#avr Logs
May 06 2018
#avr Calendar
02:36 AM antto: rue_shop4 i used a build script that supposedly can build avrgcc+avrbinutils+avrlibc for linux/windows/osx
02:40 AM antto: i modified it a bit to only build for linux
02:40 AM antto: that script afaict just downloads the source code, unarchives it, then does ./configure and make, then make install-strip
02:40 AM antto: i changed the --prefix paths
02:44 AM antto: ehm, here's the build script i was using: http://blog.zakkemble.co.uk/avr-gcc-builds/
02:59 AM Ameisen: I'm doing some... more unusual build steps to make end-binaries smaller
02:59 AM Ameisen: which is complicating the toolchain build
03:03 AM nuxil: did you get avr-libc sorted out?
03:05 AM Ameisen: having difficulties building it.
03:05 AM Ameisen: Doesn't like the system I'm building on. It's the first package to complain :|
03:07 AM nuxil: :\
03:07 AM Ameisen: their config script does a check for the system you're building on... which is weird
03:07 AM Ameisen: has configs for like, cray and such
03:12 AM nuxil: config script? as in ./configure , if so, why would that be strange? that makes perfect sense to me knowing what system youre configureing.
03:12 AM Ameisen: Because I've never seen one this detailed and specific.
03:13 AM Ameisen: Knowing if you're building on mingw, linux, or BSD is one thing
03:13 AM Ameisen: but wanting to know if you're building for some random 68K machine last used in the 80s?
03:13 AM Ameisen: err, on
03:13 AM nuxil: hehe
03:18 AM polprog: compqtiability ftw
03:19 AM polprog: just in case you wanted to build it on netbsd on a VAX.
03:19 AM polprog: :D
03:28 AM antto: i was trying to find when did "crtatmega*.o" turned into "crtm*.o" but not finding anything
03:31 AM antto: so i guess either avrlibc has changed to shorter names, or this naming (full vs shorter) is maybe an optional thing during the avrlibc build process
03:31 AM antto: how do i tell?
03:31 AM nuxil: why are you all building avr-libc ? is there a new version out or something,
03:32 AM nuxil: antto, cheeck the options with ./configure and see if there is some option
03:32 AM antto: nuxil afaik, the library must be built with the same compiler (and version, probably) which you use for the project
03:32 AM antto: like, you can't take avrlibc which works with avrgcc 3.x.x and use it with avrgcc 5.x.x
03:33 AM antto: nuxil how do i check the options with ./configure ?
03:33 AM antto: i tried ./configure --help, but.. x_x
03:33 AM nuxil: ./configure --help ?
03:33 AM nuxil: oh
03:34 AM antto: there's --enable-device-lib "build separate device library"
03:35 AM antto: there's also --program-prefix=PREFIX, --program-suffix=SUFFIX, --program-transform-name=PROGRAM "run sed PROGRAM on installed program names"
03:36 AM nuxil: no idea what they do.
03:36 AM nuxil: i just install my stuff though apt . im to lazy compiling software so i cant really help you there :\
03:36 AM Thrashbarg: ./configure --just-get-on-with-it-your-verbose-command-switches-are-driving-me-nuts
03:36 AM Thrashbarg: :P
03:37 AM antto: (these are for avr-libc-2.0.0)
03:37 AM Thrashbarg: yea the simple solution is to find a precompiled binary :/
03:39 AM antto: it's like avrgcc and avrlibc are no longer best friends :/
03:39 AM Thrashbarg: what about ln -s crtm2561.o crtatmega2561.o
03:40 AM nuxil: Thrashbarg, thats not really a solution
03:40 AM Thrashbarg: I agree
03:41 AM antto: sure, that could work.. the thing is, in my avrgcc (from synaptic/atmel), there are just crtatmega2561.o, no symlinks (at least i don't see symlinks)
03:44 AM nuxil: antto, what gcc version are you compiling with
03:45 AM antto: gcc version 6.3.0 20170516 (Debian 6.3.0-18+deb9u1)
03:46 AM nuxil: well
03:47 AM nuxil: idk. try compiling with version 5
03:48 AM nuxil: "The main reason for the version jump was that support for
03:48 AM nuxil: GCC 5+ has been added, which uses a different mulitilib
03:48 AM nuxil: layout."
03:48 AM nuxil: thats what on their page
03:49 AM nuxil: so anything above 5 should work. unless there is major changes in 6 tho.
03:54 AM nuxil: this is why i hate compiling software.. gives more headache than joy :p
03:55 AM antto: i'm building avrgcc 7.3.0 tho
03:55 AM nuxil: i leave the headche part to others :)
03:55 AM antto: so avrlibc itself must be built with that
03:55 AM antto: afaik
03:56 AM nuxil: yeh, your toolchain should be built with same version of gcc
04:00 AM antto: wut
04:00 AM antto: why?
04:01 AM nuxil: because less headache :D
04:01 AM antto: you mean i should use gcc 7.3.0 (for debian) if i want to build avrgcc 7.3.0?
04:02 AM antto: i searched in avrgcc (the one from atmel/synaptic) and i don't find crtm2561.o nor any symlinks
04:07 AM antto: hm, in "avr-libc-2.0.0/obj-avr/avr/lib/avr6/atmega2561/Makefile" i see "AVR_TARGET_CRT = crtm2561.o" and then a comment saying "avr-gcc > 5.1.0 expects crt file as crt<device name>.o and device library in multi-lib directory itself"
04:07 AM antto: then there is a commented-out "#AVR_TARGET_CRT = crtatmega2561.o"
04:08 AM antto: so.. something in avrlibc has changed, but the compiler looks for crtatmega2561.o, i guess that comes from the "specs" file
04:15 AM nuxil: can you add something like this to your make file.
04:15 AM nuxil: GCC_VER := $(shell echo `gcc -dumpversion | cut -f1-2 -d.` \>= 5.1 | bc )
04:15 AM nuxil: ifeq ($(GCC_VER),1)
04:15 AM nuxil: AVR_TARGET_CRT = crtatmega2561.o"
04:15 AM nuxil: else
04:15 AM nuxil: "AVR_TARGET_CRT = crtm2561.o
04:15 AM nuxil: endif
04:20 AM nuxil: im still using version 4.9.2 :p
04:23 AM antto: o_O
04:24 AM antto: nuxil i don't have a make file
04:24 AM nuxil: <antto> hm, in "avr-libc-2.0.0/obj-avr/avr/lib/avr6/atmega2561/Makefile
04:24 AM antto: oh, that one is auto-generated, according to what it says at the top
04:25 AM nuxil: ah
04:25 AM nuxil: why what ? :p
04:25 AM nuxil: *by
04:26 AM antto: "Makefile.in generated by automake 1.15 from Makefile.am." "avr/lib/avr6/atmega2561/Makefile. Generated from Makefile.in by configure."
