#garfield Logs
Mar 01 2020
#garfield Calendar
12:43 AM rue_mohr: Tom_L, are you still up?
12:48 AM rue_mohr: http://ruemohr.org/~ircjunk/projects/cnc6/p1150377.jpg
12:48 AM rue_mohr: http://ruemohr.org/~ircjunk/projects/cnc6/p1150378.jpg
12:48 AM rue_mohr: http://ruemohr.org/~ircjunk/projects/cnc6/p1150379.jpg
03:04 AM polprog: ive seen refillable steadlter pens, but ive never seen the ink in a store
03:06 AM rue_shop1: hey, aren't you in germany?
03:07 AM polprog: no, but im close
03:07 AM rue_shop1: hmmmm
03:07 AM polprog: well, closer than you ;)
03:07 AM rue_shop1: can you inquire about buying the refill kits?
03:07 AM rue_shop1: they told me they would not sell them to me cause I'm in canada
03:07 AM rue_shop1: and that it would arrive dry and I would complain
03:08 AM polprog: i may take a look
03:08 AM polprog: i could use a bottle myself..
03:08 AM polprog: i have a 12mm herlitz marker here thats refillable
03:08 AM polprog: i must have been thinking herlitz
03:09 AM polprog: but im sure steadlter sells that on german ebay as well
03:11 AM polprog: https://www.ebay.com/itm/STAEDTLER-Feinschreibertinte-Lumocolor-refill-station-fur-487-17-9/323966344054
03:12 AM polprog: fixing kicad on debian stretch.. ill redo the board in kicad (eagle drives me nuts)
03:12 AM polprog: and i hope ill manage to etch one today!
03:13 AM polprog: my laminate is 90x100mm
03:14 AM polprog: wow, noone is selling these, or any marker refills, in poland
03:14 AM polprog: maybe there will be some at an art shop i know
03:20 AM polprog: https://www.ebay.de/sch/i.html?_odkw=staedlter+atrament&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=staedlter+refill&_sacat=0
03:20 AM rue_shop1: Shipping:
03:20 AM rue_shop1: Does not ship to Canada
03:20 AM rue_shop1: can you ship to canada for me?
03:20 AM rue_shop1: :D
03:21 AM rue_shop1: motor driver is passing tests so far
03:26 AM polprog: i guess i could :D
03:26 AM polprog: ffs kicad lost all its footprints
03:30 AM polprog: ok, it found them
03:37 AM rue_mohr: ?
03:45 AM polprog: the footprints
03:54 AM rue_mohr: but why did they dissapear
04:04 AM polprog: some issues with updating from 4.0 to 5.0
04:04 AM polprog: it got its paths wrong
04:05 AM rue_mohr: ah
04:12 AM polprog: rue_mohr: whats a good trace width for home etching?
04:13 AM polprog: s/good/minimum
04:13 AM rue_mohr: 25 thou is a new fine steadtler iirc
04:13 AM rue_mohr: or was it 10 thou
05:21 AM polprog: https://polprog.net/rozne1/ircjunk/5nanos/5nanos_try2_panel.png
05:21 AM polprog: ill try to etch that. 3 pcs nicely fit on my 90x100mm laminate
05:30 AM rue_mohr: what do you have for etching?
05:46 AM polprog: sodium persulfate
05:53 AM rue_mohr: oh yea
05:53 AM rue_mohr: oh no, I mean hardware
05:53 AM rue_mohr: what do you use to do it
05:54 AM polprog: clothes iron.., laser printer
05:54 AM polprog: ive got some paper that allegedly Works Every Time [TM]
05:54 AM polprog: from a guy at our faculty..
05:55 AM rue_mohr: uhu
05:55 AM rue_mohr: toner transfer never worked for me
05:55 AM rue_mohr: but I was using expensive printers with really good fusors
05:56 AM polprog: idk
05:56 AM polprog: you plot on the PCB, ive seen
05:56 AM polprog: any other techniques?
