in terms of g. Most mechanical testing machins do 10g max, and the Split Hopkinson Bar is good for 5000g to 70,000g. I wanted something a bit in the middle.
[17:43:01] <Loetmichel> aha
[17:48:03] <andypugh> Am I wrong to think that this list is just a _teeny_ bit US-centric? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_historic_mechanical_engineering_landmarks
[17:50:13] <JT-Shop> well it is the American Society of Mechanical Engineers
[17:52:19] <andypugh> Yes, but still. Several say "one of the" and I can immediately think of "the most" which is not in the US.
[17:53:05] <JT-Shop> those biased bastards
[17:54:01] <JT-Shop> probably some damn Yankee
[17:54:05] <andypugh> We get used to it. You spent decades thinking you invented the computer. There again, we didn't admit to ours.
[17:54:40] <JT-Shop> the code breaker one?
[17:55:28] <andypugh> I went to visit the Collussus replica a couple of weeks ago. Apparently parts of it are still "Secret". I thought that was stupid, but then the guy said it did the job as fast as a 1GHz Pentium 4. And it runs at a few kHz...
[18:00:13] <andypugh> Bill Tutte achieved an amazing feat. By analysing how someone else had decoded a message encrypted by the Lorenz SZ40 he figured out the structure of the cyphering machine without ever actually seeing one.
[18:00:35] <andypugh> That's amazing, and I suspect he had help from time-travelling aliens.
[18:01:05] <JT-Shop> that was some neat stuff those guys were doing at Bletchley Park
[18:02:19] <jdhNC> we invented the computer, the radio, the helicopter, fire, and sunrise.
[18:05:23] <andypugh> I'll almost give you powered flight.
[18:05:27] <andypugh> (almost)
[18:07:18] <andypugh> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_flight#Heavier_than_air
[18:07:37] <andypugh> But I think it is fair to say that the Wrights made it practical.
[18:12:35] <andypugh> After a spell on Wikipedia, it seems that Cayley and Stringfellow were both from Yorkshire, so it seems that powered flight is a Yorkshire invention :-)
[18:26:21] <JT-Shop> that operation came out better than I'd hoped
[18:29:07] <JT-Shop> 2 new users and 7 spammers since lunch... slow day for the spammers
[18:36:03] <r00t4rd3d> spammers is more likely spammer.
[18:36:13] <r00t4rd3d> someone is targeting the site
[18:36:36] <JT-Shop> no, the IP's are from around the globe
[18:36:40] <r00t4rd3d> lol
[18:36:58] <r00t4rd3d> zombies
[18:37:00] <JT-Shop> shit I even banned my self once with nnn.nnn.*.* when I pissed
[18:37:09] <JT-Shop> I was
[18:37:26] <JT-Shop> yea they are more active at night
[18:38:19] <r00t4rd3d> thats not what i meant
[18:38:32] <r00t4rd3d> comprised machines.
[18:38:37] <r00t4rd3d> err
[18:38:47] <r00t4rd3d> compromised
[18:39:10] <r00t4rd3d> a spammer is not going to use his own machine to spam right?
[18:39:15] <JT-Shop> I like The Secret Life of Machines
[18:39:20] <r00t4rd3d> no he employees a bot net
[18:39:26] <JT-Shop> dam if I know
[18:39:36] <r00t4rd3d> infected computers that someone controls
[18:39:41] <r00t4rd3d> from like irc
[18:40:01] <JT-Shop> seems to be a lot of trouble for nothing
[18:40:15] <r00t4rd3d> 1 sale and its a win
[18:40:40] <JT-Shop> but they never get past me LOL
[18:40:54] <r00t4rd3d> not what the viagra ad said the other week
[18:41:00] <r00t4rd3d> in the documents page
[18:41:17] <JT-Shop> that is something different from what I can do anything about that is back end stuff
[18:41:44] <JT-Shop> the spammers I'm referring to try and register on the forum
[18:44:00] <r00t4rd3d> automated i am sure. Not someone actually typing out the info. Change the location of the register link for 24 hours and I bet the bad registrations stop briefly.
[18:45:12] <r00t4rd3d> using shit forum software doesnt help either.
[18:47:47] <r00t4rd3d> http://www.kunena.org/
[18:47:53] <r00t4rd3d> they cant even keep their own website up
[18:47:59] <andypugh> JT-Shop: The Tim Hunkin programs?
[18:48:30] <JT-Shop> yea, I love them
[18:49:24] <JT-Shop> yea, if alex_joni could change the log in URL I'd bet it would trickle to a stop
[18:50:13] <andypugh> Who can remove that phishing file?
[18:50:59] <r00t4rd3d> is username my email?
[18:51:01] <JT-Shop> alex_joni jepler cradek SWPadnos_ may be more I don't know
[18:51:17] <JT-Shop> no it's your username
[18:53:10] <JT-Shop> I struggling on how I want to make this part http://imagebin.org/210877
[18:53:42] <JT-Shop> the bottom is only 3/16" thick so welding will suck unless I do a weld from the bottom
[18:54:11] <r00t4rd3d> someone must have deleted my forum account
[18:54:43] <JT-Shop> dunno, just make a new one with plausible info
[18:55:06] <r00t4rd3d> nah
[18:55:30] <andypugh> This was my favourite "Secret Life" episode, lathes as fax machines. http://youtu.be/gA1b4M7h7K8
[18:55:31] <r00t4rd3d> shocker but I dont want my personal info in the hands of spammers and hackers.
