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[00:12:48] <alex4nder> I think it is time to go through the pain of an RTAI kernel build on Debian.
[00:13:00] <alex4nder> since booting this Atom with a CD-ROM is a non-starter.
[00:38:33] <Jymmm> alex4nder: make a usb stick and try that
[00:38:54] <Jymmm> alex4nder: or did you do something funky
[00:41:50] <alex4nder> Jymmm: I did.
[00:42:37] <alex4nder> but the RTAI build is starting.
[02:24:39] <DJ9DJ> moin
[02:26:09] <Jymmm> howdy
[02:27:12] <Jymmm> DJ9DJ: I made out like a bandit at the flea market today, picked up a camelbak for $1
[02:27:21] <Jymmm> (used)
[02:27:51] <DJ9DJ> hi jymmm
[02:27:56] <DJ9DJ> what is a camelbak?
[02:28:30] <Jymmm> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CamelBak
[02:29:57] <Jymmm> DJ9DJ: Originally they were used to replace canteens in the military after they found that soldiers weren't drinking enough water, even though that had it.
[02:30:41] <DJ9DJ> ui, nice
[02:30:44] <Jymmm> DJ9DJ: It's a bladder held in a backpack of sorts with a hose and bite valve right where you can take a drink anytime you need it.
[02:31:01] <DJ9DJ> what do you want to use it for?
[02:31:11] <DJ9DJ> next walk through the gobi desert? ;)
[02:31:51] <Jymmm> Anythign actually... hiking, backpacking, going to the flea market, etc.
[02:32:29] <Jymmm> farmers market, etc
[02:32:35] <DJ9DJ> hehe
[02:32:44] <DJ9DJ> okay :)
[02:32:54] <Jymmm> anytiem your outdoors
[02:32:57] <DJ9DJ> i think for $1 its really ok :)
[02:33:51] <Jymmm> well, if you never carry water with you anywhere, you may not see the benefit in it.
[02:34:18] <DJ9DJ> yeah, that might be the point ;)
[02:34:59] <Jymmm> All it takes is one time your car breaks down in the summer and you have to walk to get it fixed.
[02:35:48] <DJ9DJ> :)
[04:30:53] <mazafaka> Heh, wanted to ask Loetmitchel on the tactics of stainless steel milling on machines which lack torque on the spindle and rigidity of the frame...
[04:33:39] <mazafaka> Our huge coordinate-drilling machin denies to mill stainless steel on really low RPMs when we use quite big disk mill bits. Even wanted to use end mill bits, but the cut we needed is too tiny...
[04:57:05] <archivist> mazafaka, it is hard/impossible to take fine cuts on work hardening materials
[05:01:13] <archivist> that and stainless contains chrome which is nasty on the cutting tool
[05:05:42] <mazafaka> That's why I used to use low RPM and moderate feedrate
[05:06:46] <mazafaka> not high but safe for the cutting tool RPM with high possible feedrate although producing relatively thin chips
[05:09:57] <mazafaka> sometimes during adjusting of the feedrate of cutting stainless steel with an end mill bit, vibration and noise reduce greatly, that was I think the preferable regime. But I can not do the using disk mill bit. The spindle's torque is too low. And I can not find any tiny end mill bit.
[05:10:57] <archivist> if the feed is too small you get rubbing
[05:13:50] <archivist> also with light/thin sections the tool geometry can lift the material, this needs small or zero rake
[05:27:05] <Loetmichel> mornin'
[05:45:38] <Jymmm> ug
[09:00:18] <mazafaka> Loetmichel: didn't you read what I had written before some cvillu renamed himself to Loetmichel
[09:12:59] <JT-Shop> http://imagebin.org/210251
[09:15:29] <JT-Shop> http://imagebin.org/210252
[09:16:01] <Tom_itx> what angle is that?
[09:16:07] <Tom_itx> looks nice btw
[09:16:15] <JT-Shop> thanks, what angle?
[09:16:35] <Tom_itx> the screw fixture doesn't look at a 90 deg
[09:16:58] <Tom_itx> maybe it's the light
[09:17:01] <JT-Shop> no, it is 13 degrees of tilt, I cheated
[09:17:11] <Tom_itx> i new it!
[09:17:24] <JT-Shop> it's supposed to be 13 deg 3 min
[09:17:57] <JT-Shop> the only angle measurement on the original #1 carriage plans
[09:18:56] <Tom_itx> i don't see any powder residue yet
[09:19:02] <JT-Shop> notice the rear mounting hole is further back from the screw to clear the elevating screw
[09:19:19] <Tom_itx> yeah
[09:19:32] <JT-Shop> need to make the square keys for the trunnion tops
[09:21:11] <JT-Shop> we are shooting 3 Coehorn mortars this afternoon
[09:21:19] <Tom_itx> i started mounting my drivers to the heatsink. i wonder if free air will cool it enough, i wanna stick it out the back of the case
[09:21:38] <Tom_itx> nice
[09:24:47] <mazafaka> Machine of death, heh, bad machine, evil machine!
[09:24:57] <archivist> JT-Shop, has the barrel been proof fired before you got it?
[09:29:11] <andypugh> I noticed that the guns from the Mary Rose were mainly breech-loading. I wonder if, in Napoleonic times, breech-loading was considered old-fashioned?
[09:30:22] <archivist> we saw a failed barrel at the Birmingham Proof House
[09:30:36] <Tom_itx> i bet that was a mess
[09:30:54] <Tom_itx> bulged and split or blown open?
[09:31:26] <archivist> a chunk was missing near the powder hole
[09:33:00] <archivist> trajectory of the chunk probably where you would stand behind the gun
[09:34:49] <Tom_itx> what era were bronze barrels?
[09:35:55] <archivist> iirc the blown barrel we saw was a 1700's bronze
[09:46:17] <mazafaka> iirc = isn't it really cool
[09:46:48] <andypugh> If I Recall Correctly
[09:47:12] <mazafaka> iirc = in internet relay chat
[09:47:30] <mazafaka> http://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/IIRC , andypugh
[09:48:08] <Tom_itx> haha, if i really cared
[09:48:19] <mazafaka> International Interdisciplinary Research Colloquium would say be careful to not hurt anyone wis this gun
[09:49:16] <Tom_itx> Iraqi Islamic Reconciliation Conference wouldn't
[09:51:56] <mazafaka> Interstate Insurance Receivership Compact would
[09:53:54] <mazafaka> For powder-case, one may need a bag women used to use. That's why not many people like guns.
[10:07:53] <Loetmichel> mazafaka: Cylly is my backup-nick
[10:08:13] <pfred1> Loetmichel don't be Cylly
[10:11:30] <Loetmichel> pfred1: Cylly comes from my early years as i was in a Sci-Fi-fanclun
[10:11:33] <Loetmichel> club
[10:11:49] <Loetmichel> its a a nick form of Cyloner.
[10:12:03] <pfred1> Cylly sounds like silly
[10:12:57] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=2956 <- cause i had a Costume made of Glass fibre reinforced Epoxy made in this form ;-)
[10:13:22] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=2954
[10:13:40] <A0Sheds> http://chicago.craigslist.org/nch/tls/2985186845.html Charmilles robocut 220 - $2000 looks like a control cabinet from the 70's
[10:13:57] <Loetmichel> and silly i am... like almost everyone
[10:14:03] <Loetmichel> more like crazy ;-.)
[10:14:45] <A0Sheds> <4000 hrs?
[10:15:18] * Loetmichel is making progress with the CNC for a Co-worker... mounting the Stepper drivers and building the PSUs for stepper and Spindle... -> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=13149
[10:16:57] <pfred1> my CNC project is on hold I have too much otehr stuff to do now
[10:20:26] <JT-Shop> archivist: yes, they proof it with a double charge
[10:20:52] <JT-Shop> three times
[10:21:54] <JT-Shop> archivist: I have a book that shows the tools used to inspect the cannon bore for defects
[10:21:57] <archivist> JT-Shop, I remember Birmingham Proof House mentioning the double sized charge, but not the number of firings
[10:22:31] <JT-Shop> these have a steel liner cast into the barrel
[10:22:41] <archivist> we were at the proof house doing up the clock so got free looks at some stuff
[10:22:51] <JT-Shop> cool
[10:23:05] <JT-Shop> how's the shed coming along
[10:23:52] <archivist> that is a long term project!....just clearing space yesterday for the wood for the sides
[10:24:06] <pfred1> not that anyone asked but my grinder is coming along
http://i.imgur.com/nj6Lj.jpg
[10:24:18] <archivist> raining today so getting real work done
[10:25:01] <pfred1> I think it is improved from when I got it
http://i.imgur.com/ieMSq.jpg
[10:25:03] <archivist> bit heavy on the wire brush there
[10:25:15] <JT-Shop> I'm just making some bits for the cannon today... this afternoon we have 3 full scale Coehorn Mortars we are firing
[10:26:46] <JT-Shop> now i will have to paint my grinder I made back in '68
[10:26:48] <JT-Shop> http://gnipsel.com/shop/bench-grinder.xhtml
[10:27:04] <JT-Shop> it still works
[10:27:26] <Loetmichel> ouch.
[10:27:46] <Loetmichel> and i thougth i would improvise to much.
