#linuxcnc | Logs for 2012-04-19

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[00:50:20] <Loetmichel> mornin'
[00:51:40] <djdelorie> so it is...
[01:00:29] <pcw_home> jdhnc: its for plain 7I47 (the older 7I43 files used to have a B or S for the Big or Small FPGA)
[01:01:19] <pcw_home> feel free to rename it
[01:14:12] <pingufan> Goon morning. Can EMC 2.4.6 directly mill a simple text from G-Code? I want to engrave 0,1,2,3,4,5... into a front plate. As I manually code the job, coding fonts is a little bit complex.
[01:15:09] <awallin> you need something like truetype-tracer to produce the g-code
[01:15:54] <archivist> http://timeguy.com/cradek/truetype
[01:16:44] <archivist> outline or v carve fons though?
[01:17:04] <pingufan> I see. So the AXIS "EMC 2.4...." is already a converted thing.
[01:17:16] <pingufan> V-carve
[01:17:38] <awallin> truetype-tracer doesn't do v-carve..
[01:17:51] <awallin> my own scripts for that are kind of experimental at the moment
[01:18:12] <pingufan> I will code this 8 digits by hands. :( Would be a nice feature to add a text-milling command to emc
[01:18:31] <awallin> if you want you can try https://github.com/aewallin/linuxcnc-scripts/blob/master/ttt2medial.py
[01:19:05] <archivist> much easier to use to awallin's new stuff than hand code vcarve
[01:20:23] <pingufan> Btw: When I manually code a font, it has a particular size. Can I scale it afterwards, or do I have to recode it entirely?
[01:21:00] <pingufan> I.e. if I want to mill it in double size.
[01:21:14] <archivist> depends on your coding ability
[01:21:28] <awallin> use variables when you write the g-code...
[01:21:43] <pingufan> Lerning, but not so bad. I use meanwhile several kinds of loops, etc.
[01:21:59] <awallin> there was a simple GUI for my v-carving code, I should get the person who wrote that to put it on github
[01:22:16] <awallin> the kerning problem with truetype-tracer however remains :(
[01:23:05] <archivist> for one number at a time that wont bother him probably
[01:23:24] <pingufan> So there is no code to tell EMC2 to double every movement temporarily?
[01:23:39] <archivist> no
[01:23:54] <pingufan> (I say G0 x10, and it does a G0 x20 then)
[01:24:33] <pingufan> Would also be a nice feature.
[01:25:06] <archivist> makes little sense, better to scale IN gcode
[01:26:10] <pingufan> Except if you have to recode then such things (as a font).
[01:26:50] <pingufan> So I could plot the font with relative moves and a height of "1", and then simply scale it.
[01:27:23] <djdelorie> pingufan: I think you're misunderstanding what linuxCNC's job is. It takes a list of simple movement commands and figures out how to do them within the constraints of the machine it's running.
[01:27:31] <archivist> you use scale and height IN your gcode to scale as needed
[01:27:38] <djdelorie> It's the job of one of the many CAM applications to generate that list of commands
[01:28:08] * archivist scales in his gcode :)
[01:28:27] <pingufan> You are right. But while and if are also no normal G-codes, right?
[01:28:42] <archivist> normal for linuxcnc
[01:28:54] <pingufan> So it could be with scaling. ;)
[01:29:06] <pingufan> Or mirroring
[01:29:10] <pingufan> or ...
[01:29:12] <archivist> no because that can break things
[01:29:54] <pingufan> Especially mirroring would be a very useful function
[01:31:11] <archivist> I mirror and rotate with a few named variables
[01:32:39] <archivist> so my escape wheel generator varies its direction of cut, number of teeth depth etc with a few named variables at the top
[01:32:57] <pingufan> But then you have to use them in almost every particular coordinate. Code would be much(!) safer (because easier to read) when only one definition i.e. mirrors everything.
[01:33:25] <archivist> by generator I mean it cuts a curve using a slitting saw
[01:37:52] <pingufan> Ok, thanks for the information. Have to continue coding...
[01:38:11] <pingufan> ... Fonts and letters
[02:02:24] <DJ9DJ> moin
[02:11:17] <alex4nder> sup
[03:19:33] <cnc-9-Achsen> hi all if i generate the steplen and the stepspace with stepconf where are this numbers
[03:19:44] <cnc-9-Achsen> i see only a 1 and a 0 in the hal
[03:20:09] <cnc-9-Achsen> i used 5000 for steplen
[03:25:01] <cnc-9-Achsen> the dirhold and dirspace are set in he ini per axis
[05:40:50] <Thetawaves> i'm thinking about building a prefabricated slide for my lathe
[05:40:53] <Thetawaves> main slide
[05:41:05] <Thetawaves> http://www.ebay.com/itm/PARKER-802-2435A-DUAL-LINEAR-SLIDE-EXCELLENT-/251041087234?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a7336ff02
[05:41:08] <Thetawaves> but perhaps bigger
[05:43:27] <Thetawaves> building? i meant buying of course
[06:02:03] <Thetawaves> WANT http://www.ebay.com/itm/LINEAR-STAGE-ACTUATOR-TABLE-13-TRAVEL-HEAVY-DUTY-/260872162941?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cbd314e7d
[06:08:43] <awallin> eh, no ballscrew..
[06:13:16] <Thetawaves> ahhh yeah
[06:13:46] <Thetawaves> 16 inch rails should be plenty long for a minilathe yeah?
[06:14:23] <Thetawaves> with no tail stock
[06:15:15] <Thetawaves> ...ok linear stages are expensive ... and small
[06:25:45] <Thetawaves> yeah 16" is not much
[06:25:58] <Thetawaves> i'll have to stick with a 16" cross slide as originally planned
[06:57:00] <jdhnc> anyone ever seen a SVST2_4_7I47 xml for 7i43s?
[07:15:28] <mazafaka> Have clipped the K 3Acam action camera to the baseball hat and results were quite interesting
[07:22:44] <Tom_itx> jdhnc i think i posted it
[07:23:54] <Tom_itx> jdhnc, did you look in the subdir of that zip?
[07:28:30] <jdhnc> Tom_itx: the pin file is there, no xml though.
[07:29:28] <jdhnc> I am not capable of configuring it from scratch at the moment and would like to be able to use pncconf to get started anyway.
[07:32:52] <Tom_itx> check my site and see if it may be there... i'm not sure. i gotta go now though
[07:33:11] <jdhnc> there is one there for the larger 7i43
[07:33:17] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/emc/hostmot2-firmware/
[07:33:18] <jdhnc> where did yours come from?
[07:33:22] <Tom_itx> mesa
[07:33:25] <Tom_itx> i think
[07:33:31] <Tom_itx> same zip probably
[07:33:50] <Tom_itx> i'm not at the other pc or i'd upload the zip
[07:34:06] <jdhnc> I looked through the zip, the pin file is in there
[07:34:25] <Tom_itx> if the pin file it, the xml should be also
[07:34:31] <Tom_itx> maybe in another dir
[07:34:45] <Tom_itx> also: http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/emc/xilinx/xilinx_install_index.php
[07:34:55] <jdhnc> the xml file is linuxcnc specific
[07:35:04] <Tom_itx> not emc?
[07:35:12] <Tom_itx> mmm
[07:35:14] <jdhnc> ok, emc specific
[07:35:43] <jdhnc> afaict, the xml is only used by pncconf
[07:36:28] <Tom_itx> i'm sure pcw can get it if you can't find it
[07:53:17] <dimas> hi all
[07:57:16] <awallin> here's one way to do V-carving :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=iUGkroZus_Y
[08:04:45] <Jymmm> Seems faster by hand than cnc
[08:24:05] <Jymmm> Got Saw? Pretty cool actually... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v62lfkkISl0&feature=endscreen&NR=1
[08:26:49] <jdhnc> looks like the xml for the big 7i43 migh twork with a few small edits.
[08:41:31] <asdfasd> if the main board is with integrated video with shared memory is that 100% guaranteed that this board is not suitable for driving via parallel port?
[08:44:12] <jdhnc> I doubt anything is 100%, but I would not expect it to work well.
[08:44:52] <jdhnc> for less than $100, you could get an Atom board and RAM. Use the existing case/disk?
[08:45:02] <joe9> asdfasd: use tracing to check if that is a bother.
[08:46:10] <pcw_home> shared memory video works fine on the Atom boards
[08:46:20] <asdfasd> few moths ago I found very small mother board and tested with mach3 but not working at all
[08:46:36] <pcw_home> and the Hudson boards as well
[08:47:07] <asdfasd> Im not sure but that was somethink like neoware PC
[08:47:28] <Loetmichel> asdfasd: hmm, i have a industrial with internal video... anbd thats fine with LinuxCNC
[08:47:49] <asdfasd> then It is worth to try
[08:47:53] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=13089&g2_imageViewsIndex=1
[08:48:52] <Loetmichel> and ists rather olöd hardware: p4 2,8GHZ, 2gb DDR, 80GB sata1, intel extreme grapics
[08:48:56] <Loetmichel> old
[09:04:50] <mazafaka> Uh.... Wannan know... / When buffling-muffling Rachel / Plan to go and buy a car / Gimme a nap, gimme the fries / Gimme all what I want to find! / Yeah-eh... :)
[09:06:04] <joe9> djdelorie: do you know if I can use the gcode exported by geda pcb as-is with linuxcnc? the file loads properly. not sure if there is anything to be aware of.
[09:13:50] <jdhnc> does it look reasonable in the backplot?
[09:31:33] <joe9> jdhnc: what is "backplot"? it looks good in the gui. I read about "backplot" in another tutorial too, but was not able to figure out what it was.
[09:31:52] <joe9> it looks good in the image on the gui
[09:33:43] <jdhnc> run it and see what it doese
[09:33:58] <jdhnc> set Z up high, touch off, run
[09:34:19] <joe9> ok, thanks. will do.
[09:34:41] <joe9> jdhnc: btw, what is "backplot"?
[09:35:01] <jdhnc> the tool paths shown in the gui
[09:47:01] <joe9> jdhnc: ok, thanks.
[10:15:13] <IchGuckLive> hi all on stepgen is it that only the BASE_PERIOD and MAX_VELOCITY and its INPUT_SCALE gives me the steplen internal there is only a 1 in the parameter at etch axis
[10:15:50] <IchGuckLive> cant i get diferent or persenal numbers in there
[10:16:14] <IchGuckLive> or better WHERE do the numbers of stepconfgenerator go to
[10:17:06] <IchGuckLive> Step wizard page 1 the 4 numbers and the jitter
[10:46:39] <ReadError> :(
[10:46:50] <ReadError> seems they may have fubard my mill shipment
[10:50:04] <IchGuckLive> it will come and yiou will be working all night B)
[10:50:21] <IchGuckLive> By< im off
[11:14:16] <djdelorie> joe9: I've never run it, try it on a piece of pine or something if you don't want to waste copper
[11:14:27] <joe9> ok, thanks.
[11:14:43] <joe9> djdelorie: what do you use to build your gcode from pcb files?
[11:14:53] <ReadError> joe9: seems they shipped 1 of my packages to buford GA
[11:14:59] <ReadError> then left the address off the other ;(
[11:15:04] <djdelorie> I don't
[11:15:20] <joe9> ReadError: are you talking about the mill bits or the taig?
[11:15:24] <ReadError> taig
[11:15:25] <joe9> djdelorie: ok, thanks.
[11:15:39] <djdelorie> I use chemical etch, so I export PNGs and print them to transparencies
[11:21:35] <Connor> X-Axis moving!! :)
[11:21:58] <ReadError> joe9: how did you hook up the motors?
[11:22:04] <ReadError> i see i have 2 different options
[11:39:38] <ssi> so are ReadError and joe9 both doing taigs?
[11:47:37] <ReadError> yessir
[11:47:54] <ReadError> my motors have 9 wires
[11:48:04] <ReadError> guess i need to take the DMM to them and see which are what
[11:48:10] <ReadError> unless theres some coloring convention
[11:48:48] <Connor> jdhnc: You there?
[11:48:54] <djdelorie> you likely have four independently wired coils, and a frame ground
[11:50:10] <Connor> Most likely, you'll have to tie some of those together.
[11:52:15] <alex4nder> hey
[11:53:45] <ReadError> mornin sir.
[11:53:49] <alex4nder> how's it?
[11:53:56] <ReadError> lol
[11:53:58] <ReadError> not so good
[11:54:04] <ReadError> UPS/taig fubar'd my shipment
[11:54:12] <ReadError> 1 package w/o address apparantly
[11:54:20] <ReadError> the other was delivered 65 miles away
[11:54:24] <joe9> ReadError: buy 4 wire shielded cable from homedepot. around 3 ft per motor.
[11:54:39] <ReadError> joe9: i got the db9 cables
[11:54:43] <ReadError> made for cnc
[11:54:48] <joe9> ReadError: my motors had 8 wires.
[11:54:54] <joe9> and, do you have the resistor.
[11:54:57] * ReadError counts again
[11:54:59] <alex4nder> ReadError: that sucks
[11:55:04] <ReadError> i got a big collection of resistors
[11:55:19] <ReadError> if not i can go to radio shack
[11:55:27] <joe9> ReadError: from the g540 spec, figure out the resistor.
[11:55:41] <joe9> with the db9 cables, mine just needed 4 wires.
[11:55:53] <alex4nder> ReadError: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELfONtG_Zkk <- I put this up yesterday
[11:55:55] <ReadError> is there a universal coloring convention?
[11:56:06] <alex4nder> ReadError: just read the datasheet
[11:56:07] <joe9> motor pigtail -> wire nut -> cable -> db9 connector
[11:56:25] <alex4nder> ReadError: what's the model number for the stepper you bought?
