#linuxcnc | Logs for 2012-04-13

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[00:04:58] <ReadError> wow joe9
[00:05:06] <ReadError> i thought this would be much more simple
[00:05:17] <ReadError> after seeing all you have been through i fearing the task
[00:05:23] <ReadError> but still must do it
[00:06:01] <joe9> it is a learning process. dj is pretty good at it and thank god that he is around.
[00:06:16] * djdelorie only learned a few weeks ago
[00:11:11] <joe9> djdelorie: does this look ok to you? http://codepad.org/MEf4lrxF it seems to work. just wanted to get your once-over.
[00:11:14] <joe9> if you do not mind.
[00:11:58] <djdelorie> can you put <= and => in the same hal line?
[00:13:15] <djdelorie> hmmm... a custom hal... I'll have to see about adding one of those to mine instead of just editing the regular one...
[00:19:05] <joe9> djdelorie: i got that from jdhnc and it seems to work (afaik).
[00:19:11] <djdelorie> ok then :-)
[00:27:54] <asdfasd> good morning guys
[00:29:49] <asdfasd> I think if debounce make any difference then the electronics need improvement
[00:31:18] <djdelorie> mechanical switches bounce
[00:31:40] <djdelorie> optical interrupters or hall switches don't
[00:32:30] <asdfasd> small capacitor parallel to the switch do much more than mechanical bounce
[00:32:46] <asdfasd> also filter electrical noise
[00:32:50] <Thetawaves> it is irresponsible from a cost/engineering perspective to hardware debounce since it can be done so effectively with software.
[00:33:23] <ssi> IRRESPONSIBLE
[00:33:47] <Thetawaves> :P
[00:34:17] * djdelorie used both hardware and software debounce :-)
[00:34:18] <joe9> djdelorie: how did you come up with the search velocity? stepconf?
[00:34:32] <asdfasd> it is irresponsible to solve hardware problems with software, hardware problems should be solved by hardware, my personal oppinion
[00:34:39] <djdelorie> I watched my machine travelling and sped it up until I started worrying what would happen if it missed...
[00:34:54] <djdelorie> most of the time, I manually jog it most of the way and let it home the rest, to save time
[00:35:28] <djdelorie> but I have a big machine, homing from the other end takes time
[00:35:55] <djdelorie> well, "relatively big" ;-)
[00:36:31] <djdelorie> it is irresponsible to assume one solution is enough, when you can choose between two or more... ;-)
[00:36:43] <ssi> hahaha
[00:36:58] <ssi> I'm trying out my new smoker controller
[00:37:02] <ssi> pid loops everywhere!
[00:37:45] <asdfasd> yes, you can do just in case both, but leaving one and making another is just not proffesional
[00:42:58] <Valen> asdfasd: in an embedded system hardware and software are pretty interchangable
[00:43:28] <Valen> you want to solve switch bouncing without introducing delay, so you use a bunch of flipflops and some RC components
[00:43:38] <Valen> somebody says hey thats a pain, and makes a hardware debounce IC
[00:43:51] <Valen> then they say well thats good but this switch bounces longer/shorter
[00:44:03] <Valen> so somebody makes an I2C debounce IC
[00:44:08] <joe9> djdelorie: noticed that you do not have volatile_HOME set.
[00:44:17] <djdelorie> servos
[00:44:20] <joe9> wouldn't it be a good idea to have it.
[00:44:23] <joe9> oh, got it.
[00:44:59] <Valen> you might as well put an attiny in there then because they are mass produced and hence cheaper and can debounce 5 channels
[00:45:16] <Valen> or just put that code into your mcu and get rid of all those other failure modes
[00:45:46] <Thetawaves> ^^^
[00:45:58] <Valen> I draw the line when the hardware means the software has to guess
[00:46:00] <djdelorie> I put a small debounce RC to handle EMI noise, and a software one to handle actual bouncing
[00:46:08] <asdfasd> valen: it is like to smoke a cigarette when you are hungry - you dont feel hungry any more but you still missed your lunch
[00:46:20] <Valen> no its not
[00:46:20] <djdelorie> the software one knows which way is "hit" too, so it can debounce in the right direction
[00:46:28] <Thetawaves> djdelorie, debounce rc or a low pass filter?
[00:46:30] <Valen> the goal is to read a switch into your software
[00:47:00] <djdelorie> there's a cap from signal to gnd, which is how most of my switches are setup (n.o. to gnd) with a weak pull-up
[00:47:01] <Valen> the issue is switches bounce and naive debounce methods add delay
[00:47:27] <Valen> if the switch line is long and you can't reliably determine a trip from noise, then you need to add hardware
[00:47:29] <djdelorie> Valen: mine assumes the first sign of "hit" is real, then just keeps it real until it stays "not hit" long enough. I don't care where the "not hit" time is
[00:47:57] <Thetawaves> djdelorie, how do you limit current?
[00:48:01] <Valen> djdelorie: i haven't needed to do that, I just take the hit as on then fixed delay ;->
[00:48:11] <Valen> before polling the switch again
[00:48:18] <djdelorie> the only things I cared about were: (1) the home "trip" is reliable, and (2) it stays hit long enough that the homing sequence doesn't give errors
[00:48:36] <djdelorie> Thetawaves: I have ADCs measuring the current in each motor lead, and reduce the PWM in software as needed
[00:48:53] <Thetawaves> your switches i mean
[00:49:02] <Valen> (in micros I have my buttons etc on interrupts, the ISR generally does the "button action (setting a var)" then masks off the interrupt
[00:49:04] <djdelorie> Thetawaves: I don't
[00:49:17] <Valen> after a set number of timer timeouts it re-enables the interrupt
[00:49:32] <djdelorie> Valen: I poll the switches in the pwm interrupt, every 50 uS. There's a timeout there for the debounce
[00:49:36] <asdfasd> many contemporary enginiers solve theyr hardware problems with software solutions, but that is just not serious, it is doind the job but not in the proper way
[00:49:39] <Thetawaves> the pros put a resistor in series to limit current
[00:50:04] <Valen> asdfasd: if you wanted to solve the problem the "propper" way go build a switch that doesn't bounce
[00:50:21] <Valen> thats the actual problem
[00:50:26] <djdelorie> might be a good idea, I have resistors elsewhere for that purpose (and for terminating)
[00:50:29] <Thetawaves> and some schottky diodes that activate before the pull up diodes in the mcu
[00:50:34] <Valen> everything else is just ways of mitigating the problem
[00:50:52] <Thetawaves> the totem pole diodes
[00:51:00] <Thetawaves> i don't know what they are called
[00:51:21] <djdelorie> protection diodes ?
[00:51:25] <Valen> my way has fewer failure modes and its cheaper than yours, given that everything is a compromise in engineering my solution is nominally better
[00:51:56] <djdelorie> I've got a full EMI stage on the wires on my furnace controller, didn't think I'd need them on the limit switches.
[00:52:23] <Thetawaves> you do if they are connected through a distance of wire
[00:52:32] <Thetawaves> it acts like a inductor
[00:53:08] <Thetawaves> but of course that is only if the switch is like 20 or more feet away
[00:53:30] <djdelorie> mine isn't, and the cap on the pcb will absorb some of that anyway
[00:53:33] <Thetawaves> i don't know why i mentioned it on the topic of limit switches
[00:53:46] * Valen is off to the pool\
[00:53:48] <djdelorie> I did put strong pull-downs on the wires coming from the *pc* though
[00:53:57] <djdelorie> those were picking up motor noise EMI
[00:54:24] <djdelorie> the limit switch wires are all within the machine itself, since they go to the controller boards, so the longest is only a few feet.
[00:54:38] <djdelorie> and the signal is in the middle, with power and gnd on the outsides
[00:54:51] <joe9> is there any way I can change the gui to reflect my home. I home to minimum limit on x and y axes and maximum on z axis.
[00:55:22] <djdelorie> what about the gui do you want to change?
[00:56:14] <asdfasd> djdelorie: on each wire I have capacitor and 5.1V zener diode, also on each calble one of these thick ferrite rings
[00:56:40] <djdelorie> I put the ferrites on the motor wires and power, haven't needed any on the limit switch wires yet
[00:57:34] <djdelorie> at least, the machine's been running reliably without them
[00:58:09] <asdfasd> I did a lots of noise thests I noticed that most of the noise distruption the board is because of negative current pulses in the ground
[00:59:10] <asdfasd> 5.1V zener cut them before they reach the processor or any other IC
[01:00:14] <djdelorie> there's plenty of USB protection chips, they work great in 5v systems
[01:02:01] <asdfasd> I didnt try that
[01:03:49] <djdelorie> my furnace uses the SP724 chips, four 0-5v TVSs per sot-23
[01:04:49] <asdfasd> but when I decided that it is enough noise resistant and I can close the box, then mechanical switch bounce wasnt an issue any more
[01:05:11] <djdelorie> :-)
[01:07:04] <djdelorie> my furnace was "noise reistant enough" when nearly lightning strikes stopped killing my sensors
[01:07:12] <djdelorie> nearby
[01:07:18] <asdfasd> sp724 look nice
[01:07:33] <Thetawaves> djdelorie, :D
[01:08:01] <Thetawaves> what sensors?
[01:08:32] <Thetawaves> ir?
[01:09:02] <djdelorie> also used EXC-CET222U to block noise.
[01:09:31] <djdelorie> temperature and humidity sensors. The outdoor one kept dying during storms, and taking out parts of the controller board with it
[01:10:39] <Thetawaves> with sensors.. do you need to do emi protection on both sides of the link?
[01:10:54] <Thetawaves> (assuming there is actually a circuit..)
[01:11:11] <djdelorie> yes, because the wire itself picks up the EMI
[01:11:23] <asdfasd> EXC-CET222U cut too high frequency I think you need something with higher inductance
[01:11:41] <djdelorie> that depends on what the signal is :-)
[01:12:06] <djdelorie> and what the EMI is
[01:12:08] <asdfasd> of course but I guess you dont have 80 mhz signal :)
[01:12:29] <djdelorie> no, but close to the 1MHz range
[01:12:39] <djdelorie> there are other filters in there too
[01:13:13] <asdfasd> my tests wad for noise generated by other devices
[01:13:39] <Thetawaves> who wants to make chips in a thunderstorm anyway
[01:13:56] <djdelorie> that board was bolted to my furnace, so it had motors, fire, heat/cold, and an electrostatic air filter. I.e. I bolted it to an EMI generator
[01:14:04] <asdfasd> like VFD, brush motors like hoover, welding
[01:15:42] <asdfasd> nice challange :)
[01:17:25] <asdfasd> long time ago I did PI metal detector, the search coil was 10 turns square 1m by 1m, it pick a lightening strike from 50km :)
[01:24:45] <Thetawaves> nice
[01:50:41] <asdfasd> anyone tested hall sensors for home swithces? and specially accuracy and repeatibility?
[01:52:08] <alex4nder> I've used them in racecar engines
[01:52:15] <alex4nder> they're totally legit.
[01:53:59] <asdfasd> I doubt they may change position a little bit because of external magnetic field
[01:55:49] <alex4nder> I don't know how much you can get away with, but they work well in harsh environments.
[01:55:55] <DJ9DJ> moin
[01:55:59] <alex4nder> yoh
[01:56:09] <DJ9DJ> hi everyone
[03:53:20] <DanteTDI> hi, is there some diy hardware that works good with linuxcnc?
[03:55:56] <DanteTDI> (electronic hardware)
[03:56:20] <Jymmm> budget?
[03:58:49] <asdfasd> usually DIY hardware stepper ot servo is based on step/dir control via LPT and it wirks fine with linuxcnc
[03:59:35] <Jymmm> DanteTDI: http://www.geckodrive.com/g540-digital-axis-motor-control-p-39.html Worth the money
[04:00:13] <DanteTDI> Jymmm: under 500€ for electronics...
[04:01:23] <Jymmm> DanteTDI: The G540 has mid-band compensation, built in BOB, optical isolation, speed and relay control, etc
[04:01:58] <DanteTDI> it has got a position feedback?
[04:02:22] <Jymmm> you looking for servo?
[04:03:28] <asdfasd> if you dont have enough experience with electronics it will be cheaper for you to buy motor driver
[04:04:05] <DanteTDI> i'm able to weld comopnents and in the past made my own circuits(simple circuits)
[04:04:24] <DanteTDI> ii'm able to design a power driver
[04:04:47] <DanteTDI> but i havent got any idea for the controller
[04:05:16] <DanteTDI> Jymmm: wht's the difference between stepper and servo?
[04:05:43] <DanteTDI> not in general, but i can't understand how i can use servo on cnc...
[04:08:44] <asdfasd> https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=stepper+vs+servo&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a
[04:11:03] <Valen> DanteTDI: servo is not those things you see in RC planes
[04:11:37] <DanteTDI> i see...
[04:12:14] <DanteTDI> i used servo rc with microchip pic in the past...now i see that your servo is different... :)
[04:13:20] <Valen> thats not a servo, this is a servo http://www.iowacitylist.com/Household-Goods-/Pets----no-live-animals-/New-indramat-10-kw-servo-motor-132B-1335OB1-BS03-A2N1.HTM
[04:15:38] <DanteTDI> i will return in a minute...i have to reboot
[04:20:50] <alex_joni> GM7221-4SB61
[04:20:57] <alex_joni> rated power: 100kW
[04:21:05] <alex_joni> rated current: 188 A
[04:21:12] <alex_joni> weight: 650kg
[04:21:18] <Jymmm> battery powered
[04:21:34] <alex_joni> 636 Nm
[04:21:56] <alex_joni> Inertia: 1.48 Kgm^2
[04:22:01] <alex_joni> now that's low
[04:23:02] <DanteTDI> how much for the gecko?
[04:23:26] <alex_joni> www.geckodrives.com
[04:24:07] <alex_joni> 299$ for a G540
[04:24:47] <alex_joni> hmmm.. seems prices are a bit up from what I remember
[04:24:57] <alex_joni> 81$ for a G250 is a bit pricey imo
[04:24:59] <Valen> for that big a motor its low
[04:25:02] <Jymmm> yeah, sounds like it to me too
[04:25:34] <Valen> with a weight of 600kg
[04:25:44] <Valen> 148 i'd believe lol
[04:26:00] <alex_joni> Valen: it's a servo
[04:26:13] <alex_joni> it's supposed to have low inertia, otherwise it's a regular AC motor
[04:26:35] <Valen> 1.4kg/m means its rotor is the same as 1.4kg sitting on a 1 meter stick
[04:27:00] <Valen> 110 CC's of copper
[06:43:03] <engkur> halo
[08:50:06] <JT-Shop> djdelorie: I tried all sorts of combinations for home but never could get the same error on my plasma... and I've set my limits properly now
[08:54:14] <Jymmm> JT-Shop You just didn't try hard enough ;)
[08:54:20] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: How ya doin =)
[08:54:35] <JT-Shop> doin good how about you
[08:55:28] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: Not too shabby, fighting myself to do taxes =)
[08:56:00] <JT-Shop> yea, I need to do mine too...
[08:56:01] <Jymmm> I dont have a issue paying, just gimme a postcard and not 85,000 forms!
[08:58:28] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: Hey, I'm trying to heat seal the ends of plastic tubing, kinda like the end of a tube of toothpaste. You have any idea on how they do the 1/8" heat sealed crimp by chance?
[08:59:09] <Jymmm> without the tooling sticking to the material when squeezed together
[09:02:38] <JT-Shop> vibration usually
[09:03:21] <archivist> non stick cover to the heater
[09:03:33] <archivist> teflon
[09:05:25] <JT-Shop> archivist: would you have time to gander at a couple of steam engine drawings?
[09:05:43] <archivist> can do
[09:40:16] <ssi> what's a braking resistor for a vfd cost?
[09:42:03] <JT-Shop> depends on the vfd I'd assume
[09:42:13] <JT-Shop> automationdirect has them listed
[09:42:37] <awallin> something like this? http://www.ebay.com/itm/150-Ohms-3kW-CARBORUNDUM-WIRELESS-ABSORBER-OF-HIGH-POWER-RESISTOR-LOT-OF-1-/280851983843
[09:43:06] <JT-Shop> http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Drives/GS2_%28115_-z-_230_-z-_460_-z-_575_VAC_V-z-Hz_Control%29/GS2_Braking_Options_%28Braking_Units_-a-_Resistors%29
[09:48:40] <ssi> JT-Shop: thanks
[09:48:49] <ssi> now I just have to figure out how exactly to size them
[09:49:23] <archivist> vfd manual should say
[09:49:28] <JT-Shop> yea, I was lucky and just needed the model number to match up to
[09:49:29] <ssi> yeah probably
[09:49:45] <ssi> so how much can you cut down on your decel time with the resistor?
[09:52:53] <archivist> those jt pointed at looked expensive http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/high-power/0136339/
[09:54:06] <ssi> I'm tryin to find the manual so I can find out what exactly it wants
[09:57:39] <thinpete> You should be able to deccel as fast as you can accell if the load resistor can dissipate the peak power at the maximum DC bus voltage (and the brake MOSFET/IGBT can deliver the peak current)
[09:58:08] <ssi> I see
[09:58:13] <archivist> if your resistance is a bit high you just lose some breaking
[09:58:26] <ssi> I wish the accel/decel parameters were in rate units instead of total time
[09:58:39] <ssi> I'm having a lot of trouble with my machine faulting on decel overcurrent
[09:58:44] <ssi> just from M5 from high speed
[09:58:54] <ssi> I've started programming a release clutch then M5
[09:58:57] <ssi> which I'm not crazy about
[09:59:43] <joe9> djdelorie: do you have a touch-off switch?
[10:00:23] <joe9> djdelorie: jdhnc: just wanted to let you know that with software debouncing, everything works like a charm.
