#linuxcnc | Logs for 2012-02-17

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[02:44:17] <craynerd> Hello
[02:44:47] <craynerd> does anyone know what happens at 49% through the ubuntu/linuxcnc install. My system crashes every time at this point!
[02:45:17] <craynerd> and it is the machine I need it on
[02:54:41] <archivist> try http://linux.about.com/od/ubuntu_doc/a/ubudg24t8.htm while the boot is in process
[04:06:02] <Loetmichel_> moin
[04:06:15] <Loetmichel_> s/moin/mornin'
[11:06:24] <craynerd> Hi guys, I`m totally fed up now.
[11:06:48] <archivist> you are not giving us feedback
[11:06:53] <craynerd> I`ve downloaded the older linuxcnc/ubuntu version, the new one, made a DVD a CD and bootable USB
[11:07:29] <craynerd> all night, I couldn`t install ubuntu on my machine it kept failing half way through.. disk read error
[11:07:38] <craynerd> or files don`t match expected...
[11:07:52] <craynerd> finally today got a new computer...same damn issue!
[11:08:34] <craynerd> any ideas
[11:08:54] <archivist> we need error messages
[11:09:33] <craynerd> Errno 5 Input/output error
[11:09:44] <craynerd> often due to faulty cd/dvd or drive or faulty hard disk
[11:09:54] <craynerd> I`ve burnt a CD, a DVD
[11:10:10] <craynerd> last night I even did a boot USB and got the same issue
[11:10:19] <archivist> yes but are you verifying the md5 on the said media
[11:10:31] <craynerd> yes, verified md5 of iso
[11:10:39] <craynerd> matched fine.
[11:11:27] <craynerd> I just don`t know what else to try
[11:11:35] <archivist> are you writing on a winbox and reading on other boxes or using the same one
[11:11:47] <craynerd> sorry, not clear what that means?
[11:12:08] <craynerd> winbox?
[11:13:00] <archivist> windows computer
[11:13:24] <Connor> Hey Guys, I have a question. I have a 4" Chuck that's mounted to a R8 Shank + Adapter Plate. (The Shank and adapter plate are one unit.) It has 3 socket head screws that I can remove.. but, I still can't get the chuck off the adapter plate. Looks like it might thread onto the plate.. any ideas ?
[11:13:30] <craynerd> I`m still confused. I am writing the disk on this windows XP laptop.
[11:13:32] <archivist> what part is common in all the tests
[11:13:50] <craynerd> well now... the disk is clearly not being read correctly
[11:14:01] <craynerd> I get an input/output error
[11:14:03] <Connor> I want to be able to reinstall it back on the plate too.. I just need to pull it off for a project.
[11:14:34] <craynerd> so it must be the disk image I`m burning, but the iso is fine according to md5 tests
[11:14:53] <archivist> craynerd, it is a bit common that a cd written in one box can be read there but not in others
[11:15:04] <craynerd> but why the usb?
[11:15:07] <craynerd> why the dvd?
[11:15:39] <archivist> is the reader faulty in the other machine
[11:16:28] <craynerd> no, because now I`ve tried two machines!
[11:16:39] <craynerd> I`ve tried 2 Cd drive AND 2 DVD drives!
[11:16:59] <craynerd> likewise, I`m not lying, about 5 harddrives!
[11:17:05] <craynerd> OK, 4 actually
[11:17:12] <bill20r3> are you using the same blanks for all these tries?
[11:17:21] <bill20r3> mabye you got a bum spindle of cd's
[11:17:29] <archivist> cheap tesco blanks?
[11:17:35] <craynerd> bill, I would agree, but then why the same error with the DVDs!
[11:17:39] <craynerd> and the USB!
[11:17:50] <craynerd> I just wish I could get this computer I got today to boot from usb
[11:18:03] <archivist> usb needs some incantations /me never tried
[11:19:14] <archivist> what size hard disk by the way
[11:19:20] <craynerd> 80gb
[11:19:56] <archivist> where was the Errno 5 Input/output error from
[11:24:48] <archivist> from what I can see above all cd's and dvd's were written in the same drive
[11:25:22] <archivist> where abouts are you I could post one
[11:27:41] <craynerd> uk
[11:27:46] <craynerd> manchester
[11:31:06] <archivist> did you test the md5 of the written cd/dvd
[11:31:48] <archivist> or verify it in the writer software
[11:50:54] <archivist> is he writing the ISO correctly and not as a file on a files system
[12:15:08] <IchGuckLive> Hi all around the world
[12:26:53] <jdhnc> what's stronger, acrylic, cast or extruded, polycarbonate or ?
[12:27:52] <IchGuckLive> depends on the incredeans PMMA is not as good as Makrolon PCTH
[12:29:22] <IchGuckLive> i woudt go for technical use always PC..
[12:47:39] <mrsun> hmm, can vfds take +5V digital signals or do i need to convert it to +24V?
[12:56:23] <pcw_home> Depends on the VFD. If the VFD expects 5V and you supply 24V you might convert the VFD to a non-working VFD :-)
[13:48:56] <TRW_Ags_Mx> Hi, i want to synchronized the execution of Gcode segments to with coil events of classicladder, should i use the m command m66? or is there another option?
[13:49:53] <cradek> I think m66 is your only hope
[13:50:16] <cradek> it will let you synchronize the hal/ladder events with the free-running gcode
[13:50:30] <cradek> oh wait, you want the other way
[13:50:38] <cradek> so yeah, I guess so, m66 is the input
[13:51:03] <cradek> you might also want to think about using pause/resume via halui?
[13:51:08] <cradek> depends what you're trying to do exactly.
[13:54:58] <TRW_Ags_Mx> and what about the other way,to start leadder logic after a Gcode movement? m62?
[13:55:15] <cradek> what are you trying to do exactly?
[13:56:36] <TRW_Ags_Mx> leadder logic to load material, g code for machining, and leadder logic to unload material
[13:59:24] <cpresser> you you could also use M101 or similar to trigger a userspace script
[14:00:06] <cpresser> that userspace-stuff could interact with hal via "halcdm setp load-material 1"
[14:00:45] <cradek> I have done just that, to get M codes for collet open/close etc etc
[14:00:46] <cpresser> M68 basically does the same
[14:05:16] <TRW_Ags_Mx> and what about selective selection of g code subprograms based on leadder states? could i read some flags with m66 and use if endif, ore there is another way?
[14:09:50] <cradek> yes you could do that
[14:10:21] <cradek> seems like this is an unusual enough setup that you're going to have to do your own experimentation
[14:12:58] <TRW_Ags_Mx> is for a grinding machine, im trying to substitute a fancy PLC motion capable, with Linuxcnc.
[14:14:12] <archivist> how will you calibrate our wheel wear
[14:14:17] <archivist> out
[14:15:13] <archivist> I wonder if the torch height fiddle could be useful there
[14:22:28] <TRW_Ags_Mx> right now there is an operator that uses the traditional paper sheet method, to do the setup of the wheel, and after the first dressing, the PLC counts finished pieces and using motion commands, controls the diamond for the next dressings as required, thats why i need to be able to select sub programs of the gcode, one subprogram for dressing and another for normal operation.
[14:44:03] <x__> anyone awake?
[14:45:35] <x__> kirk, you a person or bot?
[14:47:23] <Kirk_Wallace> Hello, I feel like a real person.
[14:47:46] <jdhnc> post-surgery?
[14:48:03] <x__> wasnt sure everyone seems asleep
[14:48:04] <Kirk_Wallace> ?
[14:48:15] <jdhnc> nevermind.
[14:48:34] <x__> either of you guys familiar with linuxcnc?
[14:48:36] <cradek> x__: wtf
[14:48:47] <cradek> x__: go ahead and ask your real question
[14:49:17] <cradek> there are around 84 people here, and the name of the channel is linuxcnc
[14:49:25] <x__> just starting out on this and need the login and password for the live cd
[14:49:50] <cradek> it logs in automatically with a live user
[14:49:57] <cradek> where are you seeing a login and password prompt?
[14:49:58] <x__> not mine
[14:50:07] <x__> right when i boot
[14:50:18] <jdhnc> did you install from the live cd? or it is running from the cd?
[14:50:18] <cradek> when you boot live, or after an install?
[14:50:47] <x__> well right when ubuntu would normally ask for username
[14:50:53] <cradek> when you boot live, or after an install?
[14:51:02] <x__> just running live cd not installed yet
[14:51:36] <cradek> that normally doesn't happen - seems something weird is going on.
[14:52:18] <Kirk_Wallace> Which version LiveCD?
[14:52:20] <cradek> by default ubuntu doesn't even have a login prompt; it gives you a list of accounts.
[14:52:39] <x__> yeah, i checked faq and the forum and a google search and got nothing. i just downloaded and made a live cd to install this
[14:53:29] <x__> this is the newest version of live cd just downloaded today
[14:53:32] <Thetawaves> made = burned
[14:53:33] <Thetawaves> ?
[14:53:36] <x__> yes
[14:53:45] <cradek> did you verify the checksum after your download?
[14:53:53] <x__> no
[14:54:00] <Thetawaves> i will shit bricks if this is a checksum issue
[14:54:07] <cradek> you still can do that if you still have the iso file
[14:54:32] <Kirk_Wallace> I think the very first thing that comes on the screen should be a popup that asks whether you want to run without changes or install.
[14:54:42] <cradek> (a scary percentage of iso downloads fail to give you the fully correct file)
[14:54:47] <Thetawaves> Download file wrong? YOU NO LOG IN!
[14:55:37] <x__> ok. i will redo everything and double check steps. I just wanted to check and see if there was a default login as i didnt see anything about it. thanks guys
[14:56:40] <cradek> don't go do another download until you check the sum of the one you have
[14:57:01] <cradek> if it is correct, maybe burn another cd, maybe at a slower setting
[14:57:23] <x__> yeah thats what i was thinkin too
[14:57:32] <Thetawaves> what kind of hardware are you trying to install on?
[15:03:08] <Kirk_Wallace> I don't mean to be rude, but I'll ask one more time then drop it. What is FOR_ALL_INST()? What does user_mainloop do? It doesn't seem to loop.
[15:05:43] * Thetawaves doesn't know
[15:06:10] <jdhnc> I assume it is a macro? what does the definition look like?
[15:07:55] <Kirk_Wallace> There is an example user comp here: http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/html/hal_comp.html#r1_14_6
[15:08:40] <Kirk_Wallace> I'm trying to get my user comp going here: http://wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/EMC2/sj200mbbasic/sj200mbbasic.comp
[15:13:01] <Kirk_Wallace> I'm going to cut and try FOR_ALL_INST in different ways, but I managed to fry my LinuxCNC PC's in the office, so I'm trying to load LinuxCNC to a PIII machine now. It'll take a while.
[15:14:48] <cpresser> Kirk_Wallace: you might consider doing this in pyhton. since its a userspace comp anyway
[15:14:55] <cpresser> thats way more easy to debug :)
[15:18:37] <Kirk_Wallace> I don't know anything about Python, plus the comp works fine as a realtime comp.
[15:21:25] <ries> KimK: ? happen to be here?
[15:29:56] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: IN A HEARTBEAT... http://vimeo.com/31075220
[15:48:26] <ftkalcevic> Anyone know how I get to the archives of these discussions? The link on www.linuxcnc.org is broken - still points to emc. Changing emc to linuxcnc or LinuxCNC didn't work
[15:50:36] <pfred1> ftkalcevic http://psha.org.ru/irc/%23emc/2011-05-19.html
[15:52:09] <ftkalcevic> Thanks
[15:53:24] <ftkalcevic> Sweet. And update to date too. I can see my Thanks in the archive too!
[15:54:13] <pfred1> you're welcome /me just googled his name and emc :)
[15:55:18] <pfred1> there seems to be another IRC log at http://emclog.archivist.info/2011-12-14.txt
[15:56:34] <archivist> there is another too
[15:56:46] <pfred1> archivist I don't doubt it
[15:57:17] <archivist> logger[mah], is collecting for that
[15:57:17] <logger[mah]> archivist: Log stored at http://linuxcnc.mah.priv.at/irc/%23linuxcnc/2012-02-17.html
[15:58:00] <pfred1> half of the users in this chan seem to be loggers
[15:58:33] * pfred1 usually just joins for moral support ...