[11:57:31] <ReadError> NEMA23 282oz/in 3A Stepper Motor ¼” Dual shaft (KL23H276-30-8B)
[11:58:03] <joe9> i think that was the same thing I have. have you gone with around 3.5A?
[11:58:11] <joe9> i thought I told you to watch out for that.
[11:58:24] <joe9> oh, yeah. 3A
[11:58:27] <joe9> good.
[11:58:56] <ReadError> alex4nder said it would work with the smaller ones
[11:59:09] <ReadError> but all the buildups(deepgrove) use the 280s
[11:59:11] <joe9> yes, that is good motors.
[11:59:21] <ReadError> so i figured only a bit more..
[11:59:49] <alex4nder> joe9: don't give advice if you haven't used them yet. ;)
[11:59:57] <alex4nder> you'll get noob to noob feedback
[12:00:19] <joe9> alex4nder: check the bipolar rating in the spec.
[12:00:26] <joe9> alex4nder: they are 4.2 A
[12:00:35] <joe9> those are the ones I have too.
[12:00:47] <joe9> alex4nder: i use them.
[12:01:18] <alex4nder> joe9: I'm talking about recommending any motors until you actually do some milling. :P
[12:01:48] <joe9> alex4nder: dude, the spec says differently. it does not need a rocket scientist to notice that.
[12:01:55] <ReadError> http://www.kelinginc.net/KL23H276-30-8B.pdf
[12:02:02] <alex4nder> joe9: 12:45 < joe9> yes, that is good motors.
[12:02:05] <alex4nder> how would you know?
[12:02:06] <alex4nder> jesus
[12:02:11] <ReadError> need to figure out which config to go with
[12:03:00] <joe9> < alex4nder> how would you know? -- from the spec and I have them too.
[12:03:38] <alex4nder> you're being obtuse.
[12:03:43] <alex4nder> forget it.
[12:04:13] <alex4nder> ReadError: I would run them unipolar
[12:05:10] <joe9> alex4nder: did not mean to offend you. but, this was something I had run into.
[12:05:10] <alex4nder> "unipolar" .. which is really the same as bipolar series in this case, because you're using a G540
[12:05:33] <joe9> ReadError: do you have 9 wires? I thought mine had 8.
[12:07:29] <joe9> /ws 25
[12:07:35] <jdhnc> connor: back.
[12:07:46] <Connor> get my X axis working last night.
[12:07:49] <Connor> *dance*
[12:09:38] <alex4nder> ReadError: if it were me, I'd wire one half of each 'unipolar' configuration to the G540
[12:10:17] <jdhnc> Connor: cool!
[12:10:25] <alex4nder> ReadError: you'll see more current consumption, and less torque, but you'll probably see better response from the stepper
[12:10:26] <jdhnc> direct drive, stock screws?
[12:11:04] <ReadError> ah yes, 8 wires must have mis-counted last night
[12:11:08] <jdhnc> Connor: what's the shaft size on the stock screws?
[12:11:21] <Connor> 8mm-1.25
[12:12:04] <jdhnc> do the have existing bearings, or just in the hole?
[12:13:34] <Connor> Oh wait. the 8mm is the thread size. they have thrust bearings. Inner and Outter on the right side, and just a outer on the left.
[12:13:45] <Connor> Since I put the stepper on the left.. I swapped that.
[12:13:58] <jdhnc> no radial bearing?
[12:14:03] <Connor> no
[12:14:16] <jdhnc> is there room to add one?
[12:14:40] <Connor> Probably.. not sure.
[12:15:03] <Connor> I think people are replacing the endcaps to do that.
[12:15:16] <Connor> instead of using stock endcaps.
[12:15:20] <jdhnc> once you get it runnng, you can mill new end peices
[12:15:37] <Connor> I can do 105 IPM on the X
[12:15:47] <jdhnc> how much lash in the stock screw/nut?
[12:16:11] <Connor> Dunno yet.. I've not measured it. I was up till 4am playing..
[12:16:16] <jdhnc> heh
[12:16:17] <Connor> I'll no more this weekend.
[12:16:32] <jdhnc> I was up til 2 trying to get my 7i43 to play with the daughterboard
[12:16:44] <Connor> I still need to put some locktight on the threaded coupler and on the set screws.
[12:18:01] <ReadError> so i need to wire all 8, but ground out 4 of them
[12:18:28] <ReadError> and combine red/yello
[12:18:28] <alex4nder> no
[12:18:29] <jdhnc> I almost ordered a pair of 570oz motors and KL5056 for the X/Y, but wasn't sure if the 3/8" shaft would work with the cncfusion kit.
[12:18:48] <alex4nder> ReadError: you need to make a decision of if you want to go bipolar half winding or bipolar full winding
[12:19:21] <jdhnc> or parallel if you are in to that sort of thing.
[12:19:58] <ReadError> oh i was looking at the unipolar config
[12:20:44] <alex4nder> the G540 is a "bipolar" drive.. so you can wire it however you want, as long as you respect the current limits.
[12:21:17] <pcw_home> jdhnc which daughtercard? with the right config it should just work
[12:21:46] <jdhnc> pcw: 7i47. I'm sure it might work, but I still need pncconf to work since I have no clue what I am doing with it yet.
[12:21:48] <Connor> jdhnc: Should. It's the coupler that matters.
[12:22:20] <pcw_home> Oh I would not try pncconf unless you use a very standard set of cards
[12:22:20] <jdhnc> Connor: the kit says 1/4, just need to make sure they can swap them. They are not very responsive to emails
[12:22:36] <jdhnc> pcw: what would be more standard?
[12:22:41] <Connor> Just bore them out.
[12:22:45] <alex4nder> joe9: did you wire yours in a full bipolar or half?
[12:22:54] <jdhnc> Connor: they cost too much to risk.
[12:23:04] <pcw_home> hm2-stepper sample config
[12:23:15] <Connor> I had to bore out the Oldham side so I could tape it for the 8mm-1.25
[12:23:35] <jdhnc> pcw: that's what I was playing with, but I was hoping a 7i47 specific config would help me out with names/wiring/etc.
[12:25:11] <pcw_home> pncconf is so hardwired to specific configs there will always be ones not supported
[12:25:13] <jdhnc> pcw: does using a 7i47 change anything logically vs. just a plain terminal board?
[12:25:21] <pcw_home> No
[12:25:32] <jdhnc> I assume it is pin-for-pin the same, just signal conditioning?
[12:25:50] <jdhnc> and maybe a chance of using sserial if needed with a non-standard config?
[12:26:20] <pcw_home> you just need the FPGA pinout (dmesg will tell you the FPGA side pinout)
[12:26:22] <pcw_home> and how the 7I47 routes these signals (7I47 manual)
[12:27:04] <IchGuckLive> pcw_home: hi today my chief asked me if im able to config a 5Axis 4lin 1rot with steper and encoder do you got a soulution for this in stock Step/Dir Encoder AB/I
[12:27:14] <pcw_home> yes there are 7I47 configs with sserial
[12:27:40] <jdhnc> there is more than enough IO for now. Might be fun to be able to use it in the future.
[12:27:45] <pcw_home> encoder for?
[12:28:10] <jdhnc> If I config the 7i43 for 4 stepgens and 1 pwm, is there any way to keep the pwm on the first port?
[12:28:20] <IchGuckLive> i think there are on the steppers i guess or on the pulley
[12:29:06] <pcw_home> jdhnc if it not in a standard config it would need a custom config (pretty easy, a few minutes)
[12:29:26] <IchGuckLive> some mashines loses somtimes steps the acuracy isent that high requierd 0.1mm
[12:29:58] <jdhnc> pcw: thanks, I might hit you up for that in the future. I think I can get buy with just the IO on the one 7i47
[12:30:14] <pcw_home> IchGuckLive any of our 50 pin FPGA cards and a 7I52S will give you 6 encoder inputs and 6 step/dir outputs
[12:32:14] <joe9> alex4nder: bipolar parallel
[12:36:16] <ReadError> which do you run alex4nder?
[12:37:04] <ReadError> BP series?
[12:40:12] <alex4nder> joe9: you run them bipolar parallel, and you're just using the 3.5amp limit?
[12:40:34] <alex4nder> ReadError: I run half-winding bipolar on X and Y and a full-winding bipolar on Z
[12:41:17] <alex4nder> joe9: how fast are you running X and Y?
[12:41:45] <alex4nder> ReadError: when I rewire Z, I'll go back to half-winding bipolar
[12:41:51] <joe9> alex4nder: yes, just the 3.5Amp limit. I think the resistor was sized to 4A. the G540 spec says that above 3.5A, the resistor does not matter.
[12:43:01] <alex4nder> joe9: what speed are you running your table at?
[12:44:37] <IchGuckLive> An 8 lead motor in a parallel configuration offers a more stable, but lower torque at lower speeds.
[12:45:58] <joe9> alex4nder: my max velocity in the .ini file is 0.95 inch
[12:46:09] <joe9> and 0.5 for Z axis
[12:46:31] <IchGuckLive> turns per inch ?
[12:46:34] <joe9> default velocity is 0.10
[12:46:47] <joe9> and the max_linear_velocity = 1.00
[12:47:00] <joe9> IchGuckLive: i think it probably is inches per min.
[12:47:26] <IchGuckLive> inch/sec
[12:47:46] <joe9> IchGuckLive: maybe, not sure. will have to check.
[12:48:06] <IchGuckLive> at this low i think you are better up with serial
[12:48:29] <alex4nder> it's a 20 TPI machine
[12:49:11] <ReadError> so if i got parallel
[12:49:16] <ReadError> i wont need a resistor it seems
[12:49:35] <IchGuckLive> A series motor configuration would typically be used in applications where a higher torque at lower
[12:49:36] <alex4nder> don't be suprised if your G540 gets as hot as joe9's
[12:49:36] <IchGuckLive> speeds is required. And aklso less Amps on the driver
[12:50:13] <ReadError> alex4nder: so you run series+resistor?
[12:50:22] <alex4nder> ReadError: I run half winding
[12:50:25] * ReadError is very confused and probably needs coffee
[12:50:25] <IchGuckLive> therfor i think joe9 shoudt change
[12:50:35] <ReadError> i just see parallel and series in the pdf
[12:50:42] <alex4nder> ReadError: see the unipolar?
[12:50:46] <ReadError> yup
[12:50:49] <alex4nder> cut that in half, that's half winding bipolar
[12:50:58] <alex4nder> that's what I run.
[12:51:02] <djdelorie> a series wiring at twice the voltage should give you the same torque at half the current
[12:51:18] <alex4nder> I made the choice to go with lower inductance
[12:51:26] <alex4nder> because I thought speed would be the issue, not torque.
[12:51:34] <ReadError> so you just run the A channel?
[12:51:48] <alex4nder> well we have different motors
[12:51:50] <alex4nder> mine are 6 wire
[12:52:09] <IchGuckLive> 6wire is always serial
[12:52:10] <djdelorie> speed depends on voltage as well; with twice the inductance (series) you need twice the voltage. For half the inductance (parallel) you need twice the current
[12:52:30] <alex4nder> IchGuckLive: not with a bipolar drive
[12:52:49] <alex4nder> I just power half of the unipolar winding
[12:53:00] <djdelorie> 6wire can be driven bipolar or serial
[12:53:02] <IchGuckLive> djdelorie: agree at 48V with a 5.1V stepper its not nessasary to get paralell
[12:53:57] <djdelorie> in every case I've seen so far, the serial/parallel question is answered by some part of the drive chain having some limit that requires one or the other
[12:54:06] <jdhnc> connor: ever have any luck with the spindle control?
[12:55:04] <alex4nder> djdelorie: I bet all of these Taigs are speed limited based on the stepper generation.
[12:55:08] <alex4nder> I know mine is.
[12:55:34] <alex4nder> with my small steppers running in half winding, I should be able to get above 100 IPM
[12:55:48] <djdelorie> what I meant is, usually the power supply has limited amps, or the driver has a max voltage, that makes you choose one wiring over the other
[12:56:12] <djdelorie> or something like that
[12:56:39] <djdelorie> whether your machine can handle the speed/torque being given to it is a separate problem ;-)
[12:56:51] <alex4nder> eh, it is 'the' problem
[12:56:59] <alex4nder> everything else is properly designing your infrastructure. ;)
[12:57:00] <djdelorie> yeah, on my machine too
[12:57:49] <djdelorie> I have three servos rated at 2.5A cont 7.5A peak, and I'm driving all three with a single 2A power supply, and they still go faster than the machine can handle
[12:57:52] <alex4nder> all of this will matter when I start building my spaceship for my solo mission to mars.
[12:58:35] <alex4nder> ReadError: the long and short of all of this is: don't burn down your house.
[12:58:48] <alex4nder> everything else will work and be an engineering tradeoff.
[13:09:07] <joe9> my G540 does get very hot.
[13:09:52] <jdhnc> steppers/drivers are not known for efficiency.
[13:10:09] <jdhnc> use the G540 case for reflow work.
[13:10:43] <joe9> jdhnc: haha..
[13:11:07] <alex4nder> joe9: you're also running it right up next to its max spec.
[13:11:14] <ReadError> well
[13:11:18] <ReadError> i got 1 box...
[13:11:20] <ReadError> ;((
[13:11:37] <alex4nder> that sucks
[13:11:49] <alex4nder> did you at least get the table?
