#garfield Logs

Dec 26 2018

07:47 PM rue_shop3: furrywolf, would you have interest in meeting me, tom and z somewhere in the usa between us all?
07:51 PM rue_shop3: zhanx_, you gonna live thru your stomach flu?
07:51 PM Tom_L: too much on my plate to plan anything like that currently
07:51 PM rue_shop3: I'm plasabilitating
07:51 PM Tom_L: i know
07:52 PM Tom_L: i'm lucky to check in here once a day for a brief bit
07:53 PM rue_shop3: so, it would have to be a business trip
07:53 PM rue_shop3: zhanx_,
07:53 PM Tom_L: i don't get those
07:53 PM rue_shop3: furrywolf,
07:54 PM rue_shop3: it'd be a job to circle thru the states, get shot at kats gate.
07:57 PM furrywolf: ?
07:58 PM furrywolf: oh, I missed a bunch of stuff due to people in ##chemistry talking too much
07:58 PM rue_shop3: furrywolf, would you be into meeting us at some midpoint in the states
07:59 PM rue_shop3: rue, tom, zhanx_ ...
07:59 PM rue_shop3: and you, right ahts the 4 I was looking for
07:59 PM furrywolf: I don't have the time and money to travel...
07:59 PM rue_shop3: we might have to peer pressure furrywolf tom, and zhanx_ into it, it'll take some crafty social manipulation
08:00 PM rue_shop3: furrywolf, its ok, nor do tom, zhanx_ or rue
08:00 PM rue_shop3: other than time and money, you in?
08:01 PM * furrywolf isn't a very interesting person
08:01 PM rue_shop3: nor are rue, tom on zhanx_
08:01 PM rue_shop3: other than time, money, and being interesting, you in?
08:02 PM rue_shop3: oh, were not social either
08:02 PM rue_shop3: so?
08:02 PM furrywolf: that too
08:02 PM furrywolf: also, what makes you think I'm anything like how I am online? :P
08:02 PM rue_shop3: none of us are
08:03 PM rue_shop3: ... thats not the point
08:03 PM rue_shop3: ok, lets try this
08:03 PM rue_shop3: furrywolf, this will never happen, but if you had the opportunity, would ya?
08:04 PM Tom_L: it would be an odd meet for sure
08:05 PM rue_shop3: indeed, we could play the "figure out who is who" game
08:05 PM rue_shop3: :D
08:05 PM Tom_L: i can chat about cnc all day but going to a fest i felt out of place really
08:05 PM Tom_L: i know who you are :D
08:05 PM Tom_L: z would be easy to figure too
08:06 PM rue_shop3: :)
08:06 PM * furrywolf is attempting to think about roof truss designs, and failing miserably
08:06 PM * rue_shop3 looks at rue_mohr
08:06 PM rue_shop3: I'm not sure we know who is who
08:06 PM Tom_L: furrywolf what rise/run?
08:06 PM rue_shop3: furrywolf, what span?
08:06 PM rue_shop3: :)
08:07 PM rue_shop3: furrywolf, cmon, say if you lived a different life you would be game to meet up
08:08 PM Tom_L: rue is looking for some encouragement here i feel
08:08 PM furrywolf: Tom_L: 4/12 to 6/12 probably, 25ft probably. that's the easy part. it's making it the shape I want that's the hard part. :P
08:08 PM Tom_L: why?
08:08 PM Tom_L: non standard truss?
08:09 PM rue_shop3: flat or vaulted bottom?
08:09 PM Tom_L: i used 4/12 on my garage which is 24'
08:09 PM furrywolf: I want a cathedral-like roof, with a rafter tie around 1/2 way up the rafters, while current code requires it within the bottom third unless you're using a truss. I also want an open area above these ties, without crossing beams like would be found in a scissors truss.
08:10 PM furrywolf: my current thinking is a design that's partially truss and partially based on bending strength of the rafters...
08:11 PM * furrywolf ASCIIs. sec.
08:11 PM rue_shop3: the rafter tie could be a fake
08:11 PM rue_shop3: and use ...
08:13 PM Tom_L: https://www.selecttrusses.com/truss-calculator/
08:13 PM rue_shop3: http://www.jji-joists.co.uk/images/uploads/slideshow/joistfloor_homepage.jpg
08:13 PM furrywolf: ^
08:13 PM furrywolf: / \
08:13 PM furrywolf: /,|___|.\
08:13 PM furrywolf: /,' `.\
08:13 PM furrywolf: | |
08:13 PM furrywolf: |_____________|
08:13 PM furrywolf: | |
08:13 PM furrywolf: yay shitty ascii art.
