#garfield Logs

Oct 09 2018

06:59 PM zhanx: ok something is wrong again
07:12 PM Tom_L: on your 3d printer?
07:12 PM zhanx: yep
07:12 PM Tom_L: i would try adding some extra caps on the output
07:12 PM zhanx: I think its a mains issue
07:13 PM Tom_L: that could help anyway
07:13 PM zhanx: output is 12vdc, but i had to turn the screen down
07:13 PM zhanx: and the usb when plugged into the laptop wit 12vdc turned on caused the screen to distort
07:14 PM Tom_L: something isn't grounded right
07:15 PM zhanx: least nothing popped this time
07:23 PM Tom_L: are the stepper frames grounded?
07:27 PM zhanx: about to be
07:28 PM zhanx: my brain is dead
07:28 PM zhanx: 9 work orders today
07:29 PM Tom_L: you asked for busy..
07:29 PM Tom_L: :)
07:29 PM zhanx: this is true
07:29 PM zhanx: tomorrow is another one
07:30 PM Tom_L: i didn't have those troubles but i did have noise problems on my sherline until i grounded the frames and used shielded signal wire on everything
07:30 PM zhanx: i grounded all the rods
07:31 PM zhanx: but i guess the motors are next
07:31 PM Tom_L: why the rods?
07:31 PM zhanx: rue said to engineer ground them\
07:31 PM Tom_L: ok
07:31 PM zhanx: so i wire wrapped them all
07:31 PM Tom_L: make sure to star ground it all
07:32 PM zhanx: ?
07:32 PM zhanx: why
07:32 PM Tom_L: ground loops
07:32 PM zhanx: k
07:32 PM zhanx: screw it doing that tomorrow
07:33 PM Tom_L: rue's the printer expert, i'm just going off experience from the mill
07:33 PM Tom_L: my new one has been rock solid from the beginning
07:34 PM Tom_L: i even used shielded power wires to the steppers
07:38 PM zhanx: after this week I might just buy another one
07:39 PM Tom_L: you need to find the one thing that's causing your problems
07:40 PM zhanx: Yep
07:40 PM Tom_L: if you build the next one the same it will act the same :)
07:42 PM zhanx: I need a ups
07:43 PM Tom_L: have you monitored the power line?
07:43 PM zhanx: no
07:44 PM Tom_L: probably not that easy but when my bud built his big shop he had 3 phase brought in and had them put a logger on it for a couple weeks
07:46 PM zhanx: dryer is one
07:46 PM zhanx: on
07:46 PM zhanx: that might cause it
08:00 PM zhanx: 106vac input Tom_L
08:00 PM zhanx: dryer off it pops back up
08:11 PM Tom_L: what about another circuit?
08:11 PM Tom_L: although the dryer would cross both legs i believe
08:13 PM Tom_L: those switch psu should cover a fair range of input though
08:13 PM zhanx: 2 circuits in the house reall
08:13 PM zhanx: really
08:14 PM zhanx: since the dryer is 220v it gets them both
08:14 PM Tom_L: yeah
08:18 PM Tom_L: so don't start a long print on wash day
08:18 PM zhanx: or fix it
08:19 PM Tom_L: it's not the main that's dropping rather the individual circuit?
08:19 PM zhanx: i dont know
08:20 PM Tom_L: check the drop at the pannel too then
08:22 PM Tom_L: there was a guy on long time ago in some 3rd world country asking about power issues. come to find out he had EVERYTHING on one circuit on a 14ga wire dropping out around 90v. all the appliances etc and he couldn't figure out why his pc was acting up
08:24 PM zhanx: sadly i could see that happening here
08:25 PM Tom_L: the guy was nuts, frig, hotplate, lights, pc, you name it...
08:26 PM zhanx: this is second time of this crap
08:26 PM zhanx: its a power issue
08:26 PM zhanx: wiring is straight or it would have blown again
08:27 PM Tom_L: very likely
08:29 PM zhanx: fuar
08:29 PM zhanx: fubar
08:29 PM zhanx: harbor touch called me
08:30 PM Tom_L: ?