[13:14:15] <Connor> jdhnc: Sending the C6 back, C41 should be in tommorrow
[13:14:49] <ReadError> havnt opened it yet
[13:15:31] <IchGuckLive> Leadshine new EM serias out some checkt one jet
[13:25:08] <FinboySlick> alex4nder: Just watched your spiral milling video... It's so quiet!
[13:25:38] <FinboySlick> Did you put any lubrication/coolant? Or is your cutter ultra-sharp?
[13:26:13] <alex4nder> I used a little bit on the cutter to prevent sticking, but no it's just some crappy HSS cutter I got from china
[13:27:40] <FinboySlick> alex4nder: I really need to practice more. What RPM?
[13:29:49] <ReadError> damn this is stupid
[13:29:57] <ReadError> 1-8 days for them to 'trace' the package
[13:30:03] <ReadError> we know what address it went to
[13:30:08] <ReadError> just go by and fricken pick it up
[13:30:29] <FinboySlick> ReadError: But then it wouldn't be traced!
[13:30:35] <ReadError> yea
[13:30:37] <ReadError> it will be thrown out
[13:30:37] <FinboySlick> ;)
[13:30:41] <ReadError> or sold for scrap metal by then
[13:30:45] <ReadError> ;(
[13:30:59] <FinboySlick> ReadError: Missing your toys?
[13:31:04] <ReadError> yes ;(
[13:31:13] <FinboySlick> What did you get?
[13:31:16] <ReadError> they sent 1 box to the wrong address
[13:31:18] <ReadError> taig mill
[13:31:35] <FinboySlick> Oh darn... I'd be climbing the curtains.
[13:31:46] <FinboySlick> Especially if it's your first mill.
[13:31:48] <IchGuckLive> By im off B) O.O
[13:31:51] <ReadError> yes ;(
[13:31:58] <ReadError> plus i got everything here
[13:32:02] <ReadError> controller, motors, etc
[13:32:09] <FinboySlick> Everything but the mill.
[13:32:12] <ReadError> and 3 days off :(
[13:32:16] <ReadError> well 1/2 the mill
[13:32:22] <FinboySlick> I feel your pain.
[13:32:27] <ReadError> im not sure which part havnt opened the box yet
[13:32:35] <ReadError> i should probably check..
[13:32:43] <FinboySlick> Had a heck of a time getting mine... And another heck of a time just putting it in place...
[13:32:53] <FinboySlick> And now that it's all set... Well, I don't have time to use it.
[13:33:20] <alex4nder> FinboySlick: that was running at ~3k.. I could have brought the spindle speed up, and increased the feed rate
[13:33:32] <alex4nder> I'm going to try running it at 10k sometime later today
[13:33:41] <FinboySlick> alex4nder: Tricky part for me is that I can't really run below 8k.
[13:33:45] <alex4nder> and hope nothing breaks
[13:33:56] <alex4nder> FinboySlick: what kind of feeds can your machine do?
[13:35:14] <alex4nder> I'd like to be able to do 60 IPM with aluminum on the taig
[13:35:14] <FinboySlick> alex4nder: It's pretty stiff and smooth (all bearings) so it can move fast, I'm just not experienced enough to push it much. I think I have it set at a max of 120ipm or somesuch. As I mentioned, haven't had time to use it in a while.
[13:35:22] <alex4nder> ah
[13:35:36] <FinboySlick> Hehe, I need to stiffen the floor though.
[13:35:36] <alex4nder> well from what I've seen with my mill, it really "likes" edge milling
[13:35:52] <alex4nder> hogging out stuff with it sucks
[13:36:06] <FinboySlick> Back and forth motion at those kinds of speed sort of resonates with the springyness of the floor and it a bit scary.
[13:36:10] <alex4nder> hah
[13:36:23] <alex4nder> FinboySlick: the taig is sitting in 180 lbs of concrete
[13:36:32] <alex4nder> it's a small machine
[13:37:02] <FinboySlick> alex4nder: Mine isn't very big either, but it's close to 800lbs with its stand.
[13:37:06] <FinboySlick> And not on concrete.
[13:37:38] <ReadError> FML
[13:37:40] <ReadError> i got the z axis
[13:37:44] <ReadError> how useless
[13:39:00] <FinboySlick> ReadError: Hehe, put it in a vise and make yourself a ghetto cnc drill press.
[13:39:05] <alex4nder> haha
[13:39:16] <alex4nder> ReadError: how was it sent?
[13:39:25] <ReadError> ups
[13:40:47] <jdhnc> so, you you can work to half-a-mil[l]
[13:41:09] <alex4nder> ReadError: how far away is it?
[13:41:14] <alex4nder> like, where was it left?
[13:42:43] <ReadError> ok ok ok cool maybe
[13:42:50] <ReadError> i called the places that shared the address
[13:42:56] <ReadError> found which biz it was sent to
[13:43:03] <ReadError> guys checking to see if its there
[13:43:09] <ReadError> 65 miles away :(
[13:43:33] * ReadError crosses fingers
[13:43:54] <Jymmm> tossed in crusher 5m ago
[13:44:02] <ReadError> :((((((((((
[13:44:09] <ReadError> have postive thoughts man
[13:44:15] <ReadError> my sanity rest on this
[13:44:23] <Jymmm> sold for $10 to the local recycler
[13:44:42] <Jymmm> wont show back up for another 3 months
[13:45:54] <FinboySlick> Jymmm: Don't be so mean. I'd be crying in if in his place right now.
[13:46:02] * FinboySlick patpats ReadError
[13:46:10] <Jymmm> FinboySlick: wuss
[13:46:17] <Connor> Why is everyone so insistent on getting Zero Backlash... as long as you have consistent and measurable backlash, you can compensate for it yes?
[13:46:39] <Jymmm> FinboySlick: the vendor could always reship
[13:46:49] <jdhnc> connor: hardware fix is better than sofwaree.
[13:47:16] <alex4nder> ReadError: just go pick it up yourself
[13:47:51] <ReadError> yea hes gonna make sure its there and call me back
[13:47:59] <ReadError> Jymmm: i ordered it 4/3/12 ;(
[13:48:04] <ReadError> ive already been waiting a long time
[13:48:16] <Connor> I have around .006" in the X, which is about what I had before the conversion.. I've yet to adjust the gibs or the nut.
[13:49:13] <jdhnc> Connor: if the SW compensation isn't exact or symmetrical, you get stacked up errors after dir changes.
[13:50:28] <djdelorie> jdhnc: if you specify symmetrical backlash, do you avoid the stackup ?
[13:50:58] <Connor> Yea. I'll tighten everything up and throw my DTI on it and measure it. I've been getting a "squeal" or creek at high speeds... even when manual sometimes.. I think I need to oil the ways or screw.. which I've done, but, maybe not in the correct place..
[13:51:44] <jdhnc> djdelorie: I don't know if you can specify +/- backlash compensation. I meant physical backlash
[13:51:55] <djdelorie> ah. Mine is symmetrical anyway
[13:52:09] <djdelorie> or at least "symmetrical enough"
[13:52:33] <jdhnc> I have mine set to 0.004 on one axis, but it doesn't measure the same
[13:53:37] <Connor> jdhnc: What do you mean ?
[13:53:39] <djdelorie> I put a dial indicator on it and jog +- 0.1" since my dial is 0.1" per rotation
[13:54:09] <jdhnc> that could be affected by scaling.
[13:54:42] <jdhnc> if you set the jog to 0.001" and hit the jog button. How many times do you have to jog before it moves 1thou (after swapping direction)
[13:54:48] <djdelorie> if I jog multiple times in the same direction, it's dead on
[13:55:09] <djdelorie> hmmm... didn't test that way
[13:55:19] <jdhnc> jog right 1inch. set up the indicator to zero, jog left .001 at a time, how many times do you have to jog
[13:55:56] <jdhnc> your test would just show that the lash was symmetrical
[13:56:00] <djdelorie> good idea, I'll test that next time I have time in the shop
[13:56:46] <Connor> okay, so, what relay can handle 10Amp at 90v ? I need 1 or 2 for Spindle Direction.. also would like to throw a fuse on the DC side, but, what do you use? PSU is 48v 12.5 amps
[13:58:32] <djdelorie> Connor: lots. Go to digikey, search for "power relay", select all "contact rating" 10A and higher, and all "switching voltage" 90v and higher, and a suitable coil voltage
[13:59:08] <Connor> most relays I find, always have 12v, 24v, 120v rating for the contacts..
[13:59:42] <Jymmm> contactor, any HVAC supply
[14:00:29] <djdelorie> digikey has plenty with 90VDC or higher ratings
[14:00:36] <Connor> My fear is, it's going to be a HUGE relay and not be able to fit it inside the existing speed control box.
[14:01:25] <djdelorie> http://search.digikey.com/us/en/products/G5LE-1%20DC5/Z1014-ND/280368 ?
[14:01:53] <djdelorie> smaller than that, you'd probably need a custom solid state relay
[14:03:05] <Connor> need DPDT but, that's not a bad size.
[14:04:07] <djdelorie> maybe what you really want is an H bridge?
[14:07:05] <ReadError> AWWWW YEA
[14:07:10] <ReadError> goin to go pick it up ;))))
[14:07:18] * ReadError is greatful for nice people
[14:07:25] <djdelorie> ReadError is gone...
[14:07:42] <alex4nder> nice
[14:08:11] <ReadError> out like a light bulb
[14:08:17] <ReadError> zoom zooom zoooommm
[14:08:25] * FinboySlick wonders if that was a J-Roc
[14:08:49] * Jymmm calls and has the ship it to NY, pickup in 5 minutes
[14:09:13] <Jymmm> ReadError: You have 4m40s to get there, annnnnd GO!
[14:12:14] * archivist has worn out feet from the long walk around the mach machine tool show
[14:14:49] <Thetawaves> pictures!
[14:16:26] <FinboySlick> Moving youtube pictures!
[14:16:44] <archivist> mostly too busy walking so I only took pics of an early sliding head lathe that was on the Tornos stand
[14:17:16] <archivist> rest of the images are stored inside rear of skull :)
[14:18:10] <archivist> The Ctitizen and Renishaw stands are upsetting....cannot afford the toys
[14:21:40] <A0Sheds> anybody seen JT-Shop lately?
[14:23:40] <Connor> Hey guys.. Question, Acceptable amount of marring on vice jaws?
[14:24:30] <archivist> depends
[14:24:36] <Connor> I did something stupid. I mounted a oldham coupler hub in the vise to tap it. I didn't realize the the tap was larger than the width of the tabs and it dug into the jaws a little.. not very much.. but, it's visable.
[14:25:03] <archivist> war wound
[14:25:08] <djdelorie> now you have a serrated chuck :-)
[14:25:38] <Connor> Well.. I can't tell if it's just a cut, or if it's dinged or raised the surface..
[14:25:38] <Jymmm> isn't that why they have replaceable jaws?
[14:25:42] <Connor> I can live with a cut..
[14:25:47] <djdelorie> if it bothers you, fill it with a suitable epoxy, file it flat, and move on...
[14:26:18] <A0Sheds> is there a ballscrew + stepper + drive kit for bridgeports?
[14:26:27] <A0Sheds> i can find all the parts
[14:26:40] <A0Sheds> I'm just looking for one stop shopping
[14:26:56] <Connor> I already put a gash into the table with a saw saw first few days of having it... was cutting some CRS mounted in the vise.. went about 1/16" into the table.. on one of the T-Slots
[14:28:08] <Connor> I'm getting OCD or Anial about things the older I get..
[14:28:19] <mazafaka> Vice jaws should not be marred too much and must squeeze and keep the detail as it is intended.
[14:29:05] <Connor> I looked on Shars for replacement jaws and didn't find any..
[14:29:09] <Connor> it's a 5" from Shars.
[14:29:34] <djdelorie> you own a mill, make your own jaws :-)
[14:29:50] <Connor> djdelorie: Umm.. Hardened ?
[14:29:54] <Jymmm> ok, who wants to take bets on how fast ReadError can go pick up his toy and be back AND if he gets a speeding ticket or not?
[14:30:02] <djdelorie> ok, you have to own fire too then :-)
[14:30:35] <Connor> and precision ground?
[14:31:43] <djdelorie> picky picky picky ;-)
[14:34:28] <mrsun> 3hmm, repraps, do they produce gcode for the extrusion stuff?
[14:34:36] <mrsun> or do they do their own system ? :)
[14:36:13] <A0Sheds> http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/tls/2956114591.html gorton mastermill , anybody familiar with them?
[14:37:00] <mrsun> looks almost like the one at my old work
[14:37:04] <mrsun> dont know the brand of that one tho
[14:37:13] <mrsun> head etc looks almost exactly the same
[14:37:19] <mrsun> the knee is a bit different
[14:37:51] <A0Sheds> looks like R8 tooling
[14:43:52] <olivius67> Hi there
[14:44:00] <Jymmm> Is there a specia name for the type of fittings that would allow you to put a spigot on the side of a bucket or pan? They have a curve to them to have a better seal.
[14:46:17] <jdhnc> a thick gasket.
[14:46:28] <olivius67> I have just installed LinuxCNC from the Live CD, however each time I start linuxcnc the program craches right after clicking "Ok" in the configuration selector
[14:46:53] <olivius67> Here is the log: http://pastebin.com/Dys8iJJJ
[14:46:54] <Jymmm> olivius67: start from terminal and it should show any error messages
[14:46:57] <A0Sheds> bulkhead fitting?
[14:47:29] <jdhnc> olivius: has it ever worked?
[14:47:52] <olivius67> jdhnc: never tried linuxcnc before
[14:48:07] <olivius67> i launch the program, select a config click ok, and then it crashes
[14:48:17] <jdhnc> weird hardware? apic disabled?
