#linuxcnc-devel | Logs for 2015-05-14

[00:00:58] <cradek> g'night
[00:01:03] <cradek> mmm deviled eggs
[00:20:26] <linuxcnc-build_> build #2531 of 4007.deb-precise-i386 is complete: Failure [4failed apt-get-update shell_1] Build details are at http://buildbot.linuxcnc.org/buildbot/builders/4007.deb-precise-i386/builds/2531 blamelist: Sebastian Kuzminsky <seb@highlab.com>
[00:40:29] <seb_kuzminsky> dafuq
[00:43:22] <seb_kuzminsky> oh, it's the "too many packages for apt" segfault again, argh
[00:43:48] <seb_kuzminsky> well, our buildslaves don't need ubuntu's "multiverse" component
[00:44:43] <seb_kuzminsky> linuxcnc-build_: force build --branch=2.6 0000.checkin
[00:44:45] <linuxcnc-build_> build forced [ETA 48m21s]
[00:44:45] <linuxcnc-build_> I'll give a shout when the build finishes
[01:53:05] <linuxcnc-build_> Hey! build 0000.checkin #3139 is complete: Success [3build successful]
[01:53:05] <linuxcnc-build_> Build details are at http://buildbot.linuxcnc.org/buildbot/builders/0000.checkin/builds/3139
[07:33:54] <jthornton> a huge problem with the pdf docs is what to put in each one. I'm still in favor of a single pdf document that mirrors the html docs...
[07:34:34] <Tom_itx> would make more sense if you're used to the html already
[07:35:20] <jthornton> the biggest problem is the hal manual, it should not even exist. All that content should be in the integrators manual
[07:36:24] <jthornton> at first I liked the pdf's but now prefer the html docs mainly because the pdf docs look terrible and are hard to read on debian
[07:37:48] <jthornton> bbl
[07:59:13] <JT-Shop> only 2 pdfs make sense to me Getting Started Guide and LinuxCNC Manual
[07:59:45] <JT-Shop> I need to try and get git installed in the debian machine in the cave
[08:22:25] <mozmck> JT-Shop: what about the User Manual? Would that go in Getting Started?
[08:23:29] <mozmck> I like the pdfs, because I'd rather not have to go to the web and click through links to read the documentation.
[08:25:29] <jepler> nothing but inertia stops us from putting the html docs in the packages, rather than the pdf docs
[08:25:48] <jepler> yes you'd be in your web browser but no you wouldn't be waiting for a website because it would be local to your machine
[08:28:02] <JT-Shop> mozmck, I'd think the user manual would be part of the LinuxCNC Manual
[08:28:18] <JT-Shop> jepler, how would that be done?
[08:28:55] <JT-Shop> that would mean unlimited links throughout the docs if we didn't have any pdfs
[08:29:04] <mozmck> Seems to me it would be nice to have a separate user manual then as we currently do, for people who are just using linuxcnc and not setting it up.
[08:29:48] <mozmck> jepler: I'll have to look at the html docs again - I have generally preferred the pdf docs for the look and layout, and easier searching.
[08:29:50] <JT-Shop> that's what we have now but it has limitations, no links between pdfs for one and second where did I see that info at?
[08:30:45] <JT-Shop> the pdf can have sections like we have now and one being the User section
[08:30:45] <mozmck> hmm, no links between pdfs is a minus.
[08:30:55] <mozmck> Yes.
[08:31:19] <JT-Shop> yea, I think that is why in the past we had the same info in both the user and the integrators and hal manuals
[08:31:52] <jepler> JT-Shop: mostly changing stuff in debian/ starting by changing --enable-build-documentation=pdf to --enable-build-documentation=html and modifying the install: lines to copy/move html files as appropriate instead of pdf files
[08:32:08] <jepler> probably a detour to drop some packages from debian/control.in that are only required to build pdfs
[08:32:37] <JT-Shop> the only merit I see in having a Getting Started Guide pdf is newbees could download that small pdf to get started getting LinuxCNC
[08:32:39] <jepler> one thing you have in pdf documentatation and not in html is that you can search the whole volume for something, not just the individual chapter
[08:32:57] <JT-Shop> yea, that is a big plus
[08:33:00] <mozmck> It would be nice if there were links in the pdfs. Maybe something like wiki where any time you mention - say halcmd, halcmd would be a link to the section on halcmd.
