#avr Logs
Mar 28 2018
#avr Calendar
01:17 AM polprog: morninv
01:20 AM polprog: s/v/g/
01:36 AM Haohmaru: hm, can you make actual commercial (closed-source) stuff on ARM with the gcc compiler?!
01:37 AM Haohmaru: while most of the CMSIS stuff is BSD/apache license, this "newlib" thing seems fishy
01:37 AM Thrashbarg: I believe that is the case, but it's a fine line to tread
01:38 AM Haohmaru: newlib is a "C library", right? it gives you stuff like printf() C string functions and such, right?
01:38 AM nohitz: yes
01:39 AM _ami_: Haohmaru, you don't need newlib in most of the cases.
01:39 AM Haohmaru: do i need it if i want to code in C++ ?
01:39 AM _ami_: No.
01:39 AM Haohmaru: i guess i need a C++ library
02:13 AM Haohmaru: hm, it seems newlib is developed by multiple companies, and the license is "each file has its own license, but if not, here are these licenses that apply:" and amongst them i see LGPL
02:19 AM Haohmaru: and in newlib-nano i see GPL
02:20 AM * Haohmaru presses the EJECT button
02:59 AM nohitzwork: i dont no mcuh about these license but we use newlib
02:59 AM nohitzwork: so what is the problem with it
03:14 AM Haohmaru: it surely looks like chunks of it are under LGPL
03:14 AM Haohmaru: and maybe GPL too (not too sure about this)
03:15 AM nohitzwork: is that a problem
03:15 AM nohitzwork: my co-worker says its not a problem, we are doing closed source project too
03:19 AM Haohmaru: afaik, then you need to fall under the (L)GPL too, or link to that lib dynamically (which is not very possible on embedded)
03:20 AM Haohmaru: and the typical solution afaik is to provide your .o files, so that your super sikrit code can be re-linked into a binary using a potentially different newlib.o
03:20 AM Haohmaru: or even the same newlib.o, compiled by the user
03:54 AM nohitzwork: im looking at this c++ library that comes with true studio
03:55 AM nohitzwork: its GNU ISO C++ Library, at least that's what the headers say
03:56 AM Haohmaru: hm?
03:57 AM Haohmaru: for C++ so far i found uClibc++ which is LGPL
03:57 AM Haohmaru: it looks promising tho, has exceptions and shizzle
03:57 AM Xark: Bzzzt!
03:57 AM Haohmaru: RTTI
03:57 AM Haohmaru: ehm i meant RAII
03:57 AM Haohmaru: dafuq
03:58 AM Haohmaru: but i have no idea how i'd glue uClibc++ to my project, i have the feeling that there has to be some glueing between them in order to make constructors work
03:58 AM Haohmaru: and exceptions
03:58 AM Xark: Too bad muscl is C only...
03:59 AM Haohmaru: i could go without a C++ library too, probably
03:59 AM Haohmaru: i don't think i use any standard C++ features on xmega
03:59 AM Haohmaru: i use printf() tho
04:00 AM Haohmaru: i'm fine making my own array classes and sh*t
04:00 AM Haohmaru: i also found this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NuttX
04:00 AM Haohmaru: it's BSD, but it looks like a huge universe of overkill for my purposes
04:01 AM nohitzwork: with newlib, you just need to implement few low level system calls and that's it
04:02 AM Xark: newlib has GPL, AFAIK...
04:04 AM nohitzwork: but yeah, keep banging your head against the wall if ya want, with true studio you would have c++14 support out of the box, all the middlewares()RTOS, usb, cube mx support...
04:04 AM nohitzwork: its not that different than code blocks
04:04 AM nohitzwork: if you have used one ide, you have used them all
04:05 AM Haohmaru: newlib-nano certainly has GPL, i saw it
04:23 AM Haohmaru: nohitzwork i can't find any info about what C++ lib this truestudio comes with
04:23 AM Haohmaru: but it's fishy cuz there's a paid version, and one guy asking on the forum about the C++ library features got no clear answer
04:24 AM Haohmaru: it also has big system requirements
04:26 AM nohitzwork: what paid version ?