[14:48:18] <Jymmm> No, these actually have a curve built into them to things link round tanks, buckets, etc
[14:48:24] <Jymmm> olivius67: start from terminal and it should show any error messages
[14:48:36] <olivius67> Jymmm: trying now
[14:50:26] <jdhnc> RTAI[hal]: ERROR, LOCAL APIC CONFIGURED BUT NOT AVAILABLE/ENABLED.
[14:51:00] <olivius67> Jymmm: http://pastebin.com/i0tJk3wp
[14:51:37] <jdhnc> you are just running a sim?
[14:52:51] <olivius67> I don't know, I'm just picking a random config to have a look at the program
[14:53:16] <jdhnc> did you pick a random simulation only config?
[14:53:51] <olivius67> I picked sim->axis->axis
[14:54:11] <olivius67> but it seems to crash whatever config I choose
[14:59:04] <Jymmm> This is NOT what I was looking for, but pretty interesting... http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories/829/Uniseals
[15:01:18] <olivius67> Nobody can help?
[15:02:03] <jdhnc> oliv: in dmesg, is the apic error the first thing after you start linuxcnc/
[15:04:21] <olivius67> jdhnc: yes
[15:05:52] <jdhnc> apic disabled perhaps?
[15:06:06] <jdhnc> did you add any command line switches to the boot?
[15:06:43] <olivius67> nothing as far as I know, i just used the default install from the live CD
[15:07:09] <A0Sheds> anyone know a good source for a winder? For spooling wire or filament. Something with a DC servo and a sensor for tension.
[15:08:19] <olivius67> jdhnc: how can I check that APIC is working properly on my machine?
[15:10:11] <jdhnc> dmesg | less, look for apic info at the top
[15:10:34] <jdhnc> old computer?
[15:11:18] <andypugh> A0Sheds: I think tension == current with a DC servo, so you might be able to measure the tension indirectly.
[15:16:55] <olivius67> jdhnc: not that old, but not recent definitely => Dell Inspiron 8600
[15:17:08] <olivius67> checking dmesg...
[15:20:28] <A0Sheds> andypugh: yes you can, but you generally use an external sensor on a dancer or idler for finer sensing
[15:21:43] <andypugh> A sprung arm and an encoder is probably the easiest way to get the tension data into LinuxCNC, if that is the plan.
[15:21:48] <jdhnc> oliv: is it a laptop?
[15:22:19] <A0Sheds> I can build one, just looking for off the shelf
[15:23:05] <jdhnc> oliv: dmesg | grep -i apic
[15:23:20] <jdhnc> see if there is a line that says something like "not enabling local apic"
[15:23:36] <olivius67> http://pastebin.com/RwiVRsUM
[15:23:51] <A0Sheds> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntRhDa_1N6k take up winder for tape
[15:24:13] <jdhnc> oliv: add lapic to the boot params
[15:25:01] <olivius67> how do I do that?
[15:25:56] <jdhnc> reboot, when grub starts up hit escape, pick the edit menu, add lapic to the kernel line.
[15:26:14] <Jymmm> olivius67: is this a laptop?
[15:26:19] <olivius67> yes laptop
[15:26:20] <jdhnc> if that fixes it, you can make it perm. but I've never heard anything good about linuxcnc on a laptop
[15:27:20] <olivius67> ok, rebooting... brb
[15:27:56] <A0Sheds> Is anyone else using LinuxCNC to control machines outside of machine tools?
[15:29:48] <djdelorie> it occurs to me that a transformer winding tool would be trivial...
[15:30:49] <A0Sheds> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Computer-Programmable-Coil-Wire-Winding-Machine-New-Made-USA-/370558502130?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item56470204f2
[15:30:57] <A0Sheds> the price is just silly
[15:31:27] <djdelorie> 55 AWG though!
[15:31:48] <olivius67> jdhnc / Jymmm: http://pastebin.com/bnJzR69i
[15:31:53] <olivius67> it worked! :-)
[15:31:57] <olivius67> thx guys :-)
[15:32:46] <A0Sheds> http://www.ebay.com/itm/computer-cnc-automatic-coils-winder-winding-machine-US1-/170709522628?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27bf1498c4
[15:32:56] <A0Sheds> US $1,218.00
[15:34:38] <djdelorie> but a cheap stepper on linuxcnc, with suitable acceleration curves and some parameter tweaking, done!
[15:35:07] <djdelorie> tell hal it's 1 turn per inch, you can just type in the number of turns you want...
[15:36:17] <A0Sheds> yeah
[15:37:53] <A0Sheds> and add a second axis to control the position of the filament on the spool
[15:38:19] <djdelorie> yup, and a wire tension feedback, and now we're really getting into the overkill zone...
[15:38:28] <A0Sheds> 1 turn, is 1 thickness of the filament
[15:38:42] <A0Sheds> well this actually for an extruder
[15:38:49] <A0Sheds> so tension is critical
[15:40:00] <A0Sheds> it's closed loop back to the extruder motor
[15:42:10] <andypugh> I thought about using my mill to wind my brushless motor. I had an idea based round a bent tube free to rotate in the spindle, with the wire coil at the top of the spindle. In the end I did it by hand though.
[15:51:49] <A0Sheds> andypugh, how did that motor project go? Still in the works?
[15:52:13] <A0Sheds> I recall the PCB's getting reworked
[15:52:21] <A0Sheds> lost track after that
[16:01:56] <joe9> djdelorie: this is what the heekscad website says: I don't have time to administer HeeksCAD properly and I suggest for a more active project you look at FreeCAD.
[16:02:12] <joe9> djdelorie: is heekscad very different from heekscnc?
[16:02:15] <djdelorie> I couldn't get freecad working
[16:02:25] <djdelorie> heekscnc is heekscad plus some add-ons
[16:02:27] <alex4nder> freecad has some rockin' bugs
[16:02:47] <djdelorie> the add-ons come with heekscad, though.
[16:02:49] <Thetawaves> alex4nder, yeah, i can easily get it to crash
[16:02:52] <Thetawaves> but it does the job
[16:12:45] <ssi> anyone been able to build freecad on osx?
[16:20:52] <DJ9DJ> gn8
[16:28:31] <ReadPhone> got if woot
[16:28:41] <alex4nder> nice
[16:28:42] <alex4nder> congrats
[16:28:43] <ReadPhone> it
[16:28:49] <ReadPhone> ;)
[16:28:52] <ReadPhone> ty
[16:28:56] <djdelorie> and "it" is?
[16:29:12] <ReadPhone> i should get ups to refund my shipping and gas
[16:29:23] <ReadPhone> those bums
[16:29:25] <alex4nder> now the setup begins
[16:29:33] <djdelorie> only the sender can do that
[16:30:31] <ReadPhone> well they can get ups to refund them then me
[16:31:10] <alex4nder> I think I might pull the trigger on the CNC lathe conversion for my mill
[16:31:47] <alex4nder> so tempting
[16:31:54] <Loetmichel> THAT was a tight fit... and an ugly one... but i got the Industrial computer inside the base of the router ;-)
[16:32:00] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=13110
[16:32:01] <alex4nder> hah
[16:32:04] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=13113
[16:32:08] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=13116
[16:32:42] <alex4nder> that's quite a shoehorn
[16:32:53] <Loetmichel> have to do some beck panel with IEC C13 plug and sockets though
[16:33:49] <Loetmichel> alex4nder: yeah, 1nn ABS between the Buts of the Linear ways and the backplane PCB, and the SBC sits pressfit on the other side
[16:33:53] <Loetmichel> 1mm
[16:34:31] <djdelorie> 1nn == one nano-neener :-)
[16:35:06] <djdelorie> one three-billionth of a "NEENER NEENER NEENER" :-)
[16:36:05] <Loetmichel> NUts
[16:36:07] <Loetmichel> not buts
[16:36:13] <Loetmichel> ists late over here ;.-)
[16:36:19] <Loetmichel> (23:26)
[16:38:29] <djdelorie> that's not late, that's just millilate.
[16:45:15] <andypugh> ssi: Not any more, now that it seems to need a 64-bit processor.
[16:50:09] <ssi> andypugh: interesitng
[16:57:50] <elmo40> a wee bit off topic... but I was wondering if anyone has a colour laser working with Linux. I have had a few mono lasers work but never tried a colour one.
[16:58:32] <alex4nder> like, a printer?
[17:02:08] <djdelorie> all my laser printers are color, and they all work with linux...
[17:02:55] <djdelorie> then again, I specifically buy printers based on linux support, so I'm biased :-)
[17:07:00] <alex4nder> print is dead.
[17:08:15] <djdelorie> but it's really hard to spray-glue a PDF to wood
[17:09:02] <ReadError> hmmm
[17:09:11] <ReadError> so ups cant refund my shipping you think?
[17:09:18] <ReadError> the address on the box is right
[17:09:23] <ReadError> they digitized it for their system
[17:09:30] <ReadError> and still gave it to the wrong place
[17:09:31] <elmo40> djdelorie: well? what are the printers? ;)
[17:10:01] <djdelorie> ReadError: it's up to the sender to contact UPS and file a claim, that's all.
[17:10:34] <djdelorie> elmo40: these days, most of what I print ends up glued to a chunk of wood that I'm trying to cut a pattern out of
[17:10:48] <ReadError> USPS is saying my a2z order should be here tomorrow ;o
[17:10:56] <ReadError> why is all this stuff i got packed in oil
[17:11:05] <ReadError> i pulled the machinst square out
[17:11:09] <ReadError> got covered in it
[17:11:14] <ReadError> i realize its to prevent rust
[17:11:20] <djdelorie> shipping grease.
[17:11:25] <ReadError> but even these 1-2-3 blocks have it
[17:11:32] <ReadError> and they are aluminum i thought?
[17:14:05] <Jymmm> Never
[17:15:15] <ReadError> oh they would deform easy i guess
[17:15:33] <ReadError> yea they are pretty heavy so steel for sure
[17:16:50] <djdelorie> elmo40: HP color laserjet CP2025 is what I have now
[17:17:12] <elmo40> thnks. was looking at that one ;) Staples carries it
[17:17:49] <Jymmm> djdelorie: sucks up the toner?
[17:18:11] <djdelorie> not really
[17:18:24] <djdelorie> I spend a LOT less in toner than I ever did in ink
[17:18:27] <Jymmm> heh, I'l tak e that as a yes
[17:18:58] <djdelorie> if you want to take a "no" as a "yes", I won't stop you, but that's not what I said ;-)
[17:24:03] <Jymmm> toner != ink
[17:26:43] <djdelorie> of course toner isn't ink. What's your point?
[17:30:56] <ReadError> im still very confused about what to go with all these different motor configurations
[17:32:51] <alex4nder> ReadError: they give you the power to optimize different strengths of the stepper motor
[17:33:58] <djdelorie> ReadError: what do you have for a motor power supply? Volts and amps ?
[17:34:39] <djdelorie> and which driver module?
[17:34:57] <alex4nder> ReadError: my answer is half winding bipolar
[17:35:18] <alex4nder> ReadError: you'll have something like 200 oz/in.. you'll be within your current limit of the G540, and you'll optimize for speed
[17:35:28] <ReadError> 48V @ 12.5A
[17:36:57] <ReadError> ok that sounds good
[17:37:19] <ReadError> http://www.kelinginc.net/KL23H276-30-8B.pdf
[17:37:26] <ReadError> so i would use Blue/Red
[17:37:36] <ReadError> and black/brown?
[17:37:59] <ReadError> and not blue/green?
[17:40:18] <djdelorie> you could just try them all and see what works for you. Speed vs torque, etc.
[17:40:20] <alex4nder> blue/red and brown/black, and tuck away yellow/green and orange white
[17:40:38] <alex4nder> or you could do that
[17:40:57] <alex4nder> or you could do what joe9 is doing
[17:41:09] <ReadError> well you been doing this for a bit so i will go with that
[17:41:16] <ReadError> since they are a bit overpowered
[17:41:19] <alex4nder> right, but I don't have your exact motors
[17:41:23] <alex4nder> so keep that in mind
[17:41:38] <ReadError> understandable, you have the 172oz?
[17:41:44] <alex4nder> but even with your motors in half bipolar, they have a higher holding torque than my maximum
[17:41:52] <alex4nder> 166, but I think in half winding it's like really 120
[17:42:04] <djdelorie> 48v is about right per phase, I wouldn't do series, I'd try bipolar parallel first, you just won't be driving the motors to the max but you'll be using all available gecko power
[17:42:13] <ReadError> and the benefit to half winding is more control?
[17:42:24] <alex4nder> lower inductance
[17:42:36] <ReadError> more feedback?
[17:42:39] <alex4nder> no
[17:42:48] <alex4nder> it's an openloop system
[17:43:02] <alex4nder> and djdelorie is right, bipolar parallel would use "all" of your Gecko 540
[17:43:09] <alex4nder> but you'll also be able to fry an egg on it
[17:43:12] <ReadError> well i dont want to make it super hot
[17:43:21] <ReadError> i can always change it up later
[17:43:25] <alex4nder> I think it's pointless.. you don't need that holding torque
[17:43:30] <djdelorie> and since the voltage is the same, inductance is mostly irrelevent, you just hit max current sooner if you have more phases working
[17:43:40] <ReadError> why do the spec sheets say such a low voltage?
[17:43:55] * djdelorie wonders if driving only one coil results in off-center torque inside the motor...
[17:44:18] <djdelorie> ReadError: continuous voltage, not peak
[17:44:39] <djdelorie> if you have current control in your controller, you go by rated current instead
[17:44:46] <alex4nder> djdelorie: if it did, then unipolar would be a very common pathological case
[17:44:59] <djdelorie> good point
[17:46:05] <alex4nder> ReadError: you going to mock up your steppers on a bench before you install them?
