#linuxcnc | Logs for 2012-03-05

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[00:38:27] <Dave911> Connor Have you looked at the specs on the KelingInc.net website ?
[01:12:54] <Dave911> pcw_home I took a break and looked at this again.. the mesa_7i65 is in the current master but not the 2.5_branch. Master compiles the mesa_7i65 component just fine, but when the same component is put into the 2.5 branch apparently they have tightened up the C compiler / comp error checking in 2.5 branch and it fails to compile for multiple reasons.
[01:15:45] <Dave911> Obviously this is not a good thing. The component is missing a function definition but even when I added that to get rid of that error (using 2.5 branch) the compiler threw multiple errors. In the master those "errors" are ignored apparently.
[02:02:07] <DJ9DJ> moin
[02:31:04] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: cheap hdd... http://i39.tinypic.com/14lo7k3.jpg
[02:33:33] <DJ9DJ> in which century was that? ;)
[02:34:00] <Jymmm> 1980's iirc
[02:34:20] <DJ9DJ> hmm, i was born in the 80's ;)
[02:34:56] <DJ9DJ> i remember my first real hard disk drive, i had a capacity of 40 megabytes
[02:35:19] <DJ9DJ> but it was not that expensive :D
[02:35:58] <Jymmm> Well, $3K, maybe 70's, I can't read the text.
[02:37:20] <DJ9DJ> :)
[03:25:00] <pjm> re that old hdd above http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=BzAEAAAAMBAJ has some great old computer hardware adverts, 1200bd modems, whopping 256Kb memory boards, and of course loads of 'small' hdd's for $$$
[07:14:40] <Arduno> how to mark raster image using graster in emc2
[07:17:38] <archivist> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Rastering_With_A_Laser
[07:19:00] <Arduno> i m using only graster bin file
[07:44:30] <pcw_home> ooh big Eartquake
[07:45:23] <DJ9DJ> uh, where?
[07:48:33] <jthornton> http://earthquake.usgs.gov/
[07:48:45] <bedah> 6.1-magnitude earthquake hits Argentina
[07:48:46] <jthornton> http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/recenteqscanv/
[07:48:53] <bedah> 4.9 earthquake rocks Delhi
[07:49:02] <bedah> Magnitude 3.3 earthquake hits Armenia
[07:49:05] <bedah> choose one
[07:49:37] <DJ9DJ> uh
[07:50:42] <archivist> I bet its this one http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/recenteqscanv/FaultMaps/122-38.html
[07:50:54] <archivist> one/two
[07:52:46] <pcw_home> Yeah not so big but epicenter only a few miles away
[07:52:59] <pcw_home> sure woke me up
[08:04:52] <Valen> exciting
[08:05:19] <Valen> australia has even had an earthquake that i rember
[08:05:23] <Valen> yeah
[08:05:30] <Valen> one in the past near 30 years lol
[08:05:33] <Valen> i was about 7
[08:06:03] <Valen> and i was at a beach as a 7 year old i wanted waves at the beach, the whole time we were there nothin at all
[08:06:31] <Valen> then just as we were about to leave one came in, perfectly vertical wall of water about a meter high
[08:06:34] <Valen> AWESOME!
[08:06:42] <Valen> (regular wave not tsunami)
[08:06:59] <Valen> found out that night there was an earthquake 400km away that knocked the front off 2 shops
[10:29:22] <joe9> alex4nder: are you around? have a few quick questions..
[10:29:57] <alex4nder> joe9: I am
[10:30:21] <joe9> i know you bought taig cnc ready and then speced out the stepper motors and the controller.
[10:30:32] <alex4nder> yup
[10:30:39] <joe9> how long did it take you to get the other parts working after you received the taig?
[10:31:07] <alex4nder> like, total work setting up linuxcnc and getting everything rigged up? or wall time?
[10:31:12] <joe9> i think you have a G540, steppers + power supply
[10:31:21] <alex4nder> yah, that's what I have.
[10:31:34] <joe9> total time till you could get a piece out.
[10:32:01] <joe9> from the delivery of taig to getting a piece out, as, I would, if I bought a CNC mill taig.
[10:32:21] <alex4nder> oh, well if you're just cranking, and have all the pieces you need in front of you.. 4 hours?
[10:32:30] <joe9> I am deciding between taig cnc ready vs taig cnc mill. want to see how long it took from the "cnc ready" to "cnc mill"
[10:32:36] <alex4nder> oh
[10:32:39] <joe9> oh, really .that is cool.
[10:32:53] <alex4nder> well I'll say this, doing it from scratch gives you a lot to learn
[10:32:53] <joe9> i was afraid that it might run into a few weeks or months.
[10:33:16] <alex4nder> I killed a bearing by overtorquing one of the nuts that holds the stepper couplers on.
[10:33:26] <joe9> but, buying a "taig cnc ready" is not "doing from scratch". Is it?
[10:33:27] <alex4nder> but I wouldn't have learned about how to disassemble my taig if I hadn't done that.
[10:33:52] <joe9> did you change the screws to ball screws?
[10:34:09] <alex4nder> all a "CNC ready" taig is the added mounting hardware.
[10:34:20] <alex4nder> everything else is up to you.
[10:34:27] <joe9> oh, ok. just the basic mill + mounting hardware.
[10:34:47] <alex4nder> no, I'm not running ballscrews.
[10:34:55] <joe9> did you have to do any machine work to get the mounts lined up oslt.
[10:35:00] <alex4nder> no
[10:35:07] <joe9> or, is it as simple as ordering the correct parts and assembling them.
[10:35:19] <alex4nder> "correct parts"
[10:35:34] <alex4nder> but yah, it's all about assembly.
[10:35:41] <joe9> and, I presume you use emc2 with it and not mach 3.
[10:35:44] <alex4nder> yup
[10:36:03] <joe9> are you kinda sure that you have the same accuracy as a "taig cnc mill"?
[10:36:13] <alex4nder> accuracy? how do you mean?
[10:36:39] <joe9> i keep reading that backlash cause the machine to go wrong after a few hours of work.
[10:37:01] <joe9> just curious, if you noticed anything like that.
[10:37:24] <alex4nder> I've noticed there's backlash, and I've had to compensate for it.
[10:37:28] <joe9> or, do you feel that your machine is in some way inferior to the "taig cnc mill"?
[10:37:29] <alex4nder> but every machine has that to some degree.
[10:37:45] <alex4nder> do you mean a DSLS 3000?
[10:38:15] <joe9> let me find the model number.
[10:38:58] <joe9> http://taigtools.com/cmill.html
[10:39:17] <alex4nder> ah
[10:39:29] <joe9> I am presuming that you bought this: http://taigtools.com/mmill.html
[10:40:27] <joe9> alex4nder: do you mind sharing your bom?
[10:41:01] <joe9> alex4nder: what other accessories did you buy from taig? such as collets/bits/(others, that I have no clue about?).
[10:41:17] <alex4nder> I just bought their package with the included collets and several endmills.
[10:41:33] <joe9> ok, cool. I think I have your package details.
[10:41:39] <alex4nder> you'll also want a 1" and 25mm open ended collet wrenches.
[10:42:23] <joe9> i am thinking of using this to mill pcb's.
[10:42:29] <joe9> just, as a fyi.
[10:43:09] <alex4nder> yah,. you'll ed up fighting backlash and runout doing that, but it sounds like it could be fun.
[10:43:14] <joe9> alex4nder: Would you remember any reasons why you went with a taig, instead of buying a cnc frame (such as sable 2015) and build it yourself?
[10:43:33] <alex4nder> well I wanted to do a lot of metal work.
[10:43:55] <joe9> alex4nder: for "fighting backlash and runout" -- It would be the same issue even if I buy the "Taig cnc mill", correct?
[10:43:59] <alex4nder> yes
[10:44:06] <alex4nder> the adjustments are identical
[10:44:09] <alex4nder> so are the critical parts
[10:44:13] <joe9> ok, cool.
[10:44:30] <alex4nder> joe9: I don't know, what are teh specs on this sable2015 as far as backlash?
[10:44:49] <joe9> alex4nder:http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sable-2015-CNC-ROUTER-ENGRAVER-mill-PCBs-engraving-/190636230989?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c62ce094d
[10:45:48] <joe9> alex4nder: from what I can read, I think you made a very wise choice (taig + gecko > taig cnc mill > sherline > X2), atleast for metals.
[10:46:14] <joe9> i am trying to justify why a taig would be better than sable 2015 + Proxxon IB/E.
[10:47:00] <alex4nder> hmm, they don't talk about backlash on this ebay page.. just that it has 'antibacklash nuts'
[10:47:24] <joe9> i plan on replacing those nuts/screws with ball screws, anyway.
[10:48:09] <joe9> at this point, my choices are: 1. your setup., 2. sable 2015 + Proxxon IB/E.
[10:48:34] <joe9> I do not have any other machine. so, I would be scrambling around to make the proxxon mount for the sable frame.
[10:48:41] <alex4nder> yah
[10:48:56] <joe9> I am not sure if there would be more things that I would have to worry about to get the accuracy to match that of the taig's.
[10:48:57] <alex4nder> that's the reason I got the taig delivered with manual handles
[10:49:17] <alex4nder> so I could mill any pieces before I got the CNC working.. turned out I didn't need to.
[10:49:56] <alex4nder> ok, bbl
[10:50:11] <joe9> oh, smart.
[11:06:50] <mazafaka> I went from work to home and has found some system block of computer in a trash bin, with GeForce 2MX, CD-ROM and DVD+RW, and some HDD. I have no cables and monitor, it must be working!
[11:07:16] <joe9> cool, that is a good setup.
[11:08:05] <mazafaka> for a realtime application interface? Will investigate with it soon
[11:12:15] <joe9> anyone have a sable 2015? and, have they tried using it to mill pcb's?
[11:12:35] <joe9> i read about sable 2015's backlash/runout not being good.
[11:12:46] <joe9> want to check if anyone has any experience with it?
[11:16:25] <mazafaka> baclash is a backlash, but factual ratio of the axes is important if your work considers many, many passess.
[11:19:05] <mazafaka> Backlashes on manual lathes are huge, but it doesn't cause failures in getting fine tolerances. You always have to compensate the backlash, which is a problem on a horisontal router or a mill. Our mill center vibrates a little when directions along axes (X or Y) are changed - unless the tiny backlash is compensated with a constant move to another side
[11:19:18] <mazafaka> need to reboot to linux, be right back
[11:22:42] <joe9> danimal_laptop: in the linuxemc archives, you offered to sell a medded sable 2015 to JaegarBar/tom3p.
[11:23:00] <joe9> wondering if you could offer some more insight into you sable 2015 experiences?