[10:00:32] <thinpete> When you brake you dump power back into the DC bus raising the bus voltage (destructively if theres no brake/PWM shutdown protection)
[10:00:44] <ssi> yeah I understand that
[10:01:14] <thinpete> so adding a brake resistor should help (weve used a electric stove element)
[10:01:27] <ssi> but I have like a 10 second decel time, and it seems like simply M5 shouldn't cause it to fault merely from spindle inertia
[10:01:42] <ssi> I mean it's a 2lb chunk of aluminum, not a 75lb workpiece (which happens to be the machine's rated workpiece load)
[10:02:36] <thinpete> whats the natural deccel time? if 10 seconds is any faster you will be pumping up the DC bus
[10:02:45] <ssi> not sure tbh
[10:03:10] <ssi> I'm wondering if I might be better off putting the mechanical brake back on
[10:04:07] <ssi> anyway, see the problem with trying to turn up the decel time
[10:04:24] <ssi> since it's a fixed decel time, it may solve the faults for high-speed to zero,
[10:04:30] <ssi> it also increases the overall decel for low-speed
[10:04:35] <ssi> which makes rigid tapping overshoot a lot more
[10:05:12] <thinpete> Yeah you definately need brake resistor
[10:06:00] <ssi> so the manual doesn't call out what to use for a resistor
[10:06:05] <ssi> instead it talks about a DC braking unit
[10:06:08] <ssi> and it can do DC injection
[10:06:14] <ssi> I'm wondering if that means you can't just use a simple resistor
[10:06:19] <ssi> or if you can, but they won't tell you how :P
[10:07:16] <thinpete> if it can do DC injection surely that is a setup option of some kind
[10:08:07] <ssi> it is
[10:09:04] <ssi> Braking units are required for applications where a load with high inertia needs to be stopped rapidly.
[10:09:07] <ssi> Use a power-matched braking unit and resistor to dissipate the energy generated by the load while stopping. Otherwise inverter will trip on over voltage.
[10:09:11] <ssi> that's from the manual
[10:10:09] <mazafaka> Used 30-mm in diameter End Mill to mill the sides of 1000 by 600 mm steel plate 50 mm thick. Everybody said I'm mad. But what can I do on a 2.5D machine?
[10:10:25] <mazafaka> 40 mm per minute
[10:10:35] <mazafaka> 120 RPM
[10:16:40] <ssi> aha
[10:17:13] <ssi> 220v class, 3hp, 260W 70R
[10:17:19] <ssi> then it says "max connectable quantity"
[10:17:22] <ssi> not exactly sure what that means :P
[10:18:37] <ssi> I guess with four I could do a 2S2P and end up with a 1kW 70R resistor
[10:18:46] <ssi> but why not just by a 1kW 70R resistor? :P
[10:22:09] <mazafaka> ssi: I have only understood it like "My PlayStation? It sucks so I modify it, what casn I do with all that junk, all that junk inside the truck? I want-want want brand new games, brand new games to look damn smart!"
[10:23:50] <ssi> I...seee....
[10:24:06] <mazafaka> Ha!
[10:24:26] <mazafaka> I sold that second bike today
[10:26:45] <mazafaka> Two different departments, the boss and the quality control department, have perplexed me quite a lot this wee
[10:26:53] <mazafaka> *this week
[10:28:28] <mazafaka> I'm 2.5D-milling on a coordinate-drilling machine which lacks rigidity. One need more details to be finished, others say this machine must be in a museum. That's how double standards work.
[10:34:59] <thinpete> SSI i wonder if by "braking unit" they mean that they do not have the IGBT/comparator and leave that up to an external box
[10:35:31] <thinpete> are there setup options for the brake voltage?
[10:37:56] <ssi> DC braking time, start freq, voltage %
[10:40:26] <thinpete> Hmm
[10:41:11] <thinpete> no nice pictures of power resistor connected to two VFD pins?
[10:41:47] <ssi> nope
[10:41:53] <ssi> I searched for a "braking unit"
[10:41:56] <ssi> and I got a manual
[10:42:01] <ssi> http://www.tecowestinghouse.com/Manuals/Breaking%20Unit%207200PA-7200GA.pdf
[10:42:04] <ssi> misspelled :D
[10:42:12] <ssi> and it's scans of some chinglish translations
[10:42:26] <ssi> but there's a table in there that insinuates that for the lower powered vfds, you use resistors
[10:42:32] <thinpete> hope its not a breaking unit...
[10:42:34] <ssi> and the higher powered ones use this "breaking unit"
[10:44:13] <thinpete> "rubber bush" is nice
[10:44:18] <ssi> yeah
[10:44:22] <ssi> they couldn't afford a rubber tree
[10:45:04] <ssi> I may just set it to free coast and think about getting the mechanical brake back working and installed
[10:45:41] <thinpete> My all time favorite chinglish is "regal sticked rubbles" (for stick-on rubber feet)
[10:46:01] <ssi> hah
[10:46:45] <thinpete> So yeah its a box with the IGBT and comparator (and resistor)
[10:47:39] <ssi> haha from hsm:
[10:47:40] <ssi> My Teco EV does have an internal braking mechanism, and I have it enabled. The brake works, but trips occasionally, no matter how I tweak the configuration.
[10:47:43] <ssi> The EV has two terminals identified as a place to attach an external resistor. The external resistor setup does not work on mine, probably because I let the smoke out while experimenting (you have to experiment because the manual is as clear as mud). But, the fact that it has the terminals for an external resistor suggests that it does not require a separate extra-cost braking module
[10:48:51] <thinpete> Yeah if the terminal are not simply DC bus then the switch is inside
[10:48:58] <thinpete> terminals
[10:49:27] <ssi> so if they don't include the switch, then the +/- terminals are just raw DC bus?
[10:49:38] <thinpete> Yep
[10:49:44] <thinpete> Dont get bit!
[10:50:01] <ssi> a little 230vdc never hurt anyone :D
[10:50:12] <thinpete> ~340 VDC
[10:50:20] <ssi> potato, tomato
[10:50:58] <ssi> I might oughta replace that VFD with one that is saner for braking
[10:51:00] <ssi> and use that one on my mill
[10:51:14] <ssi> my manual bridgyclone is run off a static converter presently
[10:51:55] <thinpete> static meaning just 60 Hz?
[10:52:16] <ssi> static phase converter
[10:52:21] <ssi> so yeah, just 60hz
[10:52:25] <thinpete> Yeah
[10:52:26] <ssi> and 2/3 max power
[10:55:20] <ssi> anyway, so the gist of it is
[10:55:33] <ssi> randomly putting a resistor across those terminals might be a really really bad idea if it's raw dc bus
[10:55:36] <ssi> yes?
[10:56:14] <thinpete> Well a voltmeter will probably tell you whats there
[10:56:23] <ssi> what should I be looking for?
[10:56:28] <archivist> deterministicly work out which model you have and what it can handle
[10:56:33] <ssi> 0v during normal operation?
[10:56:40] <ssi> archivist: I know exactly what model I have
[10:57:06] <archivist> so you known which braking it can handle?
[10:57:09] <ssi> nope!
[10:57:10] <archivist> know
[10:57:12] <thinpete> there will be some leakage but if you get ~340V the its bus power
[10:57:20] <thinpete> then its
[10:57:27] <ssi> thinpete: gotcha... I can check that easily enough
[11:00:19] <thinpete> Be very careful not just high power/high voltage but high peak current/arc potential
[11:00:28] <ssi> understood
[11:03:22] <alex4nder> hey
[11:04:22] <ssi> at any rate
[11:04:24] <ssi> HNC is makin parts
[11:04:25] <ssi> http://p.twimg.com/AqXqBSYCQAEyVvh.jpg:large
[11:04:26] <ssi> wooooo
[11:07:24] <alex4nder> werd
[11:09:27] <thinpete> Neat! looks like the HNC was designed to crank that type of part out
[11:15:35] <JT-Shop> ssi: nice
[11:19:00] <ssi> thinpete: that part is actually a little tricky just cause of the diameter
[11:19:12] <ssi> it's a 2"ø part, and I have to use a step collet
[11:19:18] <ssi> other than that, yeah it's really working well
[11:21:08] <ssi> those parts are worth $15 each to my customer, and he wants 30 of them a month to start
[11:21:19] <ssi> this machine is going to pay for itself!
[11:21:30] <ssi> which is probably a given for a lot of folks here, but this is a hobby for me :D
[11:24:02] <pjm> ssi http://www.postglover.com/dynamicbraking.html is worth a look
[11:24:08] <mazafaka> How did you find this job for your machine to work?
[11:24:16] <pjm> for my yakasawa vfd i used 150 ohm 100w loads
[11:24:33] <joe9> alex4nder: how do you do "touch off"? do you use a "touch off" switch?
[11:24:33] <ssi> mazafaka: through a friend... I have two friends of friends paying me to make stuff now actually
[11:24:44] <ssi> pjm: thanks!
[11:24:56] <mazafaka> But how have this all started?
[11:25:09] <ssi> mazafaka: I have ten machines, and everyone knows it
[11:25:11] <ssi> hell of a hobby I know
[11:25:44] <joe9> ssi, how is your machine coming along? is this the one that I was pitching in for?
[11:25:46] <mazafaka> I can imagine
[11:26:00] <ssi> joe9: pitching in?
[11:26:15] <alex4nder> joe9: I touch off the thing I'm machining
[11:26:18] <joe9> or, "planning to pitch in ofr".
[11:26:26] <ssi> hehe I don't recall
[11:26:27] <joe9> ssi, sorry, typing has been off
[11:26:30] <ssi> but yeah, it's mostly done
[11:26:35] <ssi> I need a panel and a pendant
[11:26:44] <joe9> ssi, no, the machine that we were discussing about.
[11:26:55] <joe9> ssi, oh, cool.
[11:27:01] <ssi> ohh you were wanting the little desktop mill
[11:27:14] <joe9> i bought a taig
[11:27:22] <ssi> I haven't done anything on that yet, but my next big project is to get my g0704 conversion finished
[11:27:28] <ssi> how's the taig working out?
[11:27:48] <joe9> it is well made, an awesome machine. but, I am still getting my feet wet on it.
[11:28:02] <joe9> added home/limit switches to it.
[11:28:25] <joe9> now, I am thinking about how to "touch off"
[11:28:49] <alex4nder> joe9: you should try milling something, touching off will become really clear
[11:30:56] <JT-Shop> joe9: you get the homing working?
[11:30:58] <alex4nder> you'll realize all of the measurement gear and random tools you need
[11:31:09] <joe9> JT-Shop: yes. it works like a charm now.
[11:31:15] <ssi> the way that I do it is get the tool close to a known Z position, then slip a .010 feeler between the tool and the surface, then switch to incremental mode and move .001 step at a time until the feeler gets tight
[11:31:17] <JT-Shop> what was it?
[11:31:25] <ssi> then I hit touch off and enter the known Z dimension + .010
[11:31:42] <joe9> JT-Shop: i think debouncing
[11:31:48] <joe9> switch was inverted
[11:31:55] <JT-Shop> ssi: I use a dowel and slowly raise the tool till it just rolls under
[11:32:06] <ssi> bear in mind that there are several coordinate systems in play and you need to make sure you know how they're set up and which you're affecting
[11:32:12] <alex4nder> yah
[11:32:19] <ssi> JT-Shop: that's not a bad way, but mostly I do this on the lathe in Z and X actually :)
[11:32:29] <alex4nder> I use a wiggler.
[11:32:42] <alex4nder> Fisher Machine makes cool small ones for the taig.
[11:32:47] <alex4nder> well, machines the size of the taig.
[11:32:52] <JT-Shop> I do that for the Z of lathe
[11:32:54] <joe9> i am thinking of a "touch off switch". takes the guess work out. is that a bad idea?
[11:33:16] <joe9> it takes care of the tool length and all that. doesn't it?
[11:33:42] <JT-Shop> works ok for setting up your tool changer but you still have to touch off the material
[11:33:58] <ssi> joe9: could get something like this: http://www.edgetechnologyproducts.com/pro-touch-off-gage.html
[11:34:14] <joe9> jt-shop. ok, thanks.
[11:34:33] <ssi> I actually want to buy their silly little tramming device
[11:34:39] <ssi> I was gonna MAKE one, because it's like $80
[11:34:40] <JT-Shop> ssi: I use that on the VMC
[11:34:43] <alex4nder> and you still need to know exactly where your material is in relation to whatever you touch off of.
[11:34:49] <ssi> but then I realized that I really don't need another project
[11:35:04] <JT-Shop> and the lathe tool height setting do-hickey
[11:35:21] <alex4nder> joe9: do you know what "touching off" means? it's telling the machine where your material is inside the machine's coordinate system. it sets up a reference to a relative position
[11:35:28] <alex4nder> so you need to get near the material
[11:35:33] <ssi> JT-Shop: I have the little magic hardinge height gauge tool
[11:35:38] <ssi> that references it off the bed
[11:35:42] <JT-Shop> I don't have enough travel on Z on the knee mill to use the pro touch off gauge on it
[11:35:51] <alex4nder> you also need to position the material so that it's parallel with your axes
[11:35:54] <joe9> alex4nder: ok, thanks. next step is to start milling something.
[11:35:55] <JT-Shop> ssi: got a photo of it?
[11:36:13] <joe9> is there a "slow zone" in linuxcnc?
[11:36:32] <joe9> from mach-3: "You can also set up a slow zone, this is the distance that Mach will start to slow down so that it doesn’t over travel when reaching the soft limits, you will have to find out the perfect distance for your individual machine as all machines will vary due to differences in acceleration, velocity and even machine weight and motor size."
[11:36:41] <ssi> JT-Shop: not handy... I can take one tonight
[11:36:47] <joe9> curious, if that is possible with linuxcnc
[11:37:17] <ssi> JT-Shop: here you go
[11:37:17] <ssi> http://aafradio.org/garajmahal/Hardinge_L-2A_Tool_Setting_Gauge.html
[11:38:11] <cradek> ssi: not needed, because linuxcnc will decel in a controlled fashion to the stop point, never just blindly fly past it
[11:38:32] <ssi> cradek: aha
[11:38:41] <cradek> ssi: that "slow zone" sounds like a poor workaround for a mach bug
[11:38:58] <ssi> cradek: it seems like it overshoots, fwiw
[11:39:06] <cradek> what does?
[11:39:24] <ssi> cradek: I'm doing a rigid tap move starting 2.5mm from Z0, incremental -13mm
[11:39:31] <ssi> and it taps more than 11mm deep I'm pretty sure
[11:39:34] <ssi> I'll have to doublecheck
[11:39:39] <cradek> yes
[11:39:44] <cradek> that has nothing to do with soft limits
[11:39:52] <ssi> oh you're responding to somethign different
[11:39:52] <ssi> sorry
[11:39:57] <ssi> I think that was aimed at joe9
[11:40:01] <joe9> cradek: you are responding to me.
[11:40:07] <joe9> cradek, thanks for that.
[11:40:10] <cradek> oh sorry, yes
[11:40:14] <ssi> I thought you dug up my backscroll about deceleration in my VFD
[11:40:32] <cradek> about tapping: linuxcnc will continue to follow your spindle as it slows and reverses past the target - otherwise the tap would break
[11:40:36] <ssi> I was complaining that I get decel faults sometimes, but if i up my decel time, it makes my slow-speed decel so long that I'm afraid it'll screw up my tap
[11:40:53] <JT-Shop> ssi: that is better than what I use
[11:40:56] <ssi> I thought you were saying that linuxcnc would somehow plan for the long decel
[11:41:04] <ssi> but really how could it know :)
[11:41:06] <joe9> alex4nder: i think my next step is to mill something. Any ideas? I have wood lying around and am thinking of starting with that. i remember you mentioned styrofoam.
[11:41:14] <cradek> ah no it doesn't know, just has to follow
[11:41:19] <ssi> JT-Shop: the guy that sold me the HNC sold me that tool for FORTYFIVE DOLLARS
[11:41:19] <cradek> add a resistor!
[11:41:31] <ssi> cradek: want to, but I think my VFD needs an external transistor with the resistor
[11:41:47] <cradek> my vfd has a regen-to-line setting for braking, and it has a "slow down as fast as possible without faulting" setting
[11:41:58] <JT-Shop> still better than putting a collet in and using the level thingy
[11:42:07] <cradek> did you study the manual very carefully? there might be a hundred braking options.
[11:42:33] <ssi> the latter would be nice
[11:42:35] <ssi> I'll have to look
[11:42:45] <ssi> I also thought about maybe putting the mechanical brake back in and setting vfd to coast
[11:42:49] <alex4nder> joe9: just mill a line in some wood manually.. then try running some g-code
[11:43:00] <joe9> ok, thanks.
[11:43:01] <cradek> sorry for the confusion up there
[11:43:04] <ssi> no problem :)
[11:43:17] <alex4nder> joe9: I would crank up the spindle speed, and then do like 10 IPM feed rate, and just mess around
[11:43:24] <alex4nder> joe9: do you have a wet/dry vac?
[11:43:31] <ssi> JT-Shop: to be clear, the HNC (and probably chnc) version of that tool sits on the bedway, not on the carriage
[11:43:51] <joe9> alex4nder: vac == vacuum cleaner?
[11:43:58] <alex4nder> yup
[11:44:05] <alex4nder> joe9: also what endmills do you have?
[11:44:27] <joe9> i just have the normal home vac. it is a small dry one.
[11:44:42] <JT-Shop> I like this comment "The L-2A tool height setting tool is a quick way to set up the cutting height of various tool bits, especially if you have to change one in the middle of a job and don't want to break down the setup to do the usual experimentation. "
[11:45:04] <alex4nder> joe9: you remember that video I posted of me milling wood? it'll give you some good ideas of what you can do.. I had the feed set really low
[11:45:08] <ssi> heheh
[11:45:18] <ssi> JT-Shop: so I changed inserts mid job last night
[11:45:22] <ssi> not mid-cycle, between parts
[11:45:36] <ssi> I switched to a crown-type insert to try to get better chip control
[11:45:52] <JT-Shop> ah changed style... yep
[11:45:55] <ssi> and it ended up changing my finish diameter by almost .080
[11:45:57] <ssi> I was surprised
[11:46:00] <joe9> alex4nder: do you have the video still? would you mind passing it along?