[17:46:17] <ReadError> yup
[17:46:24] <alex4nder> good man
[17:46:35] * djdelorie thinks torque will depend on total current, not per-phase current... 3.5 amps through two phases is more torque than 3.0 amps through one, and you get there faster with the same voltage
[17:47:06] <djdelorie> putting the phases in parallel reduces the effective inductance the driver sees, so it hits peak current faster
[17:47:13] <ReadError> i was really hoping to do the build up inside this ATX case
[17:47:18] <ReadError> but if you think noise would be an issue
[17:47:22] <ReadError> i need to get a box
[17:47:38] <djdelorie> my EE profs would be happy I'm finally using all that crud they stuffed into my brain...
[17:48:26] <alex4nder> ReadError: test it
[17:48:36] <alex4nder> everyone of these CNC rigs is like a beautiful snowflake
[17:48:41] <djdelorie> ReadError: first time through, just put everything right on the table, wires everywhere, and see how it works
[17:49:24] <ReadError> yea but to mod the case i need to pull everything out and cut holes
[17:49:30] <ReadError> rather avoid it if it could cause issues
[17:49:56] <alex4nder> my plan is to keep the G540 as near to the steppers as possible
[17:50:04] <djdelorie> Like I told joe9, CUT STUFF! Worry about details later :-)
[17:50:14] <alex4nder> haha
[17:50:15] <alex4nder> yes
[17:50:18] <alex4nder> please cut some stuff
[17:50:23] <alex4nder> you got the manual handles right?
[17:50:30] <ReadError> nope
[17:50:32] <alex4nder> wut
[17:50:35] <ReadError> a2z kinda screwed me on that
[17:50:44] <ReadError> told me it would be a month
[17:50:47] <alex4nder> that sucks
[17:50:50] <ReadError> when they said on ebay 2 in stock ;(
[17:50:51] <alex4nder> is taig just out of them or something?
[17:50:53] <ReadError> yea
[17:50:56] <alex4nder> lame
[17:50:59] <ReadError> but
[17:51:03] <ReadError> i can put knobs on the steppers
[17:51:08] <alex4nder> you'd figure someone at taig would have a lathe and a mill or something
[17:51:14] <ReadError> lol
[17:51:16] <ReadError> yea
[17:52:11] <djdelorie> round bits of plywood? ;-)
[17:52:44] <ReadError> dont have a good way of installing a setscrew
[17:52:52] <ReadError> but radioshack sells knobs i think
[17:52:56] <ReadError> all with 1/4"
[17:56:57] <alex4nder> I like djdelorie wood idea
[17:57:04] <alex4nder> 's
[17:57:33] <ReadError> how would i get a setscrew not to strip out instantly?
[17:57:56] <ReadError> unless i cut a slot for a nut..
[17:57:59] <ReadError> which could work
[17:58:58] <alex4nder> actually ducttape and two vise grips would be rad too
[17:59:28] <Tom_itx> yeah, leave the vice grips on while it's running
[18:00:20] <alex4nder> separate your vices and your vises.
[18:00:27] <alex4nder> unless you have vice gripes.
[18:00:39] <alex4nder> in which case, you may be arrested.
[18:00:59] <r00t4rd3d> there is a popular song on the radio, sounds like 2 uk people , male/female, slower song, name it
[18:01:02] <Tom_itx> by the vice squad?
[18:01:14] <alex4nder> yes
[18:01:22] <alex4nder> r00t4rd3d: you're confusing us for an iPhone app
[18:01:37] <djdelorie> ReadError: drill a 7/32" hole and just screw it on, should be enough.
[18:02:04] <djdelorie> or cram it on, to the shaft I mean
[18:02:22] <ReadError> man
[18:02:25] <ReadError> screwed again
[18:02:39] <ReadError> only 1 db9 connector
[18:02:41] <ReadError> ;(
[18:02:46] <ReadError> i think i got some around here
[18:02:46] <djdelorie> or: get a stick. Drill a 1/4" hole in each end. Glue a dowel in one, cut a slot from the end to the hole on the other. A wood screw across the slot clamps it onto the shaft
[18:03:04] <alex4nder> and don't forget that the Radio Shack in Bedrock closes at sundown.
[18:03:23] <djdelorie> see http://www.delorie.com/photos/cnc/img_2530.html and note the screw head just to the left of the slot
[18:03:26] * Tom_itx gets barney and heads out
[18:04:00] <djdelorie> better photo: http://www.delorie.com/photos/cnc/img_2558.html
[18:04:26] <alex4nder> welcome to djdelorie's Amish tooltime
[18:04:34] <alex4nder> where everything is better when made out of wood
[18:05:06] <djdelorie> wood is cheap and easy to work with, and it bends without deforming, and the screws won't come out just because of vibration
[18:05:17] <alex4nder> I'm not hating
[18:05:25] <djdelorie> you could make a similar handle out of aluminum I suppose
[18:05:31] <alex4nder> I'm building two wooden cones right now, to help a ham radio friend build a tube amp
[18:05:34] <Tom_itx> granite
[18:05:36] <djdelorie> I just have a big wood shop to work with :-)
[18:05:41] <Tom_itx> polished
[18:05:51] <alex4nder> he could make granite epoxy handles
[18:05:58] <alex4nder> cast in aluminum foil molds
[18:06:08] <djdelorie> cast epoxy into foam molds :-)
[18:06:16] <alex4nder> cast concrete into foam molds
[18:06:22] <alex4nder> using mortar mix
[18:06:26] <djdelorie> harder to tap concrete for set screws
[18:06:32] <Tom_itx> or any type of mortar
[18:06:38] <Tom_itx> ask jt he probably has one
[18:06:38] <alex4nder> professionals poor inserts into the concrete
[18:06:55] <djdelorie> wax up some all-thread and cast it in place, then unscrew it?
[18:07:12] <alex4nder> you better be good with your mix
[18:07:22] <alex4nder> I was thinking more nuts
[18:07:27] <alex4nder> djdelorie: http://www.andern.org/alexander/images/taig/taig_in_concrete.jpg <- I showed you that right?
[18:07:45] <alex4nder> he stainless drain was glued to the foam mold
[18:07:46] <djdelorie> yup. I don't see any concrete handles on that, though... ;-)
[18:07:58] <djdelorie> cool
[18:08:34] <Tom_itx> how much is that size taig?
[18:08:41] <alex4nder> in dollars or pesos?
[18:08:44] <alex4nder> or
[18:08:49] <Tom_itx> quid
[18:08:54] <Tom_itx> shillings
[18:09:00] <Jymmm> Yen
[18:09:05] <alex4nder> something like $1200
[18:09:09] <djdelorie> kilograms
[18:09:15] <Jymmm> and the sink?
[18:09:18] <Tom_itx> doesn't look any bigger than my sherline
[18:09:18] <alex4nder> joe9 and ReadError are going through the price pain
[18:09:32] <alex4nder> Tom_itx: it's definitely beefier than the sherline
[18:09:38] <alex4nder> less elegant too
[18:09:43] <Tom_itx> if i had it to do over.....
[18:09:59] <alex4nder> sherline: variable speed DC motor.. taig: motor out of someone's A/C unit.
[18:10:04] <ReadError> http://deepgroove1.com/tagsherline/sherlinetaigcomparison.htm
[18:10:05] <Tom_itx> heh
[18:10:09] <ReadError> saw that and was sold
[18:10:24] <alex4nder> yah, but deepgroove is a taig dealer
[18:10:30] <Tom_itx> i've had mine a long time
[18:10:43] <alex4nder> ReadError: actually, that's a pretty legit comparison
[18:10:52] <alex4nder> Jymmm: I made the sink
[18:11:00] <alex4nder> with my own two hands
[18:11:04] <alex4nder> (and a lot of glue and foam)
[18:11:06] <Tom_itx> no feet?
[18:11:36] <Tom_itx> what's it weigh?
[18:11:41] <Jymmm> foam?
[18:11:56] <alex4nder> yes, the mold was made from foa
[18:11:56] <alex4nder> m
[18:12:14] <Jymmm> what material did you mold?
[18:12:23] <Tom_itx> that thing is way too clean
[18:12:29] <alex4nder> it's 3/4" aggregate concrete
[18:12:45] <alex4nder> just some 5000 PSI quikrete
[18:12:52] <Jymmm> alex4nder: and fiberglass wouldn't be eaiser/lighter?
[18:12:59] <alex4nder> fiberglass what?
[18:13:06] <Tom_itx> kevlar
[18:13:17] <alex4nder> make the basin out of fiberglass?
[18:13:18] <Jymmm> fabric
[18:13:21] <pfred1> Tom_itx what do you want it bulletproof?
[18:13:34] <Jymmm> alex4nder: yes
[18:13:39] <Tom_itx> pfred1 in case you forget to bolt something down
[18:13:44] <alex4nder> Jymmm: I already had a urethane one, and I thought it sucked
[18:13:52] <pfred1> one of what?
[18:13:54] <Jymmm> k
[18:13:57] <alex4nder> it would vibrate, and didn't provide decent mounting
[18:14:04] <Jymmm> alex4nder: ah ok
[18:14:05] <ReadError> http://www.charter-controls.com/uploads/G540_REV4_MANUAL_V2.pdf
[18:14:07] <Jymmm> pfred1: sink
[18:14:12] <ReadError> does it matter which is A+/A- ?
[18:14:20] <Tom_itx> of course
[18:14:33] <ReadError> figured
[18:14:33] <alex4nder> ReadError: you mean which half to use?
[18:14:37] <ReadError> but they dont specify
[18:14:43] <ReadError> well the motors, have A+/A-
[18:14:46] <djdelorie> if you get it wrong, it just turns the other way
[18:14:50] <ReadError> the g540 just has A and B
[18:15:08] <Tom_itx> better return the drive for one that has A and B then
[18:15:11] <ReadError> so i can use 9/7 for +
[18:15:11] <alex4nder> ReadError: you looking at the datasheet?
[18:15:13] <pfred1> fiberglass sinks are a little chinzy
[18:15:22] <ReadError> and 8/6 for -
[18:15:38] <ReadError> ya i got both open
[18:15:39] * pfred1 has a cast iron kitchen sink a kohler
[18:15:40] <alex4nder> ReadError: look at the picture on the G540.. see the coil?
[18:15:44] <ReadError> yup
[18:16:06] <alex4nder> ReadError: wire blue and red to one "coil", and brown black to the other "coil"
[18:16:15] <pfred1> A+/A- is bipolar right?
[18:16:16] <alex4nder> make them consistent
[18:16:26] <ReadError> ah so long as i use the same for both
[18:16:33] <ReadError> i should be good, just keep them consistent
[18:16:36] <Tom_itx> why the 540 over a handfull of 203v
[18:16:37] <ReadError> and i might have to reverseit
[18:16:42] <pfred1> isn't there a way to wire a unipolar motor half coil so it runs in bipolar mode?
[18:16:46] <alex4nder> pfred1: it's the "top" and "button" of the unipolar wiring.. he only needs half
[18:17:03] <alex4nder> so he needs A+ and Red
[18:17:22] <alex4nder> because he's not doing a 'common'
[18:17:29] * djdelorie wonders if my three-phase drive can drive a stepper...
[18:17:41] <pfred1> if it is a 3 phase motor
[18:17:50] <pfred1> 2 and 5 are the most common
[18:17:55] <Jymmm> djdelorie: Yes, but only 1/3rd of the way
[18:18:06] <djdelorie> I mean, one output is common, the other two go to a bipolar setup
[18:18:20] <pfred1> bipolar is only 4 leads
[18:18:22] <djdelorie> it should work as long as you don't need one coil full + while the other way is full - at the same time
[18:18:23] <pfred1> 2 coils
[18:18:37] <pfred1> I guess yo ucould connect 2 leads together
[18:18:39] <ReadError> im doing bipolar half winding
[18:18:43] <djdelorie> pfred: right, tie two together to one of the UVW outputs
[18:18:47] <pfred1> but I don't know if the motor would actually run like that
[18:18:49] <ReadError> http://www.kelinginc.net/KL23H276-30-8B.pdf
[18:18:54] <djdelorie> the other side of each coil goes to each of the other two putputs
[18:19:02] <ReadError> so blue/red & brown/black
[18:19:09] <pfred1> djdelorie unipolar motors have a center tap common
[18:19:37] <pfred1> and their coils are arranged so those leads are common
[18:19:50] <djdelorie> pfred1: I mean tie one end of the A coils to one end of the B coils, so there are a TOTAL of three wires going to the stepper
[18:20:21] <pfred1> well surplus stepper motors are easy enough to come by
[18:21:01] <pfred1> I have one that runs on 120C AC direct but you have to phase one coil with a capacitor
[18:21:32] <pfred1> but it only runs at one speed
[18:21:38] <Tom_itx> is going from a 24v stepper setup to a 45v setup with 3 gecko's worth the expense in performance gain?
[18:21:52] <pfred1> Tom_itx I would imagine
[18:21:52] <djdelorie> http://www.delorie.com/tmp/stepper-3wire.png
[18:22:04] <pfred1> Tom_itx or gecko has a poor business model
[18:22:25] <Tom_itx> but they currently work with the 24v setup
[18:22:29] <pfred1> no gecko drives are nice
[18:22:32] * djdelorie is called to food...
[18:22:42] <pfred1> remember you need the bigger PSU too
[18:22:47] <Tom_itx> i'm just wondering if the benefit is worth all that
[18:22:47] <pfred1> so it isn't just the drives
[18:23:03] <Tom_itx> bigger psu?
