#avr Logs

Dec 01 2018

12:02 AM vmt: yeeh... poor programmers also make things look like it's 1980s
12:07 AM rue_mohr: I have the ability tho, to not care about a ui having candy theme buttons
12:07 AM rue_mohr: what I care about, is if it works
12:07 AM rue_mohr: this is not a modern way, I understand
12:08 AM rue_mohr: a modern program runs on a 64bit system so that it can use more than just 2G of ram
12:09 AM rue_mohr: which means it doesn't have to worry about freeing ememory for little things liek strings
12:09 AM rue_mohr: or images
12:09 AM rue_mohr: it can just allocate new space
12:10 AM rue_mohr: animation? no worries, their just iamges
12:11 AM rue_mohr: reallocate your candy theme button backgrounds for every new button, every time you need to use one
12:12 AM vmt: no dear sir, this is not what i'm saying at all
12:13 AM vmt: you can achieve a modern look without doing any of the irrelevant shit you just spewed out
12:13 AM vmt: if you put some effort in it, and you know, aren't a poor programmer
12:14 AM rue_mohr: yes it is
12:14 AM rue_mohr: you just accept it as common practise
12:15 AM rue_mohr: you would be happy to embed python just to parse an equation
12:15 AM vmt: no, you have extrapolated this (albeit incorrectly) all by yourself
12:15 AM vmt: i think your dayjob as an elecchicken clouds your judgement
12:17 AM rue_mohr: what gui library would you suggest?
12:17 AM rue_mohr: Qt, right?
12:17 AM rue_mohr: I totally heard the voice in your head say Qt
12:17 AM rue_mohr: right before the other voice said to just make it a web app
12:18 AM rue_mohr: have you ever known a fast, responsive program? I think not
12:19 AM vmt: i have not advocated for any... widget-libraries
12:19 AM vmt: definitely not qt or gtk
12:20 AM vmt: you know, here we have arrived at the crux of the issue. you can write your own. how about that
12:20 AM vmt: for something easy, an "immediate-mode" gui, which does not store the state the same way conventional widget libs do
12:21 AM rue_mohr: i'v run into the shortsightedness so many times
12:22 AM rue_mohr: if I did a gui, people would wonder why the concepts hadn't been done way earlier
12:23 AM rue_mohr: "gui" it would be beyond gui
12:23 AM rue_mohr: we have come so far since 1989 and yet never applied it
12:24 AM rue_mohr: and I started a layout for it
12:24 AM rue_mohr: its written on my bathroom mirror
12:25 AM rue_mohr: I'm finding it hard to let go of some of the constraining concepts
12:25 AM vmt: :DD
12:26 AM rue_mohr: a ui is about an event-function interface with the users
12:27 AM vmt: that's a very elaborate way of putting it, but sure
12:27 AM rue_mohr: and the users provide gestures to generate those events
12:28 AM vmt: input. the user provides input.
12:28 AM vmt: the gui does its gui thing. generates output. boom.
12:28 AM rue_mohr: gestures are read thru things like mice, keyboards, touchscreens, audio cards, or cameras
12:28 AM vmt: hey yeah thanks, i wasn't aware
12:28 AM vmt: anyway, disregarding that, i am completely unsure whether you are kidding or not
12:29 AM rue_mohr: }:,
12:29 AM rue_mohr: your software works like the 80's, even tho its got fresh paint
12:30 AM rue_mohr: working with motif has been interesting
12:30 AM rue_mohr: motif was like the first (or second?) gui lib _ever_
12:30 AM vmt: again, these two are not mutually inclusive.
12:30 AM rue_mohr: looking at what has changed has been an interesting experience
12:31 AM vmt: poor programming, i must say
12:31 AM rue_mohr: most of the differences are large borders, and hilighting the active gui object
12:32 AM rue_mohr: becasue each object, be it a button or text box was 'carefully operated' :D
12:32 AM rue_mohr: we have a much more casual approach, being that we all know what to expect and how to operate
12:34 AM rue_mohr: one of the things i cant understand about modern programs
12:34 AM vmt: when are you going to materialize your gui-framework, written on your bathroom mirror?
12:34 AM rue_mohr: is how I can click a button, it changes state graphically, and does not trigger the function its tied to
12:35 AM rue_mohr: I have to click things slowly
12:35 AM rue_mohr: how could the layers in modern software be that thick?
12:36 AM vmt: name me a few examples and how to reproduce them?
12:36 AM rue_mohr: if the graphic changes, how could the event handler not be called
12:36 AM rue_mohr: I can do this repeatedly on linux and windows
12:36 AM rue_mohr: usually just buttons
12:36 AM vmt: well give me a few examples
12:36 AM rue_mohr: like "send" in outlook
12:36 AM vmt: and how can you be so sure of the program's internal state? you're not one for debuggers, they're from the devil!
12:37 AM rue_mohr: they works if I click them SLOWLY
12:37 AM vmt: i don't have access to ms outlook right now, can you give me some other examples?