[11:24:53] <joe9> danimal_laptop: so, did you sell your modded sable 2015? I see some haggling going on. not sure what happened afterwards.
[11:26:40] <joe9> MattyMatt2: you seem to have some ideas about using a sable 2015 for milling pcb's?
[11:57:20] <alex4nder> re..
[11:59:11] <joe9> alex4nder: would you mind sharing your bom, please?
[11:59:15] <joe9> it would be a great help.
[11:59:18] <alex4nder> I don't remember it.
[11:59:23] <alex4nder> I'd have to go back to the workshop and catalog it.
[11:59:34] <joe9> I think what you did is the better option compared to using a sable
[11:59:40] <joe9> sable seems to be a hit or miss.
[12:05:43] <joe9> alex4nder: just wanted to check, did you research the sable before buying the taig?
[12:07:56] <alex4nder> joe9: not beyond deciding that that class of machine wasn't going to meet my requirements
[12:08:06] <jdhnc> taig and sable are not the same class of machine IMO
[12:08:35] <joe9> jdhnc: alex4nder: which "class"? they both seem to have similar working area?
[12:08:44] <joe9> sorry, if it is a noob question.
[12:09:35] <jdhnc> taig is a small envelope mill, sable is a router
[12:09:58] <joe9> jdhnc: are you talking about the "sable 2015" too?
[12:10:04] <jdhnc> the actual line dividing the two is nebulous I suppose, but I wouldn't consider them to be fungible
[12:10:14] <jdhnc> joe9: yes
[12:10:38] <joe9> "There is a limit on the sort of PCB that can be made. 15mil conductor widths are just not possible. Sorry, no. Not even on the really expensive CNC mills, despite what the ads say. Doing surface mount stuff on a CNC mill is a good way to stress yourself out. But, hey, don't believe me. Go try it for yourself." at http://www.eevblog.com/forum/general-chat/going-into-the-unknown-of-cnc-pcb-milling/
[12:10:55] <joe9> does anyone have any experiences that concur with this?
[12:11:26] <ssi> WOOOOOOOO
[12:11:36] <joe9> i am thinking of a taig to do 15 mil traces.. just found this note that says it is not possible. not sure how accurate that statement is.
[12:11:53] <cpresser> my opinion: 16mil is possible. but not easy.
[12:12:32] <joe9> cpresser: I am thinking of the taig to do that for smd ssop chips.
[12:12:52] <cpresser> using some Z-Adjust method helps a lot with tiny pcb features
[12:13:22] <joe9> cpresser: do you think that it is not possible for a noob? unless considerable time and effort is spent to become very good at it?
[12:13:23] <ssi> danimal_laptop: got my machine :D
[12:13:37] <danimal_laptop> nice!
[12:13:41] <danimal_laptop> how?
[12:13:48] <IchGuckLive> joe9: you can do this shouure
[12:13:53] <cpresser> joe9: i dont know what 'taig' is. but you will need to invest a lot of time. that is for sure :)
[12:14:20] <joe9> IchGuckLive: i know you use a sable 2015 frame to do pcb's.
[12:14:43] <joe9> is it hard for a noob to mill pcb's with ssop chips?
[12:14:51] <cpresser> http://phk.freebsd.dk/CncPcb/
[12:15:02] <IchGuckLive> yes the frame is milled on the mashine so it gives me 0.01mm z adjustment
[12:15:02] <joe9> IchGuckLive: i read about the sable table not being level. did you notice that issue?
[12:15:39] <IchGuckLive> that is not to be worried joe9
[12:15:50] <cpresser> as long as you use z-probing :)
[12:16:00] <IchGuckLive> as you go for standard cards you need a fixing for this
[12:16:09] <cpresser> otherwise it is quite an issue for small structures
[12:16:11] <joe9> IchGuckLive: how long did it take you to get the machine to mill pcb's after you receive the sable 2015?
[12:16:28] <joe9> do you have to machine any further parts to get the sable 2015 to work? other than the motor mount?
[12:16:53] <IchGuckLive> i got all parts made bymyself
[12:17:03] <joe9> IchGuckLive: "standard cards" -- what standard cards?
[12:17:20] <joe9> IchGuckLive: i do not have any other machine. I cannot make parts myself.
[12:17:21] <IchGuckLive> i use TB6560 and 23lm c355 astrosys
[12:17:51] <IchGuckLive> standard pcb euro cards are 160x100mm
[12:18:07] <joe9> IchGuckLive: if i cannot make the parts myself, then it is probably a bad idea to go the sable 2015 route.
[12:18:14] <joe9> IchGuckLive: do you agree?
[12:18:14] <IchGuckLive> so i added a self milled fixing that levels the table
[12:18:35] <IchGuckLive> no go for it
[12:18:58] <IchGuckLive> you will shure come into 1mm range
[12:19:08] <IchGuckLive> and the fixing does the rest
[12:19:12] <alex4nder> jdhnc: the taig and sable are in different classes just based on machine rigidity
[12:19:16] <joe9> oh, ok. thanks. that is off of my skill set now. I would love to learn it at some point, but, do not have the skills even to recognise issues, forget about fixing them.
[12:19:39] <joe9> IchGuckLive: 1mm is not good enough, unfortunately, for milling ssop pcb's.
[12:20:01] <joe9> cpresser: thanks for the link. interesting read.
[12:20:05] <IchGuckLive> the fixing needs to be milled to hold the pcb
[12:20:22] <alex4nder> joe9: I've measured the runout on my taig spindle to be .0004, and my backlash is on the order of .002-.001.5 .. so just do the math basedon that.
[12:20:29] <IchGuckLive> then the pcb is leveld to zero
[12:20:31] <alex4nder> er .0015
[12:20:51] <joe9> alex4nder: did you have any issues with the table not being level?
[12:21:26] <joe9> i like what IchGuckLive is saying about the sable 2015. but, for a noob like me, I think it will make me atleast a week or longer to get the sable 2015 to mill pcb's.
[12:21:43] <alex4nder> joe9: if I were doing PCBs, I'd do what IchGuckLive said, and then I'd also probably use a vacuum to fixture the PCB, and probe the board for Z compensation.
[12:22:00] <alex4nder> I don't remember what I measured the taig table to be.. but I could see it move on my DTI.
[12:22:17] <joe9> alex4nder: oh, really. you would? that was what I was looking for.
[12:22:21] <cpresser> building a simple vaccum table isnt that difficult.
[12:23:30] <IchGuckLive> most to worry is not the table its the tool holding the full pcb if it is beond 5m in length milling path joe9
[12:23:32] <joe9> cpresser: in the pcb image in that link, the 4 mil traces are pretty good.
[12:24:11] <joe9> IchGuckLive: the pcb's I am doing are 8 cm x 8cm and 10 cm x 10 cm in sizes.
[12:24:24] <cpresser> in my personal experiencen this does not work with a really good fixture, or using z-adjust
[12:24:32] <cpresser> having both gives good results
[12:24:57] <cpresser> ~does not work, until you use a really good fixture...
[12:25:06] <IchGuckLive> in eagle to pcb-gcode you can deside different tools for different mil
[12:25:38] <alex4nder> also is the taig spindle top-speed good enough for the bits you're using?
[12:25:58] <joe9> i think the 10k rpm is good enough.
[12:26:22] <IchGuckLive> joe9: imilled fixers out of a necuron8000 this is then 1mil in zadjust do dont worry about this on your 4mil with
[12:26:34] <joe9> IchGuckLive: this is the bom I have from my earlier conversation with you: http://codepad.org/Lah4hzaC
[12:26:37] <IchGuckLive> joe9: no 40.000 min
[12:27:07] <cpresser> IchGuckLive: just to make sure: 16mil = 16/1000inch, not 16mm :)
[12:27:43] <IchGuckLive> 16mil are in eagle i guess
[12:27:59] <IchGuckLive> so its 0,3mm
[12:28:09] <joe9> IchGuckLive: how long will it take to assemble and get the cnc working, after I receive the sable 2015 and order the correct parts (stepper drivers + psu).
[12:28:13] <IchGuckLive> 10eagle mill is 0,25
[12:28:34] <IchGuckLive> joe9: why not the 3030
[12:28:44] <IchGuckLive> this is ready tuo use
[12:28:57] <IchGuckLive> and has a mutch more precissen
[12:29:11] <joe9> which is the 3030? i would love to get more precision.
[12:29:31] <joe9> i hear they use mdf instead
[12:29:54] <IchGuckLive> http://www.ebay.de/itm/CNC-3020-Router-Engraver-Drilling-Milling-machine-Neu-/280680085334?_trksid=p5197.m185&_trkparms=algo%3DSIC.NPJS%26itu%3DI%252BUA%26otn%3D12%26pmod%3D120833940263%252B120834810495%252B120813745732%26po%3DLVI%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D5325942910028628560
[12:29:55] <joe9> and that sable 2015 > cnc 3030 or cnc 3040 for precision and rigidity.
[12:30:36] <IchGuckLive> 1204 trapezoidal screws
[12:31:22] <IchGuckLive> this is for 12D and 4mm /rev thread leadscrew
[12:31:39] <IchGuckLive> as you go for 400/st/rev
[12:31:46] <IchGuckLive> it gives you 0,01mm
[12:32:13] <IchGuckLive> at a 1500mm/min speed
[12:32:20] <joe9> what about collects / bits?
[12:32:56] <IchGuckLive> standard
[12:33:37] <joe9> this seems to be better for me. thanks.
[12:34:20] <IchGuckLive> if you only need 10x10cm you are done with the Proyyon MP70 all for 100dollar retail sail
[12:34:41] <joe9> oh, really.
[12:34:49] <IchGuckLive> this will go 120x120 at 0,005
[12:35:27] <joe9> you mean proxxon mp70, correct/
[12:36:15] <joe9> or is it Proxxon MF70?
[12:36:31] <joe9> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p95cTNj25QQ
[12:37:05] <IchGuckLive> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unZAMog39ZU
[12:37:51] <syyl> 0,005mm?
[12:37:54] <IchGuckLive> this video is with Nema23 the nema17 is enoph
[12:38:03] <joe9> IchGuckLive: ok, thanks.
[12:38:13] <IchGuckLive> this mahines have no backlash
[12:38:32] * syyl takes some popcorn
[12:38:36] <alex4nder> haha
[12:38:40] <alex4nder> syyl: can I have some
[12:38:49] <syyl> i heard "no backlash" a few times :D
[12:38:51] <syyl> sure
[12:38:54] <syyl> :)
[12:39:39] <IchGuckLive> syyl: if they come out of factory but as i prooved at the first crash they got some
[12:40:11] <IchGuckLive> the leadscrew are in plastic fixures
[12:40:36] <syyl> sounds very stiff
[12:41:06] <joe9> IchGuckLive: is this the same thing? http://www.amazon.com/Proxxon-37110-Micro-Mill-MF/dp/B0017PTAHG
[12:41:13] <joe9> $376 is not bad at all.
