#avr Logs

Mar 28 2019

12:43 AM day_ is now known as day
12:55 AM [1]MrMobius is now known as MrMobius
03:32 AM nohit: kiki_lamb: that's blasphemy on this channel
03:32 AM nohit: try #avrs
04:04 AM kiki_lamb: nohit: why's it blasphemy?
04:21 AM nohit: ask rue/cehteh/vmt
04:42 AM polprog: you dont usually run cpp on 8 bit micros
06:18 AM kiki_lamb: polprog: meh. maybe you don't, plenty of people do.
06:19 AM polprog: maybe
06:19 AM kiki_lamb: well, unless you want to use a really extreme definition of 'plenty'.
06:20 AM polprog: of everyone in here i think only Ameisen did
06:20 AM kiki_lamb: eh. anyone working with the mainstream Arduino stuff is, and there are lots of them about.
06:20 AM polprog: im not saying a mystical force will tear away your fingers if you do
06:21 AM polprog: oh, yeah, arduino probably uses a lot of that
06:21 AM polprog: ive no idea, never used that.
06:21 AM polprog: ive had contact with their ctags version recently, porting it
06:24 AM kiki_lamb: they don't use as much of it as they should, really. their stuff is alright but they underuse some parts of C++.
07:35 AM ville: https://github.com/kvasir-io/Kvasir
07:36 AM ville: suppose that's for bit different type of microcontrollers though
08:01 AM polprog: hmm i wonder if openocd can trick stlink to work with other swd capable micros
08:46 AM vmt: polprog: I think so, at least nxp
08:46 AM vmt: pretty sure you can*
09:56 AM nohit: polprog: wtf antto does it for living
09:56 AM polprog: oh, and antto
09:56 AM polprog: but thats on xmega, its slightly different
09:59 AM nohit: still 8but micro
09:59 AM nohit: *8bit
09:59 AM polprog: hmm
09:59 AM polprog: yeah
11:54 AM gsi__ is now known as gsi_
12:29 PM vmt: kiki_lamb: as far as i know, the arduino language isn't exactly c++
12:30 PM vmt: and for micros, i don't see it being either beneficial or useful in any way, shape or form to "work with the mainstream arduino stuff"
12:30 PM Thrashbarg: lets just hope it has an optimisation flag set by default :P
12:32 PM vmt: if you need metaprogramming for mcus too, it's a surefire sign of doing something wrong
12:32 PM polprog: #pragma align(16)
12:32 PM vmt: in before "b-b-but type safety!111"
12:32 PM polprog: ^
12:33 PM polprog: you dont need type safety if everything is uint8_t
12:33 PM Thrashbarg: who's safety? Yours or mine?
12:33 PM polprog: the centrifuge operator who got sucked in cause of a loop in your safety shutoff routine
12:34 PM vmt: Thrashbarg: wrt especially type safety, the programmer itself is 9/10 times treated as both the user, and an elusive "third party" using those exact apis the programmer wrote himself
12:34 PM vmt: i mean both the programmer and an elusive 3rd party*
12:34 PM vmt: programmer, author, whatever you want to call it
12:34 PM Thrashbarg: hmm
12:36 PM vmt: and in my eyes that's borderline useless, but hey. that's just me.
12:40 PM Thrashbarg: everything I learned about modern programming dogma I learned from a school friend who works for an ISP as a coal shoveling programmer
12:41 PM Thrashbarg: glad I got out of IT before I started in it :P
12:42 PM polprog: youtube recently recommended me some video titled "the 14 yearold prodigy who dreams in code"
12:42 PM polprog: why do people portray programming as some sorcery
12:42 PM polprog: sourcery ;)
12:43 PM polprog: the guy made 7 or so iphone apps
12:43 PM vmt: Thrashbarg: it's kind of a fluctuating dogma though, a fad which changes over time and is accepted at face value
12:43 PM Thrashbarg: I'd like to see him make 7 games for the Commodore 64...
12:43 PM vmt: i have a strong aversion to the word "code" in general
12:44 PM polprog: i differentiate between coding and programming
12:44 PM Thrashbarg: vmt: yes that's one thing he points out. How teams jump on the latest 'and therefore best' frameworks and other fluff, then make the same basic mistakes over and over again
12:45 PM vmt: i view programs through their functionality and performance, rather than some abstract idea of how "beautiful" the "code" is, and this abstract beauty is defined by the latest fads
12:46 PM Thrashbarg: 1) Our project is falling apart 2) Scrap it and start with this new framework! 3) This is great! We won't make the same mistakes again 4) go to step 1
12:46 PM Thrashbarg: vmt: "good code documents itself" ? ;)
12:47 PM vmt: x = 3.5, x -> 4) fork
12:47 PM Thrashbarg: heh
12:48 PM vmt: that is to say, ad infinitum steps between 3.5 and 4 the project gets forked
12:48 PM Thrashbarg: yeah
12:48 PM vmt: Thrashbarg: sure, that's one
12:48 PM vmt: more set-in-stone concepts include e.g. getters and setters for the oop evangelists
12:49 PM vmt: 99% of getters and setters ever fucking written does exactly that. returns or sets a value while doing *NOTHING* else
12:49 PM Thrashbarg: I recall someone saying the MS-DOS text editor 'must' be multithreaded because that was the only way they could get the context menus to work. Reminds me of people who can't fathom analog television because it doesn't have pixels
12:49 PM vmt: :D
12:50 PM vmt: oh, and then there's java. which is just one big fucking bad idea
12:50 PM vmt: it's like a fad that never went away :(
12:51 PM Thrashbarg: I'm a firm believer if you're well grounded in the fundamentals of a given craft, you'll be better at it. Layers of abstraction like you get in frameworks, AND JAVA OH GOD NO, etc remove you from the fundamentals
12:51 PM Thrashbarg: it's the Eternal September of programming languages
12:51 PM Thrashbarg: managers love it because it's verbose, much like COBOL
12:51 PM vmt: exactly
12:52 PM polprog: https://pics.me.me/how-many-layers-of-abstraction-are-you-on-you-are-8426048.png
12:52 PM Thrashbarg: hehehe
12:52 PM vmt: is me.me your domain?
