#garfield Logs

Mar 20 2013

00:00 jennie I am following you
00:00 jennie so
00:01 jennie lets make parts list ?
00:02 useless ok, radio dead, tv dead, turkey in nukebox, paws washed
00:03 useless i assume you are a neighbor of rue's, he should make the parts list since he'll be the one helping you up there
00:03 rue_house kat, are you saying a to-92 will drop 6V when switching 100mA
00:03 rue_house cause I'd expect .7V
00:04 useless no, i am saying it may be holding 6v
00:04 useless i dunno, it sounds ike driving this motor is all an experiment, and anything is possible
00:04 rue_house ok, lets design this, the microcontroller switches the transistor with a 5V signal
00:05 rue_house you need a pnp to buffer current for the driver NPN and you need a NPN to switch the power PNP
00:05 useless i do?
00:05 rue_house you cant just make it a totempole cause you need a high impedence state
00:05 useless ouch
00:05 rue_house the microcontroller can drive 20mA
00:06 rue_house do yo usee why I have to-92 behind the drivers?
00:06 useless wait, you are driving it delta and not Y ?
00:06 rue_house remember hard drive motor
00:06 rue_house only 3 wires
00:06 useless yeas, can still be either internally
00:06 useless but ok
00:07 rue_house now we need to mix a comparitor and current sense resistor in there
00:07 rue_house for current limiting
00:07 useless hang a pnp off the +12, pull it's base down with an npn, sit a npn on gnd, pull it's base up with a npn
00:08 rue_house exactly
00:08 useless if you use all npn on the microcpu, at least all your "ono" voltages will be "1"
00:08 useless "on"
00:08 useless and you still get current gain
00:08 rue_house yes
00:09 useless nukebox beeped
00:09 rue_house the current control can be limited to the NPN drivers, as all the currents got to go thru one of them anyhow
00:10 useless think the food is ok? power off 18 hrs, but the meats were sitting on ice, almost no freezer ice melted, i never opened the door
00:10 rue_house yea, english leave meat on the counter for days at a time and they usually live
00:10 useless yea, but your npn can be pulled up only so far, you got 6v of headroom on the pnp up on the 12v line
00:11 rue_house the driver transistors have base resistors
00:11 useless putting emitter resistors to sense current up there won't hurt you any,, unless you can pull the npn-npn base up enough?
00:12 rue_house but its above the available 5V line
00:12 jennie this page also have some good ideas may be you already know http://letsmakerobots.com/node/2876
00:13 rue_house :) you hav a micro for all that
00:14 useless they don't show any high impedence states
00:15 useless zap, midnite, my brain shut off
00:15 rue_house http://letsmakerobots.com/files/userpics/u610/BLDC.jpg
00:15 rue_house that does
00:15 rue_house jennie, dont be fooled, as usual, me and kat are argueing about the exact same thing
00:15 jennie but I do not know circuit or parts
00:15 jennie :-(
00:15 rue_house hole on
00:15 jennie ok
00:15 rue_house I'm drawing
00:15 jennie I am following you
00:16 useless well, it is drawn like it can have a high impedance situation, i dunno that it does or not
00:17 rue_house I have a 3 phase driver datasheet
00:17 rue_house they show it all
00:17 rue_house I dont ahve it now
00:17 rue_house i closed it a week ago and I dont remmeber the part number
00:19 useless while you draw, i go make a sammich
00:19 rue_house I think your gonna tear a strip off me for the comparitor part of this
00:22 useless bak
00:26 rue_house almost finished drawing
00:26 eless is still gnawing on a dead
00:31 useless any way we can know if zhanx is ok?
00:31 rue_house nope
00:31 useless that sucks
00:31 rue_house him dieing on a mission is a possability we have to just live with
00:31 rue_house but if he dies, we know he does so convinced its not worth it
00:31 useless i mission in Nevada, usa, on an army base?
00:32 rue_house kat, you need to help with whats missing is this...