08:30 PM zhanx: the install i did 3 months ago is all being pulled for no payment to them
08:30 PM zhanx: they want me to pull it
08:30 PM Tom_L: that sucks
08:30 PM Tom_L: on large jobs we get half or so up front
08:31 PM zhanx: this was 4 or so hours on site 3 registers, 8 printers
08:31 PM Tom_L: why didn't they pay?
08:32 PM zhanx: no clue
08:32 PM zhanx: not my job
08:32 PM Tom_L: hmm
08:33 PM zhanx: remember i just a tech not a billing person
08:33 PM Tom_L: was this when you worked for someone else?
08:34 PM zhanx: yep Harbor Touch was the company that contracted the install
08:34 PM Tom_L: ahh i see
08:34 PM Tom_L: are they gonna pay you to remove it?
08:34 PM zhanx: yep small amount and a bonus to pull it
08:35 PM zhanx: I called the owner and let him know i am coming so he can pay it first
08:35 PM Tom_L: better than having to eat it all
08:35 PM zhanx: no they already paid for the install of it
08:35 PM Tom_L: how'd he react?
08:35 PM zhanx: he freaked
08:35 PM zhanx: either way I get paid to show up if he pays on time
08:54 PM Tom_itx: dammit
08:54 PM Tom_itx is now known as Tom_L
08:54 PM zhanx: wb Tom_L
08:54 PM rue_mohr: rb....
08:55 PM rue_mohr: write? right..
08:55 PM Tom_L: had to reboot the router too
08:55 PM zhanx: ok rue game plan the fault
08:55 PM zhanx: white board is cleaned off
08:55 PM Tom_L: so who's fault is it?
08:55 PM zhanx: i bet yours but i have to test first Tom_L
08:56 PM rue_mohr: question 1, did the power supply fault from overload
08:56 PM zhanx: no
08:56 PM rue_mohr: question 2, what is the source of the 5V supply running the arduino
08:56 PM zhanx: multi says its at 12vdc
08:56 PM zhanx: pc
08:57 PM rue_mohr: is there an arduino power light?
08:57 PM zhanx: pc also now has screen issues when plugged in
08:57 PM zhanx: yes
08:57 PM rue_mohr: what is the voltage on the 5V of the arduino
08:57 PM zhanx: screen issues for both power supplies
08:57 PM rue_mohr: 4.5? 5.0 5.1 12?
08:57 PM zhanx: 4.98vdc
08:58 PM rue_mohr: its a laptop?
08:58 PM zhanx: yep
08:58 PM rue_mohr: printer idle, what is the current on the 12v supply
08:59 PM zhanx: I can't test that
08:59 PM zhanx: no amp meter
08:59 PM rue_mohr: ok, turn 12V off
08:59 PM zhanx: it was stolen
08:59 PM zhanx: 12v off the pc sees i
08:59 PM zhanx: it
08:59 PM rue_mohr: avr still has power, right?
08:59 PM zhanx: on the pc faults
08:59 PM rue_mohr: 12V off, no 12V power at all
08:59 PM rue_mohr: on the printer
08:59 PM rue_mohr: right?
08:59 PM zhanx: correct
09:00 PM rue_mohr: avr still has power?
09:00 PM rue_mohr: (5V from usb)
09:00 PM zhanx: with 12v on the pc can't see it and the screen is messed up
09:00 PM rue_mohr: 12V off
09:00 PM zhanx: with 5v power the pc sees it
09:00 PM rue_mohr: leave the 12V off
09:00 PM rue_mohr: usb power?
09:00 PM zhanx: yes
09:00 PM rue_mohr: ok, the avr has power and responds to serial comms?
09:01 PM zhanx: yes
09:01 PM rue_mohr: ok
09:01 PM zhanx: nothing is burnt up this time yet
09:01 PM rue_mohr: did you connect the Vin pin on the avr?