[15:58:44] <pfred1> go LinuxCNC!
[16:00:47] <WalterN> heh
[17:07:01] <andypugh> pcw_home: Did you get that patch?
[17:16:17] <Thetawaves> what would it take to get emc2 running on an arm system?
[17:16:38] <andypugh> What's emc2? :-)
[17:17:54] <Thetawaves> huh
[17:18:04] <andypugh> The problem is the port of RTAI to ARM, which seems to be happening very slowly, if at all.
[17:18:16] <Thetawaves> !
[17:18:56] <andypugh> (The project isn't called EMC2 any more, lawyers got involved)
[17:19:04] <Thetawaves> somehow that doesn't sound right because there is lots of rt linux on arm
[17:19:13] <pfred1> andypugh where have you been?
[17:19:27] <andypugh> pfred1: Finland and Germany
[17:19:35] <pfred1> andypugh I thought you must have been away
[17:20:06] <pfred1> I hear it has been cold in Europe this year
[17:20:20] <andypugh> It was -37 in Finland.
[17:20:31] <pfred1> yeah you guys must have gotten our winter
[17:20:41] <pfred1> it was 67F here today
[17:21:31] <andypugh> It's warmed up a lot in the UK. 11pm and 48F outside according to my weather station.
[17:21:33] * pfred1 went to the beach
[17:22:24] <pfred1> the climate change people are going to have a field day with the data they're getting this year
[17:22:36] <pfred1> but I'm not complaining!
[17:23:35] <pfred1> 48F in the middle of the night it must be cloudy
[17:23:57] <andypugh> Well, not really, as their models suggest a steady rise in the order of 0.03 degrees per year, so 10 degree shifts rather confuse matters.
[17:24:12] <pfred1> yeah it is all just weather it changes
[17:24:34] <pfred1> today they think they can make some sense out of it all but apparently not
[17:25:16] <andypugh> There is a big difference between weather and climate. Like the difference between statistics and poker.
[17:25:54] <pfred1> I can see that you might be winning all night then lose the big hand at the end and walk away broke
[17:27:01] <pfred1> andypugh I got my Z axis all done
[17:27:28] <andypugh> I spent tonight replacing some tiny optos on a tiny PCB.
[17:27:38] <pfred1> andypugh I tried to take some pictures of it but the batteries in my camera went flat on me
[17:28:03] <pfred1> surface mount?
[17:28:05] <andypugh> I think that it is working now, and that the problem is now with the target, not the sensor.
[17:28:58] <andypugh> pfred1: Yes, surface mount, 6 pads, 5mm x 4mm http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/rotary-encoders/7160604P/
[17:29:29] <pfred1> I wish there was an enlarge link on PCBs
[17:29:45] * pfred1 thinks surface mount ruins hobby electronics
[17:30:03] <Tom_itx> no way
[17:30:31] <andypugh> Those devices are not too easy to solder with an iron, which is all I have.
[17:30:50] <andypugh> (And even harder to desolder)
[17:30:52] <pfred1> there is tricks to it like gluing the parts down ahead of time
[17:31:02] <Tom_itx> andypugh, use a clothes iron
[17:31:11] <Tom_itx> and tweezers
[17:31:23] <andypugh> I have one on each side of the PCB, back-to-back...
[17:31:29] <pfred1> if you're a real pro you use a tool we called a twizzle stick
[17:31:32] <Tom_itx> scratch that idea
[17:31:57] <pfred1> which is basically a stick of this gray wood
[17:32:32] <pfred1> twizzle sticks are pointy on one side and chiseled on the other
[17:32:38] <Tom_itx> i made a pick n place by reversing a fishtank pump and hypo needle
[17:32:51] <Tom_itx> to use with my toaster oven
[17:33:43] <andypugh> I like surface mount, and I am purely a hobbyist. It saves all that tedious hole-drilling, and resistors/caps fit nicely between stripboard strips too.
[17:34:05] <Tom_itx> agreed
[17:34:50] <jdhnc> I have to get out the magnifier for smt
[17:34:59] <Tom_itx> andypugh, you could get a hot air gun from the local hardware store for removing parts
[17:35:13] <pfred1> jdhnc at my age i have to get the magnifyer out for a 1/4 watt resistor anymore
[17:35:21] <Tom_itx> heh
[17:35:35] <jdhnc> I have to take my contacts out for either
[17:35:37] <pfred1> that started happening to me about 5 or so years ago now
[17:35:45] <Tom_itx> i don't attempt much smt without my binocular scope
[17:35:46] <jdhnc> you 45?
[17:35:50] <pfred1> I used to have microscope eyes
[17:35:53] <pfred1> 47
[17:35:59] <pfred1> not anymore
[17:36:02] <jdhnc> cool, you got 2 extgra years
[17:36:12] <andypugh> I was cursing my magnifier earlier, it's like an Anglepoise lamp thing, but without the quality, so it either raises itself or drops, rather than staying put. I was also cursing how untidy my work area is. But I can't really blame anybody else for that.
[17:36:25] <pfred1> the older i get the more i get into optics
[17:36:46] <pfred1> I like to say with them I see better than I ever did makes me feel a little better about it
[17:36:57] <Tom_itx> yeah it's annoying when i bump my magnifier ring lamp
[17:37:24] <pfred1> some folks lose all depth perception looking through magnifiers
[17:37:24] <jdhnc> does your ring lamp magnifier fog up?
[17:37:33] <Tom_itx> sometimes
[17:37:43] <Tom_itx> and the solder smoke makes it hazy
[17:37:48] <andypugh> I used to read the maker's name on the bottom of the eye-test charts. Now I can barely get half way down.
[17:37:49] <Tom_itx> it gets cleaned frequently
[17:38:02] <pfred1> andypugh we ain't like fine wine
[17:38:12] <jdhnc> better old than dead.
[17:38:22] <Thetawaves> andypugh, https://mail.rtai.org/pipermail/rtai/2010-September/023734.html
[17:38:30] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/scope/scope1.jpg
[17:38:32] <pfred1> I was over a buddy's house and I couldn't read the fine print on a bottle of beer and he was like you can't read that?
[17:38:37] <Tom_itx> there's both the ring light and the scope
[17:39:00] <jdhnc> wow, that's way too neat
[17:39:12] <jdhnc> how do you find anything?
[17:39:42] <pfred1> that is the other thing I'm appreciating more as i get older is more light
[17:40:30] <andypugh> Thetawaves: Isn't that someone finding that it won't compile?
[17:40:32] <pfred1> I wish my camera batteries weren't dead I'd take a picture of what a twizzle stick is because i can't find one on the net
[17:40:56] <pfred1> let me go get my other camera
[17:41:02] <andypugh> Thetawaves: Jon Elson sent a Beagle Board to someone (possibly Torsten) to hopefully accelerate the development, but hasn't heard anything.
[17:41:03] <Tom_itx> i think i've done that
[17:46:02] <jdhnc> I've got that flux pen!
[17:46:39] <pfred1> I don't know what these are really called we always just called them twizzle sticks http://i.imgur.com/2JW3d.jpg
[17:46:52] <jdhnc> spudger
[17:46:57] <pfred1> but I got turned onto them when I used to assemble PCBs commercially
[17:47:13] <pfred1> they help out a lot soldering
[17:47:36] <pfred1> like when you want to put your finger down to hold something but know you'll burn the tip of it off it is what you use
[17:48:24] <pfred1> and that scenario comes up a lot soldering
[17:49:28] <pfred1> a twizzle stick!
[17:51:19] <pfred1> I got that one in a box that had a weller WTCPN soldering station in it and a bunch of other junk
[17:51:43] <pfred1> but it is exactly like the ones we used at the place where I worked
[17:51:47] <andypugh> pfred1: I have extra-long fingernails for this purpose.
[17:52:18] <JT-Shop> I just have burned fingers :/
[17:52:19] <pfred1> andypugh well these sticks are a god send for doing some goof soldering jobs like making up connectors to hold down wires til they freeze
[17:52:46] <pfred1> and we'd use them to hold SMT parts in place too
[17:52:49] <andypugh> Does this work for anyone? It looks like Picasa is having problems: https://picasaweb.google.com/108164504656404380542/Gibbs#5710252780749046962
[17:53:13] <pfred1> works here
[17:53:22] <pfred1> control cabinet of some sort
[17:53:28] <JT-Shop> and aluminum extrusion full of wire
[17:53:29] <JT-Shop> s
[17:53:38] <andypugh> How odd.
[17:53:40] <JT-Shop> some ssrs
[17:53:47] <andypugh> No SSRs.
[17:53:55] <jdhnc> those are buttons
[17:54:03] <JT-Shop> what is in the bottom left corner?
[17:54:07] <pfred1> A7B?
[17:54:11] <pfred1> A&B even
[17:55:05] <andypugh> It's my control cabinet. Touchscreen with MiniITX motherboard on the back, PSUs, Arduino, 5i23, 7i64, 7i39...
[17:55:28] <pfred1> what are you controlling with all of that gear?
[17:55:38] <pfred1> your little mill lathe combo?
[17:55:39] <JT-Shop> bridge rectifiers?
[17:56:02] <pfred1> it looks like you have a network switch in there
[17:56:15] <andypugh> This is for my milling machine. It's going to be a servo machine with 3x 8i20
[17:56:19] <JT-Shop> much too neat on the insides with wires all laced up an all
[17:56:20] <pfred1> or is that a USB hub?
[17:57:05] <andypugh> There are 4 USB ports on the front panel
[17:57:11] <pfred1> andypugh is it an atom MiniITX motherboard?
[17:57:29] <jdhnc> what's the arduino for?
[17:57:29] <andypugh> Yes, D510MO
[17:57:40] <andypugh> The arduino is being a resolver converter.
[17:57:41] <pfred1> yeah I've been looking at those lately
[17:57:50] <jdhnc> it's fast enough?
[17:57:59] <andypugh> Yes, just about.
[17:58:23] <andypugh> It generates the excitation, so knows when to sample.
[18:00:51] <pfred1> boy this is the deluxe mobo isn't it has 2 DIMM sockets
[18:01:04] <pfred1> a lot I've looked at only have one
[18:02:08] <pfred1> andypugh what are you using for data storage with it?
[18:02:29] <pfred1> like does it have a real HDD or an SSD or a smart card or what?
[18:02:56] <andypugh> If you look very carefully, you can see it. There is an 8GB DOM plugged into one of the SATA ports.
[18:03:05] <pfred1> DOM?
[18:03:13] <andypugh> Disk-on-module
[18:03:17] <pfred1> like a USB thumb drive?
[18:03:36] <pfred1> pen drive whatever they're calling them anymore
[18:03:45] <andypugh> Yes, rather like a thumb drive but SATA
[18:03:53] <pfred1> ah ha
[18:04:06] <pfred1> yeah for just LinuxCNC don't need a big storage
[18:04:24] <pfred1> I think my one box uses 4.5 GB and it is like full development system all the source code etc
[18:04:31] <andypugh> I develop EMC2 on that machine. I didn't mean to, but I do.
[18:04:40] <pfred1> doesn't take much does it?
[18:05:03] <andypugh> No, and despite several compiles a night, the SSD is still fine.
[18:05:04] <pfred1> so I was thinking why buy an HDD
[18:05:31] <pfred1> 16 GB would be more than enough you're doing it with 8
[18:06:03] <pfred1> right now HDDs are crazy
[18:06:25] <pfred1> they're going to have to put them factories in Thailand up on stilts or something
[18:06:27] <JT-Shop> crazy = ?
[18:06:34] <pfred1> expensive
[18:06:45] <pfred1> all teh factories that make them went underwater
[18:06:51] <JT-Shop> ouch
[18:06:59] <JT-Shop> glad I don't need one
[18:07:09] <pfred1> yeah the king is like corrupt there or somethng and made them all get built in flood plains
[18:07:40] <pfred1> which didn't seem like such a bad idea until the rainy season started
[18:07:43] <andypugh> As far as I know the King is actually quite a decent chap.
[18:08:15] <andypugh> Or maybe I am confusing him with Yule Brinner.
[18:08:22] <pfred1> well from what i heard they're in a real spot now
[18:08:45] <pfred1> something like their lakes are 90% capacity and the rainy season is due to start up again
[18:09:06] <pfred1> so they imagine this year is going to be even worse
[18:09:31] <pfred1> newegg is selling reconditioned HDDs now a lot
[18:09:43] <pfred1> which people say are trash most don't work DOA etc.
