#linuxcnc | Logs for 2012-02-02

[03:39:07] <Loetmichel_> moin
[03:39:43] <Loetmichel> s/moin/mornin'
[07:04:41] <awallin> hmm, -20C over here today...
[07:15:42] <alex_joni> yup, pretty cold over here too
[07:15:47] <alex_joni> -13 .. -15C
[07:16:08] <jdhNC> brisk 23C here this afternoon.
[07:16:52] <alex_joni> awallin: going to austria this weekend, -27C announced there :(
[07:18:15] <awallin> yeah, southern finland is close to the sea, so that stabilizes things a bit. if you are inland with no sea close it can get really cold. They had -35C up north I think.. next week it's supposed to be "warm" -10C again
[07:43:22] <skunkworks> 0 here.. not bad.
[09:44:47] <mrsun> hmm, acceleration of 2047 ... might that be the problem to my stallings? ;P
[09:45:21] <awallin> just get bigger motors!
[09:46:38] <archivist> except then inertial mass is higher!
[09:48:57] <mrsun> lowered it to about 50 and now they are quite strong =)
[10:20:15] <joe9> mikegg: do you have any "pogo pins" that I can borrow? I need them urgently and will give them back to you when the order ships from mouser/digikey?
[10:21:04] <mrsun> 0 in backlash on X axis, 0.03 on Y axis, then linuxcnc comes into play with its backlash compensation =)
[10:21:17] <mrsun> i love that function ... love it love it =)
[10:25:46] <joe9> mikegg: or, I can buy them from you. whichever you prefer.
[10:43:09] <mrsun> hmm, i feel crippled by bad cam software ... sigh :P
[10:48:06] <Tom_itx> good cam software is available :)
[10:55:05] <mikegg> joe9: the spring loaded kind, you mean
[10:55:05] <mikegg> ?
[10:55:09] <joe9> yes
[10:55:14] <mikegg> hmm
[10:55:18] <mikegg> I don't think so
[10:55:23] <joe9> ok, thanks.
[10:55:45] <joe9> do you know any place locally where I can find them? fry's might not carry it. I think
[10:55:51] <mikegg> try Ack radio
[10:56:02] <mikegg> off Northside and Deering
[10:56:08] <joe9> cool, thanks.
[10:56:27] <mikegg> or McMaster-Carr will call, maybe
[10:56:48] <joe9> ok, thanks. will check with them both.
[10:56:58] <mikegg> yeah, they got em http://www.mcmaster.com/#pogo-pins/=g2pltn
[10:57:21] <mikegg> they're down off fulton industrial
[10:57:57] <joe9> mikegg: cool, thank you so much.
[11:10:30] <joe9> the ack radio seems to have a lot of history. Is it a cool store?
[11:11:14] <joe9> i have been going to fry's for anything I need that I cannot wait for digikey/mouser
[11:11:28] <Jymmm> digikey should have pogo pins I'd think
[11:11:44] <joe9> Jymmm: i think they do.
[11:11:50] * Tom_itx gives Jymmm a pogo stick to play with
[11:12:15] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: Only if it's gas engine powered
[11:12:30] <Tom_itx> those were made here in town
[11:12:31] <Tom_itx> btw
[11:12:37] <Tom_itx> chance MFG
[11:12:43] <Jymmm> really?
[11:12:45] <Jymmm> heh
[11:12:54] <Tom_itx> basically like a pyle driver
[11:12:58] <Tom_itx> single piston
[11:13:56] <Jymmm> Personally, I'd have lawyers for salesmen, then when they sell them they get the release of liability correct too.
[11:14:16] <Tom_itx> http://www.bpmlegal.com/wpogo.html
[11:15:16] <Jymmm> That McMaster link doesn't even say if those pins are gold plated or not.
[11:15:36] <Jymmm> you really want the gold plated ones.
[11:17:14] <Tom_itx> Jymmm, ever watch gallery 64?
[11:17:18] <Tom_itx> err whatever it is
[11:17:29] <Tom_itx> they auctioned one on there a while back
[11:17:35] <Jymmm> BTW... This has shut down four schools for a week in the Bay Area http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norovirus
[11:17:51] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: That must be where I saw it the first time.
[11:19:08] <Jymmm> Alcohol aka Hand Sanitizers are not too effective either.
[11:40:44] <pcw_home> http://www.random-good-stuff.com/2007/01/18/ebay-gas-powered-pogo-stick-hoprod/
[11:42:44] <Jymmm> The handle is almost twice as wide as the foot pegs - fsck me
[12:18:35] <pcw_home> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixLJghjYi00&feature=related
[12:30:21] <skunkworks> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQIMGV5vtd4&feature=player_embedded
[12:35:26] <mikegg> ahhhhh pcw_home: thank you for making such awesome hardware! I'm finally able to get a good tune on my servos
[12:36:13] <mikegg> with those +/- 10 VDC analog drives, you couldn't tune them for shit. I think they are really sensitive to noise. any D-gain and they become unstable
[12:37:22] <mikegg> I love this 7i39. rock solid
[12:38:45] <Jymmm> mikegg: You forgot the "pcw, YOU'RE MY HERO! <rapid blinking of eyes goes here>"
[12:38:58] <mikegg> hah
[12:39:11] <Jymmm> =)
[12:39:44] <pcw_home> Well crude old voltage mode PWM has one nice redeeming virtue: inherent high frequency damping damping
[12:40:25] <skunkworks> I am using +/-10 drives with great results. (but Also mesa interface hardware so maybe that is the magic ;) )
[12:40:43] <mikegg> are they torque mode?
[12:41:08] <skunkworks> took 2 tries to hook the the mesa connected to the drive without noise issues.
[12:41:09] <mikegg> I got the best results in torque mode, but they had a deadband around zero
[12:41:15] <pcw_home> Torque mode drives are a bear to tune without a pretty high servo thread rate
[12:41:17] <Jymmm> Magic? That would explain the chicken bones and eye-of-newt invoice I saw on mesa's website.
