#avr Logs

Oct 28 2021

02:50 AM user____: Hi. Does any linux distro provide avr-gcc 12.0 ?
02:58 AM user____: I really HATE that there is no one page synopsys for release versions / notes. I keep hunting for them in obscure ftp / http file lists.
03:00 AM user____: Per link below, avr-libc supports avr-gcc up to avr-gcc version 5.x? 2017 info, still true? https://stackoverflow.com/questions/44604075/avr-gcc-version-gcc-release-versions-why
03:01 AM user____: Most up to date distribution packaged avr-gcc I can find is 11.x : https://archlinux.org/packages/community/x86_64/avr-gcc/
03:10 AM user____: Newest gcc-avr package in any Debian distribution is 5.4.0 (2017 vintage)
03:13 AM user____: Also, reading gcc release notes, by version, the above libc related limitation seems to only extend to avr-libc
03:19 AM user____: Looks like gcc v.7 adds important support relevant to attiny __variable___ attributes. Is this a known problem when using a lower version gcc? https://gcc.gnu.org/gcc-7/changes.html
03:25 AM user____: avr-gcc 8 adds several attiny devices and better support for ISRs including __gcc_isr
03:37 AM user____: ***
03:37 AM user____: Conclusion after reading avr-gcc release notes, less 12.0: one needs at least 8.4 9.3 or 10.1 for best attinty support (a la attiny404 and similar).
03:38 AM user____: Comments welcome, what version are you using please?
03:38 AM user____: Bleeding edge riders welcome to comment.
03:48 AM user____: ***
03:49 AM user____: Conclusion 2: consulting stock at digikey and others: Attiny824 844 is *highly* desirable, these parts can be programmed with a simple USB UART programmer and seem to be already supported in the arduino mode.
03:55 AM user____: ***
03:55 AM user____: Re: discussion yesterday: I wonder if this "TV" can be persuaded to render artifacts required for the demo discussed: https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/tinycircuits/ASK4002/13242752
03:56 AM user____: $75 is a little steep for such a small screen though.
03:58 AM user____: On second thought, no. No analog input, disappointed.
06:27 AM josuah: user____: you may compile avr-libc on your own if you lack recent device support, maybe it will work with a avr-gcc dated by a few minor versions
06:28 AM josuah: I wish there was better support for other kind of compiler for the AVR world, it is all 100% GCC right now
06:28 AM josuah: or maybe I am just ignorant :)
08:15 AM exp: josuah: i believe there's an llvm target but i don't know if it works or is maintained
08:47 AM user____: sdcc never targeted avr?
08:48 AM user____: These devices are supported by Arduino mode code generation and thus by the simple pyUPDI programmer https://github.com/mraardvark/pyupdi/blob/master/device/device.py
08:49 AM user____: So something, somewhere, DOES support these guys in avr-gcc, just very elusive to find out what.
08:52 AM user____: attiny824 etc are still missing, those are sub dollar and as capable as an 861
08:53 AM user____: With the py file above, it is easy to add them.
09:11 AM user____: https://github.com/SpenceKonde/megaTinyCore
09:13 AM user____: https://github.com/SpenceKonde/megaTinyCore -- this is the core these tinys use
09:23 AM twnqx: true, even my 11.2 doesn't list them
10:14 AM user____: Conclusion: after hours of ducking, I am none the wiser.
10:15 AM user____: xc8 Mchip compiler supports the 824 844 parts of course. I set up a test project and I can single step in it etc.
10:23 AM qu1j0t3: quack
10:40 AM user____: oink
10:41 AM twnqx: today is a sad day, as the NEC µPD9008D is either not the least 8087 compatible, instruction wise, or pure 16bit, and thus doesn't work with a V20.
10:41 AM twnqx: now i have to build a 16bit PC...
10:42 AM user____: Isn't V30 '286 ish?
10:42 AM twnqx: no, 8086
10:42 AM twnqx: v20 = 8088, v30 = 8086
10:42 AM user____: Ah ok/
10:42 AM user____: But there was a 286 like part from NEC, no?
10:43 AM twnqx: in the embedded realms, i think v40/v50 where somewhat
10:43 AM twnqx: were/are
10:43 AM user____: Never used, just "know" (50%)
10:43 AM twnqx: neither :P
10:44 AM twnqx: my first pc had a 386
10:44 AM user____: My first PC was an XT clone with V20
10:44 AM user____: But I had and built computers before that ;)
10:44 AM twnqx: i had a commodore 128 before that ;)
10:45 AM user____: I had a ZX80 kit built, 2nd hand, built an East Bloc Spectrum clone (72 TTL ICs to replace 1 ULA), etc.
10:45 AM twnqx: i am looking for a bulgarian machine :P
10:45 AM user____: And I eternally tinkered with an 8085 diy which never worked.