05:56 AM rue_mohr: me and a buddy surmised that if you use a cheap printer with a barely-hot-enough fusor, its would do good at toner transfer
05:57 AM polprog: this is a shite printer and thin, semi glossy paper
05:57 AM rue_mohr: toner transfer didn't work for me
05:57 AM rue_mohr: you might be ok then
05:57 AM rue_mohr: I found toner transfer to be a waste of time
05:57 AM rue_mohr: I can plot pcb's waaay faster with a much lower failure rate
05:57 AM polprog: me too, but ill give it a shot one more time
05:58 AM rue_mohr: I just cant get high resolution
05:58 AM polprog: a plotter could be useful, true
06:00 AM rue_mohr: toner transfer worked for rifraf
06:06 AM polprog: if i could plot or print on foil id go photoresist way
06:07 AM polprog: spray on, expose, etch
06:07 AM polprog: i could maybe even experiment with enlargers, ive got two 35mm ones
06:08 AM polprog: nah thats stupid
06:08 AM polprog: UV lamp + enlarger is quite dangerous...
06:08 AM polprog: okay, lets try to iron on
06:08 AM rue_mohr: yea
06:08 AM rue_mohr: I got some UV nail polish
06:09 AM polprog: i can get actual photoresist in spray
06:10 AM rue_mohr: yup, but $
06:11 AM polprog: yep
06:12 AM rue_mohr: and lots of chemicals
06:12 AM rue_mohr: developers and fixers and stuff
06:12 AM polprog: https://polprog.net/rozne1/ircjunk/5nanos/5nanos_etch1.png
06:12 AM polprog: https://polprog.net/rozne1/ircjunk/5nanos/5nanos_etch2.png
06:12 AM polprog: my first gig
06:12 AM polprog: as a teacher
06:12 AM polprog: not quite long ago
06:12 AM rue_mohr: k
06:12 AM polprog: (not related to pics)
06:12 AM polprog: i was sustituting someone who said they cant come a day earlier
06:12 AM rue_mohr: pre-aligna nd folder over the board, right?
06:13 AM polprog: what?
06:13 AM rue_mohr: you need to align the top and bottom
06:13 AM polprog: not folded
06:13 AM polprog: aligned
06:13 AM polprog: nevermind that teacher story is stupid
06:14 AM rue_mohr: oh you cant stop now
06:14 AM polprog: oh, ok
06:14 AM polprog: so because that was sortof an emergency it was double rate
06:14 AM polprog: i spent 4 hours teaching some people python and linux basics
06:14 AM rue_mohr: cool
06:15 AM polprog: and if you calculate the hourly rate, i should not have even started this PCB making because these are the most expensive PCBs ill probably do
06:15 AM polprog: ;P
06:15 AM polprog: im joking obviously but its 1300 and i started at 10
06:15 AM polprog: well, i made the board from scratch in kicad today as well
06:16 AM polprog: ok, off to steal moms iron
06:16 AM rue_mohr: I can make an already-deisgned pcb in about 15 minutes or less
06:16 AM rue_mohr: :)
06:16 AM polprog: this one took about 45 min
06:16 AM rue_mohr: beats waiting 2 weeks to find out I mirrored 2 mosfets
06:16 AM polprog: including text
06:16 AM polprog: hahaha
06:17 AM rue_mohr: I mean actually etching them
06:17 AM rue_mohr: I might recover that board
06:17 AM rue_mohr: dunno yet
06:18 AM rue_mohr: that was funny tho, I usually dont make mistakes
06:18 AM rue_mohr: its been a LONG time since I did a board
06:19 AM rue_mohr: hahah since when is 2n2222 a transistor series DIGIKEY!
