#avr Logs
May 24 2021
#avr Calendar
07:57 AM PublicWiFi: is swapping pins to input "z-state" enough or should I actually buffer them
08:09 AM kline: PublicWiFi, you might have more luck on libera.chat
08:12 AM PublicWiFi: ty kline
08:12 AM kline: PublicWiFi, the same applies for #arduino
08:12 AM PublicWiFi: ty!
08:13 AM kline: (and tbh pretty much everything, thats just another channel i share with you)
08:13 AM PublicWiFi: ^^
08:13 AM PublicWiFi: Yeah i've been hanging out in both servers
08:14 AM PublicWiFi: but I'd like to see all of my favorites move
08:14 AM kline: who are you waiting for still?
08:29 AM PublicWiFi: well ##electronics is still half and half haha
08:29 AM PublicWiFi: and I don't think ##windows-server moved but I need to double check them
08:36 AM vmt: PublicWiFi: 3 things
08:37 AM PublicWiFi: whats up
08:37 AM vmt: ddr bit to 0, port bit to 0 -> high-z
08:37 AM vmt: well that's the first 2
08:37 AM vmt: 3) ignore kline
08:37 AM PublicWiFi: LOL
08:38 AM PublicWiFi: also disable pullups too yeah?
08:38 AM twnqx: port pibt to 0 is what meant over on libera wrt "turn off pullups"
08:38 AM PublicWiFi: nice
08:38 AM PublicWiFi: you guys rock
08:38 AM twnqx: it's exactly that, if your pin is input
08:38 AM vmt: if you've got the pin as an input, port bit to 1 is pullup
08:38 AM PublicWiFi: vmt: why are you sticking around freenode? hoenst question I promise
08:38 AM vmt: anyway, step 3 is the most important one
08:38 AM PublicWiFi: no politics or anyhting just curious haha
08:39 AM vmt: PublicWiFi: i'm on both networks, but namely on freenode because IT'S_NOT_A_FUCKING_BIG_DEAL(tm)
08:39 AM twnqx: (yet)
08:39 AM PublicWiFi: hahaha
08:39 AM vmt: (sure)
08:39 AM PublicWiFi: I'm not CRAZY about all the hype but I would rather be on libera I think
08:39 AM kline: im not going to fight it further, i was just pointing it out when someone didnt get an answer
08:40 AM PublicWiFi: :P
08:40 AM kline: but if people want to see what other projects think about it: https://netsplit.de/channels/?net=freenode&chat=libera
08:40 AM PublicWiFi: thanks for the reply
08:40 AM vmt: no biggie
08:40 AM PublicWiFi: kline: you on the staff over there too yeah?
08:40 AM kline: i am, yes
08:40 AM PublicWiFi: nice
08:40 AM twnqx: i don't care either way, but i'll have an eye on what happens with freenode - there must me some kind of intention with the network, the way it seems to be
08:40 AM kline: and i am ex-staff here
08:40 AM PublicWiFi: I'm sure last week was insane, glad you made it through lol
08:40 AM PublicWiFi: I'm sure you went through a lot of coffee
08:41 AM kline: thanks, its been difficult, but the number of projects that have moved and the positive feedback has soothed nerves that we've done the right thing
08:41 AM vmt: twnqx: have you actually read anything of said infamous mr. lee?
08:41 AM twnqx: i am at least not happy with having another network ony my chatlist that's scrolling already
08:41 AM PublicWiFi: im glad weechat makes it pretty transparent for me to have a second network
08:41 AM vmt: of course i understand, ircops must get pissy doing free work and not even being charge trololololol
08:41 AM twnqx: yeah. and it feels contradictory to the actions, at least
08:41 AM vmt: moral of the story; don't do free work
08:42 AM PublicWiFi: that's subjective though
08:42 AM kline: vmt, arent you doing free work helping out consulting here?