[08:33:27] <JT-Shop> that can be done if we have a LinuxCNC Manual and everything is in it
[08:33:34] <mozmck> yes
[08:34:14] <JT-Shop> once you have LinuxCNC installed then you have the pdf manual and possibly the html as well
[08:34:18] <JT-Shop> that would be nice
[08:35:34] <JT-Shop> pdf viewer 0.1.8 is terrible IMHO you can't smoothly scroll the pages
[08:36:17] <jepler> linux pdf viewers have been getting worse for years, unfortunately.
[08:36:46] <JT-Shop> yea, back in Ubuntu 8.04 the viewer was nice
[08:36:51] <mozmck> I find evince in *buntu/mint 14.04 to be pretty nice.
[08:37:27] <mozmck> wheezy is years behind - one problem with debian stable imho
[08:37:29] <JT-Shop> I wonder how I can change the default pdf viewer to evince
[08:37:41] <jepler> evince used to be the least worst, but (at least in debian jessie) they've screwed it up.
[08:38:19] <jepler> it draws its own decorations, which created the bug that if you try to click a button but slightly miss, it (un)maximizes the window
[08:38:45] <mozmck> One thing they've done is remove a lot of the configurability it used to have - you can thank the GNOME guys for that again.
[08:39:01] <jepler> and they broke the keystrokes I'd memorized and used for years to display a PDF just like I wanted to (two facing pages, fit height, scroll by pages) so now I have to click to do that
[08:39:16] <JT-Shop> yuck
[08:39:31] <mozmck> I bet the problems in Jessie are related to the GNOME removal of features.
[08:40:06] <archivist> should I do an html search for the docs
[08:40:38] <JT-Shop> how would that work?
[08:41:05] <mozmck> archivist: you mean one that doesn't need the web?
[08:41:23] <archivist> mozmck, can be done
[08:42:10] <mozmck> I'm sure it can - I don't know much about it. I presume there are existing utilities for that?
[08:42:21] <JT-Shop> where directory are the installed pdf docs in?
[08:42:39] <archivist> I hate pdfs by the way :)
[08:44:54] <JT-Shop> where/which
[08:46:50] <JT-Shop> found them
[08:47:53] <JT-Shop> Atril Document Viewer seems to work well
[08:48:05] <JT-Shop> I'm using the Mate desktop
[08:48:20] <mozmck> Ah, it's probably a fork of an older Evince then.
[08:48:45] <JT-Shop> looks as good as the older Ubuntu viewers
[08:49:48] <JT-Shop> the huge advantage to the html docs is the man pages
[08:51:29] <mozmck> It would help if the main page of contents was not so ugly (imo :-) )
[08:53:03] <JT-Shop> which one?
[08:53:03] <mozmck> The pages need links to last page | contents | next page
[08:53:12] <mozmck> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/2.7/html/
[08:53:33] <JT-Shop> we had that and I think it got broken
[08:53:49] <mozmck> ah, I see.
[08:54:43] <JT-Shop> the contents probably needs a style sheet link
[08:55:41] <mozmck> That might help, and Maybe have the sections be links to smaller contents pages so the main page is not so long.
[08:56:44] <JT-Shop> actually now that I think about it having the getting started in the "manual" is a good idea as you only have links to the chapters so having a separate getting started guide is not a update problem
[08:58:28] <JT-Shop> bbl off to the industrial park
[09:12:25] <seb_kuzminsky> i agree it's a problem that the html docs & pdf docs have different contents/layout
[09:13:35] <seb_kuzminsky> i fixed it in the Getting Started document in 2.7, both the html and pdf build from the exact same top-level source file, so they have (and will continue to have) the same contents
[09:14:01] <mozmck> how is the layout of the pdf and html defined?
[09:14:29] <seb_kuzminsky> it'd be a good thing if we did the same to the rest of the top-level documents (the Users', Integrators', and Developer's Manuals)
[09:15:03] <seb_kuzminsky> mozmck: http://git.linuxcnc.org/gitweb?p=linuxcnc.git;a=blob;f=docs/src/getting-started/Getting-Started-with-LinuxCNC.contents.txt;h=949aaef5120c7791dc91fd070bdffaf17693a930;hb=HEAD
[09:15:22] <seb_kuzminsky> that's the asciidoc source file that defines the contents of the Getting Started manual
[09:15:41] <seb_kuzminsky> it's built into html by this file: http://git.linuxcnc.org/gitweb?p=linuxcnc.git;a=blob;f=docs/src/getting-started/index.txt;h=e8e6073071b96c8bc742e6e8a8f14c18a64f317e;hb=HEAD
[09:16:06] <seb_kuzminsky> and into pdf by this one: http://git.linuxcnc.org/gitweb?p=linuxcnc.git;a=blob;f=docs/src/Master_Getting_Started.txt;h=7f523d212aa53c3bde2e22c6cca0cbba2a6891ef;hb=HEAD
[09:16:09] <mozmck> ok, so how do the others have different layouts for html and pdf?