[18:55:35] <JT-Shop> oh I did turn on the number spam check in user names today as I got a flood of new spammers last night with numbers in the user name
[18:56:04] <JT-Shop> like I said if your with the CIA just make up something plausible
[18:56:29] <r00t4rd3d> ive already put in one day of trying to register
[18:57:41] <JT-Shop> I don't remember seeing that episode
[19:08:27] <andypugh> I actually vaguely know Rex Garrod
[19:10:44] <JT-Shop> cool
[19:11:00] <JT-Shop> they put together some neat shows
[19:11:32] <JT-Shop> Rex reminds me of Al in Tool Time kinda
[19:15:06] <r00t4rd3d> Ive read like all of the Osama letters
[19:15:07] <ReadError_> JT-Shop: what did you model that in ?
[19:30:22] <andypugh> JT-Shop: For your part: Machine from T-section? Or possibly leave a couple of "prongs" on the upright part, and rivet into the base plate.
[19:31:18] <andypugh> I think that looks like an Alibre rendering.
[19:34:21] <Thetawaves> anybody here used a varispeed s1000?
[19:35:30] <Thetawaves> i've got one, and no current sense resistor pcb... should i just buy pcb for 20$ or should i just buy the proper resistor for much cheaper?
[19:44:21] <andypugh> JT-Shop: Same part, in Inventor Fusion (free Beta on my Mac, so far I am jolly impressed, it is like Sketchup, but accurate. ) http://imagebin.org/210886
[19:44:57] <Valen> physics bitches! http://fuckyeahfluiddynamics.tumblr.com/post/21791370020/a-supercritical-fluid-exists-without-a-distinct
[19:45:09] <pfred1> andypugh I never took you for the Mac type
[19:45:52] <andypugh> No? I have only ever had Macs, I spent £1400 on this one last week. It's lovely (and it should be at that price)
[19:46:51] <Valen> they do have nice hardware
[19:47:08] <Valen> I was thinking of selling billet Al ones, till i found out they already were billet, not cast
[19:47:14] <pfred1> they're slapped together in the same chinese factories as everything else
[19:47:37] <Valen> pfred1: true, but they are slapped together by the best robots
[19:48:11] <Valen> in large corp environs they give people lenovo's because they don't break
[19:48:24] <Valen> the people who break them are given macbooks if they are execs
[19:48:36] <Valen> or get it taken out of their pay if they are grunts ;->
[19:48:53] <pfred1> I'd take it out of their severance pay
[19:49:31] <Valen> eh, they are on the road with them 200 days a year, shit will happen
[19:49:49] <ReadError_> i run a hackintosh
[19:49:58] <ReadError_> hey andypugh, is it open beta?
[19:50:19] <andypugh> http://youtu.be/s-imIrMazBc (fff to 1:15)
[19:50:21] <Valen> but the moral of the story is, macs are less likley to break than a lenovo commercial grade laptop, those are pretty damn good in the first place
[19:50:45] <ReadError_> i got a macbook pro also
[19:50:48] <ReadError_> macs last forever
[19:50:56] <ReadError_> super resale value too
[19:51:13] <Valen> I got an R60 second hand
[19:51:20] <Valen> $200 same specs as a new macbook
[19:51:24] <Valen> (at the time ;->)
[19:52:45] <pfred1> I'm on my $68 second hand PC
[19:53:10] <andypugh> Yeah, I sold my G4 Cube when it was 8 years old for £400, bought a 20" iMac which I have just given to my parents (eBay price £400 for a 6-year-old machine) and bought the 27" iMac. That's 3 computers in 12 years.
[19:54:17] <Valen> I sell my "old" computers to my clients lol
[19:54:58] <ReadError_> andypugh, is inventor fusion open beta or closed?
[19:55:04] <andypugh> Nobody thinks twice about paying what they want to pay for a sofa they like the look of, or a car for that matter. Yes, I can sit on a lawn chair and drive a Kia. But I prefer to like the things I use.
[19:55:10] <andypugh> Open
[19:55:35] <andypugh> http://labs.autodesk.com/technologies/fusion/
[19:55:40] <pfred1> andypugh I love my $68 PC
[19:59:54] <andypugh> Oh, in case you were wondering, that part was modelled between me saying "Alibre" and posting the picture, not in the gap between JT posting his pic. It's pretty slick if you are used to the "Inventor way" (draw a sketch on a face, then extrude or cut it)
[20:08:34] <andypugh> Night folks. Offline till monday now. Have fun.
[21:02:30] <r00t4rd3d> who goes offline for 3 days?
[21:04:16] <pfred1> r00t4rd3d people trapped under large boulders?
[21:04:33] <pfred1> they made a movie about a guy that happened to
[21:05:09] <pfred1> I think he cut off his arm with a pen knife or something equally gnarly
[21:05:50] <pfred1> the thought of all the spam building up in his yahoo mail probably drove him to do it
[21:17:23] <ReadError_> w00t
[21:17:27] <ReadError_> got my new work bench built
[21:17:31] <ReadError_> pretty nice
[21:17:35] <ReadError_> super tall
[21:17:37] <ReadError_> i need a stool
[21:17:38] <ReadError_> heh
[21:18:51] <roycroft> i generally don't like really tall workbenches
[21:19:00] <roycroft> i like the space underneath them though
[21:19:15] <roycroft> one notable exception is my surface plate stand
[21:19:28] <roycroft> i built that so the top of the surface plate is at chest height
[21:19:31] <pfred1> the taller the bench the less force you can exert
[21:19:32] <roycroft> and i love it
[21:19:47] <roycroft> i hate bending over to do layouts and the like
[21:19:49] <ReadError_> its like 37"
[21:19:57] <roycroft> oh, that's not too tall
[21:20:03] <ReadError_> yea not incredibly tall
[21:20:04] <roycroft> just slightly taller than an average bench
[21:20:05] <ReadError_> but tall enough
[21:20:17] <ReadError_> too tall for a desk chair
[21:20:24] <roycroft> my electronics bench is about that tall
[21:20:35] <ReadError_> order your kit yet?\
[21:20:37] <ReadError_> hey pfred1
[21:20:41] <ReadError_> whats that router kit
[21:20:42] <roycroft> but i usually sit on a tall stool when i'm doing soldering and stuff
[21:20:46] <ReadError_> that was posted on kickstart
[21:20:48] <ReadError_> or something
[21:20:53] <ReadError_> it was like 200-300$ ?