08:13 PM Tom_L: i knew what you were after
08:13 PM Tom_L: i did a barn shed once
08:14 PM Tom_L: that's sorta what you want
08:14 PM Tom_L: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ul_9GmqBbc
08:15 PM Tom_L: i did one like that once
08:15 PM furrywolf: it would be the second story of a 1.5-story structure. the side walls would only be 4-5ft tall. the rafter tie would need to be 8ft off the floor to provide adequate head room, in the middle of the room.
08:15 PM furrywolf: I could always go for a steeper pitch, which would move the code 1/3rd limit further up
08:15 PM Tom_L: and i had overhead storage on each side of the entrance on the left and right sides
08:16 PM Tom_L: picture entering the side of a barn instead of the end
08:16 PM Tom_L: how do they feel about barn roofs there?
08:17 PM furrywolf: same code as residences
08:17 PM Tom_L: https://www.easyrafters.com/Roofs/gambrel
08:18 PM furrywolf: the plan in that video is not remotely to code
08:18 PM Tom_L: no, it's for a shed
08:18 PM Tom_L: i knew that
08:18 PM furrywolf: a rafter tie or ceiling joist is _required_. you can't use plywood gussets and pretend your gambrel isn't going to go splat.
08:18 PM Tom_L: but just portraying an idea
08:18 PM furrywolf: also, they're using OSB for gussets?! that's not just illegal, that's idiotic.
08:19 PM furrywolf: also, I'm not trying to build a gambrel, nor do I want one.
08:20 PM furrywolf: OSB gussets... good god that's one of the stupidest ideas I've ever seen.
08:21 PM furrywolf: that puts the OSB entirely under tension. you should be using hardwood plywood for that. OSB does not do well under tension, especially on roofs. it pulls apart.
08:22 PM Tom_L: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOO3M8LTJmU
08:22 PM Tom_L: i think you want something more similar to that
08:22 PM Tom_L: i have no sound so i'm ignoring the human
08:24 PM furrywolf: grrr, firefox needs to be restarted.
08:25 PM furrywolf: that looks like a king scissor truss. again, I want an open space in the middle.
08:25 PM furrywolf: or maybe it's a queen scissor. I don't remember.
08:25 PM Tom_L: http://www.nzdl.org/gsdlmod?e=d-00000-00---off-0cdl--00-0----0-10-0---0---0direct-10---4-------0-1l--11-en-50---20-help---00-0-1-00-0--4----0-0-11-10-0utfZz-8-00&cl=CL2.18&d=HASH018da78ecdae2da0d3f516df.3&gt=1
08:25 PM Tom_L: odd looking link
08:25 PM furrywolf: or maybe it does have an open space. still watching.
08:26 PM Tom_L: your rules say you need a board across the bottom right?
08:26 PM rue_shop3: 4mm balls, -17% $1.15/100pcs, shipping $79.33 $80.48
08:26 PM furrywolf: he's still fucking blathering, and has not shown a single fucking plan view of the truss
08:26 PM rue_shop3: aliexpress is as bad as ebay now
08:27 PM Tom_L: furrywolf, no plans there just the idea of the truss
08:27 PM Tom_L: i could care less what he's got to say
08:27 PM furrywolf: it looks like that truss is very similar to the ascii art I pasted. :P
08:27 PM rue_shop3: it looks like all canadian shipping went up to $80
08:29 PM Tom_L: they never really show a good pic of it
08:29 PM furrywolf: the video was entirely useless.
08:30 PM Tom_L: yeah i was after one snapshot
08:30 PM furrywolf: he blathers about what a great design it is... NEVER SHOWING THE DESIGN.
08:30 PM Tom_L: i skipped thru it real quick
08:31 PM furrywolf: I think the overall idea of that truss is very similar to my ascii art
08:32 PM furrywolf: it allows a closer angle between the ceiling and the roof than mine, but requires a lot more complex joints.
08:33 PM furrywolf: that long ugly url has no relevant information
08:35 PM Tom_L: yeah, hard to find anything worth while
08:37 PM furrywolf: code requires a rafter tie in the bottom third of the rafter unless you use a truss design. if it's higher up (they used to allow 2/3rds), the tension on it is too high, and it pulls off the rafters and the roof sags while the walls spread outwards...