04:26 AM nuxil: god damn.. like following a deep rabbit hole
04:27 AM antto: my nose tells me that maybe the spec files are wrong/old, and iiuc, those are part of avrgcc
05:17 AM Ameisen: nuxil - also frustrating because if, say, 'ar' is not named _exactly_ avr-ar, configure fails
05:18 AM Ameisen: avr-gcc-ar, for instance, need not apply
05:21 AM antto: Ameisen have you built avrlibc2.0.0 yet
05:21 AM Ameisen: working on it
05:21 AM Ameisen: its configuration system is very... weird
05:22 AM Ameisen: it doesn't ./configure like anything else
05:23 AM antto: i built everything here, but the result is an avrgcc compiler which looks for non-existant crt library files
05:23 AM antto: :~(
05:23 AM antto: i blame Emil
05:24 AM Ameisen: well, that's not avr-libc's fault
05:24 AM Ameisen: probably
05:24 AM Ameisen: avr-gcc just wants certain CRTs
05:24 AM Ameisen: they gotta come from somewhere
05:25 AM antto: it seems avrlibc now outputs shorter names like "crtm2561.o" and says that this is for avrgcc 5.1.0 or greater
05:25 AM Ameisen: well, then change it
05:25 AM antto: but the spec file from the compiler still look for the longer naming "crtatmega2561.o"
05:25 AM antto: change it - where?
05:26 AM antto: IMO this is an inconsistency
05:26 AM Ameisen: grep for the string
05:26 AM Ameisen: and change it to the other one
05:26 AM antto: i know i can work around it
05:27 AM antto: i don't understand these makefile/configure black magic rituals :~(
05:27 AM Ameisen: nobody does
05:27 AM antto: i expected things to just work
05:27 AM antto: muhaha
05:28 AM antto: actually, that's not even funny
05:28 AM Ameisen: It is the responsiblity of the Adeptus Mechanicus Tech-Priests to maintain the makefiles
05:28 AM antto: we'll sooner or later get to a point when there's not a single person on this planet that understands how this software works ;P~
05:30 AM Ameisen: if this builds successfully...
05:31 AM Ameisen: it will be a... very interesting avr-libc, to say the least
05:31 AM antto: (assuming you already built your avrgcc) can you check what does your spec files say for some random atmega?
05:32 AM antto: for the startup files
05:32 AM Ameisen: don't have to build it to look at spec files
05:32 AM antto: you don't?
05:32 AM antto: where do they come from? i thought they are auto-generated
05:32 AM Ameisen: they're in the source
05:33 AM antto: okay, wherever they are
05:33 AM Ameisen: ah
05:33 AM Ameisen: they're partially generated
05:33 AM antto: do they say "crtmXX.o" or "crtatmegaXX.o" ?
05:33 AM Ameisen: crtatmega2561.o%s
05:34 AM antto: so you're in my boat >:)
05:34 AM antto: or i'm in yours
05:34 AM antto: or.. wait.. who's boat is this?
05:34 AM antto: and where are we sailing towards?
05:34 AM antto: what's that noise that gets louder and louder?!
05:34 AM Ameisen: building avr-libc with lto
05:35 AM antto: does that mean just adding -flto ? ;P~
05:35 AM Ameisen: no
05:35 AM Ameisen: it's annoyingly complex
05:35 AM antto: huehue
05:35 AM Ameisen: especially with the stupid configure scripts for avr-libc
05:36 AM antto: i pretty much am giving up here
05:36 AM antto: but i got one last idea i might try
05:36 AM antto: i saw that debian-buster has (afaict) avrgcc 5.4.0
05:37 AM antto: i'll try to see what's in its spec files
05:38 AM antto: with avr-libc-2.0.0
05:39 AM antto: if those have the same "inconsistency" then i'll feel less stupid
05:42 AM Ameisen: hmm
05:42 AM Ameisen: for LTO to be optimal... I'll need to change some of those assembly files into C files with functions with inline asm
05:59 AM Ameisen: so far I haven't gotten avr-libc to accept CFLAGS
06:04 AM antto: fail.. https://packages.debian.org/buster/amd64/gcc-avr/filelist
06:04 AM antto: 5.4.0 seems to have nothing to do with the avrgcc version :~(
06:19 AM antto: okay, there's some good news
06:19 AM antto: https://packages.debian.org/sid/all/avr-libc/filelist
06:20 AM antto: this avrlibc has the same short names as i'm getting
06:20 AM Ameisen: Are you doing make install
06:20 AM antto: which must mean that if you're on debian sid, and you install avrgcc+avrlibc - boom, they "won't work"
06:21 AM antto: Ameisen, i use slightly modified build-script from here: http://blog.zakkemble.co.uk/avr-gcc-builds/
06:22 AM Ameisen: the reason I ask is it's plausible that make install generates symlinks
06:22 AM antto: my modifications were to disable building for anything besides linux, and changed the --prefix paths of both the compiler and avrlibc to the same path /opt/avrgcc/
06:22 AM antto: the build-script uses make install-strip afaict
06:22 AM Ameisen: crtatmega2561.o
06:23 AM Ameisen: is what my build made
06:23 AM antto: really?!
06:23 AM Ameisen: yes
06:23 AM antto: avr-libc-2.0.0?!
06:23 AM Ameisen: yes
06:24 AM antto: hao do u do that? :~(
06:24 AM * Ameisen shrugs
06:24 AM antto: what else could be possibly happening
06:24 AM Ameisen: my build procedure is going to be pretty different to yours
06:24 AM Ameisen: and I'm building different things
06:25 AM antto: the only other thing i can think of is, i have avrgcc 4.9.2 too, could the build procedure be using THAT instead of the 7.3.0 to build avrlibc?
06:25 AM antto: but that makes no sense
06:25 AM antto: imma uninstall it and retry
06:26 AM Ameisen: well
06:26 AM Ameisen: avr-libc doesn't really have a clear way to specify _where_ your binaries are
06:26 AM nuxil: yes it can
06:26 AM Ameisen: it uses whatever is in the path
06:26 AM Ameisen: unless you set every binary's path explicitly for it
06:26 AM antto: i think the build-script plays with the PATH thing
06:27 AM Ameisen: if 4.9.2 is first in the paths, it will be used.
06:27 AM Ameisen: mmm
06:27 AM Ameisen: avr-libc built
06:27 AM Ameisen: though I need to write a packaging routine for it to copy over the archives.
06:28 AM nuxil: check if your avr-gcc is version 4.9.2 or 7.3 cos
06:28 AM nuxil: you might need to spisify avr-gcc-7-x
06:28 AM Ameisen: gcc version 8.1.0
06:28 AM Ameisen: :D
06:30 AM Ameisen: Why are you building 7.3 anyways
06:31 AM antto: coz that's what that build-script does
06:31 AM antto: and i assumed it should work because i got the windows version at the job and it worked
06:32 AM antto: i think imma throw that away and try to write my own script
06:32 AM antto: i hope i don't erase my harddisk :/
06:32 AM Ameisen: and why do you presume that it is meant to coexist with another build system
06:33 AM Ameisen: mine doesn't conflict because msys isolates paths
06:33 AM antto: hm?
06:35 AM antto: i use /opt/avrgcc for these, so they don't mix with the ones from debian/synaptic
06:36 AM antto: during normal use, the PATH won't matter for me, coz i use an IDE which calls the "right" compiler
06:41 AM antto: this build-script is nasty cuz it always downloads, unarchives, and builds everything
06:41 AM antto: while i'm only having issues (i think) with avrlibc
06:45 AM antto: okay, woohoo, i see crtatmega2561.o now
06:47 AM antto: but the old files were not removed from /opt/avrgcc/ meeeh
06:48 AM antto: oh, and binutils, i forgot those
07:21 AM MrFahrenheit: hey nuxil, your white pla, is it actually white? my printer came with "white" pla, but I don't like it, it's shiny and kinda translucent
07:22 AM nuxil: my white pla is white. but if you have little infill or thinn walls it can seems translucent.