[21:21:24] <roycroft> i'm pretty certain i'm getting a zen toolworks kit
[21:21:28] <roycroft> but not 100% decided
[21:21:47] <roycroft> so i just have the money sitting in the bank waiting until i'm sure what i want
[21:22:03] <roycroft> i'm still pondering spindles too
[21:28:54] <pfred1> roycroft what kind of a machine are you building?
[21:35:12] <roycroft> cnc router for milling pcbs and doing some engraving
[21:35:47] <ReadError_> brew lately roycroft?
[21:36:16] <pfred1> roycroft get a pneumatic spindle for the hight RPM
[21:36:16] <roycroft> not since i made the wee heavy about three weeks ago
[21:36:22] <roycroft> it's still in the fermenterator
[21:36:33] <roycroft> i can't brew again until i pull it out of there
[21:36:54] <pfred1> I can't brew
[21:37:02] <roycroft> pfred1: i had considered that, but milling a pcb sometimes takes several hours, and i don't want to push my compressor that much
[21:37:09] <roycroft> nor do i want to put up with the noise for that long
[21:37:20] <pfred1> it is going to be noisy
[21:37:22] <ReadError_> you _CANT_ brew?
[21:37:25] <ReadError_> how is that so?
[21:37:38] <roycroft> but i'll be using 1mm or so tooling, so i do need really fast spindle sped
[21:37:41] <roycroft> speed
[21:37:52] <pfred1> ReadError_ not with this 4 miles up the road from me http://www.dogfish.com/
[21:38:19] <ReadError_> yea, DFH is nasty
[21:38:24] <ReadError_> ;p
[21:38:25] <pfred1> ?
[21:38:38] <roycroft> sam is an interesting brewer
[21:38:41] <pfred1> I guess they do ship the swill out of state
[21:38:43] <roycroft> and i like some of his stuff
[21:38:59] <roycroft> but some of it is quite not scottish
[21:39:11] <ReadError_> idk, the 120 is overhyped and i dont like it
[21:39:15] <roycroft> we get some dogfish head stuff here in oregon
[21:39:16] <pfred1> DFH is belgian style ales
[21:39:18] <ReadError_> my fav brew, is bells 2 hearted
[21:39:21] <roycroft> which is about as out of state as it gets
[21:39:48] <ReadError_> i love my RIMS
[21:40:31] <roycroft> i haven't designed my new brew system yet
[21:40:31] <pfred1> ReadError_ they go with your GRILLE?
[21:40:37] <roycroft> i'm still doin git the old fashioned way
[21:40:43] <roycroft> all manual
[21:41:24] <roycroft> i'm pondering rims
[21:41:25] <ReadError_> heh pfred1
[21:41:27] <roycroft> and i'm pondering herms
[21:41:34] <roycroft> and i'm pondering some kind of hybrid setup
[21:41:54] <roycroft> i'm even thinking about a gas-fired system with solenoid control over the gas burners
[21:42:22] <roycroft> i may just cut open my sanke kegs and build a bigger manual setup for now - i'm tired of 19l batches all the time
[21:42:48] <ReadError_> http://p.twimg.com/AkOkEbiCAAIGsQu.jpg:large
[21:43:07] <roycroft> i have some pretty pristine kegs, and want to wait until i know exactly what i want as my ultimate system before cutting them open and welding on them
[21:43:28] <ReadError_> http://p.twimg.com/AkOkIHHCIAAa8t3.jpg:large
[21:43:31] <pfred1> I like beer fermented in wood
[21:43:34] <roycroft> aah, the venerable toolbox rims setup
[21:43:53] <pfred1> I just had some burton baton and it was nice
[21:43:58] <toastydeath> http://sharlot.org/archives/history/dayspast/images/2003_03_16.jpg
[21:44:01] <toastydeath> what a toolchest this would make
[21:44:07] <roycroft> i like all sorts of different beers
[21:44:31] * roycroft thinks he'd like dinner right now, though
[21:44:41] <ReadError_> why do you use metric roycroft ?
[21:44:47] <ReadError_> when you live in america ;/
[21:50:25] <pfred1> I remember when the USA switched to metric
[21:50:42] <pfred1> I was in 6th grade it was 1975?
[21:51:01] <pfred1> it lasted until everyone had to go gas up their cars
[21:51:32] <pfred1> so not quite a week
[21:53:55] <ReadError_> im brewin this weekend awww yeaaa
[21:54:31] <jdhNC> pfred: I thought it was 1976. I was in 7th grade.
[21:54:38] <pfred1> the liquor store always has beer in it
[21:55:00] <pfred1> jdhNC it was a long time ago it might have been 1976 that is why I ended it with a question mark
[21:55:23] <pfred1> in school they got us all metriced out
[21:55:33] <pfred1> then the next week they were like well we're done with that!