[10:27:57] <JT-Shop> lol
[10:28:00] <pfred1> JT-Shop its a runner
[10:28:14] <JT-Shop> pfred1: I like the paper under the grinder harbor freight
[10:28:32] <pfred1> JT-Shop handy stuff
[10:28:35] <A0Sheds> http://tinyurl.com/bm9opqh anyone have any experience with these models? EDM ELOX COLT INDUSTRIES
[10:29:01] <pfred1> here is another before and after
http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/7985/sparkyold.jpg http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/8273/sparkydonep.jpg
[10:29:45] <JT-Shop> nice
[10:29:59] <pfred1> A0Sheds it looks heavy
[10:30:04] * JT-Shop looks for some material to make the square keys
[10:30:47] <A0Sheds> pfred1, they might be worth more as scrap
[10:30:59] <pfred1> A0Sheds I was just thinking you can't go wrong
[10:31:18] <archivist> two toys for the price
[10:31:25] <pfred1> though i think scrap has fallen off its highs
[10:31:28] <A0Sheds> wish one was a sinker
[10:31:43] <pfred1> isn't that what this is?
[10:32:10] <archivist> er edm is sinking /me thought
[10:32:15] <pfred1> me too
[10:32:36] <pfred1> we had one to drill in carbide
[10:32:47] <pfred1> about the only way i know to drill in carbide
[10:33:04] <A0Sheds> they typically break them into two categories wire vs sinker
[10:33:54] <pfred1> our might have used a carbon lance
[10:33:59] <A0Sheds> and sometimes the line is fuzzy betwen the two
[10:34:04] <archivist> does google mention wire for either
[10:35:19] <pfred1> thing must have $900 worth of AB switches on it
[10:35:22] <A0Sheds> they are only 15 minutes from me, maybe I'll try to see them tomorrow
[10:36:04] <A0Sheds> http://chicago.craigslist.org/nch/tls/2985186845.html guessing 80 amps
[10:36:24] <pfred1> A0Sheds you're in the heart of the rust belt are you?
[10:36:34] <JT-Shop> only takes 9 AB 800's to equal $900
[10:36:44] <A0Sheds> on the western edge
[10:36:47] <pfred1> JT-Shop yup
[10:37:00] <A0Sheds> OHIO really tends to have the surplus in CNC and older machines
[10:37:03] <pfred1> it is crazy they sell them to you in pieces
[10:37:48] <pfred1> A0Sheds I saw a youtube video of this guy who has dozens of machines in his basement
[10:37:58] <pfred1> you know he got them all for a song
[10:38:27] <A0Sheds> Danimal comes to mind with his garage bike factory
[10:39:25] <A0Sheds> I just bought a big stainless parts washer from a guy that had a shop in his garage as well, EDM, MIlls, inspection
[10:39:32] <pfred1> they video I saw it looked like the guy was running a museum the stuff was packed together too close to even use
[10:40:06] <A0Sheds> I still have a few thousand sq ft of space I can fill
[10:40:07] <archivist> sounds like the basement where I used to work
[10:40:24] <pfred1> this guy claimed to be a telescope hobbiest
[10:40:43] <pfred1> but his other hobby was obviously restoring all the machinery he had
[10:40:45] <A0Sheds> the problem I'm running into are the quotes we've been getting to make 1-2 parts
[10:41:16] <A0Sheds> cheaper for me to just buy used machines and make them in house
[10:41:32] <pfred1> not all used machines are usable
[10:41:39] <A0Sheds> or 6-8 weeks for simple dies
[10:42:03] <pfred1> in production they can have uneven bed wear
[10:42:17] <A0Sheds> yeah, you have to shop around and try to screen machines over the phone
[10:42:23] <archivist> calibrate the wear out
[10:42:34] <pfred1> best is stuff out of schools that wasn't used for production
[10:42:35] <A0Sheds> I picked up a $3k grinder for $300 the other day
[10:42:54] <A0Sheds> he had several other CNC machines he bought at auctions with flaky controllers
[10:43:04] <pfred1> schools are closing or have closed their shop classes today
[10:43:45] <archivist> I think schools are going to realise that is a mistake
[10:44:00] <A0Sheds> archivist, sure in 10-20 years
[10:44:03] <pfred1> archivist look deep into their eyes you won't see any concern
[10:44:16] <pfred1> as long as they get their tenure they don't care
[10:44:25] <A0Sheds> after a revolution of some sort
[10:44:27] <archivist> oil goes up, cost too much to transport, make near use
[10:44:46] <archivist> already starting to happen
[10:45:24] <archivist> and newspapers whining about lake of engineers
[10:45:39] <pfred1> archivist I think what will happen is goods will be made more custom as in CNC less mass production
[10:45:56] <A0Sheds> I sat in conferences back in the 80's about the lack of engineers
[10:46:48] <pfred1> I don't know how quickly it will happen but I can see reasons why it would
[10:46:51] <A0Sheds> the bean counters only see engineers and scientists as a resource with little value
[10:47:24] <pfred1> mass consumerism is unsustainable
[10:47:33] <archivist> they dont just count the beans...they keep the beans for themselves
[10:47:38] <A0Sheds> they just tell people what crap to buy and they buy it, $850 for icrap that cost ~$100
[10:47:54] <pfred1> archivist thing is there are more hands out today for the same number of beans
[10:48:04] <A0Sheds> it's beyond crazy to me now
[10:48:31] <pfred1> A0Sheds I'd like to see you make an iCrap for $100
[10:48:46] <A0Sheds> or they throw 1000 engineers with a few years experience at a product in China, where a few experienced guys could do it
[10:48:53] <A0Sheds> pfred1, we are
[10:49:06] <A0Sheds> the BOM is actually pretty low
[10:52:26] <A0Sheds> http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/tls/2956114591.html tempted, but it takes odd collets
[10:52:48] <A0Sheds> anyone ever use a Gorton Mill?
[10:53:08] <pfred1> looks like a bport clone
[10:53:21] <A0Sheds> but it doesn't use R8
[10:54:44] <pfred1> as a general rule if an 80 year old man can't lug it down his rickety basement steps the price on used machinery drops
[10:55:07] <A0Sheds> or if it's too big for a garage
[10:55:17] <JT-Shop> what kind of spindle is that? R8?
[10:55:34] <A0Sheds> took me a month to sell my bridgeport clone
[10:55:52] <A0Sheds> JT-Shop, I called the guy, he said it was not R8
[10:56:00] <andypugh> Looks more like R8 than anything sensible (not a fan of R8)
[10:56:03] <A0Sheds> hes closing his machine shop
[10:56:43] <pfred1> andypugh R8 is very easy to get tooling or and it does work
[10:56:49] <pfred1> tooling for even
[10:57:04] <andypugh> An awful lot of cranking tables up and down for tool changes though.
[10:57:24] <andypugh> It's just a lot longer than it needs to be.
[10:57:29] <A0Sheds> looks like somebody is China making new collets for them
[10:58:37] <A0Sheds> looking for Mazak's and similar now
[10:59:07] <A0Sheds> all winter they were all about, now that I'm looking I can't find much
[11:00:13] <andypugh> Ah, the interweb indicates that the Gorton taper is indeed strange and unusual.
[11:00:32] <A0Sheds> http://chicago.craigslist.org/nwc/tls/2984871570.html Machine Bridgeport - $1500
[11:01:21] <A0Sheds> whats a good source for retrofit balls screws ?
[11:01:51] <A0Sheds> the kits I've been finding are >1K for the X and X screw with new T
[11:02:10] <A0Sheds> X and Y, heh
[11:02:21] <pfred1> hand cranks wouldn't use ballscrews
[11:02:22] <andypugh> A0Sheds: Not much help, but the prices at www.zappautomation.co.uk are almost certainly cheaper
[11:02:26] <Tom_itx> poll: what is the 'best' collet system for a small mill in your opinion?
[11:02:48] <andypugh> Probably BT / CAT 30
[11:03:00] <A0Sheds> ^^
[11:03:05] <pfred1> R8 because i can find tooling for it
[11:03:17] <Tom_itx> what about er?
[11:03:18] <pfred1> not only can but do
[11:04:01] <andypugh> Ah, collet? I answered the question "what is the best taper for a small mill"
[11:04:14] <pfred1> you can get R8 collets
[11:04:15] <andypugh> ER is by far the best collet system
[11:04:25] <Tom_itx> ok i hear that alot here
[11:04:38] <andypugh> But that is how you hold the cutter in the shank, not how you hold the shank in the spindle.
[11:04:48] <Tom_itx> is it a 30 deg taper?
[11:04:55] <Tom_itx> ie cat 30
[11:04:55] <A0Sheds> http://chicago.craigslist.org/nwc/tls/2984899602.html Jet Milling Machine - $1500
[11:05:03] <andypugh> It's 15 degrees I think (but that is 30 included)
[11:05:07] <Tom_itx> yeah
[11:05:09] <A0Sheds> I bet these are all from the same seller
[11:05:38] <pfred1> isn't Jet far eastern import?
[11:05:39] <andypugh> I have a few BT30 shanks with ER32 collets (and an ER16)
[11:05:53] <Tom_itx> the jet we had was good
[11:05:56] <Tom_itx> bp clone
[11:06:27] <andypugh> You probably don't want an ER32 spindle nose, as it makes tool length change every time you change cutter.
[11:06:54] <andypugh> (though you can probably fit an end-stop in the chuck)
[11:07:39] <A0Sheds> http://www.amazon.com/JTM-1050EVS-3-axis-ACU-RITE-Powerfeed-Installed/dp/B001D6Y1NW look like it's the older version of these
[11:07:42] <andypugh> Also, it depends on the size of the mill. In many cases you need a collet direct in the spindle just to have space over the table for the work.
[11:08:34] <andypugh> A0Sheds: I love the fact that mill has a gift wrap option
[11:08:46] <A0Sheds> Tom_itx, did you have any issues with them?