08:37 PM rue_shop3: "so make it fake"
08:38 PM furrywolf: that is not a useful piece of text
08:38 PM Tom_L: that's why i asked if it required a bottom board across the truss
08:39 PM rue_shop3: design it to not need it
08:39 PM furrywolf: https://inspectapedia.com/structure/Roof_Framing_126_DJFs.jpg and if you put a tiny little one on top, like I've seen in countless shed roofs, that happens. :)
08:39 PM Tom_L: this from the one that is out of room due to a flat roof
08:40 PM furrywolf: rue_mohr: again, I'm creating a usable space on top of them.
08:40 PM rue_shop3: what I said still applies
08:40 PM furrywolf: and that space needs to start 3-4ft higher than the ends of the truss
08:41 PM furrywolf: what you said still makes NO SENSE WHATSOEVER.
08:41 PM rue_shop3: make a /-\ strucutre and put the /\ structure on top
08:41 PM rue_shop3: yo want to put a floor on the crosses, right?
08:42 PM furrywolf: I want to put a floor on the rafter ties, and the rafter ties need to be 3-4ft above the wall height, which would put them more than the 1/3rd up allowed by code.
08:42 PM rue_shop3: for a 1 peice system
08:42 PM rue_shop3: but if the cross braces are part of a different structure then it doesn't apply
08:43 PM furrywolf: that doesn't even make any sense.
08:43 PM rue_shop3: hmm, wtf is the box your in made out of anyhow...
08:43 PM * rue_shop3 tries again
08:44 PM rue_shop3: ^
08:44 PM rue_shop3: / \
08:44 PM rue_shop3: /,|___|.\
08:44 PM rue_shop3: /,' `.\
08:44 PM rue_shop3: | |
08:44 PM rue_shop3: |_____________|
08:44 PM rue_shop3: | |
08:44 PM rue_shop3: ^ = no.
08:45 PM rue_shop3: ^
08:45 PM rue_shop3: / \
08:45 PM rue_shop3: / \
08:45 PM rue_shop3:
08:45 PM rue_shop3: +
08:45 PM rue_shop3: _________
08:45 PM rue_shop3: /,' `.\
08:45 PM rue_shop3: | |
08:45 PM rue_shop3: |_____________|
08:45 PM rue_shop3: | |
08:45 PM rue_shop3: = does not apply to the truss rule
08:46 PM rue_shop3: its almost just a symantic difference
08:46 PM rue_shop3: following?
08:46 PM * rue_shop3 checks his box knife...
08:46 PM furrywolf: no, because neither structure is acceptable on its own.
08:46 PM furrywolf: and people reviewing plans aren't drooling idiots.
08:47 PM rue_shop3: your saying the lower plan isn't valid?
08:47 PM rue_shop3: blow the + ?
08:47 PM furrywolf: the ----s would need to be a truss system
08:47 PM rue_shop3: I joints
08:47 PM rue_shop3: joists
08:47 PM furrywolf: remember, 25ft span. you can't just string a 2x4 across there
08:48 PM rue_shop3: I joists
08:48 PM furrywolf: I joists aren't used here. they fail due to OSB+moisture.
08:48 PM furrywolf: you use manufactured trusses instead
08:48 PM rue_shop3: http://www.jji-joists.co.uk/images/uploads/slideshow/joistfloor_homepage.jpg
08:48 PM rue_shop3: hmm
08:48 PM furrywolf: yes, I know what an i-joist is. I also know there's a pile of them behind the local truss place because someone ordered them and were told they couldn't use them, and they've been rotting there since. :P
08:49 PM rue_shop3: usually if those I joists are kept in indoor conditions, their fine
08:49 PM furrywolf: to build that, I'd probably need to use a compact floor truss, or a 2x12.
08:50 PM furrywolf: and it's still questionable whether they'd allowed it. it puts pretty bad forces on it and the walls.
08:50 PM rue_shop3: or throw in some steelwork
08:50 PM furrywolf: let me do a less-crappy drawing of my idea...
08:51 PM rue_shop3: well, damnit
08:51 PM rue_shop3: where am I going to get 4mm bearing balls to make my robot body
08:52 PM rue_shop3: hmm I suppose a snotload of #4 machine screws could do it...