06:27 AM polprog: ok, pressed
06:27 AM polprog: now should i throw it into water or let it cool
06:27 AM polprog: ill let it cool
06:27 AM rue_mohr: your talking to the guy who never got it to work
06:28 AM polprog: well, youve failed more times than i tried so im asking ;)
06:29 AM rue_mohr: I think we let it cool and then soaked it in soapy water
06:29 AM rue_mohr: and super gently rubbed it
06:29 AM rue_mohr: then you get to pick all the clay out of the parts you want to etch
06:29 AM rue_mohr: then you can fix it with a sharpie
06:29 AM rue_mohr: then you can give up, use acetone to clear it all and start again
06:30 AM polprog: yeah
06:30 AM polprog: i figured ill leave it in soap for longer
06:57 AM rue_mohr: ....?
06:57 AM polprog: paper came off mostly but at some points there is a thin layer of fibre
06:57 AM polprog: over the toner
06:58 AM polprog: not sure if the etchant cand deal with that
06:58 AM polprog: so after i looked at it dry, i threw it into the soapy water
06:58 AM polprog: just a moment ago
06:58 AM polprog: ill wait 15 mins now,
06:58 AM polprog: sleep 900; beep -r 10
08:01 AM polprog: ok, this etching process will take loooong
08:38 AM polprog: ok, it etched, time to rub the toner off
08:54 AM X704 is now known as tiwake
08:54 AM polprog: i think i got it
09:17 AM X704 is now known as tiwake
09:18 AM polprog: now to drill the holes
09:24 AM X704 is now known as tiwake
09:33 AM polprog: https://polprog.net/rozne1/ircjunk/5nanos/5nanos_etch10_boardready.png
09:33 AM X704 is now known as tiwake
09:33 AM polprog: https://polprog.net/rozne1/ircjunk/5nanos/5nanos_etch8.png
10:22 AM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/temp/tiny/tinyboard1.jpg
10:22 AM Tom_L: SOT23-6
10:22 AM Tom_L: with 3 traces under it
10:30 AM polprog: i know the picture. impressive!
10:31 AM polprog: very clean edges
10:38 AM polprog: dril'd
10:40 AM polprog: https://polprog.net/rozne1/ircjunk/5nanos/5nanos_etch12_drilled.png
10:48 AM Tom_L: typically when i knew i was gonna hand etch a board i would make the pads bigger since i would be drilling it with no thru hole plating
10:49 AM Tom_L: i had a separate eagle library i'd done just for that
10:55 AM polprog: i should have used the hand soldering footprints for kicad
10:55 AM polprog: that would help drilling
12:14 PM polprog: aaand done
12:29 PM rue_mohr: well, a bit over etched, I wonder how that can be adjusted, was it fresh etchant?
12:38 PM polprog: it was freshly dissolved
12:38 PM polprog: i might have overdone it, at the end i was just wiggling the board in the etchant
12:38 PM polprog: 1 dunk too much
12:38 PM rue_mohr: ah
12:39 PM rue_mohr: bubbles really help
12:39 PM rue_mohr: and heat
12:39 PM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/etching/etch5.jpg
12:39 PM rue_mohr: the longer the board stays in the etchant, the more the resist gets attacked
12:39 PM polprog: but it works! sortof... i had to jump the last ac04, so now the XOR is driving the output directly
12:39 PM rue_mohr: yep
12:39 PM rue_mohr: ooo 2 pipes!, hmmmm
12:40 PM polprog: yeah. i need to build a small tank
12:40 PM polprog: for some reason the xor output was inverted vs what i expected on the schem
12:40 PM rue_mohr: is.... that a copper support for that board?
12:40 PM polprog: looks like insulated wire
12:40 PM polprog: just red
12:40 PM Tom_L: yup
12:40 PM Tom_L: wire
12:41 PM rue_mohr: I use a fishtank heater
12:41 PM polprog: now because the xor is driving the output directly the peaks are only 4v in amplitude. but i put a jumper that switches between 4.5 and 8 ns
12:49 PM rue_mohr: polprog, why are you doing a pulse generator?
12:49 PM polprog: just for fun
12:49 PM rue_mohr: ok
12:50 PM rue_mohr: it looks task oriented :)
12:50 PM Tom_L: i just heat the etchant over the faucet hot water before i start
12:50 PM polprog: im curious how fast can i push cmos jelly bean ICs
12:50 PM rue_mohr: ok
12:51 PM rue_mohr: Tom_L, did you see the motor driver?