[11:09:23] <pfred1> andypugh beats getting an ugly hat
[11:10:02] <A0Sheds> andypugh, I wonder if they off the "Have it by tomorrow if you order in the next 20 min with super saver shipping" ($40,000)
[11:11:15] <Tom_itx> A0Sheds, no not really
[11:11:28] <Tom_itx> it was a 'support' machine though
[11:12:09] <A0Sheds> yeah, I have Bridgeports now, this would be a spare
[11:12:17] <Tom_itx> andypugh we used 50 taper alot
[11:12:49] <Tom_itx> 40 and 50
[11:13:01] <andypugh> 50 taper has so much metal in it that home users can't afford it though :-)
[11:13:11] <Tom_itx> i know
[11:13:48] <Tom_itx> 3" insert cutter drills etc
[11:13:56] <Tom_itx> in ti
[11:17:41] <JT-Shop> Tom_itx: my BP has a quik switch spindle that works well and the VMC has a BT30 which is nice too
[11:19:17] <andypugh> I have BT30 with a pneumatic drawbar :-)(
[11:19:48] <andypugh> I can change tools in a second. Unfortunately that is about as far s that conversion has got.
[11:20:11] <andypugh> I got distracted by custrom bldc motors, and software drivers.
[11:20:17] <Tom_itx> i was just curious what ppl were using
[11:20:53] <andypugh> Tom_itx:
http://youtu.be/pxrzJ_KfcQ0
[11:22:11] <A0Sheds> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Voumard-I-D-Grinder-FOR-Parts-Repair-only-/110826577964?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19cdc7602c
[11:22:21] <A0Sheds> 30K rpm
[11:22:49] <JT-Shop> yea the VMC has the pneumatic drawbar and it takes only minutes to change a tool from the carousel
[11:23:10] <Tom_itx> nice andy
[11:23:20] <andypugh> JT-Shop: Minutes!?
[11:23:48] <JT-Shop> well it is slow so maybe 30 seconds
[11:24:20] <andypugh> That seems incredibly slow compared to machines I have seen on t'internet
[11:24:36] <A0Sheds> andypugh, the Voumard ^^ ?
[11:24:49] <andypugh> No, JT's toolchange
[11:25:51] <JT-Shop> I need to video that thing changing tools
[11:26:06] <A0Sheds> the Voumard just needs a new control, it runs but it acts up, so no big deal, just not sure if it's worth the floor space
[11:26:44] <A0Sheds> or add an axis or two and make it a high speed lathe
[11:28:20] <andypugh> I would guess that the workpiece spindle turns at a conventional rate, but maybe without much power.
[11:29:23] <A0Sheds> I could get this for $3k delivered
[11:30:27] <andypugh> Do you want it more than you want the $3k?
[11:31:26] <A0Sheds> I like the table and spindle
[11:31:53] <A0Sheds> but, I can probably find a fanuc. mazak etc for less
[11:47:10] <Tom_itx> http://www.dairiki.org/hammond/cable-lacing-howto/
[11:47:12] <Tom_itx> :)
[11:47:26] <syyl_ws_> uargs
[11:47:35] <syyl_ws_> had to learn that long time ago :D
[11:47:57] <pfred1> or you could use trough
[11:48:51] <pfred1> I guess they didn't have trough in 1962
[11:57:39] <pfred1> they were a superstitious lot back then though weren't they? "Twelve turns are wound tightly over this loop and, at the last turn, the cord end is pushed through the loop which extends from under the wrap"
[11:58:44] * Loetmichel hat just to "re-thinken" his sacrificial plate on the mill... $me waits for the resin to harden... -> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=13152
[11:59:59] <andypugh> I still use cable lacing.
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/CjyY96Q9SYwld6GhchJzqNMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink
[12:00:36] <pfred1> andypugh I have 2 words for you, zip ties
[12:01:11] <andypugh> Eh? Use cable ties to tie cables? Are you mad?
[12:01:22] <Loetmichel> harhar
[12:01:27] <pfred1> mad is using spiral wrap
[12:01:47] <pfred1> does look pretty when you're done but you always forget a wire
[12:01:57] <archivist> rats nests rule
[12:02:11] <andypugh> You can normally squeeze one more in.
[12:02:39] <pfred1> andypugh true but i meant the wire you forgot after the wire you squeezed in
[12:02:55] <andypugh> It's particularly good for maximising cross-talk.
[12:02:55] <pfred1> the one that makes you upwrap it
[12:03:03] * Loetmichel still uses waxed cotton thread sometimes
[12:03:28] <Loetmichel> if you have learned that it looks Very nice and is best for the Cable siolation
[12:03:35] <Loetmichel> (no cutting edges)
[12:04:16] <andypugh> This is my lathe (stepper) box.
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/NivmHU8OuXIcP2EQHUPruNMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink
[12:04:29] <pfred1> trough, wire loom, zip ties, spiral wrap
[12:05:32] <andypugh> I like to know that my machine looks pretty inside. I accept that it does nothing for function
[12:05:33] <pfred1> andypugh couldn't find any nice rainbow ribbon cable the gray PVC is so depressing!
[12:06:12] <pfred1> you could do for a slash of color in that corner i think
[12:29:57] <stevegt_> Loetmichel: silly question -- since you're pouring the resin in-place on the mill table, I take it you have confidence in how level the mill table itself is relative to gravity? How precise is that?
[12:30:32] <pfred1> all machines need to be leveled to work best
[12:32:34] <stevegt_> pfred1: since mine's on a cart, I haven't bothered at all yet -- if I were to do Loetmichel's resin thing, I might rethink that
[12:33:10] <pfred1> what kind of a mill do you have?
[12:33:16] <stevegt_> just a little sherline
[12:34:16] <pfred1> big mills the rule is touching a solid base like a thick concrete slab
[12:35:10] <pfred1> either that or you get too much resonance and chatter
[12:35:18] <stevegt_> yeah. my sherline is bolted to a big concrete block, sitting on the cart. ;-)
[12:35:53] <pfred1> you can imagine if you scaled up the difficulties that would ensue I hope
[12:35:58] <stevegt_> yep
[12:36:34] <pfred1> though I've seen the biggest vehicle in the world and I imagine it could support a serious machine shop
[12:37:02] <pfred1> each tread link on it is 2 tons
[12:37:24] <pfred1> the crawler down at the cape for the saturn 5
[12:37:28] <andypugh> That's the shuttle-shifter?
[12:37:41] <pfred1> well that is what they repurposed it for
[12:37:48] <pfred1> it was still launching sat 5s when I saw it
[12:37:50] <stevegt_> IIRC some mining draglines do have shops on board
[12:38:12] <pfred1> that thing is nuts
[12:38:27] <andypugh> pfred1: Biggest _land_ vehicle, I guess.
[12:38:42] <pfred1> well yeah I'm sure some floaty stuff is bigger
[12:38:42] <Loetmichel> stevegt_: as i have just milled it flat: about 0.2mm on the 200mm x axis out of level. thats good enough for me ;-)
[12:39:05] <pfred1> they put machine shops in ships too
[12:39:29] <pfred1> they seems to favor multi function machines in ships
[12:39:35] <stevegt_> pfred1: I got to walk around under the crawler a long time ago -- loved the mufflers the size of trucks
[12:39:59] <pfred1> stevegt_ I got a ride on the moon buggy after a parade
[12:40:07] <pfred1> the earth moon buggy not a real one
[12:40:21] <pfred1> real ones wouldn't run on the earth
[12:40:25] <Loetmichel> the ship i have done my service on hat a machine shop onboard
[12:40:53] <stevegt_> Loetmichel: ohhhh. yes, it was a silly question. and that will help with surface tension effects as well. thanks.
[12:40:57] <Loetmichel> with a small combined mill/lathe, some welding tools and a drill press
[12:41:15] <Loetmichel> all on less than 1,5m*2,5m room ;-)
[12:41:41] <pfred1> I love the scene in the african queen when boogie fixes the propeller
[12:42:15] <Loetmichel> hrhr
[12:42:22] <andypugh> USS Hornet had quite a nice machine shop, I wanted a closer look.
[12:42:47] <pfred1> andypugh I hear the army has battlefield parts printers for making tank parts
[12:42:48] <Loetmichel> our 2 propellers were with pitch hydraulics.. and 2,3m diameter ;-)
[12:43:14] <pfred1> andypugh pretty much if it is crazy the US military is into it
[12:43:16] <Loetmichel> nothing the onboard shop could cope with
[12:43:34] <Loetmichel> but making spare handles and rails and stuff was possible
[12:43:51] <andypugh> There is a panorama of the Hornet machine shop here:
http://www.uss-hornet.org/exhibits/photos/
[12:44:07] <pfred1> is that the one docked in NYC?
[12:44:17] <Loetmichel> we even made a new gear for the valve control chain ofg the main engines once
[12:44:18] <pfred1> oh guess what i just saw?
[12:44:40] <pfred1> one of the guns out of the missouri came through town
[12:44:51] <pfred1> it looks like a piece of plumbing
[12:44:56] <andypugh> pfred1: No, it's moored on ALmeda
[12:45:51] <pfred1> hard to imagine it could lob a shell that weighed what a VW bug does 26 miles
[12:45:55] <andypugh> Nice big lathe (and some smaller ones you can't see). I assume it is some US make, though it is a bit Colchester-ish
[12:47:34] <pfred1> one of my air compressors I think came off a US warship
[12:47:35] <Loetmichel> pfred1: i have done my service on a 70m 700ton Sub-Hunter
[12:48:04] <pfred1> Loetmichel what do you think you'd have done with a sub if you ever found one?