[11:46:15] <alex4nder> joe9: http://www.andern.org/alexander/taig_milling_wood.m4v
[11:46:38] <alex4nder> the feeds could be much higher
[11:46:48] <alex4nder> the spindle is running at 10k
[11:46:54] <joe9> ok, will check it out.
[11:47:04] <joe9> actually checking it out now.
[11:47:46] <joe9> alex4nder: what do you call that bit? looks like a dremel cutter.
[11:48:23] <joe9> alex4nder: is it the vac that you are pointing at it?
[11:48:32] <alex4nder> joe9: it's an endmill.. and yah that's a vac.
[11:48:43] <alex4nder> the endmill is a 4 flute high speed steel 1/2 inch
[11:49:05] <joe9> ok, thanks.
[11:59:51] <ReadError> so i thought of a stupid question
[11:59:58] <ReadError> say i have a piece of metal
[12:00:03] <ReadError> and i want to cut a square out
[12:00:08] <ReadError> how would that be done?
[12:00:19] <ReadError> wouldnt the bit round the corners since its round?
[12:00:31] <alex4nder> yes.
[12:00:46] <alex4nder> finish with a smaller bit
[12:00:47] <archivist> drill then file or broach or use a slotter
[12:01:07] <archivist> or shaper
[12:01:34] <alex4nder> yup
[12:01:38] <alex4nder> depending on the need
[12:02:11] <archivist> you can make your own broaches but thats "interesting"
[12:03:40] <ssi> JT-Shop: http://www.flywheelmachinetools.com/TOOLHOLDINGHARDINGE.html
[12:03:46] <ssi> first one is the HNC/CHNC height gage
[12:14:57] <archivist> ReadError, for brass and the square hole in a winding key, we manufactured them in qty, drill deep enough for the chips, hold in a rigid clamp, use a bit of HSS ground square(a degree or two relief) as a broach, used a fly press for the operation
[12:15:49] <archivist> the drilled hole a bit over sized
[12:39:01] <djdelorie> joe9: I also use feeler gauges for touching off Z, and just eyeballs for X and Y
[12:40:26] <alex4nder> I have been now to drop the endmill slowly towards the stock, and listen for the tick-tick-tick of the endmill licking the material
[12:46:02] <IchGuckLive> hi all around the globe
[12:46:20] <joe9> djdelorie: alex4nder: ok, thanks.
[12:46:31] <alex4nder> IchGuckLive: hello
[12:50:33] <joe9> with the feeler gauge, do you put the feeler guage on the workpiece and slowly bring the tip to touch it?
[12:50:51] <joe9> djdelorie: any thoughts, please?
[12:51:05] <ssi> joe9: yes
[12:51:14] <djdelorie> in my case, the bits are too delicate for that. I bring the tool down, then see if the feeler fits under it
[12:51:28] <ssi> joe9: and when I'm close, I move the feeler back and forth, and I can feel if they start to drag
[12:51:35] <ssi> but yea for a tiny little pcb drill, that probably won't work
[12:52:20] <alex4nder> for a PCB maybe you want a vacuum table and a touch probe with a reference
[12:52:24] <JT-Shop> ssi: thanks for the link
[12:52:26] <alex4nder> (if you get serious)
[12:52:31] <djdelorie> also, I have a whole feeler set, so I can usually measure the actual distance that way in a few tries
[12:53:06] <joe9> djdelorie: i am thinking of buying this set: http://www.harborfreight.com/32-piece-sae-metric-feeler-gauge-32214.html
[12:53:09] <cradek> use a dowel pin or anything else of known diameter, like a tool shank. move low enough that it can't roll under. now, move UP slowly until it rolls under. this is much safer than moving down.
[12:53:16] <djdelorie> alex4nder: for pcb drilling, that kind of accuracy is not needed. In my case at least, the carriage needs time to stop vibrating after the XY travel, so I just use a longer drill path
[12:53:29] <alex4nder> djdelorie: this is more of a milling issue
[12:53:43] <cradek> also, because it's round, as you get close to it rolling under, you will feel the motion speed up
[12:53:49] <joe9> cradek: i have a punch set and a set of parallels. i am not sure if I can use them instead.
[12:53:56] <djdelorie> One of my "to do" projects is to mill a vacuum hold-down. I have the vacuum itself
[12:54:07] <djdelorie> joe9: use a drill bit
[12:54:14] <alex4nder> djdelorie: poul-henning kamp did a good write-up of h is technique
[12:54:15] <cradek> use a broken carbide pcb tool. the shanks will be very near .125
[12:54:41] <cradek> or whatever you have
[12:54:47] <djdelorie> if you have to be more accurate than any of these suggestions, you probably need a better mill anyway? :-)
[12:54:50] <cradek> if you have a hardware store you can get one dowel pin for a few cents
[12:55:48] <djdelorie> alex4nder: url?
[12:55:54] <alex4nder> hmm
[12:55:58] <joe9> cradek, ok. thanks. i will check for it.
[12:55:58] <alex4nder> djdelorie: http://phk.freebsd.dk/CncPcb/
[12:56:09] <djdelorie> thanks
[12:56:59] <IchGuckLive> PCB without a plan vaccuum is a miss special with V-shape cutters
[12:57:48] <djdelorie> yup, I have the vacuum system partly for pcb UV exposure too, to make sure the mask is tight. "flat" is not a description of blank PCBs :-)
[12:59:03] <IchGuckLive> UV within 60sec shoudt not be a miss
[12:59:12] <djdelorie> mine takes about 5 minutes
[12:59:29] <djdelorie> but hold-down is mostly to optimize the focus
[12:59:32] <IchGuckLive> get more UV sources
[12:59:39] <djdelorie> another "to do" project :-)
[13:00:09] <djdelorie> even so, the better the focus, the more reliable your results
[13:00:20] <IchGuckLive> id used a 100W lamp at 30cm/1ft distance that burned in folks
[13:00:23] * Thetawaves has been reading the epoxy/granite thread on the zone
[13:00:31] <alex4nder> thinpete: that's a good thread
[13:00:32] <IchGuckLive> 1000W O.O
[13:00:38] <djdelorie> I use 100 uv LEDs
[13:01:04] <IchGuckLive> a sun burner for broun skin is 15USD
[13:01:57] <djdelorie> yup, we've had this conversation before ;-)
[13:01:58] <IchGuckLive> djdelorie: do you use led shinings for more better resonance
[13:02:32] <djdelorie> I use LED because it was fun, a known technology, and only 8 degree dispersion
[13:02:40] <IchGuckLive> this gives you a strait uc sector
[13:03:16] <IchGuckLive> 5minis realy mutch
[13:03:18] <Jymmm> Heh, I used to build 6ft long, 600Watt/inch UV Curing systems
[13:03:29] <djdelorie> the 8 degree spec means film will only get exposed by the LEDs directly above it, not some LED way off to the side
[13:03:40] <djdelorie> and I don't lose energy exposing the walls of the box :-)
[13:04:09] <IchGuckLive> agree i useed this 2
[13:04:29] <djdelorie> the whole box consumes 7 watts when running
[13:04:58] <IchGuckLive> Jymmm: for burning pictures into a female skin instat of tatoo
[13:05:00] <djdelorie> well, 8 including the current regulator losses
[13:05:13] <Jymmm> IchGuckLive: Printing presses
[13:05:14] <cylly2> *grrr*... just counted the wires on one iof the Steppers for the new CNC... on wire missing... *repair* ... -> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=13071 (click on tne pic to resize)
[13:05:28] <djdelorie> hey, there's a custom zervice - inverted "tan tatoos"
[13:06:05] <IchGuckLive> Jymmm: yeah but there are outsourced available on ebay for a view hundred dollars
[13:06:20] <Jymmm> 43K Watts per bulb + 5HP Blower to keep the thing cool enough not to melt the solid aluminum reflector
[13:06:52] <IchGuckLive> heavy duty
[13:07:11] <djdelorie> "how long until it's... oh wait, it's done."
[13:07:36] <IchGuckLive> pizza by for me today
[13:07:42] * djdelorie has a soldering iron like that
[13:07:51] <Jymmm> Yeah, I saw the blower go out once. the reflector looked like a melted candle
[13:08:38] <djdelorie> Jymmm: that's when you realize that redundancy is a good thing ;-)
[13:08:55] <djdelorie> water cooled FTW!
[13:09:34] <Jymmm> djdelorie: Oh yeah, water line break on a 43K Watt bulb, homie dont play that!
[13:10:01] <djdelorie> if you blow out the bulb, at least you won't melt the reflector ;-)
[13:10:29] <Jymmm> djdelorie: No, just make sure the client doesn't remove the hose clamp
[13:10:57] <djdelorie> or use non-removable (or hard-to-removable) connections
[13:11:01] <skunkworks> just heard a news clip about a guy that just got an portable artificial heart. The supply pack has 2 batteries that runs the heart (air pump) for 2 hours a piece.. That doesn't seem like enough time in an emergency...
[13:11:08] <Thetawaves> wth is this? http://moglice.com/index.php
[13:11:13] <Thetawaves> moldable bearing material
[13:11:13] <Jymmm> djdelorie: custom solid alumnum reflectors FAR cheaper than 60W/in UV bulbs
[13:11:15] <djdelorie> note: this is the same set of issues for watercooling thousand-dollar CPUs
[13:11:17] <Loetmichel> [20:00] <djdelorie> if you blow out the bulb, at least you won't melt the reflector ;-) <- no, instad the explosive vaporizing will cause it to Shatter all over the place ;-)
[13:12:05] <Loetmichel> Thetawaves: moglice is a GREAT way of refurbishing ways and glide bearings
[13:12:27] <Loetmichel> V-groove ways and flat ones
[13:12:32] <djdelorie> Thetawaves: in the olden days, liquid lead was poured in place to make custom bearings. Might be a similar application.
[13:12:38] <joe9> djdelorie: with using feeler gauges, don't the cutters grind out and have an incorrect depth after some time?
[13:12:42] <skunkworks> babot
[13:13:14] <djdelorie> joe9: I don't push them that hard; either the feeler fits without pressure, or doesn't fit at all. There's no "grinding" involved
[13:13:22] <Loetmichel> djdelorie: with the difference taht moglice is teflon-based and has a MUCH better glide factor AND is mor rigid than lead
[13:13:27] <djdelorie> and the feeler is brass, vs a solid carbide bit? No contest there...
[13:13:29] <Loetmichel> more
[13:13:38] <djdelorie> Loetmichel: and not toxic...
[13:13:47] <Loetmichel> lead isnt
[13:13:55] <Loetmichel> ... even if ingested
[13:13:56] <joe9> djdelorie: i meant, not while measuring. you measure it, run it and then while running, the cutter might lose some sharpness or edge
[13:14:12] <Loetmichel> ... only the oxides and sulfides of lead are dagerous
[13:14:12] <joe9> djdelorie: does that make sense? I am talking about after the measurement
[13:14:22] <joe9> djdelorie: after a few runs or so.
[13:14:28] <djdelorie> joe9: sure, but let's hope that's negligible over the length of the job
[13:14:29] <Loetmichel> because they are water soluble
[13:14:53] <djdelorie> Leotmichel: I know, try explaining that to the Eu RoHS committee
[13:15:23] <joe9> djdelorie: that is not a issue with feeler guage, in particular, that could happen with anything where the depth is measured before the job.
[13:15:33] * Loetmichel works for military... so i have the advantage to solder with the good old 60/40 ;-)
[13:15:35] <djdelorie> joe9: in commercial PCB shops, the computer keeps track of how many holes each bit has drilled, and swaps them out when they've "expired"
[13:15:45] <joe9> oh, ok.
[13:17:00] <alex4nder> joe9: you're going to want to touch off between a reference and the PCB, and then tool change and just use the reference
[13:17:04] <alex4nder> at least that's what I'd do
[13:17:23] <Thetawaves> Loetmichel, i'm thinking about using this to do the main slide in a lathe project
[13:17:51] <joe9> alex4nder: sorry if this is a dumb question. what do you mean by "reference"?
[13:18:06] <joe9> the taig table or something like that?
[13:18:07] <skunkworks> I use a round ground 'standard' a lot for touching off a tool. (set the jog to .001 -> jog in - roll round under tool -> repeat until the round doesn't go under the tool) (I use a 1/2 inch round so then my touchoff would be .5 for the surface to be 0)
[13:19:05] <alex4nder> joe9: something like the "pro touch off gage" that was posted earlier.
[13:19:07] <joe9> skunkworks: that is exactly what cradek recommends too. and it is sounds the easiest way to go.
[13:19:24] <joe9> alex4nder: ok, thanks. got it.
[13:19:34] <skunkworks> I think I picked it up from those guys at one of the fests... works very well :)
[13:19:36] <Loetmichel> Thetawaves: if you have low speed and high forces you will find noting better
[13:19:41] <alex4nder> if I changed tools more often on jobs, I'd get one.
[13:19:59] <Loetmichel> nit for high rpm Spindle bearings, though
[13:20:06] <joe9> alex4nder: just wanted to check, the reference also checks the tool tip length too, correct?
[13:20:19] <alex4nder> joe9: that's all it does.. it's for touching off Z
[13:20:38] <alex4nder> because with a taig you don't have a reasonable quick tool change option with fixed Z
[13:20:42] <Loetmichel> and it doesent spare you the scraping of the ways, the moglice goes just in the slide for a better fit
[13:21:02] <alex4nder> so you have to touchoff Z whenever you change the spindle's setup
[13:21:23] <alex4nder> i.e. unscrew collet nut, replace whatever, rescrew nut, touch off Z
[13:22:30] <joe9> alex4nder: do you have this? http://www.edgetechnologyproducts.com/pro-touch-off-gage.html or is it a different model?
[13:22:59] <alex4nder> I don't yet,. I don't change the spindle configuration enough during runs to need one.
[13:23:39] <joe9> alex4nder: ok, thanks. it is around $74
[13:23:47] <joe9> seems like a good buy.
[13:24:24] <ReadError> thats awesome
[13:24:25] <joe9> it is basically a dial indicator in a fitting.
[13:24:36] <ReadError> i was thinking i had to use a centering bit
[13:24:44] <ReadError> and put it on exactly 1 point
[13:24:52] <alex4nder> that won't replace a centering bit
[13:25:13] <alex4nder> centering is for X-Y
[13:26:40] <ReadError> oh thats for depth
[13:26:54] <ReadError> joe9: did you manage to get everything going?
[13:27:14] <joe9> i have the homing / limit switches working.
[13:27:33] <joe9> now, I am learning about "touch off".
[13:28:09] <djdelorie> joe9: the only trick to understanding "touch off" is realizing that there's a machine origin, and a part origin. Touching off is just how you tell linuxcnc "this point on the machine is this other point on the part"
[13:28:44] <djdelorie> so you can use a 1/4" drill bit to check the height of your milling bit, then tell linuxcnc "this Z position is 0.25 in part-space"
[13:29:40] <joe9> djdelorie: thanks.
[13:30:33] <joe9> djdelorie: i read how pcb's are bad on the cutters and I am thinking if the touching-off needs to be more often (in the middle of a job) to ensure that everything is fine.
[13:30:42] <joe9> and that the cuts are not too deep or too shallow.
[13:30:48] <djdelorie> so, for example, if you had g-code that carved your logo, you could re-use it on all your projects by just "touching off" where you want the logo to be
[13:31:26] <djdelorie> joe9: I would hope that once you start a pcb milling job, you wouldn't have to stop it and recalibrate partway through. If you find you're doing that a lot, add an automatic Z touch-off and code it ever so many minutes in the job file
[13:31:52] <djdelorie> but don't worry about stuff like that until it becomes a problem! I think you're just making more worry for yourself. Cut first, complain later :-)
[13:32:24] <joe9> djdelorie: yes, the "automatic Z touch-off" was what I was thinking. "but don't worry about stuff like that until it becomes a problem!" -- sound advice.
[13:32:43] <joe9> "Cut first, complain later" -- perfect sense.
[13:34:36] <djdelorie> hmmm... cnc drill sharpener... DAMN YOU OVERKILL GENE!!!
[13:36:50] <Jymmm> not as ad as cnc pencil sharpener
[13:37:03] <Jymmm> s/ad/bad/
[13:42:50] <Jymmm> or as scary as a cnc toilet!
[13:43:44] <djdelorie> touch off... he he he... feed rate SLOWER THIS TIME... flood coolant... ESTOP! ESTOP! ESTOP!
[13:45:06] <Jymmm> Well, to be honest, the Japanese got the robotic toilet down to a science
[13:45:18] <Jymmm> $6000 toilet
[13:45:43] <djdelorie> oripoomi
[13:46:14] <Jymmm> heated seat, no touch lid raise/lower, then warm water jets for cleaning, and warm air for drying, etc
[13:48:31] <djdelorie> reminds me of the scene in Cars 2 where Mater tries to figure out all the Japanese button labels...
[13:48:35] <FinboySlick> Jymmm: You should be a salesman, now I want one.
[13:48:44] <Jymmm> FinboySlick: lol
[13:49:43] <Jymmm> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KU_vNb_XkTM
[13:49:43] <djdelorie> make sure it has an e-stop button
[13:50:41] <Jymmm> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJazvumHNyk&feature=fvwp&NR=1
[13:51:34] <isssy> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJVC7cctiVk&feature=endscreen&NR=1
[13:51:38] <isssy> german one
[13:51:39] <djdelorie> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9-2pvy5mM8
[13:55:22] <joe9> any one has any thoughts on this set of videos http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U99asuDT97I&feature=related
[13:56:12] <Jymmm> no soap or towels in jp toilets?!