04:26 AM Haohmaru: of truestudio
04:26 AM nohitzwork: there is no such thing, since ST aquired atollic
04:26 AM nohitzwork: its free now
04:27 AM Haohmaru: why do i see a payed version then ;P~
04:27 AM Haohmaru: * paid
04:27 AM nohitzwork: links
04:27 AM Haohmaru: i closed them ;P~
04:28 AM Haohmaru: https://atollic.com/pricing/
04:29 AM Haohmaru: there's a "Pro" version
04:29 AM nohitzwork: are you blind ?
04:29 AM nohitzwork: first thing on that page:
04:29 AM nohitzwork: You can no longer purchase a license for TrueSTUDIO Pro
04:29 AM nohitzwork: The new version of TrueSTUDIO for STM32 includes all Pro features at no charge for STM32 developers! Download today.
04:30 AM Haohmaru: i skip the big-font text usually
04:30 AM nohitzwork: the pro version is the only version now and its free
04:30 AM Haohmaru: scroll down
04:31 AM nohitzwork: there's no point of scrolling down
04:31 AM Haohmaru: i don't have extra 2GB RAM for this thing
04:31 AM Haohmaru: in any case, i need an alternative C/C++ library
04:31 AM Haohmaru: and a way to get C++ working
04:32 AM Haohmaru: i think i'll try CMSIS++
04:56 AM _ami_: Haohmaru, it can be a good excuse to upgrade your PC (request your employer) ;)
05:00 AM MrFahrenheit: man, they're selling x86 tablets with hd ips screens for $99 now
08:54 AM rue_: wasn't that a ms thing that flopped?
08:54 AM rue_: x86 is out, arm is in
09:12 AM polprog: i think surface used arm
09:12 AM polprog: but i may be wrong..
09:18 AM rue_: just about everything uses arm
09:18 AM rue_: there will be an ARM PC, just wait
09:18 AM rue_: prolly with a stupidly high core count
09:18 AM rue_: it'll be more than 4
09:18 AM Haohmaru: i want LEG
09:19 AM rue_: Last Epic Gpu?
09:20 AM rue_: 1024k cores at 3Ghz with 4TB ?
11:16 AM MrFahrenheit: polprog, no, surface is x86
11:16 AM polprog: oh. okay
11:16 AM polprog: still sucks
11:16 AM polprog: :D
11:17 AM polprog: oops
11:17 AM MrFahrenheit: looks pretty good to me, hardware wise
11:18 AM polprog: i was mashing buttons on my rigol while is was starting up and it booted up in chineese rofl
11:19 AM MrFahrenheit: and why did you do that
11:19 AM polprog: no idea
11:19 AM polprog: wanted to see what happens
11:20 AM MrFahrenheit: I'm making c bindings for that rust usbtmc lib, btw
11:20 AM polprog: hmm
11:20 AM polprog: have fun
11:21 AM MrFahrenheit: would have finished by now, but I decided to use an automatic c header generator... been debugging its output ever since
11:21 AM polprog: what do you do exactly?
11:21 AM polprog: lol
11:21 AM MrFahrenheit: but man, it's gonna save me a whole 5 minutes in the end
11:22 AM MrFahrenheit: what do you mean what do I do, writing that scope communication library, I mentioned it before
11:22 AM polprog: if you dereference a ptr, the value you get is called what? dereferenced value? value under the adress of pointer?
11:22 AM MrFahrenheit: pointee?
11:23 AM polprog: i mean what does writing C bindings consist of?