12:38 AM rue_mohr: the favorite buttons in firefox, on linux
12:38 AM rue_mohr: the play button in xmms
12:38 AM vmt: okay elaborate on the ff, how do i reproduce?
12:39 AM rue_mohr: the open button on the panasonic configuration program
12:39 AM rue_mohr: you cant
12:39 AM rue_mohr: you cant click fast enough
12:39 AM rue_mohr: and you cant see
12:39 AM rue_mohr: and you cant see fast enough
12:39 AM vmt: :D
12:39 AM vmt: i'm actually guessing you are a master troll
12:40 AM rue_mohr: can you see flourescent lights strobe, ones that everyone else looks at and says are normal?
12:40 AM rue_mohr: prolly not
12:40 AM vmt: i haven't tried, but i'm sure you can
12:40 AM rue_mohr: in my world, most people cant seem to see, hear, understand, much of anything
12:41 AM vmt: does this world exist confined in your head?
12:42 AM rue_mohr: sadly no
12:42 AM rue_mohr: but I'm glad you think I'm crazy
12:42 AM vmt: do you or your family have recorded history of mental illnesses?
12:43 AM rue_mohr: I live in an interesting, frustrating world
12:44 AM vmt: i think relocating to a warmer climate would do you good, canaderp is no bueno
12:44 AM rue_mohr: it doesn't help that people like you persist that programs should be 64 bit and use candy theme gui objects
12:45 AM vmt: i haven't said anything about architecture
12:46 AM rue_mohr: I'm sure your like the rest
12:46 AM rue_mohr: :/
12:46 AM vmt: i also haven't said anything about "candy themes", just that you can produce much better looking (and more usable) widgets than those of motif yourself
12:46 AM rue_mohr: I'm developing an attitude
12:47 AM rue_mohr: you said that the program I'm doing is garbage cause it looks like its out of the 80's
12:47 AM vmt: you're developing some obsolute piece-of-shittery, having a mindset of something being 20+ yrs old, it must be performant
12:48 AM vmt: i said, were you a real programmer you'd whip up your own, better-looking more functional widget kit than fucking motif, rofl
12:48 AM rue_mohr: exactly , tho you havn't suggested what it should look like
12:49 AM vmt: i'm not a designer at heart, sadly. though there are very minimalistic designs which are highly functional without venturing into asceticism
12:50 AM vmt: motif-backend is probably garbage too, have you considered the possibility?
12:50 AM rue_mohr: it is
12:50 AM vmt: so this begs the question, why use it?
12:50 AM rue_mohr: the coders did not understand objects, and inheritance
12:50 AM vmt: jesus christ
12:51 AM rue_mohr: generic obejcts have all sorts of stitching for things like the dialogs they were using them for
12:51 AM vmt: and this is in the realm of metaprogramming, sadly i'm not interested in it, also it's irrelevant
12:51 AM rue_mohr: for example, rowcolumn, a layout object, is completely specialized to be a menu
12:51 AM vmt: shouldn't you use something better, then?
12:52 AM rue_mohr: I didn't go into it knowing that
12:52 AM vmt: as i already asked, when are you going to implement your own, the bathroom mirror one?
12:52 AM vmt: well, your program is ~800 LOC as you said, it definitely is not too late to revise the design
12:53 AM rue_mohr: tkinter / python was pretty nice
12:55 AM vmt: so, you accuse me of producing bloat software and then you hop into talking about python?
12:55 AM vmt: come on, man
12:56 AM rue_mohr: I use it for spooling nc files to my cnc machine
12:57 AM rue_mohr: if you get into cnc machines it works nic
12:57 AM rue_mohr: e
12:57 AM rue_mohr: I coudn't find a working one on the net
12:58 AM rue_mohr: left me with a major WTF
12:58 AM vmt: poor programming
12:59 AM rue_mohr: but in the coding of it, turns out that the python serial library had an error that made it so listing serial device ports didnt' work properly on linux
12:59 AM rue_mohr: or was it a character type problem, anyhow, one of the python libs needed a minor mod for the program to work :/
12:59 AM rue_mohr: the new ones are ok, iirc
01:00 AM vmt: garbage.
01:00 AM rue_mohr: I wish I had more time
01:01 AM vmt: drop the dayjob and show the world what you've got in store
01:02 AM rue_mohr: I commend jesseg for his program, dispite the state of the code, it works tho, its got what it needs
01:02 AM rue_mohr: it would not work
01:02 AM rue_mohr: nobody cares
01:02 AM rue_mohr: it shows in the arduino thing
01:04 AM vmt: is the code hosted somewhere?
01:04 AM rue_mohr: user arduino libraries, their everywhere
01:04 AM rue_mohr: few of them work right
01:04 AM rue_mohr: most of them work just enough
01:05 AM rue_mohr: for the one thing they were made for
01:14 AM vmt: rue_mohr: but this specific one?