07:28 AM antto: success, finaly
07:36 AM antto: after the build script finishes, i got no avrlibc "installed", so i had to manually go into the avrlibc source folder and rebuild it from terminal
08:19 AM nuxil: MrFahrenheit, iirc standard wall thickness is 0.8mm try increase it to 1mm or 1.2mm do the same for bottom and top. print a test cube. atleast until the bottom is completed, hold it up towards a light. adjust settings until your happy.
08:22 AM nuxil: antto, now update to 8.x :p
08:25 AM antto: no, thanks
08:25 AM antto: 7.3.0 seems to have C++14, that should be nifty enough for now
08:28 AM nuxil: thou have no need for c++ :p
08:29 AM antto: i do
08:29 AM nuxil: MrFahrenheit, you can alway recolor you pla filament
08:30 AM nuxil: or try to. :p
08:30 AM nuxil: i dont know if its possible with pla. but its possible to color nylon
08:31 AM nuxil: maybe this works on pla too :p https://richrap.blogspot.no/2013/04/3d-printing-with-nylon-618-filament-in.html
08:35 AM nuxil: antto, why?
08:36 AM antto: coz it has gud things
08:38 AM nuxil: im sure it does. but what gud things does it have that improves things with avr ?
08:39 AM antto: "with avr" ?!
08:39 AM nuxil: i mean you would ofc use c++ for big complex stuff. like desktop apps and such. but why use it with avr/embeded stuff? whats the gain ?
08:39 AM antto: my firmware is big
08:40 AM nuxil: big is relative.
08:41 AM MrFahrenheit: neat effect, nuxil
08:41 AM nuxil: yea
08:43 AM antto: nuxil it's over 90kB right now
08:45 AM nuxil: thats no reason to go C++ :p
08:47 AM nuxil: just trolling.. you use whatever makes you happy. i just dont like c++
08:49 AM nuxil: i guess the only reason Ameisen is making his own sdk thingy is so he can get c++17 :d
08:58 AM antto: i seriously have no idea how you'd deal with a big project entirely in ASM
08:58 AM antto: like, it must be the love of your life
09:03 AM nuxil: asm is another story.. and i dont code much in it. you need to trun a switch in you head when doing asm and think alot different. :p
09:04 AM nuxil: my point was what kind of complexity are you making that requires you to use C++ instead of C on a avr chip.
09:05 AM nuxil: so far the only reason you gave is size. thats not a valid one. but if c++ if what you use normaly then sure. code in whatever works.
09:05 AM nuxil: c++ just confuses me :p
09:05 AM nuxil: so i dont use it
09:07 AM antto: this project specifically comes from adafruit and was about less than 15kB, for atmega162
09:08 AM antto: i modified it, it now runs on atmega2561 and has moar things
09:08 AM antto: it was written in C originally, and i was coding in C up until recently
09:09 AM antto: so it was 90kB already before i switched to C++
09:09 AM antto: one of the first things i wasn't happy about was the USART+FIFO code
09:10 AM antto: with C, i could use structures for holding the data, and functions using pointers to the structures, but that just looks messy
09:11 AM antto: i think that way i get some slowness cuz the pointer stuff
09:12 AM antto: in C++, this can be improved by using methods instead of dumb functions, and might even run a bit faster if templates are used properly
09:12 AM twnqx: uhm
09:12 AM antto: also, i can use the same FIFO template class to get two FIFOs with a different size
09:14 AM antto: there's other things too which will get less messy after i rewrite them with classes
09:15 AM antto: i got other stuff which have "data structure + functions" that can be nicely wrapped in a class with methods
09:15 AM antto: like a voice allocator, a RNG, a buffered eeprom thing, etc..
09:36 AM antto: nuxil does it make sense?
10:59 AM antto: * nuxil.exe has crashed: segmentation fault
11:02 AM antto: break;
11:18 AM antto: funny little fact, with SDCC - your temporary variable declarations have to be at the top of the scope, before any function calls
11:19 AM Tom_L: like global
11:20 AM antto: i think not just function calls
11:20 AM antto: you can't have if/while stuff and then declare a temp variable after that
11:32 AM rue_shop4: your never supposed to do that
11:32 AM rue_shop4: the variables should always be at the top of the fn
11:34 AM rue_shop4: and because not many people directly code in C/C++ anymore, they use other languages to generate it
11:35 AM rue_shop4: it wouldn't be bloatware if it wasn't written in something that use atleast 3 intermediate languages linked togethor using some kinda background message service
12:00 PM rue_shop4: no function should be longer than what you can fit on your screen anyhow
12:00 PM rue_shop4: if so, someone dosn't know how to break down their operations properly
12:01 PM rue_shop4: sdjfsaklhdf
12:46 PM Emil: polprog: you know what I'm about to design
12:46 PM Emil: (out of fun)
12:47 PM Emil: a very simple board but make it as-flat-as-possible
12:47 PM Emil: which means milling holes for all the components :D
12:47 PM Emil: >qfn cutout
12:47 PM Emil: >passives cutout
12:47 PM Emil: >drop-in microusb port
12:47 PM Emil: dis gon be gud
12:48 PM Emil: Next question is if I want to use m328pb or m32u4
12:48 PM Emil: latter would save on bom and make the device simpler
12:48 PM Emil: but software would be a pita
12:48 PM Emil: first is super reliable but adds bom
12:52 PM rue_shop3: futhermore, there is no need to keep code to 40 columns BECAUSE WE ARE NOT GONNA GO BACK TO PUNCH CARDS
01:04 PM polprog: < MrFahrenheit> oh yeah, everyone loves seeing 10 variables declared at the top instead of
01:04 PM polprog: when they're used
01:04 PM polprog: say hello to sdcc
01:05 PM polprog: Emil: nice. do you think it can be FR4-thin?
01:05 PM polprog: :D
01:05 PM Emil: FR4 is material
01:05 PM polprog: you know what i mean
01:05 PM Emil: no I don't :D since pcb thickness is entirely what you pay for
01:05 PM Emil: 0,8mm is the same cost as 1,6mm
01:05 PM Emil: everything else is variable
01:05 PM polprog: let me get my calipers and a random PCB
01:06 PM Emil: polprog: anycase, you are asking if it can become 1.6mm thick?
01:06 PM Emil: I say yeah
01:06 PM Emil: it can
01:06 PM polprog: yea
01:06 PM polprog: thats what i mean
01:06 PM polprog: t
01:06 PM Emil: well
01:06 PM Emil: you have to have some solder over the pcb thickness
01:06 PM Emil: but all the components pretty much fit inside
01:06 PM polprog: sdcc needs to have variables declared at the beginning of a function :v
01:06 PM polprog: like in c89 (?)
01:07 PM Emil: the microusb connector might protrude a bit
01:07 PM Emil: also declaring variables at the top is super convenient and nice
01:07 PM polprog: i was thinking, metalized holes cut in half so they can house an 0603 passive inside, oe 1206
01:07 PM polprog: or*
01:07 PM Emil: do remember tit's still block level "top"
01:07 PM polprog: ???
01:08 PM Emil: scope
01:08 PM polprog: variable's scope?