[09:16:45] <seb_kuzminsky> all the pdfs come from docs/src/Master_*.txt
[09:17:07] <seb_kuzminsky> the html for Getting Started is kind of special, in that it's been cleaned up
[09:17:35] <seb_kuzminsky> the html for all the others is in docs/src/index.tmpl: http://git.linuxcnc.org/gitweb?p=linuxcnc.git;a=blob;f=docs/src/index.tmpl;h=588c5d6cfaa8f1000709c850d034d6a627051889;hb=HEAD
[09:18:17] <mozmck> oh
[09:18:48] <seb_kuzminsky> heh yeah
[09:18:59] <seb_kuzminsky> it's all in index.tmpl? oh :-(
[09:19:02] <seb_kuzminsky> ;-)
[09:19:44] <mozmck> :-)
[09:20:48] <mozmck> well, I have to get back to other work. I may work on some of that soon though. It would be nice if it was cleaned up a little more before the release.
[09:21:21] <mozmck> What all needs to be done to release 2.7 now?
[09:22:26] <seb_kuzminsky> we're waiting on an hm2 encoder feature from micges, thats it i think
[09:23:03] <seb_kuzminsky> it would be great if we reorganized the Users Manual for 2.8 so it's consistent between html & pdf
[09:23:19] <mozmck> ok
[10:56:25] <kwallace3> Does anyone recall the website attached to this project? https://raw.githubusercontent.com/rene-dev/rene-dev.github.io/master/IRAMX-drv-v3.3sch.pdf
[11:10:08] <jepler> kwallace3: https://github.com/rene-dev/stmbl ?:
[11:10:43] <kwallace3> Yes, thank you.
[11:12:19] <kwallace3> I also found: http://amerika.ist-wunderbar.com/ , https://github.com/rene-dev?tab=repositories somebody is very busy.
[11:46:22] <JT-Shop> so what is your thoughts on having two pdfs a Getting Started Guide and a LinuxCNC Manual that contains everything?
[11:48:36] <archivist> I see noobs completely overwhelmed by lots of documentation, not sure what is the right way to go
[11:55:55] <jthornton> there is a valid point but the advantage of having unlimited by pdf links is huge
[11:56:44] <archivist> I use the online docs to get that
[11:57:51] <mozmck> It sounds pretty good, because the Getting Started Guide could have the basic stuff and overview that a noob would need.
[11:58:38] <mozmck> The HTML could be better with a little work and a way to search them if installed locally
[11:59:15] <mozmck> Can you have links from one PDF to another? I know you can, but can you do it with our setup?
[11:59:32] <archivist> or a seriously good index built in docbook
[12:00:15] <mozmck> why docbook?
[12:01:13] <archivist> I mean asciidoc
[12:01:42] <mozmck> oh, I see.
[12:08:31] <archivist> one of those, if the index is easy to use, who needs a search
[12:08:47] <archivist> the way you use a real book
[12:49:34] <JT-Shop> mozmck, no you can't have links between pdfs
[12:50:14] <JT-Shop> in our system
[12:53:04] <JT-Shop> archivist, the html links are limited by the pdfs
[12:53:31] <archivist> so drop pdf :)
[12:53:51] <archivist> or change to one pdf
[12:54:05] <archivist> with n sections
[12:54:59] <JT-Shop> that's what I'm talking about having one pdf that contains everything seen on the html
[12:55:06] <JT-Shop> except the man pages :(
[13:34:57] <mozmck> cradek: someone just asked about cradek/joint_axes7 on the list. I haven't yet had time to look at it, but was wondering if that could be a goal to get finished and merged into 2.8?
