#garfield Logs

Jan 11 2014

00:10 katsmeow-afk add a 1" layer of concrete on the roof?
00:11 rue_shop3 there is already like 12" of insulation
00:12 katsmeow-afk but insulation isn't sound proofing, it has no inertia
00:12 rue_shop3 I used R-stupidly-high
00:16 katsmeow-afk if yu covered the roof with wood chips, it will also quiet it
00:16 katsmeow-afk or hay bales, but the weight will go *way* up as the bales soak up water, and they will make for unhealthy rot spores eventually
00:26 rue_shop3 .... yea...
00:29 rue_shop3 rue, get a lifetime supply of 14pin sockets
00:30 katsmeow-afk rue, get a lifetime supply of 16 or 18 or 20, because you can shorten any of thse to be 14's or 8's
00:32 katsmeow-afk bandsaw, belt sander table, dremel cutoff disc, file, whatever
00:35 rue_shop3 ha, cause they dont have continious crossmembers
00:35 rue_shop3 (na)
00:35 rue_shop3 they aren't expensive
00:36 rue_shop3 kat, whats your favoite methods to attached a peice of plate to the side of a pipe?
00:36 rue_shop3 lay it into angle iron for the transition?
00:36 rue_shop3 any non-welding methods?
00:37 katsmeow-afk big U bolts ?
00:37 rue_shop3 hahsaha I totally didn't think of that!
00:38 rue_shop3 wow, thats a lot of water
00:38 rue_shop3 yard is gonna be goop for a long time
00:41 rue_shop3 kat, did i reject, (at the time) the idea of using a max232 for driving a fet?
00:41 katsmeow-afk i don't remember
00:41 rue_shop3 oh
00:41 rue_shop3 I mean, its not idea, there must be a transmitter-only version
00:41 rue_shop3 and that could be expanded with some 1488 or 1489 (cant remember which is which)
00:42 katsmeow-afk http://designerthinking.com/images/littleboat/h%29%20folded%20front.jpg <<== 16" U straps with allthread welded to the ends, holding pontoons to bottom of flat deck
00:43 rue_shop3 oh I did that to a bearing on a lathe I was making
00:43 rue_shop3 I really liked the way you did the bows on those
00:44 katsmeow-afk http://designerthinking.com/images/littleboat/fresh%20blue%20paint%20-%20unfolded.jpg
00:44 katsmeow-afk those are some seriously fine bows, i agree, they worked out very well in the water
00:45 rue_shop3 did you remove any material or just slit and rework?
00:45 rue_shop3 I'd imagine it might be a fight to turn
00:45 rue_shop3 if loaded
00:46 rue_shop3 did you pop off the tops and bottoms of the tanks beofre you joined them?
00:46 katsmeow-afk http://designerthinking.com/Bow%20Making.html
00:47 katsmeow-afk i popped both ends off one tank, and wedged a 2nd and 3rd tank into the opened ends of it , then made the bows and .. see the webpage
00:48 rue_shop3 I need a come-along
00:49 katsmeow-afk i had to make jigs to fine the very opposites sides of the tanks at both the top and bottom
00:49 katsmeow-afk however, the jig wasn't any more accurate than a seamstress cloth tape measure and a 4ft level
00:51 katsmeow-afk laye the tank horizon on a table where it's easy to get at, wrap the tape at one end, mark where it overlaps, then **without moving the tape** mark at 1/2 the measured diameter
00:51 rue_shop3 its gonna pour rain for the next 360 days
00:51 katsmeow-afk then use a level to level the tank, then use the level to extend the marked lines the length of the tank
00:52 rue_shop3 I was pondering a nice big concrete slab with heavy duty anchors
00:52 rue_shop3 (recessed)
00:52 katsmeow-afk why were you pondering that?
00:52 rue_shop3 the kind you could bend a truck with
00:54 katsmeow-afk that's seriously heavy in concrete, you can do it with a length of heavy steel tubing if you get imaginative
00:55 rue_shop3 6 or 8" of super re-inforced concrete would do
00:55 rue_shop3 rebar the hell out of it
00:56 katsmeow-afk yeas
00:57 rue_shop3 dont know where I can put that tho
00:57 rue_shop3 I could probably hide one on the driveway
00:57 rue_shop3 all hell if its ever in the way tho
00:57 katsmeow-afk if it's in the driveway, you'll always have the driveway blocked
00:57 rue_shop3 I dont think I'd use it that often
00:58 rue_shop3 I could park on it, it'd work ok for that
00:59 rue_shop3 the tent I designed for working on the mecca would not be doing an awesome job of keeping it dry right now
01:01 rue_shop3 I suppose I can put a cutoff disk in the table saw eh?....
01:01 katsmeow-afk yeas
01:13 katsmeow-afk "The Veras 4K memory board kit is available for $74.50 from: ... It can also be purchesed fully socketted, assembled, and tested, for $129.00 from: ..." <<== yeas, 4k bytes, 4096 bytes
01:35 rue_house ohhh hmmm I wan to put some igbt's to play with
01:36 rue_house 2114?
01:36 rue_house or an array of 2111?
01:37 katsmeow-afk me too, a switchersquisher to make 224vdc-160vdc become 115vac
01:37 rue_house http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/Free-Shipping-10PCS-IKW75N60T-IGBT-600V-80A-428W-TO247-3/614856_1569844337.html
01:37 rue_house I'll see if I can find smehting a bit cheaper for playing
01:37 katsmeow-afk good for 30amp continuous, 60amps for a minute, 200amp surge
01:38 katsmeow-afk strangely, i found some 240vac-to-48vdc convertors that no one wanted that were cheaper to buy than the parts in them cost
01:39 rue_house whats the 2n4401 good for amps?
01:39 katsmeow-afk 600ma
01:39 rue_house hmm
01:39 rue_house nothing special than
01:40 rue_house 2sd1616?
01:40 tsmeow-afk asks T
01:40 katsmeow-afk 2SD1616= [!what][!electronics][!device] Material:NPN Si ; Use:SS ; Device:trans. ; Vceo:50V ; Current:1A ; PwrDis:750mW ; Gain:135-600 ; Freq:~160 MHz ; Case:TO-92 SC-43B PA33
01:40 katsmeow-afk 2SD1616A= [!what][!electronics][!device] Material:NPN Si ; Use:SS ; Device:trans. ; Vceo:60V ; Current:1A ; PwrDis:750mW ; Gain:135-600 ; Freq:~160 MHz ; Case:TO-92 SC-43B PA33
01:40 rue_house 1A, hmmm
01:41 rue_house http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/Free-Shipping-100PCS-2SD1616A-2SD1616-D1616-TO-92-NPN/614856_1569944365.html
01:41 rue_house hmm
01:41 katsmeow-afk i would feel iffy going to 1a in a to-92 case, because it's good to only 3/4 watts, and will be damned hot then
01:42 rue_house wonder what vsat is
01:42 rue_house it'd make a big diffrence
01:44 rue_house 0.3V!