01:16 AM rue_mohr: dude, anything try any arduino library, it even applies to those published by arduino and try to use them
01:16 AM rue_mohr: you cant just waltz around not having triedd anything saying its all justfine
01:25 AM rue_mohr: for kicks, startw tih libraries to play short wav files
01:25 AM rue_mohr: they tend to play the header as audio, ignore the bitrates, and trim off the last part of the audio if it didn't fill the buffer
01:25 AM rue_mohr: but I'd imagine you will say thats not a problem
01:25 AM rue_mohr: beacsue nobody else apparently has a problem with them
01:25 AM rue_mohr: my bar is just too high
01:25 AM rue_mohr: ""
01:25 AM vmt: apparently quite low given you're using motif
01:27 AM rue_mohr: lots of my choice of motif is because of the accuracy of its documentation
01:28 AM rue_mohr: if you grab 3 random Qt examples, they wont work
01:28 AM vmt: hey come on man, originally you said the documentation is basically crap
01:28 AM rue_mohr: all motif examples do work
01:28 AM rue_mohr: provided you update them with two minor changes
01:28 AM vmt: does that mean the documentation is accurate?
01:29 AM rue_mohr: which are actaully gcc
01:29 AM vmt: or even extensive?
01:29 AM rue_mohr: main() needs to be int now, so you have to put 'int' before main()
01:29 AM vmt: you're just out there man
01:29 AM rue_mohr: and stdlib / stdio are not default includes anymore, so *sometimes* you need to include those
01:30 AM rue_mohr: aside from that, all the motif stuff works
01:30 AM rue_mohr: as long as you are ok with the objects that exist, your fine
01:30 AM rue_mohr: lots fo detailed docs
01:31 AM rue_mohr: unfortunatly for me, I insisted on pushing a boundry with an object layout
01:31 AM rue_mohr: had to make my own gui layout object,
01:31 AM rue_mohr: THAT is where it got pretty dark
01:32 AM rue_mohr: luckily, the motif source is public now, so I had lots of example code to work from
01:32 AM vmt: 07:55:14 rue_mohr | lots of this has been trying to find my way thru parts of the motif library that are completely undocumented, things that have misleading names
01:32 AM vmt: 07:55:24 rue_mohr | so there is a lot of WTF? code
01:32 AM rue_mohr: ^^^
01:32 AM vmt: ^^^^
01:32 AM rue_mohr: becasue I insisted on making my own widget
01:33 AM rue_mohr: almost nobody does that, or really ever did, apparently
01:33 AM vmt: i keep seeing the word "lots" and "uncodumented"
01:33 AM vmt: motif is garbage, and so are you
01:33 AM rue_mohr: yes, when it comes to making motif widgets, esp. advanced layout ones, your kinda on your own
01:34 AM rue_mohr: I swear , if you weren't the last person to talk to in the world dude....
01:34 AM vmt: i know, i'd be long banned
01:35 AM rue_mohr: technically, it would take another person to ban you
01:35 AM rue_mohr: I wont ban based on personal oppinion, someone else has to complain
01:35 AM vmt: do you kick, however?
01:35 AM rue_mohr: totally
01:35 AM vmt: i usually get the hint, no need for a ban
01:35 AM rue_mohr: hee haw!!!
01:36 AM rue_mohr: awe :( no comeback
01:36 AM rue_mohr: crap
01:38 AM rue_mohr: * arg, cant think*
04:44 AM [1]MrMobius is now known as MrMobius
06:40 AM jesseg: Good Morning gents
06:40 AM jesseg: <vmt> drop the dayjob and show the world what you've got in store
06:40 AM jesseg: LOL that's what I did. Turns out there wasn't a whole lot to see :P
06:45 AM jesseg: vmt, yeah, my awful code is hosted here: http://videoflier.com/gwcad/
07:24 AM polprog: i dig your gui toolkit
07:24 AM polprog: looks like a computer game ;)
07:51 AM vmt: morning
07:54 AM vmt: jesseg: duuude. is there a reason your code is in a single file?
07:56 AM jesseg: vmt, I'm a stupid programmer? LOL I don't know how to make makefiles, and I don't really understand linking multiple object files, and I'm lazy. I kind of have plans to break it apart but so far I haven't. And before I set up a git server, I just emailed myself the source code file as a form of backup and having it as one file made that easier LOL.
07:56 AM vmt: hahah
07:59 AM vmt: there are other build tools than make if you don't feel like it, or you can even write your own script for building, if you feel like so. though make is quite universal and worth learning
07:59 AM jesseg: vmt, yeah I usually just make a bash script so I don't have to type out the whole long build line. But anyway I'm a farmer not a progrmamer :P http://videoflier.com/movies/1473893230982110482996
11:00 AM rue_mohr: jesseg, have 15 mins?
11:00 AM rue_mohr: and a compiler?
12:24 PM [1]MrMobius is now known as MrMobius
03:15 PM jesseg: rue_mohr, sorry I was out
03:15 PM jesseg: and I'm heading out again after eating something
03:29 PM JanC_ is now known as JanC
06:33 PM [1]MrMobius is now known as MrMobius
11:31 PM day__ is now known as day