[13:56:17] <alex4nder> joe9: they're cool
[13:56:34] <alex4nder> joe9: just remember that your machine isn't as rigid as those
[13:56:45] <alex4nder> don't load up any steel and expect 30 IPM straight cuts
[13:58:19] <joe9> ok, thanks.
[13:59:19] <JT-Shop> seems to be some good general info
[14:02:20] <djdelorie> JT-Shop: what *are* the expectations wrt milling steel in a "hobby" cnc machine?
[14:02:45] <djdelorie> is it just a matter of reducing the chipload until your machine can handle it?
[14:03:38] <JT-Shop> I don't have a hobby cnc machine but yea that makes sense to reduce chipload until the spindle can handle it, the only problem then becomes heat buildup in the part when you don't remove enough material
[14:04:12] <archivist> and watch for part bending too
[14:04:34] <joe9> harbor freight has this for $2.79: http://www.harborfreight.com/32-piece-sae-metric-feeler-gauge-32214.html
[14:04:43] <JT-Shop> I've machined RC~55 steel dry and as long as I pulled a big enough chip the material stayed cool
[14:05:39] <djdelorie> so better to try it with my 1.5hp router head, than the 55kRPM air spindle head?
[14:05:46] <ds3> JT-Shop: did you get to clean up those chips by hand?
[14:05:50] <djdelorie> big slow cuts better than small fast cuts?
[14:06:16] <archivist> djdelorie, yes, get under the skin
[14:06:17] <JT-Shop> well the SFM needs to be in the range for the material if possible
[14:06:45] <JT-Shop> ds3: no, the chips were too hot!
[14:06:49] * djdelorie wonders if my speed control fob would make things better, or worse, for the poor router... ;-)
[14:07:08] <djdelorie> too many projects, not enough time! :-P
[14:07:15] <archivist> djdelorie, work hardening materials need care
[14:07:16] <JT-Shop> joe9: do you have an edge finder?
[14:07:21] <ds3> JT-Shop: aren't they also sharper then glass?
[14:07:23] <joe9> JT-Shop: no.
[14:08:01] <JT-Shop> are you going to have a vise on there?
[14:08:59] <joe9> JT-Shop: not sure yet. I am thinking of mounting a wood piece almost the size of the table. mill the top to make sure that it is not slanted or horizontal.
[14:09:26] <joe9> then drill 4 holes and use them to mount my pcb piece on it.
[14:10:00] <JT-Shop> ok, then you won't need an edge finder
[14:10:18] <JT-Shop> do you have a dowel pin of any size?
[14:10:35] <djdelorie> joe9: that's pretty much what I did for pcb drilling, but for milling a vacuum setup might be better. Again, try first, see if you need it, it depends on how flat your pcb stock is
[14:10:53] <joe9> JT-Shop: i have a punch set from Harborfreight, which, I can use as a dowel pin.
[14:11:04] <cradek> I flatten my pcb stock before use, just by checking with a straightedge and bending it
[14:11:11] <joe9> JT-Shop: the feeler gauge seems quicker than using a dowel pin.
[14:11:18] <cradek> then it's close enough for double sided tape to hold it flat to the table
[14:11:23] <joe9> cradek: how do you flatten it?
[14:11:30] <cradek> I bend it
[14:11:43] <cradek> it's surprisingly flexible and it holds a bend
[14:11:50] <JT-Shop> the dowel is faster and safer as your not moving the tool down against an immovable object
[14:11:56] <ds3> cradek: so you machine pcbs dry?
[14:12:06] <cradek> yes
[14:12:16] <cradek> would have never thought of wetting them
[14:12:21] <ds3> cradek: how do you prevent fiberglass dust from getting all over?
[14:12:30] <djdelorie> don't cut the fiberglass part :-)
[14:12:39] <cradek> yeah you're cutting way too deep if you're getting a lot of it
[14:12:45] <JT-Shop> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmRUJk0ptN4
[14:12:58] <ds3> doesn't a layer of fiberglass crumble when you take off the copper?
[14:13:08] <cradek> what do you mean crumble?
[14:13:12] <joe9> with any special equipment. will
[14:13:27] <ds3> as in the cutter will cut strands of glass stuck to the back of the copper
[14:13:37] <ds3> thus generating fiberglass dust
[14:13:44] <cradek> sure, there's some dust
[14:13:55] <joe9> jt-shop: re "the dowel is faster and safer as your not moving the tool down against an immovable object" -- why not just bring the tool tip close enough and use the feeler guage to figure out which one slides through?
[14:13:55] <cradek> machining is messy, vacuum it up when you're done
[14:14:07] <archivist> if worried use a vacuum cleaner
[14:14:11] <cradek> joe9: you should try both methods and use what you think is best
[14:14:26] <ds3> oh so it won't grind your leadscrews to obvillian in one session?
[14:14:48] <JT-Shop> joe9: did you watch the video
[14:15:02] <joe9> JT-Shop: yes, I just saw that.
[14:15:15] <JT-Shop> because it just takes longer to try a bunch of feeler gauges
[14:15:21] <ds3> cradek: what about when you are drilling it?
[14:15:23] <joe9> were you jogging the machine by hand?
[14:15:36] <JT-Shop> and it is prone to mistakes as your always having to enter a different number
[14:15:42] <JT-Shop> yes with a MPG
[14:15:50] <joe9> jt-shop: were you jogging the machine by hand?
[14:16:02] <JT-Shop> joe9: yes, with a MPG
[14:16:11] <joe9> oh, what is a MPG?
[14:16:16] <cradek> JT-Shop: nice video. about 10 seconds to measure a tool very precisely.
[14:16:26] <JT-Shop> Manual Pulse Generator
[14:16:32] <joe9> jt-shop, nice video. thanks.
[14:16:56] <JT-Shop> yes, you taught me well cradek
[14:16:57] <cradek> at the end you can see the dowel move more and more each increment
[14:17:18] <cradek> it's even easier by feel
[14:17:23] <JT-Shop> joe9: cradek taught me how to do that
[14:17:24] <joe9> jt-shop. the MPG thing seems to help. When I jog manually using the PgUp/PgDown, I am not able to get it to work correctly.
[14:17:35] <joe9> it either overshoots or does not move.
[14:17:43] <JT-Shop> joe9: set the increment to 0.001"
[14:17:48] <joe9> the response makes it worthless to try what you were doing.
[14:17:58] <cradek> either that or use a VERY slow continuous jog
[14:18:23] <JT-Shop> set the increment so each press gives you a specific amount of movement
[14:19:29] <joe9> jt-shop: my problem is when I press Pg-Up/Pg-Down, sometimes I get movement and sometimes I don't.
[14:19:30] <archivist> I often measure a machined part to set offsets
[14:19:59] <joe9> not sure if that has anything to do with using linuxcnc over ssh. but, it is pretty unresponsive.
[14:20:00] <JT-Shop> joe9: when my MPG on the BP knee mill has a headache I just use the buttons and 0.010 for rough position and 0.001 for final position
[14:20:01] <archivist> as long as its one step or less
[14:20:46] <archivist> why are you using ssh
[14:20:47] <joe9> cradek: "either that or use a VERY slow continuous jog" -- jog using PgUp and PgDown correct?
[14:21:00] <cradek> yes
[14:21:07] <JT-Shop> why are you using ssh?
[14:21:11] <FinboySlick> joe9: What's your front-end for using it over ssh?
[14:21:22] <joe9> archivist: because I have better monitors on my main machine
[14:21:36] <joe9> FinboySlick: what do you mean ssh -X
[14:21:46] <joe9> FinboySlick: what do you mean? ssh -X
[14:21:50] <FinboySlick> joe9: So you use Axis?
[14:21:53] <joe9> yes.
[14:22:05] <djdelorie> joe9: you're just redirecting the X display to a different X server, right?
[14:22:10] <joe9> yes.
[14:22:18] <djdelorie> yeah, that shouldn't change anything
[14:22:29] <FinboySlick> joe9: Did you have to do any special steps for that. I never could get it to work.
[14:22:35] <djdelorie> but you probably do want to change your jog mode from continuous to one of the steps
[14:22:50] <djdelorie> FinboySlick: just "ssh -X some.machine" and run axis
[14:23:04] <joe9> ok, will try the jog mode of "steps". thanks.
[14:23:27] <djdelorie> with step mode, you pick a distance, and each time you hit the pgup/pgdown key, it moves that amount,
[14:23:36] <FinboySlick> djdelorie: I'm familiar with remote X displays. It just didn't seem to like the small realtime window that pops up when you start AXIS for some reason.
[14:23:39] <djdelorie> so it becomes "tap tap tap tap tap" instead of "tap hold release"
[14:23:52] <joe9> FinboySlick: ssh -Y -p sshport -l user machineip
[14:24:07] <archivist> even with continuous you can tap tap tap
[14:24:14] <FinboySlick> joe9: Yeah, that's what I used.
[14:24:16] <joe9> i wrapped it up in an expect script so it does all that automatically.
[14:24:32] <joe9> export DISPLAY=...
[14:24:50] <djdelorie> the -X is supposed to set $DISPLAY for you
[14:24:55] <JT-Shop> so your keyboard is not connected to the machine PC?
[14:25:06] <joe9> instead of the above, try this: export XAUTHORITY=/../.Xauthority
[14:25:22] <joe9> JT-Shop: yes.
[14:25:27] <FinboySlick> joe9: Yes, that too. As I said, I've used remote X displays before... It's just AXIS that didn't seem to work. I thought it was related to some RTAI stuff.
[14:25:45] <joe9> FinboySlick: i could not get stepconf to work. but axis worked
[14:26:08] <joe9> FinboySlick: and, you did the ulimit too?
[14:26:15] <joe9> ulimit -l 1024000
[14:26:27] <Jymmm> Different http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3WdFTf2kBM&feature=related
[14:26:37] <joe9> and the rip-environment
[14:27:34] <djdelorie> oh great, cnc radios now...
[14:30:11] <FinboySlick> joe9: Maybe I was missing ulimit, it was a while back.
[14:30:33] <joe9> and, the whole thing works in bash.
[14:30:39] <JT-Shop> joe9: do you have enough hardware inputs to have a jog button in halui?
[14:31:00] <joe9> and, ssh does not use login. so, after ssh'ing, do a su user again.
[14:31:30] <joe9> JT-Shop: i have one input on the Gecko G540 that I am not using.
[14:31:37] <joe9> JT-Shop: does that help?
[14:32:02] <JT-Shop> iirc you could select the axis in the gui and use one button to jog
[14:33:07] <joe9> jt-shop, that would be cool. will check it out. let me try the step mode again. from what I recall, it was working pretty flakily too.
[14:33:45] <JT-Shop> but don't know how well that would work without an up down selector of some sort... maybe a pyvcp button
[14:34:02] <JT-Shop> http://linuxcnc.org/docview/html/man/man1/halui.1.html
[14:34:12] <joe9> i think i will just set it "continuous mode" with a velocity of 0.05 mm /sec
[14:34:34] <joe9> and use the E-stop button to stop as soon as the dowel pin rolls under it.
[14:35:18] <joe9> and, instead of jogging it, I will use MDI to start it up.
[14:35:33] <joe9> the response is pretty cool with MDI. no issues there.
[14:39:26] <JT-Shop> there you go
[14:52:16] <Loetmichel> sooo, y axis done... and runs... now i will turn the mill over and doing x and z ;-) -> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=13074
[14:54:21] <JT-Shop> cool
[15:12:03] <mrsun> Loetmichel, motor not strong enough for direct drive?
[15:12:08] <mrsun> that looks like a backlash nightmare =)
[15:12:28] <Loetmichel> mrsun: no backlash
[15:12:35] <mrsun> just wait ;PO
[15:12:37] <Loetmichel> i.e less than a step
[15:12:54] <mrsun> looks very nice =)
[15:13:02] <Loetmichel> the motr mount is adjustable
[15:13:16] <Loetmichel> so if the gears wear down just adjust it ;-)
[15:13:30] <Loetmichel> and being them Polycarbonate that will not happen sooon
[15:14:22] <Jymmm> Would heat cause SS to rust?
[15:14:24] <Loetmichel> no, the direct drive would be less powerful AND the resolution will suffer
[15:14:37] <Loetmichel> Jymmm: whats ss?
[15:14:48] <Jymmm> Stainless steel
[15:15:01] <Loetmichel> o, just change colour
[15:15:05] <Loetmichel> no
[15:15:13] <mrsun> Jymmm, theres no such thing as rust free =)
[15:15:26] <mrsun> its just more or less resitant to corrosion =)
[15:15:29] <Jymmm> mrsun: This is significant rust
[15:15:36] <mrsun> Jymmm, hmm, some kind of acid maybE?
[15:15:41] <Tom_itx> Jymmm it was also made in china
[15:15:50] <mrsun> playing with sulfuric acid or something? :)
[15:15:51] <Jymmm> not that I"m aware of, just water in them
[15:16:02] <Tom_itx> Jymmm, it may just be stainless 'color'
[15:16:08] <mrsun> Jymmm, hmm, sounds strange .. should not rust like that =)
[15:16:25] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: No, they say 18/8 SS
[15:16:32] <Tom_itx> yeah well
[15:16:38] <Tom_itx> we're talking about china here
[15:17:06] <Jymmm> Sure, I just wanted to make sure, as I've had food service SS, but never rusted that I saw
[15:17:47] <Jymmm> But I usually dont toss into 1300F coals either so I didn't know
[15:18:13] <mrsun> Jymmm, using it in fires? :)
[15:18:16] <Jymmm> heat marks, yes. but not rust.
[15:18:28] <Jymmm> mrsun: Yeah, to boil water in
[15:18:46] <mrsun> remember water is alot more "reactive" when its hot also =)
[15:19:11] <mrsun> but still shouldnt rust just like that
[15:19:21] <Jymmm> Sure, I expect some deposits, but these botles were never stored that way and never for long term
[15:19:30] <mrsun> have some SS bars laying around in the yard, been there for 3 winters now and not a sign of rust on them =)
[15:19:38] <mrsun> tho thats swedish steel :P
[15:19:58] <Jymmm> mrsun: swedish fire steel?
[15:20:07] <mrsun> huh ? :P
[15:20:12] <Jymmm> mrsun: if so, I'll take 10 feet please =)
[15:20:12] <mrsun> the bars is just ordenary bars :P
[15:20:14] <mrsun> laying around :P
[15:20:19] <Jymmm> bah
[15:20:49] <mrsun> got some acid resistant tubing that i got for free but dont wnt to send stuffa round the world ;P
[15:21:19] <Tom_itx> there isn't a 18/8 stainless those are percentages of composition
[15:21:47] <Tom_itx> stainless it typed from 201 to 384 depending on the composition
[15:22:17] <Tom_itx> there may be more since this book was published
[15:22:18] <Jymmm> Nah, just need to be able to boil water in. They are "subero" brand SS bottles. the MFR is replacing them on the photos I sent, but her boss now wants the bottles and is sending a calltag for them. At least they care and are looking into it.
[15:22:58] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: Yes, but 18/8 is the nomincalture they use in the food service industry is all
[15:23:08] <Tom_itx> the '18' is likely Cr and the 8 is likely Ni
[15:23:09] <Jymmm> also the NSF I believe
[15:23:15] <mrsun> bottles ? :) sure it isnt just ordenary steel with a plastic coating? :P
[15:23:17] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: Yes,
[15:23:24] <Tom_itx> what do they know about metal composition?
[15:23:33] <Jymmm> mrsun: No, I shoved them into 1300F coals
[15:23:45] <mrsun> then the plastic is gone then? ;PO
[15:23:55] <mrsun> and voila, rust ;P
[15:24:13] <Tom_itx> coal is carbon isn't it?
[15:24:20] <Loetmichel> and being a pvc coating: some chlorine to speed up the rust ;.-)
[15:24:25] <mrsun> Tom_itx, yes
[15:24:34] <Jymmm> the rust ins't on the outside, it's on the INSIDE only
[15:24:37] <Tom_itx> maybe you altered the metal composition
[15:24:45] <mrsun> Jymmm, well isnt the inside where the water is? :)
[15:24:49] <Tom_itx> i'm gonna call the mfg and tell em what you did to their product
[15:25:04] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: want the number?
[15:25:09] <Tom_itx> not really
[15:25:36] <Jymmm> It's not uncommon to do this, actually other mfr talk about doing this all the time.
[15:25:50] <Tom_itx> heat them to 1300F with some other heat source and see if they rust as much
[15:26:45] <Jymmm> all i have is a proane torch
[15:27:02] <mrsun> Jymmm, what kind coal is it ?
[15:27:10] <mrsun> "stone" coal ?
[15:27:11] <Jymmm> mrsun: bbq
[15:27:12] <Tom_itx> you should talk to JT-Shop about getting you some bigger tools to work with
[15:27:38] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: no place for them =)
[15:27:50] <Tom_itx> oh he can fix you up with that too
[15:27:51] <mrsun> Jymmm, so charcoal ? ... if its not fully destilled it can contain some very corrosive stuff =)
[15:28:08] <mrsun> and i think it still does even when its well made
[15:28:18] <Tom_itx> the truth finally comes out
[15:28:38] <Jymmm> sure, but only the INSIDE rusted, not the outside which it perfectly fine actually
[15:28:45] <Tom_itx> you likely altered the chemical makeup
[15:28:56] <mrsun> Jymmm, ahh... im tired sorry =)
[15:29:29] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: I'm not the first to toss a SS container in a fire
[15:30:06] <Tom_itx> and likely not the first to have one corrode
[15:30:19] <Jymmm> It's one of the min reasons ppl are buying them now over aluminum ones
[15:30:24] <Jymmm> main
[15:30:56] <Jymmm> Actually Kleen Kateen talks about doing this, but with no issues.