[12:41:23] <skunkworks> I have 3 in velocity mode and 1 in torque mode
[12:41:25] <FinboySlick> Jymmm: Was it you I was discussing Trailer Park Boys with a while back?
[12:41:39] <Jymmm> FinboySlick: I seriously doubt it
[12:42:00] <FinboySlick> Alright.
[12:42:01] <Jymmm> but could be
[12:42:09] <FinboySlick> Well, you a fan?
[12:42:21] <mikegg> there's a funny youtube compilation of "ricky-isms"
[12:42:27] <skunkworks> 2 of the 3 have actual tachs - 1 uses sythisized tach from the mesa encoder. works great.\
[12:42:28] <Jymmm> not really
[12:43:06] <pcw_home> with torque mode drives you also will want to use the velocity estimation from the encoder module in the PID loop, not just DP/DT
[12:44:24] <pcw_home> which is the default unless you connect the PID comps feedback-deriv pin
[12:48:52] <FinboySlick> mikegg: You seen this? http://www.indiegogo.com/race-dicks
[12:49:12] <mikegg> as in net velocity_fb hm2_5i20.0.encoder.00.velocity pid.0.feedback-deriv
[12:49:14] <mikegg> ?
[12:49:14] <FinboySlick> (it's tpb related, not um... penile related)
[12:50:39] <mikegg> it says former trailer park boys...did they cancel that show!?
[12:57:47] <pcw_home> mikegg yes that will reduce the D term noise quite a bit
[13:04:34] <skunkworks> works quite well
[13:10:14] <mikegg> shucks, I never tried that...
[13:10:49] <mikegg> I think I'm going to pick up some servos on the bay to convert my lathe. Maybe I'll give it another go..
[14:14:42] <kirk_wallace> Hello, I'm trying to get Modbus working on my SJ200 VFD . Using modpoll I can read coils, which start at address 0x01, but I can't read registers. The manual shows addresses for registers, but apparently, these are indexes to the register block start, which is not stated in the manual. I searched for other information and found an app note that indicated the registers start at 40001, but modpoll returns an illegal address error from the SJ200.
[14:17:20] <kirk_wallace> BTW, I got a MVX900 VFD using the same procedure, but the MVX manual gave the proper addresses, and not an index dependent offset.
[14:27:10] <FinboySlick> mikegg: They didn't cancel the show, the entire story ended with the last movie.
[14:27:17] <FinboySlick> And a *very* drunk Lahey.
[14:29:53] <mikegg> ah, ok. I'm still a little sensitive after Arrested Development :)
[14:30:51] <FinboySlick> mikegg: I heard there's two new seasons of that and a movie in the work.
[14:32:13] <wendtmk> Howdy
[14:32:35] <skunkworks> wow - been a while?
[14:32:57] <wendtmk> Yeah, it has. Family and work getting in the way of me getting here.
[14:34:19] <wendtmk> You shoulda seen the software updater when I turned my computer on for the first time in a number of months. About 200 MB of software updates, including v2.4.7 of uh, linuxCNC... ;-)
[14:34:52] <wendtmk> We got any HAL guys onboard today?
[14:37:52] <mrsun> gah put some set screws on the base of the mill to ease tramming it ... yeah right ...
[14:38:01] <mrsun> cant get it trammed however i do it :/
[14:39:03] <skunkworks> just ask
[14:40:58] <skunkworks> wendtmk: what project are you working on?
[14:41:28] <kirk_wallace> I'm looking for help with modbus on an SJ200 VFD. I asked about a half hour ago, but can repost.
[14:42:23] <wendtmk> Welp, with the upgrade to 2.4.7, a a HAL Pin that had worked up to today no longer works. In my custom_postgui.hal file, I've got the config set for both an MPG and a joypad. No problems with the MPG, but this line: "net remote-speed-slow or2.0.in0 input.0.btn-trigger" now causes EMC2 to barf on startup, with this error: "custom_postgui.hal :87: Pin 'input.0.btn-trigger' does not exist
[14:43:09] <wendtmk> Ah, this is my CNC saw beveler that I've had up and running for a while now.
[14:44:23] <wendtmk> So, did the btn-trigger pin get deprecated in one of the last few releases? I don't remember what release I had on before it got upgraded yesterday to 2.4.7
[14:44:45] <skunkworks> wendtmk: yes - a pin changed depending on how linux enumerated it.. (or something like that)
[14:45:09] <wendtmk> Forgot to mention, if I comment out that line, EMC2 starts up just fine.
[14:45:42] <skunkworks> so - start linuxcnc with it commented and look at the pin list.
[14:45:57] <skunkworks> it is the trigger name that changed iirc
[14:46:22] <cpresser> perhaps you need to change the hal component from hal_joystick to hal_input
[14:46:58] <cpresser> but most likely linuxcnc wouldnt start if you tried to load a nonexistent module
[14:47:24] <wendtmk> All right, give me a few and I'll start it up with that pin commented out
[14:49:03] <mrsun> oh ive been doing it wroong .... how nice :P
[14:49:55] <mrsun> oh well, you live and you learn =)
[14:50:45] <wendtmk> Yeah, it's the trigger name, but I'm not sure which one is the one that replaced it looking at the HAL btn-*
[14:51:31] <wendtmk> Lets see if I can find my joypad doccy's from when I set this thing up originally.
[14:53:11] <skunkworks> wendtmk: I think it changed to input.0.btn.joystick
[14:53:28] <skunkworks> http://www.linuxcnc.org/index.php/english/component/kunena/?func=view&catid=24&id=14636
[14:54:57] <wendtmk> Okay, lemme try that and see if it works
[14:57:25] <wendtmk> That was it! Muchos Gracias!!!
[15:05:06] <skunkworks> great!
[15:08:01] <wendtmk> You guys make this stuff too easy... ;-)
[15:25:46] <Connor> Wow, how cool. I just "power" tapped for the first time on my mini lathe.. Just put the tap in the tail stock chuck. put the lathe in slowest speed. Move the tailstock up close and fed the tap in.. it pulled the chuck out of the tail stock so I just applied hand force to the chuck and it tapped.. when it got hard.. I reversed the tap to break the chips and forward again.
