#garfield Logs

Nov 19 2013

00:02 katsmeow-afk i dunno if you can get all the alum sizes you need, but the stuff is easy to cut anyhow
00:03 katsmeow-afk just concidinkly, the keystock i found fit the sizes i wanted to use, being i want superduty strength in mine
00:07 rue_house strange, if I'd not measured it myself, I'd never beleive this
00:07 katsmeow-afk which?
00:07 rue_house my finger
00:08 katsmeow-afk how long have you had that finger?
00:08 katsmeow-afk are you sure it is your finger?
00:10 rue_house I just wrote my name on it, and nobody is complaining...
00:11 katsmeow-afk just to be sure, hide it this winter in gloves
00:16 katsmeow-afk http://designerthinking.com/images/Tek-design/DSCF6486m.jpg <<== see how the hole pattern, hole size, and led size all make for a centered look?
00:16 katsmeow-afk that was not an accident
00:17 rue_house it looks great
00:17 katsmeow-afk will look better with the x2 and x3 displays
00:18 katsmeow-afk maybe that is why i am alwasys so tired,, my brain, which never shut off when i tell it to, keeps on figuring this stuff out
00:20 katsmeow-afk enough stainless to make 6 module faces is $13.50, including the s&h
00:21 rue_house how do you pcb the displays wihotu blocking holes too much?
00:23 katsmeow-afk the back of the led is 1/4 inch back, and if i use as little as needed to solder them, i put the rest of the circuits elsewhere
00:23 e_house
00:23 rue_house I'd still like to help with coding
00:24 rue_house I got confused when the signalling plan changed a few times
00:24 rue_house we started off with slave registers
00:24 rue_house I think we ended with slave microcontrollers
00:24 rue_house I dont remmeber how the adc/display/microcontroller interface was gonna go
00:25 rue_house I coded up a few options
00:25 rue_house getting shifted 7 segment data working was fun
00:25 katsmeow-afk i'll haveto go thru the postit notes to remember
00:26 rue_house I hope its not as bad as my 8.5x11" note pile
00:29 katsmeow-afk just dropped a file, i should call it a nite and think if dinner and bed
00:29 katsmeow-afk i need to make a jig to hold the jigsaw upside down too, that would help this go a *lot* faster
00:30 katsmeow-afk i did all this by hand, cept for the cutingof the faceplate from the bigger sheet
00:32 katsmeow-afk man, this was just the perfect hole size/spacing and led size to fit the TM500 form factor
00:32 katsmeow-afk not that i will use them in the TM500, each of these modules will handle more power than the entire TM500 can handle
01:39 katsmeow-afk got finger pics yet?
01:46 rue_bed mmm tommorow
01:48 tsmeow-afk will prolly sleep
01:49 katsmeow-afk i hope thislooks ok when i am done with it
01:50 katsmeow-afk the 2-dig and 3-digit displays are in Chicago already, maybe i'll get them this week
01:54 katsmeow-afk i HATE html email : Description: PNY Optima 2 GB SD Card - Retail - (P-SD2GB-EF) , Item=23 =
01:54 katsmeow-afk 111219450103
01:54 katsmeow-afk Qty: 1
01:54 katsmeow-afk Unit Price: =246.50 USD
01:55 katsmeow-afk actually, it was 3 cards for $6.50
01:57 katsmeow-afk which was less than one card at walmart, even if the camera would take the SDHC
08:58 rue_house flash seems to bottom out $1/G
10:25 katsmeow-afk yeas, but like i said, i haveto use the NON- HC versions, but the 32Gb modules are cheaper per Gb, true
10:26 katsmeow-afk there's SD and SDHC
10:26 katsmeow-afk HC = High Capacity
10:27 katsmeow-afk i got zero sleep again
10:28 katsmeow-afk being sleep deprived is not a good thing when using power tools
16:26 katsmeow-afk how to tell your camera is old: it has a "whopping" 16Mb of ram, it requires the downloading computer to have at least win95, a 233Mhz cpu, and 200 Mbytes of hdd space
17:35 Tom_itx how to tell your camera is old: you bought it last week
17:45 katsmeow-afk there's a fair amount of <$20 megapixel cameras on ebay, but they lack accessories, and cannot use the new SDHC cards