[18:23:06] <Tom_itx> i'm making one
[18:23:08] <pfred1> I doubt a gecko drive @ 24V is any better than a lot of other drives
[18:23:39] <pfred1> but yeah you have to decide if you even need the performance gain
[18:23:39] <Tom_itx> but it won't be at 24v
[18:23:57] <pfred1> and gecko is hardly the only driver manufacturer either
[18:23:58] <Tom_itx> if i could equate it to ipm i might be able to
[18:24:16] <pfred1> really the place to drop the coin is in your leads
[18:24:25] <pfred1> that is where you're going to get the most bang
[18:25:06] <pfred1> ballscrews are so much better than anything else it isn't even funny
[18:25:37] <pfred1> best acme is 40% effeciency ballscrews are 90%
[18:25:38] <Jymmm> magnetic rils
[18:25:41] <Jymmm> rails
[18:25:43] * alex4nder sets his mill on fire.
[18:25:56] <pfred1> so right there you more than double your performance
[18:26:32] <Tom_itx> Jymmmmmmmm, magnetic rails don't do so well around chips
[18:27:10] <pfred1> Tom_itx what kind of mill do you have?
[18:27:27] <Tom_itx> sherline
[18:27:31] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: All I do is aluminum/plastic/wood, so it's all good
[18:27:42] <Tom_itx> but the idea is to get stuff i can use on a larger one
[18:27:50] <pfred1> the downside to ballscrews on a mill is you can't use them manually anymore
[18:28:03] <Tom_itx> i don't anyway
[18:28:11] <pfred1> well for some it is an issue
[18:28:30] <pfred1> that and they aren't easily transferrable to other equipment either
[18:30:15] <pfred1> people use oversized steppers to overcome other mechanical deficiencies but if you had a better mechincal setup you wouldn't need the additional power
[18:31:56] <pfred1> Tom_itx there is a pdf file with the formulas in it to figure out the forces generated with different lead screws and motors I found helpful for thinking everything through
[18:32:48] <pfred1> but higher voltage does give you faster rapids
[18:34:33] <ReadError> whew\
[18:34:42] <ReadError> got scared, found 2 extra male db9
[18:34:48] <ReadError> i have like 5 female ones
[18:52:09] <jdhnc> extra females are better.
[18:56:05] <ReadError> always
[18:56:28] <pfred1> I wasn't aware that there was any such thing
[18:57:22] <ReadError> heh
[18:57:24] <ReadError> now
[18:57:33] <ReadError> to figure out what resistor i need
[18:58:08] <ReadError> same as parallel?
[19:02:48] <pfred1> ReadError current sense resistor?
[19:05:19] <ReadError> yea
[19:05:24] <ReadError> well the configuration im using
[19:05:28] <ReadError> isnt in the spec sheet
[19:05:39] <ReadError> so i dont know what to use for the resistance
[19:14:16] <pfred1> whoah not in the data you say?
[19:17:12] <ReadError> http://www.kelinginc.net/KL23H276-30-8B.pdf
[19:17:38] <ReadError> see, i used blue/red & brown/black
[19:17:52] <ReadError> for what i hope is bipolar half winding
[19:18:44] <pfred1> are your motors high inductance?
[19:19:19] <ReadError> http://i.imgur.com/mWbRr.jpg <-- me
[19:19:58] <pfred1> well the main reason to go half winding is to reduce resistance and inductance
[19:20:23] <pfred1> it nets you some top end performance at a loss of lower end
[19:20:35] <ReadError> well the motors are a bit strong
[19:20:36] <Jymmm> parallel would be the same effect
[19:20:39] <ReadError> 280oz
[19:21:03] <ReadError> and the mill is like 20TPI
[19:21:06] <pfred1> no half is different than parallel
[19:21:46] <ReadError> so i have no idea what to use for the resistance value
[19:22:03] <Jymmm> 1 / (1/x + 1/y)
[19:22:08] <pfred1> if you're only using half your coils you have to figure for half current
[19:22:32] <ReadError> so 2.1A
[19:22:36] <pfred1> makes sense doesn't it?
[19:23:52] <pfred1> hey why don't you just gear them?
[19:24:02] <pfred1> that way you use all your motor and get higher speed?
[19:24:31] <ReadError> my mill is nema23 ready
[19:24:36] <ReadError> im not ready for modding it ;)
[19:24:48] <pfred1> so make it timing belt ready
[19:24:55] <ReadError> ;(
[19:25:01] <ReadError> i want to get up and running 1st heh
[19:25:09] <djdelorie> CUT STUFF! :-)
[19:25:11] <pfred1> it is your best solution though not the easiest
[19:25:44] <pfred1> well something to think about down the road
[19:25:53] <pfred1> remember you can always trade torque for speed though
[19:26:51] <ReadError> ya but since the TPI is pretty high
[19:26:57] <ReadError> i dont think ide need tooo much torque
[19:27:16] <pfred1> you need what you need
[19:28:41] * djdelorie still thinks parallel is your best bet
[19:28:53] <pfred1> it is
[19:29:12] <pfred1> but parallel is the most current costly too
[19:29:31] <pfred1> you don't get nuthing for nuthing
[19:30:00] <djdelorie> parallel lets him max out his G540 but still has the fastest speed
[19:30:14] <pfred1> yup
[19:30:22] <ReadError> hmmmm
[19:30:40] <pfred1> although if you have a high winding motor one really inductive they tend to resonate lower
[19:30:58] <pfred1> see some stepper motors are just built to run faster
[19:31:10] <pfred1> they are low ohms and low inductance and high amps
[19:31:22] <pfred1> they're the fastest running stepper motors going
[19:31:39] <pfred1> there is another kind that has more low end torque but can't do the high Rs
[19:32:02] <pfred1> those run better if you half winding them at higher speeds
[19:32:37] <pfred1> but you lose your bottem end torque adtanvates if yo udo that ot them
[19:32:46] <ReadError> so, if i keep it how it is
[19:33:01] <ReadError> ide need 2.1A, or ~2.1k resistor
[19:33:36] <pfred1> ReadError what is the resistance and uH of your motors?
[19:34:09] <ReadError> well im not sure since i got a custom config
[19:34:20] <pfred1> it should be printed right on them
[19:34:25] <pfred1> right on the label
[19:34:38] <ReadError> nothing but the part # on mine
[19:34:49] <pfred1> oh then the manufacturer should have the specs
[19:35:06] <ReadError> yea but not for bipolar half winding
[19:35:13] <ReadError> unless i can assume its just 1/2 of parallel
[19:35:18] <pfred1> doesn't matter yo ucompare apples ot apples
[19:35:26] <djdelorie> should be the same as unipolar
[19:35:47] <pfred1> you can wire 8 lead motors any which way
[19:36:18] <pfred1> half bipolar unipolar series or parallel
[19:36:44] <ReadError> oh i didnt realize it was the same as unipolar
[19:36:58] <pfred1> yeah yo ucan turn an 8 lead motor into a unipolar
[19:37:13] <pfred1> but half bipolar isn't unipolar
[19:37:30] <pfred1> because you're only using half the coils
[19:37:38] <djdelorie> it's not the same layout, but with unipolar, you're only driving one coil at a time
[19:38:16] <pfred1> wouldn't it depend on what kind of sequencing you were using?
[19:38:35] <pfred1> some step sequences unipolar drive mor than one coil at a time
[19:39:05] <pfred1> I think full step is the only one that doesn't but it has been a while since I've studied any charts
[19:39:10] <djdelorie> I meant the inductance and resistance listed on the spec should be the same as unipolar
[19:39:16] <pfred1> ah OK yes
[19:39:19] <pfred1> a coil is a coil
[19:39:40] <ReadError> what is this "COM" the spec sheet speaks of?
[19:39:57] <pfred1> the common unipolar leads?
[19:39:58] <ReadError> i figured it was ground
[19:40:01] <ReadError> oh ok
[19:40:14] <pfred1> which don't have to be ground
[19:40:29] <pfred1> usually they aren't in fact
[19:40:41] <pfred1> they usually go to your high
[19:41:31] <pfred1> it depends on the driver but most semicondustors seem to like to sink rather than source current
[19:41:44] <pfred1> so it is easier to switch the ground
[19:41:49] <ReadError> i should just go parallel
[19:41:53] <ReadError> this would be much easier hehe
[19:42:00] <pfred1> it is the most performance
[19:42:40] <pfred1> other wiring schemes are only used in rare cases
[19:43:02] <pfred1> like if you're making a conveyor belt or something
[19:43:59] <pfred1> radar dish for your model railroad setup
[19:44:19] <pfred1> Christmas anamatronics ..
[19:47:42] <joe9> in the gcode G46 (tool offset code) the H or D value stores the offset of the tool. How is that offset entered in linuxcnc?
[19:47:50] <joe9> or, is there a command to set that value?
[19:49:41] <joe9> also the G41 or G42 codes
[19:50:51] <Jymmm> animatronics? where?
[19:51:32] * pfred1 is fascinated by blinkers
[19:51:43] <Jymmm> turn?
[19:51:49] <pfred1> I spent a week once just surfing pages of blinker sites
[19:52:01] <pfred1> no people who go way over the top with christmas lights
[19:52:02] <Jymmm> pfred1: ???
[19:52:09] <Jymmm> oh, heh
[19:52:21] <pfred1> they have websites
[19:52:33] <djdelorie> pfred1: http://www.delorie.com/electronics/usb-gpio/led-raster-1.jpg
[19:52:38] <djdelorie> have some blinky lights :-)
[19:52:43] <Jymmm> My cousin just has limos go down her street
[19:52:50] <pfred1> djdelorie no man these people like they have 400 amp services installed
[19:53:04] <pfred1> they are waaaay out there
[19:53:20] <pfred1> rooms dedicated to the controls
[19:53:33] <Jymmm> what wrong with that?
[19:53:37] <pfred1> nothing
[19:53:41] <Jymmm> =)
[19:53:50] <pfred1> except that yo ucen see their properties from space
[19:54:11] <Jymmm> sounds good to me
[19:54:37] <pfred1> I have to admit when I first discovered it I couldn't get enough of it
[19:54:46] <Jymmm> heh
[19:54:48] <pfred1> it was much like watching a train wreck i couldn't pull myself away
[19:54:54] <MattyMatt> one thing I don't understand about 6 wire steppers. if they are wired N-S-N so they work on a unipolar motor, then can you wire them as bipolar parallel by joining the 2 ends of the coil?
[19:55:07] <MattyMatt> ^on a unipolar driver
[19:55:25] <pfred1> because of the coil arrangement yo ucan only use them in half coil bipolar I think it is
[19:55:27] <djdelorie> no because the two coils' fields would cancel each other out
[19:56:24] <MattyMatt> ah so the 2 halves are 180 phase, so in a unipolar they're never both active at the same time?
[19:56:46] <djdelorie> right, you energize one or the other depending on which way you want the field
[19:57:01] <MattyMatt> got it
[19:57:38] <pfred1> it was a whole ago I built it let me see how the sequencer works on my half stepping driver
[19:58:35] <MattyMatt> pfred you can use the full coil too, which gives the equiv of bipolar serial. that works but the impedence is quite high
[19:59:11] <Jymmm> pfred1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zjXr6Qnpcw
[19:59:16] <MattyMatt> it usually makes it hard to get high speed on 12V, which is what repraps are usually trying to do
[19:59:31] <pfred1> I thought 1-2 phase stepping was 2 coils at once
[20:00:02] <MattyMatt> it is if you use the full coil and ignore the common
[20:00:07] <pfred1> ful step sequencing sucks
[20:00:41] <pfred1> I can never get motors to run much more than 226 RPM in full step mode
[20:00:46] <pfred1> before they resonate out
[20:01:23] <MattyMatt> I think full step sequencing these days means "just the half steps" so you get sqrt(2) more torque for 2x the power
[20:01:23] <pfred1> it drove me nuts the first drivers I made
[20:01:45] <pfred1> I was like how do you make these things go fast?
[20:02:13] <pfred1> it wasn't until I made a half step sequencer that i saw some real speed
[20:02:53] <ReadError> joe9
[20:03:09] <ReadError> did you do anything special on the db9s?
[20:03:15] <pfred1> supposedly there are resonance sensors yo ucan add to full step drivers
[20:03:18] <ReadError> or just make sure the + is consistent
[20:03:37] <ReadError> like pin 9 = black/white
[20:03:45] <ReadError> pin 7 = red/green
[20:04:25] <MattyMatt> I've been getting around 300rpm max on my mill for 2 years, and it's all down to the crappy opto-isolators :p with them shorted I can get higher speed and use 1/16 steps
[20:04:52] <pfred1> this is a nice page about stepper motors http://www.orientalmotor.com/technology/articles/step-motor-basics.html
[20:05:32] <pfred1> it even shows how steppers can run better under load than free
[20:05:53] <pfred1> man stepper motors are like is someone with no common sense at all designed a motor they're completely backwards
[20:06:28] <joe9> ReadError: check the motor specs and the g540 specs.
[20:06:41] <ReadError> yea they are right
[20:06:46] <joe9> ReadError: nothing special other than using a 3ft extra wire
[20:07:00] <ReadError> but the g540 doesnt specify which pin is + & -
[20:07:10] <ReadError> but i assume as long as i have them the same it should be ok
[20:07:13] <pfred1> bipolar?
[20:07:16] <ReadError> yea
[20:07:16] <djdelorie> for the stepper drives?
[20:07:24] <joe9> and, my resistor was closer to 4K, bipolar parallel.
