#garfield Logs

Mar 19 2013

10:00 eless has returned from the 12th century, power is back on, water floweth magically from pipes as desired, the intertubes delivers d
10:02 useless there was 1/2 inch and briefly 1 inch hail, and all manner of tree manipulations, including trees hanging freely upside down up in the powerlines
13:16 useless-afk Mortar explosion in Nev. kills 7 NC unit Marines <<== i hope xhanx is ok
18:17 Lola8088 useless-afk, how did you fair the hail? Any nasty damage?
19:55 useless-afk fair the hail?
19:56 useless-afk fare the hail?
19:56 useless-afk it was noisey
19:56 useless-afk [09:45] *** Now talking in #garfield
19:56 useless-afk 09:45:39am 03/19/13 Tuesday
19:56 useless-afk I joined
19:56 useless-afk [09:47] * useless has returned from the 12th century, power is back on, water floweth magically from pipes as desired, the intertubes delivers datas
19:56 useless-afk [09:49] <useless> there was 1/2 inch and briefly 1 inch hail, and all manner of tree manipulations, including trees hanging freely upside down up in the powerlines
19:57 useless-afk west and south of me the storms moved more slowly, they stayed put and did more damage
19:58 useless-afk Al pwr co says at peak, 250,000 were without power
19:58 useless-afk they say all will have pwr back on in the next 2 days
20:27 rue_house did you lose power?
20:32 Tom_itx hmmm
20:33 Tom_itx let's see here... she be on the interweb
20:33 Tom_itx that requires power
20:33 rue_house did, past context
20:33 Tom_itx leak is fixed
20:34 Tom_itx $.50 o ring did it
20:34 rue_house cool
20:34 Tom_itx instead of their $25 part
20:34 Tom_itx you saw the fitting
20:35 rue_house nope
20:36 Tom_itx http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/rue/tranny/DSC_0001.JPG
20:36 Tom_itx the clip is all that holds the tube in
20:36 rue_house EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEvil
20:36 rue_house its threaded tho, you can change it for a flange fitting
20:37 rue_house er, flare
20:37 Tom_itx but then i need a whole new hose etc
20:37 Tom_itx it's fixed for now
20:37 Tom_itx got a Viton o ring for it
20:37 rue_house did it have a good reason for failing?
20:37 Tom_itx not blue
20:37 Tom_itx no idea, the dealer said the early design leaked
20:38 Tom_itx the new part didn't look much different
20:38 Tom_itx i got the part and took it back after the o ring worked
20:39 rue_house it looks like it seals on the little blue ring on the inside, radial seal
20:39 Tom_itx it does
20:39 Tom_itx that's the o ring
20:39 Tom_itx i replaced that
20:39 rue_house mm
20:39 Tom_itx instead of buying the whole damn thing
20:40 rue_house me and the robotics kid were calculating the force on a 1/4" pipe at 60psi
20:40 rue_house then we took a scale to observe just how much force that was
20:40 rue_house it proved that the barb we made probably didn't need a zapstrap
20:40 Tom_itx area x pressure
20:40 rue_house yep
20:41 rue_house then convert to metric
20:41 Tom_itx or in that case divided
20:41 Tom_itx since it's fractional
20:41 jennie hi
20:41 Tom_itx hello jennie
20:41 Tom_itx you are awfully quiet
20:41 rue_house he;s workin on a 3 phase motor driver
20:42 Tom_itx i have one in the shop
20:42 rue_house jennie, for a hard drive?
20:42 Tom_itx from the washer
20:42 rue_house heh
20:42 Tom_itx any idea how the serial works on it?
20:42 Tom_itx to drive the pwm
20:42 rue_house serial on what?
20:42 Tom_itx it uses a serial interface to drive the driver
20:43 Tom_itx for step and direction
20:43 rue_house ooo
20:43 Tom_itx or pulse whaever
20:43 rue_house the one I got is just an all-in-one controller
20:43 Tom_itx same here
20:43 Tom_itx but it has input
20:43 Tom_itx separate controller board for the cycles
20:43 rue_house dont know
20:43 Tom_itx this is just the motor driver
20:43 Tom_itx i got the whole harness
20:44 Tom_itx with all the goods
20:44 Tom_itx i can bench test it
20:44 jennie http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/12460353/img/Anonymous/DD.jpg
20:44 rue_house jennie, any difference at 8V?
