#avr Logs

Jun 14 2019

01:30 AM gsi__ is now known as gsi_
12:50 PM vmt: i came across an article praising the battery pack on the new tesla model, and i can't really understand what the fuck they're talking about
12:54 PM vmt: the difference in energy density is negligible at best. i figure they're talking about volume here, and that the new pack packs into a smaller space, but these fucking quasi-scientific articles seemingly copy-pasted across the "tech" sites are just annoying as hell
12:55 PM vmt: they also compare the mass of the new 75 kWh pack directly with the old 85 kWh pack and state: hurr durr, the new pack is a shit ton lighter! something like 478 kg - 540 kg
01:34 PM cehteh: thats a small person :D ... but hey there are cars that only weigh 540kg entirely :)
01:35 PM cehteh: oh 560kg :) https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citro%ABn_2CV
01:35 PM polprog: reminds me why i dont read any tech news at all
01:35 PM polprog: 1) copy paste
01:36 PM polprog: 2) just consumer bs, i dont care for the new smartphone release
01:38 PM cehteh: i care every 5 or so years when i need a new one, and usually find out that there is more marking bullshit features than useful features
01:39 PM cehteh: more pixels, thinner, lighter .... but no headphone jack, no sd card, not waterproof, short battery time, aging oled display, etc etc
01:39 PM cehteh: plus more expensive than i would like it
01:39 PM polprog: true :(
02:03 PM vmt: they bend, get them while they're hot
02:08 PM vmt: cehteh: also my point was, the energy densities are so close to each other. when you account for the difference in capacity, which is roughly 11(.7)%, the new pack is not solving any problems whatsoever
02:08 PM polprog: imo Musk's only real business is SpaceX
02:09 PM polprog: everything else is just a show to keep the cash flow for spacex
02:11 PM vmt: i disagree. i think tesla is his only company with actual market value
02:11 PM polprog: hmm
02:11 PM polprog: maybe things have changed
02:11 PM vmt: i think tesla is also moronic, but that's besides the point. the company has gotten everyone hyped up
02:12 PM polprog: yeah, the marketing is enormous
02:12 PM polprog: meanwhile other EVs are completely unheard of
02:12 PM polprog: i learnt about Hyundai Kona just because someone made a video about chineese EV chargers and had one...
02:12 PM vmt: meanwhile batteries have not undergone significant development since lithium cells
02:12 PM vmt: undergone any significant...*
02:13 PM polprog: yeah. and gasoline still is the best energy density fuel that can be used in cars
02:14 PM vmt: well, sure. but energy density isn't even the whole picture. you have to account for the conversion rate
02:14 PM polprog: yeah
02:14 PM vmt: but yes, it makes much more sense to use gasoline than batteries.
02:14 PM polprog: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOErZuzZpS8
02:14 PM vmt: if we were to use the highest energy density fuels, we'd run cars on... probably something radioactive and fissile. u-235, pu?
02:14 PM polprog: probably that
02:15 PM polprog: russians had rather small reactors for their submarines
02:15 PM polprog: well, small comared to most other reactors
02:15 PM polprog: Fujitsu or soneone else made a reactor the size of a big fridgefreezer
02:15 PM polprog: iirc
02:16 PM polprog: there is hydrogen also
02:16 PM vmt: well, the problem is that you will need a shield, and if memory serves the radiation absorption is directly proportional to the mass
02:17 PM polprog: yes, you will need quite a big shield to be alive
02:17 PM vmt: hydrogen doesn't exactly make sense as a fuel either
02:17 PM polprog: 5 odd meters of concrete to shield gamma rays
02:17 PM vmt: number one, it's extremely flammable
02:18 PM polprog: yes, and so are lithium cells :D
02:18 PM polprog: gasoline is much safer
02:18 PM polprog: and diesel fuel even more
02:18 PM vmt: yes but given the choice of driving around with a tank of hydrogen, or a pack of lithium cells, i'd take the lithium cells 7 days a week
02:19 PM polprog: same
02:19 PM vmt: furthermore, i figure they propose electrolysis (and other, newer things) as methods for producing hydrogen
02:19 PM vmt: and it's just another lossy step in the chain, wrt. energy
02:20 PM polprog: i remember i stubled upon a thread on some forum where they were proposing powering a tesla from a gas/diesel gen
02:20 PM vmt: idiots.
02:20 PM polprog: also the "clean energy" claim is bs... power is not clean at all, if you use coal to make it
02:21 PM vmt: sure. it's not even clean when you store energy into batteries. it's also not clean when you use solar panels to generate it.
02:21 PM polprog: solar panels? thats new. I guess thats cause of the materials and disposal of them
02:22 PM vmt: yes.
02:22 PM vmt: also, in batteries they use stuff such as cobalt, which drives the lifespan of the battery up, gives it like 10-20% (forgot, someone will call me out on this) more cycles or something.