[12:41:50] <alex4nder> joe9: note that the 2 star review complains about "When I received mine I thought it was a bad one (previously used or tampered with) because the z-axis hand wheel had a full 1/4 turn of play."
[12:42:21] <syyl> extruded ways ;)
[12:43:49] <IchGuckLive> joe9: there are a view models the MF70 is only the spindle it goes from 1.5" square to 3inch square milling
[12:44:28] <IchGuckLive> joe9: go for the 3030 and you are happy within years
[12:44:58] <jdhnc> or within weeks if you are lucky.
[12:45:09] <joe9> IchGuckLive: 3030 is what you recommend? 3030 > 3020 > sable 2015 > taig ?
[12:45:15] <alex4nder> haha
[12:45:28] <IchGuckLive> its up to you
[12:45:51] <alex4nder> it's all about application.. don't compare a sable to a taig from an objective viewpoint
[12:46:16] <jdhnc> or any viewpoint really.
[12:46:18] <syyl> the taig seems to be a pretty good machine
[12:46:29] <IchGuckLive> jdhnc: the 1204 trapezial with alu frame coudt be easy done to 0,01mm with industrial parts if it is not in a good shape
[12:46:31] <syyl> at least as a conventional machine...
[12:46:38] <alex4nder> the sable is marketed as a router/engraver for a reason
[12:47:02] <jdhnc> Ich: it was a joke, you really meant "happy for years" instead of "happy within years"
[12:47:09] <jdhnc> I assume.
[12:47:35] <IchGuckLive> im german eng speeking O.o
[12:47:44] <joe9> IchGuckLive: where do you buy the cnc 3020 and cnc 3030? ebay? I am looking for someone more reputed..
[12:47:48] <IchGuckLive> someone has aling to the taig
[12:48:07] <IchGuckLive> a link
[12:48:09] <syyl> google is down? Oo
[12:48:12] <alex4nder> haha
[12:48:37] <alex4nder> we're specifically talking about the 2019CR right?
[12:48:58] <joe9> alex4nder: yes.
[12:49:07] <joe9> atleast, I am.
[12:49:09] <alex4nder> w/ their ER16 spindle
[12:49:25] <alex4nder> joe9: where do you live?
[12:49:32] <joe9> atlanta, usa
[12:49:50] <IchGuckLive> jd will give you asist !!
[12:50:07] <IchGuckLive> he is around you
[12:50:36] <IchGuckLive> im shure he has a old brighport to sell
[12:50:44] <jdhnc> joe9: the perfect machine does not exist. Certainly not in hobbyist prices. There is no given machine that is inherently better than anything similar, they are all tradeoffs.
[12:50:53] <jdhnc> Ich: cutting pcb's with a bridgeport?
[12:51:08] <IchGuckLive> why not
[12:51:15] <alex4nder> not to mention: there's so much more to machining thatn the machine.
[12:51:21] <IchGuckLive> on the kitchen table
[12:51:39] <joe9> jdhnc: i agree it is a tradeoff. i just do not want to spend time/money and realise that the product is not good enough for milling pcb's.
[12:51:52] <IchGuckLive> joe9: at the end it all depends on the price
[12:52:07] <jdhnc> joe9: do you need to mill pcbs?
[12:52:10] <joe9> taig is awesome. it seems easy to get it working (assemble) and it seems to have the accuracy enough for milling pcb's.
[12:52:21] <IchGuckLive> jdhnc: agree
[12:52:23] <joe9> jdhnc: yes, mill pcb'.s
[12:52:32] <jdhnc> joe9: can't you make them via traditional ways, using the interwebbes and cheap chinese board houses?
[12:52:50] <IchGuckLive> joe9: i only mill the prototypes then give it to a pcb maker
[12:53:02] <joe9> mine is the prototypes too.
[12:53:30] <jdhnc> you can proto a lot of boards before you recover the cost of a mill
[12:53:41] <alex4nder> yah
[12:53:57] <IchGuckLive> joe9: jsd and i try to say there are also 1week pcb makers around that will love to do the job
[12:54:17] <alex4nder> what about just building a photo-resist setup, using a cheap mini projector as the light-source?
[12:54:19] <cpresser> or etch the pcb
[12:54:21] <syyl> and you get perfect prototypes...
[12:54:36] <IchGuckLive> mine here carge 15USD for 80x80mm
[12:54:36] <syyl> no worries about the problems with milled pcbs..
[12:54:47] <joe9> IchGuckLive: jdhnc: alex4nder: I definitely need a cnc m/c to mill pcb's. I have thought about fab's and all that. At this point, it is deciding which one for me.
[12:54:57] <cpresser> most of the stuff required for chemical etching can be found in other ppls. junk :)
[12:54:57] <alex4nder> ok
[12:55:15] <IchGuckLive> joe9: ok
[12:55:30] <IchGuckLive> then its as wee alll said up to you
[12:55:41] <IchGuckLive> you got 4 routers to decide
[12:56:38] <djdelorie> concrete cleaner, laundry detergent, peroxide, drain cleaner, and sunlight = UV pcb etching :-)
[12:56:40] <jdhnc> joe9: you will never know what you need to know until you get one and try.
[12:56:41] <joe9> alex4nder's taig is my benchmark machine. I like it. I like IchGuckLive's ideas about cnc 3020 or Proxxon MF 70 or Sable 2015. but, I am a little nervous that I do not have the skills/machinery to make mounts or stuff like that.
[12:56:46] <joe9> and, I will get stuck.
[12:57:08] <syyl> and as a bonus
[12:57:10] <djdelorie> or you could spend $100K on a LPKF pcb mill...
[12:57:15] <syyl> the taig is a real milling machine...
[12:57:31] <syyl> small, but a real machine...
[12:57:31] <IchGuckLive> sable 2015 is out of your need
[12:57:44] <syyl> such small routers are more kinda toy
[12:57:59] <syyl> and when time goes by
[12:58:04] <syyl> you will machine other things
[12:58:11] <IchGuckLive> as you whant to do it plug and play there are only view mor options MF70 is off your table also
[12:58:17] <alex4nder> djdelorie: I'd love to see the RoI numbers
[12:58:17] <syyl> test adapters for your pcbs, or horunsings, or bla
[12:58:29] <alex4nder> yah
[12:58:38] <syyl> *housings
[12:58:40] <alex4nder> that in a nutshell is why you should get a real mill.
[12:58:45] <joe9> ok, thanks folks. http://www.taigtools.com/2018special2.html seems to be my best bet.
[12:58:47] <djdelorie> I think I spent about $20 on chemicals, plus about $1 per board for supplies.
[12:59:11] <syyl> if you see the mf70 in real life
[12:59:21] <syyl> you will laugh your ass of ;)
[12:59:26] <djdelorie> actually, I steal the laundry detergent from my wife's supply...
[12:59:33] <joe9> syyl: why?
[12:59:38] <joe9> is it that small?
[12:59:41] <alex4nder> joe9: the other thing that's good with the taig, is it comes ready to go.
[12:59:45] <ssi> danimal_laptop: sry, back...
[12:59:46] <skunkworks> is linuxcnc.org down?
[12:59:55] <alex4nder> the backlash and gibs were setup pretty well
[12:59:57] <syyl> a bit smaller, joe9
[13:00:00] <ssi> danimal_laptop: drug a truck and trailer up there, comealong and a chain to pull it onto the trailer
[13:00:03] <Jymmm> alex_joni: Top this... http://tmblr.co/ZhWSgxDCwvBj
[13:00:07] <ssi> it was miserable but we got it done
[13:00:15] <syyl> and the ways are made from extruded aluminum...
[13:00:26] <syyl> and the spindlemotor is a joke
[13:00:27] <alex4nder> skunkworks: it's not responding for me.
[13:00:38] <skunkworks> ok - (just making sure it isn't me)
[13:01:00] <syyl> takes tools to max shank diameter of 1/8"
[13:01:08] <IchGuckLive> taig is not for pcb as there is no precission replacement
[13:01:16] <syyl> the taig takes 10mm in the collets
[13:01:30] <joe9> djdelorie: are you talking about the "toner transfer process"?
[13:01:33] <IchGuckLive> taig no rpm
[13:01:39] <syyl> why shouldnt he be able to mill pcbs on the taig!?
[13:01:40] <djdelorie> no UV film
[13:01:48] <joe9> djdelorie: oh, sorry. uv.. photo etching?
[13:01:52] <djdelorie> yup
[13:02:01] <IchGuckLive> this is the best
[13:02:07] <joe9> djdelorie: the photo resist pcb's are pretty expensive?
[13:02:17] <djdelorie> I laminate them myself
[13:02:21] <IchGuckLive> im doing also the brass with it
[13:02:34] <alex4nder> syyl: yah, the taig comes with a 3/8" er16 collet from the factory.. and if you're getting crazy, A2Z makes some endmill holders that bolt ot the spindle.
[13:02:36] <IchGuckLive> 0,3mm within 30min
[13:03:33] <djdelorie> IchGuckLive: if you're chemically etching metal, try aluminum. It reacts FAST with plan HCl, almost boils the Al away
[13:03:48] <Jymmm> cradek: jepler JT-Shop SWPadnos alex_joni archivist http://tmblr.co/ZhWSgxCJkiz7
[13:03:53] <alex4nder> you can preload the shit out of the taig bearings to remove as much backlash as possible, just make sure you have spares.
[13:04:01] <IchGuckLive> agree but for train modell brass is best
[13:05:07] <Jymmm> archivist: Is this one of your creations? http://tmblr.co/ZhWSgxC5SWQc
[13:06:00] <joe9> djdelorie: how do you laminate the pcb's? do you have any url's? sorry for the bother.
[13:06:12] <djdelorie> with a laminator, of course ;-)
[13:07:25] <alex4nder> he steals his wife's clothing iron
[13:07:44] <joe9> like this: http://www.thinktink.com/stack/volumes/volvi/pholam.htm
[13:07:44] <syyl> you dont have a iron in your shop?
[13:07:45] <Jymmm> who says his wife owns the iron?
[13:07:45] <joe9> cool.
[13:08:01] <alex4nder> joe9: his wife owns the detergent, I just assumed.
[13:08:05] <alex4nder> er Jymmm
[13:08:16] <Jymmm> heh
[13:08:29] <Jymmm> DO YOUR OWN DAMN LAUNDRY!