12:51 PM polprog: it will also come in handy with testing our uni project, fast counter. but that idea came up later, while i was putting it on the breadboard and saw the peak on the scope
12:51 PM polprog: new photos
12:51 PM polprog: https://polprog.net/rozne1/ircjunk/5nanos/5nanos_pcb.png
12:51 PM Tom_L: yes
12:52 PM polprog: https://polprog.net/rozne1/ircjunk/5nanos/try2_traces.png
12:52 PM rue_mohr: <rue_mohr> http://ruemohr.org/~ircjunk/projects/cnc6/p1150377.jpg
12:52 PM rue_mohr: <rue_mohr> http://ruemohr.org/~ircjunk/projects/cnc6/p1150378.jpg
12:52 PM rue_mohr: <rue_mohr> http://ruemohr.org/~ircjunk/projects/cnc6/p1150379.jpg
12:52 PM rue_mohr: polprog, so, it sped on when etched
12:52 PM Tom_L: looks good, does it work?
12:52 PM polprog: rue_mohr: not really..
12:53 PM polprog: wait
12:53 PM polprog: it actually did
12:53 PM rue_mohr: its wroking great
12:53 PM polprog: it was 5.7ns, now its 4.5
12:53 PM rue_mohr: polprog, when your on a breadboard, you have a lot of extra capacitance going around
12:53 PM polprog: yes
12:53 PM polprog: also, that CNC driver looks very tidy!
12:54 PM rue_mohr: when I was working on my high freq oscs, I had to build them on protoboard to know how they would really behave
12:54 PM rue_mohr: it hit the goal, there are 8 passives, resistors for the fets
12:54 PM rue_mohr: 4 pulldown and 4 series gate
12:54 PM polprog: i wonder if it would be faster if i did it manhattan style
12:54 PM rue_mohr: other than that its all mechanical
12:56 PM rue_mohr: next I need to make the fet driver board
12:56 PM polprog: ill go eat something, and maybe order the images in a html file
12:58 PM polprog: i wonder if putting "Warning: 1 GV/s" would be approriate
12:59 PM rue_mohr: :)
01:00 PM rue_mohr: I'm pondering how I want to do the fpga encoder decoding
01:00 PM rue_mohr: as the fpga doesn't like races
01:05 PM rue_mohr: I didn't finish the mechanical mount piece there either
01:05 PM rue_mohr: its got no holes for mounting to a main heatsink
01:05 PM rue_mohr: but I worked out that I can use the extra two holes I gave it for a heat sensor
01:06 PM rue_mohr: resisting the temptation to etch 5 more of them
01:06 PM Tom_L: do it while it strikes you
01:07 PM rue_mohr: it leads to having 5 boards with a minor problem that makes me unable to use them
01:09 PM rue_mohr: what do you think google is changing about their term of service that makes them want everyone to agree?
02:18 PM rue_mohr: so, I learned things making that updown counter that apply to the encoder interface
02:48 PM polprog: https://polprog.net/rozne1/ircjunk/5nanos/etching.html
02:48 PM polprog: done for today.. i was thinking about debugging my encoder implementation but that will have to wait
02:55 PM rue_mohr: did the red pen work at all?
02:55 PM rue_mohr: I have to use black permanent ink, and only some types work
02:55 PM rue_mohr: heh, heated tank
02:56 PM rue_mohr: my current tank is a breakfast serial storage container
02:56 PM rue_mohr: the dimensions were right
02:56 PM rue_mohr: might be time for a new one tho
02:57 PM Tom_L: ok rue_mohr, i checked target and walmart and neither one have your pens anymore
02:57 PM rue_mohr: huh, thanks for lookin
02:57 PM Tom_L: i don't think BIC makes them anymore
02:57 PM rue_mohr: I dont either
02:57 PM rue_mohr: drat
02:57 PM Tom_L: sharpies do work though
02:58 PM rue_mohr: yes and no
02:58 PM Tom_L: if you get the permanent ink ones
02:58 PM rue_mohr: it the right ink, its the wrong pen
02:58 PM rue_mohr: my plotter cant swing them
02:58 PM rue_mohr: oh ohohohooh
02:58 PM rue_mohr: they make those stubbie ones now!