08:42 AM PublicWiFi: some free work is rewarded, like FOSS projects
08:42 AM PublicWiFi: kline: ++
08:42 AM PublicWiFi: rewarding**
08:42 AM twnqx: i know enough of the ex-staff to be sure it's not about ego and being in charge for those i know
08:43 AM vmt: kline: well i've been consulting others as well, so consider it a moral obligation of sorts
08:43 AM kline: like, providing consulting advice on getting avr stuff fixed is free work. i spent a long time working with other free projects and i was invited to freenode staff on the back of that, where i could help all the projects and users, indirectly, on freenode
08:43 AM kline: i just want free software to do well, and im concerned that andrew does not care about foss and his changes to freenode are damaging to the free software movement
08:43 AM twnqx: it could of course just be extremely bad communication on lee's side
08:43 AM kline: twnqx, sadly, legal threats are abudnantly clear
08:44 AM twnqx: i've read that term but not a single explanation of who threatened whom with what or about what
08:44 AM kline: if it wasnt such a clear cut case, it wouldnt have been such a unified move from staff
08:44 AM vmt: also, freenode is way too software-oriented for me to actually care. i do understand it *is* it's point, but still
08:46 AM kline: twnqx, after christel left, we decided it was an opportunity to make freenodes decision making consensus based rather than by head staff, which andrew doesnt like. he's also claimed that our intention to collaborate with oftc on server software is a merger with oftc to cut him out. we blogged about it here: https://web.archive.org/web/20210423231439/https://freenode.net/news/freenode-reorg
08:46 AM kline: its only available on the wayback machine because andrews legal demands included that it be removed
08:49 AM twnqx: well, i've grown up with entity-less IRC networks, and it makes me wonder what commercial interest on a chat network could be, whih is mainly the scary part for me
08:49 AM vmt: you will be sold to slavery
08:49 AM PublicWiFi: I'd like to know what he has to gain from it
08:49 AM twnqx: chat logging and analysis? advertisement?
08:49 AM PublicWiFi: what's the point in centralizing freenode? How can he possibly make money from it
08:49 AM twnqx: i don't see more than that in the first place
08:49 AM PublicWiFi: what's the point haha
08:49 AM kline: andrew has a string of failed chat related projects, its likely he just wants to rebrand a working irc network so he can say he's finally acheived it
08:50 AM PublicWiFi: ah
08:50 AM * vmt plays rms's fsf song and sings haaacckkkkerss youuullll beeee freeee yoouuullll beeee freeee-e-e-eeeee
08:50 AM kline: https://www.letstoc.com/
08:50 AM kline: heres his last failed chat projcet
08:50 AM twnqx: so... ego trip?
08:50 AM PublicWiFi: I dont even like that name
08:50 AM vmt: hmm, interesting
08:50 AM PublicWiFi: LOL
08:51 AM vmt: so he's one of the big brain people who thinks real time messaging needs to be frequently reinvented
08:51 AM kline: you can see that he's already started pointing these addresses at freenode:
08:51 AM kline: https://paste.debian.net/1198564
08:51 AM vmt: as he's some kind of a software nerd, this doesn't surprise me though
08:51 AM PublicWiFi: I used to work for the imfamous Bob Murray, the coal man. Toward the end of his life he was hell bent on becoming the "largest non-union coal company in the US" so he started blowing money and buying up failing mines.
08:51 AM twnqx: heh
08:51 AM PublicWiFi: He did it all so he could say that before he died, which he was able to do
08:51 AM PublicWiFi: all for an ego, I just dont get it
08:51 AM vmt: but thank you kline for the insight, much appreciated actually
08:52 AM kline: anyway, the bottom line is that i sincerely believe that andrew has put himself before foss
08:52 AM PublicWiFi: it ended up putting his company is a really tight spot
08:52 AM kline: and because of that i dont think hes a good custodian for freenode, and neither do any of the rest of staff, nor many projects
08:52 AM kline: thanks for being open to discuss it
08:52 AM twnqx: that's actually a missing puzzle piece
08:53 AM twnqx: oh well, i'll stay around here to see what happens, still
08:54 AM PublicWiFi: I thought the launch went pretty well considering
08:54 AM vmt: kline: i've a question, administrative in nature
08:54 AM kline: i have nothing against that, its peoples on choice. my one recommendation for those that do (me included) is that you rotate your email and password, details are included here: https://kline.sh/
08:54 AM kline: vmt, sure
08:54 AM kline: re. email and password: https://nitter.cc/ariadneconill/status/1395667119778500611
08:55 AM kline: new freenode staff were fired from rizon previously for misconduct in handling private info, namely IP addresses to ddos with, so i would be mindful that you dont have anything too identifying in your account
08:56 AM twnqx: well, there's only one reason to be on rizon
08:56 AM PublicWiFi: just another reason to connect through tor lol
08:56 AM vmt: kline: in terms of well-established old channels, do their freenode registrars bear any weight on the respective channels in libera?