[13:08:40] <syyl> he
[13:08:44] <alex4nder> wut?
[13:08:49] <alex4nder> is this a sore subject
[13:13:01] <syyl> ah, topslide of my lathe.. :D
[13:13:03] <syyl> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/24396704/IMG_0125.jpg
[13:13:11] <joe9> yield as low as 50%
[13:13:20] <syyl> the numbers are height differences in 1/100 of a mm
[13:13:32] <syyl> a bit off..
[13:14:06] <syyl> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/24396704/IMG_0134.jpg
[13:14:11] <syyl> scraping..
[13:14:18] <syyl> better :D
[13:14:19] <syyl> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/24396704/IMG_0136.jpg
[13:14:26] <syyl> now the numbers are in 1/1000 of a mm
[13:14:28] <jdhnc> at least that side was high instead of low.
[13:15:01] <ssi> what are you using to spot that surface?
[13:15:03] <jdhnc> are you going to scrape everything you own now?
[13:15:14] <syyl> only my lathe jdhnc :D
[13:15:23] <syyl> dykem hispot blue
[13:15:29] <jdhnc> what are you using for scrapers?
[13:15:29] <ssi> I mean what kind of surface
[13:15:37] <ssi> with that post on there, you can't spot it against your plate
[13:15:42] <syyl> yeah
[13:15:49] <syyl> i made something...
[13:16:00] <ssi> also, do you want to come scrape in my clausing when you're done? :D
[13:16:00] <syyl> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/24396704/IMG_0132.jpg
[13:16:04] <syyl> uhm
[13:16:12] <syyl> 80bucks/hour
[13:16:13] <syyl> :D
[13:16:16] <ssi> hahahaha
[13:16:29] <ssi> I bought some tools and started scraping in a little piece of iron bar
[13:16:31] <ssi> it mostly blows
[13:16:36] <syyl> carbide scraper, jdhnc
[13:16:39] <syyl> manual...
[13:16:47] <syyl> but a friend lends me his biax power scaper
[13:17:12] <ssi> I have bigger fish to fry than screw with that lathe these days
[13:17:23] <ssi> I bought three new major tools in the last three days :D
[13:18:58] <djdelorie> I have my own laminator, using an iron sucks. Mine is hacked to be temperature controlled too: http://www.delorie.com/electronics/laminator/
[13:19:19] <syyl> and which tools, ssi? :D
[13:19:27] <syyl> pics or it didnt happen
[13:19:31] <syyl> ;)
[13:19:33] <ssi> hehehe
[13:19:41] <ssi> nothing's unloaded yet, so the pics mostly suck
[13:19:58] <ssi> http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/420990_804691220892_71107655_35444730_829481504_n.jpg
[13:20:08] <ssi> I bought a grizzly 7x12 bandsaw
[13:20:11] <ssi> a Hardinge HNC
[13:20:16] <ssi> and a FORKLIFT!!!!! :D
[13:20:28] <syyl> oh
[13:20:34] <syyl> thats some serious stuff
[13:20:36] <jdhnc> what's all that stuff on the ground?
[13:21:00] <syyl> and the forklift is necessary with the heavy machinery ;)
[13:21:47] <JT-Shop> ssi: a HNC?
[13:25:31] <ssi> JT-Shop: ya :D
[13:25:42] <JT-Shop> nice!
[13:29:00] <joe9> ichgucklive seems to think cnc 3020 is a better fit for my need over the taig. he seems to be a hardcore machinist and his arguments are convincing to me, as a noob.
[13:29:30] <joe9> with the taig, I can probably ping alex4nder and there is also a lot of stuff on the web about it.
[13:29:36] <ssi> JT-Shop: do you have one?
[13:29:54] <JT-Shop> I have a CHNC I
[13:29:55] <joe9> with the cnc 3020, I cannot find much info on the web, other than what the sellers are saying.
[13:29:59] <ssi> nice :D
[13:30:15] <ssi> well you can send me whatever 3/8" tooling you end up with ;)
[13:30:26] <ssi> and I'll exchange it for whatever 1/2" stuff I find
[13:30:57] <jdhnc> joe9: do you want a mill or a PCB router?
[13:31:06] <syyl> any self respecing machinist would run away by the sight of the 3020 ;)
[13:31:26] <joe9> jdhnc: i want something to be able to drill holes (through holes and non-through holes) and make traces on a pcb.
[13:31:44] <jdhnc> what's a non-through hole?
[13:31:49] <joe9> just a slot.
[13:32:12] <syyl> a blind hole?
[13:32:17] <jdhnc> what's your budget, roughly?
[13:32:23] <joe9> not going through the pcb, just a slot on top, almost similar to how the copper is etched out, but circular.
[13:32:31] <joe9> syyl: yes, blind hole.
[13:32:51] <joe9> jdhnc: I can buy the taig cnc mill at 2500/-, if that is what I need to.
[13:33:06] <joe9> but, it is not that I have free money.
[13:33:28] <joe9> it is just that the need outweighs such financial constraints.
[13:33:39] <joe9> jdhnc: does that make sense?
[13:33:53] <joe9> i do not want to spend weeks trying to figure out why the machine is inaccurate
[13:34:03] <joe9> or, trying to find other pars or something like that.
[13:34:19] <ssi> JT-Shop: I have this insane desire to get my hands on a tape punch and run some programs through the original control before I dismantle it
[13:34:21] <jdhnc> a factory taig is probably a good bet for being up and running quickly. It also costs 4x as much
[13:35:00] <joe9> jdhnc: this seems to be a safe bet too: http://www.taigtools.com/2018special2.html
[13:35:26] <joe9> and, add steppers, gecko g540 and psu
[13:35:34] <JT-Shop> ssi: that could be both fun and a time sink :)
[13:35:46] <joe9> jdhnc: alex4nder seems to think around 4 hours'ish.
[13:35:47] <syyl> or chance for a awesome crash? ;)
[13:35:52] <joe9> which I think is reasonable.
[13:35:57] <ssi> JT-Shop: I'm not so much worried about the time... mostly just the money for a punch. There's one on ebay for $300
[13:36:09] <jdhnc> plus cash
[13:36:25] <ssi> JT-Shop: I have all the manuals for the machine and the control... it'll read ASCII tape, 7 hole, and it's just direct G-code to ASCII. Pretty easy conversion
[13:37:07] <ssi> the guy I bought it from was running it that way... had four of them
[13:37:09] <JT-Shop> for $257.88 you could have a 5i25 + 7i77 + cable....
[13:37:27] <ssi> oh it's gonna get mesa'd up in fine style
[13:37:37] <JT-Shop> didn't he give you a sample tape to play with
[13:37:42] <ssi> I jsut want to run it off the paper tape for the sheer joy of it
[13:37:43] <ssi> sadly, no
[13:37:52] <ssi> he was also stingy with tooling
[13:38:00] <ssi> I had to buy every piece of tooling that I wanted from him
[13:38:30] <ssi> and he had no boring bar holders... so I'm gonna have to scour ebay for bar/drill holders
[13:38:37] <ssi> I bought one already off ebay... AHC21
[13:42:29] <JT-Shop> mine came with a full set of metric ER40 collets LOL, I gave them to cradek as he had the JR I think that could use collets that big
[13:42:38] <ssi> haha nice
[13:42:55] <JT-Shop> does yours have the 1/2 turret?
[13:43:03] <ssi> I have a set of ER16 collets... was thinking about trying to get a 5/8" shank ER16 chuck to put in an AHC21
[13:43:06] <ssi> no it's the 3/8" turret
[13:43:13] <ssi> uses the C and AHC tooling
[13:43:50] <JT-Shop> I got a ER16 and 20 chuck for mine to hold drill bits and taps
[13:43:55] <ssi> also wondering if I can put the HNC to work making its own drill bushings :D
[13:44:29] <JT-Shop> first thing I made on mine was the seal bushings for all the covers
[13:44:45] <ssi> aha
[13:45:01] <JT-Shop> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4-lUNa0CpY
[13:45:23] <ssi> ahahahah
[13:45:24] <JT-Shop> and after I got my mind right http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isTD6bDF_LI
[13:45:39] <ssi> hurt anything?
[13:46:06] <JT-Shop> put a small divot in the collet, scared the crap out of me... rest ok
[13:46:10] <ssi> so yea that tool holder that you're using there
[13:46:15] <ssi> is like a CC-15 or something similar?
[13:46:17] <ssi> I need a couple of those
[13:46:20] <ssi> the different lengths
[13:46:23] <JT-Shop> yea
[13:46:25] <ssi> thinking I might make them
[13:46:27] <ssi> cause they're $$$
[13:46:33] <syyl> your fingers that close to the spindle scare me :D
[13:46:44] <syyl> ok, pretty safe with the collet chuck
[13:46:45] <syyl> but..
[13:46:47] <syyl> wha :D
[13:46:59] <JT-Shop> CC14 is the smaller one, CC15 is the longer one
[13:47:06] <ssi> there's actually CC13-16
[13:47:14] <ssi> they're like 2" thru 5"
[13:47:32] <ssi> looks like pretty nice work though
[13:47:36] <JT-Shop> you don't see 13 and 15 often on flea bay
[13:47:49] <ssi> the guy that sold me this machine was making little inconel fuel nozzles for jet engine
[13:47:52] <ssi> among other things
[13:47:57] <ssi> and I was really impressed with the work that it was turning out
[13:47:58] <JT-Shop> it's always a toss up with tooling and material
[13:47:59] <syyl> like the use of the cutoff tool to pull the stock material out
[13:48:17] <JT-Shop> cradek taught me that
[13:48:23] <ssi> yea I've seen his vids doing that
[13:48:25] <ssi> nice trick :D
[13:49:07] <JT-Shop> got to move Z back a bit when you close the collet
[13:49:37] <ssi> have any other vids of making parts?
[13:50:16] <mrsun> hmm, wonder if 0.5 degree angle over 5mm is enough to jam a pipe tight in a hole =)
[13:50:28] <JT-Shop> ssi: no that seems to be it
[13:50:28] <mrsun> (tapered from all directions at 0.5 degrees to center the pipe in the hole
[13:52:18] <mrsun> or 0.13mm thats the endmill i got on hand atm
[13:52:57] <mrsun> feels like it would be to much if the hole is exactly like the pipe in dimensions, tho i doubt steel pipe is extremly accurate in its dimensions =)
[13:58:43] <joe9> alex4nder: what steppers did you use?
[14:00:01] <alex4nder> 166oz vextas
[14:00:50] <alex4nder> at 48 volts
[14:00:53] <ssi> JT-Shop: you been pretty happy with the accuracy you get out of it?