01:44 katsmeow-afk someone makes a to-220 case (but 5 or 6 leads) audio poweramp, i forget the name
01:44 rue_house wow, its good for it
01:44 rue_house .75W/.3V = 2.5A
01:45 rue_house ... do I need more transistors...
01:46 rue_house $13/100
01:47 rue_house that 25 motor drivers
01:47 tsmeow-afk useto handle bags of 2n4401/03 in 1000 pcs
01:47 rue_house 25x 1A motor drivers
01:47 katsmeow-afk but atm i still have trouble believeing there is a problem with not good enough cheap mosfet drivers
01:48 rue_house the better ones start ~ 50c ea
01:48 rue_house $2/ motor driver
01:48 rue_house I can make pn2222/2n3906 drivers, 6 transistors for $1.50 ea
01:49 rue_house (H bridge)
01:49 katsmeow-afk 2n3906 are poor motor drivers, i'd expect
01:49 katsmeow-afk 200ma
01:49 rue_house (open collector with pullup, driving a totem pole)
01:49 katsmeow-afk ah, ok
01:49 rue_house but yea
01:50 rue_house if I run those d1616 in common collector for the high side, they would probably still do better
01:50 rue_house but I have a LARGE DRAWR of transistors...
01:52 rue_house http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-shipping-100PCS-BCR1AM-8-BCR1AM-BCR-TO-92-IGBT-Integrated-Gate-Bipolar-Transistor-Low-power/1469375296.html
01:52 rue_house tigger know this?
01:52 katsmeow-afk if i wanted to make new designs to sell, i'd use to-220 (or the smd version) as the finals, and smd for their drivers
01:52 rue_house !!!! 600V 1A
01:52 rue_house to-92
01:52 rue_house !?!?!?!??!?!
01:53 rue_house its a triac tho
01:53 katsmeow-afk yeas, there's common 300v to-92 on ebay, for cheap if you are bottom trrawling
01:54 rue_house http://www.aliexpress.com/item/ZXGD3003E6TA-IC-GATE-DRVR-IGBT-MOSFET-SOT23-6-ZXGD3003E6TA-3003-ZXGD3003-3003E-D3003-GD3003/1488093926.html
01:54 rue_house 35c ea
01:54 katsmeow-afk MPSA92/42 are pnp/npn @ 300v
01:55 katsmeow-afk 2n5551/5401 are npn/pnp @ 160v
01:56 katsmeow-afk 2n5401 / mmbt5401 / kst5401
01:56 katsmeow-afk to-92
01:56 katsmeow-afk or smt
01:57 rue_house http://www.aliexpress.com/item/GT15J301-15J301-power-IGBT-tube/1583865869.html
01:58 rue_house cheap to play with, specs are really un-amazing, but igbt's are good for high voltage,
02:04 rue_house http://www.aliexpress.com/item/H20R1203-cooker-IGBT-power-tube-power-tube/1587665063.html
02:05 rue_house appear to be 20A 1200V
02:05 rue_house cheap enough to play
02:05 katsmeow-afk my brain is off, it just has nusiance scum running
02:05 katsmeow-afk you need 1200v tansistors for something?
02:06 rue_house no I just wna tot play with an igbt
02:06 rue_house but 1200V at even 1A is lots of pwoer
02:06 rue_house the cats are asking me to please go to bed now
02:06 katsmeow-afk but in a 100w package, 1200v is 83ma
02:07 rue_house 1.5Vce?
02:07 katsmeow-afk or higher
02:07 katsmeow-afk ggbt don't saturate
02:08 katsmeow-afk iirc, you can make them with a mosfet and a bipolar
02:08 rue_house 1.8V at 180c
02:08 rue_house er 175c
02:09 katsmeow-afk rule of thumb when using igbt with amperage : put 2x as much money into heatsinks vs igbt
02:09 rue_house lower case disp is 155W
02:09 rue_house 155W/1.7V is more than 20A
02:10 katsmeow-afk ok, but the picture is a lot more wrrysome when you try and pull 20amps at 1200v
02:11 katsmeow-afk (hint : inductors)
02:11 rue_house :)
02:13 tsmeow-afk may sleep any minute now,, which feels odd, cause it's only
02:15 rue_house damnit, that means its midmight here
02:15 katsmeow-afk at 9pm, the wind moved to a SE-to-NW and is S-to-N now, so i expect cleaner air to breathe for the fisrt time in days
02:22 rue_house http://www.aliexpress.com/item/10pcs-ORIGINAL-FGA25N120-FGA25N120ANTD-IGBT-for-Induction-cooker-repair/1579934262.html
02:22 rue_house and slightly better
02:25 tsmeow-afk is going afk to put her feets in the Feet Roa
02:32 katsmeow-afk According to the National Center for Health Statistics, the average newborn's height (length) is approximately 0.5 meters,[1] or a quarter of the diameter of the Death Star thermal exhaust port.
02:32 rue_house heh
02:38 rue_house http://www.aliexpress.com/item/K50t60-ikw50n60t-to-247-50a-600v-fixed-one-pipe-igbt-Original-Factory/1310447559.html
02:38 rue_house whats the continious current rating of the pins?
02:53 rue_house http://husstechlabs.com/support/tutorials/bi-directional-level-shifter/
02:53 rue_house why cant that be 5V logic and 12V gate drive ?