20:45 rue_house Tom_itx, its 3 tristate drivers
20:45 rue_house seem to need that for 3wire, 3 phase
20:45 rue_house Its from a chip datasheet for a 3 phase motor
20:45 rue_house I closed all those tabs tho
20:45 jennie something else went bad in circuit
20:45 jennie let me find out
20:46 Tom_itx i could see what chip is inside but it likely has a generic in house number on it
20:46 Tom_itx jennie are you aussie?
20:47 Tom_itx do you know thebear?
20:47 rue_house Tom_itx, its a 3 phase motor controller,
20:48 rue_house there is a micro on the baord too, everything that isn't 3 phase motor driver is io buffering for the controller
20:48 Tom_itx i have the whole service manual for it
20:48 rue_house some pretty crude buffering too
20:48 rue_house w/schematic?
20:48 jennie I know the theber
20:48 Tom_itx not the controller
20:53 rue_house ok I'll be back in a few hours
21:59 jennie hello
22:00 jennie the HDD is running automatically at 8v Vc
22:00 jennie but Rpm is slow
22:01 jennie also 10ohm are getting hot
22:39 eless-afk cusses at the spilled protons on the utility room f
22:40 useless-afk they are gonna damage the plywood floor, but lucky me(HAH) didn't hit the electrical panel
22:55 rue_house WHO SPILLED PROTONS!
22:57 rue_house jennie, ok, reduce the delay
22:57 jennie welcome back
22:57 rue_house the 10 ohm will get cooler at "the right" speed
22:57 jennie delay is 10ms right now
22:58 rue_house k, try going down more
22:58 jennie then it wont start at its own, I tried 5ms
22:58 jennie then at 5ms I have to spin by hadn
22:58 rue_house ah
22:58 jennie hand*]
22:58 rue_house yea, too much clip
22:58 rue_house slip
22:58 rue_house the trick is that you dont have a current controller
22:59 rue_house they are supposed to be operated under current control
22:59 rue_house your at 0.8A/channel which is technically over what the drivers rated for
22:59 jennie without 10ohm there is 0.5A at 10us delay
22:59 jennie at 7.5V
23:00 jennie but still motor is slow at RPM
23:00 rue_house it must have more poles than I thoguht
23:00 jennie driver IC are rated for 1.25A peak current
23:00 jennie per channel
23:00 rue_house isn't the L298 0.5A/channel?
23:01 jennie yes
23:01 jennie it is 0.6A per channel
23:01 jennie and 1.25 peak current
23:01 rue_house peak is a garbage number
23:02 rue_house hmm
23:02 rue_house doing better current control gets complex
23:03 jennie ok
23:03 jennie what to do now ? any other solution
23:11 useless currrent control is merely a transistor, resistor, and some voltage source
23:12 jennie ok
23:16 rue_house yes, that and you have to get better drivers
23:16 jennie better in what sense ?
23:16 rue_house more current
23:16 jennie how much more ?
23:16 rue_house its not that the motor pulls a lot of power, it just needs high current pulses
23:17 rue_house not sure, maybe 1.5A
23:17 rue_house if you dont mind risking the chips you have, you can use smaller Vc resistors
23:18 jennie bu t I tried connecting 12v @ 35Ah battery to Vc of driver chip for a fraction of second and AMps reading went to 12A or so
23:18 rue_house yup
23:18 rue_house Ah is the size of the gas tank
23:19 useless a fancy buffered precicision variable 3-phase current source : http://designerthinking.com/images/3ph-cs.GIF
23:19 rue_house a 1Ah lead acid battery will put out 1A for about 20 minutes
23:19 jennie and at 7.5V @ 5Ah battery the motor is running without Vc resistors @ 0.5A
23:19 rue_house you can merge them like that?
23:19 useless ?
23:19 rue_house hm
23:20 rue_house did you say you had measured the resistance of the motor coils?
23:20 jennie yes
23:20 jennie it is 6ohms
23:20 rue_house how many ohms?
23:20 rue_house hmm
23:20 jennie between all three wires
23:20 rue_house and its a hard drive motor?