01:08 PM Emil: yes
01:08 PM Emil: I claim it's super nice to always declare the variables at the top of the scope/block
01:08 PM polprog: i agree its prety conveinient but until the point where you have your loop counter defined there
01:09 PM Emil: that's why you can define the loop index inside the for loop
01:09 PM polprog: i feel like its a mess, to have the counter with a scope in the whole function instead of the loop
01:09 PM Emil: personally I still define all loop indexes at the top
01:09 PM polprog: you can? thats even bigger mess
01:09 PM Emil: it's nice
01:09 PM polprog: :D
01:09 PM Emil: eh?
01:09 PM Emil: for/int i=0; i<n; i++) {...}
01:10 PM polprog: nope, not in sdcccp
01:10 PM polprog: xD
01:11 PM polprog: buy hey. i can use it to write code for the z80 in my ti-83
01:11 PM polprog: :D
01:16 PM tpw_rules: tfw not a ti-89
01:16 PM Emil: >mfw using obsolete calculators
01:17 PM Emil: >mfw 'Murican unis require them
01:17 PM tpw_rules: i mean my dd is an nspire cas
01:17 PM Emil: dd?
01:17 PM polprog: daily driver
01:17 PM tpw_rules: but the ti-89 is better cause 68k > z80
01:17 PM tpw_rules: daily driver
01:17 PM tpw_rules: nspire cx cas*
01:17 PM polprog: ive got a ti-89 emulator on my phone
01:17 PM Emil: yeah I like mine, too
01:17 PM polprog: i paid 8 bucks for that 84
01:17 PM Emil: got it for like 70€ or something because I could use the teacher discount
01:17 PM tpw_rules: i learned like last week they aren't very good at garbage collection tho
01:18 PM Emil: Also there's a niceish desktop app for the nspire
01:18 PM tpw_rules: i set mine to not hibernate cause i hate waiting for it to boot and it kept getting progressively slower over like a year or so. then a message popped up: "low system memory. please reboot handheld"
01:18 PM tpw_rules: i never got it working due to licensing issues
01:19 PM tpw_rules: ti basic on those things is lit af too
01:19 PM Emil: ti basic?
01:19 PM Emil: Oh yeah
01:19 PM Emil: there's "native" programming on the nspire
01:20 PM tpw_rules: yeah you can also do lua
01:20 PM tpw_rules: i think i have a micropython app on mine
01:20 PM Emil: tpw_rules: are you a student?
01:20 PM tpw_rules: but i don't use it cause i can't stand the keyboard
01:20 PM tpw_rules: yeah
01:20 PM Emil: what uni what major?
01:20 PM tpw_rules: why
01:20 PM polprog: < Emil> got it for like 70€ or something because I could use the teacher discount
01:21 PM Emil: Just curious
01:21 PM tpw_rules: u of memphis, electrical and computer engineering
01:21 PM tpw_rules: brb
01:21 PM polprog: i forgot youre a teacher
01:21 PM polprog: :D
01:21 PM Emil: polprog: naw
01:21 PM Emil: polprog: I abused my aunts teacher status :D
01:21 PM polprog: lol
01:21 PM Emil: I'm also not a teacher teacher
01:21 PM polprog: good
01:21 PM Emil: even though I am a teacher :D
01:21 PM polprog: youre an AVR preacher
01:21 PM polprog: yo yo
01:21 PM Emil: welllll
01:22 PM Emil: if you can call me stating the facts as preaching then sure :D
01:22 PM Emil: tpw_rules: nice
01:23 PM Emil: tpw_rules: anycase Aalto University, EE/ECE
01:23 PM tpw_rules: but i am currently at the hochschule ulm in germany doing a study abroad program
01:23 PM Emil: ah cool
01:24 PM tpw_rules: at the risk of sounding like a massive twat waffle, the computer engineering part is really just for show. i sleep through all those classes cause i know them
01:24 PM Emil: heh
01:24 PM Emil: polprog: in uni it's super easy to get "teaching" gigs
01:24 PM tpw_rules: the electrical engineering ones are fun, but i wonder to what degree some of them are useful
01:24 PM Emil: you are not a teacher by title but you are very much a teacher
01:24 PM tpw_rules: my favorite are lab gigs
01:25 PM Emil: it depends
01:25 PM polprog: Emil: this is the proper way to write a for loop int *i = malloc(sizeof(int)); for(*i=0; *i<10; (*i)++){ printf("how to write unreadable code\n"); }
01:25 PM Emil: polprog: for z80?
01:25 PM Emil: fo the ti-83?
01:25 PM tpw_rules: polprog: tfw no casting arrays to function pointers
01:25 PM polprog: Emil: i like teaching (sharing knowledge) so i think i will have to get into the gigs
01:25 PM polprog: Emil: no for general C
01:25 PM Emil: polprog: yeah teaching is nice
01:25 PM polprog: i wonder if sdcc would take that
01:26 PM tpw_rules: does sdcc have malloc
01:26 PM polprog: wait damn
01:26 PM tpw_rules: heaps on things like that scare me
01:26 PM polprog: i forgot to check if malloc returned NULL!!!
01:26 PM polprog: damn
01:26 PM * polprog files a bug report
01:26 PM Emil: polprog: but why must you malloc?
01:26 PM tpw_rules: polprog: write self modifying code, from C
01:27 PM polprog: Emil: why the hell not
01:27 PM polprog: i could calloc and write the loop as for(; *i<10; (*i)++){}
01:27 PM Emil: polprog: I mean you can get better unreadability and nicer bugs with static arrays :D
01:28 PM polprog: int * get_loop_counter();
01:28 PM Emil: tpw_rules: masters or just bachelors?
01:28 PM polprog: static inline
01:28 PM tpw_rules: Emil: just bachelors. idk how much i want a masters, it's a growing question in my life
01:28 PM tpw_rules: (char*)&get_loop_counter[39]++;
01:29 PM Emil: tpw_rules: if you can skip paying for masters in Yurop then dododo
01:29 PM tpw_rules: Emil: oh i still have to go back to the states for some more semesters
01:29 PM Emil: or if you want it cheaper than stateside
01:29 PM Emil: tpw_rules: unlucky you :D
01:29 PM tpw_rules: idk. i'm extremely fortunate that it's not so much about the money but about the time and value it would be
01:30 PM tpw_rules: you would have to surprise me with research for me to do it lol
01:30 PM Emil: I highly recommend getting masters
01:30 PM tpw_rules: really? why?
01:30 PM Emil: because bachelors is just learning the basics
01:30 PM polprog: master of disaster
01:30 PM Emil: and all the actual deeper knowledge comes in masters
01:31 PM Emil: and most people don't even acquire the understanding in bachelors
01:31 PM tpw_rules: sure, but to be a twatwaffle again, i feel like i've got a lot of that already
01:31 PM Emil: even though you most certainly can
01:31 PM tpw_rules: like i've already got places begging for me in hot fields. but idk i kinda hate myself
01:31 PM Emil: lulz
01:31 PM Emil: nice
01:31 PM Emil: what fields?
01:31 PM Emil: polprog: also next year uni right?
01:31 PM tpw_rules: neural networks. the military
01:32 PM tpw_rules: i hate both but i did internships and they love me
01:32 PM Emil: does the mil really pay that well?
01:32 PM polprog: Emil: i kinmda wish but no. im 18 in less than a month, one year of HS left. then uni (i hope)
01:32 PM Emil: I thought it was only midlevelish income
01:32 PM tpw_rules: i don't know, i haven't run the numbers
01:32 PM tpw_rules: i definitely don't support it...