[15:13:14] <cradek> I would love it if that happened
[15:13:45] <cradek> I'm sorry I left my name on that branch. it's that way because that one is "uh I wonder if this rebase I did for someone is right"
[15:14:20] <cradek> there have been so many big changes since ja was started that problems might have leaked in
[15:14:29] <cradek> I bet it sure could use a fresh look
[15:16:12] <mozmck> I've been swamped here. I just now have a plasma table finished up in my shop, so I can start doing some more testing real soon.
[15:17:40] <jthornton> mozmck, do you have a water table under your plasma?
[15:18:30] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03Norbert Schechner 052.6 90a29a6 06linuxcnc 10src/emc/usr_intf/gmoccapy/gmoccapy.py 10src/emc/usr_intf/gmoccapy/release_notes.txt gmoccapy_1_5_4 - bug in fullsize / edit change * 14http://git.linuxcnc.org/?p=linuxcnc.git;a=commitdiff;h=90a29a6
[15:18:30] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03Norbert Schechner 052.6 4c99175 06linuxcnc Merge branch '2.6' of ssh://norbert@git.linuxcnc.org/git/linuxcnc.git into 2.6 * 14http://git.linuxcnc.org/?p=linuxcnc.git;a=commitdiff;h=4c99175
[15:19:46] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03Norbert Schechner 052.7 388add0 06linuxcnc 10docs/src/gcode/gcode.txt Merge branch '2.6' into 2.7 * 14http://git.linuxcnc.org/?p=linuxcnc.git;a=commitdiff;h=388add0
[15:20:38] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03Norbert Schechner 05master f6cecd5 06linuxcnc Merge branch '2.7' * 14http://git.linuxcnc.org/?p=linuxcnc.git;a=commitdiff;h=f6cecd5
[15:22:17] <mozmck> jthornton: yes, it is a water table
[15:22:23] <mozmck> is that what you have?
[15:27:59] <JT-Shop> yes, do you have the formula for plasma quench?
[15:28:53] <mozmck> I don't even know what that is!
[15:30:49] <mozmck> Oh, for rust prevention? We have never bothered with that but just used water. We will drain it every so often and clean all the junk out.
[15:31:36] <JT-Shop> for 75 gallons you need 1/4lb sodium nitrite powder and some Physan 20
[15:32:04] <mozmck> ah, thanks! I might do that on my table.
[15:32:14] <JT-Shop> when I add make up water I add 1 tea sodium nitrite and 1/8 tea Physan 20
[15:32:57] <JT-Shop> the sodium nitrite keeps the water table and slats from rusting and the Physan 20 keeps you from growing a garden in there
[15:33:07] <JT-Shop> you can get both on flea bay
[15:36:16] <JT-Shop> how much water does your water table hold?
[15:50:39] <mozmck> Sorry, I'm in and out a bit here. I'm not sure how much it holds. It's about 3 inches deep and about 4' x 4'
[15:50:58] <mozmck> So if I wasn't to lazy I could calculate it easily ;-)
[15:51:37] <mozmck> I'm half a mind to take it out and build a down draft box. I have a blower that would work I'm pretty sure.
[15:53:21] <mozmck> I didn't build the table - although I did have to redo some of it. The water tray is under the slats on this one, which makes the water tray pretty ineffective. If I don't do a down-draft setup, I may re-build the water tray to bring the water up close to the metal.
[15:54:04] <jthornton> yea the water needs to be up to the part being cut
[15:54:16] <jthornton> water is much better at catching the dust than air
[15:54:45] <jthornton> my first attempt was below the slats and it didn't take me long to move it up
[15:54:59] <mozmck> Yes. *someone* had an idea to make the water tray slide out the side for cleaning, but did not think it through very well.
[15:55:17] <jthornton> http://gnipsel.com/shop/plasma/plasma-gallery.xhtml
[15:55:59] <jthornton> the water tank below the table is to store the plasma quench, I use a dip tube with a little air to pump the quench up
[15:56:52] <mozmck> That looks nice. I have a gantry kit from http://www.precisionplasmallc.com, but a guy at work made the table base.
[15:57:49] <mozmck> I can put a 3' fan blowing stuff out of the shop, so it may not be too bad for now.
[15:57:55] <jthornton> I built it from scratch, it was my first emc project when I finally got linux to load on a computer
[15:58:03] <mozmck> Nice!
[15:58:22] <mozmck> I've had a router running emc for several years - but don't get time to do much with it.
[15:58:51] <mozmck> I router some banjo pieces now and again and have made aluminum plates for a friend's business.