[15:32:29] <Jymmm> Klean Kanteens® are constructed from high-quality, 18/8, food-grade stainless steel. The numbers stand for the percentages of chromium and nickel in the steel, 18% and 8% respectively. Chromium increases the metal's hardness and nickel gives it strength. Together they also make stainless steel highly resistant to stain or rust.
[15:33:25] <Jymmm> In a pinch, single-walled Kanteen® Classic and Wide bottles with the Brushed Stainless finish can be placed on a fire or a stove as long as you take the cap off. Do not do this with a colored bottle, as it will damage the paint.
[15:34:07] <Jymmm> Never heard of this....
[15:34:18] <Jymmm> The food-grade stainless steel in a Klean Kanteen® is highly rust resistant. If your bottle appears to have rusted, it’s probably just a mark left behind from the electropolishing process, which smooths the surface of the metal and makes it shiny. Sometimes electrolytes left on the surface turn a rust color, but it’s harmless.
[15:50:44] <cra_> Bit of a wierd question, but if you had an unlabeled BOB and couldn`t check for continuity electrically, how could you test to determine the number of a certain pin
[15:52:41] <cra_> basically, I have a wierd TB6560 board and expect two pins to be the unused pin 16 and 17. There is no continuity but I`m almost certain this is due to opto-isolators and other circuitary. I need a test using emc by setting something in the software and measuring an output at the pin to check it is the pin that has been set.
[15:52:45] <cra_> any thoughts?
[15:53:15] <cradek> if you think it's outputs, you can just turn one at a time on. there's not many outputs to try.
[15:53:57] <cra_> I`m quite a noob really...when you just say "turn them on" ... that sounds perfect, and just test when it comes on. But how and what exactly am I turning on.
[15:54:12] <cra_> You see what I mean, how do I actually tell output pin 16 to come on?
[15:55:53] <cradek> run linuxcnc with a parallel port based config. while it's running, run at a shell halcmd -kf, to get a hal prompt. then setp parport.0.pin-14-out 1, etc etc
[15:56:25] <cra_> :-S shell. .... halcmd !!!
[15:57:02] <cra_> you going to be still on in 5 mins, I`ll just get to my machine
[16:04:17] <cra_> ok, so I`m in linuxcnc... can you please explain "run at a shell halcmd -kf" please?
[16:07:26] <cra_> I see show hal config, hal meter, hal scope ???
[16:07:37] <JT-Shop> cra_: there is a parallel port tester on the forum
[16:09:29] <JT-Shop> cra_: if your interested http://linuxcnc.org/index.php/english/component/kunena/?func=view&id=4743&catid=18#4743
[16:09:39] <skunkworks> cra_: try ALT-T
[16:10:22] <cra_> JT - will try the PP tester - that looks fairly simple!
[16:12:13] <cra_> OK...sorrry!! I really am a linux noob. when it says put them in the same directory and then run a terminal... ?? What any directory and I don`t need to point to them with the terminal code?
[16:13:11] <DJ9DJ> gn8
[16:14:43] <cra_> when I type in terminal, it says invalid option --'l'
[16:15:09] <cra_> halrun -I -f ptest.hal is what it tells me to write
[16:17:06] <JT-Shop> cra_: put both files in any directory and cd to that directory the do the halrun part
[16:17:17] <cra_> cd ???
[16:17:21] <cra_> :( sorry!
[16:17:31] <JT-Shop> http://linuxcnc.org/docview/html/common/Linux_FAQ.html#_terminal_commands_a_id_sec_terminal_commands_a
[16:17:32] <Jymmm> cd == change directory
[16:17:40] <cra_> ahh!
[16:18:04] <JT-Shop> cra_: not a problem if you don't know something just ask
[16:18:14] <cra_> so I`ve put them in my home directory
[16:18:21] <JT-Shop> that makes it easy
[16:18:23] <cra_> cd home/
[16:18:26] <JT-Shop> open a terminal
[16:18:32] <Jymmm> cd ~
[16:19:13] <cra_> terminal is open
[16:19:19] <JT-Shop> do a ls
[16:19:26] <JT-Shop> this will list the files
[16:19:28] <cra_> chris@chirs-desktop:-$
[16:20:13] <cra_> yes, I see both ptest.hal and ptest.xml files
[16:21:09] <JT-Shop> ok then the halrun command
[16:21:23] <cra_> WAHOO!
[16:23:34] <JT-Shop> I take it that it worked...
[16:25:10] <cra_> yes.... but unfortunately, I don`t seem to see any output from these random pins on the TB6560!!
[16:25:17] <cra_> I HATE this board.
[16:27:51] <cra_> Can I please clarify something with you guys who clearly know what you are doing. I trying to control my spindle so I need a spare output. On the tB6560, pin 16 and 17 are not used. Using this schematic here: http://www.drkfs.net/REVERSESTEPPER.pdf there is a section towards the top left, that shows pin 16 and 17 in a 4 block connector labeled "PL3 4WP DSC".... it shows 16 and 17 on the two ends with two grounds in the centre.
[16:28:49] <cra_> So I`m stood here now with my multimeter, I`ve hooked into a ground and connected to one of the outer pins and I`m right in thinking that when I hit either the 16 or 17 output on this PP tester so it goes green, I should see it jump to +5v ???
[16:28:53] <cra_> ....and I`m not!
[16:29:05] <djdelorie> at least 2.2v
[16:29:14] <djdelorie> on the parallel port
[16:29:32] <cra_> BUT...there is continuity between the the two centre pins and ground! ...so clearly the schematic must be right in some ways!
[16:30:24] <djdelorie> the schematic shows output pin 16 tied to ground...
[16:30:44] <djdelorie> or are you talking about the parallel port pin 16?
[16:31:21] <cra_> does it... ? I`m talking about the parallel port pin 16
[16:31:38] <cra_> I want to use the parallel port 16, as it is unused on this board, to control my spindle.
[16:32:41] <djdelorie> based on that schematic, pp pins 16 and 17 are pull-up-only for "PL3" pins A and D
[16:32:52] <djdelorie> or they're inputs :-)
[16:33:03] <djdelorie> nope, outputs
[16:33:36] <cra_> so does this mean I can tap onto them for an output?
[16:34:41] <djdelorie> the 1N4136 looks like a *91* volt zener. Wow.
[16:34:55] <djdelorie> do you have anything plugged in to PL3 ?
[16:35:04] <cra_> that doesn`t mean a lot to me???!
[16:35:32] <djdelorie> which that?
[16:36:15] <cra_> PL3.... one sec
[16:36:33] <cra_> PL3 - is this the 4 pins socket?
[16:36:37] <djdelorie> yes
[16:37:07] <cra_> No,,,,this is a totally mystical socket that is not discussed in the manual or any info on the net...
[16:37:46] <djdelorie> based on the schematic, you could connect two opto's to that socket, one on pins A-B and one on pints D-C (B and C are ground), with a suitable series resistor.
[16:37:49] <cra_> I presumed if I connected to one of the end pins on PL3 I could take an output for my spindle from the parallel port 16 or 17, depending on which outer one I used.
[16:38:07] <djdelorie> to test, connect a resistor across A-B or D-C, and watch the voltage across it with a multimeter
[16:38:59] <djdelorie> you *should* be able to test for continuity from PP pins 16/17 to PL3 pins A/D, but only in one direction - if you swap the two leads, you'll get nothing
[16:39:01] <cra_> OK, I can try that....I was just simply using the parallel port tester before and presumed I should see a voltage when I took 16 or 17 high?
[16:39:17] <djdelorie> it looks that way, yes.
[16:39:53] <djdelorie> assuming the schematic is correct, D5 and D19 are installed, and they're not blown
[16:41:11] <cra_> AHHH! I`m sorry, I`m fairly useless at all this. OK, just tested and I`ve discovered that I get a 4.5v output on this pin but it raises to 7.5v when I turn on pin 16!!
[16:41:14] <cra_> WOOP!
[16:41:37] <djdelorie> hmm.... that shouldn't happen, what are you using for a ground reference?
[16:41:48] <cra_> the ground pin next to it
[16:41:59] <djdelorie> and you might need a resistor across those too, to get a reliable reading
[16:42:31] <cra_> Please can I ask you a question based on what I`m even trying to use this for?
[16:42:32] <djdelorie> 270 ohms or so
[16:42:39] <djdelorie> sure
[16:44:44] <cra_> I`ve made myself a DC brushless motor which is working really well... I`m currently powering it with a ATX PC supply and that runs with an ESC driver. Into the driver is a servo tester, the servo tester has a pot on in and turning the pot changes the speed of the motor. Only three lines go from the ESC driver to the servo tester +/ - to give it power and then a signal line. I`ve been told that if I can pull off an output from 16 or 1
[16:44:51] <ReadError> OMG OMG OMG
[16:44:53] <ReadError> IT SHIPPED!
[16:44:56] <ReadError> *dances*
[16:45:19] <djdelorie> cra_: your sentence ended with "16 or 1"
[16:45:28] <cra_> spindle, I can get linuxcnc to generate the speed control for the motor automatically rather than using servo.
[16:45:40] <cra_> djelorie....huh?
[16:45:48] <djdelorie> there's a length limit to how much you can type at once in IRC
[16:45:59] <cra_> Try again....
[16:46:02] <cra_> I`ve made myself a DC brushless motor which is working really well... I`m currently powering it with a ATX PC supply and that runs with an ESC driver. Into the driver is a servo tester, the servo tester has a pot on in and turning the pot changes the speed of the motor.
[16:46:16] <cra_> Only three lines go from the ESC driver to the servo tester +/ - to give it power and then a signal line. I`ve been told that if I can pull off an output from 16 or 17 and set one of these to....
[16:46:18] <Jymmm> ReadError: Yes, to zipcode 00805
[16:46:28] <cra_> spindle, I can get linuxcnc to generate the speed control for the motor automatically rather than using servo.
[16:47:06] <djdelorie> cra_: see http://www.delorie.com/tmp/irc-cra.png
[16:47:44] <djdelorie> yup, you need an "RC servo pulse" output I guess?
[16:47:52] <cra_> djelorie: I don`t understand? I haven`t copied to an image.
[16:48:22] <djdelorie> did you look at the url I posted? It's just an example of your sentence getting cut off by IRC
[16:48:30] <djdelorie> nothing to do with your servo tester ;-)
[16:48:41] <cra_> ahhh!
[16:49:07] <ReadError> its coming in 2 boxes
[16:49:10] <ReadError> hope thats normal ;/
[16:49:36] <cra_> so it should be possible. Can I ask then...do I need any other components or can I simply take a wire from pin 16 to my ESC driver?
[16:49:40] <Jymmm> ReadError: common for oversized thngs
[16:49:50] <Jymmm> cheaper too
[16:50:01] <Jymmm> no oversized/wight fees
[16:50:07] <Jymmm> weight
[16:50:09] <djdelorie> if your server driver is a normal RC servo driver, it wants volts near 0 and near 5v. So, since you're not quite getting that, try putting a resistor across the pins and check again
[16:50:16] <djdelorie> the resistor will help you get closer to 0 volts
[16:50:25] <Thetawaves> cra_, cool, i want to build a motor
[16:50:36] <djdelorie> ReadError: lots of my stuff comes in two boxes, if one of the parts is big and heavy and needs special padding
[16:51:00] <ReadError> too bad a2z kinda screwed me ;(
[16:51:03] <ReadError> ordered handles
[16:51:05] <ReadError> wait a week
[16:51:06] <Jymmm> djdelorie: That's a LOT of pr0n!
[16:51:07] <cra_> Thetawaves: I didn`t build the motor, I converted it to a spindle.
[16:51:14] <ReadError> they say "ohai, yea we dont have those"
[16:51:23] <Thetawaves> cra_, what motor?
[16:51:23] <ReadError> even though ebay said they had 2 ;(
[16:51:36] <djdelorie> cra_: the other alternative is to open up your box with PL3, take out those two diodes, and replace them with wires. Then PL3 is a direct connection to the pp pins
[16:51:50] <djdelorie> Jymmm: ?
[16:52:08] <Jymmm> djdelorie: dual boxes
[16:52:30] <cra_> what are the two diodes there for?
[16:52:35] <djdelorie> jointers, lathes, etc. "over the years" :-)
[16:52:41] <djdelorie> cra_: no idea
[16:53:03] <cra_> ThetaWaves: am I allowed to post a link to the forum I wrote up my motor build on, on here?
[16:53:16] <Thetawaves> i will murder you if you don't
[16:53:22] <JT-Shop> jyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyym http://imagebin.org/207979
[16:53:37] <cra_> djdelorie: what are they doing there in terms of electronically....is there any harm leaving them in?
[16:53:48] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: WOOHOO!
[16:54:03] <djdelorie> if you leave them in, you'll need a resistor to pull the signal back down to zero. It looks like they're set up for optos but not logic output
[16:54:06] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: I only see diesel, where be the powder???
[16:54:27] <djdelorie> JT-Shop: that's the weirdest looking CNC machine I've ever seen. Cool, though :-)
[16:54:30] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: And YOU HAVE NO BALLS!!!
[16:54:36] <cra_> http://www.raynerd.co.uk/?p=1562
[16:54:49] <Jymmm> djdelorie: It's a CNC PUNCH!
[16:55:27] <cra_> OK...I`m sorry, you keep telling me I need a resistor there, I`ll listen! OK, so about 280ohm and just literally between the pin and the ground next to it?
[16:56:10] <djdelorie> for testing, yes. 270 ohms is about right to simulate an optocoupler. For logic, you could get by with a larger value. The diode prevents the PP pin from pulling the signal back down, so you need something else to do that
[16:56:17] <cra_> Thetawaves - got some pics of it in pieces here so you can see in more detail how it is together.
[16:56:43] <cra_> AHHHHH! ...my little bit of electronics knowledge, that makes sense.
[16:57:27] <djdelorie> the diode also drops 0.7 volts or so, reducing the "high" voltage, if that's a problem, replacing the diode with a wire might help
[16:58:57] <cra_> It seems quite intrecate in there and I wouldn`t like to remove it. Would it work if I just jump wires over the top of it and soldered a wire to either leg of the diode that I can see.
[16:59:06] <cra_> I don`t want to damage the board pulling it out.
[16:59:12] <djdelorie> sure
[16:59:23] <JT-Shop> Jymmm: getting close man
[16:59:31] <Thetawaves> cra_, that thing is sweet
[16:59:35] <djdelorie> just solder jumpers across each diode, shorting them out
[16:59:49] <Thetawaves> did you fab the spindle bearing/housing?
[16:59:58] <cra_> yes.
[17:00:05] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: Cool beans!
[17:00:17] <djdelorie> ok you, how do you make your own collet? Or do you buy that part?
[17:00:28] <cra_> Thetawaves - it works very well so far!
[17:00:45] <Thetawaves> what rpms?
[17:01:03] <Tom_itx> JT-Shop that looks like it's about time to rock the neighborhood
[17:01:28] <djdelorie> cra_: you're using a "hobby" ESC to run that?
[17:01:57] <cra_> djdelorie - I have made my own er32 collet chuck in the past..... BUT for £16 I couldn`t beat a chinese straight shank one!!
[17:02:29] <djdelorie> the three wires coming from the ESC include power and ground, you could insert an opto-isolator in there if you wanted
[17:02:39] <cra_> t is not a hobby brand- some chip copy off ebay
[17:02:54] <djdelorie> I mean, it's for radio controlled airplanes
[17:03:22] <cra_> oh I see. Yes, that is right. Outrunner, brushless DC, yes
[17:04:19] <JT-Shop> Tom_itx: it's getting close, today is the first time of fitting the barrel on :-)
[17:04:23] <djdelorie> does the ESC provide the +5v or does your servo tester provide it?
[17:04:57] <cra_> the ESC provides it.
[17:05:12] <ssi> I have a spindle made from a bldc + ESC
[17:05:30] <cra_> bldc?
[17:05:35] <djdelorie> good, you'll need that if you put an opto in it
[17:05:36] <ssi> brushless dc motor
[17:05:39] <cra_> burshless!!
[17:05:46] <cra_> yes, sorry, got it!
[17:06:09] <cra_> can I be honest, what the hell does an opto look like... what would I even buy?
[17:06:25] <ssi> like a little dip or soic usually
[17:06:29] <ssi> they can come in lots of packages
[17:06:48] <ssi> single optos are often in a package the size of an 8 pin dip or soic, but with only 4 pins
[17:06:55] <djdelorie> random example: http://search.digikey.com/us/en/products/FOD817A300W/FOD817A300W-ND/1049597
[17:07:04] <cra_> can you recommend anything from ebay UK and I`ll order one now....
[17:07:09] <cra_> I presume I need one?
[17:07:14] <djdelorie> you don't *need* one
[17:07:21] <cra_> and would this reduce the need for me to short the diode?
[17:07:27] <cra_> reduce = remove
[17:07:31] <djdelorie> they provide electrical isolation between your PC and the high voltage motor stuff
[17:07:43] <djdelorie> I don't have any in my CNC machine
[17:08:07] <cra_> why not?
[17:08:15] <djdelorie> In that schematic you posted, all the PC817 things are optos. LED on one side shines on optotransistor on the other side
[17:08:30] <djdelorie> they're for paranoia, not functionality
[17:08:45] <cra_> lol
[17:08:48] <djdelorie> my paranoia went elsewhere that day
[17:09:25] <djdelorie> my advice: go without them for now, add them later if you feel like it
[17:09:32] <cra_> but in some ways, with these diodes in place and in an ideal world, me not wanting to solder anything direct to the board, they might be quite handy....
[17:09:33] <djdelorie> cut first, complain later! :-)
[17:09:42] <djdelorie> you'd just have to solder the optos
[17:10:02] <cra_> well if I don`t use them, I`ll have to short those diodes and I don`t like soldering in tight spaces....