[15:27:49] <Connor> Using regular hand taps, which I know your not suppose to do.. but.. it's all I have...
[15:28:12] <joe9> mikegg: mcmaster's is awesome. it is huge.
[15:29:41] <mikegg> haha, yeah. That place always blows my mind. great resource to have here
[15:31:01] <joe9> yes, I agree. Even Ack is not bad, compared with what Fry's/radioshack has to offer.
[15:31:17] <mikegg> If you get your order in early in the morning, they've got a courier service that will get your parts same day in the city
[15:31:44] <joe9> which one, mcmaster or ack?
[15:31:50] <mikegg> mcmaster
[15:32:08] <joe9> i used to go to Trukut for drill bits. looks like mcmaster beats them by a lot.
[15:41:29] <mikegg> you gotta watch it with McMaster, they don't always have the most competitive prices if you can wait a few days...
[15:51:04] <gene__> Silly Q guys: Whar #var holds the current state of the probe contact?
[15:51:07] <joe9> oh, thanks. They appeared to be a bit pricey.
[15:53:09] <Jymmm> gene__: Geeze man, that's such a silly question <rolls eyes>. You know it's :ThisOfCourseIsTheVariableThatHoldsTheStateOfTheProbeSilly
[15:55:03] <gene__> Is that 5070? Its sorta buried at the bottom of the g38 stuff. What I want to do after contact is move a thou & recheck, if stiil true=0 move 2 thou the other way
[15:55:43] <cradek> gene__: you can't read the level, you can only work with edge detection. can you rethink a way to get what you want with that?
[16:00:49] <gene__> I'm going in the x dir, trying to find both sides of a hole, and I just found that 5070 is not being updated when conntact is made or broken with a simple jog of a thou or so
[16:02:15] <gene__> How is the edge detection tested for? Only with a g38.2?
[16:03:18] <cradek> gene__: http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/devel/html/gcode.html
[16:03:29] <cradek> near the top
[16:04:42] <mrsun> http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=65y7G_sstno heh he got quite alot of machines =)
[16:06:11] <syyl_> oh yes has a great shop
[16:06:25] <syyl_> and a deckel fp1 :D
[16:07:03] <mrsun> i could only wish that was my stuff in my lifetime :P
[16:07:24] <pfred1> mrsun work on your credit score
[16:07:27] <gene__> I see that, it says the same as my printout, no help there because #5070 is only update by a g38 call
[16:07:38] <mrsun> pfred1, credit score?
[16:07:52] <gene__> to the drawing board... Thanks
[16:07:56] <pfred1> mrsun sure so yo ucan borrow the money to buy it all
[16:08:05] <mrsun> i do not borrow
[16:08:13] <mrsun> =)
[16:09:28] <mrsun> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVCKdELtnJ8&feature=related hehe thats how littered my shop looks, tho i do not have that much machines and cabinets etc still i manage to have tools layinga round everywhere :P
[16:16:05] <pfred1> mrsun this guy lives in the rust belt where people have been throwing that old junk out for years
[16:22:04] <FinboySlick> mrsun: I say too many grinders.
[16:23:48] <[n0b0dy]> getting shop envy
[16:56:18] <skunkworks> gene__: http://youtu.be/KOi51ogqels
[17:13:48] <Jymmm> skunkworks: is that a TOUCH - as in electrical, or switch based probe?
[17:14:24] * JT-Shop is jealous of Sams touch probe
[17:14:41] <syyl_> i would bet that its switch based
[17:14:53] <skunkworks> we lucked out getting that thing.
[17:15:01] <skunkworks> it is a switch based
[17:15:07] <syyl_> yay ;)
[17:17:25] <pfred1> this just might work
[17:23:55] * FinboySlick pops the cork in celebration.... and because he just had some left over sparkling cider.
[17:25:52] <Valen> no such thing as left overs ;-P
[17:27:56] <FinboySlick> Valen: Not for long anyway.
[17:28:27] <FinboySlick> If I start spouting more random nonsense than usual, I likely drank it too fast.
[17:30:21] <pfred1> drink, drank, drunk, the three tenses of the word
[18:26:13] <Jymmm> OH MY GOSH! This is gonna be SO wonderful!!!
[18:31:36] <pfred1> Jymmm what is that?
[18:33:21] <gene__> skunkworks: sorry, off carving the bottom of a pcb, looking great
[18:34:24] <gene__> Just one problem: Axis's backplot is about 4" up in the air on the screen!
[18:34:53] <Jymmm> pfred1: I have one of these that use 1LB propane tanks. Just received the hose I ordered that lets me connect the heater to a 20LB propane tank http://www.mrheater.com/product.aspx?catid=41&id=24
[18:35:44] <Jymmm> pfred1: WE HAVE HEATAGE!!! and not at $4/lb anymore =)
[18:38:54] <pfred1> Jymmm what does a 20# tank cost to fill these days?
[18:39:56] <Jymmm> pfred1: If I EXCHANGE the tank at Lowes (which only fills to 15LBS) is $19.23 out-the-door (including sales tax).
[18:41:34] <pfred1> so far this year it hasn't gotten very cold right now in my garage no heat 59F
[18:42:00] <Jymmm> It's actually colder in the garage right now than outside
[18:42:59] <Jymmm> It can get cold enough in here that my fingers start to hurt even with fingerless gloves on.
[18:43:00] <pfred1> that can happen here to me too I have an indoor outdoor thermometer so i can take advantage of warmer temps outside now it is 43F outside
[18:43:12] <pfred1> yeah if i get cold I call it
[18:43:28] <pfred1> go inside and watch movies or something read a book
[18:43:49] <Jymmm> Yeah, I'm trying NOT to call it. I have things I need to do out here and this will help big time!
[18:44:07] <Jymmm> I wen thru about 6 1LB tanks last month.