11:28 AM MrFahrenheit: writing wrapper functions and making a header file
11:29 AM polprog: thats what i meant
11:30 AM MrFahrenheit: also figuring out error handling and stuff like that
11:31 AM MrFahrenheit: do you think it's better to go with "int lib_init(opaque_t**)" or with "opaque_t* lib_init()"
11:32 AM polprog: never did anything more than a fizz buzz in rust so i have no idea
11:32 AM polprog: i think the latter ones better
11:33 AM MrFahrenheit: I mean in c
11:33 AM polprog: ah
11:33 AM MrFahrenheit: the first one is more consistent with other functions that return 0 on success
11:33 AM polprog: yeah thats right
11:33 AM MrFahrenheit: the second one returns NULL on error
11:34 AM polprog: return zero on success, like most linux calls
11:34 AM polprog: id go with the first one
11:34 AM MrFahrenheit: good call
11:57 AM antto is now known as h4x0riz3d
12:26 PM h4x0riz3d is now known as antto
12:41 PM Ameisen: hmm
12:41 PM Ameisen: I either need to improve my build scripts substantially for releasing this toolchain
12:41 PM Ameisen: or rewrite them in C++
12:41 PM Ameisen: C++ would be somewhat more portable than keeping them in ruby
12:41 PM antto: i vote for the Pizza option!
12:42 PM Ameisen: I mean, I do live in Chicago
12:42 PM Ameisen: so we have a lot of pizza
12:42 PM antto: mm, shikaaagoh
12:42 PM Ameisen: [09:17:16] <rue_> there will be an ARM PC, just wait
12:42 PM antto: my cat just agreed about the pizza
12:42 PM Ameisen: an ARM PC requires somebody with good enough fabrication processes and knowledge to be making ARM chips for high performanc.e
12:43 PM Ameisen: the number of sheer performance-related features on a modern x86-64 chip is just staggering
12:43 PM Emil: polprog: did you get it working?
12:43 PM Ameisen: and confusing
12:43 PM antto: most thanks to ugly tricks and hacks ;P~
12:43 PM polprog: Emil: havent touched it today
12:43 PM Ameisen: we call those algorithms.
12:43 PM Ameisen: :|
12:43 PM Ameisen: And if they work, they work
12:44 PM antto: with nifty side effects ;P~
12:44 PM Ameisen: If Intel were to make a high performance ARM chip, it would be interesting.
12:44 PM antto: "hey, why wait for the condition? just execute teh next instructions lolololo"
12:44 PM Ameisen: They have zero motivation to do that, though.
12:44 PM Ameisen: Why not?
12:45 PM Ameisen: The chip is perfectly capable of rolling back, and it's proven that it's faster to do that overall.
12:45 PM Ameisen: also, I know that Samsung ARM chips perform speculative execution as well.
12:45 PM Ameisen: It's not quite as efficient due to the lower op density
12:45 PM Ameisen: but still
12:46 PM Ameisen: Or you could do what MIPS does, and use branch delay slots :P
12:46 PM Ameisen: though the deeper your pipeline, the more delay slots you'd need
12:47 PM Ameisen: A big reason is that Intel has better fabs and tends to hire/skim engineers
12:47 PM antto: i read bad things about their compiler ;P~
12:48 PM Ameisen: I don't use ICC
12:48 PM antto: nor do i, but it's a bad sign ;P~
12:48 PM Ameisen: Why?
12:48 PM Ameisen: The people involved in writing compilers aren't the same people designing chips
12:48 PM antto: guz they ain't playing fair with the competition
12:49 PM Ameisen: Why are they obligated to make their software work well for competitor's equipment?
12:49 PM Ameisen: AMD is welcome to make a compiler
12:49 PM antto: why? gcc gud enuf
12:50 PM Ameisen: if GCC is good enough, why do you care about ICC
12:50 PM Ameisen: also, I tend to prefer Clang for Intel.
12:50 PM Ameisen: or x86 in general
12:50 PM antto: i don't, i just fell onto an article about it, while being bored
12:50 PM Ameisen: though I've found that for Windows, MSVC tends to produce better performing binaries.
12:50 PM Ameisen: though it sometimes makes stupid optimization decisions
03:24 PM MrFahrenheit: polprog, c api done, I just dumped the screen from c
03:24 PM polprog: im finishing my guide
03:24 PM polprog: shit. its big :D
03:25 PM MrFahrenheit: here's the api https://paste.debian.net/hidden/79ff9410/
03:25 PM MrFahrenheit: I think it's usable
03:27 PM MrFahrenheit: and what guide
03:59 PM polprog: youll see
03:59 PM MrFahrenheit: ping me when you have time to test this library with your rigol btw
04:01 PM antto: polprog y u getting exploited here so often?!