12:52 PM vmt: also, yeah that seems accurate
12:53 PM Thrashbarg: a new programming method: recursive abstraction
12:53 PM polprog: nope, its some site that seems to OCR the memes for easier indexing
12:53 PM Thrashbarg: hmm
12:54 PM Thrashbarg: I always read COBOL code as though the designers of the language thought you should ask the computer nicely to perform your procedure. I figure the same is true for Java, but you ask nicely at the expense of your sanity and soul
12:54 PM polprog: i used to write java
12:55 PM polprog: forst some swing programs and then minecraft mods,
12:55 PM polprog: back when minecraft wasnt microsoft
12:55 PM polprog: those were the times... eh...
12:55 PM Thrashbarg: "If you wish to write a Java program from scratch, first you must import the Universe" :P
12:55 PM polprog: jokes aside, it was pretty neat to write java ;)
12:56 PM Thrashbarg: I've never written an OOP language for any length of time. Python confuses the hell out of me. Perhaps my mind has been permanently disfigured from all that QBasic I wrote as a kid
12:56 PM polprog: barely ever wrote OOP python
12:57 PM vmt: one the huge caveats of the OOP paradigm is that problems have to be solved for the most generic case to begin with
12:57 PM polprog: mmm
12:57 PM Thrashbarg: reminds me of the Kings Toaster
12:57 PM vmt: whereas in reality, you have a problem x, and not a problem is for all x in y
12:57 PM vmt: that is for all x in y*
12:58 PM Thrashbarg: https://www.ee.ryerson.ca/~elf/hack/ktoast.html
12:58 PM vmt: well, they don't *have* to be solved in that fashion, but the dogma related encourages it
12:59 PM polprog: Thrashbarg: java.lang.ToasterFactory ?
12:59 PM Thrashbarg: eh? :P
12:59 PM vmt: Thrashbarg: this is gold. I was just about to bring up CS.
12:59 PM polprog: that link is awesome
01:01 PM Thrashbarg: I think the 80386 line dates it haha
01:01 PM vmt: cs, the "field of science" in which professors and deans alike, alienated from reality (i.e. never having to ship anything), push their theoretical models which they base on abstract math rather than limitations of computers
01:02 PM polprog: i have 5 (well, 4) spare thin clients, amd geode, with a running light unix on them (netbsd)
01:02 PM polprog: i could whip up a serial-to-toaster adapter and have ToasterAsAService thingy
01:02 PM vmt: will it have a RESTful api?
01:03 PM cehteh: IoT ... internet of toasters :)
01:04 PM cehteh: and remember the the 'S' in 'IoT' stands for security
01:04 PM Thrashbarg: yup!
01:04 PM vmt: needs more blockchain and machine learning, blockchain of ai toasters, or, BLOAIT for a short and cool sounding acronym
01:05 PM polprog: and then someone wanted to debloat.. so they came up with assembler for web browsers
01:05 PM Thrashbarg: Imagine how we used to turn on lights without blockchains! How did we survive??
01:05 PM polprog: yeah! i had to ask all the previous owners if i can switch the light on!
01:05 PM polprog: now that the Computer does that for me, life is easier than ever
01:06 PM Thrashbarg: I reiterate my "can't fathom how analog television works" statement :P
01:06 PM vmt: not-so-long ago they launched a "green" cryptocurrency
01:06 PM vmt: i kind of chuckled
01:06 PM polprog: lol
01:06 PM Thrashbarg: haha
01:06 PM polprog: Thrashbarg: what about analog television ?
01:06 PM Thrashbarg: <Thrashbarg> I recall someone saying the MS-DOS text editor 'must' be multithreaded because that was the only way they could get the context menus to work. Reminds me of people who can't fathom analog television because it doesn't have pixels
01:06 PM polprog: xD
01:06 PM polprog: ok. stop
01:07 PM polprog: this was the silliest thing ive seen today
01:07 PM polprog: this week even ;)
01:07 PM polprog: sillier than ctags defining __unused__ macro that for some reason confused the crap outta my GCC
01:07 PM Thrashbarg: I'm not joking about that EDIT.COM thing either... the guy was way up in the abstractosphere
01:07 PM polprog: given that Eclipse had a builtin web browser
01:08 PM Thrashbarg: heh
01:08 PM vmt: there's webkit for emacs...