10:37 katsmeow we had weather at 5am
10:39 Tom_itx we did too
10:39 katsmeow rue, according to the schematic, it can be, BUT it's a resistor pullup to +12 and using the fet body diode to pull down,, the resistor is known to be real slow, and the body diode may not survive that much currrent to pull down
10:39 Tom_itx but it was calm weather
10:40 tsmeow takes note of Tom's weather, and gets excited abou
10:40 Tom_itx i wouldn't get that excited
10:40 tsmeow is a habitual overachiever, and appolog
10:41 katsmeow it is ~20f warmer here today than there
10:41 Tom_itx i think it's about 40
10:42 katsmeow i find that a lil odd, because you have had winds from Mexico for a couple days now
10:43 katsmeow if you got no rain, you barely dodged it, it went north of you, and upstate it resembled snow
10:43 Tom_itx 44.6
10:44 Tom_itx sudden warming trend
10:44 katsmeow 60.8 here
10:46 katsmeow wow, 4am today there was a blast of cold air fell outa upper atmosphere from Canada well into Mexico
10:47 Tom_itx damn canadians are sneaky that way
10:47 katsmeow even a piece of Baja was in upper 30's
10:48 katsmeow the "4 corners" area is still iin the low 30's
10:51 tsmeow fondles a heavy brass spring-ball-type check valve and wonders it's lifetime in a diesel fuel injection
10:54 katsmeow won't be any back pressure that i can think of, but it's still a lot of hydraulic hammering
10:54 katsmeow @ 2000rpm, that's 16 open/close per second
10:55 katsmeow in very tiny timeframes
10:55 katsmeow but certainly not much volume
10:55 katsmeow @ 2000rpm, that's 60,000 open/close per hour
10:56 katsmeow if lifetime is 100,000 cycles, changing engine parts every 90 minutes could get annoying
11:01 katsmeow if this sorta thing works, it would put a hell of a dink in diesel injector system prices
11:01 katsmeow surely someone else has thought of this before?
11:33 katsmeow aaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrggggggggggggg
11:40 rue_house maybe use a rotary valve instead
11:41 katsmeow rotary valve instead of a check valve?
11:42 katsmeow i'd need to know when to open it, close it, and have the means to do so
11:42 rue_house oooh
11:43 rue_house well, whats it on?
11:43 rue_house diesel
11:43 katsmeow it's not on yet, but i was thinking of the situation with my 6.5L diesel in the big truck
11:43 rue_house needs a new pump?
11:44 katsmeow it has the older 6.4L non-electronic injector pump, someone put on
11:44 rue_house rue_shop3, test this http://husstechlabs.com/support/tutorials/bi-directional-level-shifter/
11:44 katsmeow so the turbo cannot be used, and it makes no power above 1800 rpm because it cannot breathe or get more fuel
11:45 rue_house what if you put an accumultor on it, the check will just stay open
11:45 katsmeow with only a week of groceries in it, it hasto be floored to keep 65mph up the hills coming home
11:45 rue_house thats not good for a 6.5
11:45 katsmeow err, if the check stays open, it resembles a piece of pipe, what's the point?
11:45 rue_house you should barely need to put weight ont he pedal
11:46 rue_house food, brb
11:46 katsmeow i know, the turbo should kick in at 1500 , but there's no more fuel to burn, so no need for the turbo,,,, but that robs it of 50% of it's power above 1500
11:47 katsmeow i should be able to get several lbs boost at 1800 , but there's no point in boost if there's no more fuel, and the 6.4 pump has no clue, and no way to tell it, to pour on the fuel
11:48 katsmeow so the engine starts starving at 1800, and is flat out anemic at 2200 rpm or 68 mph, and you know you are going downhill if it's doing 70
11:49 katsmeow it's a real hard cutoff of power when the 6.4 injector maxes out
11:50 katsmeow adjusting the 6.4 pump for more fuel makes it spit out more fuel all the time, so it will smoke unless it is getting boost, which is a real bad idea at idle
11:51 rue_house someone replaced the pump or the engine?
11:51 katsmeow so one cure might be to stick the allen wrench in and make it deliver more fuel, then open a bleed valve and dump the excess when my foot isn't on the pedal
11:51 katsmeow the pump
11:51 katsmeow the 6.5 is almost identical to the 6.4 , the pumps interchange, BUT the 6.4 has no electronics on it, so cannot adapt to the use of a turbo
11:51 rue_house how about a really oversized pump and a 2 speed controller
11:52 katsmeow err,, the injector bolts into the engne like a gas engine distributor, yo cannot speed control it
11:52 katsmeow pump-injector-distributor , one unit
11:52 katsmeow cannot separate
11:53 rue_house oooh
11:53 katsmeow plus, the pressure hasto be there to force the fuel into the cylinder, you cannot bleed fuel if the pressure drops, or vice versa
11:53 rue_house how HEAVY IS that truck?
11:53 katsmeow 3500HD, ~9000lbs empty i suspect
11:54 rue_house ugh
11:54 rue_house you need to get more groceries at once
11:54 rue_house :)
11:56 rue_house diesels do batter at higher rpms dont they
11:56 katsmeow 6.4L/6.5L is basically a 390cuin gas engine, the only way to get more power than a 2bbl carb is the turbo and electronic fuel injection,, putting the correct 6.5L system back on the engine will cost me $900 for parts
11:56 rue_house unless you can advertly total someone elses and pick the parts you need up at the wreckers later
11:56 rue_house did I say that!? oops
11:56 katsmeow in the 6.4 the turbo comes on at 1500, gets max boost at 1800, yellow rpm line is 2500, redline is 3000
12:01 rue_house would it be easy to put in if you had it?
12:01 katsmeow 70mph interstate traffic is ~2200 rpm 5th gear
12:01 katsmeow no
12:01 katsmeow it's under the intake manifold, that would haveto be removed
12:01 katsmeow the electronic controller box would need to be patched into the hacked wiring
12:02 rue_house the hack was done before you got it or after, I cant remmeber
12:02 rue_house I just remmeber the axle
12:02 katsmeow before
12:02 katsmeow i didn't do it
12:03 katsmeow the GMC system is prone to failure ,. and at $500 a pop for new controller boxes, it can get pricey
12:05 rue_house 4, 6, or 8 cyl?
12:05 katsmeow so i am thinking if i tap each injector line, run each line tap thru a check valve to isolate each cylinder's fuel pulse, then merge them to one needle valve, then to an actual injector to make for normal back pressure, i can servo the needle valve to control how much fuel is dumped
12:05 katsmeow 8
12:06 katsmeow then all i need do is manually crank the injector pump and bleed off that excess when i don't need it
12:06 rue_house does it pump into 2 cylinders at once?
12:06 katsmeow 1, very much like a car distributor, only it distributes fuel
12:07 rue_house none of the intakes are syncd eh?