00:32 useless 42
00:33 rue_house a joke!? kat, this is awesome!
00:33 useless sorry
00:33 rue_house no I'm So happy to hear you make a joke
00:33 rue_house I worry about ya dont ya know
00:33 useless i make jokes, it's not unlike me to make a joke
00:34 useless i am not in a joking mood when i am an outcast in here tho
00:34 rue_house I dont know the last time you make a joke on irc
00:34 useless this morning, not in this channel
00:36 useless this is more than you have spoken to me in a couple weeks
00:37 useless i guess you just quit talking to me again
00:38 useless i don't know why, i have no clues
00:38 useless it's incomprehensible
00:38 rue_house Tom_itx, kat, http://eds.dyndns.org/~ircjunk/projects/lathe/p1040881.jpg
00:38 rue_house http://eds.dyndns.org/~ircjunk/projects/lathe/p1040882.jpg
00:39 rue_house http://eds.dyndns.org/~ircjunk/projects/lathe/p1040883.jpg
00:39 rue_house repair of the knurling tool for my lathe
00:40 eless
00:40 rue_house http://eds.dyndns.org/~ircjunk/images/p1040884.jpg
00:41 rue_house do I need to zoom in?
00:41 rue_house kat, I used my numbers cause I dont know which of the 2n44-- is what
00:41 rue_house I guessed tip42 was I right?
00:42 rue_house I dont have values for the two resistors for driving the driver transistors
00:42 useless TIP42C TIP42 POWER TRANSISTOR PNP 100V 6A
00:42 rue_house I didn't put any reset resisotrs on the bases, so switching time is prolly blaaaafull
00:42 useless TIP41C TIP41 POWER TRANSISTOR NPN 100V 6A
00:42 rue_house so I got it right?
00:42 rue_house jennie, ^
00:43 rue_house I'm not sure on +- for the comparitor, its too late at night
00:43 eless nods, i was just rephrasing it from when i said it ear
00:43 rue_house ok I have to go to bed!
00:43 rue_house kat, please suggest circuit refinements/tuning
00:43 useless the comparator will shut off then oscillate
00:44 useless jennie has no +15v
00:44 useless i becha the input of the 339 doesn't include ground
00:45 useless where did you get +8 from?
00:45 jennie I have 8v battery
00:46 useless i did not know that
00:46 useless i thought this was a hd, and you had +5 and +12
00:46 jennie i have 12V battery too
00:46 jennie also I have computer PSU power supply
00:46 jennie i can get supply from that too
00:47 rue_house +5V
00:48 jennie or I can get from voltage regulator 7805
00:48 useless why +5 if she has +8 and +12?
00:48 rue_house kat, I dont know if that lower left transisotr will drop the divider enough to turn the lower driver completely off
00:48 rue_house +5 is the logic supply
00:48 useless so? lm339 isn't a logic chip
00:49 rue_house if I go over 5, I cant switch it off unless I stick Another npn in there
00:49 rue_house like you said, dosn't include ground
00:49 rue_house so maybe .7V is close enough
00:49 rue_house the operating votage is 1.5
00:49 rue_house oscillating, like you said
00:49 rue_house "pwm"
00:49 rue_house maybe should have a cap in there to limit osc freq?
00:50 rue_house oh, oh I see your point...
00:50 useless Low Output Saturation Voltage: 130 mV (Typ) @ 4.0 mA
00:50 rue_house hmm, why raise the voltage tho, if you can get 100mA from the 5V its more efficeint
00:51 rue_house +- the downstream linear regulator :)
00:51 useless what is making "phase high" ?
00:52 rue_house jennie, see what happens when we know too much?
00:52 jennie yeah
00:52 jennie :D
00:52 jennie it is so cool
00:52 rue_house kat, tahts the control signal for making the output high
00:52 jennie I also want to make that happen to me
00:52 rue_house cause we need high, pwm(low), or open
00:52 useless i mean is it a ttl, or cmos, or avr, or what?
