#linuxcnc-devel Logs

Nov 24 2021

11:21 AM -!- #linuxcnc-devel mode set to +v by ChanServ
12:24 PM pere_: silopolis[m] seb_kuzminsky: did you check out <URL: https://hosted.weblate.org/hosting/ >?
01:24 PM silopolis[m]: pere: yes I did a year ago. For a couple of reasons that have blurred in my mind since, I came to favor Crowdin, even if not FOSS and not self hostable.
01:24 PM silopolis[m]: I think it was mainly because it gave worse results or didn't support non gettextized projects.
01:31 PM pere_ is now known as pere
01:31 PM pere: FOSS and self hostable are vital factors for me
02:02 PM pere: silopolis[m]: I assume the translations should be maintained using a web translation system like weblate. do you want to go with crowdin?
02:27 PM silopolis[m]: pere: they are critical for me too, and if I ended with Crowdin, that's because there was issues and only because Crowdin was built on standards and perfectly open. Allowing to keep the opportunity to migrate to weblate or another foss option once problems solved
02:28 PM pere: which standards are you talking about here?
02:28 PM silopolis[m]: I strongly believe a web platform is a big plus to bring non technical users to the bench
02:29 PM silopolis[m]: pere: Git and gettext mainly
02:32 PM silopolis[m]: Availability of extended features and collaboration are also strong levers to improve documentation quality
02:34 PM silopolis[m]: Another point is project resources, hardware, hosting, bandwidth, and all the more human.
02:34 PM pere: silopolis[m]: so same standards weblate is based on.
02:34 PM silopolis[m]: pere: yep
02:37 PM silopolis[m]: pere: may be that now that you've gettextized the docs, weblate could be back in the game 🙂
02:44 PM silopolis[m]: <silopolis[m]> "Another point is project..." <- We could host and maintain an instance of gitlab or any other git project management tool, but outsourcing it to GH allows to concentrate ourselves on LCNC
02:47 PM silopolis[m]: I see Crowdin as a candidate GH for translation
02:51 PM smoe: Is there much of a vendor-lock-in with either solution?
02:53 PM pere: kind of, but not really. the fundation is git and PO files, so you can always move somewhere else if you want. with weblate, you can set up your own site if you want.
02:54 PM roycroft: i don't know much about what you need when it comes to managing your repository, but i can tell you that i've been self-hosting a gitlab server for years, and it requires very little maintenance
02:54 PM smoe: pere: was expecting+hoping for that answer.
02:54 PM roycroft: i don't manage development teams on it - it's primarily used as a version control system for cad drawings
02:54 PM roycroft: but it's pretty easy to manage
02:54 PM pere: smoe: the lock-in is really with the community attached to the sites,
02:55 PM smoe: My hunch is that those who care for the project will follow it whereever it goes.
02:56 PM roycroft: you can't just copy a respository off a gitlab server - the file structure does not accomodate that - but you always clone it to a new system
02:56 PM pere: sure, but with weblate I often experience "drive by" translators who help out completing or starting translations.
02:57 PM pere: for example I just discovered someone passing by and translating 16% of <URL: https://hosted.weblate.org/projects/madewithcc/ > to Brazillian Portuguese.
03:01 PM smoe: I admit to like how weblate presents itself. Can we started with a hosted mode and then migrate elsewhere at some later time when we know the effort is worth it? Then I suggest to just pay those $17 and start.
03:01 PM smoe: I pay for the second month.
03:02 PM smoe: started -> get started
03:02 PM pere: go for it. :)
03:02 PM smoe: The second - I do not want to set anythign up.
03:03 PM smoe: And frankly, my prime concern is the English documentation, not the localized one. I very much expect that the English one will improve once many eyes look over it.
03:04 PM smoe: That may be a question I should have asked: Can translators comment on how to improve the original?
03:04 PM smoe: Are the quests to translate in their order of appearance such that the translator has a decent reading experience?
03:05 PM CaptHindsight[m]: please make suggestions in any language
03:06 PM pere: smoe: weblate have a comment/feedback mechanism, but it depend on someone reading them. :)
03:07 PM smoe: ;) I am just looking at translations of GnuCash - that is not an easy feat.
03:08 PM pere: smoe: did you test weblate yet?
03:10 PM smoe: Just made a first suggestion.
03:13 PM smoe: You invested quite some time into it all already. Since from what I oversee everyone is basically fine with everything - just start with the first and if it is no good then the next release will see this changed.
03:23 PM pere: sadly I feel like I'm loosing steam and need help completing the migration, as I have no way to migrate the existing translations on my own and have quite a lot going on elsewhere cutting down on my spare time.
03:31 PM smoe: Yip, everone prefers working with their lathe/mill. This year is already booked for me, I am afraid. Concering the migration of the existing translations I suggest to relax. Everyone understands that you are doing something good. Just have the original somewhere and let the community use this as a guide. It is nothing you need to do yourself, I am
03:31 PM smoe: reasonably confident.
03:31 PM smoe: You have time until the official release of 2.9, I presume :)
03:37 PM pere: when is the 2.9 release planned?
03:44 PM smoe: No idea, I just wanted to be funny.
03:47 PM smoe: Would of course be nice to have this in place until then - but in principle we do not need any such web interface to work with po4a, we just need to like the concept. Do you have any model about how you can for any given language have the old and new translations live side-by-side until the new outperforms the old?
03:53 PM smoe: Let me check out your branch and see how far I get.
03:58 PM smoe: What came to mind is to remove all languages from the .po transition for which you do not have someone at hand to help out.
04:02 PM smoe: We could also come up with some logic that installs a file like somefile_vi_manual.pdf if that is existing instead of an autogenerated somefile_vi.pdf. You'd then just go and continue working with the new system until the old files are removed. Correct?
04:18 PM smoe: Can I send patches to docs/po/Documentation.es.po? My workflow would not be to get one small document opened in English and Spanish and then find the corresponding paragraphs. You have likely already tried to run this in an automated fashion.
04:53 PM silopolis[m]: Quickly had another look at weblate and, well, this is a bit more than a web editor for po files, but really not that much, sadly.... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/d81c0f70f1124b1f246b8feb365eb794494a420e)
05:00 PM silopolis[m]: About the existing translations, I started to work on the french one, to try to save all that can be.
05:00 PM silopolis[m]: Could only spend a few hours on it this WE but that's a start. See my pending PR on translate-po4a branch.
05:00 PM silopolis[m]: OTOH, I don't want this outdated translation to sink pere 's efforts and slow pace for nothing. So I've no problem moving all fr files out of the way into the archive folder if that can help...
05:02 PM silopolis[m]: Speaking of folders, I too wish each translation would live in it's own subfolder so we have, IMHO, a better structured and cleaner tree
05:08 PM silopolis[m]: pere: I don't have as much time as I'd like, and rising pressure at work doesn't help, but I'm willing to help as much as I can with the translation infrastructure and migration.
05:08 PM silopolis[m]: A short document explaining the po4a workflow and usage, as well as a small todo list would help me step up to help
05:14 PM silopolis[m]: Have to sleep now, will get back here first thing waking up...
05:14 PM silopolis[m]: Very glad to have the opportunity of being part of this and again strongly motivated to push project's documentation to the next level, in french as well as is english
05:14 PM silopolis[m]: Bien à vous tous 🙂