[20:07:24] <pfred1> well bipolar it switches
[20:07:33] <ReadError> http://www.charter-controls.com/uploads/G540_REV4_MANUAL_V2.pdf
[20:07:37] <pfred1> that is what makes it bipolar
[20:07:51] <ReadError> see the g540 doesnt denote which side is which on the A/B
[20:07:56] <MattyMatt> nice article pfred1. /me shares w reprappers. I'm trying to convince them of the benefits of 5 phase steppers already :) this supports my manifesto
[20:08:06] <pfred1> it is usually A and A prime and B and B prime
[20:08:14] <joe9> make sure that you check the pins and wires again and again.
[20:08:18] <djdelorie> it shouldn't matter which way you wire up the stepper wires for each coil; the stepper just runs in the other direction
[20:08:21] <pfred1> but if you mess up you switch one
[20:08:24] <joe9> I re-did those connections
[20:08:37] <ReadError> which motors did you go with?
[20:08:39] <pfred1> then your motor may run in reverse but it'll run
[20:09:20] <pfred1> djdelorie yeah if you "mess up" either it stalls or runs in reverse
[20:10:09] <ReadError> it says if its above 3.5, a resistor would not be necessary
[20:10:13] <pfred1> well universal motors are kind of tricky to get everything sorted out with them
[20:10:22] <ReadError> and my motors in parallel are 4.2A
[20:10:37] <djdelorie> if you wire them in parallel, they can take 4.2 amps, more than 3.5, so yeah, no resistor needed
[20:10:46] <ReadError> oh crap
[20:10:50] <ReadError> i hope thats the MAX
[20:10:56] <ReadError> since my PSU is only 12.5A
[20:11:03] <pfred1> the driver is only going to put out what it puts out
[20:11:20] <djdelorie> the geckos are current-limiting, right?
[20:11:24] <pfred1> of course
[20:11:49] <pfred1> mariss deals with lots of idiots so he has designed his drivers accordingly
[20:12:00] <joe9> what djdelorie says is correct about the "no resistor". but, I read somewhere that adding one is a good idea.
[20:12:17] <ReadError> so your are 4A motors?
[20:12:17] <pfred1> ReadError just obey this one rule never ever disconnect a coil wire of your motor from the drive while the drive is powered
[20:12:29] <joe9> ReadError: i have the same motors that you have.
[20:12:36] <ReadError> oh really lol
[20:12:41] <pfred1> seriously
[20:12:52] <djdelorie> technology is a constant race between engineers making their stuff more idiot-proof, and the universe making better idiots...
[20:12:54] <pfred1> makes sure the drive is completely disconnected from power
[20:12:55] <ReadError> what PSU joe9?
[20:13:28] <pfred1> djdelorie most people that buy geckos shouldn't even change lightbulbs
[20:13:42] <ReadError> aww ;(
[20:13:48] <ReadError> you are probably right
[20:13:49] <pfred1> I don't know how mariss deals with it but he does
[20:14:31] <joe9> i went with a toroidal. it is pretty solid. barely heats up.
[20:14:35] <pfred1> his site is a wealth of info for hooking steppers up too
[20:14:59] <pfred1> joe9 a wise choice
[20:15:11] <pfred1> expensive and not very flexible but solid
[20:15:36] <joe9> pfred1: it was recommended by the good folks on this channel. probably you, too.
[20:15:52] <pfred1> and you have a bridge and a filter cap right?
[20:16:14] <pfred1> 3 parts bang done
[20:16:46] <djdelorie> my motor supply is toroidal too
[20:16:55] <djdelorie> bridge, caps, fuse, done.
[20:17:06] <pfred1> yeah sometime in the far flung future when the filter cap goes replace it abd be back in business
[20:17:08] <MattyMatt> I got a nice 9A 25V toroidal cheap but thought that meant peak-to-peak not RMS so now I need a cheap variac in front of it :p
[20:17:39] <djdelorie> nah, just let the controller do current limiting :-)
[20:17:47] <pfred1> yeah after yo urectify and filter a transformer you get higher V
[20:18:14] <djdelorie> yup. Mine is 84 VAC but 120 VDC
[20:18:37] <pfred1> that'll curl your hair
[20:19:12] <pfred1> I use a transformer I scrapped out of a PDP 11/34
[20:19:22] <djdelorie> I try to avoid letting my hair get that close to it when it's on :-)
[20:19:33] <pfred1> I ganged up the coils for the 5 volt rails
[20:19:45] <pfred1> they were 12.5 VAC each?
[20:19:53] <djdelorie> I did build a switching power supply but it was audibly noisy
[20:19:57] <MattyMatt> I'm tempted to tap my output coils
[20:20:35] <djdelorie> MattyMatt: you should be getting about 40 VDC, right?
[20:20:37] <pfred1> djdelorie yeah with your setup if your state ever decides to put in an old sparky you can lend them the hardware
[20:20:45] <joe9> pfred1: i think the filter caps and bridge are part of the psu. www.antekinc.com/details.php?p=185
[20:20:45] <MattyMatt> not highly tempted tho. I don't want to risk ruining it
[20:21:02] <pfred1> joe9 oh you bought a complete kit?
[20:22:00] <MattyMatt> estimated 38V, but the caps I got for it are 35V rated, and my drivers are TB6560. they turn into anti-personnel devices if you get near the 36V rating
[20:22:08] <pfred1> joe9 an unregulated transformer power supply is pretty easy to make
[20:22:23] <pfred1> it is 2 pairs of connections
[20:23:08] <pfred1> MattyMatt I run mine at 24V so far so good here
[20:23:30] <MattyMatt> I've seen several pics of exploded TB6560s, generally all on the same board I've got :p
[20:23:50] <MattyMatt> pfred1 yeah that was my target
[20:23:55] <djdelorie> MattyMatt: is it center tapped?
[20:24:00] <MattyMatt> nope
[20:24:02] <pfred1> MattyMatt this is what I run mine off of I think it can take 45V input? http://www.instructables.com/id/300-Watt-Linear-Power-Supply/
[20:24:03] <MattyMatt> primary is
[20:24:23] <joe9> pfred1: http://www.antekinc.com/pdf/PS-4N48R.pdf
[20:24:24] <pfred1> and it'll out anything down to 2.5V
[20:24:30] <MattyMatt> primary is split, so I could double the output, but not halve it
[20:24:30] <joe9> it is unregulated.
[20:24:44] <joe9> pfred1: does it have to be regulated?
[20:24:56] <pfred1> joe9 no your drivers do that
[20:25:31] <pfred1> joe9 pretty neat unit
[20:26:40] <joe9> i think it was a good buy. thanks to the folks here.
[20:26:55] <pfred1> it should last you a long time
[20:27:36] <pfred1> what brand are those big black caps?
[20:27:59] <joe9> pfred1: don't know. haven't checked them.
[20:28:13] <pfred1> I can't tell for sure but they look like nice ones to me
[20:29:02] <joe9> i cannot tell either. the brand seems hidden.
[20:29:25] <pfred1> if they ever give you any troubles get some Spragues and it'll outlive you
[20:29:48] <joe9> ok, thanks.
[20:30:07] <pfred1> well any japanese cap would be a good choice too
[20:30:14] <Jymmm> They look like this to me... http://i54.tinypic.com/zloxg.jpg
[20:30:25] <pfred1> in industry regular maintanence is to change caps after 5 years of service
[20:31:32] <A0Sheds> oh, neat they have a spare inside for backup
[20:31:34] <pfred1> Jymmm hey at least the caps inside are rubycons
[20:31:42] <jdhnc> pfred1: what industry is that?
[20:31:52] <pfred1> jdhnc any
[20:32:02] <pfred1> where the equipment is worth keeping
[20:32:33] <ReadError> so your PSU is 8A joe9 ?
[20:32:35] <jdhnc> I still have two pdp 11/73's running with their orignal PS's
[20:32:41] <jdhnc> 24x7
[20:32:41] <pfred1> high end electronics recapping is maintenence
[20:32:56] <joe9> not sure, 7A maybe.
[20:33:14] <ReadError> hmmm so i should be okay with 12.5 in parallel then i hope
[20:33:19] <joe9> ReadError: 8A, yes.
[20:34:24] <pfred1> jdhnc it is a good thing they oversized the caps in it then
[20:34:53] <jdhnc> yeah, old DEC power supplies (and cases) are amazing
[20:35:19] <pfred1> I scrapped an 11/34 here i use the stuff out of it but I don't expect it to be brand new
[20:36:28] <alex4nder> yoh
[20:37:08] <ReadError> yo
[20:37:11] <jdhnc> PCW?
[20:37:17] <ReadError> alex4nder, i couldnt figure out the math on that custom setup
[20:37:25] <ReadError> so i put them in parallel ;/
[20:37:34] <alex4nder> the math?
[20:37:38] <ReadError> yea
[20:37:41] <alex4nder> there's no math
[20:37:45] <ReadError> to figure out what resistor i need
[20:37:55] <alex4nder> it's just the unipolar current
[20:37:56] <ReadError> i wasnt sure if it was just 1/2 parallel
[20:38:01] <ReadError> oh ok
[20:38:06] <ReadError> i can go back then
[20:38:07] <alex4nder> 3 amps
[20:38:16] <ReadError> same impedance ?
[20:38:25] <ReadError> or inductance
[20:38:30] <alex4nder> it's the unipolar inductance
[20:38:31] <ReadError> sorry im fried its been a long day
[20:38:43] <alex4nder> if you wired it parallel, it'll work
[20:38:49] <alex4nder> I mean, you can do all your tests and ish
[20:38:57] <ReadError> yea but i dont want to burn up anything
[20:40:49] <alex4nder> you won't kill anything
[20:40:54] <alex4nder> I doubt the G540 will let you
[20:41:30] <ReadError> alex4nder, it took you 4 hours to assemble?
[20:41:35] <ReadError> (the taig)
[20:41:38] <alex4nder> yup
[20:41:49] <ReadError> cool i found some youtube vid on it
[20:41:53] <ReadError> going to watch that first
[21:04:07] <PCW> jdhnc here
[21:04:57] <ReadError> inside of my taig box stinks
[21:19:51] <jdhnc> PCW: is there anything special about the 7i43/7i47 bitfile, or is it just like the others, but different pin assignments and max enc/step/pwm?
[21:20:42] <PCW> Just that the pinout matches the 7I47
[21:21:09] <jdhnc> I changed the fpga size in the -4's xml file and pncconf seemed to generate a decent hal. It put everything I need on port 4
[21:22:09] <PCW> (of course there are many possible 7I47 pinouts with PWM/stepgen/sserial/UART/encoder/SSI/BISS options)
[21:22:32] <PCW> SPI 3pwm etc etc
[21:23:37] <jdhnc> someday maybe. This should be all I need for this machine. Thanks for the assitance and I'll try to leave you alone, for a while :)
[21:23:38] <PCW> but the standard SVST 7I47 pinout is the same for all (50 pin I/O) FPGA cards
[21:24:09] <PCW> and the -2 is identical to the -4 config
[21:25:03] <PCW> if in doubt of a pinout, remove all daughtercards start LinuxCNC and then check the pinout in dmesg
[21:27:20] <jdhnc> dmesg says p4-41 for pwmgen0. Is that the 7i47 pin or the 7i43 pin?
[21:27:41] <PCW> 7I43
[21:27:52] <jdhnc> and the 7i47 has termination jumpers, all set to on. Should they be off for stepgen/pwmgen/encoder?
[21:28:23] <PCW> The driver has no idea whats connected to the FPGA, only the FPGA card pins
[21:29:02] <jdhnc> <PCW> if in doubt of a pinout, remove all daughtercards start LinuxCNC and
[21:29:18] <jdhnc> why remove the daughtercard for that?
[21:29:22] <Jymmm> do a lil dance!
[21:29:25] <PCW> they are for inputs only so do not affect PWM/STEPGENS other outputs
[21:29:50] <PCW> termination that is
[21:31:13] <PCW> I guess you could disable all functions but you dont want a conflict (daughterboard output fighting FPGA output)
[21:31:32] <jdhnc> oh, to check the actual signals, not just the config?
[21:31:37] <PCW> (diable by (stepgens=0 pwmgens=o etc)
[21:32:32] <jdhnc> so, lastly ( I hope). How do I map the 7i43 pins (say P4-41) to the 7i47pins... 1-1?
[21:33:05] <PCW> no if you load a config the stepgen and pwmgen and other outputs will get enabled by the driver and may conflict if the config is not for the right daughtercard
[21:36:10] <PCW> well p4-41 is going to connect to 7I47 pin 41 which page 4 of the 7I47manual says is TX0
[21:36:56] <jdhnc> oh, I missed that just looking at P2,3,4
[21:37:30] <PCW> which is brought out to 7I47 terminal block P4 (pins 19 and 20)
[21:37:40] <jdhnc> so I shoudl be able to scope P4-19/20 and see the pwm
[21:39:08] <jdhnc> or 19-21
[21:39:11] <PCW> Yep if the watchdog is happy and some pwm value is set
[21:41:26] <PCW> on 7I47 P4, 19 is TX0 20 is /TX0 (true and inverted PWM with this config)and 21 is GND
[21:51:11] <djdelorie> sweet! Took apart an old "bad" cdrom drive, found a tiny 12v bipolar stepper and a tiny 12v BLDC motor with hall sensors :-)
[21:51:39] <jdhnc> get a bluray next time, you get a nice laser too
[21:52:11] <djdelorie> none of my blurays are already broken yet :-)
[21:52:34] <jdhnc> I only have one afaik
[21:52:47] * ReadError wonders why they call it bluray when the laser is purple...