[18:10:49] <pfred1> it seems like 2014 before anything gets sorted out to me
[18:12:07] <andypugh> This is more than enough for EMC2: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Black-MLC-Flash-DOM-Disk-Module-16GB-7PIN-SATA-SSD-/170629872507
[18:12:09] <pfred1> http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9222522/Impact_of_hard_drive_shortage_to_linger_through_2013
[18:12:42] <pfred1> yeah that is reasonable
[18:13:44] <pfred1> andypugh so you have a mesa board in your PCI slot?
[18:13:52] <andypugh> Yes
[18:14:05] <pfred1> that is the other thing I kind of hate about the miniITX boards only like 1 or 2 slots
[18:14:18] <andypugh> One is plenty.
[18:14:22] <pfred1> I guess
[18:14:38] <pfred1> just makes me feel sort of limited though just not familiar with it
[18:14:51] <pfred1> way the world is going though everything integrated
[18:14:58] <andypugh> 5i23 + 3x 7i44 + lots of cards = 1600+ lines of IO...
[18:15:20] <jdhnc> but what if you need 1800 :)
[18:15:51] <pfred1> jdhnc then you need arduino glue
[18:15:52] <andypugh> 7i43 on the parport
[18:16:23] <jdhnc> I have a 7i43 I've been saving for my mill, but I guess I'll get a 5i25 instead
[18:17:13] <andypugh> (that could be 5 x 8 x 48 = 1920 IO lines.)
[18:17:26] <pfred1> I got my Z axis all done but the mechanics of it are all so shaky I chicken out before it stops going faster
[18:17:40] <pfred1> I took it up to 1.5 IPS
[18:17:59] <andypugh> that seems slow
[18:18:00] <pfred1> it didn't sound entirely healthy to me so that was as far as I went
[18:18:08] <pfred1> 90 IPM
[18:18:27] <andypugh> Probably fast enough for all practical purposes.
[18:18:34] <pfred1> it'd go faster just sounds like it is going th shake apart to me
[18:18:59] <andypugh> Bear with me, just going to try a restart
[18:20:46] <pfred1> andypugh well for linear guides that cost me a grand total of $2 USD can't expect the world
[18:22:18] <pfred1> andypugh this is a picture of it as it stands now http://i.imgur.com/PHZCW.jpg
[18:22:27] <pfred1> the melamine machine!
[18:22:59] <andypugh> Ingenious
[18:23:08] <pfred1> this is what is inside it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHPKaHLzXes
[18:23:23] <pfred1> I upped the microstepping and got even more speed out of it
[18:23:46] <pfred1> but it is one shaky contraption
[18:23:57] <pfred1> I figured out where i went wrong
[18:24:16] <pfred1> the bearings the threaded rod are on are right on the threads and threads are at an angle to the radius
[18:24:31] <pfred1> so that makes the bearings kind of at an angle to the axis
[18:24:50] <pfred1> when I redo it I'll sleeve the threaded rod and get bearings that fit on the sleeves
[18:25:04] * pfred1 just didn't see any of that coming
[18:26:13] <pfred1> plus I can't tell for sure but I think that piece of threaded rod might have a bit of a bend in it
[18:26:27] <pfred1> it just doesn't run as true as I'd like to see it
[18:27:55] <pfred1> andypugh this is the rest of my hair brained plan http://i.imgur.com/lysGP.jpg
[18:28:32] <pfred1> that box will ride inside twin Y rails that will rid in twin X rails
[18:28:52] * pfred1 wanted to make a different router than the rest
[18:28:56] <andypugh> angle-iron tracks?
[18:29:15] <pfred1> heh not this time around no they'll be more like engineered wood beams
[18:29:30] <pfred1> I since came up with another idea let me up that picture
[18:29:45] <andypugh> By having the two X (as drawn) motors at opposite ends you are sacrificing travel
[18:30:11] <pfred1> yeah I'm probably going to end up putting them both on the same side I was really having a fit of balance that day
[18:30:53] <andypugh> And belt-coupling and single motors would be cheaper and possibly better.
[18:31:33] <andypugh> Though two smaller motors might give you usefully more speed.
[18:31:44] <andypugh> Hi mhaberler
[18:31:47] <pfred1> andypugh actually if you think about it weaker steppers and drivers are a lot cheaper than stronger ones
[18:31:53] <mhaberler> hi!
[18:32:02] <pfred1> each of my motor driver combos cost me $25 a pop
[18:32:45] <pfred1> real motor drivers are like $150 a piece then real motors I haven't priced them lately but they're not cheap either
[18:32:57] <pfred1> like in the 435 oz/in range
[18:33:17] <pfred1> so I can get 2 200 oz/in for a fraction of the price
[18:33:29] <andypugh> mhaberler: There is a chap on the forum hoping to configure what M1 turns off. He thinks (quite reasonably) that you ought to be able to make the spindle stop and the coolant stop during an M1 pause. I have tried to figure out the code, but got lost in a maze of classes, all alike.
[18:34:05] <pfred1> andypugh this is a side view sketch of one of my axis linear slides http://i.imgur.com/8Y11S.jpg
[18:34:23] <pfred1> plywood and ripped 2x4s is the material plan now
[18:35:04] <pfred1> I had a much more complicated plan I abandoned
[18:35:05] <andypugh> I think you need more rollers.
[18:35:12] <jdhnc> and better wood
[18:35:18] <mhaberler> hm, I had another request for making m2 and friends remappable, which they currently arent
[18:35:22] <mhaberler> I'll read up
[18:35:43] <pfred1> jdhnc if it doesn't work out think of all the room for improvement I'll have
[18:36:00] <pfred1> but seriously plywood is way better than MDF
[18:36:10] <pfred1> and lots make machines out of it
[18:36:10] <jdhnc> I meant the 2x4
[18:36:34] <pfred1> depends what grade i get if I can get spruce
[18:37:00] <jdhnc> I think MDF retains shape better than plywood
[18:37:14] <andypugh> pfred1: With that design there is nothing to persuade the two parts to remain parallel. One roller can slide down, and the other up.
[18:37:35] <pfred1> andypugh even if the mirror is on the other dise?
[18:37:37] <pfred1> side
[18:37:41] <mhaberler> hm, seems to be a common request
[18:37:50] <mhaberler> I'll look into it
[18:37:58] <andypugh> He is offering to pay...
[18:38:01] <pfred1> andypugh that is only half of it
[18:38:50] <pfred1> I figured as it is it should pinch into place but I'll see you may be right not like I've tried it out yet
[18:40:49] <andypugh> Have you considered simple Melamine box-ways. I can see that working surprisingly well.
[18:41:14] <pfred1> I have to admit my melamine tube works better than I thought it would
[18:41:23] <pfred1> stuff is slippery
[18:41:33] <andypugh> And will be very stiff
[18:41:35] <pfred1> I was going to strip the ways with it
[18:41:52] <pfred1> see I'll find my older plan
[18:42:51] <andypugh> mhaberler: Hmm, Seb might just have jumped to the top of your priority queue
[18:43:03] <mhaberler> where?
[18:43:11] <andypugh> dev list
[18:43:35] <pfred1> andypugh I scrapped this because there are just too many parts http://i.imgur.com/dJKvP.jpg
[18:43:55] <pfred1> but i was going to make those dark triangles out of melamine
[18:45:11] <pfred1> there are parts of that design I really like but it isn't practical to actually make
[18:45:30] <andypugh> The vast majority of machine tools use sliding bearings, not rollers. I reckon a melamine box-way router could be quite effective. You might need to spend a long time shimming.
[18:45:52] <pfred1> like dovetails
[18:46:24] <pfred1> I guess my design is sort of like backwards dovetails
[18:46:35] <pfred1> I never thought about it that way before
[18:47:13] <andypugh> My miller has twin V-slides on the Z. That makes no sense at all to me. How are they meant to work?
[18:47:46] <pfred1> I'm kind of hoping to get halfway decent rapids on my X and Y axises but as of now I don't know what i can realistically expect with my leads
[18:48:22] <pfred1> having seen the stuff go in order to get any speed out of it at all it has to be revolving fairly quickly
[18:48:52] <pfred1> my whole machine I'm only shooting for 2x3 feet
[18:49:21] <andypugh> https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/m3UWBaZAOXAoIMPsIuRcN9MTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink shows it. How can they reasonably expect all 4 sides to simultaneously bear? It's just not possible.
[18:49:56] <pfred1> andypugh but they're there just in case ;)
[18:50:12] <andypugh> pfred1: To get high speed with steppers you will need unusually large-pitch screws.
[18:50:26] <pfred1> yeah or really fast motors
[18:50:46] <pfred1> I'm running at 24V so I don't have any power at high speed
[18:51:31] <pfred1> but for now it is what I am doing I know I'll have to boost it up in the future
[18:52:28] <pfred1> people say they get 150 IPM out os 1/2x10 TPI leads I don't know how they manage it but I've heard the claim made
[18:53:00] <pfred1> I have to admit I'm pretty pleased with 90 as of now
[18:54:53] <cstop> hypothetical question. Might just be a g-code thing, but is there a routine for lathe applications that coordinated spindle rotation and X position. Rather like a relieving tool, or an ornamental lathe.
[18:55:05] <pfred1> the ultimate goal of my machine is to do designs in woodwork so I don't mand if it isn't too accurate
[18:57:14] <cstop> pfred1 accuracy is relative. If you are working to within .010, and it gets too fuzzy, make your work bigger! ;-) .010 is nothing on a two meter diameter ;-)
[18:57:26] <pfred1> cstop you mean like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcey94oh6bY
[18:58:31] <pfred1> I love eggbot!
[18:59:59] <cstop> well, if the control can move the pen "radially", a worm screw could redirect the motion
[19:03:40] <pfred1> I bet andypugh would like to have one of these http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kddPuLSaOjQ
[19:05:00] <pfred1> oh now it is making me seasick
[19:06:47] <andypugh> cstop: There is no way to do it in G-code that I know of, but it can be done with a bit of HAL trickery, for example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4q8gCpeY1A
[19:07:30] <andypugh> cstop: I thought that it would be possible with G38, but that can only move in one direction after each index.
[19:09:46] <cstop> pfred1 Is there any useful application for such an impeller made from aluminum? Andy, I'm looking at that reference now
[19:11:49] <cstop> ahh, yes, now I recall seeing just that video, I must have paid no attention to the Trickeryy
[19:12:40] <andypugh> cstop: It might well be for a big turbo, aluminium impeller, steel/nimonic/titanium turbine is a common combination.
[19:14:11] <pfred1> cstop my ultra high speed air die grinder has an aluminum whatever you call it in it
[19:14:18] <andypugh> cstop: I wrote a HAL component that calculates an offset based on an angle from an encoder and a lookup table.
[19:14:25] <pfred1> thing must spin at 80,000 RPM
[19:15:12] <cstop> Forces follow what power of the size? MV^2 and all that
[19:15:27] <pfred1> yeah it is pretty dinky
[19:16:07] <The_Ball> wow this looks promising a, looks like something proper build on opencascade, had anybody here played with it? http://sourceforge.net/apps/mediawiki/free-cad/index.php?title=Main_Page
[19:16:28] <cstop> andy, so if one were wanting to do ornamental work, the enries would require a bit of programming.
[19:19:20] <andypugh> cstop: Ah, you want to do ornamental turning?
[19:21:13] <andypugh> Have you seen http://www.deweygarrett.com/ ? He uses EMC2
[19:21:15] <The_Ball> pfred1, ref youtube vid, great comment "how do I get married to this machine"
[19:22:35] <andypugh> The_Ball: Ref your comment on the other channel about free-CAD, yes, there is a lot of crossover between that project and LinuxCNC (and HeeksCAD)
[19:23:14] <pfred1> The_Ball I saw that it was funny
[19:23:33] <The_Ball> andypugh, I remeber when cascade went open source a while back and I hoped for great things, this looks like it
[19:23:49] <pfred1> CAD on Linux?