[12:48:07] <Loetmichel> there was so less room, it was like on a sub, only that every sailor had his own bed
[12:48:22] <Loetmichel> pfred1: we found a couple
[12:48:33] <Loetmichel> and "destroyed" some americans ;-)
[12:48:46] <pfred1> one US nuke sub has more explosive potential on it than was used in every war in the 20th century
[12:48:47] <Loetmichel> (combined nato maneuver)
[12:49:31] <pfred1> I went where we make them once
[12:49:59] <pfred1> we keep making them because if we ever stop we'll never be able to start up again
[12:50:23] <pfred1> but it sure ain't like we need anymore
[12:50:49] <Loetmichel> we had 4 torpedo tubes, 2 waterbomb-runways and a 4 tube rocket launcher on the bow
[12:50:51] <pfred1> kinda crazy if you ask me
[12:51:02] <Loetmichel> and a 40mm twin FLAK
[12:51:47] <Loetmichel> (which could throw more than 5 grenades without a loading jam ;-)
[12:53:05] <Loetmichel> pfred1: you mean like the nasa, which cant nuild a saturnV anymore because so much contruction plans are lost?
[12:53:20] <Loetmichel> s/could/couldn't
[12:53:27] <pfred1> I think we're out of the space bisuness here
[12:53:36] <pfred1> been there done that
[12:54:38] <Loetmichel> pity
[12:55:13] <pfred1> the only reason we ever got started was so the soviets couldn't say they were ahead of us
[12:55:32] <pfred1> wasn't any better reason really
[12:56:14] <pfred1> the whole premise of the ISS was to make the USSR look bad too
[12:56:35] <pfred1> that was its only mission
[12:56:58] <pfred1> it worked too they always missed their deadlines
[12:59:02] <pfred1> the europeans and the chinese can have space
[13:35:23] <Jymmm> ve7it: Man, that's kinda purrrrty...
http://www.radioworks.com/Hamshack/shack2007.jpg
[13:36:19] <Jymmm> ve7it: Though, I kinda like this a bit better, none of that "Oh, my neck is killing me!"
http://www.radioworks.com/Hamshack/colsoleright2.jpg
[13:37:02] <andypugh> Strange folks. What's wrong with email?
[13:38:14] <Jymmm> heh
[13:39:27] <Jymmm> andypugh: I think the better question would be what's RIGHT about email?
[13:40:19] <Jymmm> andypugh: I hit the flea market yesterday, picked up a (used) CamelBak for $1 USD in great condition =)
[13:41:01] <jdhNC> with a used bladder? yuck.
[13:41:03] <andypugh> Hmmm, well chewed mouthpiece? Call me squeamish but...
[13:42:06] <Jymmm> andypugh: No chew marks but I found out that they have a "Got Your Bak" lifetime guarntee. If you just need one or two parts, they'll just send them to you.
[13:42:39] <andypugh> Ah, OK.
[13:42:57] <alex4nder> haha
[13:42:59] <andypugh> Transferrable guarantee?
[13:43:02] <alex4nder> bathe it in bleach
[13:43:23] <Jymmm> andypugh: They don't say to register, and there's no serial numbers, so I'm going to say yes.
[13:43:57] <Jymmm> alex4nder: Yeah, I will. BUT... bleach doens't kill everything like boiling water would.
[13:44:12] <andypugh> I am unsure of the morality of paying $1 then claiming a free $5 part.
[13:44:38] <alex4nder> Jymmm: you need to use the CDC/EPA recommendation for killing anthrax spores
[13:44:48] <Jymmm> alex4nder: Which is?
[13:45:14] <alex4nder> Jymmm: 1 gallon water, 1 cup bleach, 1 cup vinegar
[13:45:30] <Jymmm> alex4nder: what does the vinegar do?
[13:45:53] <alex4nder> Jymmm: (apparently) dropping the pH causes the chlorine in the bleach to "work better"
[13:46:06] <Jymmm> alex4nder: Ah
[13:46:35] <Jymmm> alex4nder: If only boiling water works on crypto, wouldn't that work on anthrax too?
[13:47:25] <jdhNC> I have some disinfectant I use for my RB loop that will kill pretty much everything (except crypto and the like)
[13:47:30] <alex4nder> anthrax spores are pretty hardy
[13:47:48] <jdhNC> Virkon-S. even sounds like it kills stuff.
[13:48:07] <alex4nder> Jymmm: I'm off on my ratios, apparently it's 2 cups of each per gallon
[13:48:13] <alex4nder> but anyway, that's how I clean my bathroom. ;)
[13:48:30] <Jymmm> Just found this...
http://www.epa.gov/opp00001/factsheets/chemicals/bleachfactsheet.htm
[13:51:50] <Jymmm> alex4nder: Ok, spores CAN survive boiling.
[13:53:03] <Jymmm> alex4nder: Oh, I know... I'll just carry a portable xray machine from the 1960's that should kill EVERYTHING!!!
[13:53:08] <andypugh> alex4nder: I don't bother cleaning my bathroom, what am I going to catch that I don't already have?
[13:53:36] <Jymmm> andypugh: alligator?
[13:54:47] <jdhNC> how about some Co60?
[13:55:46] <Jymmm> jdhNC: Eeeesh, now need to carry something for th lead poisoning the Co60 is in
[13:56:11] <alex4nder> andypugh: you say that until you bring home athlete's foot from the gym or a hotel.
[13:56:14] <alex4nder> and then life sucks
[13:56:55] <Jymmm> alex4nder: Just pee on your feet (seriously)
[13:56:56] <andypugh> gym? hotel? Are you mad?
[13:57:31] <jdhNC> we make Co60 as a sideline. Luckily they harvest it elsewhere.
[13:57:38] <Jymmm> andypugh: Fine, common shower on boat
[13:58:12] <Jymmm> jdhNC: how controlled is it?
[13:58:14] <alex4nder> Jymmm: peeing on feet works until you get a case
[13:58:27] <alex4nder> and you haven't been continuously pissing on your feet
[13:58:46] <jdhNC> Jymm: extremely... as is everything else.
[13:59:03] <andypugh> Jymmm: No showering on the boat I was on. There wasn't enough fresh water to wash at all. It is surprisingly easy to get used to.
[13:59:11] <ReadError> alex4nder: made my 1st cut last night :)
[13:59:17] <alex4nder> ReadError: congratulations
[13:59:21] <alex4nder> that's rad
[13:59:23] <Jymmm> alex4nder: I've heard of ppl having atheletes foot, then cleared up after peeing on feet for three days
[13:59:31] <jdhNC> after a while (8 hours or so), everyone on a boat smells the same.
[13:59:34] <ReadError> http://p.twimg.com/Arnf0VnCAAA7iqs.jpg:large
[13:59:46] <Jymmm> jdhNC: Ok, just send me a small sample =)
[13:59:47] <ReadError> that will be forever engrained as the 1st thing i milled
[13:59:52] <ReadError> its pretty appropriate ;)
[13:59:58] <andypugh> Jymmm: Cleared up, or they couldn't bear to check any more?
[14:00:06] <alex4nder> ReadError: nice
[14:00:17] <Jymmm> andypugh: It was gone.
[14:00:18] <ReadError> worked like a charm
[14:00:29] <ReadError> i need to figure out how to get pycam to fill in the areas that are dark
[14:00:32] <jdhNC> ReadErro: self-portraits are good. Try edge lighting it with a couple of yellow LED's
[14:00:45] <ReadError> yea that will really accent the teeth
[14:00:55] <ReadError> i want to put some smd LED under it
[14:00:59] <ReadError> maybe a tiny solar panel
[14:01:08] <ReadError> so i can let it charge at my office
[14:01:13] <ReadError> ill have a whole collection
[14:01:18] <jdhNC> heh... what do you do?
[14:01:51] <ReadError> systems admin
[14:05:55] <Jymmm> The world's safest drivers...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAZCmaDm-2o&feature=player_embedded#!
[14:08:32] <Jymmm> alex4nder: Anthrax requires an HOUR contact, at that rate might as well just gas the place I'd think
[14:08:54] <alex4nder> Jymmm: well I don't think I have an anthrax problem
[14:09:10] <alex4nder> if I did, I probably would be in CDC quarantine
[14:10:34] <Jymmm> alex4nder: Same here, but it's still interesting to know that there's no single "cure all" as many might think. For the longest time I thought bleach killed everything, as that was what I was taught that disinfected the cpr dummy.
[14:11:10] <alex4nder> ah
[14:11:19] <Jymmm> but that was at 100% bleach, not in water.
[14:11:54] <Jymmm> full concentration of 5% bleach that is, common household stuff
[14:12:36] <Jymmm> err 6% if you go by Clorox MSDS
[14:14:04] <Jymmm> alex4nder: I guess I wasn't too far off... vaporize hydrogen peroxide
http://www.epa.gov/opp00001/factsheets/chemicals/vhp_factsheet.htm
[14:17:10] <alex4nder> hmm
[14:17:16] <alex4nder> wtf is RTAI's math modules using headers from libc
[14:17:58] <Jymmm> What you want them from .net ?
[14:18:04] <Jymmm> ;)
[14:19:02] <alex4nder> of course math.h includes features.h .. which includes bits/predefs.h.. which isn't in the include path
[14:19:10] <alex4nder> sick
[14:19:39] <andypugh> So, how does it all work then?
[14:19:45] <Jymmm> alex4nder: why are you building your own ?