[17:10:06] <djdelorie> with what you have now, the easiest path is a resistor across A-B and wire that right into your ESC
[17:10:35] <cra_> infact, I don`t even know what socket that even is!! I might have to solder directly to those pins anyway~!
[17:11:01] <djdelorie> in that case, just solder to the PP side of the diodes and be done with it :-)
[17:11:36] <cra_> lol, that is true!!
[17:12:59] <cra_> so actually....I can just solder a wire directly from the PP side of the diode and take that wire right the way to me ESC where the signal is currently coming in from the servo tester
[17:13:18] <djdelorie> sure. And ground.
[17:15:39] <cra_> ground??
[17:15:50] <djdelorie> you need more than *one* wire to make a circuit
[17:15:57] <cra_> ooops.
[17:16:25] <djdelorie> two wires; one goes to the PP side of the diode, for the "signal" to your ESC, and the other goes to ground, for the "gnd" to your ESC
[17:16:36] <ssi> does anyone know anything about the DC servo motors that keling sells?
[17:16:51] <cra_> So if I then take a wire from the ground next to it to the black ground wire coming from the esc. However, the red +5v won`t be connected to anything.
[17:17:00] <djdelorie> right
[17:17:09] <cra_> you`ve been a god..nice one.
[17:17:27] <djdelorie> just make sure all your "grounds" are the same potential before plugging it all together :-)
[17:17:35] <djdelorie> (which they SHOULD BE)
[17:19:26] <cra_> well I`m just thinking, the ground from the esc is from the "esc" ...then I`ll be linking that to a ground from the driver ..... !
[17:42:03] <ReadError> ssi
[17:42:07] <ReadError> you been to their new site?
[17:42:08] <ReadError> much nicer
[17:42:18] <ssi> no?
[17:42:20] <ReadError> http://www.automationtechnologiesinc.com/
[17:42:22] <ReadError> same place
[17:42:23] <ReadError> much better site
[17:42:35] <ssi> oh neat
[17:42:45] <ssi> that is in fact better :)
[17:42:55] <ReadError> We have changed its name to Automation Technology Inc
[17:42:55] <ReadError> Please Check Out Our New Website:
[17:42:55] <ReadError> www.automationtechnologiesinc.com
[17:43:00] <ReadError> ya
[17:43:06] <ReadError> much easier to navigate
[17:43:58] <ssi> much slower though
[17:43:58] <ssi> hahah
[17:44:02] <Thadius1> does anyone have any experience with "pycam"??
[17:44:24] <ssi> like, MUCH slower
[17:44:26] <ssi> painfully slow
[18:46:35] <Thetawaves> ...they were right when they said IGBTs fail shorted
[18:47:12] <pfred1> do they go snap crackle and pop?
[18:47:30] <Thetawaves> mine didn't
[18:47:37] <Thetawaves> just switched 120v ac into my motor
[18:47:58] <pfred1> throw another shrimp on the barbie mate!
[18:49:10] <pfred1> it is times like those that fuses start looking a lot better
[18:49:34] <Thetawaves> yeah
[18:52:05] <Valen> fuses are good mmmkay
[18:53:30] <pfred1> this is making me dizzy http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=EdWWvnrFA9k&NR=1
[18:53:41] <Tecan> (EdWWvnrFA9k) "5 Axis Machining" by "gerrygprs" is "Howto" - Length: 0:02:18
[18:55:05] <Valen> turbines are always cool
[18:55:16] <Valen> I'd hate to think the price of the CAM program they use
[18:55:42] <pfred1> Valen you use blender don't you?
[18:55:57] <Valen> rhino and rhinocam
[18:56:06] <pfred1> oh who in here used blender?
[19:07:28] <Jymmm> me!
[19:07:40] <Jymmm> and mixer too
[19:10:05] <Valen> how do you CAM?
[19:10:26] <Jymmm> Valen: I think there's a gcode plugin
[19:12:45] <archivist> pfred1, MattyMatt
[19:12:59] <pfred1> archivist ah I haven't seen them around lately
[19:13:34] <Jymmm> MattyMatt was here a couple of days ago.
[19:13:48] <pfred1> and what about andy?
[19:13:53] <pfred1> he still MIA?
[19:14:17] <Jymmm> On a boat or in INS custody I guess =)
[19:15:01] <Jymmm> Wait, he got his VISA, nm.
[19:15:01] <pfred1> andy would just like to send all of you this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7yfISlGLNU
[19:15:03] <Tecan> (R7yfISlGLNU) "I'm On A Boat (ft. T-Pain) - Album Version" by "thelonelyisland" is "Comedy" - Length: 0:03:09
[19:18:44] <Valen> I think it'd be more like this somehow http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gm4UAt_bKwo
[19:18:48] <Tecan> (Gm4UAt_bKwo) "I'm on a boat - Australian Navy Style" by "Mkidgell" is "Entertainment" - Length: 0:02:39
[19:21:22] <Valen> he really needs to stop pasting stuff
[19:30:39] <Tom_itx> man, somebody shoot MarkusBec
[19:31:11] <Jymmm> I could I guess
[19:32:12] <Jymmm> Just a temp ban to see if that fixes his client...
[19:32:51] <pfred1> you can ignore them
[19:33:17] <Tom_itx> i can complain about them too :)
[19:33:31] <pfred1> heh
[19:33:31] <Valen> heh
[19:33:37] <Tom_itx> i saw that coming
[19:33:38] <pfred1> jynx!
[19:33:54] <pfred1> ban their IP
[19:33:55] <Jymmm> MarkusBe-: did you fix it?
[19:34:05] <Valen> i am wondering how to turn on the "hide boring join/part messages" part of this client
[19:34:06] <Jymmm> pfred1: I wasnt trying to perm ban him
[19:34:23] <pfred1> you can unban too you know
[19:35:02] <Jymmm> Sure, after 5m or a pm whichever comes first
[19:35:15] <Tom_itx> where's this gcode plugin for blender?
[19:35:29] <pfred1> I've heard of the plugin myself
[19:35:51] <Tom_itx> does it do 5axis rotary?
[19:36:02] <PCW> Andy is on his way back to GB today (by plane)
[19:36:21] <Jymmm> PCW: They kicked him out of the country?
[19:36:38] <pfred1> he wanted to go back to where they speak English
[19:36:53] <PCW> Well they let him stay 2 weeks at least
[19:37:05] <Jymmm> PCW: I thought he visa was for 6months
[19:37:26] <PCW> I expect he needs to get back to work
[19:37:41] <Jymmm> PCW: You showed him The Castro District didn't you!
[19:39:25] <PCW> No, but I do think he liked the chance to really dry out
[19:40:00] <Jymmm> PCW: haha, I bet. Not much chance to do that in SF though.
[19:40:19] <Jymmm> Some place warm like Napa/Sonoma
[19:41:31] <PCW> He showed us around the winning yacht today that was fun
[19:41:47] <Jymmm> ah, cool.
[19:42:05] <Jymmm> PCW: was he staying aboard during his time here?
[19:42:05] <Tom_itx> how are they gettin em back home?
[19:42:21] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: plane
[19:42:39] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: you provide your own transportation
[19:42:39] <Tom_itx> the boats
[19:42:47] <archivist> they sail
[19:42:49] <PCW> there are two more legs to the trip (but Andy is flying home)
[19:42:58] <djdelorie> they check them in general luggage :-)
[19:42:59] <Tom_itx> sail without andy then
[19:43:11] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: Next group #4
[19:43:15] <Tom_itx> there are transport ships for that
[19:43:21] <archivist> he was only doing one leg
[19:43:22] <Tom_itx> ok so they're not done
[19:43:25] <Tom_itx> ahh ok
[19:43:34] <PCW> Leaving Oakland tomorrow bound for New York and the GB
[19:43:41] <PCW> and then GB
[19:44:23] <Tom_itx> tell him to wave when he flies over swampeast Mo and Ks
[19:45:26] <PCW> (I mean the yachts are)
[19:45:27] <pfred1> are they going to sail around the horn?
[19:45:49] <PCW> Through the canal
[19:45:58] <pfred1> hmm probably smart :)
[19:48:20] <ssi> so I got these drives
[19:48:27] <ssi> now I gotta figure out what to drive with them :D
[19:50:15] <ssi> wondering if these'd be useful
[19:50:16] <ssi> http://www.ebay.com/itm/280846901483?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649#ht_1950wt_1413
[19:51:56] <pfred1> fleabay
[19:52:12] <pfred1> place is like the land of scammers anymore
[19:52:22] <ssi> I haven't had any problems with ebay tbh
[19:52:29] <ssi> and I've bought and sold hundreds of things
[19:52:54] <pfred1> you won your 99 cent auction now $20 shipping and handling please!
[19:53:15] <ssi> just gotta be smart enough to realize that :)
[19:53:32] <pfred1> and you have to use paypal now
[19:53:45] <Tom_itx> of course
[19:53:49] <PCW> Those look pretty nice but I dont see any specs
[19:53:52] <Tom_itx> they get a percent twice that way
[19:53:52] <ssi> practically speaking, yes
[19:54:02] <ssi> and as a buyer, there's almost no downside to paypal
[19:54:03] <archivist> I often collect and pay cash
[19:54:07] <ssi> as a seller, not so much
[19:54:36] <pfred1> actually in the USA I'm not even sure of ebay is operating within the law demanding paypal use
[19:54:38] <ssi> PCW: yeah that's what I'm wondering about... says 60VDC, but no current or power
[19:54:46] <Tom_itx> 23in/lb
[19:54:48] <ReadError> paypal has protection
[19:54:49] <ssi> just "tests at about 23lbin
[19:54:52] <ReadError> if you get robbed
[19:54:52] <pfred1> this note is legal tender for all debts public and private
[19:54:55] <ReadError> you get your money back
[19:55:40] <pfred1> I'm pretty sure it still says that on our currency doesn't it?
[19:56:19] <ssi> ebay doesn't demand paypal use
[19:58:20] <djdelorie> pfred1: IIRC the misconception is that the debt exists before you buy the item. eBay can choose not to create debt by requiring payment, and choosing the payment method.
[19:58:33] <djdelorie> Plus, IIRC, the "all debts" probably also means "debts to the govmint"
[19:58:52] <PCW> Kind of looks like 100-200W
[19:59:26] <ssi> PCW: not too out of line for what I'm looking for, probably
[19:59:36] <pfred1> djdelorie a good way to skirt the spirit
[19:59:38] <ssi> PCW: can you get a feel for whether it's brushed or brushless from the look of it?
[19:59:50] <PCW> looks like a deal if you can use it (its brushed)
[20:00:02] <ssi> PCW: I have three brush drives
[20:00:17] <ssi> 1200W continuous drives... somewhat overkill :)
[20:00:45] <PCW> There must be a lot of those surplus I found more listings when I tried to LU the PN
[20:00:54] <PCW> bbl ttgh
[20:01:59] <ReadError> pfred1
[20:02:04] <ReadError> ebay allows other payment
[20:02:15] <ReadError> some sellers will let you mail a check or MO
[20:03:06] <Tom_itx> yeah but who want's to wait extra time
[20:03:18] <pfred1> I don't mind waiting
[20:03:57] <Valen> be nice if mesa had some cheap products to drive 1200w motors ;->
[20:04:28] <pfred1> the only thing cheap 1200 Watts is a hairdrier
[20:04:48] <ssi> I wish I had some 1200W motors to drive with my cheap 1200W drives! :D
[20:04:59] <Valen> scooter motors
[20:05:17] <pfred1> people like treadmill motors
[20:05:44] <Tom_itx> what about wheelchair motors
[20:06:02] <pfred1> for a while you couldn't drive around without seeing a treadmill on the curb
[20:06:30] <Tom_itx> are they all in your back yard now?
[20:06:40] <pfred1> no I didn't get in on the craze
[20:06:48] <pfred1> but plenty of others did
[20:07:02] <Valen> so people there rip apart anything with copper in it for scrap?
[20:07:13] <Valen> IE smashing old TV's to pull out the coils
[20:07:24] <pfred1> people used them as variable speed motors for lathes
[20:07:25] <Valen> leaving the smashed glass everywhere
[20:07:55] <pfred1> you can take a yoke off a tube without breaking it
[20:08:06] <Valen> that takes more than 3 seconds
[20:08:08] <pfred1> well I can maybe you can't
[20:08:51] <Valen> pfred1: if i found somebody doing that i'd take to them with a bat
[20:08:58] <Valen> leaving broken glass on the ground is not ok
[20:09:10] <pfred1> why not it came out of the ground
[20:09:27] <Valen> because i might want to walk in my front yard with bare feet
[20:09:34] <Valen> or walk my dogs along the street
[20:09:44] <pfred1> then don't leave TVs in yoru front yard
[20:09:53] <Valen> i dont
[20:10:14] <Valen> but other people put them out for council collection then the metal buzzards smash them before council gets there
[20:10:31] <pfred1> recycling at its finest
[20:10:52] <Jymmm> Valen: I found a 1300fps pellet rifle =)
[20:11:19] <Valen> The issue i take is they break things that are working that others could well use and leave shit everywhere
[20:11:25] <Valen> thats not recycling
[20:11:57] <Valen> the same people go around stealing the cast iron drain grates
[20:11:58] <Tom_itx> last summer they would steal the copper wiring from public park lighting just to sell the copper
[20:12:05] <pfred1> such is the nature of resource competition I suppose
[20:12:30] <Valen> pfred1: such is the nature of idiots
[20:12:32] <Tom_itx> lots of AC units came up missing as well
[20:13:04] <djdelorie> don't forget the occasional corpse at the power transmission stations...
[20:13:24] <Valen> i'd make laws that all scrap from the public must show a chain of ownership and be photographed with the scrapper
[20:13:46] <pfred1> yeah that'd work
[20:13:50] <Valen> then when 100 year old cast iron drains come through the police can throw the bastards in jail for the next 100 years
[20:13:50] <pfred1> NOT!
[20:13:58] <Valen> oh it'd work just fine
[20:14:16] <pfred1> how is it going to work when I want to scrap my 100 year old cast iron drains?
[20:14:42] <Valen> thats your problem isn't it
[20:14:53] <Jymmm> pfred1: You show your receipt for em!
[20:14:56] <pfred1> no nanny regulation is my problem
[20:14:59] <Valen> if it stops them from making huge holes in the street i'm fine with it
[20:15:13] <Valen> so whats your solution then hrm?
[20:15:30] <djdelorie> rewire it all so it's always live? ;-)
[20:15:36] <Tom_itx> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIkNY5xjy5k
[20:16:44] <Valen> djdelorie: that doesn't stop them in india
[20:16:58] <Jymmm> djdelorie: doens't help. they went after the electric train at 4KV once
[20:17:18] <pfred1> yeah but you usually only go after things like that once
[20:17:35] <Jymmm> pfred1: New stupid daily.
[20:17:46] <Jymmm> for your enjoyment
[20:17:56] <Jymmm> and agrivation
[20:17:59] <Valen> treat scrap the same as any other second hand good, the yard should be required at least to inventory the scrap and associate it with who deivered it to them
[20:18:23] <Valen> Tom_itx: thats a good one ;->
[20:18:33] <pfred1> well I suppose the scrap yard is responsible for receiving stolen goods
[20:18:34] <Jymmm> they require ID usually
[20:19:03] <pfred1> I mena if you come in with a truck loaded with manhole covers marked NYC they should know something is up
[20:19:13] <Valen> they don't though
[20:19:26] <pfred1> then the scrap yard is culpable
[20:19:28] <Jymmm> they ignore it, it's money in their pocket.
[20:20:09] <Tom_itx> Valen i dare say they wouldn't be stealing that wire
[20:20:10] <pfred1> I guy I know almost lost his aluminum boat it got stolen and brought to a scrap yard but he called around and found it
[20:20:21] <Valen> they go round the cleanups, fill the trailer with bike frames and such like, realise that their whole day of driving around has cost them $50 in fuel and rip up a heavy chunk of cast iron and throw that in the middle of the pile
[20:27:13] <Valen> I'll take something from a cleanup, but i take it because i want to use the whole device
[20:27:27] <Valen> i've gotten some nice speakers and more than a few room heaters that way
[20:27:36] <pfred1> and that makes you better than someone that uses just a part of it?
[20:27:43] <Valen> yes
[20:27:54] <Valen> reduce, reuse, recycle
[20:27:58] <Tom_itx> repurpose instead of vandalize and sell the scrap
[20:27:59] <Valen> in that order
[20:28:21] <Valen> they break working things and leave dangerous crap behind
[20:29:01] <Tom_itx> i can count on setting something out and having it gone by morning
[20:29:35] <Valen> see i'm fine with that
[20:30:07] <Tom_itx> i got a pc that way once but i asked before i loaded it up
[20:30:09] <Valen> see something you can use on the side of the road, pick it up and use it, don't leave a mess
[20:30:16] <Valen> extra nice
[20:30:25] <pfred1> I've gotten many PCs for free
[20:30:35] <pfred1> I didn't keep too many of them together though
[20:30:50] <Tom_itx> well me either but i did use the parts
[20:30:58] <Tom_itx> and didn't leave them scattered all over the place
[20:31:36] <pfred1> if I grab something I grab it all and dispose of what I don't want properly
[20:31:57] <Tom_itx> wow, splicing a power line: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OY72athcwvA&feature=related
[20:32:00] <pfred1> but I'm not going to say anything against people who don't do that
[20:32:18] <Valen> so your fine with broken glass on your footpaths?
[20:32:26] <Valen> thats fine with you
[20:32:47] <pfred1> people chuck bottles ont othe front of my property all the time
[20:32:55] <Valen> and you like that
[20:32:55] <pfred1> I just mow them
[20:33:23] <pfred1> yeah I don't walk out there
[20:33:41] <Tom_itx> you may quit mowing them once you get a piece in your leg
[20:34:19] <pfred1> ah I said I don't walk out there I use a riding mower
[20:34:40] <pfred1> I have over 2 acres I have to mow so
[20:35:00] <Valen> I'd set up a camera and report them to the police
[20:35:10] * pfred1 pushed a mower once and that was enough for him!