[18:44:26] <pfred1> I don't need to do anything I'd like to do a few things now and again though
[18:44:28] <Jymmm> At least now that I have a 20# tank, I can get an adapter to refill the 1# tanks too.
[18:45:21] <Jymmm> It's a great lil heater, There's the Big Buddy too which I would consider next time.
[18:45:36] <pfred1> right now well right now I'm on IRC but right before I was making some bearing supports
[18:45:52] <pfred1> you don't want to see the propane heaters I have
[18:46:02] <pfred1> they freeze 20# tanks
[18:46:08] <Jymmm> the turbo jet kind?
[18:46:15] <pfred1> nah block heaters
[18:46:16] <Jymmm> 100,000 BTU
[18:46:19] <Jymmm> oh
[18:46:21] <pfred1> 250,000
[18:46:23] <Jymmm> heh
[18:46:44] <pfred1> warm you up in a jiffy :)
[18:46:58] <Jymmm> I was freezing 1# tank once in a while.
[18:47:22] <pfred1> yeah I have 4 propane tanks I'd swap around thaw one run on another
[18:47:41] <pfred1> but i haven't used them in years now last i bought gas it cost me $10 a fill
[18:48:21] <pfred1> in the dead of winter 20F I could get it to 100F inside a tent
[18:48:50] <pfred1> I have a pic someplace of that setup let me see if I can find it
[18:49:27] <pfred1> http://i.imgur.com/9v3PD.jpg
[18:50:08] <Jymmm> pfred1: you should exchange the tanks if you can so they dont get of of certification
[18:50:23] <pfred1> bit too late for that now
[18:50:32] <pfred1> they're the old style valves
[18:50:50] <pfred1> they did what i needed them to do
[18:50:51] <Jymmm> I got lucky enough to buy a 8yo tank off of CL for $5
[18:51:18] <Jymmm> exchanged it at Lowes and now have a 1yo tank =)
[18:53:10] <pfred1> I found when I heated my garage as it cooled I'd get mousture condensation and all of my tools would rust
[18:53:22] <pfred1> I wasn't too big for that
[18:53:39] <Jymmm> I bet
[18:54:01] <pfred1> so now i just take the season off if it gets cold this year it hasn't
[18:54:27] <Jymmm> you could insulate the place
[18:54:33] <pfred1> oh it is
[18:54:40] <Jymmm> oh, ew
[18:54:49] <pfred1> still gets cold eventually if it is cold outside
[18:55:10] <Jymmm> bet the condensation I would think wouldn't be so bad.
[18:55:17] <Jymmm> s//be/but/
[18:56:11] <pfred1> warm air just holds a lot more water than cold does and cold metal likes to condense
[18:56:30] <Jymmm> yeah, I understand.
[18:56:42] <pfred1> plus it is damp here
[18:57:01] <Jymmm> pfred1: Where's here?
[18:57:23] <pfred1> I'veo ne of the largest bays in the world to the west of me and one of the largest oceans to the east
[18:57:27] <cstop> It's damp here too... ;-)
[18:57:51] <pfred1> so no matter which way the wind is blowing it is blowing over water to get to me
[18:58:02] <Jymmm> pfred1: Where's here?
[18:58:07] <pfred1> Delaware
[18:58:12] <Jymmm> ah
[18:58:17] <pfred1> place is a penninsula
[18:58:39] <pfred1> we're basically sticking halfway out into the Atlantic Ocean
[19:00:02] <Jymmm> pfred1: Go underground! lol
[19:01:12] <pfred1> pfft if it is rainy I can hit water if I dig down 3 feet
[19:01:46] <pfred1> no one here has basements
[19:02:08] <Jymmm> go figure, basements are not really a Calif thing either too much.
[19:04:16] <pfred1> I had one at my old place I miss it
[19:05:26] <pfred1> I need to figure out a way to align these two pieces in order to drill them well 4 pieces really
[19:05:49] <Jymmm> C clamp ?
[19:06:33] <pfred1> once they're aligned that would be a good way to go
[19:06:52] <Jymmm> odd shape?
[19:07:23] <pfred1> they already have other holes in them that need to be lined up but they're not the same size holes
[19:08:02] <Jymmm> fill the holes with flat washer that all have the same ID
[19:10:05] <pfred1> I may have to do something like that in order to get it to work out
[19:14:04] <pfred1> I might have to make a stepped mandril on my lathe or something
[19:21:08] <Jymmm> pfred1: what about polymer clay?
[19:21:19] <pfred1> what about it?
[19:21:44] <Jymmm> pfred1: Fille th holes with it, bake em, then aligh em up
[19:22:02] <pfred1> I don't see how the clay helps
[19:22:20] <pfred1> the holes have to be in the pieces
[19:22:20] <Jymmm> makes the hole sizes consistant
[19:22:32] <Jymmm> the clya will pop out after
[19:22:53] <pfred1> but how do I guarantee I put holes in the clay in the middle?
[19:23:19] <pfred1> best i ever get eyeballing a hole is a few thous
[19:23:31] <pfred1> though if I'm off by that much with this it'd be OK
[19:25:13] <Jymmm> Well, unless you has some precision diamtere metal tubing that will nest instead each other, I have no clue.
[19:25:32] <pfred1> I could just turn two steps on a lathe
[19:25:48] <pfred1> they'd be concentric to each other
[19:27:11] <Jymmm> there ya go
[19:27:57] <pfred1> then i wing it with the other two pieces use center punches on them
[19:29:22] <pfred1> really somehow i need to get another piece in there but I'll cross that bridge when I come to it
[19:29:43] <pfred1> I want to make up the outside framework first then put that piece in
[19:30:58] <pfred1> I need to get all of this screwed together http://i.imgur.com/mRqmd.jpg
[19:31:13] <pfred1> then I need another bearing on the other side of the rod
[19:31:50] <Jymmm> whats the brown things?
[19:31:58] <pfred1> pillars?
[19:32:07] <Jymmm> made from what?