04:01 PM antto: o_O
04:02 PM MrFahrenheit: I'll have you know there are no exploits hidden in this code I'm gonna send to him :)
04:02 PM antto: ping me when you have time to do my homework btw
04:03 PM MrFahrenheit: and you're right antto, I'm gonna go buy a new rigol scope to test this code
04:03 PM antto: rigol :~(
04:04 PM Emil: MrFahrenheit: Donate me your previous one
04:04 PM MrFahrenheit: only have two siglents
04:04 PM MrFahrenheit: hence the rigol issue
04:04 PM antto: wait, u have more than one scope?
04:04 PM antto: >:/
04:05 PM MrFahrenheit: didn't sell my old one when I got a new one
04:05 PM antto: i suddenly feel that the natural balance in this world is.. off balance
04:05 PM Emil: antto: I have no scope!
04:05 PM antto: ;P~
04:05 PM Emil: antto: see how off balance we are!
04:05 PM antto: neither do i
04:05 PM MrFahrenheit: I didn't have one either
04:05 PM MrFahrenheit: till I bought one
04:06 PM MrFahrenheit: so it's all good
04:06 PM Tom_L: i don't use one very often
04:06 PM antto: the bible says.. "if thou has two scopes, give at least one of them to your fellow antto, and the other one, if you're in the mood, maybe.. to Emil"
04:06 PM Tom_L: use the LA more
04:07 PM Tom_L: he who dies with the most toys wins
04:11 PM Emil: Tom_L: those are words to live by
04:14 PM MrFahrenheit: this looks alright, right? a usage example of this library from c https://paste.debian.net/hidden/eee3ffaf/
04:17 PM nuxil: what this?
04:18 PM MrFahrenheit: I wrote a library that talks to scopes over usb
04:19 PM antto: u h4x0r
04:19 PM MrFahrenheit: that's an example program that uses the c wrapper for the lib
04:19 PM nuxil: ah. yea i remember you found a bug or something in a scope you had when transfering data.
04:19 PM nuxil: that was you right?
04:19 PM MrFahrenheit: yeah, turns out the scope is just quirky, but works fine with the windows visa driver
04:20 PM nuxil: windows ftw :D
04:20 PM * nuxil hides
04:20 PM MrFahrenheit: so I read the spec and replicated the bare minimum functionality that doesn't step on any quirks
04:20 PM nuxil: nice
04:20 PM MrFahrenheit: seems to work fairly reliably with the two scopes I have
04:20 PM skz81: <MrFahrenheit> do you think it's better to go with "int lib_init(opaque_t**)" or with "opaque_t* lib_init()" >> IMHO, definitely the second. Simplier syntax, clearer meaning
04:21 PM MrFahrenheit: but they're both siglent, so I have no idea if it would work with other manufacturers
04:21 PM MrFahrenheit: skz81, I went with the first one though :D
04:21 PM skz81: hum, you'll maybe need an int lib_get_error() too then
04:21 PM skz81: you the devil
04:22 PM skz81: :]
04:22 PM MrFahrenheit: I almost also had a tripple pointer in there in one function
04:22 PM MrFahrenheit: well, it's still there, but hidden behind a struct now
04:23 PM Emil: Triple pointers are suuuuper usable
04:24 PM Emil: well
04:24 PM MrFahrenheit: pointer to a list of pointers
04:24 PM Emil: or a variable that you can easily manipulate
04:25 PM Emil: But the general form is "pointers are awesome!"
04:27 PM skz81: MrFahrenheit, i just got a look to your header... Very C flavoured, then, int init(t** p) is OK. Would look a bit strange else, anyway.
04:27 PM skz81: I'm too much in C++
04:27 PM skz81: 14 !