[14:20:04] <andypugh> Because I am compiling realtime modules including rtapi_math.h at this very moment
[14:20:27] <alex4nder> andypugh: that's really awesome
[14:21:00] <Jymmm> andypugh: But you're a dev, I dont think alex4nder is.
[14:21:10] <alex4nder> Jymmm: I'm a professional kernel developer. ;)
[14:21:26] <alex4nder> so if I'm not, my employer is an idiot.
[14:21:27] <andypugh> If he is worried about rtapi_math.h then I think he has become a dev
[14:21:31] <Jymmm> alex4nder: kernel dev, sadist, same diff.
[14:21:34] <alex4nder> not rtapi_math.h
[14:21:56] <alex4nder> the straight "math.h" that the RTAI modules look for, which in this build environment is coming from /usr/include
[14:22:03] <alex4nder> which seems wrong
[14:22:07] <alex4nder> and doesn't work
[14:22:13] <Jymmm> alex4nder: diff em
[14:22:21] <alex4nder> diff what?
[14:22:38] <Jymmm> math.h and rtai.math.h
[14:22:40] <andypugh> Ah. Which RTAI modules in particular?
[14:22:56] <alex4nder> rtai/base/math
[14:23:48] <andypugh> S, you are compiling RTAI from source?
[14:23:57] <alex4nder> yup
[14:24:37] <alex4nder> the problem is pretty straight forward, RTAI is using a horrible hack to build /usr/include with a kernel module
[14:25:04] <alex4nder> s/build/include/
[14:26:11] <alex4nder> andypugh: in your build environment, at the top of /usr/include/math.h do you have an #include of features.h?
[14:26:34] <alex4nder> or are you not building RTAI from source?
[14:26:59] <andypugh> I do have that, but I am not building RTAI from source on this machine
[14:27:03] <alex4nder> ok
[14:27:25] <andypugh> I am using a conventional liveCD install, in fact.
[14:27:47] <alex4nder> yah, I'm totally off the reservation
[14:28:31] <andypugh> I _have_ built a custom kernel including the RTAI patches, but it was painful and I don't have the need now that the LiveCD kernel is SMP
[14:29:41] <Jymmm> It's McDonald's "Hot Coffee" all over again...
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504763_162-57423319-10391704/nutella-health-claims-net-$3.05-million-settlement-in-class-action-lawsuit/?part=webmd-cbsnews
[14:30:50] <Jymmm> Though, I do remember the original commercials saying "part of a health breakfast"
[14:30:57] <Jymmm> healthy
[14:31:04] <alex4nder> andypugh: building RTAI on Debian is close to trivial.. except for the thing I just ran into
[14:31:14] <alex4nder> we'll see how well it works once everything is running though.
[14:31:28] <Jymmm> alex4nder: fix it and submit a patch maybe?
[14:31:55] <alex4nder> Jymmm: maybe, but there's some deep seated brain damage inside RTAI
[14:32:38] <Jymmm> alex4nder: Heh, I'm not surprised. They contact emc ppl and asked (demanded ?) a donation once iirc.
[14:32:56] <alex4nder> haha
[14:33:44] <Jymmm> andypugh: how much you know about cordage?
[14:34:09] <andypugh> Hmm, the advert seems to suggest that Nutella is a great way to persuade kids to eat healthy stuff by smearing it in sugary chocolatey goodness.
[14:34:26] <alex4nder> I ate so much nutella as a child, it was disgusting.
[14:34:33] <Jymmm> and "just a touch" of cocoa
[14:34:38] <andypugh> Jymmm: Very little.
[14:34:44] <Jymmm> andypugh: ok, thanks.
[14:35:52] <Jymmm> andypugh: being a sailor, I thought you might of had a clue in that area. guess I'll have to find a bosensmate =)
[14:36:00] <Jymmm> (sp)
[14:36:34] <andypugh> Well, I know a few things, but wouldn't want to be asked to be authoratative
[14:38:04] <Jymmm> andypugh: This is about single/double braid, and nylon/dacron/kevlar sorta thing
[14:39:43] <andypugh> It comes down to if you want soft and easy to handle, or low-elasticity.
[14:39:55] <andypugh> Then how strong it needs to be.
[14:40:59] <andypugh> A lot of the time you can use a thicker weaker rope, just to have something to hold on to. My mate's little boat has a 7mm Dyneema main halyard. It is more than strong enough, but two thin to comfortably heave on.
[14:41:24] <andypugh> (too thin, that is)
[14:41:37] <Jymmm> andypugh: I have a doubel braid line now with a static rating of 700lbs, but I just found a single braid with the same rating, yet a tad thinner.
[14:43:20] <Jymmm> then another with a kevlar core with same rating, even thinner. It's just a bit difficult to compare
[14:43:25] <andypugh> I think you mainly use double-braid so that the core is protected.
[14:43:44] <andypugh> (both from abrasion, and sunlight)
[14:44:35] <Jymmm> the double braid I have, the core is braid, and the sheath is too. But does that add to strength with the core braided as well?
[14:45:09] <Jymmm> Id think it would increase the stretch a bit
[14:46:41] <andypugh> braided core is handy for making stops and spliced loops. But many ropes have a braided sheath and a haswer-laid core.
[14:46:55] <andypugh> Is that what you mean by single braid?
[14:47:27] <Jymmm> andypugh: This is what i have now... 3/16"
http://www.synthetictextilesinc.com/supportham.html
[14:49:26] <Jymmm> andypugh: then I cam across this..
http://www.radioworks.com/crope.html
[14:50:40] <Jymmm> andypugh: One says single-braid, the other says double-braid, yet both have the same ratings.
[14:51:01] <Jymmm> brb
[14:51:10] <andypugh> Yes, as they contain about the same amount of stuff :-)
[14:52:02] <alex4nder> my kingdom for preempt_rt being as good as RTAI
[15:13:18] <Jymmm> andypugh: Well, wasn't THAT a concise and helpful answer =)
[15:14:30] <andypugh> A rope of the same material and same diameter will have the same strength, but different construction will give more elasticity or flexibility.
[15:15:09] <Jymmm> andypugh: and a dbl braid gives _______________________?
[15:15:56] <andypugh> I think it is a bit less elastic than single. But check.
[15:16:04] <Jymmm> ah ok
[15:18:45] <Jymmm> andypugh: It's kinda funny, I have a 3/8" general purpose braided rope and it's max working load is 40lbs, yet the dacron is 400lbs =)
[15:23:58] <andypugh> I have 4mm dyneema shoelaces, rated at 2240lbs..
[15:24:23] <Jymmm> andypugh: working or static?
[15:24:37] <andypugh> breaking load.
[15:24:56] <andypugh> Ample for shoelaces and light towing / prussik loops anyway
[15:25:23] <Jymmm> andypugh: I' going to suspect that's static. I was stating workign load.
[15:51:00] <r00t4rd3d> parachute cord
[16:18:55] <Jymmm> r00t4rd3d: What about paracord?
[16:20:11] <Jymmm> which I have in multiple colors =)
[16:35:30] <MDesade> hello hello
[16:36:28] <MDesade> i would like your opinions please. i am shopping for NEMA-42 servos, and would like to know what is considered "the best" and most reliable Servo
[16:37:12] <andypugh> NEMA 42 is quite large. Out of interest, do they _have_ to be NEMA or would a non-US standard frame size work?
[16:37:47] <andypugh> Are you buying drives too?
[16:38:09] <MDesade> ill be buying gecko G320X drives
[16:38:58] <MDesade> i DO need a power supply though. ideally one that could power a 4th axis in the future for an addon, but for now, just 3 axis
[16:39:19] <andypugh> Hmm, so you are looking for brush-type servos?
[16:39:34] <jdhNC> bridgeport retrofit?
[16:39:35] <andypugh> And you want to control with step-direction?
[16:39:45] <MDesade> i bought a bridgeport series 1 boss 5 (missing the boss computer) that i am replacing the 3-phase powered steppers, with modern servos
[16:40:59] <andypugh> If you are looking at Gecko servo drives then I suspect you are not really looking for the "best" servos. So, what is your budget?
[16:41:19] <andypugh> (you could easily spend a few $1000 per axis if you wanted to)
[16:41:29] <jdhNC> step/dir seems lame for servos
[16:42:22] <andypugh> Yes, I was about to say that step-dir servo drives take a lot of the control loop out of your control. The preferred approach with EMC2 is PWM or anlaogue voltage control.
[16:42:43] <andypugh> The the PID loop runs inside the LinuxCNC software
[16:43:04] <MDesade> actually, i am ignorant to the difference between the 4-wire and 8-wire servos. WHAT is the difference between those configurations??
[16:43:35] <MDesade> ANDYPUGH - the gecko G320's do the PWM
[16:43:35] <jdhNC> are you sure you mean servo and not stepper?
[16:43:39] <andypugh> I have no idea what you mean. As far as I am aware servos have 2 or 3 wires.
[16:44:08] <DJ9DJ> gn8
[16:44:14] <andypugh> Yes, I know that the G320 does PWM _out_ I am referring to the position control signal
[16:44:36] <MDesade> OK, then lets back up even further. what is the difference between a stepper and servo (i am ignorant myself here)
[16:44:58] <archivist> g320 is legacy they are dropping it
[16:45:00] <jdhNC> price, performance, complexity, feedback
[16:45:02] <andypugh> Well, there are even several types of servo
[16:45:49] <andypugh> But, a stepper moves one small click every time you pulse the drive. A servo applies a constant torque proportional to how hard you command the drive.
[16:45:50] <MDesade> the end goal, is what i know...
[16:46:46] <andypugh> So, in a servo system as long as the axis is where you want it to be, nothing happens. As soon as there is a position error then the PID loop applies a torque to the motor to move the axis to the correct position.