[19:32:11] <pfred1> phenolic
[19:32:53] <pfred1> stuff taps good I'm just going to tap it
[19:33:12] <Jymmm> I'd have used angled alumuinum and a couple of blocks
[19:33:21] <jdhNC> yeah, tap that.
[19:33:41] <Jymmm> jdhNC: you would tap any hole with hair around it!
[19:34:38] <jdhNC> I ran across a piece of phenolic at work about 8" thick, 2ft x 2ft, weighed a ton
[19:34:51] <pfred1> I didn't have a big enough piece of 1/2" thick sheet so I glued 2 1/4" pieces together
[19:35:12] <jdhNC> had a small rectangle badly cut out of one corner
[19:36:06] <pfred1> stuff is pretty nice to work with shame it is so expensive
[19:37:02] <pfred1> I priced out the piece i cut that off of and it is $156
[19:37:52] <pfred1> I ran across the stuff i have got it all for free
[19:38:09] <jdhNC> this was being thrown out
[19:38:50] <pfred1> jdhNC a couple folks had to die but essentially yes
[19:39:16] <jdhNC> heh, I meant the big chunk I could have had
[19:39:31] <jdhNC> except, I can't have it... it has to be thrown away
[19:39:33] <pfred1> oh man don't pass it up it is great stock
[19:40:10] <jdhNC> tons of ancient servos and drives too
[19:40:11] <pfred1> throw it away into your trunk
[19:40:15] <jdhNC> all in a dumpster
[19:40:31] <pfred1> do a double time Sunday :)
[19:41:44] <pfred1> a buddy of mine gave me a bunch of steppers he cleaned out of a stock room at a place where he worked
[19:42:14] <pfred1> the one on the bottom in my picture is one of them
[19:42:36] <pfred1> nice little motor
[19:43:37] <pfred1> he gave me some bigger ones too but I don't have drivers for anything their size
[19:47:54] <jdhNC> what happens if you a big motor on a small drive?
[19:48:10] <pfred1> it runs junky and maybe your driver burns out
[19:48:16] <jdhNC> will it burn it up or just be slow/weak?
[19:48:26] <pfred1> the motor won't but the driver might
[19:48:52] <pfred1> but yeah you can expect diminished performance
[19:49:48] <pfred1> someday when I've nothing better to do I'll make drivers for bigger motors
[19:51:31] <pfred1> jdhNC right now i kind of like the use more little motors theory though
[19:52:04] <pfred1> as designed my 3 axis machine uses 5 motors 2 on X 2 on Y and one Z
[19:52:20] <jdhNC> that's a lot of increased failure points
[19:52:30] <pfred1> that way I get big motor performance with little motor pricetag
[19:52:41] <jdhNC> should be speedier also?
[19:52:54] <skunkworks> mach rigid tapping http://youtu.be/19aSV9JeU10
[19:52:59] <pfred1> well with gantry routers you have to worry about racking
[19:53:31] <pfred1> so people put in these stupid chain drives or belt drives or what have you
[19:53:52] <skunkworks> G01C7200Z-.9 (20 turns 1" down)
[19:53:53] <skunkworks> G01C0Z.1 (Back the other way)
[19:54:50] * skunkworks hugs linuxcnc again
[19:55:18] <jdhNC> looks pretty good to me.
[19:55:51] <jdhNC> teh power drawbar too
[20:03:01] * JT-Shop says Bloody Well Right!
[20:04:46] * JT-Shop gets back to making a couple of cannon stocks
[20:21:39] <hmm> Hi, got a question about feeds and speeds. Can anyone help me?
[20:21:59] <pfred1> hmm?
[20:22:46] <Tom_itx> not unless you ask
[20:23:02] <hmm> ok, so I'm a novice
[20:23:13] <hmm> and I need to cut some 0.25" thick delrin
[20:23:34] <pfred1> I've machined HDPE
[20:23:47] <hmm> with a 0.125" end mill. I tried calculating feeds and speeds using a SFPM of 400
[20:23:54] <Tom_itx> you need sharp cutters for plastic
[20:23:56] <pfred1> pretty much if it ain't melting you can go faster ;)
[20:24:05] <MattyMatt> you shoulda said the magic delrin word in #reprap hmm :) I'v done a lot of that
[20:24:10] <hmm> but that's given me insanely high spindle speeds (like in the 12000s"
[20:24:24] <jdhNC> 12000 sounds good to me
[20:24:28] <jdhNC> or 15k
[20:24:31] <Tom_itx> pick your spindle speed first if the machine won't do it
[20:24:33] <MattyMatt> I use 20k
[20:24:35] <pfred1> hmm yup plastic is as fast as you can run until it starts to burn on you
[20:24:48] <hmm> Oh, well i can't go higher than 8000
[20:24:54] <Tom_itx> then figure your chip load to get your fpm
[20:24:57] <pfred1> then there's your answer
[20:25:11] <jdhNC> how many flutes?
[20:25:13] <MattyMatt> use coolant even if it means standing there with a tube in your mouth blowing air
[20:25:36] <pfred1> MattyMatt you don't need to cool plastic unless you're running too fast
[20:25:43] <hmm> two flutes
[20:25:44] <MattyMatt> that's what I have to do on my plywood mill
[20:26:33] <pfred1> machining plastic is like playing lets pretend to machine
[20:26:35] <hmm> how do I find the chip load?
[20:26:35] <MattyMatt> or too slow, and the dust isn't getting blown out. that melts
[20:26:44] <hmm> Is it in a data tabl?