[19:24:41] <pfred1> I swear I hate all CAD programs though their UIs are so distracting I can't actually get any real design done in any of them I'm better off sketching on a napkin
[19:25:16] <The_Ball> pfred1, I use gcam for "sketching on a napkin" type stuff
[19:25:20] <cstop> I have my hands full dealing with solid works, No need for a "kit of parts" ;-) but I celebrate the efforts of all.
[19:25:23] <andypugh> I like Inventor, but I did spend 8 hours a day using it for a couple of years.
[19:25:54] <jdhnc> I installed inventor, couldn't even make a cube
[19:26:10] <pfred1> andypugh I've been pushing pencils since I was about 6 so ah I've a bit to overcome
[19:26:35] <andypugh> Create a sketch, draw a square, pop up a level, extrude it
[19:26:57] <pfred1> like my old teacher always used to say, vector the points!
[19:27:15] <andypugh> I like to find where parts are inside each other in CAD-space rather than in the metal
[19:27:22] <pfred1> he never actually explained how points are vectored I think he just liked hearing himself say that phrase
[19:28:24] <andypugh> 3D cad lets me goof for free.
[19:28:35] <pfred1> I have two power erasors
[19:28:53] <pfred1> and a whole box of inserts
[19:29:41] <andypugh> And I have hopes for free-CAD. I actually have an Inventor license from work, an Alibre License I paid for, but I want something Mac-native so I am not trying to do 3D-Cad in a Virtual Machine, because that is painful.
[19:29:42] * pfred1 has a bit of a fetish with stationary supplies
[19:30:06] <pfred1> I got into a bit of a spat with the developer of that they've something against imperial units
[19:30:12] * JT-Shop hands pfred1 his 3 phase eraser
[19:30:17] <jdhnc> I installed the live cd in a VM the other day, what do I have to do to make it a sim- version?
[19:30:17] <pfred1> they're dead set against implementing them
[19:30:36] <pfred1> so it is a bit worthless for me
[19:31:02] <andypugh> pfred1: Does it matter what the units are if you are not mixing them?
[19:31:46] <andypugh> A length of "1" can be inches, mm or furlongs
[19:31:53] <pfred1> andypugh I know I'm not supposed to because it is only a graphical representation etc. but I actually calculate some dimensions right off my drawings and it works here for me :)
[19:32:51] <andypugh> Print at 2540% ?
[19:34:10] <pfred1> really I don't see what the big draw is with metric
[19:34:21] <cstop> If I were to write a book or make a film about the "uniqueness of "America", I would title the work 25.4
[19:34:49] <jdhnc> c'mon, it's not unique. Lybia does also
[19:34:53] <pfred1> they're dragigng us more and more into the metric system here
[19:35:41] <jdhnc> our newest design is all in metric (imperial)
[19:35:45] <pfred1> I think mostly for military compatibility as if we need those allies
[19:36:27] <jdhnc> but, if you ask anyone, the tube OD is still .404
[19:36:48] <pfred1> the 8 soldiers Germany sends to a theatre
[19:39:11] <pfred1> when you have 43 commissioned Los Angeles class nuclear attack subs you don't need any allies!
[19:41:22] <cstop> strength through $$$ er fire power.
[19:41:51] <pfred1> cstop each one of those subs has more explosive potential than all the bombs used in every war in the entire 20th century
[19:42:35] <pfred1> just one would alter life on this planet as everyone knows it in about 20 minutes
[19:43:12] <jdhnc> you can't nuke everyone who deserves it.
[19:43:23] <pfred1> jdhnc we can 7 times over
[19:43:55] <pfred1> just in case the first 6 times we hit them wasn't enough
[19:44:31] <pfred1> now when they say a bomb is so many megaton is it imperial or metric?
[19:44:44] <cstop> I reluctantly "volunteered" to become collateral damage when they issued me a birth certificate.
[19:44:59] <jdhnc> 43 subs?
[19:45:07] <cstop> metric actually
[19:45:09] <pfred1> yeah in active service
[19:45:21] <pfred1> we had 69 but retired a few
[19:46:00] <pfred1> I went to where they make them once
[19:46:16] <cstop> someone should but a plexi view bubble on one of the retired ones and sell amusement rides
[19:46:40] <pfred1> like how those japanese boaters got amused when the one porpised on top of them?
[19:47:12] <pfred1> that happened back in the 80s by Hawaii IIRC
[19:47:58] <pfred1> was pretty embarassing an incident
[19:48:40] <andypugh> pfred1: Metric is a bit more rational, there are fewer fudge-factors in calculations. Power is exactly torque x angular velocity, for example.
[19:48:43] <pfred1> the reason we have so many is it is one of he industries they have to keep going because if it ever gets shut down that's it no more
[19:49:15] <pfred1> so we build them whether we need them or not I mean we don't need anymore but we still buld them just to keep in practice
[19:49:22] <andypugh> Imperial is rather confused between mass and weight
[19:49:38] <jdhnc> in theory
[19:49:55] <pfred1> andypugh but this is the counter argument sometimes you should have to think hard about some things
[19:50:13] <cstop> andy the math is easier, but the increments are "uncomfortable". 10X is often too much
[19:50:37] <andypugh> So, you either have to keep pounds as mass and invent a force unit, or use pounds as force and invent a mass unit (slugs)
[19:50:41] <pfred1> yeah the imperial system didn't just come about it was refined over centuries to be scaled for human use
[19:50:43] <jdhnc> just use 3/16 of a cm
[19:51:29] <jdhnc> F is a good scale, the rest I could live without
[19:51:31] <andypugh> pfred1: Yes, by us. But we saw sense.
[19:51:40] <pfred1> you caved in
[19:51:50] <pfred1> you should have stood by the USA!
[19:52:00] <andypugh> cstop: Actually, it isn't 10x, it is always 1000x
[19:52:12] <pfred1> you know no matter what those europeans ever do we'll come over there and set them straight for you
[19:52:16] <cstop> I deal with nanometers or micrometers. both "distances" are too small to perceive, so it makes no matter
[19:52:35] <pfred1> we did it twice already
[19:52:43] <andypugh> I have machined to 100nm thickness :-)
[19:52:54] <cstop> Andy this is a "machining" oriented chat
[19:53:14] <cstop> .1 mm or .01 mm BIG difference!
[19:53:14] <jdhnc> 100 newtonmeters?
[19:53:15] <pfred1> that is another thing that drives me nuts
[19:53:40] <pfred1> amateur machinists looking for 0.0001 accuracy with cutting machines
[19:53:54] <pfred1> yeah it can be done kind of sort of but is it practical?
[19:54:39] <pfred1> if yes is the right answer why are precision grinding machines made?
[19:54:39] <cstop> andy How did you evaluate your work? Sptectroscopy?
[19:55:42] <cstop> I have a nice flat lapping machine in the lab, works so well. The interferometyer confirms ;-)
[19:55:48] <pfred1> when I worked in a tool and die shop we didn't realistically expect to lathe or mill anything closer than 0.003 any closer we'd grind it
[19:56:14] <cstop> sorry about the extra keys, I'm just trying out these new fingers
[19:56:33] <andypugh> pfred1: Actually, not just the amateurs. I know of only very few applications where things 1000mm apart need to be 1000mm +/- 0.1mm. This means that almost nobody needs the super-accurate ballscrews that they insist on. Even the worst screw will take off exactly 0.1 mm if you turn it 0.1 revs and it is 1mm pitch.
[19:57:11] <andypugh> cstop: Electron microscopy :-)
[19:57:52] <cstop> depth of field?
[19:58:05] <pfred1> andypugh like a buddy of mine said once once i get past my 6" calipers a tape measure is good enough :)
[19:58:21] <pfred1> he made nice machines too
[19:58:49] <cstop> I helped build some of the first scanning tunneling microscopes (atomic force) back in my days at the University of California Santa Barbara.
[19:59:36] <pfred1> cstop whenever someone says first I always think of this http://www.k6may.com/Images/transistor.jpg
[20:00:07] <pfred1> though there are other firsts that look even worse
[20:00:24] <andypugh> cstop: http://www.springerlink.com/content/v700132v11u87606/
[20:00:27] <cstop> My day today was spent with LASER illumination of a Twyman Green Interferometer, the reference is 1/50th wave at 633 nanometers. We can all do the math
[20:01:30] <pfred1> it is because of that I'm not too worried how my first machine comes out I figure it just gives me more room for improvement
[20:02:52] <cstop> Andy Have you any good suggestions for suppressing "speckle" when delivering laser light through a fiber?
[20:04:46] <andypugh> cstop: I have almost no experience in the actual application of optical fibres, bit I think the "speckle" is unavoidable. You get it even with a bare laser.
[20:06:11] <pfred1> you have to train the sharks not to go deep in the water
[20:07:33] <pfred1> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bh7bYNAHXxw
[20:08:29] <andypugh> Ooh! I am glad I looked up my papers, last time I checked (about 10 years ago) I had never once been cited. It seems that now I have, most recently last year.
[20:09:34] * pfred1 got out of serving on jury duty
[20:09:40] <pfred1> score!
[20:10:55] <pfred1> andypugh do you guys have to do that over there?
[20:11:18] <andypugh> Yes. I think we invented it.
[20:11:29] <pfred1> gawd it is a fate worse than death!
[20:11:33] <andypugh> (Magna Carta)
[20:11:55] <pfred1> I did it once when I was really young so boring
[20:12:08] <andypugh> I have never been called up, but if I was, I would try to do it because I think it is an important idea
[20:12:19] <pfred1> that's what yo usay now
[20:12:40] <pfred1> face it if they're in court it can't be good and they have to pay
[20:12:41] <andypugh> It helps that I would still get paid
[20:12:55] <cstop> I sat on a homicide....whoa! Took a while
[20:13:16] <pfred1> I was grand jury we just heard the prosecutors
[20:13:19] <andypugh> I can imagine that a 3-year fraud case might get a bit wearing.
[20:13:22] <pfred1> indite!
[20:13:43] <pfred1> it was a lesson in human stupidity I swear
[20:14:10] <pfred1> really really dumb people seem to get in trouble with the law
[20:14:47] <andypugh> Yes, well, not just them. I had a lot of bother getting myself a US visa recently.
[20:15:20] <pfred1> why you're like a convicted mad bomber or something?
[20:15:23] <andypugh> (Because I have been arrested in the US)
[20:15:32] <pfred1> wouldn't surprise me if you were
[20:15:37] <pfred1> for what?
[20:16:27] <andypugh> "Disorderly Conduct"
[20:16:45] <cstop> you rebel!
[20:16:52] <pfred1> you must have just been at the wrong place at the wrong time
[20:17:18] <pfred1> because the USA is all about Disorderly Conduct
[20:18:00] <pfred1> we kind of celebrate it here
[20:18:05] <andypugh> The thing is, you don't even have to have been convicted. For example, if you have ever been arrested for a drug crime, even by accident, or if acquitted, you can never get a visa to visit the US.
[20:18:50] <cstop> a case of guilty even after proven innocent
[20:18:52] <pfred1> yeah our drug laws defy logic and reason but I figure they're the way they are so the CIA can fund illegal wars and stuff
[20:19:20] <pfred1> can't float everything by the voters you know?
[20:19:46] <pfred1> evne stuff that needs to be done
[20:19:53] <Jymmm> andypugh: have they denied you yet?
[20:20:01] <andypugh> The problem with Democracy is that some people's opinions actually are worthless.
[20:20:12] <pfred1> some?
[20:20:35] <pfred1> the funniest thing here is voter turn out
[20:20:39] <pfred1> or lack of it
[20:21:03] <pfred1> I bet you this next presidential election less than 50% will go to the polls
[20:21:22] <pfred1> I probably won't
[20:21:36] <cstop> there is no democracy, the laws are made by "lawyers" read $$$
[20:22:02] <pfred1> what my government does has so little impact on my life why should I waste my time?
[20:23:52] <pfred1> andypugh then there are illegals that get busted a dozen times and al lthey get is a free ride back home
[20:24:08] <pfred1> they skip the whole visa process entirely
[20:24:37] <andypugh> Jymmm: No, I have my Visa. In fact they gave me a 10 year business/tourist one. I think they were of the opinion that a "senior engineer" of a US company with a completely clean slate for the last 25 years really ought not to be forced to produce documents that the US court system has lost/destroyed any time he wants to visit.
[20:25:43] <Jymmm> andypugh: so you told them you were arrested though?