[21:55:43] <ReadError_> pfred1, still, nothing tops a fridge with some kegs of homeberw
[21:56:14] <pfred1> ReadError_ i leave the important things to the professionals
[21:56:55] <pfred1> DFH ain't playing no games
[21:59:30] <jdhNC> The National Council of Teachers of Mathematics (NCTM) started the National Metric Week tradition, with the first one during the week of 10 May 1976
[22:01:21] <jdhNC> how/where do you buy non-sucky drill bits?
[22:01:31] <toastydeath> how much are you willing to pay
[22:01:36] <ReadError_> amazon!
[22:01:38] <jdhNC> yeah, that's the problem.
[22:01:51] <archivist> what material are you drilling
[22:02:09] <jdhNC> plastics, Al, mild steel
[22:02:12] <toastydeath> the very best drills, in small sizes, are 30-45 bucks per bit.
[22:02:23] <toastydeath> but good hss bits are 1-2 bucks per
[22:02:24] <jdhNC> that's not happening.
[22:02:26] <ReadError_> anyone here cut delrin before?
[22:02:32] <toastydeath> yep, I have
[22:02:36] <jdhNC> Read: just cut lots of it.
[22:02:37] <ReadError_> cuts nice?
[22:02:43] <toastydeath> cuts like plastic
[22:02:45] <r00t4rd3d> jdhNC, http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?item=160773149605&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWNX%3AIT&_ssn=jtg1969&rt=nc&LH_BIN=1
[22:02:48] <ReadError_> does it gum up?
[22:02:55] <toastydeath> not really, but the chips get in the way
[22:02:57] <jdhNC> not if you get the chips out of the way
[22:02:57] <toastydeath> but they break easy.
[22:02:58] <pfred1> jdhNC where I was they switched the gasoline pumps to liters so it was more than just in the schools
[22:03:04] <ReadError_> what RPM you use?
[22:03:10] <toastydeath> whatever you feel like
[22:03:12] <jdhNC> pfred1: wow, never saw that.
[22:03:24] <toastydeath> it'll cut balls to the wall if you want to
[22:03:25] <jdhNC> I was using my router, it says 30,000 but who knows.
[22:03:42] <jdhNC> I had to slow the feed rate down due to a floppy endmill
[22:04:00] <toastydeath> as long as your machine can maintain a good feed rate, cut as fast as you please.
[22:04:17] <toastydeath> you will have melting problems if you lose feed per revolution/tooth
[22:04:42] <pfred1> I wonder if a chip breaking endmill might help?
[22:04:59] <jdhNC> I was using a single flute. more probably would have been better.
[22:05:12] <toastydeath> no, chipbreaking works on mild steels
[22:05:22] <toastydeath> stainless can sometimes be chipbroken
[22:05:23] <ReadError_> i want to cut an iphone case in delrin + aluminum
[22:05:26] <toastydeath> but plastics? no way.
[22:05:31] <ReadError_> ill do that as a project some day
[22:05:33] <jdhNC> I think a good onsrud woudl be the thing
[22:05:49] <ReadError_> i got a niagara bit on amazon for ~10
[22:05:52] <ReadError_> its super sharp
[22:06:01] <ReadError_> end mill
[22:06:11] <toastydeath> who was looking for drills again
[22:06:27] <toastydeath> basically any real tool manufacturer, not ultra-cheap-bulk stuff, will make good drills for like 1-2 bucks a pop
[22:07:11] <toastydeath> and that range of drillbit usually won't have a crazy geometry on the tip so you can resharpen it in the shop
[22:07:41] <r00t4rd3d> fish tail plunge tip?
[22:08:03] <pfred1> all those crazy geometries seem to just grind off to me
[22:08:14] <toastydeath> r00t4rd3d, no
[22:08:27] <toastydeath> pfred1: dunno, i've had great success with them
[22:08:32] <ReadError_> r00t4rd3d, finishing the router this weekend?
[22:08:51] <r00t4rd3d> its all apart and Im painting it
[22:09:02] <toastydeath> bits with parabolic and spherical points to them, with crazy split-point grinding
[22:09:06] <r00t4rd3d> so probably not
[22:09:53] <jdhNC> do you sharpen them by hand/jig or a machine?
[22:09:53] <pfred1> toastydeath I just have a pitbull sharpener and I relieve the back by hand
[22:09:57] <jdhNC> (I throw them away)
[22:10:27] <toastydeath> jdhNC you have to send them out to a shop that has a 5 or 6 axis tool sharpener
[22:10:30] <r00t4rd3d> when metal bits go bad on me i use them on wood :)
[22:10:46] <ReadError_> r00t4rd3d, using wood hardener ?
[22:11:01] <pfred1> I like sharp bits for wood too
[22:11:10] <r00t4rd3d> no
[22:11:24] <r00t4rd3d> spray paint
[22:11:25] <jdhNC> finding one close ot the right size is pretty much it for me.
[22:11:32] <ReadError_> you should get some wood hardener
[22:11:35] <ReadError_> put it on 1st
[22:11:38] <r00t4rd3d> too late
[22:11:45] <pfred1> I like the minwax wood hardener
[22:12:01] <pfred1> which i think is just thinned out fiberglass resin
[22:12:03] <ReadError_> whats in wood hardener ?