12:07 katsmeow it's a 4cycle V8, of course not
12:16 katsmeow noon oclock, i should go outside and do daylite things
14:31 katsmeow-afk the air is fresher, the wind is blowng to the west today, but i am getting real worn out
14:34 rue_house I thought by the time they get to 8 cylinder, they have two firing at the same time
14:35 rue_house because they dont know how to space strokes properly
14:35 katsmeow-afk <blink>
14:35 katsmeow-afk it IS evenly spaced: 4 firings per revolution
14:35 katsmeow-afk every 90 degrees
14:36 rue_house 10 would be tandem firing then
14:36 rue_house 180
14:36 rue_house this keybaord is evil, its dropping keys
14:36 katsmeow-afk only if you made it that way
14:36 katsmeow-afk be a real rough running engine
14:37 rue_house but you can make a compressor by dropping cylinders and retiming an engine
14:37 katsmeow-afk yeas
14:37 rue_house half engine, half compressor
14:37 katsmeow-afk i have heard of humans boring out spark plugs and attaching air hoses to the shell
14:38 rue_house seal the valves and use checks?
14:38 rue_house the trick , as I know it, is to use some cylinders as engine, and use remaining as compresssor
14:38 katsmeow-afk a check in the shell, as close into the cyl as possible
14:39 katsmeow-afk yeas, and you may not get much air pressure
14:39 katsmeow-afk 80psi or so
14:39 rue_house but the VOLUME!
14:39 rue_house prolly work for sandblasting
14:39 rue_house I need a sandblasting solution
14:39 rue_house my copressor cant keep up
14:39 katsmeow-afk 1) the spark plug isn't large enough bore to get all the air out 2) all you *can* get is the peak engine compression anyhow
14:39 rue_house I need to find a huge tank or soemthing
14:40 rue_house I need a room to put chairs in
14:41 rue_house arg, I have to eart and run
14:41 katsmeow-afk if you can get an inline 6, cut the intake and exhaust manifolds off two end cylinders, and bolt on your own air compressor intake and exhaust with check valves, eliminate the oem valves, then you got something
14:41 katsmeow-afk hot water tank holds 100psi
14:42 katsmeow-afk however, they are thin, so i wouldn't put one inside, and i wouldn't put it where it detonating would hurt anything
14:42 katsmeow-afk the air and the pressure isn't a problem for them, but rusting thru is
14:44 rue_house I think the hydrotest on propane tanks is like 500+ psi
14:45 tsmeow-afk ponders a 6cyl 120hp engine, eliminating 2 cylinders, which reduces the hp to 80hp, you'd have two 3" pistons with 3" stroke at 3600rpm, 1.25" ports, with the original 80hp driving
14:46 katsmeow-afk below 100 the hot water tanks are ok too, the problem is propane tanks cost money, but the thicker metal won't rip apart if there is a rust-thru
14:46 rue_house 80hp is a lot of air
14:46 katsmeow-afk yeas, but likewise you don't have such an engine anyhow
14:46 rue_house I think I know where to get tanks that aren't worthy anymore
14:46 rue_house I know a guy who does recert
14:47 katsmeow-afk certs are good if you think you may need your homeowners ins to cover damages from one
14:49 katsmeow-afk i still have the 280's inline-6 engine, the Cougar's V6, a scrap V6, a couple inline-4 engines
14:50 katsmeow-afk "Project could revive deer on reservation land" <<== is deer passing out on reservation land a big issue?
14:52 katsmeow-afk "The sprawling Eastern Band of Cherokee Indian reservation in the western part of North Carolina has been trying for years to bring back a cultural symbol: White-tailed deer." <<== but the white people's gov keeps giving the white people permits to shoot the white-tails
14:53 rue_house http://www.propanecouncil.org/uploadedFiles/Council/Research_and_Development/REP_10202_Battelle_Cylinder_Report_Final.pdf
14:53 rue_house you would get a kick out of that!
14:54 rue_house arg, I ahve to got
14:54 katsmeow-afk can i read it later tonite, after i run out of sunlight?
14:54 rue_house yea, its about quality of propane tanks
14:54 katsmeow-afk k, have funs
14:54 rue_house there are a lot of OOO! :S in it
14:55 rue_house but according to it, a typical tank is good to 240 atleast
16:24 rue_shop3 dare I put 150V of leds in series and run them off mains with minimal current limiting?
16:24 rue_shop3 huh, it would be about 1A
16:24 rue_shop3 delta 20V
16:24 rue_shop3 could almost use a linear current source on those
17:01 rue_shop3 kat, if I gut theis flourescent light fixutre, and put a laptop supply in it, and put in 4 series by 5 parallel (4s5p) led array, I can... well it'll work
17:03 rue_shop3 the steel toe just fell outa my shoe...
17:03 rue_shop3 never had that happen before
17:33 katsmeow-afk isn't that cute : http://www.ebay.com/itm/Knifemakers-precision-3-axis-grinding-machine-/191027181831
17:34 katsmeow-afk 1amp worth of leds at 150v ?? you are going to blind yourself !
17:34 katsmeow-afk that's 150 watts!!
17:35 katsmeow-afk time for new shoes then, you can't get into a situation where you think you have on the steel toes, but ne is missng, and your toes get cut off
17:36 katsmeow-afk yeas, if you have a 19v @ 3amp or 4amp,, errr,, that may get really hot and melt after 1/2 hr of running at full load
17:37 katsmeow-afk know what i'd do?
17:37 katsmeow-afk well,
17:37 katsmeow-afk lemme tell you
17:37 katsmeow-afk please let me tell you
17:37 katsmeow-afk i want to tell you
17:37 katsmeow-afk so i will
17:37 katsmeow-afk tell you
17:39 katsmeow-afk get a cheapie $4 regular wallmount lite dimmer, add 10ohm resistor and a fwb rectifier block and a cap after it, attach the 150v of leds, attach voltmeter, slowly ramp up the volts till you have the right amount, then .................
17:40 katsmeow-afk make it so the pot cannot go any further, or mod the pot with a reistor so it can rotate but not run the volts up
17:41 katsmeow-afk shouldn't be much of a change, 120vac * 1.4 = 168 , so the dimmer will keep a 20v drop for you to 150
17:42 katsmeow-afk don't use a huge cap, the 10 ohm resistor is to limit the cap charge current thru the dimmer's triac, 1000ufd per amp , so if your leds pull 20ma, well, you do the math, i am exhausted
17:46 katsmeow-afk be VERY careful about led lites around tools, any 50/60/100/120hz getting past the cap can make like a strobe and your lathe may look like it's not turning, but it is, and grabs you
18:02 katsmeow-afk this is a report on ONE buyer on ebay :
18:02 katsmeow-afk 30-Day Summary
18:02 katsmeow-afk Total bids: 7511
18:02 katsmeow-afk Items bid on: 3787
18:03 katsmeow-afk in 30 days, he's bid on 3,787 items, and he bids way high
18:08 katsmeow-afk odd thing about that dremel knife grinder: you cannot change the horizontal angle of the dremel, or it's vertical axis
18:20 rue_shop3 how do you get 3700 bids on an item!