[20:25:44] <andypugh> pfred1: "No matter who you vote for, the Government gets in"
[20:25:56] <pfred1> we're so tight with the UK I don't even see why any of them need visas to visit the US most of you speak English right?
[20:26:16] <Jymmm> pfred1: Brit Speak
[20:26:27] <pfred1> Jymmm well it beats spanish
[20:26:40] <pfred1> which I've 0 chance of understanding
[20:26:43] <Jymmm> pfred1: Nah, the Spanish were here before we were.
[20:26:54] <Tom_itx> yeah they make no effort to learn the native language
[20:26:56] <pfred1> not where I am
[20:27:08] <pfred1> I think the dutch got where I am first
[20:27:14] <Tom_itx> where would that be?
[20:27:18] <pfred1> then the indians slaughtered them all
[20:27:21] <andypugh> Jymmm: Yes, that was my error. I assumed they kept records and that lying would be bad. I should have lied, nobody can find the records, not even my state attorney friend. (though his letter stating that might have helped :-)
[20:27:25] <pfred1> delaware
[20:27:55] <Tom_itx> you're not ammune to the import problem up there?
[20:27:57] <Jymmm> andypugh: Well, now you are on the up and up and they can't surprise you down the line.
[20:28:00] <Tom_itx> immune
[20:28:20] <pfred1> andypugh in the USA when dealing with official matters playing dumb is always the best policy
[20:28:34] <pfred1> they can never prove you're smart enough to know better
[20:28:56] <Tom_itx> no speakie engish
[20:29:07] <pfred1> it is amazing how much latitude you'll gain by simply acting stupid
[20:29:07] <Jymmm> andypugh: Now that you got your visa, I'll be sure to talk to someone at SF ICE and make sure you get deported =)
[20:29:37] <andypugh> Well, hmm, I do have letters in front of my name that hint I might not be totally stupid.
[20:29:42] <pfred1> like once at inspection the guy told my aunt her tires were bald she said no they're goodyears so he passed her
[20:30:09] <pfred1> he couldn't be bothered explaining to her what bald tires were
[20:30:11] <Jymmm> andypugh: I'm gnna tell them you wanna blow up something, which thurps any letters you might have =)
[20:30:12] <Tom_itx> andypugh you need letters on both sides
[20:30:28] <andypugh> Jymmm: Deportation in SF would be great, I get to not clean the boat :-)
[20:30:58] <andypugh> Tom_itx: Dr...BscPhdARCS?
[20:31:08] <Tom_itx> :)
[20:31:14] <Jymmm> andypugh: Oh, I'll wait till your done cleaning =)
[20:31:18] <pfred1> Jymmm I'll admit what the USA did to get California was wrong
[20:31:32] <pfred1> I say we give it back to the Mexicans
[20:31:40] <Tom_itx> that was texas
[20:31:52] <pfred1> nah we messed them up in california too
[20:32:04] <Jymmm> pfred1: Calif, Texas, the lousiana pirchase, etc.
[20:32:06] <pfred1> texas isn't as in debt so I say we hang onto it for a bit
[20:32:15] <andypugh> Ever been to Mexico? I really liked it there.
[20:32:16] <Tom_itx> pfred1, they seem to be getting both back with little effort
[20:32:34] <pfred1> ah we purchased the louisanna purchase fair and square
[20:32:41] <Tom_itx> andypugh, the caribbean side
[20:32:47] <Jymmm> pfred1: What $20 ?
[20:32:58] <pfred1> Jymmm hey low price gets it
[20:33:03] <Jymmm> =)
[20:33:11] <Jymmm> silly frecnh
[20:33:16] <pfred1> I think by the square mile Alaska was cheaper
[20:33:25] <Tom_itx> no doubt
[20:33:29] <Jymmm> and the oil
[20:33:31] <Tom_itx> worth more too
[20:33:40] <Tom_itx> and forestry
[20:33:41] <andypugh> I think Mexico is the only properly-foreign place I have thought I could live in happily.
[20:33:47] <pfred1> but the USA took california by force
[20:34:03] <Jymmm> andypugh: Not any more. Unles you want to die.
[20:34:18] <Tom_itx> i found out a burger costs $30 in Grand Caymen
[20:35:06] <Tom_itx> and fuel is $8/gal
[20:35:08] <pfred1> Tom_itx if you live in Alaska yo uget a check from the state every year for resources
[20:35:24] <Tom_itx> you must endure alot for it though
[20:35:51] <pfred1> still thats crazy
[20:35:59] <pfred1> what other state pays you to live in it?
[20:36:05] <andypugh> I felt less in danger of dying in Mexico than in some parts of the US I visited. I felt about the same risk of being robbed, but a much lower risk of being shot afterwards.
[20:36:23] <pfred1> andypugh oh i could take you some places in the USA that are hell on Earth
[20:36:26] <Tom_itx> andypugh how long ago?
[20:36:35] <Jymmm> andypugh: Not any more (in the last 2yrs)
[20:36:48] <Tom_itx> i've a neighbor from there and when he visits he swears he won't leave the hotel
[20:36:49] <pfred1> yeah mexico is kind of going through a civil war
[20:37:03] <Jymmm> s/civil/drug cartel/
[20:37:14] <Tom_itx> yeah the cartel is winning
[20:37:25] <pfred1> well yeah they're buying their guns off us
[20:37:49] <Jymmm> andypugh: Mexico is kidnapping tourist is the big thing right now.
[20:37:51] <pfred1> if our government isn't out and out giving htem to them
[20:38:22] <andypugh> US was 1986 (NY, NJ, NC, FL and back), Mexico (Quintana Roo) was 2001
[20:38:38] <Tom_itx> andypugh things are much different now
[20:39:02] <andypugh> Shame, it was poor but nice then,
[20:39:07] <pfred1> yeah the mexican thing seems to have come to a head in the past 4 years or so
[20:39:20] <pfred1> well it is poorer now because of china
[20:39:32] <pfred1> cheap mexican labor isn't so cheap compared to china
[20:39:51] <pfred1> so you either run drugs or run away
[20:40:37] <andypugh> I am going to China in less than a week. That will be odd, I won't even be able to read signs. At least in Greece I can work out what signs say, if not what they mean.
[20:40:42] <pfred1> there is even a TV show here now called border wars
[20:41:33] <Tom_itx> yeah
[20:41:35] <pfred1> andypugh in the USA we turn every tradegy into a reality TV show
[20:41:56] <andypugh> I am likely to be in a reality TV show
[20:42:11] <pfred1> oh yeah?
[20:42:29] <pfred1> brits in their sheds?
[20:42:45] <andypugh> http://northonetv.com/?p=highlights&toppage=clipper&sect=1
[20:43:07] <pfred1> you sail?
[20:43:21] <andypugh> a bit
[20:43:30] <pfred1> I've a friend into that
[20:44:14] <andypugh> I am sailing from china to california next week. (eek! it is suddenly very imminent!)
[20:44:20] <pfred1> not competitive though just commercial
[20:44:35] <pfred1> like he delivers boats
[20:44:49] <pfred1> still the stories he tells
[20:44:51] <andypugh> A lot of people do.
[20:45:07] <pfred1> yeah the rich idiots who buy them don't seem to know how to operate them
[20:45:13] <pfred1> that is where my buddy Dave somes in
[20:45:20] <andypugh> Rich folk own boats, other people sail them 90% of the time
[20:45:24] <pfred1> yup
[20:45:32] <pfred1> exactly what he does
[20:45:43] <pfred1> he sails the boats to where the rich folks wants them
[20:46:14] <pfred1> then they sit on it in dock
[20:46:36] <andypugh> The boat I will be sailing belongs to Robin Knox Johnston though. I think he knows how to sail
[20:47:43] <pfred1> dave has hiw own boat but he diesn't even have it in the water everyone always wants him to sail their boats sort of like a free inspection
[20:48:07] <pfred1> he'll tell them what is wrong with it what htey need etc.
[20:48:23] <andypugh> That was a disingenuous statement: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_Knox-Johnston
[20:49:01] <pfred1> I'm a land lubber
[20:49:23] <pfred1> IU been out in dave's boat it's not for me
[20:50:01] <andypugh> I don't understand why most of the sailors I know do it.
[20:50:22] <pfred1> yeah of God meant us to travel the oceans we'd have been born with gills
[20:50:46] <Tom_itx> why did he make them so big then?
[20:51:22] <pfred1> Tom_itx to keep us from going everywhere
[20:51:45] <pfred1> it worked for a long time too
[20:51:57] <andypugh> Well, for me travelling the oceans is the point, because the sea takes you anywhere on earth. But most sailors sail out of, and back in to, the same port. They aren't going anywhere.
[20:51:58] <Tom_itx> curiosity got the best of us though
[20:52:36] <pfred1> andypugh the sea ain't going to take you to Death Valley
[20:52:44] <Tom_itx> it's awesome what you see out there too
[20:53:35] <pfred1> andypugh I go to these lakes in Maine to boat that is enough open water for me
[20:53:46] <andypugh> pfred1: I can walk to Death Valley from somewhere a boat can take me, though. I can't walk there without a boat.
[20:54:15] <clytle374> So I was hanging out at my buddies shop this afternoon, when the plastic holding the insulation to the ceiling tore from being full of water from an unknown leak in the roof.
[20:54:18] <Jymmm> andypugh: Ok Noah
[20:54:18] <Tom_itx> andypugh, not sure you would want to though
[20:54:38] <Jymmm> pfred1: Well, Mono Lake might
[20:54:40] <clytle374> Water dumped right into the 3 phase generator and blew it up
[20:54:42] <pfred1> clytle374 you need a leaker
[20:54:45] <clytle374> What's the chances of that
[20:54:46] <andypugh> But yes, the Pacific is probably bigger than I can currently imagine.
[20:55:03] <clytle374> pfred1, what is a leaker?
[20:55:08] <pfred1> clytle374 when I roofed we had one guy he was the leaker
[20:55:24] <pfred1> they send the leaker out to places that have leaks and he figures out where they are
[20:55:25] <andypugh> pfred1: Big bladder?
[20:55:46] <Jymmm> andypugh: pfred1 http://jetlev.com/
[20:55:52] <clytle374> well a 3 year old building shouldn't need a leaker
[20:55:57] <pfred1> clytle374 if he can't figure it out what he'd do is use a fluorescent dye
[20:56:37] <pfred1> roofing supply places probably carry it
[20:56:50] <pfred1> or they could tell you where you can get it
[20:57:05] <andypugh> I was out on the balcony of the hotel in Cologne on thursday. It has a lead roof, and I am sure that every single balcony has lead that has peeled up to make a leak.
[20:57:22] <pfred1> I never did a lead roof
[20:57:34] <pfred1> don't think I'dwant to sounds heavy to carry up a ladder
[20:57:34] <Jymmm> http://vimeo.com/31008456
[20:57:59] <pfred1> when we did rubber roofs the roll weighs 600 pounds
[20:58:20] <pfred1> one roll
[20:58:46] <clytle374> The leak is the least of his problem right now, 4 cncs are sitting waiting for 3 phase power
[20:58:52] <pfred1> andypugh how you think we got the roll on the roof?
[20:59:49] <andypugh> Big lead roof (and a bigger glass one) http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=50.935381,6.961911&hl=en&ll=50.935331,6.961904&spn=0.00131,0.002435&sll=50.935278,6.961742&sspn=0.000655,0.001218&t=h&z=19
[21:00:02] <pfred1> ha ha I got a funny story about a glass roof
[21:00:14] <pfred1> a buddy of mine Larry he knew a guy that sold glass roofs
[21:00:27] <pfred1> the guy was like these are safe so he walks out on it and falls through
[21:00:33] <pfred1> OK it isn't too funny because he died
[21:00:56] <andypugh> It;s a really odd hotel. That middle atrium is 6 storeys, very wide and largely empty.
[21:00:56] <pfred1> still kinda funny though isn't it?
[21:00:58] <cstop> sailors prayer: "Oh Lord, Your ocean is so big, and I an so small, Please Lord, Don't fuck me now"
[21:01:27] <pfred1> the crap a salesman will do to try to sell you their product huh?
[21:01:47] <Tom_itx> what else have they got goin for em?
[21:02:05] <pfred1> I bet they didn't get the sale
[21:02:40] <Tom_itx> a good marketing department can make anything look good
[21:02:50] <pfred1> not a dead body
[21:03:00] <cstop> malorganite!
