#avr Logs

Feb 04 2020

05:20 AM Roden: anyone chillin?
05:26 AM djph: o/ Roden
05:26 AM Roden: haha
05:26 AM polprog: hey
05:26 AM Roden: hey, djph.
05:26 AM polprog: oh, netsplit
05:30 AM Emil_ is now known as Guest96851
05:35 AM Roden: what I should really be asking is: have you audited any kind of video tutorials?
05:51 AM djph: I tend to avoid video at all costs
05:52 AM djph: I've found that they tend to follow the format of 5 minutes of "likeshareandsubscribe!!!" nonesnes, another few minutes of random train-of-thought vomit, and then finally in the last 18 seconds get to the point
06:12 AM Roden: this video's pretty god, djph.
06:12 AM Roden: They're hard to find.
06:12 AM Roden: djph I highly recommend you look at Chapter 4. Eloquent Javascript.
06:13 AM Roden: and the 3-hour introduction to java was also really nice.
06:13 AM Roden: I agree most videos are terrible, but I want to find a good avr video so I can get a basic overview
06:17 AM djph: like hell I'm gonna watch a video on javascript :)
06:17 AM djph: or java for that matter
06:18 AM djph: basic overview of what?
06:18 AM djph: how it works? see: Arduino
06:18 AM nohit: this is pretty good iirc https://www.newbiehack.com/MicrocontrollerTutorial.aspx
06:19 AM nohit: (they are videos)
06:20 AM Roden: djph I didn't "watch it" so much as taking pictures of the slides and raeding them.
06:21 AM Roden: But I'm not trying to "learn avr" by video. I'm just trying to get a nice top-down view to begin with.
06:21 AM Roden: So I want to watch a beginner-to-intermediate video series in full without taking notes or stopping to do exercises.
06:21 AM nohit: If you are a beginner, looking to gain knowledge of microcontrollers, you may find that this tutorial series is a perfect match. This tutorial investigates various uses and features of the popular AVR Atmega32 microcontroller. The tutorial shows real programs being written and explained with circuit development. Basic and intermediate programming concepts and uses are also provided along the way. Through the many examples,
06:21 AM nohit: you can be an expert in embedded systems in no-time.
06:22 AM djph: Roden: basically, that'd be the "Arduino" platform then.
06:22 AM djph: (and videos thereto)
06:22 AM djph: Buuuuut, I can't say if there are any good video series. I simply cannot learn from them.
06:24 AM djph: I'm much more "wired" to learn from datasheets / books when it comes to programming
06:25 AM Roden: Right, I know. I mean, ...
06:25 AM Roden: it's hard to explain what I'm doing.
06:25 AM djph: :)
06:27 AM Roden1: djph it's like: I don't want to study, you know? I just want to chill, and I don't know anything about this at all so I can take a few general concepts away. Later, when I'm deeply studying, it will be easier to follow the reading.
06:28 AM Roden1: The first vid is an 1:45:00 on avr assembly, the second is an hour on assembly.
06:28 AM Roden1: arduino
06:30 AM Roden1 is now known as Roden
06:37 AM djph: Roden: So then grab an Arduino Uno (or clone), and start cracking. The "Arduino" envrionment does a lot to simplify things, and is very geared towards "beginners"
06:54 AM Fuchikoma: +1 Arduino is literally made for entry-level fucking around. Going right into AVR assembly is jumping feet-first into the deep end.
06:55 AM Fuchikoma: Not that AVR assembly is hard (I'm bias here) but some of the functionality might be a bit harder to wrap your head around, and there's a lot more you have to do yourself since there aren't many libraries or documentation geared towards ASM
06:55 AM nohit: not really
06:56 AM nohit: we started with asm at school, before C
06:56 AM Fuchikoma: Same, though less ASM and more hand-assembled Z80 machine code
06:56 AM cehteh: assembly programming isnt very productive
06:57 AM cehteh: avr was designed to target c compiling, only very performance critical things need asm
06:57 AM cehteh: well and avr's are dying anyway
06:57 AM cehteh: any news on future gcc support?