17:49 katsmeow-afk the Kodak C300 series needs the docking station to have a ntsc video out, plus it's labled S-video but it isn't separate luma/chroma, and it's a non-standard plug/jack
18:06 katsmeow-afk http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/CX6330/ZBOTTOM.JPG
18:44 katsmeow-afk http://openeuphoria.org/forum/123261.wc
19:05 katsmeow-afk a slow speed, high force, steady motion upside down jig saw that holds a file instead of a saw blade
19:07 katsmeow-afk idiot Alabamian on tv spells "going" as "goeing", since the word sounds like it has 6 letters in Alabama
19:07 katsmeow-afk or maybe it's "gouing"
19:33 katsmeow-afk http://designerthinking.com/images/Tek-design/DSCF6487m.jpg
19:33 katsmeow-afk http://designerthinking.com/images/Tek-design/DSCF6488m.jpg
19:33 katsmeow-afk http://designerthinking.com/images/Tek-design/DSCF6489m.jpg
19:33 katsmeow-afk http://designerthinking.com/images/Tek-design/DSCF6491m.jpg
19:34 katsmeow-afk the leds still have the protection plastic film on them which is why they look a bit groty
19:34 katsmeow-afk or grody, depending on how yu like to spell non-words
19:35 katsmeow-afk <quote>it seams this may be an Americanized pronounciation of the british "grotty", which means "of poor quality".</quote>
20:32 katsmeow-afk ...
20:32 katsmeow-afk have i done something wrong aain?
20:35 Tom_itx that looks nice kat
20:35 Tom_itx no, i feel like crap tonight
20:36 tsmeow-afk offers pizza (lite) and special eggnog (with real
20:36 katsmeow-afk wanna tell me the best way to run the 3-digit and 2-digit off an ATTiny?
20:37 Tom_itx ask rue, he's done it already
20:37 Tom_itx i haven't really
20:37 tsmeow-afk is 100% unsure of the timing tween doing 2 ADC operatons, converting the 10digit number to 5 7-seg "val
20:39 katsmeow-afk is every adc op going to take exactly the same number of clocks each time, regardless of the range of the analog input?
20:39 Tom_itx yeah i'm pretty sure
20:40 Tom_itx it just returns a value of the range of the adc
20:40 Tom_itx 8 10 bit etc
20:40 tsmeow-afk
20:41 katsmeow-afk so that could be one of the timeing values: do adc, write 3 digits, do adc, write 2 digits and a fake (to make equal time use, and code reuse)
20:41 katsmeow-afk repeat
20:41 Tom_itx http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/how_to/atmega168/mega168_adc_index.php
20:42 tsmeow-afk waits on download, then will stud
20:44 katsmeow-afk rs-232 AND isp programming?
20:45 Tom_itx uh huh
20:45 Tom_itx for the demo
20:47 katsmeow-afk i have a small stash of Tiny44, and a few 2313
20:47 Tom_itx do both have adc?
20:47 Tom_itx i dunno
20:48 katsmeow-afk i thik both do, but my stash of 8051 clones don't
20:49 katsmeow-afk i am almost thinking, correct me if i am wrong, that driving the displays, an external ram for data logging, and a remote line for remote access, would be easiest if i used the very cheap 40pin avr and the free 10bit adc chips i have
20:50 Tom_itx possibly
20:50 tsmeow-afk hs that large stash of 20cent AT90S44
20:51 katsmeow-afk i was just thinking that muxing the lines on a physically small avr might get complicated?
20:52 Tom_itx and the current to drive the segments decently
20:52 tsmeow-afk has assorted descreet latches to make up lots of current, if ne
20:53 Tom_itx i'm gonna afk a while
20:53 katsmeow-afk hope you feel better asap
20:53 Tom_itx killer headache
20:54 tsmeow-afk hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
20:56 katsmeow-afk the display layout is almost exactly the length of the dip-40, and all the 7-seg pins easily fit tween the dip-40's legs
21:07 katsmeow-afk the pinout of the 2-dig and 3-dig are not the same as these singles tho
21:10 katsmeow-afk sholdn't
21:10 katsmeow-afk adc_temp = adc_temp / 4; // Average a few samples
21:10 katsmeow-afk be
21:10 katsmeow-afk adc_temp = adc_temp / i; // Average a few samples
21:11 katsmeow-afk ?