00:52 rue_house jennie, how are you with transistors?
00:52 rue_house kat 0, 5V
00:53 rue_house microcontroller
00:53 rue_house jennie, http://eds.dyndns.org/~ircjunk/tutorials/elex/qwhathow.html
00:53 useless ok, small trick, make the 339 drive an npn, and put that npn tween the 2222 and the TIP42
00:54 e_house nod
00:54 jennie I know that transistors amplifies current
00:54 useless it will kill the base drive,,, altho that might not be of any help at all
00:55 useless told ya, midnite, my brain is off
00:55 rue_house kat, that means we can lose the base resistor on the tip41 right?
00:55 useless no, ignore that
00:55 useless you see the 339 oscillating tho, yeas?
00:56 rue_house its supposed to
00:56 rue_house that the "pwm current control"
00:56 useless ooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
00:56 useless happy accident
00:56 rue_house yea, there should be a large inductor in series above the current sense...
00:57 useless or a small R-C in the line in or out of the 339
00:58 rue_house out, in has a 1R impedence :)
00:58 useless i'd put it on the input to the 339, so the 339 can still toggle the transistors fast
00:58 rue_house mmm thats a good point...
00:58 rue_house how about a feedback cap from out to the ref voltage input?
00:58 useless emitter-resistor --- 10k -- .01 -- 339input
00:59 rue_house k
00:59 useless either way, can't quibble with my brian off
00:59 rue_house got it
00:59 useless the RC on the input will set the toggle freq, but not change the toggle speed
00:59 rue_house jennie, you reading that article?
01:00 useless you don't need the transistors slow thru the active regieon
01:00 rue_house yea
01:00 rue_house I should add BE resistors to the transitors tho eh?
01:00 rue_house 100k?
01:01 jennie yes
01:01 jennie I amreading
01:02 useless fwiw, the UF series is bloody fast for clamping, the UF5401 is 3amp and 400v, clamps in 50ns, the 1N4004 is slow as mud in the millisec range
01:02 rue_house and the 4004 is only rated 1A :)
01:02 useless be resistors if it's khz, i wouldn't bother at 60hz, even square wave
01:03 useless iirc there is a UF4004 1amp 400v that's fast too
01:03 rue_house isn't there a BAT5401 ?
01:04 rue_house gnight
01:04 useless bat5407, 9, etc,, i think a BAT5401 was a transistor?
01:05 useless yeas, thee is a UF4004
01:05 useless qty 50 for $1.87
01:06 useless qty 100 for $380
01:06 useless qty 100 for $3.80
01:06 useless so cost isn't an issue to using the UF series for clamping instead of the 1N series
01:08 useless ...
01:09 useless [00:50] <rue_house> isn't there a BAT5401 ?
01:09 useless [00:51] <rue_house> gnight
01:09 useless no time for an answer, and i did anyhow, and rue isn't here to read it, and won't scroll back in the morning,,,, i wasted my time again
01:09 useless and he wonders why i wouldn't feel like joking in here
01:09 useless shit
01:09 rue_bed in and out
06:06 jennie hi
08:36 jennie hi
09:10 jennie hello
09:10 jennie rue_house: hi
09:11 rue_house hi
09:11 jennie hey
09:11 jennie welcome back
09:11 jennie what are directions for me ?
09:12 jennie I asked and confirmed that there are Tip41 TIP 42 available here
09:14 rue_house looks like 3 tip41, 3 tip42, get 10 or so 1n4004 (they will survive for now, get bat5401 if you can) a bunch of (12 or so) PN2222 and 2n3906 (cuase I dont know the other numbers, and lost them in the scroolback) maybe 2 Lm339 bunch of 1K resistors
09:14 rue_house ...