01:32 PM polprog: my birthday is on 28th but dont let anyone from dalnet know. they give b-day KILLs :D
01:32 PM Emil: though if you live in a low cost of life state then it might be nice
01:32 PM Emil: polprog: kek
01:33 PM tpw_rules: does a masters degree get a phd?
01:33 PM Emil: tpw_rules: hm?
01:33 PM tpw_rules: i mean i do but it's sucky
01:33 PM Emil: what?
01:33 PM Emil: I don't understand the question
01:33 PM tpw_rules: well the answer was about the low cost of living state
01:33 PM tpw_rules: the question is: are masters and phd the same thing
01:33 PM Emil: ah it was a sarcastic question
01:34 PM tpw_rules: no i geniunely don't remember
01:34 PM Emil: wot
01:34 PM Emil: you don't? :D
01:34 PM Emil: PhD is another 2-6 years
01:34 PM tpw_rules: okay yeah it is a doctoral degree
01:34 PM tpw_rules: yeah everyone irl says i should get a phd
01:34 PM Emil: 2 if you are very fucking skilled and pay for the PhD
01:34 PM Emil: and 4-6 if you are normal
01:35 PM Emil: tpw_rules: hätäseis
01:35 PM Emil: :D
01:35 PM tpw_rules: what
01:35 PM Emil: PhD sure gets you a lot of respect and opens doors
01:35 PM Emil: but the way there is paved with fucking you in the ass
01:35 PM Emil: or so I hear
01:35 PM tpw_rules: i mean i admit it does. and yeah i hear that too
01:36 PM Emil: https://www.sahkonumerot.fi/2310007/img/large/color.jpg
01:36 PM Emil: polprog: 28th of this month?
01:36 PM tpw_rules: like i hear a phd is awarded on completion of something nobody has every done before, truly advancing the frontiers of knowledge or whatever
01:36 PM Emil: polprog: heyheyhey
01:36 PM tpw_rules: and while everybody says i could do that it just seems lame. i like fiddling and improving. i'm a damned engineer :P
01:36 PM polprog: Emil: yeah
01:36 PM polprog: 28-05-18
01:36 PM Emil: polprog: apply for the EU interrail thing
01:36 PM polprog: oh, right!
01:36 PM polprog: thanks for reminding me
01:37 PM tpw_rules: psh trains
01:37 PM Emil: my brother can't apply because the twats restricted it to just fucking people who turn 18 before 1.7. or so
01:37 PM tpw_rules: all of my experiences with deutsche bahn have been bad
01:37 PM Emil: tpw_rules: the concept is awesome, though
01:37 PM tpw_rules: i bought a car instead :P
01:37 PM Emil: and it's a really nice experience (not that I've done it)
01:37 PM Emil: tpw_rules: haha :D
01:38 PM Emil: tpw_rules: "yes" to advancing knowledge, you really do need to do actual research and stuff
01:38 PM Emil: but it can be very small
01:38 PM Emil: and usually is
01:38 PM Emil: tpw_rules: if you don't really want to stay in the academic life then don't do PhD
01:39 PM tpw_rules: see i have done that already. <twatwaffle>like i got published in the international journal of neural networks and presented at their conference</twatwaffle>
01:39 PM Emil: but if you enjoy being in university and having time to fiddle with things
01:39 PM polprog: the best part is that after PhD you can gain minions to do research for you
01:39 PM Emil: polprog: only if you reach a professure
01:39 PM polprog: yeah
01:39 PM Emil: and only once you reach tenure are you set
01:39 PM tpw_rules: but like i feel someone would have to surprise me. have someone find me in my lair and pop out of a stack of garbage and be like "you know you just solved this open question that's been holding back something for a hundred years"
01:40 PM tpw_rules: then i would be okay with it. but like idk how to research except by accident and in anger
01:40 PM Emil: before you reach tenure it can be gruelling to be a prof
01:40 PM Emil: tpw_rules: share the paper
01:40 PM tpw_rules: gimme a min, laundry just finished. dorm lyf
01:40 PM polprog: what is the paper about?
01:40 PM polprog: im curious, i like reading those
01:41 PM Emil: polprog: he's sharing the paper so we'll see
01:41 PM polprog: [i should be reading pan tadeusz but 210 pages, written as a poem, where each line has 13 syllables, i consider harmful a bit]
01:41 PM Emil: polprog: http://www.youdiscover.eu/
01:42 PM Emil: tpw_rules: also funny that you are in ECE and doing neurals
01:42 PM Emil: instead of being in CS
01:42 PM polprog: i mean, those neurals have to run on something?
01:42 PM polprog: NN-centered ASICs? that sounds sexy and expensive
01:43 PM tpw_rules: yeah those are a thing
01:43 PM tpw_rules: i need to visit a dude in zurich that is doing them
01:43 PM tpw_rules: i mean i've only been published in neurals by tripping over things
01:43 PM polprog: ?
01:43 PM tpw_rules: i don't particularly like them
01:43 PM Emil: ":D"
01:43 PM Emil: now that's humblebrag
01:43 PM tpw_rules: 99% of the field is charlatans and warmongers
01:44 PM antto: rue_shop4 >:(
01:44 PM tpw_rules: remember that phd kid that invented the neural network which can remove coverings from faces and someone was like "you know authoritarian regimes have been salivating over this" and he's like "oh lol i guess that's bad but i'm just an algorithms guy"
01:45 PM antto: you haven't seen my big-a$$ program that is basically 94% a single function with a huge-a$$ switch ()
01:45 PM Emil: antto: is it also very expensive program?
01:45 PM antto: no
01:45 PM polprog: antto: if it compiles :D
01:45 PM antto: it compiles
01:45 PM Emil: antto: you can swear in this channel
01:45 PM Emil: this channel is a swearing #safespace
01:45 PM polprog: maybe his ISP censored them out
01:45 PM Emil: if it's not completely unreasonable
01:46 PM Emil: polprog: good point
01:46 PM polprog: like my nickserv password
01:46 PM polprog: *******
01:46 PM antto: this one: http://antonsavov.net/cms/public/img/c0nb0x_101_pe.png
01:46 PM tpw_rules: Emil: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ql9wqw397xkqxzr/102_0657.pdf?dl=0 i'm second author. first author agreed i shoulda been first but whatever
01:46 PM Emil: polprog: see how well my custom script works
01:46 PM polprog: antto: its beautiful
01:46 PM Emil: just by typing hunter2 it's turned into stars!
01:46 PM antto: yes, until you see the source code
01:47 PM tpw_rules: but like i thought i was just spending all day in matlab and playing GTA all night on the government's dime until suddenly it was a paper
01:48 PM polprog: which GTA?
01:48 PM tpw_rules: sigh. it worries me
01:48 PM tpw_rules: GTA5
01:48 PM Emil: antto: what program is that?