[21:03:03] <andypugh> "Look how easily the blood mops up"
[21:03:32] <pfred1> every job i ever been on where someone died it always meant lost time
[21:04:17] <pfred1> usually the company responsible changing their name too
[21:04:38] <andypugh> Luckily I have never had that, and only one hobby-death (caving(
[21:04:39] <clytle374> yeah, they don't let you just shove the corps into a foundation anymore
[21:05:13] <pfred1> clytle374 I've worked with demolition outfits out of NYC and the stories they tell
[21:05:29] <pfred1> just flip 'em in the truck!
[21:05:37] <pfred1> one less check we have to cut that week
[21:06:13] <Tom_itx> they removed the bodies from the hoover dam because it would weaken it otherwise
[21:06:20] <pfred1> the downside of illegal workers I guess
[21:06:39] <andypugh> Most of the things I have worked with, you would need to be really patient and cooperative for them to kill you.
[21:07:32] <pfred1> andypugh one job i was on a guy was leaning into his trunk getitng something and a 4x4 fell off the side of the building caught him right at the base of the neck
[21:07:44] <pfred1> ne never even saw it coming
[21:08:24] <andypugh> Though, having said that, the current prototype cars I am driving don't fill me with confidence.
[21:08:43] <andypugh> 4x4 timber or 4x4 truck?
[21:09:03] <pfred1> 4x4 timber
[21:09:06] <clytle374> would it matter where a 4x4 truck hit him?
[21:09:17] <pfred1> was holding up a concrete deck about 4 stories over him
[21:09:24] <pfred1> it shrank and came loose
[21:09:38] <pfred1> just kind of fell over and he was in the wrong place
[21:09:53] <andypugh> There was a guy took an 8' plank into a paternoster lift when I was a student. That was fatal.
[21:09:59] <pfred1> everyone said one nail would have saved him
[21:11:31] <cstop> If you are born to drown, have no fear of fire!
[21:11:43] <pfred1> yeah anymore I'm a big believer in fate
[21:12:08] <pfred1> I've done so much stupid stuff that should have killed me and never a scratch from any of it
[21:12:37] <cstop> my guardian angles still work overtime
[21:13:35] <clytle374> I've learned 3 lessons this year. never trust a swtich, the guy driving the forklift, or the terrified cow stuck in a ditch.
[21:13:37] <cstop> angels?
[21:14:13] <pfred1> could be flim flammers playing angles
[21:14:22] <cstop> do cows go through life drunk? I mean all that fermentation in all those stomaches?
[21:14:37] <pfred1> cows aren't too bright
[21:14:38] <clytle374> wrong kind of fermentation
[21:14:45] <clytle374> cows are not dumb
[21:15:09] <clytle374> they are slow to make any decision other than fight or flight
[21:15:14] <cstop> depends on which one
[21:15:31] <andypugh> They are very curious though. If you are ever doing anything in a cow field, they will all come over to look. and they do have horribly heavy feet,
[21:15:56] <clytle374> like all other species, they come in above and below average
[21:16:04] <cstop> they do have warm teats, I'll give 'em that
[21:16:09] <pfred1> andypugh if all you did was stand in a field and chew grass all day you'd go check out whatever too
[21:16:30] <andypugh> I think they might be a bit cleverer than horses.
[21:17:05] <clytle374> I agree
[21:17:22] <pfred1> I got some cows around the corner fro mme and whenever I drive by they do stare
[21:17:53] <cstop> horses are "place" oriented. if something bad happens , they remembver that the "place is bad, not the cause or effect.
[21:18:22] <pfred1> my neighbor next door used to have a horse i think it died though
[21:18:52] <cstop> All horses die! eventually
[21:19:26] <pfred1> really what i think happened is he was riding in my back yard and hit a hole back there I know was there in the tall grass and broke its leg
[21:19:27] <andypugh> I do recall riding my enduro bike in Wales, we stopped in a field full of cows, with their half-grown calves, There was one rather well built little bullock with little nubs of horns. He kept goring a pile of earth and them looking at us meaningfully as if to say "You see this pile of earth, that could be you, that could, if you come near these heifers"
[21:19:45] <pfred1> but I don't really talk to my neighbor so I can only speculate
[21:20:42] <pfred1> andypugh that was what I sas going to tell you earlier if you like to be disorderly we go to this GP motocross race and it is very disorderly there
[21:20:54] <pfred1> like extremely
[21:21:06] <clytle374> One of our cows breaks out when she's in heat to see the neighbour's bull, then comes home to be milked
[21:21:16] <andypugh> Well, I don't normally like to be disorderly, that;s the odd thing.
[21:21:40] <pfred1> andypugh they build the outhouses there explosion proof
[21:21:53] <pfred1> it gets that out of hand
[21:22:16] <clytle374> That can't be good if you're in it
[21:22:21] <pfred1> funny thing is they all get wrecked anyways
[21:22:25] <andypugh> The story is long and involved, but includes pretty girls and two physicists.
[21:22:32] <pfred1> clytle374 rule #1 is never go into one
[21:23:02] <pfred1> clytle374 I saw a guy once at 6 in the morning jump on top of one and break it out from under him with a sledgehammer
[21:23:26] <pfred1> they're made out of concrete casket casings with plywood doors stood on end
[21:23:43] <clytle374> girls and physicist?
[21:23:53] <pfred1> and the crowd still manages to destroy them al levery year
[21:24:02] <andypugh> clytle374: An unusual and volatile mixture
[21:24:43] <clytle374> Updating Precise to see if that fixes my odd error
[21:24:52] <pfred1> andypugh one group of people bring VW engine blocks to the event to burn
[21:25:05] <pfred1> you ever see a VW engine block burn?
[21:25:07] <clytle374> I love a good case fire
[21:25:22] <pfred1> you can see it from about 30 miles away
[21:25:38] <pfred1> it is pretty awesome
[21:25:41] <clytle374> You could see it from 100 if you had line of sight
[21:25:51] <pfred1> probably it is like ET is landing
[21:25:52] <andypugh> OK: Me and a friend (physics students) were working on a girls summer camp in upstate NY. Now, as physicists we had hardly ever seen girls, so when 3 of then asked for a lift to a concert in the car we had bought, we said "yes"
[21:26:42] <pfred1> andypugh that is where they hold this race upstate NY
[21:26:50] <pfred1> unadilla NY
[21:27:19] <andypugh> So, then it turns out that it is actually a 300 mile round trip, and after work.
[21:27:32] <pfred1> upstate NY is pretty big
[21:27:46] <andypugh> But the girls were very pretty.
[21:28:00] <andypugh> And the band was "The Monkeys"
[21:28:11] <andypugh> But the girls were very pretty
[21:28:14] <pfred1> how long ago was this?
[21:28:23] <andypugh> 1986
[21:28:39] <pfred1> not the monkees was it?
[21:28:49] <pfred1> like of TV show fame?
[21:28:57] <andypugh> Even then the Monkees were old has-beens
[21:29:04] <andypugh> Yes, them.
[21:29:11] <pfred1> well I didn't think a lot of them were talking to each other
[21:29:24] <pfred1> lot of bad blood there you know?
[21:29:34] <clytle374> So you think you're going to get lucky,, and?
[21:30:17] <pfred1> I had a friend who was a huge monkees fan
[21:30:56] <andypugh> Anyway, so, 3 hours or so after leaving work, we arrived at the Saratoga Concert Thingy, to find that the band had decided that no tickets would be sold after the concert had started.
[21:31:16] <pfred1> ought oh
[21:31:41] <andypugh> So, we were left outside the venue. Two physicists and three pretty girls.
[21:33:40] <pfred1> at the height of their popularity the monkees were bigger than the beatles
[21:34:02] <pfred1> then they released a record
[21:34:07] <andypugh> The girls found a gap in the fence. (I am not sure if this was to escape the physicists, or to see the band), slipped through, smiled sweetly at a hugely fat security guard with an enormous torch, and traipsed into the arena.
[21:34:54] <clytle374> Time to go home
[21:35:47] <clytle374> Or did you have a better plan?
[21:36:11] <andypugh> So, we couldn't get into the concert, and the girls couldn't get home (150 miles away) without us.
[21:36:25] <andypugh> What were we to do?
[21:37:04] <pfred1> andypugh bribe the guard with 10 Subway sandwiches?
[21:37:26] <andypugh> Nowadays, with mobile phones, it would be easy "We are going home, come out, or walk"
[21:37:53] <andypugh> But the girls were _very_ pretty. :-)
[21:38:09] <clytle374> So you're waiting, or sneaking in
[21:38:12] <pfred1> a lot of them are at that age
[21:39:06] <andypugh> I will point out that these were camp counsellors, not the kids at the camp. They were 17/18 to our 18/19
[21:40:03] <andypugh> Actually, Melinda was 16, I think, but that was legal at home, if not there..
[21:40:31] <pfred1> everything is legal until you've completely run out of appeals
[21:42:18] <andypugh> I am not sure what US law or convention says, but 16 + 18 doesn't strike me as actually criminal. Especially if they are on the other side of a wire mesh fence. 150 miles from home.
[21:42:35] <clytle374> Depends on the state in the US.
[21:42:52] <pfred1> yeah some places you could get married evne if she was your cousin
[21:43:41] <pfred1> didn't bill hailey marry his 13 year cousin?
[21:44:22] <clytle374> Through the fence?
[21:44:26] <pfred1> messed up his career but it was legal
[21:45:09] <andypugh> So, we mooched, and found another gap in the fence. Which I squeezed through. And found an equally fat guard, with an even bigger torch. Who insisted that I stop while he waddled over to me. In retrospect, He would never have caught me. But I was a well brought up lad, who respected authority. So I stopped. And he put me in handcuffs, and took me to a proper policeman, who arrested me.
[21:45:30] <pfred1> doh!
[21:45:36] <pfred1> yes you should have ran
[21:46:12] <pfred1> you brits i swear you're as bad as canadians
[21:46:23] <andypugh> And then, 28 years later, that made getting a US visa really quite a chore.
[21:46:45] <pfred1> no red blooded american boy of 18 would have stood there
[21:46:46] <clytle374> dang, I hope the US don't kick me out :)
[21:47:08] <pfred1> we'd have been like skip you phat boyie and took off
[21:47:49] <pfred1> andypugh know what i did for fun when I was growing up?
[21:48:03] <andypugh> Like, $100 for a certificate from the UK police saying they have never heard of me, and a US attorney's letter saying that the original court records no longer exist,
[21:48:05] <pfred1> we used to get real cops to chase us in parks
[21:48:52] <clytle374> andypugh, sorry about that, our government has lost its mind
[21:49:13] <pfred1> yeah don't blame us americans our government just does its own thing anymore none of us understand it
[21:49:22] <pfred1> it is completely out of control
[21:50:06] <pfred1> like someone said earlier doesn't matter who you vote for a politician always wins
[21:50:49] <Tom_itx> there used to be statesmen
[21:51:01] <clytle374> We are really fortunate that our government tries to keep dangerous people like Andy out, while God only knows how many thousands of sleeper we have in the USA from an open border
[21:51:40] <pfred1> yeah like the shoe bomber
[21:52:47] <andypugh> That's one good thing about being fairly old and on the internet, you meet folks. That US attorney is actually a friend from a motorbike group. He might be the (ex) director of the WI Supreme Court, but I know him as a Ducati and Bimota enthusiast :-)
[21:52:49] <pfred1> it is still funny they lost all records
[21:53:14] <andypugh> They destroy them after 25 years
[21:53:20] <pfred1> only the US government could lose documents in the Information Age
[21:54:20] <clytle374> Think maybe someday our military will establish a democracy in the USA?
[21:54:22] <pfred1> here 25 years is a life sentance
[21:54:31] <andypugh> Statute of Limitations. Except that doesn't apply to Visa applications. Heck, being found innocent doesn't apply to visa applicattions.
[21:55:13] <pfred1> andypugh be happy you aren't a US citizen
[21:55:22] <clytle374> Should have just carried a backpack full of cocaine, or nerve gas, over our southren border
[21:55:39] <pfred1> do yo uknow at the present rate of incarceration by the year 2050 every man woman and child in the USA will be behind bars?