08:53 PM rue_shop3: every 20mm
08:54 PM furrywolf: bearing balls and machines screws are not interchangable items
08:54 PM rue_shop3: 12 #4 screws to hold togethor the bearing I have no balls for
08:56 PM furrywolf: http://fw.bushytails.net/tmp/crappy%20truss%2001.png
08:57 PM furrywolf: this would result in the tension being used to pull apart the rafter tie while trying to fold the relatively compact upper triangle inwards, where it can take a lot of strngth
08:58 PM furrywolf: if I ran the short vertical pieces to the peak, that would obviously be stronger, but eliminate the free area
08:59 PM rue_shop3: do you require that the upper peak be open like that?
08:59 PM rue_shop3: ah, k, you want to fault the cieling up to it
08:59 PM Tom_L: for storage yes
09:01 PM furrywolf: storage, and I want to build a cupola/lantern that sticks through the roof, with access from there. a little sunroom, for either plants or wolfies...
09:01 PM furrywolf: as long as I don't make it too long, I can break the roof ridge with headers on either side...
09:02 PM furrywolf: (also, this is why I can't just use a big ridge glulam)
09:03 PM furrywolf: of course, all this is theoretical... I was thinking "if I could build a barn here, how would I do it?".
09:04 PM Tom_L: https://i.ytimg.com/vi/INFQejYEgEI/maxresdefault.jpg
09:05 PM furrywolf: Tom_L: that's awfully spindly. lol
09:05 PM furrywolf: also, it needs a vertical piece between where the lower scissors meet and the ridge to be correct. heh.
09:06 PM furrywolf: oh, that's metal, isn't it?
09:14 PM furrywolf: god I fucking hate firefox.
09:16 PM rue_shop3: and google?
09:16 PM furrywolf: yes
09:16 PM rue_shop3: google with its "huh, you seem to have asked for silly keywords, I'd better show you this other stuff "
09:18 PM rue_shop3: hmm, better to get your arm slit by a #6 or #4 screw head...
09:18 PM rue_shop3: mmm #6
09:23 PM furrywolf: best options I can think of are the truss I designed, or just making the roof pointer so 1/3rd is sufficient height. which is a lot simpler...
09:23 PM furrywolf: pointier
09:23 PM furrywolf: but, I'm trying to keep the building short, hence the short second story in the first place.
09:25 PM rue_shop3: its funny
09:26 PM rue_shop3: the wars were all fought to retain the rights to live in the home country, to own a house/home
09:26 PM rue_shop3: if todays population were called to a war, nobody would want to bother, the place your renting isn't worth it
09:27 PM furrywolf: heh
09:28 PM rue_shop3: "is the place your living now, worth risking your life to keep?"
09:28 PM rue_shop3: "what if they theatened to burn down your church?"
09:29 PM rue_shop3: hmmmm I dont know if my 3d printer is gonna be able to print this...
09:30 PM furrywolf: is it printing me a barn? :P
09:30 PM rue_shop3: I suppose thru all time, society has had a time catching up with itself
09:30 PM rue_shop3: furrywolf, dont have room for one that big right now
09:42 PM Tom_L: i might consider fighting for it, it took my entire life to get this far
09:43 PM Tom_L: opposed to living in a cardboard box on some alley corner somewhere
09:44 PM rue_shop3: awe crap
09:44 PM rue_shop3: I got radius and diameter mixed up again
09:44 PM rue_shop3: part is 2x too big
09:44 PM Tom_L: diameter is the big one
09:44 PM rue_shop3: arg, its that circles are entered by radius
09:45 PM rue_shop3: and every sof often I forget
09:45 PM Tom_L: something is always there to remind you though
09:45 PM rue_shop3: er, nope
09:47 PM Tom_L: ok, i got nothing done but at least i didn't fail at it
09:48 PM * furrywolf failed at life today
09:48 PM furrywolf: got nothing done at all
09:49 PM rue_shop3: you should work on antidepressing things
09:51 PM furrywolf: I've had no energy at all this month... I hate winter so much.
09:53 PM rue_shop3: yea, thts just it, winter
09:53 PM rue_shop3: I'm fighting like all hell to keep my eyes open
09:55 PM Tom_L: i'm not gonna fight that much longer
09:57 PM rue_shop3: ok, origional 3d printer is working on the part
09:57 PM rue_shop3: if it doesn't do that shutdown thing I'v not pinned the source of, I'll have a part to test with