02:58 PM Tom_L: you have a 3d printer...
02:58 PM Tom_L: also, what about gel pens?
02:58 PM rue_mohr: you know the like 3" sharpies?
02:58 PM Tom_L: yeah
02:59 PM rue_mohr: it has to be the right ink, I'd tried almost every pen available here
02:59 PM rue_mohr: I'll see if I can make a stubbie work
02:59 PM Tom_L: are you clear out of the BICs
02:59 PM Tom_L: ?
02:59 PM rue_mohr: no I only have 2 left
02:59 PM rue_mohr: and I dont know if their ok
03:00 PM rue_mohr: cause their like 15? years old now?
03:00 PM Tom_L: :)
03:00 PM rue_mohr: I'v kept them closed up
03:00 PM Tom_L: when was that?
03:00 PM Tom_L: that i sent them...
03:00 PM rue_mohr: waaay before the house
03:00 PM rue_mohr: back in the hayday
03:00 PM Tom_L: she didn't believe i'd been chatting that long
03:01 PM rue_mohr: ;)
03:01 PM Tom_L: i'll be gone a while next month
03:01 PM Tom_L: don't fret
03:01 PM rue_mohr: np
03:02 PM rue_mohr: if I'd just waited one more day eh?
03:02 PM Tom_L: i may leave things on since someone will be here
03:02 PM Tom_L: yup
03:06 PM rue_mohr: #avr-2012-02-12.html.txt:19:17:09: .......rue_mohr:stedler or bic pens
03:08 PM Tom_L: they did have some stedler art pens but colors
03:08 PM Tom_L: they looked about that size
03:08 PM rue_mohr: the black permanent ones work
03:09 PM rue_mohr: but they dont last as long as those bic ones did, and their more expensive
03:09 PM Tom_L: maybe you can find those
03:09 PM Tom_L: oh
03:09 PM rue_mohr: I can get those yea
03:09 PM rue_mohr: wow, no motivation right now
03:09 PM Tom_L: bic doesn't have a product search on their page
03:09 PM rue_mohr: I should go get some stubbies and try this fet driver I came up with
03:09 PM rue_mohr: yea, its like their not all togethor
03:10 PM Tom_L: they have alot of products though
03:10 PM rue_mohr: as if its a conglomeration
03:10 PM Tom_L: wide variety
03:10 PM rue_mohr: yea
03:12 PM rue_mohr: ugh, the todo list implies I should leave the house
03:13 PM Tom_L: i'm not that motivated today either
03:13 PM Tom_L: i got a whole box full of rubber rollerskate wheels i'm debaiting to save or trash
03:14 PM Tom_L: with bearings
03:14 PM Tom_L: they got wet in the flood though. i'm sure some are bad
03:14 PM rue_mohr: hmm
03:16 PM rue_mohr: I got a voice in my head that wants to do LOTS of things tho
03:17 PM Tom_L: listen to it
03:17 PM rue_mohr: but its listing all new projects
03:17 PM Tom_L: pretty soon you won't be able to
03:17 PM rue_mohr: hmm
03:17 PM Tom_L: just make limits
03:17 PM Tom_L: practical projects only
03:18 PM Tom_L: make them 1day or 1 week to completion
03:18 PM rue_mohr: like a semi-cnc pcb driller?