04:42 PM MrFahrenheit: now I need to make a python wrapper around the c wrapper, and a kernel module
05:12 PM nuxil: man. 3d printing takes ages on my tarantula :p
05:12 PM nuxil: 5h and 30 min on this part https://i.gyazo.com/7f09a5683647b11b8c0b78d1b4c2685a.jpg and its still only 50% and there is like 100 more mods to print out, lols
05:13 PM nuxil: i got a few parts mounted on it tho.. https://i.gyazo.com/0c7a2d85751d9693d23ca9d92cb14a94.jpg ,
05:13 PM nuxil: and i also need to flash that atmel chip on the modbo :\
05:17 PM nohitz: nice
05:17 PM nuxil: my cam is shit tho
05:18 PM nuxil: nohitz, do you got a 3d printer ?
05:18 PM Tom_L: what cam?
05:19 PM nuxil: Tom_L, that is my cam on my old cell phone. its shit. but i refuse to buy new phone as long as this works :p
05:20 PM nuxil: htc wildfire :p
05:20 PM nuxil: i like it because its small and fits in my pocket witout getting broken :)
05:21 PM nohitz: no
05:23 PM polprog: okay
05:23 PM nuxil: nohitz, i have no other experiance with 3d printers except the tevo tarantula. so far i like what i got considering how cheep it was. its a nice diy kit imo.
05:23 PM polprog: done...
05:23 PM polprog: http://polprog.net/blog/serial/
05:25 PM Tom_L: you make a case for the serial thingie?
05:25 PM nuxil: nohitz, Also you can just order some steppers and the mobo. download the schematics/print for the parts for free and go make it youself if you have the option.. in all aliminum or something :)
05:25 PM nuxil: i did not know that then :p
05:25 PM nuxil: *before i bought it
05:26 PM nuxil: so a 3d printer can be made real cheap these days :)
05:26 PM Tom_L: polprog, why serial?
05:27 PM polprog: Tom_L: why not?
05:27 PM Tom_L: you make a case for the serial thingie?
05:27 PM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/misc_stuff/hood.jpg
05:28 PM polprog: that one
05:28 PM polprog: mine is a bit uglier
05:28 PM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/misc_stuff/rs232_3.jpg
05:28 PM Tom_L: that's one i actually had made
05:29 PM polprog: just a max 232 in dip on a piece of a stripboard with a db9 socket on cables
05:29 PM polprog: Tom_L: very elegant
05:29 PM Tom_L: pretty old now
05:33 PM polprog: yeah. but USB-UART converters are pretty popular
05:33 PM polprog: i should add a note about that
05:34 PM MrFahrenheit: antto, do you have a 3d printer?
05:36 PM MrFahrenheit: polprog, most (all?) motherboards still have a com port, it's just not connected to anything
05:36 PM polprog: MrFahrenheit: i know
05:37 PM polprog: but many people develop on laptops or even god forbid smartphones
05:37 PM polprog: .ca
05:37 PM MrFahrenheit: I bought a cable for mine when I needed to debug some gpu driver bug that was happening on suspend
05:37 PM MrFahrenheit: only way to get output was via the com port
05:37 PM Tom_L: polprog, nice article
05:39 PM polprog: spent some time making it :)
05:40 PM Tom_L: anything worth while takes time
05:52 PM MrFahrenheit: polprog, add this css to your site: body{margin:40px auto;max-width:800px;line-height:1.6;font-size:18px}h1,h2,h3{line-height:1.2}pre{font-size:75%}img{display:block;margin:0 auto}
05:53 PM polprog: nah... doesnt look good
05:54 PM MrFahrenheit: https://imgur.com/a/geBdJ
05:54 PM polprog: yeah i added it in web tools in firefox
06:34 PM Toneloc: Hi everyone, outside of arduino centric projects, do you guys still use AVR much for hobby stuff?
06:35 PM Toneloc: Or is everyone basically on ARM nowadays?