02:23 PM vmt: which are really fucking hard to come by with. and all the byproducts and waste generated in the making of batteries, and their disposal, too
02:23 PM vmt: but hey, out of sight, out of mind. just keep displaying those coal plants and while they're at it, add in a healthy dose of fearmongering about nuclear reactors showing some nuke footage
02:24 PM polprog: sure
02:24 PM polprog: also, worlds first battery maker? china.
02:24 PM polprog: lol
02:24 PM vmt: i thought it was egypt
02:25 PM vmt: i have no real recollection of the timeline, ... nor do i really know the details
02:30 PM vmt: also, on the topic of spacex as you mentioned, how many reflights have they managed to pull off?
02:31 PM polprog: no idea
02:31 PM vmt: and what are the actual cost-benefit analysis on reflights?
02:31 PM vmt: what is* rather
02:31 PM polprog: i dont follow the spacex cult at all
02:31 PM polprog: i know they managed to land, and i think reuse one craft
02:31 PM vmt: the reliability still seems like a qustion mark to me. as far as i know, they have reflown stage-I once
02:32 PM vmt: they mostly fly satellites up now yeah? to fund that big rocket and spaceship?
02:33 PM polprog: some of this stuff is just single use
02:33 PM polprog: really single use, unlike razors etc
02:33 PM vmt: of course, but his big selling point has always been in reducing mission cost by having stage I being reusable
02:34 PM polprog: yeah
02:34 PM polprog: it is doable, NASA did that with the white space shuttle
02:34 PM polprog: i forgot its name
02:35 PM vmt: this is one of those things where the hype outweighs the results by orders of magnitude
02:35 PM polprog: the one that fell apart during one landing and the project went into the filing cabinet forever
02:35 PM vmt: discovery, i think
02:35 PM polprog: yeah
02:35 PM vmt: wait no, columbia.
02:36 PM vmt: anyway, space shuttle was a fubar project from the get-go, the reusability of the shuttle was a complete no-go, mission cost was much much more higher because of all the refitting that had to be done
02:38 PM vmt: and also that big rocket + spaceship he's proposing, is much bigger than even the saturn V
02:40 PM vmt: wait actually no, i remembered it wrong.
02:41 PM vmt: according to wiki, SV could haul about 140 tons to LEO, musk's thing is supposed to do "100+ tons"
02:42 PM cehteh: well the plan is to do multiple launches, last one with the crew, assemnle things in orbit and then fly to mars iirc
02:42 PM vmt: in any case, it would be one of the biggest rockets ever made + ambitious plans about refueling-in-orbit and so on, which suggests a reliability of extremely close to 100%.
02:42 PM vmt: i wonder if spacex's operating profit is enough to fund a huge project such as this. i mean it's easy to create mockups of spaceships in the middle of nowhere and take pictures for good PR
02:43 PM cehteh: actually this may give some redundancy, if some launch fails they can rig a replacement launch
02:44 PM cehteh: just needs some extraordinary good marketing if the launch with the crew fails :D
02:44 PM vmt: that drives the cost up by a lot, though
02:44 PM cehteh: far less than if everything on some single launch like saturn fails
02:44 PM vmt: you don't just rig up a rocket just like that. you need actual backups in place before the mission
02:45 PM vmt: cehteh: sure, i'll give you that
02:45 PM cehteh: depends, dunno about their launch windows and how long things can stay in leo
02:45 PM vmt: unless you can have the crew floating in leo for months, then no
02:45 PM vmt: the refuel is the culprit
02:46 PM vmt: wait no, the actual crew transport is the culprit
02:46 PM cehteh: anyway a) musk is a dickhead b) someone has to make that job, let him be, give at least food on the table of some engineers c) how is that topic here :D
02:47 PM cehteh: when you do the right measurment then the survival rate of astronauts is prettyy good
02:47 PM vmt: sure. also i'll give you the redundancy, it's demonstrably true. my point was moreso in how ambitious the plan is for a company which merely shoots up satellites
02:47 PM cehteh: like deaths per mile or so :)
02:48 PM vmt: keyword: /right measurement/
02:49 PM vmt: engineers is not a given. engineers should focus on solving more important problems than this. also, so it would appear musk has more 3d artists on board than real engineers
02:49 PM cehteh: i wonder if anyone ever caclulated that .. and compared it with cars, trains, aircraft, bicycling, walking :)
02:49 PM vmt: and to answer c) well, it's quiet around here
02:49 PM vmt: cehteh: the sample sizes are not comparable, you could only do this by extrapolation, which would invalidate the results
02:50 PM cehteh: as if marketing ever cared :D
02:50 PM vmt: ...marketers need no food on the table
02:51 PM cehteh: also menawhile i think there where plenty people in space already, dunno how much but maybe 100 or even more, *20 years *3-6 people ... you prolly get some thousand years, should be ok for a sample size
02:52 PM vmt: that's extrapolation, and as i said...