09:01 PM zhanx: no
09:01 PM rue_mohr: (is the avr fed 12V)
09:01 PM zhanx: i just plugged in boards
09:02 PM rue_mohr: ok, so the usb power is the ONLY power for the avr
09:02 PM zhanx: it worked all weekend
09:02 PM rue_mohr: ok, so the usb power is the ONLY power for the avr
09:02 PM rue_mohr: ?
09:02 PM zhanx: ok usb is powered on
09:02 PM zhanx: next?
09:02 PM rue_mohr: and avr responds, right,
09:03 PM rue_mohr: I dont know if I should take a small gamble here
09:03 PM rue_mohr: ok, do this
09:03 PM rue_mohr: do you have a 5V supply around? other than a usb port?
09:03 PM zhanx: usb responds
09:03 PM rue_mohr: do you have a 5V supply around? other than a usb port?
09:03 PM zhanx: its the 12v
09:03 PM rue_mohr: no
09:03 PM zhanx: I do
09:03 PM rue_mohr: 5V
09:03 PM rue_mohr: ok
09:04 PM rue_mohr: get 5V supply, remove 12V, unplug usb, apply 5V to 12V rail
09:04 PM rue_mohr: got 'er?
09:04 PM rue_mohr: I want you to power the 12V with 5v, but have the usb disconnected
09:04 PM rue_mohr: and I want to know if the 5V power led on the arduino lights up
09:04 PM zhanx: doing booted off 5v not pc
09:05 PM rue_mohr: I was supposed to do something for someone...
09:05 PM zhanx: its my 12v supply
09:05 PM zhanx: 5v is working
09:05 PM rue_mohr: no wait
09:06 PM rue_mohr: ok, so you put 5V on the 12V rail, and the avr lit up?
09:06 PM zhanx: yes
09:06 PM rue_mohr: ok, DONT APPLY 12V!
09:06 PM rue_mohr: measure the 5V rail on the arduino
09:06 PM zhanx: i dont need more magic smoke
09:06 PM zhanx: for?
09:06 PM rue_mohr: with only a 5V supply on the 12V rail and no usb connected
09:07 PM rue_mohr: becasue there is a bridge regulator, and if you did what I said, its shorted
09:07 PM zhanx: so i got junk again?
09:07 PM rue_mohr: not so much
09:07 PM rue_mohr: ok, just to check
09:07 PM rue_mohr: - no usb connected
09:07 PM rue_mohr: - 5V applied to the 12V rail
09:07 PM rue_mohr: - avr is running
09:08 PM rue_mohr: ?
09:08 PM rue_mohr: last one is a result
09:08 PM zhanx: yea it does not turn on
09:08 PM rue_mohr: oh its not running
09:08 PM rue_mohr: I'm gonna try again
09:08 PM rue_mohr: - the usb is not connected
09:08 PM zhanx: i am not ten
09:08 PM rue_mohr: - you have a 5V supply applied to the 12V of the board
09:09 PM zhanx: 5v 2 amps
09:09 PM rue_mohr: the 5V rail on the arduino is ____ ?
09:09 PM rue_mohr: hopefully 0V
09:09 PM zhanx: 0v
09:09 PM rue_mohr: sorry, your answers keep flipflopping
09:09 PM rue_mohr: ok yay!
09:09 PM rue_mohr: thats what we want
09:09 PM zhanx: ok stop
09:10 PM zhanx: i need the end goal so i know the testing reasons
09:10 PM rue_mohr: ok
09:10 PM rue_mohr: that was a test to know if there is a hidden regulator from the 12V rail to the 5V rail, both feeding the arduino and backfeeding the usb
09:10 PM zhanx: thats how i work you know that
09:10 PM zhanx: I think its a burnt motor driver on an axis
09:11 PM rue_mohr: we now know that if there is a regulator, its not shorted
09:11 PM zhanx: k
09:11 PM rue_mohr: we also know there is no hard short from the 5V to the 12V
09:11 PM zhanx: which there was not last time
09:12 PM zhanx: rue_mohr, to be honest living this rural I need a ups line backer
09:12 PM rue_mohr: so, next I want to test if there is one that kicks in at a higher voltage, lets pull the motor drivers, just to be safe, apply 12V, again, no usb power, and see if the avr powers up,
09:12 PM zhanx: k
09:12 PM zhanx: usb unplugged right?