[20:27:27] <MattyMatt> I've got some 1 flutes for the next time I have to do it. 4 flutes was horrible
[20:27:39] <pfred1> yeah you want open for chips
[20:28:11] <pfred1> and like someone already said super sharp
[20:28:32] <pfred1> then plastic machines like a dream
[20:28:49] <MattyMatt> if you can arrange a jet of anything to blow the chips out, even better
[20:28:49] <jdhNC> delrin cuts great anyway
[20:28:52] <pfred1> even better than aluminum
[20:29:36] <pfred1> MattyMatt you should be running fast enough the chips clear due to spindle speed
[20:29:44] <pfred1> they should be flying out
[20:29:54] <MattyMatt> real delrin is nicer than copolymer POM too, that's slightly greasy/stringy like PE
[20:30:25] <pfred1> I usually end up with a birds nest on my endmill that acts like a fan anyways
[20:30:30] <MattyMatt> I run about 20krpm
[20:30:46] <MattyMatt> yeah that happens :)
[20:30:49] <pfred1> but being plastic it is fairly harmless
[20:31:16] <MattyMatt> chipping delrin out of my 4 flute became tedious
[20:31:29] <pfred1> yeah no you want a bit you'd never run in metal
[20:31:48] <pfred1> really thin webbed
[20:32:03] <pfred1> I mean come on you're beating the stuffing out of plastic
[20:32:11] <MattyMatt> like a drill bit? :)
[20:32:55] <MattyMatt> I can't help comparing the price of a designed-for-plastic endmill and a broken drill bit
[20:33:16] <MattyMatt> afaics, they are very similar form
[20:33:18] <pfred1> drill bits have all sorts of different webs and twists so it is hard to say
[20:33:54] <MattyMatt> I don't have any sort of toolgrinder, so I haven't been able to test
[20:34:17] <MattyMatt> not even a plain wheel to sharpen tools normally
[20:34:17] <hmm> So I'm using the formula: Feedrate= RPM * # teeth * chipload
[20:35:17] <hmm> And I'm going to use my fastest RPM, which is ~7600, with a 2 flute endmill (0.125" diameter") and a 0.002 chipload at a 0.05 depth of cut
[20:35:34] <hmm> feedrate= 7600*2*0.002
[20:35:39] <pfred1> why such a small diameter bit?
[20:35:43] <hmm> 30.4
[20:35:47] <hmm> in/min
[20:36:04] <hmm> 1/8 end mill because there are some features on the part that have to be that diameter
[20:36:11] <pfred1> ah
[20:36:20] <pfred1> shame
[20:36:25] <hmm> :/
[20:36:30] <jdhNC> 1/8" is fine
[20:36:38] <pfred1> yeah it's only plastic
[20:36:49] <hmm> but 30.4" in/min seems really fast; Is this only because I'm a novice?
[20:36:59] <jdhNC> it's not very fast for delrin
[20:37:10] <MattyMatt> 1/8" is the largest I can get in my dremel :) I've got an ER16 chuck for my next spindle
[20:37:13] <pfred1> if the bit snaps it is too fast
[20:37:33] <pfred1> only real way to tell
[20:37:36] <jdhNC> try it on a scrap part
[20:37:38] <hmm> would you recommend that I go at a shallower depth of cut?
[20:37:54] <MattyMatt> yeah go fast so you're not dwelling. that makes friction melting more likely
[20:38:00] <pfred1> you'll probably be fine
[20:38:26] <pfred1> MattyMatt yup better to move along than sit and melt
[20:38:27] <hmm> Oh, I forgot to mention one thing; I'm not sure if it matters: The operation is a profile operation, so there's no stepover
[20:38:40] <MattyMatt> delrin machines lovely until it hits 165C and melts like wax
[20:38:41] <hmm> so it's cutting with the full diameter
[20:38:48] <jdhNC> I do 30krpm at 25ipm, single flute seems to get rid of chips better
[20:39:14] <pfred1> jdhNC climbing or conventional?
[20:39:19] <hmm> 30000 rotations per minute???
[20:40:15] <jdhNC> hmm: that's what it say, never tach'ed it though. might be 25k
[20:40:19] <pfred1> hmm plastic likes high surface speeds
[20:40:40] <hmm> The only problem is that I've already snapped one 1/8th bit already
[20:40:45] <jdhNC> in delrin?
[20:40:45] <MattyMatt> mine can go 36k, but I don't like the noise it makes at full speed
[20:40:47] <hmm> I think that it was because my depth of cut was too fast
[20:40:48] <cpresser> i do acrylic with singel-flute 1/8in with about 18k rpm at a feedrate of 2000mm/min
[20:40:51] <hmm> and it was aluminum
[20:41:06] <hmm> sorry, depth of cut was too *deep
[20:41:07] <pfred1> plastic isn't aluminum
[20:41:17] <cpresser> it gives nice chips, no melting
[20:41:23] <hmm> Well, I'll give it a try
[20:41:46] <jdhNC> what DoC are you planning for the delrin?
[20:41:53] <hmm> Y'alls mills move fast
[20:41:59] <hmm> DoC?
[20:42:07] <jdhNC> mine is router
[20:42:12] <pfred1> my mill only does 2,500 RPM
[20:42:25] <cpresser> same. i use a gantry router
[20:42:47] <hmm> jdhNC: what do you mean by DoC?
[20:42:49] <cpresser> make sure your chips are 'large'. each chip takes away heat :)
[20:42:50] <jdhNC> bolt a high speed spindle on to your head
[20:42:54] <pfred1> but I can put a 3 inch diameter cutter into it so that kind of makes up for it
[20:42:55] <jdhNC> Depth of Cut
[20:43:13] <jdhNC> 3" cutter wastes a lot of stock if you are just profiling delrin
[20:43:55] <hmm> oh, 0.05" depth of cut
[20:43:57] <cpresser> i would suggest to hav Doc < tool diameter
[20:44:07] <hmm> 0.125" endmill
[20:44:47] <jdhNC> .05 in delrin is nothing
[20:45:08] <hmm> Do you think that 4 in/min would be too slow?
[20:45:15] <jdhNC> yes, it will melt
[20:45:35] <MattyMatt> way too slow, if your mill can't go faster you WILL need to nurse it with coolant
[20:45:37] <hmm> I'm only asking because I've never gone over 5 in/min on any operation... :/
[20:45:50] <hmm> ok
[20:46:21] <pfred1> plastic is almost as low on the scale as foam after that you're into milling gasses
[20:46:31] <hmm> haha
[20:46:41] <hmm> well, good night
[20:46:42] <hmm> thanks guys
[20:47:05] <jthornton> I go 450IPM...