09:15 rue_house some 2k resistors (10?) atleast 3 2k pots (litte trim pots) some (10?) .01 ceramic capacitors, some (10+?) 10k resistors
09:15 rue_house some 2W 1ohm resistors
09:16 rue_house (3), some 1W resistors close to 73 and 45 ohms
09:16 rue_house there will be extra parts... beats running out
09:16 rue_house if you want to do any electronics later it helps to have a stock of parts
09:17 jennie yes sure
09:17 jennie and how do I connect them all ?
09:17 rue_house did you see the schematic I posted
09:17 rue_house ?
09:17 jennie no dear :-(
09:17 jennie when ?
09:17 rue_house http://eds.dyndns.org/~ircjunk/images/p1040884.jpg
09:19 jennie BAT5401 is which part ?
09:19 rue_house bat5401 <->1n4004
09:22 jennie oik Lm339 is also available
09:23 jennie hey but this schematic have two inputs and two outputs , what about third one ?
09:23 jennie I have to connect PIC to this schematic or the L293D driver IC outputs ?
09:27 jennie ok got it
09:27 rue_house that is 1/3 the whole motor driver
09:27 rue_house the l293 are not part of it
09:29 jennie I have to make three circuits like that so 3 LM339 will be needed
09:29 jennie ?
09:30 rue_house the lm339 is to do the current limiting
09:31 jennie yes but in above parts list you said that 'maybe 2 Lm339' so I thought only 2 are needed
09:33 rue_house 1 to use, 1 to accidently blow up
09:33 rue_house with maybe 1 left for antoher project
09:33 rue_house this is just kinda sketched togethor, I havn't tested it...
09:34 rue_house we think it'll work
09:36 jennie then how to find out that we can make it run motor or not ?
09:38 jennie also what are values are of Resistors at TIP 41 and TIP 42 base ?
09:40 rue_house oh, thats the "close to 73 ohms and close to 45 ohms"
09:41 rue_house if it needs adjusting what is needed should be in the spare parts I'v built into that list
09:42 rue_house if you would like to wait, ic an build the circuit and try it
09:44 jennie Sorry got DC
09:44 jennie jennie then how to find out that we can make it run motor or not ?
09:44 jennie jennie also what are values are of Resistors at TIP 41 and TIP 42 base ?
09:44 rue_house <rue_house> oh, thats the "close to 73 ohms and close to 45 ohms"
09:44 rue_house <rue_house> if it needs adjusting what is needed should be in the spare parts I'v built into that list
09:44 rue_house <rue_house> if you would like to wait, ic an build the circuit and try it
09:48 jennie cant simulator tells us about working of this design ?
09:48 rue_house only if you only ever want it to work in a simulator
09:48 rue_house :)
09:50 rue_house things you want to work in the real world, have to be designed there.
09:51 jennie and later it can be run from 12v supply too instead of 8v ?
09:53 rue_house yes
09:54 jennie ok I am going to buy those parts now
09:54 jennie I will be back in 40 minutes
09:54 rue_house I have to leave for work for 8 hours
09:54 jennie till then I will make that circuit at veroboard
09:54 jennie I can wait 8 hours
09:54 rue_house there are two inputs on the lm339, I'm not sure which way they go
09:55 jennie http://www.engineersgarage.com/sites/default/files/LM339_1.jpg?1281348280
09:55 jennie I have to use pin 4,5, and 2 ?
09:55 rue_house I meant int he circuit
09:55 rue_house getting it wrong will not limit the current :)
09:55 rue_house needs to be tested as its built
09:56 jennie oh
09:56 jennie I am not expert to test as its built
09:57 rue_house I can help if we make it togethor
10:00 jennie_ so what about Lm339 connection ? do we need to test whole circuit before putting it in ?
10:01 rue_house there are various tests along the way
10:02 rue_house you have a multimeter?
10:02 jennie__ but I do not have scope
10:02 rue_house you dont need one
10:03 jennie__ I have digital multimeter and LC meter
10:03 jennie__ http://cometinstruments.com/image/cache/data/v8222h-500x500.JPG
10:03 jennie__ this is my meter
10:04 rue_house nice one
10:05 jennie__ and you will be online after 8 hours after work to work with this circuit ?