09:13 PM rue_mohr: yes, we want to keep the usb out of the picture
09:13 PM rue_mohr: if I'm right, its being backfed
09:15 PM rue_mohr: (but I'm less worried about the backfeeding and more worried about where its comming from)
09:16 PM rue_mohr: esp if something is feeding 12V directly into the laptop, which is loading/clamping it down to 5V
09:16 PM zhanx: 12v boots no drivers
09:16 PM rue_mohr: so, with no usb, and 12V the avr will power up
09:16 PM rue_mohr: ok, when doing that, whats the avr 5V rail at?
09:16 PM rue_mohr: (is the regultor running high?)
09:17 PM zhanx: yes and no drivers the x axis driver was pulled last and it booted, i tried each one as i pulled it
09:17 PM zhanx: one sec
09:17 PM rue_mohr: if you find its the X axis driver, I'd like you to check the x axis motor for coil shorts to ground
09:17 PM rue_mohr: did you ground your frame?
09:18 PM zhanx: 4.68-4,71 and yes
09:19 PM rue_mohr: odd
09:19 PM zhanx: but i didn't ground the motors
09:19 PM zhanx: oversight on my part
09:19 PM rue_mohr: zhanx> 4.98vdc
09:19 PM zhanx: that was on 5vdc usb
09:20 PM zhanx: on 12vdc it is that
09:20 PM rue_mohr: 4.98 was on usb wasn't it?
09:20 PM zhanx: yes
09:20 PM rue_mohr: <zhanx> 4.68-4,71 and yes <-- thats on 12V tho
09:20 PM zhanx: ok issue is power
09:20 PM rue_mohr: but wait
09:21 PM zhanx: and or grounds
09:21 PM rue_mohr: lets check grounds, from usb- to 12V-
09:21 PM zhanx: cant leads on multi are broken, new ones will be here friday
09:22 PM zhanx: i did say i broke the pos lead sat
09:22 PM rue_mohr: stick, nail solder
09:22 PM rue_mohr: stick <-- nail
09:22 PM rue_mohr: ^ file
09:23 PM zhanx: FOOT
09:23 PM rue_mohr: ^ solder - wire
09:23 PM zhanx: STOMP
09:23 PM rue_mohr: ugh
09:23 PM rue_mohr: do you know which old driver board did the X before?
09:24 PM rue_mohr: is it still togethor?
09:24 PM zhanx: no its a power issue and the x axis being pulled and it powered on it means it might be that
09:24 PM zhanx: it is
09:24 PM rue_mohr: ok, I wan tto know if your x motor is killing drivers
09:24 PM zhanx: k
09:24 PM rue_mohr: which could only happen if the leads are mixed up between the A and B coils
09:25 PM rue_mohr: aka one coil goes from A+ to B- and one goes from A- to B+
09:25 PM zhanx: they are not but i can swap the motor
09:25 PM rue_mohr: because, then the current limiting wouldn't work
09:25 PM zhanx: rue i am not 10 hello
09:25 PM Tom_L: but this is rue you're dealing with
09:25 PM rue_mohr: ok, but look at it this way, those are current regulated mtoors
09:25 PM rue_mohr: a short in a coil cant do this
09:26 PM rue_mohr: only a short ebtween the coils
09:26 PM zhanx: no but i killed a motor on this machine also
09:26 PM rue_mohr: which one?
09:26 PM rue_mohr: ...
09:26 PM zhanx: y axis it was a bad one
09:26 PM zhanx: a1-a2 was bad
09:26 PM rue_mohr: but these were motors from old working, retired printers?