01:48 PM polprog: it will be quake [1-3] in my case
01:48 PM polprog: i should download quake live
01:48 PM tpw_rules: i got them to purchase a gtx 1080ti and install it in my home pc
01:48 PM Emil: tpw_rules: ":D"
01:49 PM polprog: confessions of a bachelor
01:49 PM polprog: :D
01:49 PM Emil: "I _NEED_ this for ...research"
01:49 PM tpw_rules: hey! during work hours i remoted in and used it
01:49 PM antto: Emil c0nb0x, obviously
01:49 PM polprog: tpw_rules: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/42/c1/37/42c137658199f34bd101a3ed2acaf6a5.jpg
01:50 PM tpw_rules: yeah that was basically it
01:50 PM tpw_rules: adam savage is so great
01:50 PM Emil: antto: oh cool
01:50 PM tpw_rules: "i. love. consistent. dataahahahhHAHAHAHHAHAH"
01:50 PM Emil: tpw_rules: to get back on that "remove coverings"
01:50 PM tpw_rules: what
01:51 PM Emil: a) it's only guessing b) I personally have zero issues with cool tech existing :D
01:51 PM tpw_rules: oh
01:51 PM polprog: id love to understand that paper, :v
01:51 PM tpw_rules: i thought you found a typo in the paper
01:51 PM Emil: tpw_rules: so if you get a good job from mil why not
01:51 PM Emil: tpw_rules: haha :D
01:51 PM tpw_rules: polprog: oh god you have no idea how many hours i spent trying to find all the stupid math symbols to express my matlab code
01:51 PM antto: Emil it's the "control" program for the x0xb0x synth.. it can "talk" to its bootloader (to flash a new firmware) and to its firmware (to control stuff, import/export patterns, etc..)
01:51 PM polprog: tpw_rules: i liked LaTeX
01:51 PM tpw_rules: like if you just dropped some code in instead of using subscripted subscripts maybe people could learn. but no!
01:51 PM polprog: i guess you used that as well
01:52 PM antto: i made it with allegro5
01:52 PM Emil: tpw_rules: also eww methlab is the fucking worst
01:52 PM tpw_rules: i mean i did to write the paper
01:52 PM tpw_rules: Emil: yup
01:52 PM tpw_rules: but my co-researchers were too old to understand python
01:52 PM polprog: lol
01:52 PM tpw_rules: incidentally the department of defense is too cheap to buy more than like three matlab compiler licenses
01:52 PM tpw_rules: so some days i spent like four hours just trying to check out my license
01:53 PM tpw_rules: hpc programming was fun tho. at least the parts that weren't ruined by matlab
01:53 PM polprog: what was the name of that gnu matlab clone
01:53 PM polprog: octave!
01:53 PM tpw_rules: octave
01:53 PM tpw_rules: i don't get it
01:53 PM polprog: hpc ?
01:53 PM Emil: tpw_rules: I mean, Methlab is niceish to use
01:53 PM antto: what was Maxima a clone of?
01:53 PM tpw_rules: the only reason anyone pays for matlab is the toolboxes
01:53 PM antto: i use wxMaxima
01:53 PM tpw_rules: polprog: high performance computing
01:53 PM Emil: the have goodish documentation and it has everything integrated
01:54 PM Emil: but hot damn it is propietary
01:54 PM Emil: and costly
01:54 PM tpw_rules: i have a pirated copy of the full 2017 matlab on my laptop and hoo boy the toolboxes
01:54 PM tpw_rules: i think i did the math and it would have cost like $260,000 to get it legit
01:54 PM Emil: yeah
01:54 PM Emil: exactly
01:54 PM tpw_rules: but now i've got like the "autonomous driving toolbox"
01:54 PM tpw_rules: "aerospace playset"
01:54 PM polprog: i need to get matlab on my laptop
01:54 PM polprog: just in case i would ever need it
01:55 PM tpw_rules: Emil: i would unironically figure out how to pay all $260,000 if only i didn't have to use matlab language or ide
01:55 PM tpw_rules: trading toolbox! i can make a tesla competitor and automatic stock shorter
01:55 PM Emil: polprog: just pirateit
01:55 PM polprog: Emil: sshhh
01:55 PM Emil: polprog: or once you are in uni
01:55 PM Emil: polprog: just download the copy
01:56 PM Emil: and then when you finish your studies just apply again
01:56 PM polprog: ftp.icm.edu.pl/donotopen/matlab.zip
01:56 PM Emil: and get in
01:56 PM polprog: :P
01:56 PM Emil: polprog: >not found
01:56 PM Emil: aww
01:56 PM tpw_rules: matlab for students is mildly lame
01:56 PM tpw_rules: and still costs $100
01:56 PM Emil: costs?
01:57 PM Emil: free for us in Funland
01:57 PM Emil: at least in Aalto
01:57 PM tpw_rules: matlab student edition is $99 in US
01:57 PM tpw_rules: oh lol so our uni has matlab available over rdp for free
01:57 PM tpw_rules: but they left the license server open
01:57 PM Emil: and you can download pretty much all the toolboxes
01:57 PM Emil: :DD
01:57 PM tpw_rules: so i just plugged it into my copy on my laptop and whee, activated matlab
01:58 PM Emil: I can download Methlab on to my computer for free from the school legally
01:58 PM polprog: would they be pissed if you downloaded 1000 licenses?
01:58 PM tpw_rules: idk. my biggest hangup with matlab is the language
01:58 PM polprog: by accident?
01:58 PM Emil: does it realy cost you in States?
01:58 PM Emil: all my lulz
01:58 PM tpw_rules: i mean most unis offer it for free either over rdp or via some arrangement with the uni
01:58 PM tpw_rules: polprog: i couldn't do that cause it's a license server
01:58 PM tpw_rules: but a lot of kids buy matlab student edition for $99 cause it's less of a pita than chitrix
01:58 PM tpw_rules: shitrix*
01:58 PM Emil: hehe
01:59 PM polprog: lol https://scontent-amt2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/31450220_2440553769303737_5232525975381076510_n.png?_nc_cat=0&oh=f45975ceae2e39ab31423782bf5df9c5&oe=5B99BB96
01:59 PM tpw_rules: lol
02:00 PM polprog: sounds dangerous. i have no idea what that is and im not sure if i wanna know
02:00 PM polprog: for now the plan is to pass the final exam
02:00 PM polprog: i guess
02:00 PM tpw_rules: i'm just scared of noncommutativity
02:00 PM tpw_rules: eew
02:00 PM Emil: tpw_rules: are you not mentioned in the research paper?
02:01 PM tpw_rules: Emil: i'm second author
02:01 PM tpw_rules: Thomas Watson
02:01 PM Emil: so there's another Thomas Watson in Memphis?
02:01 PM tpw_rules: yah i think so
02:01 PM Emil: I mean
02:01 PM tpw_rules: i run into him on campus every so often
02:01 PM tpw_rules: iirc i'm white, he's black
02:01 PM Emil: you are not the assistant professor, right? :D
02:01 PM tpw_rules: no
02:01 PM Emil: no he's white, too
02:01 PM Emil: http://www.memphis.edu/cs/people/faculty_pages/thomas-watson.php
02:01 PM polprog: assistant to the proffesor*
02:01 PM tpw_rules: huh, then that makes 3
02:01 PM Emil: http://www.cs.memphis.edu/~twwtson1/
02:01 PM tpw_rules: nop, def not me
02:02 PM polprog: you should make an uni club of thomas watsons
02:02 PM tpw_rules: the only reason i want a phd incidentally is so i can be dr. watson like the rest of my medical doctor family
02:02 PM Emil: haha :D
02:03 PM polprog: a doctor for haling robots and stuff :D
02:03 PM polprog: healing*
02:03 PM Emil: "I need healing"
02:03 PM tpw_rules: i would totally be a medical doctor cause they're like 99% the same except i would be afraid of killing someone
02:03 PM tpw_rules: incidentally why i'm not taking a job from the military
02:04 PM polprog: "oh look, they left spare parts again", "hey, its different in the book"
02:04 PM tpw_rules: oh god one of the massive defense contractors loves me. they come to all our job fairs and they send a guy almost specifically to suck my dick
02:04 PM Emil: :DDDD
02:04 PM tpw_rules: we took a tour on campus and the first thing they showed us was a new bomb they made when they were bored
02:04 PM polprog: my sides hurt :D
02:05 PM tpw_rules: then they passed around a solo cup full of the buck shot it would use to shred the women and children the other bombs didn't quite get
02:05 PM polprog: thats... not something to do when you are bored
02:05 PM tpw_rules: that's what you do if you're a defense contractor lol
02:05 PM tpw_rules: like it wasn't even made for anything in particular, they just had the idea and were waiting for a contract to apply it to
02:06 PM Emil: tpw_rules: I'd be right at home there :D
02:06 PM polprog: Emil: do you make bombs when you are bored?