[21:55:57] <cstop> security!
[21:56:14] <jdhnc> if santorum gets elected, every man-woman will be behind bars.
[21:56:18] <clytle374> They will parole you to work in some camps by then ;)
[21:56:23] <pfred1> well I should say every US citizen al lthe illegals will still be wandering around I'm sure
[21:56:29] <jdhnc> that was funnier in my head.
[21:57:06] <andypugh> pfred1: Extrapolation is risky: http://xkcd.com/1007/
[21:57:08] <cstop> trans gendered thoughts running rampant will get you behind bars in a hurry!
[21:57:19] <clytle374> I wish we would get back to the United States of America, less federal insanity
[21:58:01] <Tom_itx> keep wishing
[21:58:11] <pfred1> don't worry Obama has a lock on the next election
[21:58:14] <cstop> States rights my friend, If it is not explicitly the provence of the feds, then HANDS OFF, says so in the constitution!
[21:58:36] <pfred1> it is as if the repubs don't evne want to win I mean are these candidates really the best they can do?
[21:58:37] <Tom_itx> some states are taking things back into their own hands
[21:58:48] <jdhnc> people and bureaucracy never give up power by choice
[21:58:59] <pfred1> I could probably scare up winos at the bus terminal that make more sense
[21:59:01] <Tom_itx> too many federal mandates are causing them to go broke
[21:59:04] <clytle374> Funny how the rest of the constitution makes sense when viewed like that.
[21:59:19] <cstop> I'm pulling out first chance I get, Like "French Canada" Oh Oh, I don't speak Quebecquios
[21:59:28] <andypugh> In the UK, we don't have a constitution, we just guess. it actually seems to work OK.
[21:59:55] <pfred1> andypugh my government scares me
[22:00:11] <clytle374> The UK isn't as large to more local control, like our states are supposed to be
[22:00:16] <clytle374> so more local
[22:00:24] <pfred1> seems they're capable of almost anything but the right thing at times
[22:01:18] <cstop> it comes down to the interests of the wealthy and powerful really
[22:01:37] <jdhnc> that's actually a good thing
[22:01:42] <jdhnc> if you are wealthy and powerful
[22:01:49] <andypugh> pfred1: If you are in the US, then your government scares me too. We are largely on the same side, too. I really can see why the "other side" are so scared and hateing
[22:02:17] <clytle374> BlowBack
[22:02:42] <pfred1> andypugh they've nothing to fear as my government is so inept they bungle everything they attempt
[22:03:23] <clytle374> yeah, except our missiles hit their targets quite well.
[22:03:36] <pfred1> even if it is just an aspirin factory
[22:04:09] <clytle374> intelligence is a different subject
[22:04:28] <pfred1> how did we manage to sink so much money into afghanistan and have absolutley nothing to show for it?
[22:04:33] <andypugh> I (personally) am worried by fundametalist muslims, then nearly as much by fundamentalist christians. Fundemantalist atheists are nearly last, just ahead of the buddhists,
[22:04:35] <pfred1> I mean nothing
[22:04:44] <pfred1> it is no better today than the day we went there
[22:05:08] <jdhnc> I'm a non-practicing atheist.
[22:05:36] <pfred1> if the Universe is as big as tey say it is I say there is room for everything
[22:05:53] <andypugh> Hmmm, actually, I am going to put Zionists right at the top of "loonies who might mess up my world" and the Japanese are a little scary too.
[22:05:55] <pfred1> someplace there has to be a berarded guy in the clouds
[22:06:20] <pfred1> now whether he gives a rats ass about us is another matter entirely
[22:08:44] <pfred1> I want to know why my country sides with israel so much
[22:08:51] <pfred1> like what do we owen them?
[22:08:55] <pfred1> owe even
[22:09:19] <pfred1> I mena just once take the other side to break up the monotony
[22:11:13] <clytle374> What I don't understand if how many Christians believe that our government 's lying, cheating, and underhanded deals in the world are justified.. My bible doesn't read liek that
[22:11:41] <pfred1> well everyone is naturally going to try to strike the best deals for themselves that is just human nature
[22:11:43] <clytle374> And they aren't going to retaliate? really? Come on now
[22:11:44] <cstop> $$$ Isreal...Jews...money...it's a circle
[22:11:52] <andypugh> With apologies to anyone who wants an apology, it does seem bizarre that any entity with the power to create a million million galaxies of a million stars each, would care what one example of a thousand million members of a thousand million species did on one day of seven of a 50th of the time his planet takes to orbit that star that he created,
[22:11:58] <pfred1> well all they do is take our money
[22:12:40] <pfred1> a couple years ago isreal said they don't need our aid anymore, but send it anyway so we did
[22:13:29] <cstop> \Andy, all this "stuff" is only a back drop, theater props for the real play going on inside each of us. Don;t get caught in the props!
[22:13:32] <clytle374> andypugh, No offence taken. much of the bible is how to live.. and rest is needed
[22:13:51] <pfred1> andypugh I heard this one guy who made a pretty good case for our entire universe being a simulation
[22:14:24] <pfred1> the guy was no dope he had it all figured out
[22:14:57] <cstop> perception is the reality. Make yours gratitude. You won't be sorry!
[22:15:03] <clytle374> pfred1, it's all theory until you can escalate privileges.
[22:15:29] <pfred1> clytle374 I live in the woods so everytime a tree falls I'm like yup they do make sound
[22:16:09] <andypugh> Some of the bible is just weird, though. Like it is virtuous in the eyes of god to offer your virgin daughters to a baying crowd of Sodomites to save some Angels (who can probably look after themselves) from a bit of gang-buggery,
[22:16:15] <pfred1> I'm convinced they make it whether I'm around to hear it or not too
[22:16:15] <cstop> so, At last we find out wwho "nobody to hear it" is! Glad it's you,
[22:16:33] <pfred1> yup I'm just a nobody living in the woods
[22:17:03] <cstop> sound is only your interpretation of the even. Some would call it a "disruption in the force"
[22:17:09] <pfred1> they drop with fair regularity
[22:17:47] <cstop> and the "sound"? densification and rarification of the surrounding air? Not much to that...
[22:18:06] <pfred1> usually it is a crack followed by a thump
[22:18:07] <andypugh> pfred1: It's a common argument. I think it goes back to the ancient greeks, though at that time it was phrased as that it is impossible to prove that you are not just a part of someone else's dream.
[22:18:39] <clytle374> andypugh, most of the old testament is beyond me.
[22:18:44] <cstop> I am dreaming that I am awake. waiting to wake up
[22:18:51] <pfred1> andypugh well this guys theory hinged on the way everything can be quantified on and off like it was computer data he was very convincing
[22:19:34] <pfred1> clytle374 they had really good hash back then is all I can figure
[22:19:50] <cstop> I strongly feel that my experience of reality is like a rug that roles out before me, and rolls up as I pass. Gone....
[22:21:22] <clytle374> andypugh, wondering about what you stated, can you pinpoint that a little better?
[22:22:44] <cstop> And at the center of each galaxy is a black hole, the doorway to another dimension.
[22:23:01] <andypugh> pfred1: it's an old argument. Really old. Rene Descarte with "I think therefore I am" was part of the same argument. If you think you are real, then you are, even if you are part of a simulation. Who can say that that simulatione we are in is not one of a milion other simulations running in a simulation? it's a fundamentally null question, it can never be proved true or false, and even if it could, it would change nothi
[22:23:01] <andypugh> our level of experience.
[22:23:33] <pfred1> I also heard that because our Universe has black holes it makes this a false dimension because it invalidates some law of the conservation of energy
[22:23:46] <cstop> A Yaqui Way of Knowing
[22:24:15] <pfred1> if nothing can escape a black hole then where does it all go?
[22:24:44] <cstop> to the other side!
[22:25:11] <pfred1> well then that invalidates this and that side
[22:25:20] <cstop> a speck of dust on the shin of some megalioth
[22:25:56] <cstop> Duality is not reality
[22:26:14] <cstop> Lila
[22:26:20] <cstop> Play
[22:26:39] <pfred1> now everything is based on dark energy and dark matter neither of which we've actually seen
[22:26:43] <cstop> "Angels fly, because they take themselves lightly"
[22:27:26] <cstop> Nah, everything, is based on human acceptance. The rest is theory
[22:27:32] <pfred1> I'm kind of hoping we figure out how to tap into this dark energy though i mean the way gas prices are going I'll take any kind of energy I can afford!
[22:27:51] <cstop> take a solar flare for instance
[22:28:03] <clytle374> Here is a good example of why voting doesn't matter in the US http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtDJ6Ay4QMw
[22:28:15] <cstop> just one...enough for all our energy needs just about forever
[22:28:22] <pfred1> is it true a solar panel will never generate the amount of energy it took to create?
[22:29:32] <cstop> true!, at least if "never" has an amortization schedule
[22:29:47] <pfred1> well I don't think they last forever
[22:29:57] <pfred1> don'tthey like oxidize eventually or something?
[22:30:05] <cstop> Same with Gasahol
[22:30:26] <cstop> Si is the most abundant of elements.
[22:30:32] <pfred1> yeah I heard it takes more fossil fuels to make gasahol than we get out of the stuff
[22:30:56] <pfred1> I thought hydrogen was the most abundent?
[22:30:57] <cstop> At the expense of real food production
[22:31:28] <pfred1> well the USA wastes over 90% of its food produciton anyways
[22:31:40] <cstop> Well, Elemament on our planet
[22:31:40] <pfred1> its crazy
[22:31:59] <pfred1> there is a lot of hydrogen tied up in water isn't there?
[22:32:04] <cstop> Spell much?" me
[22:32:41] <pfred1> not that we can economically get to it but it is still there
[22:32:52] <cstop> The oceans only cover the surface, how big is our planet?
[22:33:14] <pfred1> I hear the core of the planet is still molten because of nuclear reactions
[22:33:22] <pfred1> like it should have solidified years ago
[22:33:40] <cstop> I suppose there is a bunch of iron supporting the magnetic feilds (which flop from time to time)
[22:33:44] <pfred1> good thing it hasn't though for us
[22:34:06] <pfred1> amazing all the things that had to work in order for us to be alive
[22:34:18] <cstop> Yes
[22:34:23] <cstop> amaxing
[22:34:27] <cstop> accident?
[22:34:35] <cstop> I don't think so
[22:34:39] <pfred1> like if we didn't have a big Moon like we have higher life probably would have never evolved on this planet
[22:35:09] <pfred1> who would have thunk we're here because of the Moon though?
[22:35:22] <cstop> and we are only suited to live in such a tiny band of environments. Like goldilocks
[22:35:51] <pfred1> yeah I am totally against manned space missions
[22:35:58] <pfred1> I don't think humans have any future in space
[22:35:58] <andypugh> This probably isn't the time and place to discuss the strong and weak anthropic principles, let alone the various versions of the many-worlds hypothesis.
[22:36:05] <cstop> means nothing to me
[22:36:29] <pfred1> andypugh that parallel dimension stuff is creepy
[22:36:43] <pfred1> but it is the only way to make sense of UFOs
[22:36:50] <cstop> Andy, will you proclam a suitable time and place? I shall like to be there!
[22:37:01] <pfred1> think about an advanced race actually traveling interstellar distances
[22:37:24] <pfred1> it'd be cheaper to actually build a planet in your system than it wold be to travel to a different one
[22:37:50] <clytle374> And men will never fly ;)
[22:37:50] <pfred1> I mean smart money would stay home right?
[22:38:02] <pfred1> men don't planes fly
[22:38:31] <pfred1> men drop like rocks
[22:38:44] <cstop> The PROOF of intelligent extraterrastial life is the fact that they have NOT tried to contact us!
[22:39:20] <pfred1> well the other side of the coin is when was the last time you walked over an ant hill and tried to talk to any of the bugs and if you did did you get any interesting replies?
[22:39:28] <cstop> Anything can fly...once!
[22:40:12] <kb8wmc> interesting subjects or your conversations fellas
[22:40:13] <pfred1> anything that could span interstellar distances would be as above us as we are over bugs
[22:40:57] <andypugh> Well, here's a thought. In 2005 MIT organised a Time Traveller convention, and no Time travellers turned up. So, either it is impossible, or we will/have destroyed ourselves before we will/did invent time travel.