[22:12:05] <ReadError_> ah
[22:12:28] <r00t4rd3d> I dont plan on sticking with mdf anyway
[22:12:42] <pfred1> it is this clear liquid you pour onto wood it soaks in then when it sets up the wood is like iron
[22:13:16] <pfred1> usually you use it on wood that is dry rotted
[22:13:31] <_ink> hi all
[22:13:35] <ReadError_> ohai friend
[22:13:49] * ReadError_ makes _ink and roycroft hug
[22:13:55] <_ink> roycroft!!!
[22:14:23] * ink bound to get ghosted at some point I let my nick registration lapse and someone took it :|
[22:14:49] <ink> roycroft: worry not, my CNCs are metric ;P
[22:15:42] <ReadError> i didnt think nicks expired?
[22:15:52] <pfred1> yes they do
[22:16:08] <pfred1> well the registration does on them
[22:16:09] <ReadError> Registered : Jul 06 00:46:12 2004 (7 years, 43 weeks, 3 days, 02:19:37 ago)
[22:16:11] <ReadError> wow heh
[22:16:16] <ReadError> i was still in HS then
[22:16:33] <pfred1> mine expired but I got it back
[22:16:47] <ReadError> yea, big demand for pfred1 im sure ;)
[22:16:49] <ReadError> jk
[22:17:14] <pfred1> when i moved i was offline for about 4 years
[22:18:05] <ReadError> wow
[22:18:10] <ReadError> and you are still alive?
[22:18:30] * ReadError would withdraw long before that time
[22:18:30] <pfred1> sure why not? I've been offline most of my life
[22:18:42] <ReadError> ive been online most of mine :)
[22:18:57] <Tom_itx> you're missing out then
[22:19:05] <pfred1> we didn't have PCs when I was a kid
[22:19:14] <ReadError> Tom_itx, i am?
[22:19:29] <Tom_itx> not that you know of :)
[22:19:42] <jdhNC> I had a class in 1978 with a Wang(tm) and a TRS80 M1
[22:19:52] <ReadError> heheheh wang
[22:20:08] <Tom_itx> i recall when HP brought out the first calculator
[22:20:29] <ReadError> scumbag teachers used to say
[22:20:30] <ReadError> learn math
[22:20:34] <pfred1> jdhNC the last day of school when I was a senior I found this wooden box looking thing befond the door of an advanced mathe class and I was told it was a "computer"
[22:20:36] <ReadError> you wont carry around a calculator
[22:20:39] * ReadError looks at iphone
[22:20:58] <pfred1> jdhNC before that I didn't evne know the school i went to had one
[22:21:38] <jdhNC> I'd bet most of my school didn't know either.
[22:21:59] <pfred1> kids i went to school with had computers
[22:22:16] <jdhNC> really? what kind?
[22:22:25] <pfred1> back then the town I was in was the 7th richest in the USA per capita
[22:22:39] <pfred1> mostly apple ][s
[22:24:28] <jdhNC> I don't know of anyone that had a computer back then (Nashville)
[22:25:15] <pfred1> I grew up in a town named summit
[22:25:28] <pfred1> dennis ritchie went to my high school he wrote C
[22:25:52] <pfred1> so its not like we don't have a history with computers :)
[22:26:30] <pfred1> but he sure didn't learn about them in school
[22:28:44] <roycroft> i started out on a pdp-8 that i accessed via teletype on a 300 baud modem with an acoustic coupler to the phone line
[22:28:55] <roycroft> back when i was a sophomore in high school
[22:29:19] <pfred1> I ripped apart a PDP 11/34 that did booking at Newark International Airport
[22:29:33] <pfred1> it is a tool cabinet in my garage now
[22:29:43] <jdhNC> I have two PDP 11/73's still in service at work.
[22:29:54] <roycroft> cool
[22:30:06] <pfred1> jdhNC why?
[22:30:20] <jdhNC> they work, and are kind of hard to replace.
[22:30:20] <roycroft> if they still do the job, why not?
[22:30:31] <roycroft> other than excessive power consumption
[22:30:32] <pfred1> because electricity isn't free?
[22:30:40] <jdhNC> they are tiny
[22:30:48] <jdhNC> relatively. Not much power anyway
[22:31:00] <pfred1> oh the 11/34 I stripped was about 8 feet tall it was the size of a small closet
[22:31:19] <pfred1> but that is what Sawsalls are for
[22:31:19] <roycroft> not 7 feet tall?
[22:31:34] <roycroft> dec used standard rack sizes
[22:31:41] <pfred1> roycroft I don't know maybe I didn't break out a tape measure before I cut it in half
[22:31:42] <jdhNC> these are in BA-23 cases. 19" rack, maybe 12" tall
[22:31:49] <roycroft> and standard racks are 7' or 11' tall
[22:32:16] <pfred1> it was frigging tall that is all I remember
[22:32:17] <roycroft> i don't think i've ever seen an 11' rack cabinet though - only relay racks that size
[22:32:30] <roycroft> there are 15' relay racks too, but they're quite uncommon
[22:32:31] <pfred1> I have a picture of it now
[22:32:53] <pfred1> http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/5600/p3060008.jpg
[22:32:58] <pfred1> it ain't so tall anymore
[22:33:16] <jdhNC> I replaced two others years ago with some MicroChannel PC's with custom MCA cards.
[22:33:25] * roycroft doesn't want to see a chopped-up pdp-11
[22:33:29] * roycroft would become sad
[22:33:32] <pfred1> why not?
[22:33:41] <jdhNC> I can still get replacement PDP's... can't get microchannel boxes
[22:33:41] <pfred1> it is a nice tool cabinet
[22:34:02] <pfred1> accuride ball bearing drawer slides top of the pops!