10:05 rue_house hmm I dont think I have any appointments after work today
10:06 jennie__ ok then , I am going to buy parts and i will assemble three circuits like that without lm339
10:07 jennie__ and when you will come after 8 hours we will do tests and put lm339, ok ?
10:07 jennie__ of course and make it work too :-)
10:11 jennie__ gone ?
10:12 rue_house just about
10:12 jennie__ what about the plan :D ?
10:12 rue_house sounds good
10:12 rue_house you have to remind me when I get back
10:12 jennie__ Sure!
10:13 jennie__ after 8 hours ?
16:41 jennie h
16:41 jennie hi
16:41 useless-afk h
16:41 useless-afk he
16:41 jennie hey
16:41 useless-afk hello
16:41 jennie how are you
16:42 useless-afk same ole same ole
16:42 jennie http://eds.dyndns.org/~ircjunk/images/p1040884.jpg , i got all of these parts
16:42 useless-afk can't eat or drink atm, jaw is still numb from dentist
16:43 jennie what happened at teeth
16:43 jennie ?
16:43 useless-afk you got 1N4004 instead of the UF4004 or BAT4004?
16:44 useless-afk simple cavity, 3 weeks ago had 2 molars pulled, one broke, the other was about to
16:44 jennie I havent got 1n4004, I got 1n4007, 1n4148 and BAT5408 only
16:45 eless-afk
16:47 jennie so which one to use ?
16:47 jennie BAT5408 ?
16:47 useless-afk i am not familiar with the BAT stuff, and since rue will be the one troubleshooting and helping you, i need to leave it up to him
16:49 jennie you took medication ?
16:49 jennie for jaw
16:49 useless-afk only the shot so far
16:49 useless-afk do i seem woozey to you, or something?
16:50 eless-afk looks conce
16:50 jennie probably
16:50 eless-afk isn't hurting (
17:03 useless-afk Alabama Power Wednesday Update: 35,800 still without service
17:04 useless-afk Updated: Wednesday, March 20, 2013 5:05 PM EST
17:04 useless-afk Alabama Power reported at 6 a.m. Wednesday that it had restored service to 174,400 customers statewide after strong storms knocked power out to over 200,000 homes on Monday.
17:08 useless-afk munged news : Marines killed in training were young, lives ahead, just a year or so out of high school, their boyish faces not yet weathered by life's hardships, and they were training to kill other boys just a year or so out of high school, their boyish faces not yet weathered by life's hardships, and they were training to kill other boys just a year or so out of high school, their boyish faces not yet weathered by life's hardships,
17:18 useless-afk i simply reject news written to tug at emotions over the young dead Marines, when they exist only to kill other young Marines of other countries, where they'll write the same emotion-tugging news lines
17:29 jennie ok
19:20 rue_house jennie is out of luck, I have to go back to work
19:21 rue_house yea, dont need any news like that
19:49 rue_house msg Lolina8088 hey there?
19:49 rue_house arg
19:52 Lolina8088 Hallo!
19:52 Lolina8088 I'm in such pain... but it's good pain. :)
19:53 rue_house hah oh dear
19:53 Lolina8088 I'm going back tomorow too.
19:53 rue_house going for broke eh?
19:54 Lolina8088 Oh yeah.
20:15 Tom_itx good pain?
20:40 Lolina8088 Roller Derby Pain. :)
20:43 eless-afk wants to k
21:02 useless-afk so the trick to making the "liquid metal" terminator is really just oobleck and some ultrasonic speakers
21:14 eless-afk runs the solar panels backwards to lite up the
21:32 useless-afk who knew? "MOZAT Studio 2.1. MoML, an extension to HTML, is the predominant markup language for Morange applications."