[21:52:54] <jdhnc> I have a HD-dvd somewhere, wonder if they have more power than normal ones
[21:53:03] <djdelorie> or "ultraviolet" with it's just data
[22:08:42] <pfred1> I've heard of people making cutters out of lasers out of CD burners
[22:09:54] <djdelorie> a couple cdrom drives and you've got enough parts for a tiny milling machine...
[22:10:35] <pfred1> I think it has been done
[22:10:43] <djdelorie> yeah, I know
[22:12:06] <pfred1> for a while I was getting maybe a year out of a CD burner lately they've been holding up a little better for me
[22:12:57] <pfred1> but I must have a half a milk crate of dead drives here
[22:14:41] <pfred1> I keep my scrap electronics in my junk box http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/8210/72363334.jpg
[22:15:47] <Jymmm> pfred1: you STILL hven't finished the sides yet?
[22:16:04] <pfred1> Jymmm what do you mean? They are finished!
[22:16:22] <Jymmm> all I see is tar paper
[22:16:26] <pfred1> yup
[22:16:31] <Jymmm> lol
[22:17:57] <pfred1> one year we got a lot of snow and that thing stood up under like 2 foot of it on the roof
[22:18:12] <pfred1> I couldn't believe it it is just sitting on bricks
[22:20:08] <pfred1> for some reason OSB is really cheap here maybe we make the stuff or something
[22:20:21] <pfred1> but it goes for like $5.24 a sheet
[22:21:13] <pfred1> that whole shack cost me $50 to slap up
[22:21:38] <pfred1> well excluding the tar paper
[22:28:19] <ThadiusB> anyone have a link where i might find help fixing my parallel port problem with 10.04?
[22:37:10] <jdhnc> what is your parallel port problem?
[22:38:32] <ReadError> ThadiusB,
[22:38:34] <ReadError> check fireball
[22:38:39] <ReadError> and paste the results
[22:38:48] <ReadError> lspci
[22:38:53] <ReadError> and do a lsmod|grep parport
[22:47:24] <Jymmm> pfred1: doesnt leak?
[22:47:36] <pfred1> Jymmm in places
[22:48:16] <Jymmm> pfred1: 5 places by chance?
[22:48:25] <pfred1> depends how hard it rains
[22:48:28] <Jymmm> pfred1: N S E W top
[22:49:05] <Jymmm> Why not metal roof?
[22:49:11] <Jymmm> corrigated
[22:49:21] <pfred1> because OSB is cheap
[22:49:30] <pfred1> and easy to work with
[22:49:38] <Jymmm> and leaks
[22:49:56] <pfred1> only because of how i have it attached to a trailer it is just a leanto
[22:50:39] <Jymmm> I really hate modern roofing materials. the same thing for the pst 30+ years
[22:51:15] <Jymmm> TAR paper, really?
[22:51:39] <Jymmm> roofinh tiles with rock
[22:52:17] <Jymmm> We ca make decking from recycled milk jugs that last like forever, but can't do roofs???
[22:52:48] <pfred1> there is PVC roofing material
[22:53:00] <Jymmm> uncommon
[22:53:11] <pfred1> yeah because of what it costs
[22:53:31] <pfred1> a good tar roof will last a long time
[22:53:43] <Jymmm> 50 years? 100 Years?
[22:54:05] <pfred1> I don't know I've done some pretty old roofs
[22:54:36] * pfred1 was a Barrett boy when he was younger
[22:54:39] <Jymmm> Well, What I'm saying is if I dont have to replace the walls every 20 years, why should I have to replace the roof in 20 years?
[22:54:49] <Jymmm> doesnt make sense
[22:54:56] <pfred1> because the Sun beats on the roof
[22:55:13] <Jymmm> and he walls too
[22:55:15] <djdelorie> and the rain, and snow, and hail, and trees
[22:55:19] <pfred1> not at the same angle
[22:55:23] <Jymmm> just like the walls do
[22:55:29] <pfred1> nope fraid not
[22:55:37] <pfred1> that isn't how direct radiation works
[22:56:03] <pfred1> we get winter and summer because of a 6 degree axis tilt of the planet
[22:56:10] <Jymmm> I dont care how it works, we have synthetic everything these days
[22:56:26] <pfred1> so the angle the light hits matters that much
[22:56:28] <djdelorie> biodegradable roofs...
[22:56:43] <Jymmm> djdelorie: pretty much, which is bs
[22:57:05] <pfred1> if you want a roof that lasts a long time you can get it but it'll cost you
[22:57:07] <Jymmm> Hell, spray on silicon
[22:57:14] <djdelorie> sand roofs?
[22:57:24] <pfred1> well tar roofs are stoned
[22:57:41] <djdelorie> yup, here our roofs are made of the same thing as our roads
[22:57:52] <pfred1> we did a roof once and by mistake got an extra truckload of stone
[22:58:09] <pfred1> I swear we put 6 inches deep of riverstone up on that roof
[22:58:18] <pfred1> it was crazy!
[22:58:39] <pfred1> the boss was like screw it put it down
[22:58:54] <pfred1> they didn't want ot admit they'd made a mistake
[22:59:36] <pfred1> pretty bad huh?
[23:00:23] <pfred1> but as long as it doesn't snow too much that roof is going to last a long time
[23:01:59] <pfred1> I wonder if harry corby still works for them? http://www.barrettroofs.com/
[23:02:46] <pfred1> one of the foremen was a porn star too
[23:02:55] <pfred1> bobby kinellie
[23:03:09] <pfred1> I don't know what his porn name was
[23:04:42] <pfred1> he was an artist with a hot tar mop
[23:05:03] <pfred1> could draw a straight line up the parapit wall
[23:12:23] <Jymmm> heh
[23:12:41] <Jymmm> Yeah, oil too expensive now to still be using tar
[23:12:43] <pfred1> hot tar mopping ain't easy
[23:13:08] <pfred1> tar is the sludge they can't turn into anything else it is a waste byproduct
[23:13:30] <Jymmm> seriously?
[23:13:38] <pfred1> pretty much yeah
[23:13:42] <djdelorie> it's gunk
[23:13:56] <djdelorie> sticky waterproof gunk
[23:14:00] <Jymmm> I'm sure they can make SOMETHING useful other than roofs out of it
[23:14:02] <pfred1> stuff comes in paper cylinders we'd have to chop them with an axe
[23:14:11] <djdelorie> roofs *are* useful
[23:14:13] <pfred1> to throw int othe kettle
[23:14:36] <Jymmm> djdelorie: wat part of OTHER THAN didn't you nderstand?
[23:14:38] <pfred1> hard it kind of looks like obsidian glass
[23:14:57] <pfred1> its sludge
[23:15:11] <djdelorie> I understood the whole thing
[23:15:22] <pfred1> heck it takes a lot of energy just to get it into a workable state
[23:15:56] <pfred1> that was one job I was glad I never went on
[23:16:05] <Jymmm> use it to waterproof trofts or waterways or something
[23:16:18] <Jymmm> sewer pipes
[23:16:22] <pfred1> guys out of my union hall went down to the refining plant to chip out the pipes
[23:16:23] <djdelorie> or roofs
[23:16:42] <pfred1> they'd send you down the pipes with a chipping hammer and you'd chip the gunk out
[23:16:47] <Jymmm> \ignore djdelorie
[23:17:23] <pfred1> it was good money though 12 hour shifts
[23:17:46] <Jymmm> pfred1: chip out tar?
[23:17:56] <pfred1> I guess I didn't do it
[23:17:59] <Jymmm> or gunk
[23:18:05] <Jymmm> k
[23:18:11] <pfred1> a buddy of mine did and the horror stores he told me I'm glad i didn't
[23:18:39] <Jymmm> ok plastic decking has a 25yr waranty
[23:18:42] <pfred1> he said the lights would go out and you'd be in the dark
[23:19:01] <Jymmm> lovely
[23:19:13] <pfred1> all kinds of crack addicts were on that job too
[23:19:14] <Jymmm> how long do metal roofs last?
[23:19:36] <Jymmm> other than outhouses
[23:19:56] <pfred1> I've seen metal roofs in pretty sad shape
[23:20:15] <Jymmm> rust?
[23:20:17] <pfred1> usually what happens is the fasteners rust out and then the wind catches them
[23:20:23] <Jymmm> ah
[23:20:32] <Jymmm> well that sounds more human error
[23:20:44] <pfred1> yeah could be people using the wrong fasteners
[23:21:01] <djdelorie> even stainless steel will rust eventually
[23:21:08] <pfred1> if there is any difference in the metal though you're going to get galvinization going on
[23:21:30] <pfred1> djdelorie I live by the beach and here they have stainless phone booths and they're torn up
[23:21:51] <pfred1> right by the beach stainless doesn't hold up
[23:21:53] <Jymmm> pfred1: pic sometime
[23:22:07] <pfred1> yeah it is shocking
[23:22:22] <pfred1> I mean if I hadn't seen it I'd have never thought it was possible
[23:22:47] <pfred1> stuff turns into gray dust though
[23:22:53] <Jymmm> Not really, salt water is some nasty shit when it comes to metal. I've had it start rusting in 30s inthe reef tank
[23:23:17] <pfred1> the houses on the coast it is unreal how bad a beating they take
[23:23:31] <pfred1> like every other year you're up for major repairs
[23:23:36] <Jymmm> can't they make concrete waterproof?
[23:23:40] <pfred1> cedar shakes it doesn't matter
[23:23:48] <djdelorie> concrete doesn't last long up north
[23:23:57] <Jymmm> djdelorie: snow?
[23:24:01] <djdelorie> ice
[23:24:02] <pfred1> concrete can be funny too
[23:24:09] <djdelorie> and salt
[23:24:11] <pfred1> it all depends on the mix
[23:24:11] <Jymmm> ah, thermal expansion
[23:24:24] <Jymmm> fiberglass + concrete?
[23:24:30] <pfred1> kitty hair
[23:24:31] <djdelorie> yup. That's why roads down south can be concrete, but up here we're limited to asphalt
[23:24:46] <pfred1> that is what we call fiberglass in concrete
[23:24:53] <pfred1> heh listen to this this is funny
[23:25:04] <pfred1> once we poured a floor for a factory that had robots in it
[23:25:11] <pfred1> and we used fiber concrete
[23:25:17] <pfred1> well the fibers stuck up
[23:25:25] <pfred1> and they totally screwed their robots up
[23:25:36] <Jymmm> ooops, someone didn't float it
[23:25:37] <pfred1> so we had to burn all the hairs with torches
[23:25:46] <Jymmm> how?
[23:25:48] <pfred1> nah the hairs just stick up nothing you can do about it
[23:26:18] <djdelorie> the siding on my house is cement and fiber
[23:26:21] <Jymmm> how did it screw up the rbots?
[23:26:38] <pfred1> heck if i know they used some kind of floor tracking and the fibers threw them off
[23:26:49] <Jymmm> oh, heh
[23:26:56] <Jymmm> I thought they were bolted down
[23:27:02] <pfred1> I guess they kind of worked like optical mise or something
[23:27:08] <pfred1> mice even
[23:27:20] <pfred1> yeah it was a warehouse so they were picker robots
[23:27:37] <Jymmm> I was thinking welding bots
[23:27:43] <pfred1> yup
[23:27:50] <pfred1> nah these rolled around
[23:28:04] <pfred1> and they needed a really smooth floor for whatever reason
[23:28:07] <Jymmm> Yeah, they have a drug dealing one at the hospita;
[23:28:24] <Jymmm> I was fucking with it too,
[23:28:38] <pfred1> the future drug dealing robots
[23:28:46] <Jymmm> stand it it's way, it move around me.
[23:28:58] <Jymmm> do it again, and it would just pause for 5m
[23:29:22] <Jymmm> no alarm on the drug door though
[23:29:44] <Jymmm> It's how the hospital pharmacy disense drugs to nursing stations
[23:30:06] <pfred1> I wonder why they didn't just use pneumatic system?
[23:30:20] <Jymmm> or an $8/hr gopher
[23:30:37] <pfred1> well i know why they wouldn't use a gopher
[23:30:39] <Jymmm> be faster too
[23:30:42] <pfred1> they'd be stealing the drugs
[23:30:58] <Jymmm> maybe
[23:31:00] <pfred1> but pneumatic systems are pretty secure
[23:31:13] <Jymmm> thats a hell of an installation
[23:31:22] <Jymmm> two stories, dozens of depts, etc
[23:31:26] <pfred1> not really it is just piping
[23:31:42] <Jymmm> not even banks are sing those now
[23:31:48] <Jymmm> using
[23:31:49] <pfred1> once i saw a street dug down in NYC and it was amazing they had pneumatic systems there
[23:32:13] <pfred1> like between buildings
[23:32:19] <Jymmm> heh
[23:32:27] <pfred1> oh it was laughable
[23:32:43] <pfred1> I don't know what they were digging for but it was way the hell down there
[23:32:55] <pfred1> and there were pipes on top of pipes around pipes
[23:33:11] <pfred1> it was another one of those things you just had to see
[23:33:31] <pfred1> it was right in front of NYU by the park
[23:33:53] <pfred1> that hole was so deep I don't know how there wasn't water in it
[23:33:57] <Jymmm> some of the crap they have underground in NY is scary shit
[23:34:21] <pfred1> it had to have been below the water table
[23:34:41] <Jymmm> there were pipes holding the water back =)
[23:34:52] <pfred1> and as far down as yo ucould see it was just a jungle of pipes
[23:35:36] <pfred1> manhatthan is one artifact
[23:36:02] <pfred1> when i looked into that hole I was sure of it
[23:36:11] <pfred1> it is all connected