02:06 PM Emil: I mean I don't agree with the shit they do but explosions are awesome as heck
02:06 PM Emil: polprog: "no"
02:06 PM tpw_rules: they had a reverse engineering lab which would have been quite interesting except i didn't want to get sucked into the rest
02:06 PM polprog: oh shit awesome, two days of no clouds! http://www.meteo.pl/um/php/meteorogram_list.php?ntype=0u&fdate=2018050612&row=406&col=250&lang=pl&cname=Warszawa
02:07 PM polprog: Emil: :DD
02:07 PM tpw_rules: "Once the rockets are up, who cares where they come down? That's not my department", says Wernher von Braun
02:07 PM tpw_rules: i think reverse engineering is fun but again i don't feel skilled cause i've only done it on useless old crap
02:08 PM tpw_rules: (again i kinda hate myself)
02:08 PM Emil: polprog: shhh
02:08 PM Emil: polprog: but really naw
02:09 PM Emil: reverse engineering is only fun so far
02:09 PM Emil: Making new shit is much more entertaining
02:09 PM Emil: reverse engineering is soul sucking after a while
02:09 PM tpw_rules: see but then it might be wrong
02:10 PM tpw_rules: well like i said i haven't done anything where they've prevented me
02:11 PM tpw_rules: but whatever. i've still designed a reasonable amount of stuff
02:11 PM tpw_rules: current project is the dashboard for the formula student car here
02:11 PM tpw_rules: got the prototype hw working great a couple days ago, now to design the board
02:12 PM tpw_rules: that was todays plan but it's apparently irc time instead :P
02:12 PM polprog: nice
02:12 PM polprog: i wanted to get a car dashboard once but the scrapyards only have metal
02:12 PM polprog: :/
02:13 PM Emil: cool
02:13 PM Emil: they started a student run formula club in aalto too
02:13 PM Emil: tpw_rules: irctime best time
02:13 PM polprog: Emil: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvaHAkmKuBI
02:14 PM Emil: also, next episode of My Hero Academia and The Seven Deadly Sins S2 should be out
02:14 PM Emil: and I should write some event proposals and design the board mentioned way up and goto sleep and wake up at 7ish :D
02:14 PM tpw_rules: https://www.dropbox.com/s/h9t46sz8bbz1ur0/File%20May%2006%2C%2021%2012%2017.mov?dl=0
02:15 PM tpw_rules: i'm quite proud of the software engineering that went into that
02:15 PM Emil: tpw_rules: you can view shit on that once driving
02:15 PM tpw_rules: hm?
02:16 PM Emil: also what's driving it?
02:16 PM polprog: tpw_rules: have you though about a HUD display?
02:16 PM tpw_rules: polprog: there's no windshield lol
02:16 PM Emil: polprog: hätäseis :D
02:16 PM tpw_rules: the screen is being driven by an nxp lpc11c24
02:16 PM Emil: well, it could actually work
02:16 PM Emil: but it sucks the time out of relevant development :D
02:16 PM tpw_rules: the same code is running on PC and the chip, but the pc is generating can messages for both the pc sim and the real thing
02:16 PM polprog: oh look google transalte was set to finnish from my last time
02:17 PM Emil: polprog: >:D
02:17 PM Emil: tpw_rules: makefiles?
02:17 PM Emil: or some ide
02:17 PM Emil: tpw_rules: but that does look pretty cool
02:17 PM tpw_rules: Emil: worse: a pile of python scripts!
02:17 PM tpw_rules: the nxp side is done with mcuxpresso. the python side is done with cffi
02:17 PM Emil: waitwaitwait
02:17 PM Emil: you run python on the arm?
02:17 PM tpw_rules: no
02:18 PM tpw_rules: it uses cffi to build the C code as a python module
02:18 PM Emil: oh you mean you run python to compile?
02:18 PM tpw_rules: so then i just import it and call the 2 interrupt routines, and install callbacks for the four screen functions
02:18 PM Emil: or that's the toolchain for the mcu
02:18 PM tpw_rules: the window you see on the pc is drawn with python
02:18 PM tpw_rules: and pygame
02:18 PM Emil: tpw_rules: Oh I don't care about the desktop app that much ;)
02:19 PM Emil: even though it looks awesome
02:19 PM Emil: more curious about the hardware toolchain
02:19 PM tpw_rules: that's just mcuxpresso lol
02:19 PM Emil: so ideshit?
02:19 PM tpw_rules: yeah
02:19 PM Emil: :(
02:19 PM tpw_rules: i couldn't be bothered to do anything else. plus then i don't have to install anything
02:19 PM tpw_rules: why lol
02:19 PM Emil: "don't have to install anything"
02:19 PM tpw_rules: there's like 100 lines of it in there lol
02:19 PM Emil: >proceeds to install bloat ide
02:20 PM tpw_rules: i mean figure out how the fuck to set up a gcc cross compilation toolchain vs one .app
02:20 PM Emil: I mean sure the value proposition is there
02:20 PM tpw_rules: plus i like debuggers
02:20 PM Emil: I just can't shove it thrown my throat :D
02:20 PM tpw_rules: hate eclipse tho
02:20 PM Emil: down*
02:20 PM tpw_rules: if it makes you feel any better almost the only thing i use the ide for is to press the "compile and download" button
02:21 PM tpw_rules: i wouldn't dare code in it
02:21 PM tpw_rules: sorry but yeah toolchains don't really excite me
02:21 PM tpw_rules: lennox sux
02:22 PM Emil: you take that back
02:22 PM Emil: also they don't excite me either
02:22 PM Emil: but I mean
02:22 PM Emil: I rather shit in a comfortable bathroom where I know it works
02:23 PM tpw_rules: that's why i only buy apple products :)
02:23 PM Emil: instead of in a propietary IDE where you must first do steps x y z before you can shit
02:23 PM tpw_rules: all of my linux machines require me to replumb them every time i turn them on
02:23 PM tpw_rules: which reminds me my server in the US can't be rebooted rn cause i'm not sure if it has a bootloader or not
02:24 PM Emil: tpw_rules: you mean linode?
02:24 PM tpw_rules: i have a linode but i'm talking about the one in my closet at home
02:24 PM Emil: then one you are ircin from?
02:24 PM Emil: ah
02:24 PM Emil: of course it has a bootloader
02:24 PM Emil: the reboot command should work 99,99% of time
02:24 PM polprog: all of my linux machines require me to replumb them every time i turn them on <--- lol what?