[15:58:57] <jthornton> looks like a nice gantry
[15:59:27] <mozmck> It is very nice.
[16:00:07] <mozmck> I have the HDG model
[16:00:43] <jthornton> did you get the floating torch mount?
[16:01:40] <mozmck> Yes, it is pretty nice.
[16:01:56] <jthornton> does it have a touch off switch?
[16:02:01] <mozmck> has a little micro switch mounted in a milled out area in the back
[16:02:20] <mozmck> it only moves about 1/8" altogether.
[16:02:53] <mozmck> We make an ohmic touch sensor, so the switch will only be used for backup. Normally we hook it up as a limit switch
[16:02:53] <jthornton> similar to mine then, I have a touch off sub that moves down and finds the top of the material, sets Z0 then moves up to pierce height
[16:03:11] <jthornton> ok
[16:03:15] <jthornton> gotta run again
[16:03:19] <mozmck> Ok, me too.
[16:16:11] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03Norbert Schechner 052.6 1b73f0e 06linuxcnc 10src/emc/usr_intf/gmoccapy/gmoccapy.glade 10src/emc/usr_intf/gmoccapy/gmoccapy.py 10src/emc/usr_intf/gmoccapy/release_notes.txt gmoccapy_1_5_4_1 - new place for full size preview button * 14http://git.linuxcnc.org/?p=linuxcnc.git;a=commitdiff;h=1b73f0e
[16:16:34] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03Norbert Schechner 052.7 a23e990 06linuxcnc Merge branch '2.6' into 2.7 * 14http://git.linuxcnc.org/?p=linuxcnc.git;a=commitdiff;h=a23e990
[16:16:55] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03Norbert Schechner 05master 14af9d8 06linuxcnc Merge branch '2.7' * 14http://git.linuxcnc.org/?p=linuxcnc.git;a=commitdiff;h=14af9d8
[16:23:04] * JT-Shop wonders if you can make a cron job to get a git checkout?
[16:32:56] <jepler> I have some cron jobs like this: 58 * * * * cd .... && git fetch
[16:33:06] <jepler> 58 minutes after each hour, cd to a git repository and fetch
[16:41:17] <JT-Shop> thanks
[16:43:36] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03Norbert Schechner 052.6 8676c92 06linuxcnc 10lib/python/hal_glib.py hal_glip - do not emit signal file changed on remap * 14http://git.linuxcnc.org/?p=linuxcnc.git;a=commitdiff;h=8676c92
[16:43:56] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03Norbert Schechner 052.7 fde52dc 06linuxcnc Merge branch '2.6' into 2.7 * 14http://git.linuxcnc.org/?p=linuxcnc.git;a=commitdiff;h=fde52dc
[16:44:17] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03Norbert Schechner 05master e743793 06linuxcnc Merge branch '2.7' * 14http://git.linuxcnc.org/?p=linuxcnc.git;a=commitdiff;h=e743793
[16:44:42] <JT-Shop> I remember now, I used uGet
[16:45:04] <JT-Shop> but that may not work for git clone
[18:00:02] <tinkerer> cradek: any news on the pluto front?
[20:13:18] <mozmck> pcw_home: how do I set up a gantry with 2 motors using the pid stepper setup?
[20:14:35] <PCW> not sure the PID makes any particular difference
[20:14:41] <mozmck> Do I use the same PID for both motors/stepgens?
[20:15:10] <PCW> I would use a PID per
[20:15:47] <PCW> are you using gantrykins or jusy driving both from the same position command?
[20:15:54] <PCW> just
[20:16:05] <mozmck> I guess I don't understand the setup well enough.
[20:16:26] <mozmck> I'm trying to use trivkins right now, and drive both from the same position command
[20:17:53] <PCW> OK so you might get away with one PID in that case but I would still use two
[20:18:34] <mozmck> there is this net: net emcmot.01.pos-cmd axis.1.motor-pos-cmd => pid.1.command
[20:19:24] <PCW> yeah wire that to the slaved PID command input also
[20:19:48] <mozmck> have to run for right now, I'll study on this more, and probably ask for help later - thanks
[20:20:34] <PCW> the reason I'm queasy about one PID is that they are still small differences that can accumulate position errors
[20:21:14] <PCW> (one is the fact that one stepgens velocity is always written a tiny bit later that the others)
[20:21:42] <PCW> so better to servo that put with individual PIDs
[20:21:48] <PCW> that out