18:20 rue_shop3 katsmeow-afk, I'm gonna use a laptop supply
18:20 rue_shop3 it *just* fits
18:20 katsmeow-afk test it with a load for an hr first
18:21 katsmeow-afk they get really hot under load
18:22 tsmeow-afk loans rue her 10kw adjustable resi
18:22 katsmeow-afk it's a 240v electric heater element and alligator clip on one wire
18:26 rue_shop3 its rated for 3A, I'll be pulling 0.3A from it
18:26 katsmeow-afk k
18:27 katsmeow-afk 6 watts?
18:27 katsmeow-afk do we need any 64kx8 eeproms?
18:27 katsmeow-afk they are slow: 70ns
18:29 katsmeow-afk ah, wikipedia has 4-methylcyclohexanemethanol listed as MCHM
18:58 katsmeow-afk Updated:
18:58 katsmeow-afk BIRMINGHAM, Ala. (AP) - A line of powerful storms flooded creeks, knocked down trees and prompted a tornado watch in parts of Alabama. A tornado watch Saturday morning covered Russell County
19:00 rue_shop3 hmm I need to find 15 150ohm smt resistors
19:00 rue_shop3 oh... wait...
19:00 e_shop3 looks at a spool of 10000 100R smt resistor
19:00 rue_shop3 at whats 3V/200R?
19:00 rue_shop3 hmm
19:00 rue_shop3 15mA instead of 20mA?
19:01 rue_shop3 they would last longer...
19:03 katsmeow-afk ok
19:03 katsmeow-afk i guess you didn't see what i said about the dimmer
19:17 rue_shop3 the light difference is almost 0 between 15 and 20mA
19:17 e_shop3 ties to see a
19:33 m_itx pulls up a c
19:50 tsmeow-afk ponders switching pairs of batteries ((20v...28v) or (40v...56v)) in series instead of stringing them all together and switching (160v...2
19:55 katsmeow-afk switching 8 pairs lets me use cheap IRFZ44 at 22mohm (each), so lets say i use 6 in parallel (3.7mohms) and then 2 of those in series (because it's an H bridge) gives me 7.3mohms, and then 8 of those in series is 59mohms , so a 30amp load drops 1.76v total,
19:56 katsmeow-afk which may be comparable Vdrop to a igbt
19:58 katsmeow-afk it would use 192 mosfets , costing $56 , but they'd need almost no heatsink at all at 30amps continuous
19:58 katsmeow-afk 6 in parallel at 30amps is 5amps @ 22mohm or .11v drop or .55w dissipation
19:59 katsmeow-afk being the IRFZ is supposedly rated at 49amps (if the bond wires and leads don't melt) the surge rating of 6 in parallel is 300amps
20:01 katsmeow-afk even if i spent $56 on igbt, which is only $14 per leg of the h-bridge switcher, they'd need a big heatsink for throwing 50 watts per leg
20:02 katsmeow-afk feedback ?
20:15 katsmeow-afk switchering at the lower voltage means i can use +/-15v opamps and 35v caps and 60v drivers, all cheaper than anything with ratings over 250v
20:27 tsmeow-afk sighs and reads up more about the pile of 20N60's she
20:30 katsmeow-afk Vsat of 1.8v worst case at 110amp pulses
20:31 rue_house kat, there is a * in the data sheet that leads you to the case current limit into
20:31 rue_house 20N60 20A 600V
20:32 rue_house ( N channel)
20:32 tsmeow-afk
20:33 katsmeow-afk i think i have 150 of them, and 24 2" dia 1" thick toroid snubber chokes, 60(?) 450ufd@450vdc switcher-rated caps
20:34 katsmeow-afk i should use them
20:35 katsmeow-afk this looks all wrong according the charts ==>> Vsat of 1.8v worst case at 110amp pulses
20:35 katsmeow-afk 2v@50amp
20:36 katsmeow-afk continuous
20:36 katsmeow-afk the leads will melt off at 50amps
20:39 katsmeow-afk so basically, i haveto put it in a circuit and test it to see when it gets too hot in real life
20:41 rue_shop3 :)thats what the bench is for
20:42 katsmeow-afk yeas
20:42 katsmeow-afk i still hate the idea of switchering directly off the bateries, with not enough ufd
20:43 katsmeow-afk ah ha!
20:45 katsmeow-afk i have those 29,000u @ 75v caps, i can put one across each bank of 4 batteries , making 7,000u@300v
20:46 katsmeow-afk these are *big* caps : 6" long x 3" dia
20:48 katsmeow-afk aaarrrgggg
20:50 katsmeow-afk 6x3 is impossible to fit 4 of into 2 slots of a 12" deep 5.25 rack space
20:51 katsmeow-afk i have some 3,300ufd @ 350v caps, same size
20:54 katsmeow-afk i can put 4 of them in a 3-wide space and still have a 2"x5"x12" inch space for some electronics, that's 10,000ufd good up to 300v
20:57 katsmeow-afk crap, i don't have 3-wide open in a rack with 4 other modules in it
20:59 katsmeow-afk the 450u@450v are 1.5dia x 2" long
21:01 katsmeow-afk i can put 12 easily in a 2-wide module, 24 if i layer them, 36 if i cram them in,,,, that's 6,000u, 12,000u, or 18,000u
21:01 katsmeow-afk hate to use 450v caps on a battery that goes up only to 225v
21:03 katsmeow-afk i'd haveto put in 36 of them, 6,000u for making 115vac from the batteries, and 12,000u for charging them from 240vac power
21:04 katsmeow-afk 36 of them will use up pretty much all i have
21:13 katsmeow-afk i need 240vac 2- or 3-phase , i can switcher down off the rectrified power directly with only small filter caps and chokes
21:15 katsmeow-afk 120vac 2-phase sine will deliver constant 120vdc with 50v of ripple on it, and i can ignore the ripple
21:22 katsmeow-afk means i would haveto finish building and run http://designerthinking.com/images/generator-big/generator.JPG , just to get a voltage source that does not drop to zero 120 times per second :-/
21:22 katsmeow-afk or a "3-phase convertor"
21:26 katsmeow-afk a convertor won't fit in a 2-wide module either
21:39 rue_shop3 oooh, hmmm should I make this converted light fiture switch with a knock sequence?