23:20 jennie yes
23:20 rue_house hmm
23:21 jennie http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/12460361/img/Anonymous/drive-motor.jpg
23:21 useless you can't pull current based on the dc resistance when you are driving them with ac
23:21 rue_house jennie, yep
23:21 rue_house kat, I'm pretty sure the current gets up to its dc equiv pretty quick
23:21 useless the ac inpedance will be higher than the dc resistance
23:22 rue_house at 60Hz...
23:22 useless is it a brushed motor?
23:22 rue_house on a small motor like that
23:22 rue_house no, its a hard drive motor
23:22 useless 60hz? ouch, the poor thing
23:22 useless why 60hz instead of 10khz ?
23:23 rue_house jennie, I have an oscilloscope, I'm thinking of taking a working drive and measuring the signals on the motor
23:23 rue_house but I cant tonight
23:23 jennie ok
23:23 rue_house I have to make supper, sleep, wake up, and go to work
23:23 useless is that all?
23:23 rue_house but I can do it for you tommorow
23:23 jennie so I have to buy new driver chips ?
23:24 rue_house or pull a 3 phase driver chip out of something
23:24 rue_house 3 phase current controlled
23:24 jennie new driver chips wont work ?
23:24 jennie if I get for high amps ratings ?
23:25 useless thing is, unless the ide has a voltage convertor on it, the motor can't pull more current than the whole hd originally did
23:25 rue_house if you get the right one, yea
23:25 rue_house I think the objective is to make a controller capable of running the motor
23:25 useless i understand that
23:26 rue_house I need to get making supper....
23:26 rue_house remind me tommorow and I'll scope a working drive
23:26 jennie I will look for high amps driver IC , if I do not get in my market then can we do it with transistors ?
23:26 useless if the hd was pulling 500ma at 12v and 500ma at 5v, then the motor can't be rated at more than 500ma
23:26 rue_house jennie, out of curiosity, what was the make of the drive?
23:26 jennie seagate
23:26 rue_house k
23:26 jennie 5,7 year old drive
23:27 rue_house approx year? 90-something?
23:27 jennie no 2000
23:27 rue_house k
23:27 eless notes her words aren't makeing any diffeence in the conversation, so she shuts the hel
23:27 rue_house kat, I hear ya,
23:27 jennie so if I do not get high amps driver IC then should I buy transistors ?
23:27 rue_house what you said makes sense, there is nothing to comment about it
23:27 jennie transistors cant do the job ?
23:27 eless deleted the 3ph-cs shem
23:27 rue_house yes, but you may need a bunch of them ;)
23:28 useless 6 = "a bunch"
23:28 rue_house and op-amps
23:28 rue_house lm324 or such
23:28 rue_house maybe lm339
23:28 rue_house kat, is 339 the quad comparitor?
23:28 useless yeas
23:29 rue_house I'm thinking pwm on the top 3 drivers, otherwise like you had
23:29 useless if you use darlingtons, drive them from logic chips
23:29 rue_house need to drive them all seperate, each totem pole needs low, high, and open
23:29 useless TIP102 / 107, or non-darling TIP41 / 42
23:30 rue_house jennie, ^^^
23:30 jennie only these ?
23:30 rue_house I had an all npn totempole driver circuit somewhere
23:30 rue_house well, a signal pnp to turn something around
23:30 jennie anything else apart from above TIP transistors ?
23:31 rue_house there are transistors in computer power supplies that could work
23:31 jennie how many are needed ?
23:31 rue_house would you rather buy or scrounge?
23:31 useless the 102/107 is npn/pnp pair, the 41/42 is too
23:32 rue_house your driver above 5V, so you need more transistors for signal level stuff
23:32 rue_house I have to go make supper!
23:32 jennie after how many hours you will be back ?
23:32 useless 10 x TIP41C TIP41 POWER TRANSISTOR NPN 100V 6A by ST
23:32 useless Store: Thai Shine
23:32 useless Seller User Id: thaishine
23:32 useless Feedback: 99.9% positive, 34,634 reviews
23:32 useless The item is listed as a Top Rated Plus item
23:32 useless Time left: 22d 14h left4/11, 1PM
23:32 useless $3.99
23:34 useless the 41/42 will be 1/2 the price of the darlingtons, altho if you want them this month, you haveto buy in usa or Canadia, not asia
23:34 useless 10 x TIP42C TIP42 POWER TRANSISTOR PNP 100V 6A - USA SE...This seller accepts PayPal
23:34 useless Buy it now $3.99
23:34 useless Shipping:Free
23:35 useless so $8 shipped from usa for 10 pnp and 10 npn
23:35 useless they are 6amp 100v, you'll haveto try hard to blow them up,, but i still suggest heatsinks
23:36 jennie I have STP55nf06l , those will do ?