08:56 AM kline: yes
08:56 AM PublicWiFi: kline: will libera eventually have that functionality?
08:57 AM PublicWiFi: tor I mean
08:57 AM kline: if we can get channels on libera into the same communities and management that they had on freenode, we aim to do tht
08:57 AM LeoNerd: Most of the channels I'm in have already just moved with basically no fuss
08:57 AM kline: PublicWiFi, yes, i hope that its done in the next few days, but the infrastructure people are of course pretty busy
08:57 AM LeoNerd: "Oh, we're moving. OK"
08:57 AM PublicWiFi: oh nice!
08:57 AM vmt: kline: which registrar is preferred in case of a conflict?
08:57 AM kline: webchat, tor, and matrix are the biggest three things we're chasing right now
08:58 AM kline: vmt, its handled case by case, i know this channel has a difficult history
08:58 AM kline: ive not been active here for a while, but i was in the past and saw it unfold at the time
08:58 AM vmt: yes, and rue_mohr might want a word with you at some point
08:59 AM kline: he's more than welcome to message me, though id prefer that i try to mediate libera stuff on libera
08:59 AM kline: he is there though, so i dont see that being an issue
09:00 AM kline: as LeoNerd alludes to, the rest of staff and i really want this to be as smooth as possible, we're all pretty bummed that it had to come to this, its been a really shit couple of weeks to be at the sharp end of a legal threat and to find out that people we trusted in the past sold out the projects we support
09:01 AM kline: i know this is a bit of a tangent, but as a result of that, libera has properly incorporated as a swedish non-profit with a formal governance structure which should make it more transparent how we do things and also prevent any of the same kinds of shenanigans that have undermined freenode for foss
09:01 AM LeoNerd: As for reasons: I don't really know the internal reasons why they moved, but it doesn't really matter to me. The observed fact is that *prettymuch* every single Freenode admin quit, en masse, and together formed a new network that was basically a copy of the old one, minus Andrew Lee. I don't need to know /why/ they do that - the fact that *all* of them together did it suggests to me they must have had a good reason
09:55 AM MrMobius is now known as MrMobius2
09:56 AM MrMobius2 is now known as MrMobius
10:01 AM SamantazFox__ is now known as SamantazFox
11:45 AM rue_bed2: not completely mpved
11:46 AM rue_bed2: everyone is kinda straddling 2 servers waiting to see whats gonna happen
11:48 AM specing: I'm ready to move to afking on libera
11:48 AM specing: the monarch is writing and approving his own rules now
11:49 AM specing: the "decentralised" freenode monarch is writing and approving his own rules now
11:53 AM rue_bed2: This all started when lilo died
11:53 AM rue_bed2: and I'v not really followed the details, as none of the goings-on were clear at the time
11:56 AM rue_bed2: lots of uncertianty if the bad guy is one side, the other side, or both
11:57 AM rue_bed2: so, seems we will see
11:57 AM rue_bed2: one thing is for sure tho, switching networks is, by far, the best way to purge dead users from a channel
11:58 AM * rue_bed2 looks at Emil
11:58 AM rue_bed2: which is amazingly ironic
11:58 AM rue_bed2: some things have a time too
11:59 AM rue_bed2: back in 2000, avrs were clearly the better chip
11:59 AM rue_bed2: or the chip by the better company
12:00 PM rue_bed2: but as atmel was acquired, by a company with less desirable policies and procedures, the product line takes on disadvantages
12:01 PM rue_bed2: and other controllers have become a LOT more popular and even cheaper for more power in the meantime
12:01 PM specing: It wasn't atmel's acquisition that made AVRs fall out of favor
12:01 PM specing: it was stm32
12:02 PM rue_bed2: big factor
12:02 PM rue_bed2: as microchip goes forward they *will* screw up the product line, they do that
12:03 PM twnqx: PICs remappable IO pins are nice thing though
12:04 PM rue_bed2: but, we have just passed the pinnacle of human tech, and the ability to make chips is one of the first casualties of the breakdown of global manufacturing
12:04 PM twnqx: the limited stack frame is so sad it's funny again though
12:04 PM twnqx: nah, we can still make chips
12:04 PM rue_bed2: there is also esp32
12:04 PM twnqx: just not enough
12:04 PM twnqx: esp32 is insanely priced, too
12:04 PM twnqx: 4mbit embedded flash, 1.5€
12:05 PM rue_bed2: point being, there is less purpose for "avr" and more purpose for a generic place to bring people togethor regarding microcontrollers
12:05 PM exp: are microchip thought of as not very competent?