03:18 PM Tom_L: no more long drawn out ones
03:18 PM Tom_L: they just drag you down
03:18 PM rue_mohr: I'm trying to focus on this cnc
03:18 PM rue_mohr: it'll open things up for me
03:18 PM Tom_L: good call
03:18 PM Tom_L: i did one and i don't regret it
03:18 PM rue_mohr: :)
03:19 PM Tom_L: and i'm even ok with the shit spindle motor cause realistically i won't need more than that
03:21 PM rue_mohr: oh I bet you would enjoy chipping up some heavy steel tho
03:22 PM Tom_L: if i had a project for it
03:23 PM rue_mohr: yea I know that one
03:23 PM rue_mohr: seems to be my primary motivator "not lead project"
03:24 PM rue_mohr: ok, fighting against the wet towel
03:24 PM rue_mohr: I'm going shoppin
03:24 PM rue_mohr: I'm gonna buy something, I dont care what it is
03:25 PM Tom_L: hha
03:25 PM rue_mohr: maybe a tire, maybe a wire, maybe the neighbours kids!
03:25 PM Tom_L: get something useful
03:25 PM rue_mohr: IIIII'm going shoppin...
03:25 PM Tom_L: get a tool you need
03:26 PM Tom_L: stubby sharpies
04:14 PM rue_mohr: wow
04:14 PM rue_mohr: these stubbies are WAY finer than I thought
04:15 PM rue_mohr: if its the right ink, I think they will work great
04:16 PM rue_mohr: http://ruemohr.org/~ircjunk/tempimage/p1150388.jpg
04:19 PM Tom_L: good deal
04:19 PM Tom_L: did they say permanent ink?
04:20 PM Tom_L: i use em to mark metal too instead of metal blue
04:21 PM Tom_L: mark a wide spot about where you want to scribe it then scribe over the ink
04:21 PM rue_mohr: yup, about 25 thou
04:21 PM rue_mohr: cool
04:21 PM rue_mohr: I see the problem
04:21 PM rue_mohr: this chair sucks the energy out of me
04:22 PM rue_mohr: I was fine till I sat down, now I just want to go to sleep
04:22 PM rue_mohr: 315km, $85 in gas
04:22 PM rue_mohr: I hope the next tank is better
04:22 PM Tom_L: ~2.09 here
04:24 PM rue_mohr: thats ~54L
04:24 PM rue_mohr: ok I want to try this fet driver
04:25 PM Tom_L: 4081?
04:32 PM rue_mohr: 8041
04:33 PM rue_mohr: but no, I came up with another transistor circuit
04:33 PM Tom_L: you ever hear from kat anymore?
04:34 PM rue_mohr: no :/
09:31 PM rue_mohr: so
09:31 PM rue_mohr: I guess for the encoder, I was going to go with a state machine
09:32 PM rue_mohr: which means I need a clock for it
09:32 PM rue_mohr: which is a bit annoying
09:34 PM Tom_L: encoders don't always happen when the clock ticks
09:35 PM rue_mohr: but with a clock ticking at 50Mhz, an edge is going to register
09:35 PM rue_mohr: my brain kinda stopped
09:36 PM rue_mohr: I was sorting transistors
09:36 PM Tom_L: do you test them?
09:37 PM rue_mohr: I got a chineese part ID thing
09:37 PM rue_mohr: http://ruemohr.org/~ircjunk/tempimage/p1150394.jpg
09:37 PM rue_mohr: sit down and sort the into NPN, PNP, an other
09:38 PM rue_mohr: got some cool 'others' a number of jfets
09:43 PM Tom_L: what are jfets exactly?
09:43 PM Tom_L: or how do they differ from mosfets
09:44 PM rue_mohr: the gate is not isolated
09:45 PM rue_mohr: they can be used in some unique circuits, like oscillators, but I'v never been able to get my hands on any to make stuff with them
09:46 PM Tom_L: hmm
09:49 PM rue_mohr: they can also be used in some interesting gain-control things with op-amps
09:49 PM rue_mohr: my brain is trying to stop
09:50 PM rue_mohr: and I cant work out what to have it do (what else)
09:50 PM rue_mohr: for the mtoor drier, I'm not sure if I want to put the cntroller on the same board as the fet driver
09:51 PM rue_mohr: Idont think I do, cause the fet pack is a module, and if I have a seperate module for the fet drivers, I can mix as I like
09:51 PM rue_mohr: the fet pack is completely generic