[22:34:56] <pfred1> the drawers are gutted out hard drives
[22:35:06] <jdhNC> RL02?
[22:36:20] <ReadError> so roycroft
[22:36:22] <pfred1> I just found out the older brother of another kid I went to school with made computers for semour cray
[22:36:24] <ReadError> why do you use metric?
[22:36:52] <roycroft> because it's easy
[22:37:04] <pfred1> roycroft what is easy about it?
[22:37:09] <roycroft> and because almost the entire world uses it
[22:37:11] <ReadError> its base10
[22:37:14] <ReadError> but you are in america
[22:37:19] <ReadError> so...
[22:37:25] <roycroft> right
[22:37:30] <pfred1> inches are base 10 too
[22:37:34] <roycroft> and the us officially adopted the metric system in the 1870s
[22:37:38] <roycroft> and then again in the 1970s
[22:37:38] <ink> hi roycroft :)
[22:37:40] <ink> long time no see
[22:37:43] <roycroft> howdy
[22:37:49] <roycroft> nice seeing you, ink
[22:37:53] <ReadError> roycroft
[22:37:59] <ReadError> but you wouldnt goto the LHBS
[22:38:02] <roycroft> you're one of the few that i missed when i left that channel on efnet
[22:38:03] <ReadError> with a grainbill in metric
[22:38:04] <ReadError> would you?
[22:38:06] <ink> :D
[22:38:08] <roycroft> sure
[22:38:30] <roycroft> "i'll have a 25kg sack of thos. fawcett golden promise, please"
[22:38:34] <roycroft> and they get the sack of grain
[22:39:15] <pfred1> I have metric scales I think they're clumsy
[22:39:24] <pfred1> all the millimeters look alike to me
[22:39:24] <roycroft> if i'm getting less than a full sack i'll roughly translate into pounds
[22:39:31] <roycroft> i don't buy grain on a per-batch basis
[22:40:21] <roycroft> i'm building a cnc router, ink
[22:40:38] <ink> ooh
[22:40:51] <ink> very cool, I've been wanting to try my hand at that as well
[22:40:52] <pfred1> I built a Z axis but I've been too busy to get back to it
[22:40:58] <roycroft> so i can prototype pcbs for my temperature controller
[22:41:03] <ink> nice
[22:41:21] * ink still wants to make his stirplate project
[22:41:25] <ink> stirplate-pro :)
[22:41:31] <roycroft> i'm pretty much decided on a zen toolworks kit
[22:41:44] <ink> zen toolworks?
[22:41:47] * roycroft has three corning stir plates now, and thinks he probably won't need any more
[22:41:48] <pfred1> I think etching is the way to go for making PCBs
[22:42:01] <roycroft> i do not want to mess with the chemicals
[22:42:02] <ink> roycroft: well I have some ideas on how to make stir plates better
[22:42:16] <roycroft> and alignment is an issue with etching
[22:42:21] <ink> so if I ever get off my lazy ass and do it, you can sell those and I'll ship you 3 new ones ;P
[22:42:25] <roycroft> and i would *still* need a cnc router for drilling
[22:42:27] <pfred1> roycroft what is to mess with you dump the board in then take it out
[22:42:37] <pfred1> roycroft how come?
[22:42:38] <roycroft> storage and disposal
[22:42:47] <pfred1> I drill mine out with a drill press
[22:43:06] <roycroft> do you make double-sided boards?
[22:43:10] <pfred1> nope
[22:43:13] <roycroft> ok
[22:43:18] <roycroft> that's the difference
[22:43:21] <ink> heh
[22:43:22] <pfred1> how are you going to plate through?
[22:43:27] <ink> we had a pcb etcher up on campus
[22:43:33] <ink> it was very cool, but a bit tricky
[22:43:38] <roycroft> my plan is to drill first
[22:43:41] <ink> the copper does not adhere so well to the fiberglass
[22:43:45] <roycroft> halfway through each side
[22:43:51] <pfred1> roycroft I see you have a plan
[22:43:57] <ink> so drill your holes before you route the traces
[22:43:57] <roycroft> so i don't have to use a sacrificial base
[22:44:07] <roycroft> then i can plate the vias
[22:44:11] <roycroft> then route each side
[22:44:13] <ink> or else the copper can get snagged in the drill bit and it rips the trace right off the board
[22:44:19] <ink> also, be careful building the thing
[22:44:31] <ink> if you have to rework any parts, traces can lift off the board and get very annoying
[22:44:51] <ink> maybe you can silkscreen on a soldermask layer or something and solve all those problems, iunno
[22:44:53] <roycroft> i've been pondering this for a long time
[22:44:55] <pfred1> ink that doesn't happen if you have the proper sized plating rings
[22:44:57] <ink> but those are the problems we ran into
[22:45:05] <ink> we did get several good boards out of that thing though
[22:45:10] <ink> some of which are still in use
[22:45:16] <ink> pfred1: ah, yeah
[22:45:20] <ink> we were still very new to it
[22:45:38] <pfred1> plus i have a dedicated high speed drill press for when I make PCBs
[22:45:44] <ink> I never used it myself, even
[22:45:54] <ink> it was mainly my groupmate who was doing the layout
[22:45:54] <pfred1> I'm sure that helps
[22:46:02] <ink> nice :)
[22:46:12] <ink> still, plated vias you have to solder by hand
[22:46:13] <roycroft> i'm sure i'll have to deal with a lot of issues i didn't consider when i start doing this
[22:46:16] <roycroft> but this is my plan
[22:46:23] <ink> and you need to get the alignment between sides right-on
[22:46:35] <pfred1> that is called registration
[22:46:36] <roycroft> first, i'll drill two very small (like 1mm or 0.5mm) holes along one edge of the board, precisely spaced
[22:46:54] <roycroft> then i'll us a webcam to optically align the spindle over the holes
[22:47:17] <pfred1> why not just use a right angle on your work table?