12:05 PM rue_bed2: they have bad policies,
12:05 PM twnqx: and overloaded employees
12:06 PM rue_bed2: like adding a postfix character to a controller and changing EVERYTHING about it
12:06 PM twnqx: and (currently) way insufficient production capacity
12:06 PM rue_bed2: to the point its not even compatible
12:06 PM twnqx: i hate to wait 35 weeks for some ICs i order
12:06 PM twnqx: and that's if i get lucky and they don't reschedule last minute
12:06 PM exp: I do intend to move to the STM series sooner or later
12:07 PM twnqx: haha
12:07 PM rue_bed2: they have a history of not providing free toolchains, and propretory programmers that you have to buy from them
12:07 PM twnqx: enjoy 60+ weeks lead times then
12:07 PM exp: that's fine we're way lower volume than you
12:07 PM rue_bed2: I have a bunch of stm32
12:07 PM exp: but I was going to say, the free avr toolchain is absolutely lovely
12:07 PM exp: I don't know what the situation is with stm, I know there's some vendor provided stuff
12:07 PM rue_bed2: one issue with stm32 is the tool chains, still back where avr was in about 2004
12:07 PM exp: but any time I see anything 'vendor provided' I cringe
12:07 PM twnqx: also microchip has incredibly incompetent support lol
12:08 PM twnqx: did i ever tell the strory of secure boot on atsam5d?
12:08 PM rue_bed2: not that I heard
12:08 PM twnqx: so, there's the open source sam-ba (usb bootloader) pc side to program the chip
12:09 PM twnqx: and then there's controlled secure sam-ba
12:09 PM twnqx: featuring the encryption of payload part
12:09 PM twnqx: you get that after NDA from support
12:09 PM twnqx: HOWEVER it can only be given to you PGP encrypted
12:09 PM twnqx: and you need to give them a PGP key
12:10 PM twnqx: our company policy is "elliptic curve only" - fails with them, as their pgp is too old
12:10 PM twnqx: so ok, get them an RSA certificate
12:10 PM twnqx: get package back - doesn't decrypt
12:10 PM exp: ECC only is a bit of a silly policy
12:11 PM twnqx: after some back and force support says "strange, we can decrypt it"
12:11 PM exp: you'll have problems with all sorts of not-very-old hardware
12:11 PM twnqx: forth*
12:11 PM exp: (i also have vendor specific RSA keys lol)
12:11 PM twnqx: so we try to explain to support that the fact that THEY can decrypt it means they are using the wrong key...