02:53 PM cehteh: yeah when you are bored try to figure out :D
02:53 PM * cehteh does some programming now
02:55 PM vmt: the result will be flawed immensely. much the same way i could take some stunt which has been only performed once or twice, performer surviving every time and extrapolating that over the next 1000 years
03:06 PM vmt: also, if you want to compare it to e.g. cars, you would have to account for potential misuse. it is very unlikely that a pilot is flying a spacecraft drunk. also, if drivers would undergo training as extensive as astronauts in order to operate their machinery, and that all of this would be enforced as strictly as human-rated spaceflight, i would dare to argue mortality rates with cars would go down drastically
03:07 PM vmt: and finally, for them to be comparable you would have to try and eliminate driver error as much as possible, both with training, and with the capability for cars to self-drive, which is a far trickier problem than self-flying spacecrafts
07:19 PM Tefx: so guys i have a wierd one to throw out there i have a vape device that uses the exsact same board as another device now my device has had most of its firmwares options disabled for no reall reason other than the company that licenced the use of the board were fuckign dumbasses now im trying to see if theres any substantial differences and what id need to change to get the firmware to flash on my device onyl issue is i cant figure
07:19 PM Tefx: out how to get my device in DFU mode and the firmware for the other device seems to be mildly encrypted
07:20 PM Tefx: and like its almoist certainyl only base64 encoded and maybe bit shifted but atm what id liek is to know if theres any way to force dfu mode
07:20 PM Tefx: without having to open the device
07:28 PM cehteh: dfu doesnt sound like a avr :D
07:32 PM jonwil: I am attempting to burn a bootloader to an ATTiny85 via Arduino, Ardunio-Tiny and a USBASP. When avrdude does its thing to try to burn the ATTiny85, it doesn't work. Verbose output from avrdude is this https://pastebin.com/qu7dnDcY
07:32 PM Tefx: sorry
07:32 PM Tefx: my bad
07:32 PM jonwil: Anyone know what that output suggests my problem is?
07:32 PM Tefx: i thoguth this was a stm32 channel
07:32 PM Tefx: i kinda seen that int he topic
07:32 PM cehteh: hence its named #avr :D
07:32 PM jonwil: Its a brand new ATTiny85 that's never been programmed before
07:33 PM Tefx: and didnt really pay mcuhg attention to anythign else my bad
07:33 PM cehteh: jonwil: check cabeling
07:33 PM jonwil: Actually, forget that, turns out my ATTiny85 was loose in the breadboard I am using
07:33 PM jonwil: So now says "done burning bootloader"
07:33 PM cehteh: :D
07:34 PM cehteh: why bootloader anyway :D .. usb/micronucleus?
07:34 PM cehteh: otherwise i wont waste any space on a bootloader on a tiny
07:35 PM jonwil: is there a way to download an arduino program to a tiny without the bootloader?
07:36 PM cehteh: yes
07:36 PM cehteh: just flash it :)
07:36 PM cehteh: like you did with the bootloader
07:36 PM cehteh: well actualyl dunno if that works because of addresses etc, iirc it shouzld, i dont use arduinop programs
07:37 PM cehteh: but normally you can just compile and flash firmwares as is
07:37 PM cehteh: bootloader makes it only easier when you dont have a programming adapter and want to flash over usb or serial
07:40 PM jonwil: ok, now its telling me it cant find avr-g++ which I assume means I installed arduino-tiny wrong
07:40 PM cehteh: arduino ide?
07:41 PM jonwil: yeah
07:41 PM cehteh: *barf* :D
07:41 PM jonwil: Might move to #arduino for that
07:41 PM cehteh: hehe or stay here and dont use arduino
07:41 PM cehteh: its too bloaty for tinys anyway
07:42 PM cehteh: what do you want to do with the tiny?
07:45 PM jonwil: https://pastebin.com/8pcT1niE is the code I have (someone on a forum helped me come up with code that should make the attiny do what I want which is flash some LEDs in a specific sequence) and also schematics for it
07:45 PM jonwil: If there is another easier/better way to do the same thing for my attiny85 I will try it
07:46 PM cehteh: better for sure, easier, depends
07:46 PM jonwil: I know C inside and out but I have never programmed for a microcontroller before
07:46 PM cehteh: i mean only flashng leds .. ok thats trivoa the way you do
07:46 PM cehteh: or using plain avr-libc w/o the arduino cruft
07:47 PM cehteh: i have some scheduler/os which can make things easier when it gets more complex
07:48 PM cehteh: functions can be called asyncronously by timer, blinking leds is really easy that way as well
07:49 PM cehteh: using delay() is also some kind of malpractice anyhow
07:50 PM cehteh: will work for such simple thing, but not the way to do it
11:58 PM day__ is now known as day