[22:47:28] <roycroft> and let the cnc controller shift the x and y axes to align with the holes
[22:47:29] <pfred1> like normal people would
[22:47:44] <ink> nice
[22:47:48] <ink> computer vision ftw
[22:47:49] <roycroft> because pcbs do not have precision edges
[22:47:56] <roycroft> nor are they a standard size
[22:47:58] <pfred1> roycroft why not?
[22:47:59] * ink has only played with OpenCV a little bit
[22:48:01] <ink> it is quite neat
[22:48:22] <roycroft> i don't want to mess around with alignment all the time
[22:48:50] <roycroft> so after i do that, i probe the board to build a topographic map of it
[22:48:55] <roycroft> (pcbs are not very flat)
[22:48:57] <pfred1> well you let me know how that works out for you for me I'm a big believer in positive stops
[22:49:00] <roycroft> then i can drill one side half-way through
[22:49:08] <roycroft> flip it over
[22:49:11] <roycroft> align and map
[22:49:16] <roycroft> drill the rest of the way
[22:49:23] <roycroft> remove, plate the vias
[22:49:34] <roycroft> (i don't want to be soldering wires through the vias - that's dumb)
[22:49:42] <roycroft> replace, align and map
[22:49:44] <roycroft> route one side
[22:49:51] <roycroft> flip, align and map, route the other side
[22:49:51] <pfred1> they make this stuff that looks like breakaway pencil lead for homebrewed plating
[22:50:28] <pfred1> it is the "WTG"
[22:51:20] <roycroft> i don't see any fundmental flaws with my plan
[22:51:39] <roycroft> other than it's going to take some time to get the optical alignment and the topographic map stuff working right
[22:51:47] <pfred1> neither did the captian when he set sail in the Titanic
[22:51:52] <roycroft> once i have that all dialed in it should work fine
[22:52:01] <pfred1> doesn't mean it ended well for him though
[22:52:09] <jdhNC> you have a plan. Go for it.
[22:52:17] <roycroft> i don't risk death for myself and thousands of others if my plan does not work out
[22:52:34] <pfred1> I'll never forget a picture i saw once of the back lot of the Mazda factory
[22:52:47] <ink> hehe
[22:52:51] <pfred1> with their 1,700 failed rotary engine prototypes in it
[22:52:53] <ink> roycroft: well keep in mind
[22:53:00] <pfred1> covered about 3 acres
[22:53:02] * ink has a lasercutter
[22:53:11] <ink> so if you need any parts made, lemme know :)
[22:53:13] <roycroft> yes, i'm aware you have a lasercutter
[22:53:14] <roycroft> ok
[22:53:34] <roycroft> have you ever lasercut pcbs?
[22:53:42] <ink> no, but a friend of mine did
[22:54:02] <ink> he spraypainted some copper-clad black, and etched off the paint
[22:54:10] <ink> and used the remaining paint as the etch-resist
[22:54:18] <roycroft> hmm
[22:54:38] <roycroft> i should imagine one could drill with the laser as well
[22:54:44] <ink> but if you are going to do that, you might as well just photo-resist etch it
[22:54:52] <pfred1> through copper clad PCB?
[22:54:54] <ink> my laser is not that powerful ;P
[22:55:00] <ink> and reflective surfaces are bad
[22:55:08] <roycroft> teh ebay has big lasers :)
[22:55:13] <ink> yes well
[22:55:16] <ink> some day :)
[22:55:28] * ink is not quite there yet
[22:55:30] <pfred1> lets face facts if it was the way to go then every manufacturer would be doing it
[22:55:40] * roycroft pictures ink with a 5kw laser cutter
[22:55:52] <roycroft> i do not intend to manufacture pcbs
[22:56:01] <roycroft> i'm going to use this setup for prototyping
[22:56:05] <pfred1> that i believe
[22:56:13] <ink> >:)\
[22:56:18] * ink shoots the moon
[22:56:23] * ink writes his name
[22:56:43] <roycroft> when i need them manufactured, there are places that do that very well much more efficiently than i could ever do
[22:56:44] <pfred1> some circuits you have ot have etched boards
[22:56:53] * ink draws a giant troll face
[22:56:55] <pfred1> but not many
[22:57:32] <roycroft> i also want to use this router for engraving, and for making chassis cut-outs
[22:57:38] <roycroft> neither of which i could do with an etching setup
[22:58:00] <pfred1> http://img682.imageshack.us/img682/4395/drillboard.jpg
[22:58:10] <roycroft> i am not going to claim that the method i'm going to be using is superior to etching
[22:58:23] <roycroft> but i think it will suit my needs well
[22:58:46] <pfred1> roycroft someday maybe you'll find out
[22:58:53] <jdhNC> heh
[22:59:10] <roycroft> hes
[22:59:12] <roycroft> yes, rather
[22:59:13] * pfred1 prefers to know rather than think
[22:59:23] <roycroft> in the meantime, i don't appreciate being told i'm wrong
[22:59:39] <jdhNC> what if you are?