21:39 katsmeow-afk proximity detection maybe
21:40 katsmeow-afk if any robot sees you approach the lite, the robot turns it on
21:40 katsmeow-afk remotely
21:40 katsmeow-afk using a t13
21:41 rue_shop3 its for above my desk
21:41 rue_shop3 I need to put a switch on it, I'm just brainstorming
21:41 rue_shop3 I want to put the switch on the high side, so the converter isn't on when its off
21:42 rue_shop3 cause I dont trust the caps in it
21:42 rue_shop3 (a 3A supply I'm pulling .3A from)
21:43 rue_shop3 I can put a tiny13 in it and give it a relay to siwtch the mains, power it with a cell phone charger adapter
21:57 rue_shop3 rue_house, 500ma and 750ma 5mm fuses
21:57 rue_shop3 10 at least
22:01 rue_shop3 coil pulls 70mA
22:04 rue_shop3 your dimmer idea is a fine one, I wanted to be pure dc on the leds
22:04 rue_shop3 you really like dimmable lights :)
22:04 e_shop3 thinks about his knock-sw
22:05 Tom_itx knock knovk
22:06 rue_shop3 HEY! your messin with my lighting!
22:06 rue_shop3 :
22:06 rue_shop3 :)
22:07 rue_shop3 according to this, on a tiny13, I can do 3 different detections
22:08 rue_shop3 if I make the detector generic, and make external relay boards, I have recycleability and not excess for this project
22:09 rue_shop3 I can see re-using 5V controlled 120V relay boards
22:12 rue_shop3 both boards excite me
22:12 rue_shop3 didn't I already make a relayboard?
22:13 Tom_itx i did
22:13 Tom_itx used he101 relays
22:14 rue_shop3 I have a bunch of china relays i got, they have 5V coils
22:15 rue_shop3 I didn't write down what I paid for the various china stuff, but of the few things I'v relooked up since, I'v leared to not sorry about it, just use the stuff
22:16 rue_shop3 oh I did, its for a smaller relay tho
22:22 katsmeow-afk if i make the four single modules be one 4-wide module, i can raise it's output to 12amps, which is prolly the max i'd want to feed a ups battery of any size, yeas/no ?
22:23 katsmeow-afk might be able to push it to 16amps
22:24 katsmeow-afk that would be almost 4kw draw tho , 16amps at 240vac
22:25 katsmeow-afk all off the tops of those damned sine waves
22:25 katsmeow-afk 40amp pulses 120x per sec
22:27 katsmeow-afk sheeeeesh, doing it that way will cost me $400
22:27 katsmeow-afk forget that
22:28 rue_shop3 hwo the hell do I maintain seperation when the flipping coil is like .2" away from the blooming common pin?
22:28 katsmeow-afk i can put 600 caps 1000u@16v into a 5x2.5x12 box, what does that get me?
22:29 rue_shop3 katsmeow-afk, for charging? (12A)?
22:29 katsmeow-afk prolly put 20% more if i cram them in
22:29 rue_shop3 thatas a pretty significant charge rate
22:29 katsmeow-afk yeas, in addition to the equaliser chargers, i want a bulk high current supply acoss all the series batteries
22:30 katsmeow-afk yeas
22:32 katsmeow-afk oooo, 600 caps 1000u@16 is way more bulk capacitance than i need, it's 37,000u per battery
22:33 katsmeow-afk i can cut that in half, 15 caps per battery, 240 caps
22:33 katsmeow-afk arg, but the voltage ,, grrrrr
22:33 katsmeow-afk ok,,, 6800u@35v caps
22:34 katsmeow-afk two caps per 24v , plus whatever the voltages work out to be
22:34 katsmeow-afk two caps wide to get the amps: 12 amps
22:35 katsmeow-afk 6 caps tall is 210v
22:36 katsmeow-afk charge the caps with fwb 120vac,,, but that screws up the centertap and gnd
22:37 rue_shop3 :) I dont know what you have to work with :)
22:37 rue_shop3 I blinded myself with an led array, I'm seeing spots, lots and lots of them
22:38 katsmeow-afk ok, 12 tall, 2 wide, 12 caps total, 420v bank charging to 340v off the 240vac , but the caps are in series, total capacitance is only 1,000 u
22:38 Tom_itx like a bug zapper light... follow the light...
22:38 rue_shop3 the caps are to protext the switches from the peak currents?
22:39 katsmeow-afk how the hell does that work,, if i wire the caps to the batteries one ata time, each cap can be a 6amp charger to the battery, but if i wire them in series and indirectly tot he batteries, i get only 1 amp?
22:39 rue_shop3 what is the dimention of the bank your charging?
22:39 katsmeow-afk no, fwb rectify the 240vac line, then switcher down each side to 112v or whatever the bateries are at
22:39 rue_shop3 10series 3 parallel?
22:40 rue_shop3 10s3p?
22:40 katsmeow-afk th batteries? or th ecaps?
22:40 rue_shop3 batteries
22:40 katsmeow-afk 16 series
22:40 rue_shop3 I want to see if I can atleast understand what you up to
22:40 rue_shop3 16s1p?