22:24 Lolina8088 useless-afk, I've just gone back to roller derby, I was on the team two years ago, and last night was my first night back.
22:39 useless-afk ah
22:40 useless-afk it was all i could do to make it around the rink, if no one touched me, and i didn't look up
22:43 useless-afk i wasn't enough of a masochist to keep trying that, at least water skiing wasn't so painful
22:43 Lolina8088 Oh I love it! It's like flying on the ground. :) And the women we meet, I'd never meet the same group of women anywhere else.
22:44 Lolina8088 So far (knock on wood) I havn't had a major injury, just a few minor ones.
22:44 useless-afk of course not, take a special person to go out and accept being knocked to the hardwood floor and land on your teeth
22:45 useless-afk i did play soccer, which with a few teams was a lot like rugby (broken collarbones, legs, arms)
22:45 useless-afk i got knocked out a few times
22:45 useless-afk when a concussion kept me out of work, i decided i had to give that up
22:45 Lolina8088 I had been asked to join a rugby team once. But I'm not that interested in mud.
22:45 useless-afk play when it's dry
22:46 Lolina8088 dusty. meh.
22:46 useless-afk women's rugby around Atlanta was rougher than any men's teams
22:46 useless-afk soccer wasn't bad
22:46 useless-afk a few teams were rough, indoor teams got rough
22:47 useless-afk but it was fun enough i would do 2 or 3 practices a week and two games on weekends
22:47 eless-afk was young, athletic, and having
22:48 Lolina8088 Lots and lots of fun. :)
22:48 useless-afk yep
22:49 useless-afk work hard, play hard, and even relax hard
22:49 Lolina8088 hhe hehe hee I totally agree.
22:51 Lolina8088 Hey... how come the useless designation? Seems like you're anything but.
22:52 useless-afk seems to me i am useless, especially in real life
22:52 Lolina8088 You live in Alabama, yes?
22:53 useless-afk i exist here, it's not living
22:53 Lolina8088 could you come to visit here?
22:53 Lolina8088 in BC?
22:53 useless-afk i wish
22:53 Lolina8088 too far?
22:54 useless-afk i couldn't live there, Canadia is allowing long term visas on;y if sponsored in a desireable and approved job
22:54 Lolina8088 yeah... Canadia is a funny place... heh
22:54 useless-afk and it's a 3 day drive, or a real pricey flight, and i am broke after that fiasco attempted move to Florida
22:54 Lolina8088 but couldn't you come to just visit, just for a short while?
22:54 useless-afk can't afford it
22:55 Lolina8088 What if we turn it into a working vacation?
22:55 useless-afk i have no work
22:55 Lolina8088 not now you don't, but maybe we could figure something out.
22:56 useless-afk you have too many jobs up there?
22:57 useless-afk there's enough people out of work here, there is no way anyone will hire a disabled person for anything
22:57 Lolina8088 You drive, I'm sure... well... maybe we could find something you could deliver to Seattle or something... it's a hop skip from there to here
22:57 useless-afk you want me to courier stuff?
22:57 Lolina8088 no, I want to meet you.
22:58 Lolina8088 :)
22:58 useless-afk oh
22:58 Lolina8088 I'm just throwing around ideas, so you could come up to visit. I know Rue would just love it.
22:58 useless-afk wait, i'm confused,, if you want to meet me in BC, why do i need to deliver something to Seattle?
22:59 Lolina8088 we live about 4 hours away from seattle
22:59 useless-afk btw, i am not young or athletic anymore, i'm 57 and overweight and generally malnourished
23:00 Lolina8088 coming through the boarder with stuff is hassle. I don't want you to have to be hassled. plus chances are that maybe someone might want a boat or something.
23:00 Lolina8088 well then, I'll have to make you a nice supper when you get here.