[22:41:15] <pfred1> in 1976 we launched the Voyager missions which hold several human records today and they're still not out of the solar system yet
[22:41:50] <kb8wmc> I am curious if any have researched what is termed "fossil fuels"?
[22:42:27] <pfred1> this is what i don't get at the end of WWII the germans were making their fuel out of coal how come we don't do that today?
[22:43:01] <Tom_itx> one of our mines has been on fire for decades
[22:43:03] <clytle374> Precise is going to be downloading for several more hours and I'm not waiting, good night all
[22:43:08] <pfred1> one?
[22:43:09] <andypugh> kb8wmc: In what sense?
[22:43:26] <pfred1> Tom_itx there are coal fires going on that put out more CO2 than the whole human race
[22:43:38] <Tom_itx> yup
[22:43:45] <andypugh> pfred1: Err, no.
[22:43:47] <Tom_itx> they tried to flood them once
[22:43:57] <pfred1> andypugh seriously
[22:44:08] <pfred1> there is a bad one in china and another one in africa
[22:44:13] <andypugh> And I mean, not, not at all
[22:44:27] <Tom_itx> i was referring to the us
[22:44:44] <pfred1> Tom_itx we got them too but they're not the biggest
[22:44:56] <kb8wmc> I find it difficult to believe that if my old cow "Bessy" dies out in the pasture, if she will turn into oil and deposit herself 30,000+ feet beneath the surface of the earth...
[22:44:58] <pfred1> a whole town collapsed because of one once
[22:45:00] <kb8wmc> some of the geologists have held for almost a hundred years now, that oil is abiotic
[22:45:15] <kb8wmc> the russians have several research papers on the subject
[22:45:22] <cstop> Indonesian forest burn under the surface
[22:45:35] <pfred1> oil came from oceans dying
[22:46:28] <pfred1> I remember the ground fire that used to burn between newark and Hoboken
[22:46:41] <andypugh> Yes there are big fires. But they are equivalent to single mines. Every ton of coal from every working mine gets burned within weeks. And there are thousands of mines. A natural mine fire is limited by air supply, too.
[22:46:51] <pfred1> man at night in the summer you'd see these glowing cracks in the ground
[22:46:51] <kb8wmc> could be pfred1, but some research shows that oil is churned up every day from the supposed molten core acting against the underside of the mantles as I understand it
[22:47:12] <kb8wmc> and it deposits the released hydrocarbons in any fissures that it can find
[22:47:25] <pfred1> kb8wmc well when that wel llet go in the gulf it made me wonder just how rare the stuff really was
[22:47:40] <kb8wmc> agreed
[22:47:53] <cstop> Well, times were different when "oil" was being made. Global warming was in full swing, and there was an odd mix of gasses that really helped plants along. Go figure...It's not like that now. I want it back the way it was! (crys if the traditionalist)
[22:47:59] <pfred1> and i was shocked at how badly the whole recovery was bungled
[22:48:14] <pfred1> I figured humans were a bit better than we apparently are
[22:48:24] <kb8wmc> as I understand it, there is no where on earth where oil cannot be found, getting it out is another story
[22:48:53] <pfred1> this frakking stuff is kind of crazy
[22:48:53] <andypugh> There is no evidence for signifiacant abiotic oil and the amino acid content of the oil that is minedindicates that it came from living things.
[22:49:16] <pfred1> people's sinks catching on fire and what not
[22:49:33] <kb8wmc> are you sure it was actually bungled pfred1 ? it could just possibly been a successfully carried out operation
[22:49:49] <cstop> Enron!
[22:49:57] <pfred1> kb8wmc you think they did it on purpose?
[22:50:38] <andypugh> Not that abiotic oil is impossible, there is methane everywhere you look in the universe, and it is likely polymerise in all sorts of places. But the stuff we burn is old, dead, stuff, ]
[22:51:00] <pfred1> seabed methane ice is pretty freaky stuff too
[22:51:15] <kb8wmc> I don't know...but I know that by simple flip of a coin anyone would be about 50% correct in making a decision, not 100% always wrong....
[22:51:39] <pfred1> evidence suggests the seas have coughed up lots of it at times and the whole planet has gone off like a flash bulb as a result
[22:51:46] <cstop> Nah to much trouble. But huge balls or "tar wash up from the Santa Barbara channel, sub ocean leaks of petrolium
[22:52:07] <kb8wmc> maybe it is how we perceive right or wrong, some people would think others are crazy for holding on to positions they believe to be right
[22:52:12] <pfred1> I seen beach tar balls I always figured it was leaking out of tankers
[22:52:26] * pfred1 grew up in New jersey
[22:53:24] <cstop> We would call PFed1 a "joey" ;-)
[22:54:16] <kb8wmc> andypugh: there was a man, who passed away several years ago now, he was a young officer pilot during WWII and was tasked with flying around geologists all over North Africa looking for oil sites
[22:54:37] <pfred1> I remember whne the Elmhurst tanks went up and that pipeline in Edison too I could see both of thsoe from my house
[22:54:49] <andypugh> About twice the volume of the BP leak seeps naturally into the Gulf each year. But it takes all year, and it's not localised, and it's different. The plus side is that this means that the Gulf of Mexico is full of oil-eating bugs, so hopefully it will get dealt with.
[22:55:11] <pfred1> andypugh yeah apparently lots of stuff in the ocean likes oil
[22:55:45] <kb8wmc> his name was Col. Fletcher Prouty, there is still a website dedicated to him last time I looked, where he covers what the geologists informed him of, and how long that knowledge had been known, even some of the Russian documents on the subject
[22:55:50] <cstop> So, just what does happen to all the rubber that wears from the tires of passing automobiles? Bugs?!
[22:56:39] <cstop> Heck more and more our own foods are made of "petro chemicals. sick egh!
[22:57:16] <pfred1> if i missed my exit on the turnpike this is what i saw http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_B8FZWhBd6x0/TC-dzg4eysI/AAAAAAAABW4/TE3whWOSoIA/s1600/Bayway-Refinery-lg.jpg
[22:57:28] <pfred1> pictures just don't do the place justice I must say
[22:57:36] <andypugh> pfred1: I do suspect that there was a political incentive to try to use the Gulf spill to break BP, I don't think that US interests are at all happy that an Anglo-Dutch oil company like BP is so big in the US oil extraction business,
[22:58:07] <pfred1> andypugh well wasn't BP trying to fix it?
[22:58:21] <cstop> Is BP the "biggest" revenue in the world? I think it might be...so I heard
[22:58:46] <pfred1> andypugh all I'm saying is it was shocking it took so long to get it under control
[22:59:14] <pfred1> granted I'm sure it wasn't easy but I'd think a big cmpany would be prepared for that kind of thing
[22:59:59] <cstop> I fitted out a heli-copter for the Sultan of Brunei. BP money I am sure
[23:00:16] <pfred1> andypugh also I am convinced the USA does kind of want to hold onto it's reserves until the end
[23:00:34] <andypugh> BP are no 4. 1 is ExxonMobil, 2 is Walmart, 3 is Shell. Walmart, however, are not primary industry.
[23:00:36] <kb8wmc> no matter on origin, I still have difficulty believing that when ol' Bessy dies and trees fall, and plants and birds and everything else die, they just don't lay there and decay, and don't deposit themselves as oil miles beneath the surface
[23:01:12] <pfred1> when oil was created it happened in unique circumstances
[23:01:24] <kb8wmc> oh
[23:01:29] <cstop> NO OIL is being made in this era! Fact! embrace the change
[23:01:33] <andypugh> kb8wmc: They do need to get buried good and deep first.
[23:01:48] <cstop> and lots of 'em
[23:01:53] <pfred1> well at least oil we cna tap
[23:02:26] <pfred1> I thnk the commercials in the 70s of dinosaurs dying reuined a lot of people's perceptions of reality
[23:02:42] <pfred1> oil ain't dino poo
[23:02:50] <cstop> Imagine a tropical jungle ...gone crazy!
[23:02:55] <kb8wmc> pfred1: then would that preclude being classified as fossil fuels then
[23:03:08] <pfred1> they were very tiny fossils
[23:03:35] <kb8wmc> lol
[23:03:40] <cstop> an ocean choked with plankton
[23:03:44] <pfred1> yup
[23:03:59] <cstop> lemmings!
[23:04:02] <pfred1> then the thole thing dropping dead all at once and getting buried
[23:04:22] <pfred1> doesn't happen everyday but in the past couple billion years it has happened enough times
[23:04:23] <kb8wmc> it makes for a good story pfred1
[23:04:33] <andypugh> But you can see peat beds, and see how they have been there a long time, and will stay there. Some of them could easily be buried by sediment or volcanos in the short term, then be further buried by tectonics in the longer term.
[23:05:03] <cstop> a sucession of "dropping dead Where are the dreationists when you need them, they could tell us the real events
[23:05:16] <cstop> creationists
[23:05:21] <andypugh> Coal is quite obviously made of trees. Limestone caves 1000m deep are clearly made of shells,
[23:05:41] <pfred1> andypugh thats a lot of clams
[23:05:47] <kb8wmc> the creationists are driving their fossil fueled autos to their church
[23:06:03] <pfred1> yeah how some cling to the literal bible is beyond me
[23:06:20] <pfred1> what is the world to them 6,800 years old?
[23:06:43] <pfred1> the devil put them fossils in the ground to fool you!
[23:06:45] <kb8wmc> I read some of the earlier posts about giver-ment, most interesting
[23:07:00] <cstop> Wait! Every culture on every continent has it's version of the deluge. Heck, I even have one!
[23:07:04] <pfred1> who ever thought the devil was such a boring guy?
[23:07:27] <pfred1> he has nothing better to do than to run around and fake fossil evidence
[23:07:28] <kb8wmc> "government", a disease masquerading as its own cure!
[23:07:51] <kb8wmc> lol
[23:07:53] <pfred1> should we evne be scared of a creature like that?
[23:08:30] <cstop> If they put flouride in the water we should be
[23:09:25] <pfred1> the way some people think makes me think there is more than just flouride in some folks water
[23:09:37] <kb8wmc> yes sir
[23:09:44] <andypugh> Why put stuff in the water? Chemtrails from planes are so much easier :-)
[23:10:02] <cstop> this conversation is much like the egg machine. A pretty pattern for the entertainment of any who may look upon it
[23:10:08] <kb8wmc> maybe it is a combination of things
[23:10:15] <kb8wmc> try everything
[23:10:37] <kb8wmc> in either case, someone has a purpose behind the actions
[23:10:41] * pfred1 has partaken of some funny water and never had such strange notions
[23:11:00] <andypugh> My excuse is that I am drunk. I hope that is true of you guys too.
[23:11:29] <pfred1> andypugh I've been drunk enough in my past to excuse all of my tomorrows
[23:11:34] <kb8wmc> haven't even started yet andypugh , maybe I should consider it
[23:11:58] <andypugh> And I just noticed that it is 5am ! Eeek!
[23:12:11] <cstop> the Bilderberg society
[23:12:17] <pfred1> andypugh take it from me never drop acid then try to siphon gasoline
[23:12:18] <andypugh> OK, must sleep,
[23:12:21] <kb8wmc> heard of them
[23:12:38] <kb8wmc> night to you andypugh
[23:12:58] <cstop> night then Andy!
[23:13:01] <andypugh> Night, err, morning all
[23:14:41] <kb8wmc> good conversations, but I am gonna call it quits for tonight....good night to all
[23:14:51] <pfred1> least not unless your idea of a good time is to rip a hole in the fabric of time and space and live an eternity in an instant
[23:14:52] <kb8wmc> have a good one
[23:15:14] <kb8wmc> best to all
[23:15:37] <pfred1> because that is what happened to me when I tried it!
[23:16:45] <pfred1> then it really got weird
[23:19:36] <cstop> must have been something you ate
[23:19:57] <pfred1> I blame it on the energy crisis of the 70s
[23:20:15] <pfred1> see after that they put anti siphon devices into all filler necks
[23:20:28] <pfred1> butdamned if I was gonna take no gas for an answer!
[23:20:28] <cstop> If you remember the 70's, you were not there...
[23:20:38] <pfred1> I was there
[23:20:52] <pfred1> but i didn't really come of age until the 80s
[23:20:53] <cstop> whoa flash back
[23:21:44] <cstop> night owl