21:12 tsmeow-afk ponders the cheapest avr with enough pins doing the adc asychronously, and aways having an answer to give the display avr whenever asked fo
21:32 katsmeow-afk 2313 has no adc
21:53 tsmeow-afk ponders at
21:58 katsmeow-afk 10bit adc chip, feeds addy lines on a 8kx8 eprom/ram/rom, the top 3 lines are digit select, the eprom outputs the 7-segment display lines directly, allowing a max output of 999
22:02 katsmeow-afk so, same design: cheapest 2-channel adc floating up off gnd on the charge lines, 4 optical coupling to the display unit on ground level, i send up a clk line on adc1, i get one bit of adc, i send one clock up on adc2 clk line, i get one bit from it
22:07 katsmeow-afk rue, can that be pulled off with 2 tiny13's? one for voltage, one for current, i can even isolate them from *each other*, and 50 cents each on ebay
22:11 katsmeow-afk optically clock into a 74HC164
22:11 katsmeow-afk ONE 74HC164 for the entire module
22:11 katsmeow-afk ONE 8kx8 eprom/etc for the whole module
22:13 katsmeow-afk use some avr for the lan serial buss, use it's clock as the module clocking the data off the tiny13's
22:24 katsmeow-afk looks like qty 10 of any 27C eprom is $12
23:03 rue_house avrs run 1 adc and a mux
23:04 katsmeow-afk hence another reason to run 2, to get simultaneous readings of volts vs current
23:04 rue_house but didn't you want a microcontroller in there to read the value
23:04 katsmeow-afk yeas : [21:57] <katsmeow-afk> use some avr for the lan serial buss, use it's clock as the module clocking the data off the tiny13's
23:05 rue_house microcontroller link can be done over an opto to a shift register display, I already wrote that code for ya
23:05 katsmeow-afk pick off the data, process it, send it out as needed
23:05 rue_house ( you might not have it yet)
23:05 katsmeow-afk for usng tiny13's as adc chips?
23:06 rue_house iirc, for built in mux, tiny26's are the cheapest 10 bit adcs
23:06 rue_house I think
23:06 rue_house I sliced my finger open with the sharp knife today
23:06 tsmeow-afk checks ,, because i think the most i wanna mux is 2 channels, on two c
23:06 rue_house I glued it with crazy glue, cause it bonds skin instantly
23:06 rue_house well, 8 pin micro sounds good them
23:07 katsmeow-afk doing two at once (volts and current), then temperature and whatever can be done lazyly
23:10 katsmeow-afk i don't see any tiny26 for under $1.80 each
23:10 katsmeow-afk i see tiny13 for $0.50
23:10 rue_house whtas the cheapest 10 channel 10 bit adc you can find
23:10 rue_house inw hat volume?
23:10 katsmeow-afk 50pcs
23:11 katsmeow-afk i could split it with yu and still come out ahead
23:15 katsmeow-afk wait, i need 32 , and a few to play with
23:20 rue_house is it a "hurry up and buy now" thing or a "whatever" thing
23:20 rue_house tiny13 is a bit hard to work with, you ahve to convert the C to assembler and compile/load it from there
23:20 katsmeow-afk it's gonna take me a few days to file all this stainless steel
23:21 rue_house put it all under "usefull metal"
23:21 katsmeow-afk it is? that sounds odd
23:21 rue_house t13 isn't large enouch for a C stack
23:22 katsmeow-afk well, i need 4 invertor modules, and i got 2 more for blanks to fill out the 19" rack, i can use for other things
23:22 katsmeow-afk why does it need a stack?
23:22 rue_house C puts all its arguments n the stack between functions
23:22 rue_house instead of passing them via register
23:23 katsmeow-afk program goes like this: listenfor a clock pulse..... when you get one, do an adc and output a bit on the serial line, when you get the next clk, output the next bit,, untill all 10 bits are out
23:23 katsmeow-afk then
23:23 katsmeow-afk listenfor a clock pulse..... when you get one, do an adc and output a bit on the serial line, when you get the next clk, output the next bit,, untill all 10 bits are out
23:23 katsmeow-afk then
23:23 katsmeow-afk listenfor a clock pulse..... when you get one, do an adc and output a bit on the serial line, when you get the next clk, output the next bit,, untill all 10 bits are out
23:23 rue_house yea, I cant think deeply in assembler much anymore
23:23 katsmeow-afk oh
23:27 katsmeow-afk there's only one 10bit byte to be real concerned about, and maybe one counter byte, the stack needs be only 3 bytes? the avr has 8 registers, just use 3 of them instead of a stack
23:28 katsmeow-afk start loop1
23:28 rue_house its converting 0->1024 of a 5V reference to a number from 0->999
23:28 katsmeow-afk oh
23:28 katsmeow-afk nononono
23:28 rue_house math in assembler is something I avoid
23:28 katsmeow-afk you just send the 10bit adc output
23:28 rue_house to another micro?