23:37 jennie http://in.mouser.com/ProductDetail/STMicroelectronics/STP55NF06L/?qs=RC432zO33OpfmDXU6gdaOw==
23:37 useless sure, if you can drive a mosfet
23:37 jennie http://in.mouser.com/ProductDetail/STMicroelectronics/STP55NF06L/?qs=RC432zO33OpfmDXU6gdaOw==
23:37 useless i know what they are
23:37 jennie ok
23:38 jennie what else is needed then
23:38 useless a 15v psu to drive their gates, and 3 half-bridges made of bipolar to-92 transistors
23:40 useless if you are going to buy more mosfets like that one, IRFZ44 is prolly tons cheaper
23:40 jennie but I do not 15V PSU, so i think this will not work for me
23:40 eless
23:41 useless mosfets neet 5v up to 12v on their gates, bipolars need only 0.6 to 1.5 (darlingtons)
23:41 useless power devices need even more
23:42 jennie look here , there are many motor drivers IC, I probably get at local store, please have a look http://www.st.com/web/en/catalog/sense_power/FM142/CL851/SC1791
23:42 jennie which one to look for
23:43 useless you must have a gigantic local store
23:45 jennie because it is far from my place , I will go once , I will ask for chip first, if chip is not there then I will buy TIP41/42
23:46 useless L6234 , L6235
23:46 useless even those are 2.5amp max, and i expect you are going to burn up that lil motor
23:46 useless they aren't made for 60hz
23:47 useless neither is the motor
23:48 jennie ok
23:48 jennie so chip is dropped
23:48 jennie now I will search only for TIP41/42
23:48 jennie how much of them ?
23:48 jennie how many to buy*
23:49 rue_house 3 each
23:49 useless for 3phase, you need 3 pullup and 3 pull down
23:49 rue_house also get 5 or 10 PN2222 (2n2222) and
23:49 rue_house kat, whats the pnp of that
23:49 rue_house 06 or 04?
23:49 useless jennie is gonna push more than 600ma into that motor rue, the 222's won't last
23:50 rue_house you need them to reflect the drive signal off the motor supply voltage
23:50 eless doesn't actually use 2n
23:50 rue_house its just base drivers for the power transistors
23:51 rue_house one of 2n3904 or 2n3906 is a pnp
23:51 useless 2n5551-npn / 2n5401-pnp 160v 500ma
23:51 rue_house 160V!
23:52 eless
23:52 useless but above 500ma i switch to to-220, just because of heat
23:52 rue_house ok I would say 2n2222(PN2222) and 2n3906, they are common parts, kats are prolly better
23:53 useless and above 12v across them , 500ma @10v = 5 watts, the to-92 will pop
23:53 rue_house no kat, its just for driving the bases!
23:53 useless 2n3904 is only 200ma
23:53 rue_house the base wont need 200mA
23:53 rue_house it'll need like what, 5?
23:54 useless ok, real cheap ones : 600ma@40v : 2n4401 or 02 are npn, 2n4402 or 03 are pnp,, you can get them 300 for $6 - $9
23:55 useless 2n3904 / 06 are 200ma , not are cheaper
23:55 useless err
23:55 useless 2n3904 / 06 are 200ma , but are cheaper
23:55 rue_house the 2n44-- are prolly more easily found in modern packages
23:55 eless can't cuss at the radio and type tech specs
23:55 rue_house worst case gain on the tip41 is 15,
23:56 rue_house you want to drive about 1.5A maybe
23:56 rue_house thats 100mA
23:56 useless mpsa64-pnp , mpsa25-npn are 500ma 30/40v darlingtons in to-92
23:56 rue_house wow
23:57 rue_house they need to switch 12V at 100mA
23:57 useless yeas, non-darlingtons can be current hogs
23:57 rue_house no drop, cause there would be a resistor for that
23:58 useless 12v@100ma , if that's dc and maybe 6v@100ma, that's 3 watts, again, the to-92 will pop
23:58 useless oops
23:58 useless 600mwatts
23:58 useless still too hot
23:58 useless afk a sec, killing the d34567845 radio