[14:01:21] <joe9> alex4nder: what about the power supply? did you buy it? or, make it yourself?
[14:01:34] <joe9> i know you use 48 volt psu.
[14:01:48] <JT-Shop> yea, mine was in good shape when I got it except for the belts on the servos
[14:02:23] <alex4nder> joe9: I bought it.. ti's a meanwell
[14:02:27] <alex4nder> er it's
[14:04:33] <joe9> alex4nder: is there any reason you went with steppers over servos?
[14:05:01] <alex4nder> joe9: because servos bump the price up, add complexity, and I had enough to learn besides configuring stepper drivers.
[14:05:04] <alex4nder> er servo drivers
[14:08:51] <joe9> alex4nder: there seems to be a bunch of meanwell psu's. do you happen to remember the model no oslt?
[14:09:19] <alex4nder> no
[14:09:30] <joe9> how many outputs?
[14:10:05] <alex4nder> the one I have has a header, but it's mainly just AC input, 48V output, and ground.
[14:10:33] <joe9> oh, just one output and all the motors are connected to the same output?
[14:10:57] <ssi> I can't wait til my forklift is delivered :D :D :D
[14:11:01] <ssi> I feel like a kid on christmas
[14:11:50] <joe9> alex4nder: i assume 3 steppers (166oz vexta motors), correct?
[14:12:57] <alex4nder> yup
[14:13:23] <alex4nder> joe9: the power supply hooks to the driver, the driver hooks to the motor.
[14:13:42] <joe9> oh, gotcha. so, one output is good enough from the psu.
[14:14:15] <joe9> thanks.
[14:14:55] <joe9> alex4nder: do you like the vise that came with the package?
[14:15:00] <alex4nder> not really
[14:15:07] <alex4nder> but it gets the job done.
[14:15:41] <joe9> I have a 2.5 inch harbor freight drill press vise. not sure, if this might be better than that.
[14:16:30] <joe9> or, I could save some bucks by not buying it.
[14:16:44] <joe9> alex4nder: did you upgrade your motor to 1/4 hp?
[14:16:47] <alex4nder> yes.
[14:17:04] <alex4nder> joe9: BTW, you're going to want a dial test indicator
[14:17:15] <alex4nder> possibly some dial calipers
[14:17:39] <joe9> I have a dial indicator and dial calipers from HarborFreight.
[14:17:43] <alex4nder> ah
[14:17:58] <joe9> i am assuming "dial test indicator" == "dial indicator".
[14:18:03] <alex4nder> no
[14:18:12] <alex4nder> but you can get by witha dial indicator and the proper mount
[14:18:32] <joe9> oh, ok. i have the magnetic mount for the dial indicator.
[14:18:46] <alex4nder> yah, you might run into some annoyance with that: the taig has a lot of aluminum.
[14:18:54] <alex4nder> but it can be made to work.
[14:20:08] <ssi> just get one'em aluminum magnets
[14:20:43] <ssi> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bo9xY4e9T58
[14:20:50] <joe9> ok, will search for aluminum magnet. can it be "aluminum magnet -> magnetic stand -> dial indicator"
[14:21:46] <alex4nder> ssi: haha
[14:22:01] <ssi> :D
[14:22:11] <alex4nder> joe9: let me know when you find one.
[14:22:23] <joe9> oh, he was kidding.
[14:22:34] <ssi> someone once asked me if the tail numbers on the side of my airplane were magnetic signs
[14:24:51] <alex4nder> I should just post everything I've purchased to get my taig up and running.
[14:24:57] <alex4nder> bbl.
[14:25:03] <ssi> what's the taig cost?
[14:25:39] <joe9> ssi,not funny...
[14:25:44] <joe9> http://www.taigtools.com/2018special2.html
[14:26:16] <ssi> are you looking at the mill?
[14:27:17] <joe9> ssi: yes. why do you ask? mill "computer" ready, though.
[14:27:19] <ssi> have you thought about something like a BF20? for not much more you can get a considerably stouter machine
[14:27:41] <joe9> no, what is a "BF20"? more details, please?
[14:27:59] <ssi> http://www.grizzly.com/products/Drill-Mill-with-Stand/G0704
[14:28:00] <ssi> that's what I have
[14:28:06] <ssi> taht's a BF20-style machine
[14:28:07] <joe9> $999.00 is the price of the package that I am looking at.
[14:28:20] <ssi> http://www.bf20.com/
[14:28:44] <ssi> it's maybe not quite as conversion friendly as whatever the "computer ready" gets you
[14:28:47] <ssi> but it's a lot more machine
[14:28:54] <joe9> ssi, i do not think that stuff is accurate.
[14:28:58] <joe9> let me check though
[14:29:30] <joe9> the speed is way too low for milling pcb's, imho.
[14:29:36] <ssi> oh you're doing pcb stuff, eh
[14:29:40] <ssi> sorry I could have read backscroll I guess
[14:29:42] <joe9> yes.
[14:31:35] <joe9> alex4nder: 'I should just post everything I've purchased to get my taig up and running." -- Please, that would be a huge help.
[15:03:36] <mrsun> hmm, if my cnc machine is any type of accurate i should not need to make stuff for the next machine adjustable
[15:04:10] <Thetawaves> ha ha ha
[15:04:23] <mrsun> :P
[15:04:48] <mrsun> hate having stuff adjustable, adds complexity to the parts :(
[15:05:26] <mrsun> and most often reduces rigidity =)
[15:06:33] <alex4nder> but then you can't compensate for age/wear.
[15:06:35] <Mjolinor> adjustability adds a certain freedom to some parts adn I am pretty sure you woudl be walking with a limp without that ability
[15:08:26] <mrsun> i guess i could oversize the holes some for the profiles
[15:08:36] <mrsun> so they could be shimmed on each side
[15:10:06] <joe9> alex4nder: what do you think of this? PART# 1026 - Depth Stop ($3.75) http://www.taigtools.com/c1026.html , useful?
[15:10:28] <joe9> do I need a chuck or does the m/c come with a chuck?
[15:10:47] <joe9> I know it comes with collets, but, not sure if I need a chuck too.
[15:11:08] <joe9> chuck + arbor, I mean.
[15:11:12] <alex4nder> you'll want one.
[15:11:15] <alex4nder> you don't need the depth stop
[15:11:21] <joe9> ok, thanks.
[15:11:32] <alex4nder> get ready for the runout on some of these chucks though
[15:11:49] <joe9> alex4nder: 'I should just post everything I've purchased to get my taig up and running." --- would you be able to do this?
[15:12:19] <alex4nder> joe9: yah, at some point.
[15:12:49] <joe9> ok, thanks. should I wait for it? or, just go ahead with finding the parts I need?
[15:13:04] <alex4nder> you should be looking for parts: you might find better ones than I did.
[15:14:36] <mrsun> i wonder how much adjustability would be needed ... if the wear would be over .1mm i guess i would start replacing stuff :P
[15:15:10] <joe9> alex4nder: i am more concerned that I might miss something and that would put a delay later on..
[15:15:47] <mrsun> and the adjustment mostly i guess would be in the bearings not the actual guideways
[15:16:27] <alex4nder> joe9: well you're always going to get delays
[15:16:36] <alex4nder> if you don't want delays, then just buy turnkey
[15:16:59] <alex4nder> I spent two weeks picking out cable for my servo motors.
[15:17:15] <joe9> i thought you used steppers?
[15:17:20] <alex4nder> er steppers
[15:30:41] <jdhnc> do you have your circuits designed and CAM'ed?
[15:31:01] <jdhnc> pcb hold downs, spoil boards, drills, mills
[15:31:05] <joe9> jdhnc: i have a .pcb and gerber files and I use the geda tools.
[15:31:20] <joe9> jdhnc: i think there is an option to export gcode too from geda.
[15:31:57] <joe9> jdhnc: this is the email I sent to the taig forums http://codepad.org/cp42nJXq
[15:32:24] <joe9> hoping that someone can recommend a good place to buy milling bits (and, the recommended chuck and arbor).
[15:32:50] <joe9> thanks for the suggestion on "pcb hold downs" and "spoil boards". will google them.
[15:33:25] <joe9> found this link: http://www.soigeneris.com/PCB_Tools-list.aspx
[15:36:37] <alex4nder> soigeneris is legit
[15:36:48] <jdhnc> http://www.thinktink.com/
[15:41:46] <joe9> alex4nder: what do you think of this: http://schoepp.hylands.net/cnctaig.html
[15:43:13] <raynerd> Hola - anyone in here used a pc power supply or a couple in series for their CNC PSU?
[15:43:31] <joe9> i do not think the pc psu would work.
[15:43:34] <jthornton> no
[15:43:40] <joe9> it could be switching power supply
[15:43:49] <joe9> and the cnc needs linear power supply, imho.
[15:44:00] <raynerd> ahh :( there goes that idea
[15:44:07] <jdhnc> my router has a switching PS
[15:44:14] <Mjolinor> I use a PS3 one, very cheap, losts of amps :)
[15:44:20] <joe9> checkout meanwell psu's. they seem pretty good.
[15:44:25] <Mjolinor> 32 amp 12 volts £5
[15:44:47] <alex4nder> joe9: I use switching PSUs
[15:44:49] <raynerd> Hi Mjolinor! The cnc up and running
[15:44:57] <Mjolinor> :) mostly
[15:45:05] <raynerd> good stuff.
[15:45:10] <raynerd> and the spindle ok?
[15:45:21] <Mjolinor> i am jsut about to rip the PSU apart, I put a short bit of nichrome wire in there in case I did anythign wrong
[15:45:34] <Mjolinor> but it needs removing now it is sorted so I can have all the amps
[15:45:51] <Mjolinor> spindle is OK, lacking power but its that wire that is doing it
[15:46:30] <raynerd> I see. Well I`ve got all the parts to make my spindle
[15:46:41] <Mjolinor> same motor?
[15:47:32] <Mjolinor> have you niticed there are soem of the Teps on ebay?
[15:47:38] <Mjolinor> guy has 6 of them or soemthign like that
[15:47:42] <raynerd> no, I`ve gone for a slightly different idea. I`ve got for a bigger motor with an 8mm shaft and then ordered (not arrived yet so can`t start!) an 8mm straight shank er16 chuck. Going to replace the motor shaft with that and add a bearing house on the top.
[15:47:55] <raynerd> wow,...not noticed them
[15:48:06] <Mjolinor> motor off ebay?
[15:48:36] <raynerd> actually it wasn`t... one second
[15:50:04] <raynerd> http://www.giantcod.co.uk/xyh5045-890kv-outrunnner-p-404603.html
[15:50:59] <Mjolinor> what are you going to power that with?