12:12 PM twnqx: for about two weeks this goes on, them being completely oblivious to anything we tell them
12:12 PM rue_bed2: wow
12:12 PM twnqx: "i can't send you the software if i can't verify the content" argh
12:12 PM twnqx: so in the end $colleague digs out some VP in the states
12:12 PM twnqx: calls them
12:13 PM twnqx: gets secretary
12:13 PM twnqx: asks her to mail him the stuff unencrypted
12:13 PM twnqx: and gets it done that way
12:14 PM exp: tbqh that sounds about the level of competency i expect from any vendor
12:14 PM exp: the only time i've ever had success is in exceptionally niche industrial products, where the tech support people are an office down from the engineers
12:14 PM twnqx: then comes the fun fact
12:15 PM twnqx: it's supposed to write fuses
12:15 PM twnqx: their design recommendation is to turn on the voltage for writing fuses only temporarily
12:15 PM twnqx: but
12:15 PM twnqx: we can't control the chip's IO pins in secure mode, and they won't sign our code to turn on the fuse voltage
12:16 PM twnqx: so we still can't fuse, unless we manually inject 2.5V to some monitoring pad on the PCB
12:16 PM twnqx: i had to RE most of the process and write it myself in the end
12:18 PM exp: i wish i had something interesting or relevant to say
12:18 PM exp: just empathy :)
12:20 PM twnqx: also, that stupid software is nodelocked (via mac address) AND detects hypervisors
12:20 PM twnqx: on the one hand, i want the updated version, on the other i'm too scared to go back requesting it..
12:20 PM exp: both of those relatively easy to defeat at least
12:22 PM twnqx: sure
12:27 PM exp: i have spent 4 hours today babysitting two windows machines that just need updating
12:27 PM exp: but they need to restart 40 billion times each
12:27 PM exp: each time i think it's fully updated, clicking 'check now' brings more updates in
12:27 PM exp: i can't wait to find out what is newly broken!
12:29 PM twnqx: i should reinstall my one real windows box... it's a win 10 that has updates switched off since 2017 or so
12:29 PM twnqx: no point in trying to update that :P
12:31 PM exp: yeah i have one like that, sitting behind me at the moment
12:31 PM exp: these are both laptops where the windows install is just in case
12:31 PM exp: currently doing my Surface Go, I love this little thing.
12:31 PM twnqx: it's my "gaming laptop" that hasn't seem much use ever
12:31 PM exp: perfect little linux box for going on site, can run all the scopes and what have you i need
12:32 PM exp: specs right down the middle, more than good enough
12:32 PM exp: and if i drop it, it cost me £250 so no big deal
12:32 PM twnqx: i also have a win 10 o this laptop here. it boots if i accidentally start it without the linux USB stick :P
12:32 PM exp: part of the reason i've had to babysit these is that they boot linux unless overridden
12:33 PM twnqx: ouch.
12:33 PM exp: so of course with endless reboots i end up turning around to see it suddenly in gnome
12:33 PM twnqx: wouldn't it have been easier to temporarily change the default? :P
12:33 PM exp: for a while, windows was great at updating without restarting, i even remember it unloading and reloading graphics drivers and managing it
12:33 PM exp: twnqx: i underestimated how badly windows 10 has regressed
12:34 PM twnqx: i never liked it. i just completely failed to install windows 7 on the other laptop, so i just used what i had to
12:35 PM exp: it is weird to try and use windows now that i've been primarily linux for more than half my life
12:35 PM exp: it feels so antiquated and amateur
12:35 PM exp: i expect this sort of update experience from linux in the mid 2000s
12:37 PM twnqx: it's just the switching. windows users get the same from linux :P
12:38 PM exp: i'm not sure that's particularly true anymore
12:38 PM exp: windows used to have the advantage of comprehensive settings and configuration options
12:38 PM exp: but in 10 they have stripped much of that away, so its only advantage now is vendor support + software
12:38 PM twnqx: dunno. my gnome-using colleague can't work my my enlightenment based desktop, and i go mad over having to click windows to focus them. it's just what you're used to
12:39 PM exp: i'm more talking about things like: Explorer doesn't support tabs
12:39 PM exp: that sort of 'is this the 90s' experience
12:39 PM twnqx: i never got into single-pane filemanagers
12:40 PM exp: i quite like 'vifm' if you like the mc approach
12:40 PM twnqx: since i started with nc then passed by far i am fine with mc now :P
03:50 PM LHLaurini2 is now known as LHLaurini
07:21 PM specing_ is now known as specing
08:28 PM -!- #avr mode set to +o by passion.freenode.net