[20:47:26] <MattyMatt> even wood could bend my floppy Z at 1mm DoC before I sorted it out
[20:48:29] <MattyMatt> it's still not what I'd call solid, but it's a lot better now
[20:48:48] <pfred1> MattyMatt you ever check out my Z Axis in progress?
[20:49:54] <MattyMatt> I can't recall. I had a hdd failure just after I saw your last pics :p
[20:50:20] <pfred1> MattyMatt I'd say it is pretty solid for the first few inches of travel http://i.imgur.com/rUfIX.jpg
[20:51:34] <MattyMatt> looks OK for chipboard :) I thought the clamps look even better tho
[20:51:40] <pfred1> MattyMatt then the router sits in it sort of like this http://i.imgur.com/zWNB9.jpg
[20:51:58] <pfred1> it is melamine
[20:52:37] <MattyMatt> telescopic? nice
[20:52:53] <pfred1> yes there are two square tubes
[20:53:16] <pfred1> that second picture is the inner tube
[20:53:22] <pfred1> like a tire!
[20:53:29] <MattyMatt> probably cheaper than my drawer slides too
[20:54:03] <pfred1> I got the shelves at a thrift store for 50 cents a piece I used 5
[20:54:19] <MattyMatt> excellent
[20:54:58] <MattyMatt> it is still chipboard under the melamine tho, so don't expect it to last forever once the oil starts flying
[20:55:04] <pfred1> I'm trying to keep it all low budget
[20:55:12] <pfred1> what oil?
[20:55:19] <pfred1> I'm only going to cut wood with it
[20:55:29] <pfred1> I have a mill for metals
[20:55:50] <MattyMatt> I don't :) I'm stuck with wood-on-wood action for now
[20:56:22] <pfred1> yeah no I'd never try to cut metal with a wooden machine
[20:56:27] <MattyMatt> hopefully I can handle alu now I've added a few key parts of metal
[20:56:46] <pfred1> yeah aluminum is pretty easy going
[20:56:58] <pfred1> when you get into steel it starte getting real then
[20:57:21] <MattyMatt> epoxy-granite is where I'm headed for metalwork tools
[20:57:25] <pfred1> then things can start to go boom
[20:58:19] <pfred1> yeah i always wondered why more people didn't avail themselves of fiberglass when making these homebrewed CNC machines
[20:59:15] <MattyMatt> yep I might still line mine with fiberglass to waterproof it
[20:59:16] <pfred1> glass can be pretty tough stuff
[21:00:05] <pfred1> I've cut a little particle board in my day and this stuff in these shelves is a cut above the stuff you can buy at a big box store
[21:00:16] <MattyMatt> I haven't worked out the cost of doing thick sections
[21:00:57] <MattyMatt> fibeglass is usually used in thin layers here for canoes etc
[21:00:58] <pfred1> I have never tried it but I cannot see why it wouldn't work to use cloth rag material on inside layers
[21:01:21] <pfred1> I mean once that resin hardens up its all over
[21:01:35] <MattyMatt> I've patched a scooter exhast with denim+epoxy :)
[21:01:43] <pfred1> you could put that stuff onto corrugated cardboard and get something tougher than wood
[21:01:47] <MattyMatt> it burned away in time but worked for a while
[21:02:11] <pfred1> yeah fiberglass stinks to the high heavens when it burns
[21:02:22] <hmm> Sorry, I just remembered to ask one more thing
[21:02:31] <skunkworks> 42!
[21:02:36] <pfred1> MattyMatt don't sell high temperature RTV short though!
[21:02:37] <hmm> Does it matter whether I use conventional or climbing ?
[21:03:09] <MattyMatt> depends how stiff your Z is
[21:03:19] <jdhNC> if you are just doing a profile, one side is climbing, the other is conventionaling
[21:03:23] <MattyMatt> if you've any flex, avoid climbing
[21:03:32] <pfred1> well if they're spinning fast enough it should overcome wanting to walk int othe work
[21:04:17] <MattyMatt> it's climbing out that (was) my problem
[21:04:26] <MattyMatt> REALLY floppy Z I had
[21:04:55] <hmm> ok, so conventional is better if I'm unsure about the setup?
[21:05:16] <hmm> I recently had a problem with delrin bowing up during an operation
[21:05:18] <pfred1> hmm only testing can tell
[21:05:42] <MattyMatt> double sided tape was a revelation for this workpiece
[21:05:48] <MattyMatt> ^thin work
[21:05:52] <pfred1> does it stick to plastic?
[21:05:58] <MattyMatt> yep
[21:06:01] <pfred1> oh good
[21:06:03] <hmm> will tape mess up the cutter?
[21:06:09] <pfred1> then it is a good way to go
[21:06:21] <pfred1> believe it or not tape is a lubricant
[21:06:40] <pfred1> scroll sawing trick to put box tape on top of work
[21:07:41] <MattyMatt> even 3-roll-for-a-pound stuf. the milling actioon burnishes it nicely. if feels dodgy grip when you mount it, but getting it off is a job
[21:08:01] <pfred1> goo gone
[21:08:17] <MattyMatt> paraffin :)
[21:08:20] <pfred1> which smells like citrus oil to me
[21:08:59] <MattyMatt> I find butane quite effective, probably because it freezes the goo
[21:09:08] <pfred1> heat gun gets it to peel pretty good too
[21:10:35] <pfred1> MattyMatt I saw a commercial machine that used 2 nested square tubes ar its Z axis that was what gave me the idea
[21:10:45] <MattyMatt> hmm, yes it does need picking off the cutter afterwards I find
[21:10:58] <MattyMatt> easily done tho
[21:11:00] <pfred1> yeah you can wash the cutter with acetone
[21:12:54] <hmm> ok
[21:13:21] <hmm> good night
[21:13:36] <MattyMatt> pfred1, RTV doesn't add any stiffness to the plywood tho. GRP will
[21:14:42] <MattyMatt> I could add an inch of concrete underneath the RTV tho :) my effective working area is smaller than my frame was intended for
[21:15:00] <MattyMatt> 2 inches even
[21:15:13] <MattyMatt> if momma's wooden floor can stand it
[21:17:03] <pfred1> MattyMatt I meant just for heat resistance
[21:17:22] <MattyMatt> ah for the scooter exhaust?