[15:51:23] <Mjolinor> you will need a car battery or deep pockets for that current
[15:51:33] <raynerd> lol.. a PC atx supply...or was going to!
[15:51:53] <Mjolinor> wont do it
[15:52:19] <raynerd> well, that is what I thought, but I`ve been chatting to a chap who has made a set of 4 or 5 spindles and posted them on mycncuk and he said he has used atx supplies.
[15:52:26] <Mjolinor> you need 30 amps at 22 volts to get full power off it
[15:52:57] <raynerd> he said that 12v gets him to a more than usable speed??
[15:52:57] <Mjolinor> ok, well Ill let you spend the money then gladly receive a report on how well it works :)
[15:53:06] <raynerd> :P too late now :(
[15:53:14] <Mjolinor> it will be fine I am sure
[15:53:41] <raynerd> haha... knowing your workshop, I in no way doubt your advice!
[15:53:45] <Mjolinor> but it wont be anywhere near max power though that is probaly a good thing anyway
[15:54:29] <Mjolinor> I think also you may need to add a fan, my motor has a fan type casting so it shifts a lot of air through the motor but that one doesnt look as though it has
[15:54:34] <raynerd> http://www.mycncuk.com/forums/showthread.php/3793-Diy-brushless-spindle
[15:54:46] <Mjolinor> so without the forward movement of the aeroplane it may get hot
[15:55:43] <alex4nder> what's the coupling between the motor and the spindle?
[15:55:56] <alex4nder> "hard"?
[15:56:34] <ssi> I built an ER16 spindle driven by a brushless outrunner
[15:56:42] <Mjolinor> i wonder if the guy loses any power dismantling the motor, I was concerned about that and didnt do it because I figured that the motor being disassembled would reduce the pwoer in the magnets, the stator acting as a keep as long as it is assembled but remove it and hte magnets go stupiod and lose a lot of magnetism
[15:56:45] <ssi> it gets hot
[15:57:00] <Mjolinor> mine isn't
[15:57:07] <Mjolinor> mine has hte motor on grommets, very lsoe
[15:57:10] <Mjolinor> lose
[15:57:14] <Mjolinor> loose
[15:57:18] <alex4nder> gotcha.
[15:57:20] <Mjolinor> christ I need to drink less wine
[15:57:32] <alex4nder> Mjolinor: hooking the motor shaft to a proper spindle?
[15:57:35] <raynerd> alex4nder - there is no coupling...the spindle on the motor is exchanged for the chuck itself.
[15:57:37] <alex4nder> i.e. not 'direct drive'
[15:57:46] <DJ9DJ> gn8
[15:57:58] <alex4nder> raynerd: how's the runout doing that?
[15:58:07] <Mjolinor> I have a hole in the end of hte spindle that the motor shaft fits in, that is rigid with a grub screw
[15:58:17] <Mjolinor> but the motor is mounted to its plate by grommets
[15:58:30] <alex4nder> right, so it isn't fighting against the spindle
[15:58:33] <raynerd> alex - not with you?
[15:58:52] <raynerd> runout doing that????
[15:59:10] <Mjolinor> the way raynerd is doing it is better but I have too small a motor to do that and I was concerned about losing magnetism if I dismantled the motor
[15:59:36] <raynerd> mjolinor..if it works on my psu
[15:59:48] <Mjolinor> :)
[15:59:55] <alex4nder> raynerd: the runout of the spindle if you're just replacing the motor's shaft.
[15:59:56] <raynerd> mjolinor: how you getting on with 12v for the motors?>
[16:00:10] <Mjolinor> well if it doesnt Ill buy it all of you for say 25% of what you paid, jsut as a favour you understand
[16:00:22] <Mjolinor> for the steppers you mean?
[16:00:27] <Mjolinor> or the spindle?
[16:00:35] <Mjolinor> both are OK anyway
[16:00:48] <raynerd> alex4nder - I`ve not made mine yet but apparently with the bearing housing supporting it, he is getting excellent results on the link I showed you above.
[16:00:56] <alex4nder> ok
[16:00:58] <raynerd> mjolinor: I was asking about the steppers
[16:01:02] <Mjolinor> but I have no microstepping, I htink if oyu bought a controller then it will have microstepping
[16:01:18] <Mjolinor> not sure you need it though, one step is plenty small enough on this thing
[16:02:19] <raynerd> I`ve had a little trouble in that I think I`m missing steps or something horrible is happening
[16:02:35] <Mjolinor> are you using emc?
[16:02:41] <Mjolinor> sorry linuxcnc
[16:02:51] <raynerd> I`m seem to be losing sync on the axis. Say I draw two concentric circles, when it draws the second they end up overlapping!
[16:02:57] <raynerd> sometimes <--- !!
[16:03:04] <raynerd> yet sometimes fine
[16:03:07] <Mjolinor> the thing is that if you used stepconf and didnt alter the timings on the first page then it will miss steps
[16:03:08] <raynerd> yes linuxcnc
[16:04:00] <raynerd> I`m using a TB6560 board...I think I changed the timings to something I read on the net somewhere but not really a clue why!
[16:04:03] <raynerd> or what to
[16:04:12] <raynerd> also haven`t done anything with the jitter
[16:04:16] <Mjolinor> for that chip you need 20000 us
[16:04:33] <Mjolinor> trying to find a screenshot of stepconf, I cant remmeber what it calls them
[16:04:50] <raynerd> give me one second, I`ll go down to the machine
[16:05:20] <Mjolinor> step time step space, direction hold, direction setup all need to be 20000
[16:05:48] <Mjolinor> and if there are still problems then make the first 2 30,000
[16:08:00] <raynerd> ahh
[16:08:12] <raynerd> step time and space are set to 2000 not 20000
[16:08:26] <raynerd> but dir hold and setup are 20000
[16:08:30] <Mjolinor> there's yer problem
[16:08:54] <raynerd> maybe this is me being a lazy arse on the manual
[16:09:00] <raynerd> but what do I do with the jitter stuff
[16:09:12] <raynerd> I did the latency test but then didn`t really know what to do with the info!!
[16:09:17] <Mjolinor> dont worry about it for now
[16:10:10] <Mjolinor> it never made a lot of sense to me and I never bothered reading about it but mine are fine adn if you are running dinosaur computers like I am I will be very shocked
[16:10:31] <Mjolinor> my pc is a 2.2 GHz p4 adn it seems fine
[16:10:31] <raynerd> just out of interest, what is your max vel and acc set to?
[16:10:38] <Mjolinor> cant rememebr
[16:10:42] <raynerd> :(
[16:10:46] <Mjolinor> spent a lot of time messing with those
[16:11:04] <Jymmm> In Soviet Arctic, the Bears photograph you! http://i44.tinypic.com/14bizx4.jpg
[16:11:10] <Jymmm> Got riot? Bring cow! http://i39.tinypic.com/fbcggk.jpg
[16:11:13] <Mjolinor> you can set them in the test apge while it is running
[16:11:17] <raynerd> I find it a little slow...would a bigger source than 12v help this. I`m currently using the 12v 5a supply that came with the TEP!
[16:12:25] <Mjolinor> it will be fine with that PSU
[16:12:33] <Mjolinor> as long as you dont connect your spindle to it :)
[16:12:52] <raynerd> lol
[16:18:28] <raynerd> OK we are off again drawing peppa pig with a pencil in the spindle :D
[16:19:02] <Mjolinor> :)
[16:19:35] <Mjolinor> i am stru8ggling to find a software path to gcode from whatever CAD package, it sa minfield
[16:20:28] <Mjolinor> finally made progress using freecad when I discovered that the etutorials for it are not applicable to the one in the ubuntu feeds, that was frustrating for a couple of days
[16:20:30] <raynerd> yes, vcarve is "apparently" very good
[16:21:52] <raynerd> I`ve made my X axis, but I think I`ve given it too much height and got over excited!
[16:22:10] <raynerd> consequently, I`m going to have a lot of overhang.
[16:22:34] <raynerd> sorry
[16:22:39] <raynerd> Z axis!!!
[16:23:59] <Mjolinor> does your lid sitll shut?
[16:25:39] <raynerd> haha!
[16:26:06] <raynerd> one sec, I`ll take a picture
[16:27:12] <Jymmm> HAHAHAHAHA http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_liop8aZnBj1qgc6jgo1_500.jpg
[16:29:13] <Mjolinor> is vcarve Windo$e software?
[16:29:42] <Mjolinor> dont have much faith in anyones software if they cant tell you the most basic information about it like what OS it runs with
[16:29:53] <Jymmm> Downloading video to cellphone http://i39.tinypic.com/28vdgk9.jpg
[16:30:43] <raynerd> yes it is
[16:30:49] <raynerd> looks at the tutorials
[16:31:01] <raynerd> I`ve seen it in action and it is v v good
[16:31:04] <Mjolinor> dont use windwos :(
[16:31:24] <raynerd> mjolinor: I think you have cured me! The missing steps seem to be sorted.
[16:31:24] <Mjolinor> well, no one uses windows really as it doesnt work, more correctly I dont have a windose machine
[16:31:31] <raynerd> haha...
[16:31:39] <Mjolinor> took me weeks to do that and work out those numbers
[16:32:44] <Mjolinor> you need to leave it running in stepconf now going back and forward over a very short distance
[16:32:54] <Mjolinor> and come back in 2 minutes, see if ti is still wehre it shoudl be
[16:34:37] <joe9> what is the 4th axis? isn't it just x, y and z axes?
[16:34:50] <joe9> alex4nder: did you use 4 stepper motors or 3 stepper motors?
[16:35:05] <joe9> alex4nder: i found a link where they were using 4, hence wanted to check.
[16:35:30] <alex4nder> 3 right now, but I speced everything so I could run a 4th
[16:35:56] <joe9> is there a mount for the 4th in the taig? or, does it need other parts?
[16:36:16] <alex4nder> it needs more parts
[16:36:27] <joe9> ok, thanks.
[16:36:48] <raynerd> mjolinor - I`ve drawn quite a detailed little drawing of peppa pig and it has worked really well
[16:37:06] <raynerd> and been trying for the last few nights with no luck so those numbers have done the trick!
[16:37:40] <Mjolinor> and you will admit to drawing it in public :o
[16:38:08] <joe9> alex4nder: good info here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgiNbBciW1MrdHNraDZ3VFFHOURvTDhLcjByN2laQ0E&hl=en_US#gid=0
[16:38:10] <Mjolinor> you could have drawn soemthing more acceptable to the techy types in here :)
[16:38:15] <joe9> http://atxhackerspace.org/wiki/CNC_Desk_mill
[16:38:16] <raynerd> I`m just uploading a clip of it...I think I look a bit of a prat because the z axis has way too much clearance. This little machine doesn`t have enough strength to utalise it.