[22:59:45] <roycroft> there is usually more than one way to accomplish something
[22:59:49] <ink> uh oh
[22:59:53] <ink> somebody is wrong on the internet
[22:59:56] <pfred1> yeah the right way and all the other ways
[22:59:57] <roycroft> if i am i'll find that out
[23:00:18] <ink> roycroft: the routed worked nicely for us
[23:00:20] <roycroft> a lot of people mill pcbs
[23:00:24] <ink> it had a very quick turn time
[23:00:27] <pfred1> first off i have to wonder if you need a PCB to prototype a circuit at all
[23:00:29] <ink> and little manual work required
[23:00:37] <ink> there were a few things we had to watch out for
[23:00:44] <roycroft> i prototype on breadboards
[23:00:45] <ink> and you had to be a little careful soldering
[23:00:58] <jdhNC> pfred1: I'd like to mill some for one-off stuff.
[23:00:59] <ink> but it should work
[23:01:02] <roycroft> the next step is to design the pcb based on the tested, breadboarded design
[23:01:10] <jdhNC> which is why I got my router originally.
[23:01:15] <pfred1> roycroft me too http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/7615/p7100104.jpg
[23:01:24] <roycroft> and the next step is to send the job out for production
[23:01:26] <ink> once you have a tool that will just build stuff for you, you don't have to be quite as careful when designing
[23:01:48] <ink> you can make things more impulsively, and if it doesn't work, just change it and mill it again
[23:02:01] <ink> and not wait 2 weeks to get it back from the fab
[23:02:10] <pfred1> ink whenever I design something the thought foremost in my mind is the simple fact that i do have to make it someday
[23:02:22] <pfred1> that does influence my decisions
[23:02:24] <ink> yep :)
[23:02:35] <ink> I shoudl hope so
[23:02:41] <ink> well I don't mean 'build the whole thing'
[23:02:47] <pfred1> that is why most things I set out to do work for me
[23:02:50] <jdhNC> milling pcb's is a really nice idea. Other than the implementation anyway.
[23:02:53] <ink> but whenever we lay out a board and have it made
[23:03:05] <ink> we spend a good deal of time double-triple-quadruple checking stuff
[23:03:07] <roycroft> i find the challenges of milling pcbs ineresting
[23:03:09] <pfred1> jdhNC its OK until bits hit copper
[23:03:14] <jdhNC> sure
[23:03:18] <ink> because if it doesn't work, it is very expensive and takes a long time
[23:03:20] <jdhNC> or doesn't hit copper quite right
[23:03:28] <ink> I mean, you still have to populate the boards
[23:03:33] <pfred1> doesn't matter copper sux to mill
[23:03:41] <roycroft> that's why the folks who successfully do it do the topo thing
[23:03:45] <roycroft> that seems to be the key
[23:03:51] <pfred1> stuff likes to string too much
[23:04:04] <roycroft> either to get really flat boards and keep them flat with a vacuum base
[23:04:14] <ink> jdhNC: I'm kinda interested in something that lays down copper instead of etching it away
[23:04:17] <roycroft> or map out the board contours and adjust accordingly
[23:04:26] <jdhNC> that woudl be cool
[23:04:28] <pfred1> ink they make circuit printers
[23:04:29] <ink> like you could make essentially a sewing machine, that just glues magnet wire to a surface
[23:04:29] <ink> heh
[23:04:33] <ink> or that
[23:04:39] <ink> conductive ink
[23:04:40] <jdhNC> inkjet with copper
[23:04:43] <ink> yeah
[23:04:45] <pfred1> ink but you don't want to know what the ink to print transistors costs
[23:04:46] <ink> hmm
[23:04:53] <ink> well
[23:05:05] <ink> have you heard about some of the crazy stuff they are doing with graphene?
[23:05:29] <ink> apparently you can laser-etch wires, capacitors and transistors into graphene oxide film
[23:05:33] <pfred1> gold is a lot cheaper than transistor ink
[23:05:39] <ink> it is weird stuff
[23:05:45] * roycroft just wonders why there are no irc channels where people don't argue and act superior all the time
[23:05:56] <ink> heh
[23:06:04] <ink> I just saw it in some video a few weeks ago
[23:06:22] <ink> interesting stuff
[23:06:38] <ink> but I have no clue how it really works ;P
[23:06:39] <pfred1> ink yeah videos or it didn't happen is my motto
[23:06:44] <ink> hehe
[23:07:33] <pfred1> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHPKaHLzXes
[23:08:48] <pfred1> that is inside this now http://i.imgur.com/PHZCW.jpg
[23:09:07] <pfred1> runs better in there go figure
[23:09:30] <ink> nice :)
[23:09:39] <pfred1> thanks :)
[23:09:59] <pfred1> the rest of my design is more radical but I haven't gotten on with it lately
[23:10:24] <pfred1> I'm intrigued to see if it is going to work
[23:11:11] <pfred1> the melamine dream machine!
[23:12:53] <pfred1> I made my own motor drivers and everything http://i.imgur.com/jnbx6.jpg
[23:13:26] <pfred1> look ma, no etching! http://i.imgur.com/l1z0g.jpg
[23:14:08] <jdhNC> and a Simpson
[23:14:13] <pfred1> I have 3
[23:14:34] <pfred1> well the one i just got I need to refurbish yet
[23:14:56] <pfred1> it is in some pretty tough shape ATM http://i.imgur.com/r5W20.jpg
[23:15:14] <jdhNC> heh, battery was long gone
[23:15:19] <pfred1> but I'll completely strip it down and remanufacture it
[23:15:35] * pfred1 likes his 260s