23:00 useless-afk the hassle i got over having a garden has made me afraid to have veggies or fruit here
23:01 useless-afk but i have a few indoor garden plants sprouting, i intend to plant on the roof again this year
23:02 useless-afk if i can get veggies back into my diet, i am fairly sure i can lose weight
23:02 Lolina8088 let them be affraid. you've probably got more character in your pinky than most of your local residents.
23:03 Lolina8088 I saw some great upside down tomato planters made out of grape juice cans
23:03 useless-afk prolly, but psychopathic bullies with attack dogs beats character any day
23:04 Lolina8088 you know they are scared. scared for themselves, scared of what you represent, scared of everything.
23:04 useless-afk i have years of accumulated 2 liter bottles, i had a marginally ok garden one year planting in them, i think the solution is actually the solution in automatic watering
23:04 Lolina8088 like a drip irrigation system?
23:05 useless-afk i started a jig yesterday to hold 60 bottles in a rack for small plants like shorty carrots, shallots/babyonions, small peppers, baby beans, etc
23:05 useless-afk yeas
23:06 Lolina8088 my mom does something... it's a two litre cut inhalf, funnel inserted into the base, with a wicking system. You can see when they don't have water
23:06 useless-afk plus recovering the water dripping out the bottom, and maybe auto-weighing the jig every day before and after watering to measure water use and retention
23:07 useless-afk i do it the other way round, i cut the bottom off, and punch holes in it, and push it into the upside down top
23:07 useless-afk going to try not using the bottom at all this yr, just some leftover plastic window screen
23:08 useless-afk it's like combining flood tray irrigation with drip irrigation
23:09 Lolina8088 sounds easy to maintain once you get the system going!
23:09 useless-afk i found if the soil is really dry at the end of a hot day onthe roof, the water pushing up (flood irrigation) can actually push all the dirt and plant up
23:10 useless-afk if a pot doesn't accept water the way i have it now, it should weigh less, which i can detect examine why
23:10 useless-afk anyhow, it's gardening on the roof on the cheap, and really dense
23:11 Lolina8088 what do you use for plant food?
23:11 useless-afk commercial yard fertilizer
23:11 useless-afk buy on sale, apply twice a yr
23:12 useless-afk did you see my garden pics?
23:12 Lolina8088 nope
23:12 Lolina8088 can you show me?
23:12 useless-afk http://designerthinking.com/garden.html
23:13 useless-afk the system for this yr uses smaller and half/cost pipe than the last pic on that page
23:14 useless-afk that l;ast pic was like 1997(?), the last yr i could do what i wanted, like have a garden on my own 12 acres of property
23:14 useless-afk the grapes were not pruned for 10 yrs because of dogs
23:15 useless-afk i should update that page
23:15 useless-afk DesignerThinking.com/images/garden/Oct042012-1-redtomato.JPG
23:16 useless-afk DesignerThinking.com/images/garden/Oct042012-2m.jpg
23:17 useless-afk the cherry tomatoes on the balcony in back had tomatoes even past the first couple of frosts
23:17 Lolina8088 Oh those tomatos are so healthy!
23:17 useless-afk those wer the hardest to keep watered, they didn't do well
23:18 useless-afk learning expereince, one healthy tomatoe plant = 2 unhealthy plants
23:18 useless-afk the ground here is horrible too, instead of being able to tend it with lime etc the last 15 yrs, i've been allowed to do nothing
23:19 useless-afk the tomatoes were *very* tastey too
23:19 useless-afk beans didn't do well, nothing else came up last year
23:20 Lolina8088 shoot... baby is awake... bbiab
23:20 useless-afk k
23:22 useless-afk i have a lot of that fence left over, the fence i used for tomatoe cages, because i put up $1200 of it around the property, and the neighbors switched to smaller dogs that just walked thru the fence
23:32 Lolina8088 I think you should get a great big dog. A bull mastif. Who likes children and hates other dogs.
23:34 rue_house Lolina8088, you dont even want to joke about that one with kat
23:34 Lolina8088 It's not a joke.
23:34 useless-afk no