[16:38:18] <Mjolinor> or at least lied about what it was
[16:38:41] <raynerd> it is for my daughter!!!! unless I have some wierd underlying love of peppa!
[16:38:58] <Mjolinor> not for me to question your reasons
[16:39:02] <alex4nder> joe9: the stepper motors he spec'ed are bigger than they need to be.
[16:39:03] <raynerd> haha
[16:39:06] <Mjolinor> whatever floats your boat
[16:39:11] <raynerd> ;-)
[16:39:25] <raynerd> It is all about mummy pig I`m afraid.
[16:39:27] <JT-Shop> joe9: did you sort out your drill press?
[16:39:30] <joe9> alex4nder: i read that some torque will be used by friction, oslt.
[16:39:37] <joe9> JT-Shop: could not. gave up.
[16:40:12] <alex4nder> joe9: of course.. but the taig has 20 TPI screws
[16:41:34] <raynerd> mjoliner: take a look if you will - http://youtu.be/vISjtg1zHRY
[16:42:01] <alex4nder> joe9: your steppers are going to spend most of their time spinning.
[16:42:14] <Mjolinor> ok, never going to get the lid back on that
[16:42:38] <raynerd> haha, nope!
[16:42:54] <Mjolinor> and you lost a lot of Y axis too
[16:42:57] <raynerd> even if I did what you did and mounted the motor at the back
[16:43:01] <raynerd> ahh noo...
[16:43:16] <raynerd> I`m going to shift that block back. I`m just being impatient and utalising the current holes
[16:43:34] <raynerd> utilising even
[16:43:39] <Mjolinor> ok, you took off the box of electronics behind the left end
[16:43:44] <raynerd> yep
[16:44:01] <raynerd> until I make my spindle and spindle mount, I`m not sure where centre actually is.
[16:44:10] <raynerd> but I`m considering lowering the z axis now
[16:44:10] <Mjolinor> i lef tmine on and didnt want to make it bigger, thats why I have such a small Z axis and the motor as far back as it will squeeze
[16:44:23] <Mjolinor> I wouldnt
[16:44:40] <Mjolinor> for sure I WOULD LEAVE IT AND GET A SELECTION OF ALUMINIUM BASE PLATES
[16:44:53] <raynerd> to increase the heigh?
[16:44:54] <Mjolinor> bring the table up to where it needs to be by swappoing them
[16:44:56] <raynerd> height?
[16:45:09] <Mjolinor> yup
[16:45:20] <raynerd> that is probably a better plan!
[16:45:43] <educa> If I have loaded in a config (ini/hal) for a machine with limit switches to do homing, then can I somehow test stuff out without the machine connected ? At this moment whenever I want to do anything emc says me that axes aren't homes (which is tru of course), but I cannot home them because then it looks for the limit switches to end the homing sequence. Is it possible to tell EMC that the position where the cursor is now should automatica
[16:45:44] <educa> lly be the home location of the machine ? (to test without real hardware attached)
[16:46:30] <raynerd> mjolinor: perhaps even a single base plate (because ally is expensive) with a selection of rising blocks to clap it down
[16:46:50] <Mjolinor> that will work
[16:47:24] <Mjolinor> I need to do the same thing really, the plastic is not flat enough for PCBs and the table is too low without the plastic my Z axis screws of the end and falls out :)
[16:47:41] <raynerd> I went to the ME exhibition at the trafford centre at the weekend and managed to pick up a flexible coupling which has helped my bad alignment of my z axis massively.
[16:48:05] <raynerd> bugger lol
[16:48:32] <joe9> alex4nder: how did you end up with 166oz for the motors?
[16:48:45] <alex4nder> joe9: based on research of other people's mills
[16:48:51] <joe9> oh, ok.
[16:49:03] <Mjolinor> raynerd: did you buy the Z axis off ebay?
[16:49:25] <raynerd> no I made it.
[16:49:31] <Mjolinor> is ita ballscrew?
[16:49:52] <raynerd> nope :( got quite a bit of backlash in it...so will need to read up on how to reduce it
[16:52:07] <raynerd> I guess I could replace with a ball screw.
[16:52:17] <raynerd> can`t afford one though
[16:52:23] <Mjolinor> :)
[16:52:37] <Mjolinor> wish list for christmas then
[16:52:59] <Mjolinor> there is very little backlash in mine, not enough to worry about even on PCBs
[16:53:20] <raynerd> yup, tiz going to be a big problem for me!
[16:54:47] <Mjolinor> http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/d_kwa2520/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=&_trksid=p3686
[16:54:56] <Mjolinor> should have bought your bits there, cheap and useful
[17:00:47] <raynerd> I think you showed me that link a few weeks back but unfortunately they didn`t have any single linear stages!
[17:01:02] <raynerd> unlike now where there is a nice one on their first page
[17:03:05] <joe9> alex4nder: do you remember the model number of your steppers?
[17:03:20] <joe9> I am trying to figure out the shaft size and stuff like that.
[17:03:25] <alex4nder> they're nema23
[17:04:37] <joe9> alex4nder: from here, http://www.kelinginc.net/NEMA23Motor.html , i think yours are the 6: NEMA 23 Vexta PK266-02A 6-wire stepper motor from Oriental Motors
[17:04:40] <joe9> 1.8deg (200 steps/revolution) with holding torque of 166 oz-in (bipolar)
[17:04:43] <joe9> and 127 oz-in (unipolar) $29.95
[17:04:47] <joe9> alex4nder: are they?
[17:05:05] <alex4nder> that's them.
[17:05:10] <joe9> http://www.kelinginc.net/PK266-02A.pdf spec
[17:05:45] <educa> Can I force in emc2 to start accepting MDI commands even when machine has not done homing cycle ? In other words can I make emc believe that the machine is homed at the position where it currently is ?
[17:07:24] <alex4nder> joe9: http://www.andern.org/alexander/taig.m4v <- BTW
[17:07:28] <joe9> alex4nder: did you change the spindle relay?
[17:07:42] <alex4nder> joe9: http://www.andern.org/alexander/taig_milling_wood.m4v <- watch out, it starts loud.
[17:07:49] <alex4nder> joe9: no, right now I'm just running the standard switch.
[17:08:19] <joe9> cool, thanks.
[17:12:46] <The_Ball> what's the English word/phrase for the "feet" you put under heavy machinery? The sort that has a threaded shaft and a rubber "foot"?
[17:13:16] <The_Ball> I'd call them "machine feet" but I'm not finding any... :)
[17:15:08] <joe9> alex4nder: what do you think of this? http://www.hightechsystemsllc.com/pt_plate_18.html
[17:15:29] <alex4nder> joe9: very cool, those guys never responded to me when I tried to buy one.
[17:15:54] <joe9> in the second video, what is the drill bit called? fly cutter?
[17:15:59] <joe9> the round one.
[17:16:18] <alex4nder> endmill
[17:17:16] <joe9> even better: http://www.hightechsystemsllc.com/pt_work_holding_system.html
[17:17:45] <alex4nder> it's useless if you can't actually buy it.
[17:17:57] <alex4nder> when you get competent enough, you can just build one yourself.
[17:18:54] <joe9> i agree. but, the screws on the second one seem pretty cool.
[17:19:11] <joe9> "seem" to me.. do not know how useful they actually are.
[17:19:26] <Tom_itx> are those cam locks?
[17:20:46] <alex4nder> yes.
[17:21:29] <ssi> The_Ball: I'd call them "machine feet" too :P
[17:21:56] <JT-Shop> The_Ball: leveling feet
[17:22:10] <Tom_itx> JT-Shop uses real feet for his
[17:22:23] <The_Ball> ah ok, thanks
[17:22:34] <ssi> the feet of the non-believers
[17:22:36] <JT-Shop> LOL, you have seen some of my creations...
[17:22:49] * Tom_itx nods
[17:23:06] <ssi> btw if any of you guys are interested: http://mitx.mit.edu/
[17:23:10] <JT-Shop> The_Ball: http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-leveling-mounts/=gjb5q6
[17:23:13] <ssi> I bet some of you would find it quite interesting :)
[17:23:19] <ssi> not sure if it's still open for enrollment or not
[17:23:36] <alex4nder> ssi: I enrolled.. I'm a little fearfull of the 10 hour-per-week commitment.
[17:23:46] <ssi> I'll make it work :D
[17:23:49] <ssi> I think it'll be worthwhile
[17:24:49] <Tom_itx> i saw that a while back and pasted it in another channel
[17:24:57] <Tom_itx> didn't think about this one really
[17:25:30] <ssi> you going to do it?
[17:25:37] <Tom_itx> not me
[17:25:40] <joe9> ssi, i enrolled in that course too.
[17:26:18] <JT-Shop> http://linuxcnc.org/index.php/english/component/kunena/?func=view&catid=51&id=18386
[17:27:05] <ssi> the website is pretty well done
[17:27:47] <joe9> what is tailstock? what is it used for?
[17:27:58] <joe9> http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170718022262&ssPageName=ADME:B:WNAFP:US:1123#ht_500wt_1413
[17:28:46] <ssi> supporting the free end of stock that you're holding in a vertical rotary table
[17:30:06] <joe9> oh, ok.
[17:30:19] <joe9> ssi, thanks.
[17:30:36] <joe9> alex4nder: what chuck and arbor did you buy?
[17:32:17] <alex4nder> a cheap chinese jacobs, and one of the bolt-on arbors from A2ZCNC
[17:36:55] <joe9> ok, thanks.
[17:41:04] <joe9> alex4nder: what do you think of this? http://www.ebay.com/itm/gecko-4-axis-drive-4-taig-maxnc-sherline-cnc-lathe-mill-/160645363378?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item256735b6b2
[17:42:06] <alex4nder> probably fine
[17:42:41] <jdhnc> has the advantage of single shipping charge.
[17:45:31] <jdhnc> http://www.ebay.com/itm/280616213798#ht_5675wt_1190
[17:45:56] <jdhnc> tb6560 vs. G540 :)
[17:49:45] <jdhnc> http://www.ebay.com/itm/110831789629
[17:49:46] <joe9> wow, what a difference in price..
[17:51:45] <joe9> jdhnc: thanks. i should probably see if i can buy these from amazon and not worry about shipping.
[17:51:53] <ssi> http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170718022262&ssPageName=ADME:B:WNAFP:US:1123#ht_500wt_1413
[17:51:57] <ssi> woops
[17:52:57] <jdhnc> joe9: not likely for the price.