10:46 AM user____: Try an East German one?
10:46 AM twnqx: no, it's a very specific one, and i only want it for its PU
10:46 AM twnqx: CPU
10:46 AM user____: Or Romania, as mine.
10:46 AM user____: 1801 PDP11?
10:46 AM twnqx: It's a Pravetz 8088 clone
10:46 AM twnqx: CM688
10:46 AM user____: My Speccy clone used an East German Z80 clone
10:47 AM twnqx: yeah, RFT also built those
10:47 AM user____: U880A ?
10:47 AM twnqx: oh... wasn't even RFT
10:48 AM twnqx: but eh, i am collection 8086/8087/8088 chips :P
10:48 AM twnqx: collecting* damn my typos today
10:49 AM twnqx: and the CM688 is not much more than a rumor.. pravetz didn't survive the fall of the iron curtain, and the cm688 was mde just that year
10:49 AM twnqx: well, a tiny bit more than a rumor
10:50 AM twnqx: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0a/IZOT_1036C_motherboard_modification.JPG it's in this picture
10:52 AM twnqx: so i want an IZOT 1036C just for that CPU.
10:54 AM twnqx: i have asked a few bulgarian ebay sellers if they can get any... they all said no :(
10:54 AM twnqx: and they had a lot of Pravetz chips
10:56 AM user____: Back to AVR: anyone here used any of the things I linked today? UPDI mode? Arduino fw for '844 '824 ?
10:56 AM user____: What would you do with a CM688 if you had one?
10:58 AM user____: twnqx: ?
10:58 AM twnqx: a) test it, b) put it in the big coolection ESD box right next to the russian 1810vm86s :P
10:58 AM user____: Is your collection visible online somewhere?
10:58 AM twnqx: nope
10:58 AM twnqx: it's not that large, 40 (different) entries so far
11:07 AM twnqx: and a metric ton of china fakes of the same fastest V20H/V30H i am trying to get my hands on (16mhz variant)
11:10 AM twnqx: i now asked a friend in tokyo to purchase some japanese NOS inventory for me :S
11:20 AM josuah: user____: you were right about sdcc
11:20 AM josuah: > AVR and gbz80 ports are no longer maintained. -- http://sdcc.sourceforge.net/scratch/mlh/
11:20 AM josuah: so at least, it did support it before
12:59 PM user____: sdcc had (lame) support for pic16f which I used almost a decade ago. It was *lousy*.
01:00 PM user____: I think I patched the compiler for some reason I forget, made it work for me. Inline asm support iirc, was broken and I fixed it.
01:00 PM * user____ looks at ancient stuff
01:00 PM user____: 2016 was the last time I updated the patch.
05:35 PM rue_mohr: PIC has lame support for C
05:36 PM rue_mohr: hurtle yourself into the next generation and use an AVR
05:37 PM qu1j0t3: Protesting the Inevitability of C
05:37 PM rue_mohr: use the PICs for flasher, blinkers, and sequencers
05:37 PM rue_mohr: s
05:37 PM exp: what do people end up writing code for PICs in? some bastard C + assembler?
05:38 PM rue_mohr: PICs are garbage, I threw them all out
05:38 PM rue_mohr: they really only take assembler
05:38 PM rue_mohr: and then you get to deal with paged memory
05:38 PM exp: i've never written code for them directly
05:38 PM exp: but I have a product with a PIC handling a serial data stream
05:38 PM * qu1j0t3 has used C and asm on them
05:38 PM exp: except that it isn't
05:38 PM exp: i have a .hex file for it, and it's using all microchip reference stuff
05:39 PM rue_mohr: unfortunate
05:39 PM exp: i also have a sister unit which i haven't checked yet but should work as it has a serial # several thousand on
05:39 PM exp: so, hopefully they've not stored anything custom on the pic and it just needs a replacement part or re-flashing
05:41 PM rue_mohr: dont get me wrong, PICs paved the way, but we have MUCH easier chips to use now
05:41 PM rue_mohr: PICs were the arduino of their day
05:41 PM rue_mohr: everyone was getting into it, find new, crazy ways to use what they could do
05:42 PM exp: yeah this is a 90s-2000s product
05:42 PM exp: i took apart my CM15 Pro (an old X10 device) recently too and boy that's ugly as sin
05:42 PM rue_mohr: microchip had no interest in providing C to their consumers
05:42 PM rue_mohr: which is why atmel took over
05:43 PM rue_mohr: not sure what happened for microchip to end up buying them
05:43 PM rue_mohr: quite unfortunate, their company policies are awefull
05:43 PM exp: in theory risc-v brings the end of IP domination
05:43 PM exp: but we'll see
05:43 PM rue_mohr: and now their screwing up avrs just like I expected
05:44 PM exp: https://i.imgur.com/GieAepz.jpg
05:44 PM exp: *chefs kiss*
05:44 PM rue_mohr: there are better protocols than X10 eh?