06:35 PM polprog: avr has a great standalone c library, its not just arduino
06:36 PM polprog: people seem to switch to arms but avrs are still widely used
06:36 PM Toneloc: With all the cheap usb dev modules for basically peanuts with nice ARM chips on them for less than a standalone AVR ic
06:36 PM Toneloc: polprog- that's a very good point
06:36 PM Toneloc: for hobby/one off - cost doesn't matter greatly
06:36 PM Toneloc: support/ease of development/ community size
06:37 PM Toneloc: and pre-existing code is more important
06:37 PM Toneloc: and there is tons for AVR
06:37 PM Toneloc: probably more than any other mcu
06:37 PM Toneloc: online
06:37 PM polprog: true
06:37 PM Toneloc: I haven't been into mcu's for a few years
06:37 PM Toneloc: so was curious what the state was
06:38 PM Toneloc: I was forced to use the MSP430
06:38 PM Toneloc: can't say I enjoyed it
06:38 PM Toneloc: 3.3V logic is just a pain all round
06:38 PM polprog: im sure that avra will keep being used in the hobby community because of arduino and because they are plain and simple
06:38 PM polprog: avrs*
06:38 PM Toneloc: %V or at least 5V tolerant pins are a great thing
06:39 PM polprog: compare gpio setup on stm32 and avr ;)
06:39 PM Toneloc: polprog- alot to be said for simple
06:39 PM Toneloc: nobody wants to read a book on registers
06:39 PM Toneloc: just to do one task
06:40 PM Toneloc: One thing that manufacturers could do would be simplify register setup
06:40 PM Toneloc: that would help immensly for alot of mcu work
06:40 PM polprog: in stm32 that trick with 2 bit wide fields for gpio setup is just horrid
06:41 PM polprog: this reminds me i need to look at libopencm3 construction, are those functions real inline functions or macros eventually
06:41 PM Toneloc: but yes, Avr were attractive to me because of tons of pre-existing code, great community support, good range/size of devices
06:41 PM Toneloc: cheap progrmaming hardware (built a scrap progrmamer!)
06:41 PM polprog: oh. yeah. the range is just sick :D
06:42 PM polprog: well my first stm32 programmer was a raspi, zero setup cost cos i had all the stuff in the shop already
06:43 PM Toneloc: polprog- would love to learn ARM, as I believe it really is the future but I think it is too much overhead for the simple type things that I would tend to be doing
06:44 PM polprog: arm is a whole architecture
06:44 PM polprog: umm
06:45 PM polprog: isnt msp430 arm? or is it ti's own invention?
06:45 PM Toneloc: its true, I never learned any architecture
06:45 PM Toneloc: just how to program a device
06:45 PM Toneloc: I know nothing of cores
06:45 PM Toneloc: fetching
06:45 PM Toneloc: internal workings
06:45 PM Toneloc: havent a clue
06:46 PM polprog: at this point there are so many hals that you dont need to know that to program. and vendors provide them cos if you were to poke values into memory yourslef all the time youd go bald
06:46 PM polprog: see above with bitfield shenanigans on stm32
06:46 PM Toneloc: polprog - TI make Arm procesors
06:47 PM Toneloc: but I don't believe the msp430 is an ARM processor
06:48 PM Toneloc: I believe it was von-neumann from memeory
06:48 PM polprog: wikipedia says 16 bit risc... and it looks like they made it themselves
06:49 PM polprog: since theres not a single mention of ARM on the page
06:49 PM Toneloc: ah ok
06:49 PM MrFahrenheit: no, msp has nothing to do with arm
06:49 PM polprog: looks quite simple and nice
06:49 PM MrFahrenheit: and some devices are 12 bit
06:49 PM Toneloc: polprog- I cut my teeth on it, it wasnt fun
06:49 PM polprog: lolwhat
06:50 PM polprog: 12 bit :D
06:50 PM Toneloc: hardly any code online that time
06:50 PM Toneloc: not many examples
06:50 PM Toneloc: :(
06:50 PM Toneloc: all pre-launchpad
06:50 PM Toneloc: I worked on 16-bit devices
06:51 PM MrFahrenheit: I remember looking through TI's code on the swd programming protocol and it was horrible
06:51 PM polprog: dafuq its like what? one team of engineers were 8 bitters? and another one 16 bitters? so they went on a compromise and made it 12 bit :D
06:51 PM MrFahrenheit: it's not that unusual for a uc though
06:52 PM Toneloc: saving sand?
06:53 PM polprog: hmm so they made a whole custom cpu...