[17:53:16] <jdhnc> g540 is $240 from keling, won't get it any cheaper that I've seen.
[17:53:29] <ssi> the 540 is a nice machine
[17:55:52] <alex4nder> yah, that's a great price.
[17:55:53] <jdhnc> and a 5i25 for it?
[17:56:14] <ssi> in my opinion, the g540 is a great box if you're gonna do software stepgen
[17:56:31] <jdhnc> why the caveat
[17:56:31] <ssi> if you're gonna do a mesa card, you are likely better off with individual drivers
[17:56:45] <ssi> the g540 has a built in breakout
[17:56:52] <ssi> you don't need the breakout if you run mesa
[17:57:17] <jdhnc> 5i25 should plug in to a g540 with a normal cable, then you have another port on the 5i25 for IO
[17:57:30] <ssi> yeah I supposed so
[17:57:41] <ssi> I haven't looked at the 5i25 at all
[17:57:48] <ssi> just the 5i20 and 7i43
[17:58:25] <jdhnc> $79, plain db25 cable, hardware stepgen to the g540 and 22? other IO's?
[18:00:56] <jdhnc> if they had 20th century web ordering, I would impulse buy stuff.
[18:01:02] <ssi> haha yeah
[19:37:07] <joe9> jdhnc: where did you see this? "$79, plain db25 cable, hardware stepgen to the g540 and 22? other IO's?"
[19:38:43] <jdhnc> sorry, looks like they are $89 - 5I25 mesanet card
[19:40:42] <joe9> jdhnc: i am confused and am wondering if you have any thoughts. I am planning on buying a taig package (with an ER 16 collect set). Do I still need another chuck and arbor? a guy on the internet mailing forums responded that he does not know what a chuck/arbor is and just uses ER 16.
[19:41:02] <joe9> jdhnc: alex4nder kinda mentioned that I need a chuck.
[19:41:29] <joe9> http://www.taigtools.com/2018special2.html is what I am planning on buying.
[19:41:33] <jdhnc> what does teh ER collet set attach to?
[19:42:11] <jdhnc> nevermind, the spindle has ER16
[19:42:33] <jdhnc> is that the CNC ready version with the motor mounts and couplers?
[19:42:39] <joe9> jdhnc: this was the response I received.
[19:42:42] <joe9> http://codepad.org/5JiURr8j
[19:42:53] <joe9> jdhnc: yes. the CNC ready version
[19:43:26] <joe9> these guys did get a chuck: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgiNbBciW1MrdHNraDZ3VFFHOURvTDhLcjByN2laQ0E&hl=en_US#gid=0
[19:43:36] <jdhnc> if all your tooling will fit in the included collets, you do not need the chuck and arbor
[19:44:27] <joe9> http://www.mcmaster.com/#2841a81 is my drill bit.
[19:44:33] <joe9> and I still need to find a milling bit.
[19:44:51] <alex4nder> I think you're overplanning this a bit.
[19:44:56] <jdhnc> indeed
[19:45:14] <joe9> that is 1/8 inch shank. will that fit in an ER-16 collets -- FREE set of ER16 collets ( 1/16, 1/8, 3/16, 1/4, 5/16, 3/8 )
[19:45:14] <alex4nder> you're going to get the machine, and need to spend a lot of time just getting to know it
[19:45:37] <jdhnc> there are tradeoffs in anything. The only guarantee is that you will be able to use some of what you buy, want to buy other stuff, and wonder wtf you bought some of it.
[19:45:49] <alex4nder> yup
[19:46:31] <joe9> alex4nder: did you buy a separate chuck/arbor in addition to the ER-16 stuff that are part of the package?
[19:46:32] <jdhnc> you would really only need the chuck for off-size drill bits and stuff. Standard shanks will fit fine in those collets. Even most smallish metric will hold even if they are not exact fits
[19:46:54] <joe9> jdhnc: oh, ok. chuck is more for the "off-size" stuff.
[19:47:06] <joe9> cool, thanks. that is what I was not sure of.
[19:47:21] <joe9> from my experience with the drill presses, you need a chuck and arbor to do anything.
[19:47:23] <jdhnc> and the chuck will have the same problems your drill press chuck does unless you spend a whole lot of cash for something precision.
[19:47:59] <jdhnc> the spindle has the ER-16 collet built in. A chuck is the worst solution to any problem. Much like slip-joint pliers or a crescent wrench.
[19:48:12] <joe9> jdhnc: gotcha. thanks a lot.
[19:48:13] <alex4nder> yup
[19:48:20] <alex4nder> I bought a chuck because sometimes I need to do something random.
[19:48:25] <alex4nder> usually for work that's not critical.
[19:48:36] <Tom_itx> jdhnc, those are such wonderful tools though
[19:48:41] <djdelorie> pbrobinson: installed emacs RPMs from koji on my f17 armhfp, works fine :-)
[19:48:45] <jdhnc> Sure, for things you don't care about :)
[19:48:53] <alex4nder> djdelorie: which board/chip?
[19:48:57] <djdelorie> trimslice
[19:49:08] <djdelorie> gah, wrong channel
[19:49:12] <alex4nder> haha
[19:49:17] <jdhnc> Tom_itx: today, I had a vendor suggest using a propane torch on a many-thousand dollar machine.
[19:49:32] <alex4nder> djdelorie: I just asked because I'm in the middle of getting PREEMPT_RT working on this iMX53 in front of me. ;)
[19:49:59] <jdhnc> alex4: cool!
[19:50:04] <djdelorie> if you're looking for fedora-arm help, try #fedora-arm
[19:50:17] <djdelorie> which is where that message was supposed to go...
[19:50:22] <alex4nder> oh, not at all
[19:50:43] <alex4nder> what I need help in right now is making the unsupported PMIC on this board work. ;)
[19:50:49] <alex4nder> and by help, I mean a driver.
[19:52:16] <alex4nder> oh, so something interesting.. the new iMX6 chips have PCIe, and so do the upcoming "cheap" reference boards.
[19:52:27] <Tom_itx> jdhnc, did you take him up on his suggestion?
[19:52:27] <alex4nder> which means we could potentially hook up a MESA card to them
[19:52:36] <alex4nder> and boot linuxcnc on them.
[19:53:16] <jdhnc> Tom_itx: not yet. I told him my experience was you got the torch out right before you did something that caused you to throw it away and buy a new one. He said "yep"
[19:53:26] <Tom_itx> ok i got one. when you machine (flycut or shell mill) an aluminum plate what methods do you use to prevent warpage?
[19:54:19] <jdhnc> cool it with kerosene
[19:54:42] <jdhnc> or something like that... I read some old machinest guys story on doing that a while back.
[19:54:42] <Tom_itx> 12" square approx needs to be 'flat'
[19:55:20] <Tom_itx> Mic-6 cast plate
[19:56:53] <cradek> I'm not sure it really warps much, but you've got to not distort it with your mounting scheme
[19:57:01] <jdhnc> it was an interesting article, but no clue where it was. I think it was mainly about hand-scraping.
[19:57:13] <cradek> how 'flat'?
[19:57:27] <Tom_itx> it's currently .002" out
[19:57:37] <Tom_itx> (not my project btw)
[19:58:45] <Tom_itx> and apparently that's not acceptable
[19:58:53] <cradek> if you need it much closer than .002, probably want to send it to someone with a blanchard grinder who knows what he's doing
[19:59:30] <Tom_itx> i didn't know if heat treat could fix something like that
[20:00:00] <Tom_itx> or just make it worse
[20:00:18] <cradek> worse
[20:00:44] <Tom_itx> kinda figured as much
[20:10:31] <joe9> i am unable to decide between buying http://www.kelinginc.net/NEMA23Motor.html - KL23H276-30-8B vs this package, http://www.ebay.com/itm/110831789629
[20:10:42] <joe9> the reason being the package appears to be too good to be true.
[20:11:00] <joe9> and, I have no experience with motors and the motor specs are similar between both.
[20:11:32] <joe9> but, not sure if the ebay package might be skimping on something important w.r.t motors.
[20:11:56] <Tom_itx> joe9, i put the keelinginc ones on mine
[20:12:12] <joe9> Tom_itx: cool, good to know. will stick with them.
[20:12:23] <Tom_itx> on a sherline
[20:12:37] <joe9> tom_itx, which psu did you use?
[20:12:46] <Tom_itx> one i had
[20:12:47] <joe9> http://www.kelinginc.net/SwitchingPowerSupply.html ?
[20:12:53] <Tom_itx> but i have parts to make another bigger one
[20:13:26] <joe9> http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=48v+7.3a&_sacat=0&_odkw=48v+power+suppy&_osacat=0&_trksid=p3286.c0.m270.l1313
[20:13:29] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/temp/cnc/psu1.jpg
[20:13:32] <joe9> is a pretty tempting list
[20:13:34] <Tom_itx> i have 3 of those now
[20:13:40] <Tom_itx> one for each axis
[20:13:49] <Tom_itx> should be plenty of power
[20:14:20] <joe9> do you know how many watts for such motors + G540?
[20:16:20] <Tom_itx> i haven't figured it
[20:16:39] <Tom_itx> i figured my supply should get me 18A @ ~45v
[20:17:19] <Gensor2> why are the 48v power supplys plentiful
[20:17:54] <Tom_itx> iirc these transformers are 32vac but it's been a while since i messed with em
[20:17:59] <Tom_itx> i gotta get back on that project
[20:22:15] <djdelorie> Gensor2: 48v is a common supply needed for telephone switching equipment
[20:23:42] <joe9> if I am using these motors, 4.2 Amps Current Per Phase ( Bipolar Parallel) KL23H276-30-8B (1/4" Dual Shaft with flat)282 oz-in, do i have to cater for a 12.6 (= 4.2 Amps * 3) PSU?
[20:24:03] <joe9> I see that the folks here catered for a 7.3 A PSU and I am not able to figure out why.
[20:24:16] <joe9> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgiNbBciW1MrdHNraDZ3VFFHOURvTDhLcjByN2laQ0E&hl=en_US#gid=0
[20:27:26] <joe9> there are options for 7.3A, 10A and 12.5 A.
[20:39:20] <jdhnc> 7.3 is fine for those.
[23:41:13] <MattyMatt2> joe9 potentially 8.4A per motor, but that'll never happen because the DC rating of the motors is much less than the power supply voltage
[23:42:30] <MattyMatt2> so divide supply volts by motor rating volts, and use that factor to divide your (8.4x3) to get you actually peak current needs
[23:45:50] <MattyMatt2> I good microstepping driver would probably only use sqrt(2)*4.2 max when holding on a half step, which is when a motor would normally have both coils fully energised