06:59 AM Fuchikoma: Since the chips are still actively manufactured and have even gotten updated since Microchip bought it out, I don't think AVR is in imminent peril
06:59 AM cehteh: not that
07:00 AM cehteh: but with gcc's support coming to an end it will stagnate at best
07:00 AM cehteh: and better chips are nowadays even cheaper
07:00 AM cehteh: the biggest advantage of avrs was/is the ease of programming and the rather complete open source toolchain
07:01 AM cehteh: (and some kindd of electronic ruggedness)
07:01 AM cehteh: with the first slowly dying or at least not maintained its not very motivating to stay with avrs in long time
07:03 AM day: cehteh: the thing is ARM too has a completely open tool chain, and cheaper debugging hardware. i was a bit daunted at first by the complexity, but eh it isn't that much worse after you got through the gazillion of setup routines :D
07:03 AM cehteh: you cant get 32bit mcu's with mcuh more memory and 200mhz or more for cheaper than avrs
07:03 AM cehteh: yeah
07:04 AM cehteh: well i have some risc-v here
07:04 AM cehteh: either way, i dont think avr's are sustainable except for some niche products
07:04 AM Fuchikoma: Arguably that market has been traditionally dominated by PIC anyway
07:05 AM cehteh: 8051 :D
07:05 AM Fuchikoma: There's a reason Atmel got sold :p
07:06 AM cehteh: they made no real progress, the architecture is nice among all the mcu's nicer than the ohers. but clock speeds stagnated by design, peripherials are sub-par compared to other mcu's
07:07 AM cehteh: when it came out end of the 90's it was a big thing but 20+ years later they are almost the same as back then
07:08 AM Fuchikoma: In fairness it's only been the past ~decade that the application was really any different
07:09 AM nohit: and the peripherals are always in the same locations
07:09 AM nohit: the core peripherals
07:09 AM nohit: iirc
07:09 AM nohit: and 8051 was CISC
07:10 AM nohit: strange CISC mcu
07:10 AM cehteh: its prolly more in use than pic's
07:11 AM cehteh: you just dont recognize it by its zillion clones and drrivatives
07:11 AM cehteh: FTDI is 8051 based iirc
07:13 AM Fuchikoma: I wonder if those 3-cent and "ubiquitous 8-pin" micros are based on
07:16 AM day: cehteh: i still dont see why ISA would matter from a dev standpoint.
07:17 AM day: i also doubt that risc-v is going to make processors cheaper than arm
07:17 AM cehteh: depends on what you are developing
07:17 AM cehteh: risc-v doesnt make mcu's thats just an spec
07:18 AM day: well it does define the available instructions doesnt it?
07:18 AM cehteh: https://www.seeedstudio.com/Sipeed-Longan-Nano-RISC-V-GD32VF103CBT6-Development-Board-p-4205.html
07:18 AM cehteh: i have those here
07:19 AM day: so someone programming in asm would be affected to some degree, someone writing in a higher level language would likely not notice it at all
07:19 AM cehteh: now find me the price of an AVR dev borad + small color lcd screen and micro sd card reader
07:19 AM cehteh: well features matter, interrupt latency, privilege rings, dma etc
07:21 AM day: i doubt riscv is going to beat arm when it comes to features. i mean arm offers pretty much everything already :?
07:21 AM day: or rather "arm based products"
07:22 AM cehteh: yes but arms are overly complex and diverted lots of incompatible peripherials etc
07:22 AM cehteh: i tihnk in the long run risc-v will become pretty competive, esp arm ask for outrageous licensig costs
07:22 AM day: isnt that a result of the licensees attaching their 3rd party hardware to the arm core?