22:40 katsmeow-afk yeas
22:40 rue_shop3 ok
22:41 rue_shop3 low 168V, high 232V
22:41 katsmeow-afk if icentertap the batteries, i get 8 each side of gnd, i can do the same with the 240v powerline,a nd get enough voltage to switcher down to the battery voltage
22:41 katsmeow-afk but i need the capacitors to filter the rectified 60hz
22:41 katsmeow-afk right
22:42 rue_shop3 katsmeow-afk, pulse desulfating ;)
22:42 rue_shop3 if you cant make a problem better, make it worse
22:42 katsmeow-afk and at 1,000u per amp, the high voltage caps take up more room than i have alloted to them
22:42 rue_shop3 katsmeow-afk,
22:42 katsmeow-afk rue_shop3
22:43 rue_shop3 what about pulse charging
22:43 katsmeow-afk pulse charging never made sense to me, i dunno
22:43 rue_shop3 breaks up the sulfur crystals
22:43 rue_shop3 sulphate, whatever
22:43 katsmeow-afk if i add up the watts that must go into the battery to replace the same watts i took out, pulses haveto be 2x as high, it's easy to overvolt the battery that way
22:44 rue_shop3 really good for batteries not subject to intermittent 110A cranking
22:44 rue_shop3 ok
22:44 rue_shop3 168-232V
22:45 rue_shop3 240 fwr is 336Vdc (unloaded)
22:45 tsmeow-afk
22:45 rue_shop3 232 is about 70% of 336
22:45 katsmeow-afk centertapped around gnd it's +/- 168vdc
22:46 katsmeow-afk the battery stack at 13v is +/- 104vdc
22:46 rue_shop3 which is about .7ms every 1ms
22:47 rue_shop3 I wonder how long it takes a 1mH inductor to exhaust at 12A
22:47 katsmeow-afk so on each side of gnd the idea was to switcher down the 168 to whatever the battery voltage is untill it reaches 14v per battery, at 10amps or more
22:48 rue_shop3 I made a cycling individual charger for buddys packs
22:48 katsmeow-afk i was toying with 15-20amps at 120 for the equalisers, and 10-20 at 240 for bulk fast charging
22:48 rue_shop3 it uses a 4017, when the charge done light goes on, it releases a low timing 555 that brings the 4017 to the next cell
22:49 rue_shop3 where the not done-id-ness causes it to stay on that battery till its done
22:49 rue_shop3 when all of them are charged, it slowly cycles thru them all
22:49 rue_shop3 somewhere I have schematics?
22:50 katsmeow-afk i am already charging each 12v battery at 4amps dc, if i throw more money at it i can make it be 8 amps, i was just strongly hoping if i were to ever add more batteries, like 16s4p, i could dump more power in off the 240vac generator(s)
22:50 rue_shop3 ok
22:50 rue_shop3 I'm gonna work on my relay board for a bit
22:51 rue_shop3 keep me in on your thoughts
22:51 rue_shop3 yea, .7ms every 1ms is 70%
22:52 katsmeow-afk if i use 2 of the 3,300u at 350v, i can rectify the 240v line that way, barely, but the caps aren't at gnd anywhere, and that's only 6amps, it's barely an improvement for all the room it will take up
22:57 katsmeow-afk if i arrange 6800u @ 35v caps in a 10s12p , get 8,000u @ 350v , i can arrange those caps into the available space i am pretty sure
22:57 katsmeow-afk but keeping the caps equalised may be a nitemare
22:59 katsmeow-afk 11s18p is 11,000u @ 385v , which works if each +/- switcher works at the same time
23:01 katsmeow-afk 12s18p is 10,000u @ 420v , which works even if each +/- switcher works asynchronously, because i can centertap it and gnd the middle
23:01 rue_shop3 the caps are at min 168V, the peak on the mains is 336V, thats a diff of 168V
23:01 katsmeow-afk yeas?
23:02 rue_shop3 I wonder how many ms conduction that is during the wave
23:03 rue_shop3 I could make a program I suppose
23:03 katsmeow-afk but if i add circuits to make darned sure no set of caps ever goes near overvolting, the closer the stack is to 336 the closer i haveto control the cap equalisation too
23:03 rue_shop3 or to ^@#$~math~@#&@@
23:03 rue_shop3 I wonder what the eq current is
23:03 rue_shop3 maybe a 1k across each would balance it
23:04 e_shop3 crin
23:04 rue_shop3 unless one shorts
23:04 katsmeow-afk right, if ONE shorts they all get overvolted
23:04 katsmeow-afk if one shorts, my equaliser blows up too
23:05 tsmeow-afk gets a head
23:05 katsmeow-afk this would be trivial if it wasn't singlephase or it wasn't ac
23:11 rue_shop3 kat, do you have a guideline for trace currents?
23:11 rue_shop3 how many amps would you go with for .1" trace?
23:11 katsmeow-afk i guess the best i can do is put 6 of the 3,300u caps in a 4-wide , gets me 18amps into the battery bank if i feed it 240vac
23:15 katsmeow-afk several online calculators with all the variables ==>> https://duckduckgo.com/?q=PCB+Trace+Width+Calculator
23:16 katsmeow-afk 1/2 oz is very weak for current, 2oz is 2x as much as 1oz, adding thin solder is like adding 1oz, piling on the solder is like 2oz, temperature matters, etc
23:18 katsmeow-afk it's usually more cost effective to go with a pcb based on everything but the high current traces, then go and lay some copper wire on the traces embedded in solder
23:18 katsmeow-afk that way you can easily so 10amps continusous by embedding 18 awg stranded
23:18 katsmeow-afk i thikn my brian brew a fluse
23:20 rue_shop3 hmmm
23:21 rue_shop3 kat, what about a transformer with a magnetic shunt to limit charging current
23:21 rue_shop3 then you just have to cap the voltage
23:22 rue_shop3 1:0.7 transformer, with a magnetic shunt
23:22 rue_shop3 er
23:22 katsmeow-afk 20amp for bulk charge and 4a (or 8a) equalisers across each battery should do it, i just haveto add a 2nd 5.25 tall rack frame
23:22 rue_shop3 336:232
23:22 rue_shop3 with magnetic shunt
23:22 katsmeow-afk transfomers are huge and weigh, but i have 30(?) nukebox transformers
23:22 rue_shop3 then its just balancing
23:23 katsmeow-afk what's the transfomer for? i stillneed the caps, and if the point is to knock the voltage down , then the peak current to charge the caps goes way up
23:23 rue_shop3 I'm using the "smps, multi-secondaryies-add-up-to-bank-voltage-but-are-tapped-to-each-cell' method
23:24 katsmeow-afk oh
23:24 rue_shop3 so the switcher just runs, and whatever the battery is fed its share of the bank voltage
23:24 katsmeow-afk i have that method half done, it's very heavy, and it's very inefficient, it gets bloody hot
23:24 rue_shop3 I said that wrong
23:25 rue_shop3 I designed the relay board!
23:25 katsmeow-afk congrats!
23:25 rue_shop3 .2" HV/LV clearance :/
23:26 rue_shop3 thats like 5000V on a good day
23:27 katsmeow-afk *very* heavy, gets really hot, and it's this big for only about half the battery stack : http://designerthinking.com/DC_Lighting.html
23:27 rue_shop3 I think thats my garunteed arcover rating
23:27 rue_shop3 me drools over the display
23:27 rue_shop3 ugh
23:27 katsmeow-afk hmm?