02:24 PM tpw_rules: there was some freakish raid-card related crash, then i had to reinstall all of zfs, which fucked up the grub packages, but i tried to fix them
02:25 PM Emil: wot
02:25 PM Emil: :D
02:25 PM tpw_rules: so idk if i have no bootloader or one that can't read my filesystem
02:25 PM polprog: lol
02:25 PM Emil: so you booted it once after installing
02:25 PM tpw_rules: so no. i will not be rebooting it until i get back to the US
02:25 PM Emil: and didn't even check? D:
02:25 PM tpw_rules: somehow no
02:25 PM tpw_rules: oh
02:25 PM tpw_rules: no this all transpired while i was in germany
02:25 PM Emil: aaah :D
02:25 PM tpw_rules: i installed it and rebooted it semi-regularly for updates and stuff over the past several years
02:26 PM Emil: so it's running
02:26 PM Emil: and then you fucked shit up
02:26 PM Emil: and now you don't dare to reboot
02:26 PM tpw_rules: but like i said the raid card had a heart attack so i had someone in the US kick it and it came back up, but then it unlocked a kernel update which did who knows
02:26 PM tpw_rules: so yeah. i won't breathe on it
02:26 PM Emil: hardware raid is like
02:26 PM tpw_rules: it's not hardware raid, it's just used as more sata ports
02:26 PM Emil: something I won't ever do unless there's real easy data duplication happening
02:27 PM tpw_rules: but yeah it's a raidz2 array
02:27 PM tpw_rules: one of my more used linux machines was configured for a year or so to run arch entirely out of RAM
02:27 PM tpw_rules: so it's not like i'm bad at linux, it's more like i can't be arsed and/or am constantly hoisted by my own petard
02:27 PM Emil: polprog: is uni 3 yeas in pl?
02:28 PM polprog: Emil: i dont know
02:28 PM polprog: usually yes
02:28 PM polprog: but i will probably stay if its fun
02:28 PM tpw_rules: lolol
02:29 PM tpw_rules: that "usually" does a lot of work in the US too
02:29 PM polprog: 3 years you get i think masters? i have no idea
02:29 PM Emil: polprog: äh
02:29 PM Emil: I meant hs
02:29 PM polprog: ah yeah
02:29 PM polprog: HS is 3 years. technical school is 4
02:29 PM Emil: polprog: your uni is 5 years for masters
02:29 PM Emil: same as in finland
02:29 PM Emil: 3 years for just bachelors
02:30 PM Emil: and I mean
02:30 PM polprog: okay, that makes sense
02:30 PM Emil: in Finland we have a target of 5 years for masters
02:30 PM tpw_rules: do you guys have any cool projects going on
02:30 PM Emil: and around 25-40% of people meet it
02:31 PM Emil: tpw_rules: it depends on what you mean by "going on"
02:31 PM tpw_rules: have thought about in the last week
02:34 PM polprog: https://puu.sh/AhiEv/4ba05de895.jpg
02:34 PM Emil: nice
02:34 PM Emil: does it clickclack?
02:34 PM Emil: or is the press soft?
02:34 PM polprog: no, its MX black
02:34 PM Emil: wait
02:34 PM Emil: it's custom?
02:34 PM Emil: and not dumpster dived?
02:34 PM polprog: no, i took some of the keys off a dead lighting console
02:35 PM polprog: which happened to have MX switches as well
02:35 PM polprog: i wish kinda, there was some dumpster to dive here
02:35 PM polprog: maybe i could fish out a model M
02:37 PM Emil: polprog: goto university
02:37 PM polprog: while true
02:37 PM Emil: I have friends pulling 2015 Macbook Airs and 4k touch screens from the dumpster
02:37 PM Emil: I'm never that lucky
02:37 PM polprog: lol
02:37 PM polprog: i wish i had a vt520
02:37 PM polprog: or a 420
02:37 PM polprog: or a 320
02:38 PM polprog: or whatever
02:39 PM polprog: Emil: check this out https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVp6NH59d3M
02:39 PM polprog: aphex twin
03:21 PM polprog: "Development for TempleOS began in 2003 after Davis suffered from a series of manic episodes that left him briefly hospitalized for mental health issues."
03:21 PM polprog: this is the best sentence in the whole Computer Science realm
03:22 PM thardin: blessed terry
03:22 PM thardin: the racism always catches me off guard tho
03:23 PM thardin: templeos has some legit neat ideas
03:33 PM Ameisen: havind difficulties getting linking working.
03:33 PM Ameisen: Mainly having collect2 crash.
03:33 PM Ameisen: not sure why, yet
03:36 PM Emil: thardin: if it has neat ideas
03:36 PM Emil: thardin: we should incorporate those into whatever
03:37 PM polprog: no network = no viruses
03:37 PM * polprog rips out his NIC
03:40 PM Ameisen: no network = no cylons
03:40 PM Emil: "you must construct additional pylons"
03:40 PM polprog: battlestar galactica
03:40 PM polprog: hmm heard about it, never watched
03:43 PM Emil: https://www.fairchildsemi.com/datasheets/US/USB1T11A.pdf
03:43 PM Emil: Should or should not :D
03:43 PM Emil: 76 cents on Mouser
03:43 PM Emil: In single quantity :D
03:44 PM * Ameisen rebuilds prereqs again
03:44 PM Ameisen: need to figure out why ld is crashing
03:44 PM Ameisen: not erroring but crashin
03:46 PM Emil: ah it might be just the transceiver
03:46 PM Emil: Leaving all the logic to the mcu
03:48 PM Ameisen: hmm
03:48 PM Ameisen: I might want to bootstrap the compiler
03:49 PM Ameisen: that would eliminate a potential issue
03:49 PM polprog: that chip looksneat
03:50 PM polprog: USB seems to difficult for me
03:50 PM Emil: usb is a clusterfuck
03:56 PM thardin: Emil: the way every function in every HolyC program is accessible to every other HolyC program is pretty neato
03:56 PM thardin: and function calls
03:56 PM thardin: err system calls
03:56 PM thardin: i think the alto did something like that too
03:57 PM thardin: not to mention dat inline multimedia
03:58 PM thardin: want a picture to be drawn somewhere? just past it into the code as an argument to the draw-picture function
03:59 PM Emil: http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/Atmel-42073-MCU_Wireless-ATmega2564RFR2-ATmega1284RFR2-ATmega644RFR2_Datasheet.pdf
03:59 PM Emil: Should or should I not
03:59 PM Emil: of course with rf pa
04:04 PM thardin: 8-bit micro with wifi? hmm
04:04 PM polprog: what could go wrong :v
04:05 PM Emil: thardin: not wifri
04:05 PM Emil: unfortunately
04:05 PM thardin: right, would be hard to get the needed grunt
04:26 PM LeoNerd: Hrm... ATmega with built-in radio?
04:31 PM Emil: yeah
04:31 PM Emil: I bet with a power amplifier and some sacrifices to the RF gods you could make a pretty cool thing out of it
04:32 PM LeoNerd: Hmm.. when I've done radio things before I've delegated that out to those nice nRF24 modjules
04:32 PM Emil: >nice
04:32 PM Emil: >nrf24l01+ module from ebay
04:32 PM Emil: choose one
04:33 PM Emil: the modules are literally your very basic point of entry
04:33 PM Emil: they are not doing any sacrifices to the RF gods
11:24 PM day__ is now known as day