07:23 AM day: the same will happen with risc-v
07:23 AM cehteh: we'll see
07:23 AM cehteh: of course people will move slowly with much experience and code already existing on arm
07:24 AM cehteh: but see that Western Digital completely moved to risc-v for their harddisk controllers
07:24 AM cehteh: and many more big players doing similar things
07:46 AM hackkitten: I find Power to be an interesting thing to play with
07:46 AM hackkitten: also because it's fully open and and actually complete
07:47 AM Roden: can you tell me why the register is between the constants instead of on the left or right?
07:47 AM Roden: the high and low
07:47 AM hackkitten: RISCV is just the core instruction set at this point =/
07:47 AM hackkitten: and RISCV is just another MIPS clone, really =/
07:47 AM Roden: c_high, register, c_low
08:31 AM Roden1 is now known as Roden
09:03 AM day: cehteh: im curious what motivates WD to switch to risc-V. what do they gain from it?
09:06 AM day: that being said i doubt that risc-v's vs arm is nowhere near comparable to the uphill battle that arm is fighting against x86
09:06 AM day: if only for the fact that they are both cross compile targets
09:11 AM nohit: or x86 fighting against arm
09:11 AM nohit: afaik arm havent really tried in the desktop market, intel tried the mobile market and failed
09:18 AM day: well they are trying to get into the server market, but that appears to be a fruitless endeavor from what i can tell
09:30 AM day: and unless they convince MS to release Windows for ARM the only option they have would be chromebooks, which i believe they are already pursuing
09:33 AM rue_mohr: arm will win
09:34 AM rue_mohr: and desktops are going away
09:35 AM nohit: windows 10 has ARM version
09:36 AM nohit: of course
09:39 AM day: isn't it only the W10 IOT version that exists for arm?
09:39 AM nohit: no
09:40 AM nohit: Platforms IA-32, x86-64, ARMv7, ARM64
09:41 AM day: good to know
09:44 AM day: rue_mohr: yes, it's a bit sad how we are going back to the "terminal client" computing structure.
09:45 AM Fuchikoma: I think you mean "Cloud based" :D
09:46 AM day: well i mean "you only have a weak/ stupid client at home", just like in the old days
09:46 AM Fuchikoma: Yeah and the computer hardware isn't that powerful either
09:46 AM day: except now it is for proprietary/IP reasons instead of a necessity
09:49 AM day: good thing stadia failed :P
10:03 AM djph: day: sarcasm or no?
10:07 AM day: not a fan of one player controlling everything
10:08 AM day: i guess it would have been a giant blow to cheating, which would be awesome, but then again the implementation was barely passable for singleplayer games from what i read
10:08 AM day: or rather "is", it's not like they stopped selling it
10:33 AM djph: yeah, I still see the ads for it ... figured it kinda-sorta-worked
10:33 AM djph: but is a joke in the first place
10:58 AM vmt: stadia had no other choice but to fail. the idea is fucking ridiculous to begin with
10:59 AM vmt: unless you start massing up serious infrastructure, but it's economically not viable
11:01 AM vmt: but you probably get nice javascript wrappers and apis somewhere in there with docker kubernetes and restful
02:22 PM twnqx: i just noticed arduino uses varistors for ESD protection of the arduino leotardo.. i always thought TVS diodes would be the way to go
02:22 PM twnqx: does any of you know what's the difference in behavior?
02:24 PM Fuchikoma: I'm not sure a varistor would be appropriate for ESD
02:25 PM Fuchikoma: Gross overvoltage sure, but I don't know that they act fast enough for ESD
02:25 PM twnqx: https://www.bourns.com/docs/Product-Datasheets/MLC.pdf well, i guess they are, if you believe the manufacturer
02:25 PM Fuchikoma: Okie doke then
02:26 PM Fuchikoma: Functionally they're the same; Both are very high impedence until a certain voltage threshold is reached, then they conduct with fairly low impedence
11:13 PM davor_ is now known as davor
11:31 PM day__ is now known as day