09:26 PM zhanx: yep
09:27 PM zhanx: z axis are new ones
09:27 PM rue_mohr: I have never had a bad scavanged motor
09:27 PM rue_mohr: I really suspect you crossed a wire
09:27 PM rue_mohr: doesn't mean I'm right
09:28 PM rue_mohr: but I'm talking 0% failure
09:28 PM rue_mohr: your sitting, if were right, at about 50% failure
09:28 PM zhanx: rue_mohr, no, i stepped through this build the second time with heat shrink
09:28 PM zhanx: 85%
09:28 PM rue_mohr: and you couldn't meter out the motors from the driver connector cause of no meter...
09:28 PM rue_mohr: right?
09:29 PM rue_mohr: mmm
09:29 PM zhanx: right but, only because i am unable to measure amp draw
09:29 PM rue_mohr: tell ya what, your greenlee toner has a continuty mode where it beeps
09:29 PM zhanx: but it if was wifi I have a great new toy
09:30 PM rue_mohr: how about grab your toner sender and we use the continity mode to test the mtoor coils from the connector
09:30 PM zhanx: ok
09:30 PM rue_mohr: make sure they are across the A and B outputs right
09:30 PM zhanx: shit that is new
09:30 PM rue_mohr: is new?
09:31 PM zhanx: toner for motors
09:31 PM rue_mohr: continuty tetser :)
09:31 PM rue_mohr: its my double-fallback at work
09:31 PM zhanx: i did that with my fluke
09:31 PM zhanx: they passed
09:31 PM rue_mohr: bugger
09:32 PM zhanx: 1-2, 3-4. grounds to case etc
09:32 PM rue_mohr: > < "send me your burned out drivers"
09:32 PM rue_mohr: hmmmmmmm
09:32 PM zhanx: i will
09:33 PM rue_mohr: I want to autopsy them
09:33 PM rue_mohr: hey, did you get the encoder wheels?
09:33 PM zhanx: you can have them, i need to be over the us canada bridge tomorrow anyways
09:33 PM zhanx: not yet
09:34 PM rue_mohr: oooh
09:34 PM zhanx: i am working at a discount for canada tomorrow
09:34 PM Tom_L: rue_mohr, plastic or metal ones?
09:34 PM rue_mohr: I'm buuring to know whats failing zhanx
09:34 PM rue_mohr: metal
09:34 PM rue_mohr: sent him a few
09:34 PM Tom_L: :)
09:34 PM rue_mohr: not the bad one
09:34 PM zhanx: rue same here
09:34 PM zhanx: i have 9
09:34 PM rue_mohr: only 7:30 and its pitch black out
09:35 PM rue_mohr: zhanx, if you have a breadboard, we can make a test board?
09:35 PM zhanx: Tim Hortons loves us techs over canadain ones
09:35 PM rue_mohr: that would be preferable
09:35 PM zhanx: I do
09:35 PM rue_mohr: ok, well
09:35 PM rue_mohr: shall we make one of those then?
09:36 PM rue_mohr: have a low power 12V adapter?
09:36 PM rue_mohr: aka, a short wont kill anything
09:36 PM zhanx: i would have to look
09:36 PM zhanx: i should have a 500ma 12vdc somewhere
09:37 PM zhanx: its weird the fan works
09:37 PM zhanx: is 12vdc and its plugged into 5vdc
09:37 PM rue_mohr: !?
09:38 PM Tom_L: maybe this is why the last fan failed?
09:39 PM zhanx: then why would it run all weekend and die when unplugged
09:40 PM Tom_L: we are currently diagnosing that
09:40 PM Tom_L: err you are..
09:41 PM zhanx: i really think i need line conditioning
09:41 PM Tom_L: i might suggest you don't use it until you figure it out though
09:41 PM zhanx: i am not
09:42 PM rue_mohr: are we building a tester, you need a 12V and 5V supply that will just duck out if shorted