01:08 PM Thrashbarg: oh please there's everything for emacs :P
01:08 PM vmt: then again there's everything for emacs
01:08 PM polprog: indeed
01:08 PM Thrashbarg: hehe
01:08 PM vmt: hah
01:08 PM * polprog uses emacs
01:08 PM polprog: rn i have 3 windows on my screen, terminal, emacs and firefox.. and thats all i need
01:08 PM polprog: and music blasting
01:08 PM Thrashbarg: yup
01:10 PM vmt: i usually have 5 workspaces open. three terminals: irc, nvim, ranger, browser and a music player
01:10 PM polprog: as you know, im stuck on this ungodly 5:4 lcd
01:10 PM polprog: ;)
01:10 PM Thrashbarg: ouch
01:10 PM polprog: i need to get a vesa mount and ill put a proper 16:9 panel over the scope
01:10 PM polprog: for all my sigrok and rigol gui needs
01:11 PM vmt: mmm. i use a tiling wm, no borders or titles on windows so i can maximize my screen's real estate
01:11 PM polprog: never got hooked on tiling wms.
01:11 PM polprog: i hate huge borders though
01:12 PM cehteh: i used to feel comfortable on 12" laptops .. until i brought the new 32" 4k monitor, got used to that in about 30 seconds :D
01:12 PM vmt: yeah, a proper 4k display is on my to-buy list too
01:12 PM cehteh: and using tiling wm since 15 years or so
01:13 PM vmt: i am really struggling on my 14" stinkpad even using a tiling wm
01:13 PM cehteh: ol monitor besides the 4k
01:13 PM cehteh: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dssq4DfXcAExhEA.jpg
01:13 PM cehteh: plenty workspace
01:14 PM vmt: ideally i'd want two screens in landscape and one portrait
01:15 PM vmt: portrait for the browser, one landscape for vim and one for gdb
01:16 PM polprog: https://i.ibb.co/FJcm92W/2019-03-28-1280x1024-scrot.png
01:16 PM vmt: the gdb one would work as somekind of a scratch screen too for oddball stuff when not working
01:17 PM polprog: id use portrait for vim/gdb and landscape for browser
01:18 PM vmt: i like my splits vertical better:D
01:18 PM polprog: hmm, right
01:23 PM polprog: fuck
01:24 PM polprog: i just dropped my soic clip into my tea
01:24 PM Thrashbarg: oops
01:26 PM Thrashbarg: Fri 29 Mar 04:53:05 ACDT 2019
01:26 PM Thrashbarg: sleep time
01:26 PM vmt: are you an aussie?
01:26 PM Thrashbarg: yea
01:27 PM polprog: thats way past sleep time lol
01:27 PM vmt: g'day... i don't know the counterpart for a good night
01:27 PM Thrashbarg: g'night? :P
01:27 PM polprog: nighters :D
01:27 PM vmt: say hi to dave
01:27 PM Thrashbarg: heh
01:28 PM vmt: did i say dave? i meant the corporate shill
01:28 PM polprog: no he's a cia shill
01:28 PM Thrashbarg: haha yea... I can't stand him :P
01:28 PM polprog: Thrashbarg: that's a bobby dazzler
01:28 PM Thrashbarg: strewth
01:28 PM vmt: shill? surely you must mean nigger
01:28 PM Thrashbarg: >_>
01:29 PM vmt: i miss terry
01:29 PM Thrashbarg: yeah
01:29 PM Thrashbarg: though he was from New Zealand
01:29 PM vmt: what? really?
01:29 PM Thrashbarg: yeah
01:30 PM polprog: https://youtu.be/lgtooEtk9R4?t=1410
01:30 PM polprog: apropos cia shill ;)
01:30 PM polprog: :^)
01:30 PM polprog: i want that sticker for my fridge
01:30 PM polprog: or for a pair of underwear
01:31 PM Thrashbarg: hehehe
01:31 PM Thrashbarg: anyway I'm off
01:31 PM polprog: cya
01:32 PM vmt: g'night
01:36 PM vmt: i figure if he's a cia shill the squeezing-you-by-the-balls pitch of his voice must be a side-effect from mkultra
07:20 PM Ameisen: polprog
07:21 PM Ameisen: c++ is very common on micros - after all, Arduino SDK is (crappy) C++
07:21 PM Ameisen: the problem is that you have to be pretty good with C++ to match or outperform C
07:21 PM Ameisen: there's also the issue that every AVR compiler sorta sucks.
07:21 PM Ameisen: for both C and C++
08:32 PM rue_bed: I'v not had problems with performance in C
08:34 PM rue_bed: I should work on my servo more
09:01 PM kiki_lamb: vmt: eh, it builds as C++, so I'm fine calling it that. It's C++ with a wonky preprocessor in front.