[16:47:13] <andypugh> Fundamental to this is that the system needs to know where the axis is, typically using encoders on the motors.
[16:47:17] <MDesade> we are trying to revive this bridgeport back to its former glory as a CNC, with a modern computer. it has servos/steppers built in, but run off 3phase power that i don't have in my garage
[16:47:39] <MDesade> yes, encoders are coming from digikey
[16:47:50] <andypugh> Stepper systems are generally "Open loop" meaining that the control computer has no idea where the axis really is, just where it told it to go.
[16:48:08] <MDesade> the encoders are AMT-102-V parts
[16:48:36] <andypugh> You wouldn't normally have to buy encoders for a servo motor, they are generally included / built in
[16:48:55] <jdhNC> and you would really need to buy encoders to fit the motor
[16:49:01] <archivist> MDesade, when you say 3 phase if they are ac servos then just get drives
[16:49:19] <MDesade> well, i suspect they are shot.
[16:49:27] <andypugh> If it just 3-phase input into the PSU transformer then it might be even easier.
[16:50:00] <MDesade> i could wire them to my variac to find out, but it is my understanding they are no good
[16:50:05] <archivist> best to diagnose not suspect
[16:50:26] <andypugh> They probably take DC, possibly just rectified mains.
[16:50:40] <MDesade> they seller that i bought it from lied to me about multiple things, so i cant trust anything i was told
[16:50:45] <archivist> if he has any drives
[16:51:36] <MDesade> the bridgeport has an electrical panel (weighs about 500lbs) with a mains transformer, then 3 sub transformers for the drives.
[16:51:48] <andypugh> As a comparison, the mill I am converting will have 375V rated 3-phase brushless motors, powered from a simple rectified-mains PSU. The drives are Mesa 8i20 digital 3-phase drives, with the 3-phase commutation and PID control all handled inside the LinuxCNC software.
[16:52:23] <Jymmm> andypugh: Ah, desktop model =)
[16:52:43] <archivist> MDesade, if you have 3 phase brushless you can do the same as andy
[16:52:51] <MDesade> not to be wasteful, but i guess id rather sell these 3 motors on ebay, get some money, and then buy known, good motors, that are setup to interface to the geckos
[16:53:10] <MDesade> i only have 240volt single phase in my garage
[16:53:27] <MDesade> making the whole electrical panel worthless
[16:53:30] <jdhNC> isn't teh spindle 3-phase?
[16:53:41] <andypugh> The problems I see with that Gecko drive are a) 80V / 20A so you need a 4kW 80V DC PSU, which is likely to be expensive. If you can find one. b) It is step/dir so that LinuxCNC doesn't control the PID loop and c) it drives brushed motors, which are a bit old-hat nowadays.
[16:53:48] <archivist> dont fixate on the geckos, you can still run ac servos of single phase
[16:53:53] <MDesade> yes, so i had to buy a 2hp VFD to drive the spindle
[16:54:37] <MDesade> which, interfaces to the computer's smoothstepper
[16:54:39] * Jymmm thinks MDesade has to put away his credit card for a little bit.
[16:54:49] <andypugh> smoothstepper?
[16:54:51] <andypugh> Ah.
[16:54:53] <jdhNC> heh
[16:54:55] <archivist> we dont use smooth stepper
[16:55:25] <archivist> are you asking us to help you get mach3 running
[16:56:22] <MDesade> no, i am only asking about hardware
[16:56:25] <andypugh> Yes, if you have a Smoothstepper and Gecko G320 then that is really a Mach3 hardware-set, not a LinuxCNC one.
[16:56:30] <MDesade> i can run mach, or EMC
[16:56:57] <MDesade> it matters not to me. what matters is getting the machine running in two weeks, as i am on a time crunch for work
[16:56:58] <Jymmm> MDesade: Which one you planning on running primarily?
[16:57:18] <andypugh> We would need to write a HAL driver for the Ethernet sSmoothstepper. (not impossible)
[16:57:36] <MDesade> i have a drive loaded with one, and another loaded with the other
[16:57:40] <jdhNC> or easier, ditch teh smoothstepper
[16:57:47] <MDesade> whichever works best, ill run with
[16:57:49] <andypugh> (Or send it back, if possible)
[16:57:54] <archivist> MDesade, there is currently no driver for smoothstepper
[16:58:12] <andypugh> So, with your existing hardware Mach3 will run far better.
[16:58:52] <archivist> with the right hardware linuxcnc will be better than that
[16:59:03] <MDesade> i had a problem with the latest/greatest EMC video driver, but the older 8.04 works fine
[16:59:40] <jdhNC> for 2 week deadline and unsure about hardware, I'd go with bigass steppers and beefy drivers.
[17:00:02] <MDesade> anyway, i've looked at Keling's kit with 3x axis, and a power supply, and i am familiar with baldor as a solid motor name brand
[17:01:03] <andypugh> Parker, Lenze, Fanuc, Kollmorgen
[17:01:24] <MDesade> i have a set budget, but can spend more to not neglect features that would bite me in the ass later, if i don't plan ahead now
[17:01:26] <jdhNC> that just takes money.
[17:01:35] <jdhNC> but, they are much more plug-and-play
[17:01:56] <alex4nder> so
[17:01:58] <andypugh> I would suggest searching eBay for used industrial servo drives. Try to get matching motors and drives as pairs, and LinuxCNC will have a way to drive them.
[17:02:38] <MDesade> the computer is done. i even interfaced a joystick and MAME buttons for control panels. but, yes. matching Servos, with power suply was why i logged in looking for opinions
[17:02:46] <andypugh> But we don't favour step-dir servo drives, those are universally aimed at the hobby market for stepper upgrades.
[17:03:30] <alex4nder> with this new board, running RTAI and isolcpus=1 .. I'm seeing servo latencies holding at like 3 uS and base at ~3.5 uS.
[17:03:31] <MDesade> ok, basics here as i am new to this: stepper vs servo? what is the better choice for a large machine?
[17:03:47] <alex4nder> while running 3 copies of glxgears, building a kernel, and browsing with iceweasel.
[17:03:51] <archivist> servo
[17:04:03] <andypugh> How about this:
http://www.kelinginc.com/ACServoMotor.html
[17:04:07] <MDesade> ok, servo it is
[17:04:13] <andypugh> 750W servo + drive.
[17:04:24] <ReadError> wow alex4nder
[17:04:27] <ReadError> i have like 16k
[17:04:36] <ReadError> 3 is much better
[17:04:43] <ReadError> what board?
[17:04:45] <MDesade> ANDYPUGH ive been looking at those. they also sell a 3x axis kit. power supply and 3x NEMA42s for a grand plus
[17:05:02] <andypugh> The steppers on those old Bridgeports were really larger than it makes any sense for a stepper to be.
[17:05:14] <alex4nder> ReadError: DN2800MT
[17:05:28] <alex4nder> I'm surprised.. I didn't do anything special
[17:05:53] <ReadError> wow
[17:06:06] <ReadError> and what parallel port card?
[17:06:07] <MDesade> yeah, they are huge
[17:06:21] <alex4nder> ReadError: the built-in one
[17:06:21] <andypugh> Yes, but those are brush motors + geckos, so step-dir
[17:06:43] <ReadError> http://www.amazon.com/Intel-BOXDN2800MT-Desktop-Board-DN2800MT/dp/B006XFIK08
[17:06:58] <MDesade> ok: so Keling vs Baldor? what is your opinion?
[17:07:08] <ReadError> oh is it on a pinheader?
[17:07:11] <alex4nder> yup
[17:07:33] <andypugh> Keling don't make motors, they sell them
[17:07:34] <ReadError> ahhh nice
[17:07:41] <ReadError> how much you pay for the getup?
[17:07:47] <alex4nder> $100 or something
[17:07:50] <MDesade> keling are made in China???
[17:07:52] <alex4nder> plus the mSata and wireless I added.
[17:08:11] <andypugh> Well, the AC servo I pointed at is made in Taiwan
[17:08:22] <ReadError> nice
[17:08:33] <ReadError> usb wifi?
[17:08:37] <ReadError> or minipci
[17:08:52] <alex4nder> I added minipcie wifi
[17:08:58] <alex4nder> it's an intel 6230
[17:09:06] <MDesade> gotcha... see, that alone pushes me toward the Baldor's
[17:09:49] <alex4nder> hah, if I can hold these numbers, this board is sick
[17:10:32] <MDesade> well, since Baldor doesn't sell kits (including power supplies) whose power supply would you recommend?
[17:10:51] <Jymmm> whats that one jtjust got
[17:11:29] <andypugh> I built my own PSU, but I had no need for a transformer.
[17:12:00] <alex4nder> ReadError: this new setup should be the shit
[17:12:06] <MDesade> yeah, it's easy enough to build a simple high power linear supply
[17:12:07] <andypugh> Which Baldor motors/drives are you looking at?
[17:12:07] <alex4nder> I need to see how fast I can run my steppers.
[17:12:39] <MDesade> basically same specs as the Keling, just american made
[17:12:44] <andypugh> (And I would be rather surprised if Baldor actually make their motors in the country you live in)
[17:12:54] <andypugh> Which Keling?
[17:13:02] <MDesade> Nema-42
[17:13:25] <andypugh> I didn't see any Keling Nema42 _servo_ motors
[17:16:39] <MDesade> they are there. they have just changed their name recently so their site is AFU
[17:17:17] <andypugh> MDesade: Can I suggest that you put the credit card away for a couple of weeks and study the subject, decide what specification of motor you need in your application (torque/speed for example). Then you should have a better idea what you need.