[20:35:28] <pfred1> I was jacked up for like a week after that
[20:35:40] <Valen> i cant handle people destroying either public or private spaces
[20:35:50] <Valen> they can fuck their own space up but not mine
[20:36:20] <pfred1> well I don't know between teh drainage ditch and the road I'm not too territorial about that piece of ground
[20:36:38] <pfred1> I really can't see it from my house
[20:36:59] <Valen> probably somewhat different in a rural area
[20:37:22] <Valen> but if you had a horse and rode it along there you would probably not be quite so ambivilent
[20:37:24] <pfred1> yeah my next door neighbor he's like on my land a good 40 feet way in the back
[20:37:41] <pfred1> I only know because of satellite imagry I never made an issue out of it with him
[20:38:13] <pfred1> he had a horse and i think he used to ride in my backyard
[20:38:48] <pfred1> ut one day the horse was gone I don't know what happened there
[20:39:01] <pfred1> I do know there was a nasty hole in the tall grass in my backyard
[20:39:34] <pfred1> my neighbor might know about it too I don't know
[20:41:06] <ReadError> woh
[20:41:07] <pfred1> Valen know what does piss me off?
[20:41:13] <ReadError> he buried his horse in your backyard?
[20:41:25] <pfred1> ReadError I don't think he did
[20:41:37] <pfred1> he might have I don't go into the woods back there
[20:41:38] <Valen> horse broke its leg in the hole is the implication
[20:42:07] <pfred1> the kids around here have nothing better to do than go mailbox batting
[20:42:29] <pfred1> man my mailbox looks like it has been through a war
[20:42:36] <Valen> I'd put an 8mm steel letterbox in, if i didn't think it'd get stolen and sold as scrap
[20:42:38] <djdelorie> mill one out of cast iron
[20:42:43] <pfred1> and everytime they beat it up I have to fix it
[20:42:57] <Valen> djdelorie: nah that absorbs impact, you want it to ring like a bastard ;->
[20:42:59] <pfred1> djdelorie wouldn't be postmaster approved
[20:43:07] <djdelorie> buy a big mailbox and a little one, nest them, fill the gap with concrete
[20:43:17] <Tom_itx> put some impact explosives on the outside of it
[20:43:24] <eric_unterhausen> they sell mailboxes that are so thick that it will survive almost anything
[20:43:28] <pfred1> there are regulations about what you can put on the side of the road
[20:43:30] <djdelorie> my uncle was a mail carrier, one of his customers had a mailbox made of plate steel
[20:43:31] <Valen> djdelorie: america has really narky rules
[20:43:52] <djdelorie> Mine is that funny plastic that's nearly indestructable
[20:43:57] <pfred1> like we can't use more than a 4x4 to hold it up for instance
[20:44:07] <Tom_itx> mount plate steel one to an old semi crankshaft stuck in the ground
[20:44:08] <pfred1> in case someone drives off the road
[20:44:14] <eric_unterhausen> go to lowes or homedepot, they have indestructible ones
[20:44:37] <Tom_itx> meh make your own
[20:44:38] <pfred1> I seen what mailboxes they have and I seen them all broken too
[20:45:18] <pfred1> if the kids don't get your mailboxes the snow plows do
[20:45:30] <eric_unterhausen> I have a hard time believing something made of 1/4" sheet metal can be broken
[20:45:38] <pfred1> a wall of snow going 50 MPH is tough for them to survive
[20:45:55] <eric_unterhausen> we had a mailbox in a brick column
[20:45:56] <pfred1> eric_unterhausen would you believe it is illegal to use it then?
[20:46:05] <djdelorie> min'e on a pivot arm so it can be pushed out of the way by the plows
[20:46:07] <eric_unterhausen> local law?
[20:46:14] <pfred1> county rules
[20:46:37] <eric_unterhausen> what is this, some kind of mailbox baseball criminal conspiracy?
[20:46:59] <djdelorie> It's for the CHILDREN!!!
[20:47:11] <pfred1> I see people with the brick mailboxes but they're not in compliance and the state could come by and bulldoze them
[20:47:23] <pfred1> and be within their rights
[20:47:35] <Valen> and also voted out of office
[20:47:37] <eric_unterhausen> actually, the brick mailboxes fall right down when they get hit
[20:47:50] <pfred1> doesn't matter code is a 4x4
[20:47:56] <eric_unterhausen> I believe it
[20:48:00] <pfred1> they don't even want you putting bricks in the ground to hold it up either
[20:48:04] <eric_unterhausen> not that I want to run into a 4x4
[20:48:17] <Valen> 4x4 wouldn't bother your car much
[20:48:23] <Valen> might bother you on a bike
[20:48:25] <pfred1> not in our sandy soil
[20:48:27] <pfred1> pop right out
[20:48:33] <Valen> but anything would bother you on a bike
[20:48:33] <Tom_itx> sorta surprised they don't require you to drill a hole at the base of it
[20:48:44] <Tom_itx> if they're getting that picky
[20:48:56] <eric_unterhausen> or set it on the ground :)
[20:49:02] <Valen> why not mandate that they be on flexy poles
[20:49:12] <Valen> think of the children
[20:49:15] <eric_unterhausen> might spring back an hit someoen in the face
[20:49:16] <djdelorie> must be made of lego bricks, not glued, and spandex.
[20:49:18] <Tom_itx> our wood pole road signs here have holes drilled
[20:49:44] <pfred1> hey before i moved my mailbox I went through the trouble of looking up the regulations
[20:49:45] <eric_unterhausen> I haven't seen a wood pole road sign in some time
[20:50:08] <eric_unterhausen> how do they keep you from using a stronger mailbox, weight limit?
[20:50:28] <pfred1> well you can't use any mailbox not approved by the postmaster general
[20:50:33] <pfred1> that is a federal law
[20:50:42] <eric_unterhausen> there are some really heavy duty ones that are postmaster approved
[20:51:06] <Valen> does each individual one need to be approved or can you just meet the requirements?
[20:51:23] <pfred1> I think a model gets approved then they are mass produced
[20:52:55] <Spida> but they have to be mass-produced?
[20:53:23] <pfred1> I guess if the postmaster general is your golfing buddy you could have him come over and approve of your mailbox
[20:53:34] <Valen> actually it looks as though only mass produced ones need approval
[20:54:11] <Valen> http://www.everything-mailboxes.com/mailbox-standards.html
[20:54:52] <pfred1> now I need new house numbers
[20:55:05] <pfred1> I'm kind of skating on those rules
[20:55:30] <pfred1> well, I never did have house numbers but yo ucan't see my house from the street anyways
[20:55:45] <pfred1> but I need numbers on my mailbox
[20:56:01] <pfred1> I have them but the ones i got are beat now
[20:56:20] <pfred1> we got regulations about them too
[20:56:28] <Valen> so looks like you probably can make your plate steel mailbox
[20:56:33] <eric_unterhausen> if it's not postmaster approved, they can refuse to deliver mail
[20:56:47] <Valen> it needs to be aproved by your local postmaster
[20:56:53] <Valen> not *the*
[20:57:18] <pfred1> yeah I'm really not interested in making trouble
[20:57:33] <Valen> i think your perhaps over concerned
[20:57:46] <Valen> plate steel mailbox that looks identical to all the others
[20:57:54] <Valen> paint it up normal
[20:57:58] <eric_unterhausen> I just found a mailbox that costs $700
[20:58:03] <Valen> add a trembler switch and a video camera
[20:58:21] <eric_unterhausen> they probably are hitting it with a baseball bat from a moving car
[20:58:23] <Valen> email you the videos of punks breaking their bats on it
[20:58:39] <eric_unterhausen> one of the mailbox companies had an ad like that
[20:58:55] <pfred1> eric_unterhausen I do believe tha is how the activity is performed
[20:59:00] <eric_unterhausen> the heavy duty mailboxes don't look any different
[20:59:18] <eric_unterhausen> so it isn't much fun to hit one
[20:59:40] <pfred1> then instead of them denting my mailbox I'd have to replace my custom post
[21:00:03] <Valen> your not going to break a 4x4 post with a bat
[21:00:30] <pfred1> yeah they'd probably run it over with their 4x4
[21:00:42] <Valen> even better lol
[21:00:50] <Valen> itd make a fine mess of their car
[21:01:08] <pfred1> I said 4x4
[21:01:32] <Valen> running over a 4x4 post isn't going to do anything short of a tank any favours
[21:01:58] <pfred1> I donno I could run over it with my truck and not even scratch it
[21:02:35] <pfred1> it took me 3 days to make that post
[21:02:47] <Valen> 3 days to make a 4x4 post?
[21:03:01] <pfred1> well the time consuming part was the support brace
[21:03:14] <pfred1> it is a quarter circle laminated and mortised
[21:03:47] <pfred1> it is very stylish
[21:04:10] * pfred1 didn't like the crap the home centers was selling
[21:05:04] <djdelorie> steel post sunk 7 ft into the ground, 3ft of dirt and 4ft of solid granite :-)
[21:05:17] <pfred1> I made a hardboard template and patern routed the laminations
[21:05:55] <pfred1> djdelorie if you ever want to get rich drive a truckload of rocks to Delaware
[21:06:07] <pfred1> well to sussex county
[21:06:16] <pfred1> because we don't have any native rocks!
[21:06:24] <djdelorie> around here they just stick up out of the ground... We're called "the granite state" for a reason
[21:06:32] <pfred1> a small pallet of rocks goes for like $700 here
[21:06:41] <pfred1> I'm not kidding
[21:06:54] <pfred1> it blew my mind when I moved here
[21:07:17] <pfred1> I wasl ike you got to be kidding me this little pile of rocks costs what?
[21:07:18] <djdelorie> took 12 cases of dynamite to make the hole for my house's foundation.
[21:07:46] <pfred1> I worked on a job back where I came from and yo ucould dig al lday and not fill a bucket with dirt
[21:08:09] <Valen> i've got clay
[21:08:13] <Valen> lots and lots of clay
[21:08:15] <pfred1> you could also walk across that jobsite and not touch the ground there was so much yellow explosive wire all over the place
[21:08:15] <djdelorie> biggest problem on our build was finding a spot that had enough dirt to put in the septic system
[21:08:31] <Valen> mixed with rocks for flavour
[21:08:39] <pfred1> we have sand here
[21:09:31] <pfred1> no rocks
[21:09:40] <djdelorie> sand is like tiny rocks...
[21:09:47] <pfred1> no it really isn't
[21:09:56] <djdelorie> really really tiny rocks...
[21:09:56] <Valen> lol
[21:10:02] <Valen> some sand is
[21:10:05] <Valen> some is polished
[21:10:13] <pfred1> my shed sank so I had to jack it up and put some bluestone under the blocks
[21:11:02] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: did you say you do automation?
[21:11:05] <pfred1> since I did that it has been on an even keel
[21:12:22] <pfred1> djdelorie when I put in my solar panels I sank a post and i dug down about 5 feet and I found one huge grain of sand I'd call a small rock
[21:12:43] <pfred1> I didn't feel like cutting the 8 foot 4x4
[21:12:58] <Jymmm> pfred1: burn it
[21:13:08] <pfred1> it is pressure treated
[21:13:12] <eric_unterhausen> 2' down, we have a giant sheet of slate
[21:13:18] <djdelorie> in my case, they were drilling for explosives elsewhere on the driveway, so I had them drill a hole for the mailbox too. Easy-peasy.
[21:13:42] <Jymmm> pfred1: respirartor
[21:13:54] <Valen> djdelorie: lol
[21:14:03] <Valen> still, good foundation at least
[21:14:08] <Valen> not so great for trees
[21:14:14] <pfred1> http://i.imgur.com/l6gMt.jpg
[21:14:21] <pfred1> that is an 8 foot 4x4
[21:14:41] <Jymmm> looks like a pond to me
[21:14:53] <pfred1> Jymmm in back of the pond wise guy
[21:15:05] <pfred1> and my rock wealth!
[21:15:10] <Jymmm> statue
[21:15:27] <pfred1> the statue is worthless compared to the rock it is sitting on
[21:16:09] <Jymmm> Oh, and boycot Scotts/Miracle Grow products. They are intentionally coating bird seed with insecticides.
[21:16:30] <pfred1> I like miracle grow garden soil
[21:16:34] <pfred1> stuff works
[21:16:38] <djdelorie> sweet! I'll feed it to the crows that poop on my deck.
[21:17:03] <pfred1> yeah I don't know why they call it bird seed
[21:17:11] <pfred1> I ain't seen the animal yet that won't eat the stuff
[21:17:19] <Jymmm> http://grist.org/list/scotts-miracle-gro-pleads-guilty-to-selling-poisoned-bird-seed/
[21:17:26] <djdelorie> and if you plant it, birds don't grow from it...
[21:17:34] <pfred1> heck my neighbor's dog comes over sometimes and eats it!
[21:17:41] <eric_unterhausen> has anyone ever had to troubleshoot a linux system that crashes randomly?
[21:17:47] <eric_unterhausen> memtest passes
[21:17:50] <eric_unterhausen> for hours
[21:17:55] <Jymmm> eric_unterhausen: the logs never lie
[21:17:56] <djdelorie> yeah, but dogs eat anything. Poop. Rocks. Sticks.
[21:17:59] <pfred1> eric_unterhausen check the motherboard for bad caps
[21:18:13] <djdelorie> eric: dust in the cpu heatsink?
[21:18:23] <eric_unterhausen> I just fixed another motherboard with new caps, but didn't think about this one
[21:18:26] <pfred1> or a shot CPU fan
[21:18:27] <Jymmm> grilled cheese in the VCR
[21:18:39] <eric_unterhausen> I think the cpu cooler is ok
[21:18:45] <eric_unterhausen> had thought thermal
[21:18:58] <Jymmm> eric_unterhausen: did you check the logs?
[21:19:05] <pfred1> any brown crust on the top of caps
[21:19:06] <eric_unterhausen> which log
[21:19:10] <pfred1> evne just a little
[21:19:25] <pfred1> sometimes they don't come out but just leak
[21:19:26] <eric_unterhausen> the bad caps I replaced in the other system were just bulged
[21:19:29] <pfred1> dome out even
[21:19:38] <pfred1> yeah they don't always bulge
[21:19:50] <pfred1> look in the expansion slots for a little brown
[21:19:58] <eric_unterhausen> I was really happy that fixed it because it would have been a very expensive computer to replace
[21:20:07] <eric_unterhausen> why in the expansion slots?
[21:20:14] <pfred1> that is where it comes out
[21:20:22] <pfred1> in the top of the cap are lines
[21:20:31] <eric_unterhausen> oh, that expansion slot
[21:20:34] <pfred1> those expansion slots
[21:20:41] <eric_unterhausen> I thought you meant pci
[21:20:45] <pfred1> no
[21:20:57] <eric_unterhausen> which logs are most likely to show issues?
[21:20:59] <pfred1> I've seen caps go and not bulge just sort of leak
[21:21:07] <pfred1> syslog
[21:21:17] <eric_unterhausen> var/syslog?
[21:21:17] <pfred1> /var/log/syslog
[21:21:34] <pfred1> you need to be root to look at it
[21:22:15] <pfred1> messages is sort of like syslog but the really critical stuff goes to syslog
[21:23:02] <eric_unterhausen> more /var/log/syslog worked with no sudo, are they hiding things from me
[21:23:22] <pfred1> wow maybe ubuntu is different than debian
[21:24:01] <Tom_itx> ubuntu is built off debian isn't it?
[21:24:21] <pfred1> yeah but they do their own thing with their system they just use the repo
[21:24:28] <tronwizard> it is, ubuntu kinds forces you to use sudo, but you can create a root password for login as such
[21:24:36] <pfred1> ubuntu is debian testing for the most part
[21:25:10] <pfred1> least ubuntu sets sudo up for you
[21:25:13] <pfred1> debian doesn't
[21:25:29] <pfred1> you have to visudo in debian
[21:26:05] <pfred1> least i did the last time I set it up
[21:27:04] <pfred1> can you su root in ubuntu?
[21:27:07] <eric_unterhausen> I need to upgrade a fedora 10 system at work
[21:27:21] <eric_unterhausen> they installed the stupid software raid, it's a nightmare
[21:27:45] <pfred1> I never tried it but it seems like suse had nice lvm setup to me
[21:28:32] <tronwizard> sudo passwd will let you create a root password, then you can use that to login as root
[21:29:11] * pfred1 uses sudo -s a lot
[21:29:33] <eric_unterhausen> I've gotten used to just using sudo
[21:29:51] <pfred1> well sudo -s just gives you a root shell
[21:29:53] <Tecan> goodmorning vietnam
[21:30:12] <pfred1> you get the # until you exit
[21:31:05] <Tecan> bring your own weed mill party tonight
[21:32:47] <pfred1> this box has my sudo all pimped out the way I like it
[21:33:07] <pfred1> no password and I have my ls colors :)
[21:33:31] <pfred1> though i don't get a fortune when I root bash: fortune: command not found
[21:33:57] <pfred1> because games isn't on root's path
[21:34:34] * ReadError ircs as root, so gangsta
[21:35:09] <pfred1> years ago I used to just use a root account for everything and I'd su to a user account to IRC :)
[21:35:12] <ReadError> remember when servers would kick you off if you connected and the ident was root ;)
[21:35:15] <pfred1> it simplified a lot of permissions
[21:35:52] <ReadError> pfred1, you can just change the UID/GID to 0:0 in /etc/passwd
[21:35:58] <ReadError> solves all that ;)
[21:36:10] <djdelorie> or hack identd so it lies
[21:36:15] <ReadError> ya
[21:36:19] <ReadError> oidentd
[21:36:23] <pfred1> well I like the protection of limited permissions
[21:36:26] <ReadError> simple simple
[21:36:51] <pfred1> keeps me from deleting my / filesystem sometimes
[21:36:54] <eric_unterhausen> there are tons of errors on my boot, particularly acpi errors
[21:37:06] <ReadError> do you have it enabled in the bios?