23:28 katsmeow-afk eventually, yeas
23:28 rue_house ok
23:29 rue_house so t13-> opto->(avr) -> display
23:29 katsmeow-afk make the tiny13 codeassuperstupid as possible
23:29 rue_house 50c 10 bit adc
23:29 rue_house 8khz
23:29 rue_house ish
23:29 katsmeow-afk wee,, mostly, yeas, the tiny13 recieves a clock , and sends a data bit , both optically linked from some other voltage platform
23:31 katsmeow-afk on first clock, do theadc and send a bye, then it gets 9 more clocks and it sends the 9 remaining bits, then sleep and listen
23:31 rue_house ok
23:34 katsmeow-afk hmm
23:34 katsmeow-afk crap
23:34 rue_house ?
23:34 katsmeow-afk if the first bit is a zero, how does it send it?
23:34 rue_house if its synchronous serial, it dosnt' matter
23:35 katsmeow-afk ok,,,, when the adc is done, send a 1 as a "done" bit
23:35 rue_house usually you use a chip select, a clock, and return data
23:35 katsmeow-afk then the clk triggers the 10 adc bits
23:35 rue_house a low edge on the chip select resets the bit counter
23:35 rue_house or do like i2c,
23:36 rue_house well, maybe not
23:36 rue_house (no bidir data line)
23:36 rue_house use pwm on the clock line,
23:36 rue_house hmm
23:37 katsmeow-afk it's only two more instrctions to do it the cheap way: when adc is done, send one data bit, then enter the transfer clk-data loop for all 10 bits
23:37 rue_house preamble :)
23:37 katsmeow-afk ok
23:37 rue_house you want each t13 for 1 channel?
23:38 katsmeow-afk except the preamble in tis case is async, and the 10 data bits are sync'd with the clock it gets
23:38 katsmeow-afk yeas sir
23:38 katsmeow-afk this way, every t13 is identical
23:38 rue_house 8 - 2 power - 1 reset, -1 adc, -1 data, -1 clock
23:38 rue_house 2 left
23:38 rue_house make one chip select
23:38 katsmeow-afk it is dead simple, uses only 2 optos, and canrun for 5 yrers on a AA cell
23:39 katsmeow-afk what reset?
23:39 rue_house you dont want to turn the reset pin into an io
23:39 katsmeow-afk right, ok
23:39 rue_house getting it back is a (*&(*^&*%()_)&%*&%
23:39 katsmeow-afk can the tiny13 do a differential adc?
23:40 rue_house you could vcc, gnd, rst, adc, data, clk, /cs, spare
23:40 katsmeow-afk but the /cs will mean another opto
23:41 rue_house yea...
23:41 e_house points to kats large pile of DVR o
23:42 katsmeow-afk ok, the chip reserves pwr, gnd, and reset, i need adc in, clk in, data out ,, you can do whatever you want with the other 2,, make them signalling idiot lites or leave them in place as the icp pins?
23:42 rue_house no, its all single ended input
23:43 katsmeow-afk it's not just the one opto, then i haveto have a circuit to operate the opto too, etc etc
23:43 rue_house what if the clock pin employs a bit of pwm,
23:43 rue_house pulses under a certian amount of time are next bit, long pulses are for bit counter reset
23:43 katsmeow-afk if the clock i send to the t13 is pwm, then the t13 needs a way to recognise the pwm states
23:44 rue_house yea, you just time the pulse
23:44 katsmeow-afk why does it need a counter reset?
23:44 rue_house so you garuntee next bit is 0
23:44 rue_house sync
23:44 katsmeow-afk umm, it powers up in unknown state? :-/
23:44 rue_house _____---_____-____-_______-_____-____-____-___-____-___
23:44 rue_house ^reset ^ next bit ^ next bit ...