[17:17:58] <MDesade> look, i am in a bit of a time crunch, but im not just out spending money for the sake of spending money
[17:18:42] <MDesade> this is an IRC chat channel, and i take whatever information given here with a grain of salt. monday morning when the toold shops open, then ill get better mfg info
[17:18:43] <archivist> getting this done in a couple of weeks is not really on
[17:19:21] <alex4nder> hah
[17:19:28] <alex4nder> MDesade: what better advice are you expecting?
[17:19:59] <archivist> all sellers will say theirs are the right one for you
[17:20:14] <MDesade> this isn't my first rodeo guys. IRC is notorious for disinformation and infighting and trolls.
[17:20:26] <alex4nder> haha
[17:20:32] <archivist> not in here
[17:20:34] <MDesade> of course, all sellers will say theirs is the best. i know that
[17:20:35] <cradek> yes I think I see one from here
[17:20:52] <alex4nder> anyone got any 'deal breaker' tests I can throw at this new board?
[17:21:23] <alex4nder> I'd like to see how badly I can beat it before the latencies go bad.
[17:21:26] <MDesade> my issue with the motors that are strapped to the bridgeport is there is NO LABEL on it
[17:21:29] <archivist> alex4nder, what sort of video card?
[17:21:42] <MDesade> no HP, no voltage, amps, nada
[17:21:57] <andypugh> I have never seen anyhting but good, honest, well-meaning advice here. Heck, we even suggested that your hardwaremight be a better fit for Mach3.
[17:22:00] <MDesade> makes it VERY hard to know WTF it is
[17:22:12] <archivist> MDesade, if you have the drives you can infer
[17:22:23] <alex4nder> archivist: I'm running a vesa X server right now.
[17:22:43] <alex4nder> it's got some powervr sgx that I haven't setup yet
[17:22:54] <MDesade> which, i appreciate. i intentionally left the software out of the equation to not start a religious debate
[17:23:11] <archivist> alex4nder, was looking if your video uses shared memory
[17:23:46] <alex4nder> archivist: yah it's shared
[17:23:59] <MDesade> looking at baldor's site, it isn't much better than Keling's at the moment... so, its hard to compare apples to apples....
[17:24:22] <archivist> alex4nder, ok a killer I found was scroll test in gedit with the scroll bar
[17:24:32] <alex4nder> archivist: ok
[17:24:55] <archivist> and a big text file
[17:25:12] <andypugh> Some nice motor + drive sets on eBay, but they all are priced at $700 per axis for the sort of size I think you need.
[17:25:58] <andypugh> There again, most drives are a lot more intelligent than is needed for LinuxCNC.
[17:26:44] <andypugh> There are some very LinuxCNC compatible truly-dumb drives, for example the Mesa 8i20. However there is, as far as I know, no way at all to use that with Mach3.
[17:27:16] * alex4nder shudders.
[17:27:18] <alex4nder> Mach3?
[17:28:56] <andypugh> 8i20 is a 400V 20A 3-phase drive (2.2kW) for $239. It can be made to run just about any industrial 3-phase servo (PMDC, BLDC, AC Servo)
[17:29:20] <Thetawaves> thanks for that info
[17:29:34] <andypugh> But as it has a dedicated digital interface to LinuxCNC it's not much use if you might want to use Mac3
[17:30:08] <andypugh> (Well, there _might_ be a way to use the SoftDMC software with Mach3, I don't know)
[17:33:38] <MDesade> ok guys, thanks for the input.... i'm going to have to research these servos... and wait until both keling and baldor are open. if you anyone has a better sugesstion for a motor mfg i am all ears here
[17:35:01] <MDesade> and again, i am unclear which would be more appropriate: the 4 or 8 wire motors
[17:35:04] <alex4nder> archivist: ok, the worst I could do is get my base thread to be ~4100 nS
[17:35:24] <andypugh> There are lots like this on eBay, but you would need to research the part number (juyst google it) to see if they are useful.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-3-AC-servo-motors-Sanyo-BL-Super-27BM013HXP-/110779063581
[17:36:15] <andypugh> MDesade: Steppers come in 4 wire and 8 wire (and 6 wire). Servos only ever have 2 or 3 power wires. (Plus encoder, hall sensor, temperature)
[17:37:32] <MDesade> ah, ok. that makes sens
[17:37:35] <MDesade> sense
[17:43:00] <alex4nder> up to 4.7 uS
[17:51:39] <jdhNC> I'd verify vendor information against some of the people here vs. the other way around.
[17:55:51] <archivist> this looks interesting for homebrew spindle balancing
http://www.technologie-entwicklung.de/Gasturbines/Balancing_Tool/balancing_tool.html
[18:11:12] <andypugh> It took me a while to spot what makes the shaft spin.
[18:15:30] <Jymmm> archivist: Heh, 10GHz 486 =)
[18:19:36] <Jymmm> archivist: Ok, some that sized and sensative, once you figure out where the inbalnace is, how would you compensate for it?
[18:28:01] <Jymmm> alex4nder: what kind of jitter you getting on that board?
[18:38:34] <gene77> Hey guys, I have a bit of a fuss about this mornings build of 2.6.0, on the lathe, I cannot stack mdi commands, but I've always been able to on the mill. ???
[18:42:06] <Valen> gene77: you might want to be a bit more specific as to the problem
[18:42:59] <alex4nder> Jymmm: worst case, 5uS
[18:43:17] <Jymmm> alex4nder: and the latency?
[18:44:13] <alex4nder> what do you mean?
[18:44:32] <Jymmm> 20,000ns? 15,000ns?
[18:44:41] <alex4nder> 5 uS is the jitter
[18:44:49] <alex4nder> off of a 25 uS and 1 mS thread.
[18:44:55] <Jymmm> ok
[18:45:24] <alex4nder> with isolcpus=1
[18:45:33] <alex4nder> and hyperthreading turned off
[18:46:19] <alex4nder> which means I can hit my target of 100 IPM
[18:47:13] <andypugh> gene77: you mean that if you enter an MDI command before the previous one has completed, it gets ignored?
[18:47:20] <andypugh> That sounds annoying.
[18:49:16] <andypugh> Michael Haberler has been doing a lot of work in MDI. Perhaps he has fixed something that didn't need to be fixed.
[18:49:36] <andypugh> mhaberler: Ah, there you are
[18:49:55] <mhaberler> permission to speak, Sir!
[18:51:27] <mhaberler> am I supposed to feel guilty ;-?
[18:51:57] <mhaberler> honestly, I didnt disable that explicitly
[18:52:23] <Valen> sure you didnt
[18:52:30] <Valen> its all a cunning plot with you isnt it
[18:52:32] <Valen> ;-P
[18:52:32] <mhaberler> a logfile would help
[18:52:39] <mhaberler> right...
[18:53:01] <Valen> (you will note the wink part of the smiley face there)
[18:53:53] <mhaberler> gene77: if you post a logfile with full debug and mark in it where you tried mdi and it didnt work, there is a chance of diagnosing. Otherwise, there is no chance.
[18:54:56] <andypugh> mhaberler: I don't know how to create such a logfile, so I suspect that gene77 doesn't either.
[18:56:00] <mhaberler> edit ini file and set DEBUG=0x7FFFFFFF - it should be there, just commented out; comment out other debug lines
[18:56:20] <gene77> No, not ignored, no 'focus' to enter, the thing is ghosted out till the present move has been completed.
[18:56:59] <gene77> That ought to be fairly easy to fnd I'd think.
[18:57:38] <andypugh> Ah, that sounds more related to Axis that MDI then. I wonder what has changed there?
[18:58:13] <Valen> could perhaps be mdi blocking until the command is complete?
[18:58:24] <mhaberler> please file a bug, including version, configuration and complete sequence of steps
[18:58:34] <mhaberler> and the log file
[18:59:12] <mhaberler> this ought to be fairly easy
[18:59:14] <gene77> So I've been driving it one command at a time, and this thing is cutting 10x cleaner than its ever cut before. Yes, I think axis is involved somehow. Yes Valen
[18:59:49] <gene77> I've got to go hit subway, continued when I get back, I'm starved & so is Dee.
[19:32:11] <andypugh> night all
[20:12:44] <alex4nder> ok
[20:12:55] <alex4nder> 6 hours in, and my max jitter is ~4.5uS and ~5uS
[20:51:20] <ReadError> pretty gusta
[20:52:17] <Jymmm> is that 5000nS ?
[20:52:30] <Jymmm> or 50,000nS
[20:54:20] <ReadError> 5k i think
[20:54:38] <Jymmm> yeah
[20:54:58] <Jymmm> alex4nder: using what mobo/cpu?
[20:55:18] <alex4nder> Jymmm: that Atom board I mentioned the other dat
[20:55:19] <alex4nder> er day
[20:55:21] <ReadError> im cutting Y U NO guy right now
[20:55:28] <alex4nder> the DN2800MT
[20:55:28] <ReadError> his teeth are very detailed
[20:55:30] <alex4nder> hah
[20:55:31] <Jymmm> alex4nder: the thin one?
[20:55:35] <alex4nder> yup
[20:55:41] <Jymmm> alex4nder: paraport?
[20:55:45] <alex4nder> yes
[20:55:55] <Jymmm> alex4nder: mesa card too?
[20:56:07] <alex4nder> I'm powering it off of a 12 volt supply.. I added an mSATA SSD and Mini PCIe wireless
[20:56:23] <alex4nder> Jymmm: no, this is for a simple stepper rig; no mesa card
[20:56:26] <alex4nder> it's hooked up to a G540
[20:56:31] <Jymmm> k
[20:56:50] <Jymmm> alex4nder: did you ever try running hidef video on it?