[21:17:26] <pfred1> I've used the stuff right on an exhaust header it holds up
[21:17:34] <MattyMatt> neat
[21:17:45] <pfred1> yeah I had my doubts but it has held
[21:17:59] <pfred1> I figured just to get through inspection
[21:18:16] <clytle374> Stuff called muffler putty will work also
[21:18:36] <MattyMatt> that's expensive, when you're a scooter rider :)
[21:18:50] <MattyMatt> this was in Holland when I was looking for work
[21:19:29] <pfred1> MattyMatt as a windmill maintenance man?
[21:19:41] <clytle374> In that case a soda can and a hose clamp works too
[21:19:42] <MattyMatt> tulip bulb planter
[21:19:54] <pfred1> ah I was going to say that
[21:20:09] <MattyMatt> and pickled herring processor
[21:20:22] <pfred1> wooden shoe salesman
[21:20:29] <MattyMatt> never did that
[21:20:51] <MattyMatt> I would now of course, with my wooden cnc
[21:21:10] <pfred1> I seen a video of a guy carving wooden shoes
[21:21:14] <MattyMatt> bicycle repairman was another trade I plied
[21:21:18] <pfred1> I donno if a machine can compete
[21:21:43] <MattyMatt> I think a copy lathe is how they're mostly done
[21:22:05] <MattyMatt> real ones, not the ones they make just for tourists now
[21:22:39] <MattyMatt> they were popular when everywhere was marshy, because they dry out quickly
[21:23:06] <MattyMatt> all the water has been tamed into canals these days
[21:23:36] <MattyMatt> no reason to get your feet wet on the way home, if you're sober
[21:25:26] <MattyMatt> it's only steelworkers and professional dutchmen actually wear them these days
[21:25:53] <MattyMatt> I knew one of the latter, he has a character :)
[21:26:16] <MattyMatt> ran a coffeeshop in leiden
[21:28:22] <MattyMatt> steelworkers clogs are just safety boots with wooden soles. that's an english clog
[21:30:33] <MattyMatt> I don't think they get that close to molten steel in modern works
[21:31:50] <MattyMatt> ore goes in at one end and emerges as hot pigs that go straight into the rollers
[21:32:36] <MattyMatt> they must have disaster crews waiting with wooden shoes tho
[21:35:29] <pfred1> http://svt.se/svt/road/Classic/shared/flash/VideoPlayer/svtplayer-2011.4.swf?&a=1371063&background=http%3A%2F%2Fmaterial.svtplay.se%2Fcontent%2F1%2Fc8%2F01%2F37%2F10%2F63%2Foa_43-0000-0000-sf3024_start.jpg&pathflv=http%3A%2F%2Fwww0.c00928.cdn.qbrick.com%2F00928%2Fkluster%2Foa_43-0000-0000-sf3024.flv&length=00%3A14%3A51&expression=sample&statisticsUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fld.svt.se%2Fsvt%2Fsvt%2Fs%3Fsvt-play.%25D6ppet-arkiv.%25D6ppet-arkiv.Fakta.Olika-hantverk
[21:36:21] <MattyMatt> one idea I had for a Z was steel square tubes with rows of balls in the corners
[21:37:34] <MattyMatt> yay, klompenhout :)
[21:39:16] <MattyMatt> I like his spoon tool
[21:39:29] <pfred1> the guy throws some chips
[21:39:57] <pfred1> it ovbiously isn't the first pair of shoes he has ever made
[21:41:45] <MattyMatt> I need an adze
[21:42:11] <MattyMatt> maybe. I don't get many logs to play with in the city
[21:42:24] <skunkworks> http://www.electronicsam.com/images/KandT/zaxis.JPG
[21:42:43] <pfred1> I have a couple acres of them in my backyard
[21:43:22] <MattyMatt> skunkworks that is remarkably similar to the original reprap
[21:43:46] <MattyMatt> it was declared overconstrained
[21:43:50] <skunkworks> heh
[21:44:55] <skunkworks> I think the threaded rod is 3/4"
[21:46:18] <MattyMatt> trouble with riding on screws is side forces massively increases friction
[21:46:27] <MattyMatt> that'd work great with ballscrews
[21:46:48] <skunkworks> do you see the rails?
[21:46:57] <MattyMatt> ah cool rails too
[21:47:13] <skunkworks> roller skate bearings
[21:48:07] <MattyMatt> I'll take a closer look when I'm done watching old men doing woodwork :)
[21:48:23] <pfred1> MattyMatt dead men by now
[21:49:20] <pfred1> I don't think these videos are speeded up I think they just move this fast
[21:50:30] <MattyMatt> naah they are speeded up. undercranking saved film
[21:51:23] <pfred1> still they weren't messing around
[21:52:12] <pfred1> they had some nice old tools back then
[21:53:46] <MattyMatt> swedish steel was the best in the world
[21:54:11] <pfred1> I like solingen but sweedish is good too
[21:55:44] <MattyMatt> potassium I think, it was naturally low in
[21:56:40] <MattyMatt> it's in bessemer's book why swedish was best
[21:56:58] <pfred1> well their pig iron
[23:30:55] <clytle374> seb_kuzminsky, got crazy busy. starting the Precise testing now.
[23:31:20] <clytle374> Funny that is takes another 800M of downloads just to be ready to build a kerenl
[23:32:36] <pfred1> a kernel of korn?
[23:34:12] <pfred1> clytle374 custom kernel http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/2250/wedoct27bootchart.png
[23:34:49] <pfred1> shaved about 30% off my boot time
[23:37:59] <clytle374> rc-parallel sped mine up a bunch. But that's not the point here
[23:40:31] <clytle374> http://www.dilbert.com/fast/2011-02-20/