[21:37:20] <eric_unterhausen> maybe
[21:37:38] <pfred1> eric_unterhausen if you go looking for errors there is often a fair chance you'll find them
[21:38:09] <pfred1> whether they're critical or not is another matter
[21:38:46] <ReadError> do dmesg|grep acpi
[21:38:49] <ReadError> see what they are
[21:39:21] <eric_unterhausen> mostly no handler for address
[21:39:32] <ReadError> make sure its enabled in bios
[21:40:00] <eric_unterhausen> I was going to update my bios, but I forgot my windows password
[21:40:10] <eric_unterhausen> cracking utilities didn't work
[21:40:24] <ReadError> lol
[21:40:28] <ReadError> never flash from windows!
[21:40:33] <pfred1> you need a windows password to update your bios?
[21:40:46] <ReadError> you need a usb drive + bootable
[21:40:53] <eric_unterhausen> either that or get dos somewhere
[21:40:54] <pfred1> I thought people used freedos for that?
[21:41:09] <eric_unterhausen> looks like chrome caused a general protection error
[21:41:40] <pfred1> windows security is an oxymoron
[21:41:51] <ReadError> heh
[21:42:10] <ReadError> pfred1, i run into alot of comprimised linux servers though
[21:42:12] <eric_unterhausen> well, I guess bill gates got tired of the web sites that said you can change your windows password with linux and fixed that
[21:42:20] <ReadError> there was a huge series of plesk exploits that went around a month or so ago
[21:42:26] <ReadError> 2 mo maybe now..
[21:43:03] <pfred1> ReadError I remember when I was trying to learn a little about php I put phpinfo into google it returned me the pages on like a billion servers
[21:43:12] <ReadError> lol yea
[21:43:15] <ReadError> phpinfo.php
[21:43:18] <ReadError> most common name ;p
[21:43:21] <pfred1> that is fixed now
[21:43:34] <pfred1> but I was flabberghasted the day I found it
[21:43:39] <pfred1> I was like wholly!
[21:44:01] <pfred1> I made sure not to leave my file on my machine
[21:44:11] <ReadError> i have no worries about the linux part, its the dang modeling that has me worried ;)
[21:44:18] <ReadError> cant seem to find any good crash course vids
[21:44:49] <pfred1> I was watching a video about blender but the guy was using an older version
[21:45:03] <Valen> eric_unterhausen: software raid (mdadm) is good
[21:45:31] <eric_unterhausen> I found that it's very fragile
[21:45:35] <pfred1> well I'm out i have some new jersey pizza in the house
[21:45:37] <Valen> fragile how?
[21:45:40] <pfred1> best pizza in the world!
[21:45:48] <Tom_itx> prove it
[21:45:56] <ReadError> i got a pizza oven for my grill
[21:46:00] <ReadError> its pretty awesome :)
[21:46:02] <eric_unterhausen> I tried to make a dual boot and ended up with a trashed file system
[21:46:21] <pfred1> yeah i make OK homemade pizza
[21:46:38] <Tom_itx> the best i've had here was knollas
[21:46:44] <pfred1> but pizza from northern NJ is the stuff
[21:46:50] <eric_unterhausen> sry, filesystem ok, but I couldn't reverse my changes and make it boot
[21:46:54] <pfred1> it is the minerals in the water
[21:47:02] <Tom_itx> or something
[21:47:14] <ReadError> eric_unterhausen, you can use a bootable distro
[21:47:18] <ReadError> and re-run grub
[21:47:22] <eric_unterhausen> I was riding my bike through northern NJ, truck drives past spraying some nasty liquid
[21:47:24] <ReadError> if it wouldnt boot...
[21:47:30] <pfred1> you have to chroot first don't you?
[21:47:40] <eric_unterhausen> caught up to it and it was in a box labled "municipal waste"
[21:48:06] <Valen> thats not raids problem
[21:48:13] <Valen> thats windows messing with stuff at best
[21:48:21] <eric_unterhausen> I don't know what else to blame it on
[21:48:21] <pfred1> yeah raid boots off one MBR doesn't it?
[21:48:37] <eric_unterhausen> yes, it's not symmetric
[21:48:44] <Valen> installing windows will almost always make a linux system unbootable
[21:48:47] <eric_unterhausen> loads a driver or something
[21:48:57] <ReadError> Valen, until you re-run grub
[21:49:00] <eric_unterhausen> windows was there, I just tried to mess with grub
[21:49:03] <ReadError> that often fixes it
[21:49:07] <Valen> ReadError: if your lucky ;->
[21:49:11] <ReadError> heh
[21:49:14] <pfred1> yeah so you run a live distro mount the drive chroot your /boot then update-grub
[21:49:18] <Valen> you can install grub into the mbr of both drives then you can boot from either
[21:49:18] <ReadError> i always use multiple disk
[21:49:23] <ReadError> id ont like partitioning drives
[21:49:30] <eric_unterhausen> it was multiple drives
[21:49:45] <Valen> pfred1: you need to mount /proc and /sys etc as well
[21:49:47] <eric_unterhausen> I really don't understand what happened, but I'm not doing that anymore
[21:49:53] <pfred1> or is it grub-update?
[21:50:01] <Valen> eric_unterhausen: the simple way is to install windows
[21:50:05] <Valen> then install linux
[21:50:15] <ReadError> or do it the ghetto fab way
[21:50:20] <eric_unterhausen> that was the situation, but the linux didn't see the windows
[21:50:22] <ReadError> f12, select the disk you want to boot ;)
[21:50:40] <Valen> eric_unterhausen: are you using some kind of fakeraid in bios in windows?
[21:50:41] <ReadError> you need to create the grub entry for it
[21:50:44] <eric_unterhausen> watb that used the computer didnt' like to f12
[21:51:05] <ReadError> then hit delete, change it in the bios
[21:51:08] <ReadError> ;p
[21:51:09] <eric_unterhausen> no, it was fedora pulling some nonsense
[21:51:19] <eric_unterhausen> he usually used linux
[21:51:39] <eric_unterhausen> but was interviewing with people that used windows to do online interviews
[21:51:46] <Valen> I have many many systems using mdadm for raid, its been very reliable to me
[21:51:57] <djdelorie> mine all use mdadm
[21:52:10] <eric_unterhausen> I fail to see the advantage
[21:52:37] <eric_unterhausen> my boss says, "see, it's 10 percent faster"
[21:52:58] <djdelorie> you fail to see the advantage to what?
[21:53:02] <eric_unterhausen> raid
[21:53:21] <eric_unterhausen> unless you are adding redundancy, but I never do that
[21:53:46] <djdelorie> Redundancy. I've lost plenty of drives to "full drive failure"
[21:54:14] <ReadError> also depends on the controller
[21:54:14] <eric_unterhausen> how does raid help that?
[21:54:20] <ReadError> 3ware has a nice setup IMO
[21:54:26] <ReadError> cards are pricey
[21:54:32] <ReadError> but get a BBU, and suweeeeeeeeet
[21:54:33] <djdelorie> but in my case, it's more like 2x faster on my desktop and 5x faster on my server. Not 10%
[21:55:02] <Tom_itx> raid ssd
[21:55:13] <ReadError> i run intel smart response on my windows machine
[21:55:15] <djdelorie> my friend has a raid server that can push over a gigabyte per second to the array
[21:55:17] <ReadError> its pretty gusta ;)
[21:55:42] <ReadError> uses the SSD as a caching drive
[21:56:34] <eric_unterhausen> if you have the about window open in chrome, you can't use chrome
[21:58:30] <eric_unterhausen> darn, latest stable version installed
[22:03:10] <eric_unterhausen> well, this might be progress, aptdaemon seems to be causing chrome to crash
[22:07:45] <eric_unterhausen> suggested fix is to update bios
[22:52:57] <Connor1> Hey Guys, Question on Controllers and Enables. With EMC, you only have 1 Enable, so, Do you tie that to ALL the enables on the drivers ?
[22:54:46] <Tecan> i think trying to laser copper was stupid
[23:01:18] <eric_unterhausen> Conner1 what would multiple enables mean?
[23:01:41] <eric_unterhausen> you split it and send it to all drives
[23:12:02] <r00t4rd3d> would anyone know if these limit switchs would work okay for cnc ?
[23:12:03] <r00t4rd3d> http://www.ebay.com/itm/5pcs-Laser-Machine-Micro-Limit-Sensor-Auto-Switch-KW11-/120731605185?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c1c2a18c1
[23:16:05] <Tecan> just make your own :)
[23:17:54] <r00t4rd3d> I will just buy some
[23:18:11] <r00t4rd3d> i have to many other things to make
[23:19:39] <r00t4rd3d> my power supply is 15a but those switches are labeled 5a/125v so I am not sure if they would work
[23:22:03] <djdelorie> limit switches only carry a few milliamps
[23:23:04] <djdelorie> my machine uses http://search.digikey.com/us/en/products/MS0850505F045S1A/EG4552-ND/1628289
[23:23:12] <djdelorie> very similar to the ones you link to
[23:25:19] <r00t4rd3d> thanks, I will get those then from digi.
[23:26:00] <ReadError> so amped
[23:26:20] <ReadError> but given how long it has took joe9 to setup im kinda scared ;(
[23:28:39] <djdelorie> ReadError: learn from his lessons: get jogging working *first*, then worry about homing and limits
[23:29:32] <djdelorie> once you get yours setup, the three of us should write a "dummy's guide to limits, homing, and touching off" ;-)
[23:30:27] <ReadError> ;o
[23:33:51] <eric_unterhausen> put a new bios on the machine, hopefully that helps
[23:34:21] <eric_unterhausen> I want to use it for linuxcnc, but if it's crashing due to hw, no go
[23:34:45] <eric_unterhausen> latency is pretty good
[23:35:33] <Tecan> http://www.instructables.com/id/how-to-make-a-homemade-ONOFF-switch/step7/test-it/
[23:35:38] <ReadError> djdelorie: where you at on yours?
[23:35:58] <Valen> we ran for years without homing and limits
[23:36:01] <djdelorie> cnc machine? It's making things: http://www.delorie.com/photos/cnc/bldc-bracket-1.html
[23:36:15] <Valen> actually we still dont have limits
[23:36:27] <eric_unterhausen> no limits
[23:36:35] <Valen> exactly
[23:36:37] <Valen> just like me
[23:36:41] <eric_unterhausen> I just ordered the hw kit for one of these: https://www.inventables.com/technologies/cnc-mill-kits-shapeoko
[23:36:44] * freespace also runs without limit switches
[23:37:04] <Tecan> limit switches are for fags lol
[23:37:15] <djdelorie> I could run mine that way. THe controllers stop moving the motors when they get to the end, but keep tracking "desired" position, they return to spec when the software wants them back over the work area :-)
[23:37:16] * Tecan takes all his switches off j/k
[23:38:12] <eric_unterhausen> I think I probably need limits on my mill
[23:38:44] <djdelorie> we need a mobius mill - if you go off one side, it just shows up on the other side
[23:39:08] <djdelorie> I mean, besides lathes :-)
[23:39:21] <Valen> djdelorie: called polar coordinate system
[23:40:33] <djdelorie> yeah, but we need it on all three axes :-)
[23:40:52] <freespace> i am just too lazy to put in limit switches
[23:41:31] <Jymmm> djdelorie: its called polar, not bi polar or tri polar
[23:41:33] <djdelorie> I am too paranoid to leave them out ;-)
[23:41:46] <djdelorie> I don't think I'd want a bipolar mill anyway
[23:41:59] <Jymmm> djdelorie: operator is enough?
[23:42:04] <freespace> i guess it depends on how much damage a run-away spindle can cause :)
[23:42:08] <djdelorie> yup. NO. yup. NO
[23:42:17] <Jymmm> :)
[23:43:01] <Jymmm> LAG
[23:43:12] <Valen> spindle doesn't run away
[23:43:18] <Valen> the bed runs into the stops and goes bang
[23:43:32] <Valen> we never hit the stops hard really
[23:43:47] <Valen> made an unplesant noise and blew the fuse in the motor line
[23:43:50] <Jymmm> Valen: HA you havent tried hard enough!
[23:44:01] <Valen> Jymmm: i tried hard not to ;-P
[23:44:08] <Jymmm> wuss
[23:44:17] <djdelorie> Valen: I watched my test rig bend some all-thread until it was bowed out about 4 inches at the center before I could pull the power supply.
[23:44:20] <Jymmm> Valen: self mutilitaing mill!
[23:44:39] <Jymmm> djdelorie: BRB!!!
[23:45:06] <Valen> What I'd like to see is a kinect or something hooked up to EMC, have it scan the work area, compare the G-Code and say IDIOT THE CLEARANCE PASS GOES THROUGH THE DAMN VICE AT 6 METERS A MINUTE
[23:45:24] <Valen> we use inch dia ballscrews in ours
[23:45:42] <ReadError> djdelorie
[23:45:43] <Jymmm> Valen: And now you know why skynet will exist.
[23:45:47] <ReadError> what mill/controllers you got?
[23:45:56] <djdelorie> I made my own
[23:46:02] <ReadError> own mill???
[23:46:12] <djdelorie> own mill, own controllers, own firmware.
[23:46:28] <djdelorie> http://www.delorie.com/photos/cnc/ http://www.delorie.com/electronics/bldc/
[23:46:31] <Jymmm> mined the ore
[23:47:30] <Valen> got it running with emc?
[23:47:51] <djdelorie> yup
[23:48:07] <Valen> CAN > EMC huh
[23:48:19] <djdelorie> nope, they emulate steppers on the "stepdir" connectors
[23:48:25] <Valen> ahh
[23:48:32] <Valen> wuss!
[23:48:37] <Valen> should run them as servos ;->
[23:48:48] <djdelorie> I put can on because it was trivial, and I figured I could chain them together and make a status panel or something
[23:49:00] <r00t4rd3d> "own controllers" is kinda pushing it
[23:49:20] <djdelorie> had the surplus motors and nothing else, kinda had to DIY them ;-)
[23:49:59] <Valen> what cad package did you use?
[23:50:10] <djdelorie> for the boards? gEDA
[23:50:16] <Valen> hardcore ;->
[23:50:29] <Valen> <- kicad
[23:50:40] <djdelorie> nah, gEDA works great once you get past the newbie learning curves
[23:50:54] <Valen> hows the parts libs?
[23:51:20] <djdelorie> if you stick with the jedec parts, pretty good. Most of my parts ending up being DIY anyway, but it's easy enough to add more parts as needed.
[23:51:43] <freespace> i found that the most painful thing about using gEDA
[23:51:46] <djdelorie> jedec = stuff like DIPs, 0603s, TQFP, etc - standard footprints
[23:52:07] <djdelorie> there's a bunch of online and offline symbol/footprint generators now, automates the whole thing
[23:52:20] <djdelorie> unless you have something weird, then you just have to edit it in the gui manually
[23:52:26] <freespace> that would help enormously
[23:52:45] <Valen> I don't know what it is i hate making parts lol
[23:52:51] <Valen> anyway i'm gonna go plaster a wall
[23:53:02] <djdelorie> example: http://www.gedasymbols.org/user/dj_delorie/tools/dilpad.html
[23:53:03] <freespace> been trying out fritzing, and seeing if i can recommedn it to the uni as something to introduce to first year EEs
[23:53:25] <djdelorie> or: http://www.gedasymbols.org/user/dj_delorie/tools/djboxsym.html
[23:53:38] <Valen> djdelorie: whats the RRP on one of your drivers ?;->
[23:53:39] <r00t4rd3d> elementary electronics?
[23:53:44] <r00t4rd3d> :)
[23:53:45] <djdelorie> I did a gEDA lab at the last DevCon, everyone picked it up pretty quickly.
[23:53:46] <djdelorie> RRP ?
[23:53:55] <Valen> reccomended retail price
[23:53:57] <freespace> recommended retail price
[23:54:02] <freespace> damn, too slow
[23:54:04] <freespace> :P
[23:54:13] <djdelorie> no idea, I can only tell you what I paid for parts and pcbs
[23:54:16] <r00t4rd3d> Anyone use a TB6560 controller?
[23:54:29] <Valen> well what did that run to then? ;->
[23:55:15] <djdelorie> about $100 per board, I think
[23:55:26] <Valen> 's not too bad
[23:55:33] <Valen> what "power level" are they lol
[23:55:36] <djdelorie> plus a year of development, and all the firmware, etc...
[23:55:43] <Valen> all the boring stuff
[23:55:47] <djdelorie> In theory, they can drive a 7 HP motor - 450 V at 15 A
[23:55:59] <Valen> ahh, high volts
[23:56:03] <djdelorie> but the pcb spacing is spec'd for 350 so I wouldn't go past that
[23:56:11] <Valen> why does everybody do that, just because its easier *sigh*
[23:56:27] <djdelorie> high volts == low amps, easier wiring
[23:56:37] <Valen> harder to find cheap motors though
[23:56:38] <eric_unterhausen> high power with low volts means a lot of copper
[23:56:55] <djdelorie> I have a 2 amp supply running three motors
[23:57:19] <djdelorie> and I *still* have to do software current limiting
[23:58:05] <djdelorie> (to keep the motors from using more current than the spec says to give them)
[23:58:22] <Valen> do they have a "max" spec?
[23:59:03] <r00t4rd3d> i was told to add the amps of your motors and add 2 so like 3x3Amp motors would need a 11a supply. Is that right?
[23:59:17] <Valen> for steppers
[23:59:36] <Valen> servo style motors can pull way more current than is on the nameplate for short periods