[20:56:58] <alex4nder> like, video playback?
[20:57:08] <Jymmm> yeah dvd BL etc
[20:57:22] <alex4nder> no
[20:57:53] <alex4nder> I've got 5 glxgears sessions running, a bunch of xterms spewing data, some gedits, and a continuous kernel build in the background
[20:57:55] <Jymmm> alex4nder: If you can connect a DVD drive and use a REAL DVD (not ripped or anything) I'd be interested inthe results.
[20:58:15] <alex4nder> haha, would you like fries with that?
[20:58:24] <Jymmm> alex4nder: No
[20:58:32] <alex4nder> I don't have a DVD drive unfortunately.
[20:58:35] <Jymmm> alex4nder: it can be a usb dvd drive
[20:58:49] <alex4nder> what information are you trying to get?
[20:58:58] <Jymmm> playback jitter
[20:59:32] <Jymmm> with AC5.1 full uncompressed DVD playback
[20:59:33] <alex4nder> well if it's going to happen, I doubt it'll be the fact you're using a DVD drive.. I'm using a VESA X driver, because the integrated video has no 'native' open-source drivers
[21:00:07] <Jymmm> VESA is fine, it's not the video I'm after, it's the mpeg decoding
[21:00:18] <alex4nder> well why don't I just decode an MPEG on it?
[21:00:25] <Jymmm> the jitter is just the results of the mpeg chicking =)
[21:00:32] <Jymmm> choking
[21:00:35] <alex4nder> I have VOB rips
[21:00:51] <Jymmm> Rips are not the same, those are easy to palyback
[21:01:00] <alex4nder> why would they be any easier?
[21:01:01] <Jymmm> did you remaster the rips?
[21:01:03] <alex4nder> no
[21:01:07] <alex4nder> they're the bytes off of the DVD
[21:01:28] * alex4nder installs VLC
[21:01:48] <Jymmm> perfect
[21:02:28] <Jymmm> alex4nder: did you remove the "overhead" by chance?
[21:09:47] <alex4nder> Jymmm: haha, are you trolling me now>
[21:09:48] <alex4nder> ??
[21:15:30] <Jymmm> ?
[21:15:34] <Jymmm> oh, what did it come with accessory/cables wise?
[21:15:53] <Jymmm> I saw a atx plate
[21:16:30] <Jymmm> alex4nder: and power cables?
[21:16:32] <Jymmm> any
[21:18:02] <Jymmm> alex4nder: oh crap... RealTek NIC, WTF?!
[21:20:04] <alex4nder> what?
[21:20:51] <alex4nder> [ 1.803944] e1000e: Intel(R) PRO/1000 Network Driver - 1.0.2-k2
[21:20:55] <alex4nder> doesn't look like a realtek to me
[21:21:32] <djdelorie> stick with the e1000 - that's what I've got
[21:23:45] <alex4nder> Jymmm: it comes with two ATX plates, a couple SATA cables, and a power cable that plugs into the SATA-power-like connector on the motherboard
[21:24:30] <alex4nder> the power connectors are rated for over 8 amps.. I think their example power usage came in at < 100 watts.
[21:32:36] <jdhNC> alex4: what case are you using?
[21:32:49] <alex4nder> jdhNC: not sure yet
[21:32:55] <alex4nder> I got the board on Friday.
[21:55:31] <pfred1> who is the degenerate responsibile for the Linux FAQ?
[21:57:52] <jdhNC> you could blame Jymmm if you want
[21:58:10] <pfred1> heck I didn't even know page up and page down paged in less
[21:58:18] <pfred1> I always used the spacebar and b
[21:58:51] <pfred1> like normal people!
[21:59:14] <jdhNC> I knew it, but still use space/b
[21:59:59] <Tom_itx> what sort of bleed off do ppl use on the main psu for the caps on powerdown?
[22:00:03] <pfred1> well man pages use less as the pager and in the faq it says use page up page down
[22:00:09] <alex4nder> jdhNC: I might pick up one of these
http://www.amazon.com/Universal-Mini-ITX-enclosure-PicoPSU-compatible/dp/B003DXI288/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1335754128&sr=1-1
[22:00:28] <jdhNC> alex4: that requires an external PS?
[22:00:49] <alex4nder> jdhNC: the board takes 9-18v DC in
[22:00:52] <alex4nder> directly
[22:00:54] <pfred1> Tom_itx I like an LED
[22:01:07] <Tom_itx> led would take a long time
[22:01:15] <pfred1> Tom_itx wit hthe appropriate current limiting resistor of course
[22:01:23] <pfred1> not really
[22:01:26] <jdhNC> oh, it doesn't need one of those funky atx ps adapter thingies?
[22:01:34] <Tom_itx> 20000 uf
[22:01:41] <jdhNC> excuse the technical terms
[22:01:49] <Tom_itx> on a 50v supply
[22:01:58] <pfred1> well if yo uneed it bled faster yo ucan jump it but you'd be surprised
[22:02:54] <pfred1> actually with the light you should never be surprised
[22:03:18] <jdhNC> es file explorer
[22:03:22] <jdhNC> <urk>
[22:03:24] <Tom_itx> is it a good idea or does it matter if the logic supply comes up before the main load supply?
[22:03:52] <Tom_itx> the drivers aren't gonna move until they get a signal anyway
[22:03:52] <pfred1> Tom_itx if time is really a factor get a real power pig if an LED
[22:04:12] <Tom_itx> pfred1 i considered a 500 ohm r
[22:04:43] <pfred1> Tom_itx it is just how i build PSUs I wire the indicator lamp to the filter caps
[22:05:16] <Tom_itx> i suppose i could test that
[22:05:40] <pfred1> 50K cap will take some time but you can get some really piggy LEDs today
[22:06:01] <pfred1> I use the old red ones they suck some juice
[22:06:09] <Tom_itx> i got some of those
[22:06:31] <pfred1> plus i like watching it fade
[22:07:10] <alex4nder> jdhNC: no, you just plug in DC
[22:08:34] <jdhNC> nifty.
[22:11:27] <pfred1> Tom_itx try an LED with a 4.5K resistor it should live
[22:12:54] <Tom_itx> i'll have 3, i just added them to my psu caps board
[22:13:11] <pfred1> should be less than 10ma at 50V
[22:13:15] <djdelorie> get a 7 watt "night light" bulb
[22:13:27] <djdelorie> it will drain anything up to 160 VDC
[22:13:37] <pfred1> hmm lets figure out the current
[22:13:45] <Tom_itx> pfred1 i could drive it a little harder
[22:13:57] <Tom_itx> i have no idea what the leds are
[22:14:06] <djdelorie> for 50v and 20 mA, you need a 1 watt resistor...
[22:14:09] <Tom_itx> i just stuck an led and r footprint on the board
[22:14:37] <pfred1> really 7W @ 50V is only 0.14 of an amp
[22:15:01] <djdelorie> a night light bulb is just a 7 watt resistor, which is all you need
[22:15:34] <Tom_itx> i have the leds
[22:15:34] <djdelorie> and it's 7 watts at 120 VAC, not 7 watts at 50 VDC
[22:15:44] <Tom_itx> if they don't drain it quick enough i'll add something else
[22:15:52] <pfred1> true as the filament heats up the resistance goes up doesn't it?
[22:16:21] <djdelorie> don't know, don't care. It's a resistor, that's all I care about :-)
[22:16:26] <pfred1> bulbs are reactive loads
[22:16:47] <djdelorie> reactive?
[22:16:47] <pfred1> sure
[22:16:56] <djdelorie> what makes you say that?
[22:16:57] <pfred1> they aren't constant
[22:17:10] <djdelorie> "reactive" implies a capacitive or inductive component
[22:17:11] <pfred1> that is what makes them great current limiters
[22:18:20] <pfred1> bulbs react in their own special way
[22:19:10] <pfred1> there were speakers made once that used light bulbs as current limiters yo ucould plug the speakers into the wall and they wouldn't blow
[22:20:36] <pfred1> plus there is a popular stepper motor driver that uses bulbs as current limiters
[22:37:04] <alex4nder> case ordered
[22:37:19] <alex4nder> looks like I can fit a mesa pci-e card in there as well
[22:39:01] <A0Sheds> http://chicago.craigslist.org/nwc/bfs/2980580030.html Walker turner radial drill press - $600
[22:39:17] <A0Sheds> wish it had better pics
[22:59:37] <pfred1> think my PC has enough cooling fans?
http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/imageview.php?image=3101
[23:20:32] <Jymmm> pfred1: No, there's still room for more.
[23:24:36] <Jymmm> alex4nder: So, what cables come with the mobo?
[23:49:45] <Thetawaves> incredible
http://www.home-machine-shop.com/projects/Mark_Ho/HoArt7.jpg
[23:50:43] <toastydeath> eh? what's that?
[23:50:47] <toastydeath> perspective?
[23:50:48] <toastydeath> http://www.stolkmachine.com/images/cnc-horizontal-boring-mill-big.jpg
[23:55:28] <Thetawaves> the level craftsmen ship in those figures
[23:56:41] <djdelorie> even if it's CGI, it's still incredible
[23:57:14] <djdelorie> (but it doesn't appear to be CGI)
[23:59:04] <pfred1> that isn't raytracing?
[23:59:17] <djdelorie> http://www.home-machine-shop.com/projects/Mark_Ho/Artist_In_Metal_Mark_Ho.htm