23:28 rue_shop3 love all the numbers
23:28 katsmeow-afk oh
23:28 rue_shop3 needs more discrete indicators tho
23:29 katsmeow-afk i was thinking of a couple idiot lites next to each set of 7-segs
23:29 katsmeow-afk and a set of lites tween the on/off and the breaker button
23:29 rue_shop3 mmmm idiot lights
23:30 katsmeow-afk still, it doesn't compare to descrete switchers for keeping cool, eing smaller, and weighing next to nothing
23:30 rue_shop3 if I start the etchant heating now, I wonder if it'll be done when I get the next board desgin finished
23:30 katsmeow-afk th etranformer, at full load, is too hot to touch
23:31 rue_shop3 damn, I forgot to do the grinding when it was early
23:31 katsmeow-afk i mean like tap for a sec, it will hurt hot
23:31 rue_shop3 lota wind, might end up on genny tonight
23:31 rue_shop3 hmm better siphon some gas from the truck...
23:31 katsmeow-afk your weather is making national news here
23:33 katsmeow-afk you get no rain or snow tonite,, or the radar is down
23:34 katsmeow-afk actually, two radar sites up there are down atm
23:34 katsmeow-afk http://images.intellicast.com/National/Radar/Current.aspx?location=USWA0441
23:34 rue_shop3 if(wind>80kph) then goto backupPower
23:35 rue_shop3 oh damnit
23:35 katsmeow-afk isn't that what your 48v battery bank is for?
23:35 rue_shop3 I put my tea down somewhere
23:35 rue_shop3 my 5kw true-sine ups died
23:36 katsmeow-afk oh
23:36 rue_shop3 no reason, been over it 3 times with a microscope, cant work out whats wrong
23:36 rue_shop3 $3600 to replace, best numbers
23:36 rue_shop3 maybe I should fix the 10kw ups, it needs 192V battery bank
23:36 rue_shop3 :(
23:37 rue_shop3 there are two ways to get power
23:37 rue_shop3 convert it from other power,
23:38 rue_shop3 generate a reaction that produces power
23:39 katsmeow-afk nice thing about transformerless hv battery banks tho: 120watts is only 1amp , and it can be really efficicnet
23:39 rue_shop3 I totally agree
23:39 rue_shop3 240V -> current limited fwr -> DC-DC -> bank
23:39 rue_shop3 buck regulators are easy
23:40 rue_shop3 twas my first smps!
23:40 rue_shop3 my neighbours seem to be *gone*
23:40 katsmeow-afk what is this? a panoramic camera ? http://cdn.instructables.com/FOY/AZWL/H2WEV89R/FOYAZWLH2WEV89R.LARGE.jpg
23:41 rue_shop3 I noticed last night ALL the lights at their place are off, which I'v not seen before
23:41 katsmeow-afk heh, my first buckconvertor was an accident, the regulator was oscillating
23:41 rue_shop3 looks like lydar
23:41 rue_shop3 lidar?
23:41 rue_shop3 oh, they are IR prox sensors
23:41 katsmeow-afk i dunno
23:41 rue_shop3 hahaha
23:41 rue_shop3 its cardboard
23:41 e_shop3 zooms
23:42 rue_shop3 its diy 'lydar'
23:42 rue_shop3 laser cut cardboard, hahaha
23:42 katsmeow-afk lidar
23:42 rue_shop3 what was I doing..
23:42 rue_shop3 oh right, pcb for baords...
23:42 rue_shop3 wonder how many relay baords I shoudl etch...
23:43 katsmeow-afk http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lidar ,, but where is the laser in that pic?
23:43 katsmeow-afk doesn't matter, nm
23:44 rue_shop3 hahah I been specficially designing my projects to fit on 1" pcb scraps, which, apparently, I'm running out of
23:46 rue_shop3 hmmm the pcb should be by the pcb etching staion
23:46 rue_shop3 but then where do all the 12V sla's go?
23:47 katsmeow-afk hmm?
23:48 rue_shop3 is there a time its preferable to use phenolic pcb over fr4?
23:49 katsmeow-afk cheapness
23:49 katsmeow-afk it's cheaper to make and cheaper to drill
23:50 katsmeow-afk but it's more fragile, and afaik it's cruddy with rf because it can soak up water
23:50 rue_shop3 hmm
23:50 rue_shop3 I have a peice I'm not using for anything
23:50 rue_shop3 cause its a pain in the ass to cut
23:51 katsmeow-afk yeas, it's chunky and real weak glue
23:52 katsmeow-afk it's bakelit-y , made of cellulose, iirc
23:52 rue_shop3 but your saying it makes good moisture detectors?
23:52 katsmeow-afk heh
23:52 katsmeow-afk if you can "reset" it by drying it out
23:52 rue_shop3 hmmm
23:53 katsmeow-afk doping some cloth with a metal salt would prolly be more reliable and active
23:53 katsmeow-afk even use salt and stainless steel probes on it
23:53 rue_shop3 ...name a metal salt...
23:54 katsmeow-afk sodium cloride :-P
23:54 rue_shop3 ah, that would be
23:54 katsmeow-afk triflimidate M(NTf 2)n in organic chemistry is a metal salt of triflimidic acid
23:55 katsmeow-afk potassium chloride (KCl) is a metal halide salt
23:55 katsmeow-afk metal salts like lithium chloride
23:55 katsmeow-afk Metal salt-based molluscicides are not toxic to higher animals
23:55 katsmeow-afk Calcium perchlorate is classified as a metal perchlorate salt
23:56 e_shop3 peels the copper of a double sided peice of
23:56 katsmeow-afk blue salt copper(II) sulfate in the form of the mineral chalcanthite
23:56 rue_shop3 you reading or you a chemist?
23:57 katsmeow-afk use some old etchant, just dry it and add a pH buffer so it won't eat the cloth
23:57 rue_shop3 :) Ihave lots
23:57 tsmeow-afk liked playng with metal slt crys
23:58 rue_shop3 hah! I'm getting good, I did a whole 3"x13" peice of fr4 in like 2 peices!
23:58 katsmeow-afk but anyhow, if the salt ets wet it conducts , but when it drys and recrystalises it stops conducting
23:58 rue_shop3 aaah
23:58 rue_shop3 I see
23:58 katsmeow-afk problem, the water it's wet with,,, can wash the salt away
23:59 katsmeow-afk and some salts are poisonous, so wash your paws if you get the strange salts on them