05:45 PM exp: are there?
05:45 PM rue_mohr: stuff with more error checking when you get power glitches and noise?
05:45 PM exp: i mean X10 has its downsides
05:45 PM exp: but the entire IoT platform is built on rickety foundations
05:45 PM exp: a next gen powerline standard for ethernet workd out, just not for control, which is a shame
05:46 PM rue_mohr: thats a good point too, a esp8266/esp32 network is dead easy
05:46 PM exp: yeah i just set up about 14 of them
05:46 PM exp: had to dedicate an AP just to them
05:46 PM exp: or they dominate airtime too much
05:46 PM rue_mohr: I hope they were free
05:46 PM exp: they were not, but they were cheap enough
05:46 PM exp: https://www.mylocalbytes.com/products/smart-plug-pm-uk
05:46 PM rue_mohr: oh I mean the x10
05:46 PM exp: oh no i just have a few old ones
05:46 PM rue_mohr: they only create as much traffic as you make them take
05:47 PM exp: wifi clients connect to MQTT
05:47 PM exp: which is implemented over... tcp
05:47 PM exp: with another qos layer on top
05:47 PM exp: so you've literally 4+ layers of communication just to send "Power: Off"
05:47 PM rue_mohr: it happens in how many us?
05:47 PM exp: some small number
05:48 PM rue_mohr: mhm
05:48 PM exp: but APs can talk to one or two clients at once
05:48 PM exp: anyway, zigbee/zwave also decent, but with their own downsides
05:48 PM exp: i hate how they're all wired despite the device having a wired connection
05:48 PM rue_mohr: wifi is cheper
05:49 PM exp: cheaper, more ubiquitous, can work just with smartphone and AP
05:49 PM exp: anyway https://fccid.io/B4SCM15A/Schematics/Exhibit-B-Schematics-per-2-1033-b5-347598.pdf is this board
05:49 PM exp: R1 is the one that blew and took that trace with it
05:49 PM exp: a 1/2W rated resistor shoved into the corner of a case and experiencing 1.2W peak loads
05:50 PM exp: something on the rectified side is dead too, as it only uses battery
05:50 PM exp: this was designed by the company that invented X10 some 30 years later
05:50 PM exp: and they were shipping this... quality
05:51 PM exp: it makes me feel better about what I ship lol
06:03 PM exp: I'd be definitely interested in any opinions about why they put C1 there
06:04 PM exp: what they've made, with a low enough ESR, is a charge pump
06:04 PM exp: and i checked through simulation and yep it's easy to see that way over 35V between sides
08:13 PM rue_mohr: dont do smartphone apps unless you intend to rewrite the software for every new os of every phone
08:13 PM rue_mohr: otherwise your literally designing garbage
08:13 PM rue_mohr: e-waste
08:13 PM rue_mohr: and the world doesn't need that
08:14 PM rue_mohr: they were making money
08:15 PM rue_mohr: how you do that, is to make a crap product, that appears to work, you hype it up and sell it to the executives of a big corp saying its gonna revolutionalize the world
08:15 PM rue_mohr: they pay you a shitload of money for it and you ditch fast
08:15 PM rue_mohr: when they discover its shit, they to the same to another coperation
08:15 PM rue_mohr: I see it over and over and over
08:16 PM rue_mohr: two great examples are Edwards fire alarm equipment, and beghelli emergency lights
10:04 PM exp: rue_mohr: honestly it's weirder than that, that board is in the same enclosure as a modern smt 433mhz radio package
10:04 PM exp: there's no way it's cheaper to do 40+ through hole parts
10:04 PM exp: and the giant transformer they use instead of a capacitive dropper or similar
10:04 PM exp: it does nothing except provide voltage rails, yet it's 80% of the mass and about 15% of the board space
10:05 PM exp: then when it does land, the AC side is the other side of the board, so there's two sets of fly leads to the transformer
10:05 PM exp: it's like someone laid it out in the 80s and they never bothered to redo any part of it
10:05 PM exp: maybe they made a few tens of thousands of boards and never ran out, but it's got a more modern cypress usb chip (which has the least well matched usb traces i've ever seen)
10:16 PM rue_mohr: mhm
10:26 PM Rab: Microchip now provides a free C compiler for PIC as part of their MPLAB� XC package.
10:26 PM rue_mohr: yea, they realized they were being put out of the game
10:28 PM Rab: I dug into the Linux installer for XC8, since I was curious how they were supporting both PIC and AVR with the one "compiler". Turns out XC8 installs two completely independant toolchains: avr-gcc for AVR, and something else for PIC. I didn't recognize the PIC compiler, but it looked proprietary.
10:29 PM rue_mohr: yes, and I'm told its crap