23:45 rue_house I just like hard sync
23:45 tsmeow-afk
23:45 katsmeow-afk trying to find a way to
23:46 rue_house if the reset pulse was say, .5ms and the regular ones are like 25us it would be easy to distinguish
23:46 katsmeow-afk in the t13 ?
23:46 rue_house after, 40us or so you just take it as a reset
23:46 rue_house yea
23:46 rue_house have a loop counter while its high
23:46 rue_house at 40 conunts, if its still high, its a reset, other wise, setup next bit
23:47 katsmeow-afk ok, if it's easy,, it wold need to be reset for each adc ?
23:47 rue_house you could do them all at once
23:47 katsmeow-afk wait, the adc can fire an int, the int can reset the cntr
23:47 rue_house matter a fact, the clock could be the same signal across all t13
23:47 rue_house and the main chip would just have an io for each t13, pull it all in at once
23:47 katsmeow-afk no, do not want to clock all at once, altho it's ok if all do the adc at the same time
23:48 rue_house if you can, why not?
23:48 katsmeow-afk there will be 8 t13 per module, i don't want to deal with 8 serial streams at once
23:48 rue_house it would almost completely synchonize the reading times
23:48 rue_house ok
23:48 katsmeow-afk it means more chips
23:49 rue_house an atmega324 has like 32 io lines
23:49 rue_house how many modules?
23:50 katsmeow-afk check this out: if i do each t13 one ata time, i can clock into a 74HC164, which directly feeds a 8kx8 eprom ($1.50), which outputs the 7-seg display pattern directly
23:50 katsmeow-afk it's only 2 chips, and won't clog up the arc doing the system buss
23:50 katsmeow-afk the avr
23:50 rue_house a mega324 would take up the footprint of less than just 2 eproms
23:51 katsmeow-afk 8 channels per module, 4 modules like http://designerthinking.com/images/Tek-design/DSCF6491m.jpg
23:51 rue_house so it would easily cram into just 2 mega324's
23:51 katsmeow-afk but the mega would haveto calculate 8 displays , AND not lose timing on a system buss lan
23:52 rue_house its 16Mhz chip :)
23:52 katsmeow-afk see 8 displays in that url, 4 3-didgit, and 4 2-didgits
23:52 rue_house you COULD also have the t13 generate the 7 segment data, and just put the 164's on the other side
23:52 katsmeow-afk the eprom just seems like a super way to do the binary-bcd-7seg conversions in one swell foop
23:53 rue_house the t13 can do it in one lookup
23:53 katsmeow-afk no, if the t13 does the conversions, it's 3 times more data to send out and be recieved
23:53 katsmeow-afk the t13 doesn't have 8k of lookup in it
23:53 rue_house look at the baud rate,
23:54 rue_house it can do more than 60Hz on the displays
23:54 katsmeow-afk the avr baud rate will be strangled by the optos
23:54 rue_house those pwoer supply optos are high speed
23:54 katsmeow-afk 20khz is high speed?
23:55 rue_house 20Khz, day, 3 digits, 8 bits/digit = 24 bits
23:55 rue_house just under 1khz update rate
23:55 katsmeow-afk times 8, thru the display avr, even while it may be on the lan buss at the time?
23:56 rue_house no
23:56 rue_house t13 -> opto->164(x3) -> 7 segs
23:56 rue_house http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuNvEgS4VOY
23:57 rue_house oh, thats close, not what I was looking for
23:57 rue_house but its what I'm talking about now
23:57 rue_house I dont know if you want to do it that way
23:57 katsmeow-afk will be a few to dl it before i can start watching it
23:57 rue_house http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_lQRRS0oxk
23:57 rue_house ^^ ten do that one
23:57 rue_house instead
23:58 rue_house its a m32, shifting into 4 164's, running 4 7seg displays
23:58 rue_house and its shorter
23:58 katsmeow-afk that means buying a m32, and using 3 more 164's
23:58 rue_house no
23:58 katsmeow-afk well, i don't have a m32
23:58 rue_house I just used a m32 cause it was easy
23:59 rue_house the same code could go on t13
23:59 katsmeow-afk still dl'ing
23:59 rue_house I do all my dev on m32, its a nice big sandbox, then a person can widdle it down to what fits on the target controller