06:53 PM polprog: okay
06:53 PM polprog: thats one way
06:53 PM MrFahrenheit: also, I misremembered, it was 20 bits
06:53 PM MrFahrenheit: pics have 12 and 14 bit versions
06:54 PM polprog: yeah
06:54 PM Toneloc: so do you guys program AVr's for work?
06:54 PM Toneloc: or just for hobby ?
06:55 PM MrFahrenheit: not for work, no
06:55 PM nuxil: all hobby
06:55 PM nuxil: avr rules :D
06:55 PM polprog: i did use one in a work project but then my internship ended
06:56 PM Toneloc: ah ok, I have rarely seen them in any commercial gear
06:56 PM polprog: same
06:56 PM Toneloc: but they seem to be the ticket for hobby
06:56 PM nuxil: but lately.. there has been a lot of STM blasphemy in this channel :p
06:56 PM polprog: "blasphemy"
06:56 PM Toneloc: are PICS popular at all anymore?
06:56 PM nuxil: no
06:57 PM polprog: i know one guy who is keeping to them orthodoxically :D
06:57 PM Toneloc: PIC vs AVR used to be a holy war...
06:57 PM polprog: wonder whats more popular
06:57 PM polprog: 6502 or pics
06:57 PM nuxil: Toneloc, no.
06:57 PM nuxil: it used to be Atmel Vs Microchip. not its AVR VS PIC VS ARM :p
06:58 PM nuxil: *not -> now
06:58 PM polprog: 1 2 3 4 i declare a flame war
06:58 PM polprog: m-x flamewar-mode
06:58 PM nuxil: stm32, cortex or what ever fancy pancy chip it is now
06:59 PM Toneloc: I guess for most applications you just pick the chip you are most comfortable with
06:59 PM polprog: true
06:59 PM Toneloc: unless its a very niche application
06:59 PM nuxil: not really.
06:59 PM nuxil: you pic the right chip for the job.
06:59 PM Toneloc: it costs nothing really to use an over-spec chip
06:59 PM nuxil: let it be pic avr nomatter how your personal opinion are about htem
07:00 PM nuxil: *them
07:00 PM Toneloc: if its hobby, its of no real concern
07:00 PM polprog: comfortable in a wider sense. that means you wont pick it just cos you like it
07:00 PM Toneloc: 50c more cost
07:00 PM Toneloc: is nothing
07:00 PM polprog: nonono
07:00 PM Toneloc: for a one off, or a few
07:01 PM polprog: you want to make thousands of your product
07:01 PM polprog: last thing you wanna find out when your product starts selling is that you could have saved a fortune by choosing a chip that was 30c cheaper
07:01 PM polprog: and now it costs more to unwind that
07:02 PM polprog: like
07:03 PM polprog: you wouldnt pick a z80 for a new project that could become mass produced, even if it was suitable
07:03 PM polprog: but for a one off breadboard thing to mess around, or as a school project
07:03 PM polprog: sure
07:04 PM polprog: i would not be surprised if people were taught at the beginning on simple CPUs jus because they are simple
07:04 PM polprog: like 6502
07:04 PM Toneloc: yeah, I totally get you
07:04 PM polprog: even if next year they will throw some cortex m3 micros on the students ;)
07:05 PM polprog: would*
07:05 PM Toneloc: always find it strange to believe people are shipping commercial products running on an arduino...
07:05 PM polprog: eww
07:05 PM Toneloc: it disturbs me slightly
07:05 PM Toneloc: I get why they do it
07:05 PM Toneloc: but still..
07:06 PM Toneloc: I feel there is too much 'unknown'/ abstraction
07:06 PM Toneloc: but I guess you could say that about any library/ecosystem
07:06 PM polprog: it would be against my engineering self esteem and techical culture to put arduino in a non prototype thing :/
07:08 PM Toneloc: ^this
07:09 PM polprog: today i wrote some serial handling code for linux. in C. then i rewritten it in bash. C is 3 files and bash is 5 lines.
07:09 PM polprog: :D
07:09 PM polprog: but the bash script is literally duct tape and cardboard solution :P
07:36 PM polprog: niters
07:37 PM polprog: 0230... not a good time
11:58 PM day__ is now known as day