#avr Logs

Feb 06 2018

01:34 AM polprog: morning
01:38 AM polymorph: polprog: sup dude
01:38 AM polprog: i put on some slow music and im sitting here. not much to do
01:38 AM polymorph: im testing and creating spotwelder now
01:39 AM polprog: very cool toy
01:39 AM polymorph: and i can set approximate weld power
01:39 AM polprog: get a good helmet ;)
01:39 AM polymorph: :}
01:39 AM polymorph: i could ;<
01:39 AM polymorph: 22 eur
01:40 AM polymorph: automatic
01:40 AM polymorph: spot welding doesnt ned it but pulse arc does
01:40 AM polymorph: need
01:40 AM polprog: AvE did a cheap welder helmet or uv sunglasses test once
01:40 AM polprog: let me find it
01:41 AM polymorph: i alwasy wear UV filter safety glasses kek
01:41 AM polprog: lol
01:41 AM polymorph: but the plasma flash has high power visible light too
01:43 AM polymorph: polprog: check this coolness https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgqLub266E4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvzUdh1565c
01:44 AM polprog: if you get a welding mask make sure to paint some blood streak decals, its more badass then
01:44 AM dgriffi: I told a high school teacher something about wanting an plasma welder for something and I was accused of engaging in Star Trek ish fantasizing.
01:45 AM dgriffi: the teacher didn't believe plasma torches existed.
01:45 AM polprog: wow thats cool
01:45 AM polymorph: plasma exists haha it is like the next state of matter above gas
01:45 AM polprog: so what do you just run current through the transformer for a very short time?
01:46 AM polymorph: polprog: i use a zvs ssr in series with the mot primary now
01:46 AM polprog: whats a zvs ssr? :P
01:47 AM polymorph: zero voltage switching solid state relay
01:47 AM polprog: that makes sense
01:47 AM polymorph: because high currents and 230V sine
01:47 AM polymorph: also transfarmer
01:47 AM polprog: transfarmer :P
01:48 AM polymorph: haha
01:48 AM polymorph: pulse arc in progress but i want that too ;>
01:48 AM polymorph: i can create cool explosions though
01:49 AM polprog: from arcing stuff i only have a couple of piezo arcers from lighters
01:49 AM polymorph: i need to get the explosive power down and make the arc softer so it is not like a bomb
01:50 AM polprog: it was kinda funny to touch the wire to a radiator in class and the person two rows in front of you suddenly jumps away
01:50 AM polprog: :p
01:50 AM polymorph: :)
01:51 AM polymorph: polprog: this thing vaporized some material and left a small crater in metal with a big bang
01:51 AM polprog: i remember that staples, being heated by high current (lead battery) caught fire
01:52 AM polprog: i still dont know whether that was a magnesium alloy
01:52 AM polymorph: steel wool can burn too like sparklers in air if you ignite it
01:53 AM dgriffi: polymorph: you can make a fireball launcher out of a piece of pipe, a relatively low voltage electrolytic cap, and a high voltage source
01:54 AM polymorph: polprog: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MDH92VxPEQ
01:54 AM polymorph: dgriffi: :) whatdoes it launch? steel wool?
01:54 AM dgriffi: polymorph: it launches a flaming capacitor
01:55 AM polprog: recently i founda a vid of a farmer who was doing electrolysis of molten NaCl to get metalic sodium
01:56 AM dgriffi: polymorph: drill a couple holes in an end cap. run the capacitor leads through the holes. then screw onto the pipe.
01:56 AM dgriffi: polymorph: aim, then apply tesla coil to the capacitor leads.
01:59 AM polprog: 08:55 < dgriffi> polymorph: aim, then apply tesla coil to the capacitor leads.
01:59 AM polprog: sorry
01:59 AM polymorph: dgriffi: with hv caps a watermeln can be exploded ;P
01:59 AM polprog: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6NBnPfPhWE
01:59 AM polprog: maybe ill be able to make use of those chineese wifi modules i have]
02:05 AM dgriffi: I wonder how secure/insecure those modules are.
02:06 AM polprog: well, definitely not gonna get a TEMPEST on them :P
02:06 AM Casper: good enought for your neighbour, not for anyone else?
02:07 AM polprog: and they are running some obscure rt os to handle tcpip so who knows whether they didnt miss a bug here and there
02:09 AM polymorph: 1poldumb hillybillys pouring molten aluminium in shorts and sandals, also dropping foke iphone in it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyTxxEhS4uc
02:09 AM polymorph: polprog:
02:09 AM polymorph: :)
02:10 AM polymorph: was waiting them to piss on it
02:11 AM polprog: classic youtube
02:37 AM polymorph: ha, thu first hack is very cool tool holder https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGN_rPT9olI
02:37 AM polymorph: e
04:01 AM polprog: test rig done
04:04 AM nohitzwork: has anyone used this ? https://www.mouser.com/MultiSimBlue/?cm_mmc=PressRelease-PR-_-Mouser-_-MultiSIM+BLUE/+Release+of+MultiSIM+BLUE-_-2014-07-30
04:04 AM nohitzwork: we used multisim back in school
04:05 AM nohitzwork: this seems to be some free edition
04:05 AM polprog: free? hmm
04:05 AM polprog: i should ask what they use in the tech school here
04:09 AM * dgriffi uses KiCad
04:19 AM nohitzwork: as a simulation software?
04:21 AM dgriffi: what kind of simulation?
04:22 AM nohitzwork: circuit simulation
04:23 AM polprog: you draw the schematic, print it out and do the maths by hand :^)
04:24 AM dgriffi: ngspice
05:12 AM * Haohmaru too uses KiCad
05:12 AM * polprog does so as well
05:31 AM polprog: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhcD9zJufLA
05:31 AM polprog: this ^^^ <3
05:31 AM polprog: ping Haohmaru Emil
05:34 AM polprog: im checking out openscad
05:35 AM Haohmaru: can't watch it now
05:50 AM Emil: hm?
06:20 AM dgriffi: is there any sort of hard and fast rule about how far away from the microcontroller you can place the crystal?
06:21 AM polprog: the farther from the mcu the more stray capacitance you have i think..
06:23 AM dgriffi: I'm finding that I need to move the crystal away from the mcu because I need to move all the taller things to the very bottom of the board
06:23 AM dgriffi: and because I'm using a low-profile crystal, that is a candidate for moving north
06:26 AM polprog: if its a tht crystal you can always mount it on the other side. smd as well
06:28 AM LeoNerd: Do you need an actual crystal, or will a ceramic resonator do? Murata make some really tiny ones
06:28 AM LeoNerd: I usually use the CSTCE range - 2.1mm by 1.3mm
06:28 AM LeoNerd: Or thereabouts.. I forget exact size. But anyway, tiny
06:29 AM dgriffi: actual crystal. doing audio stuff where the frequencies need to be within .5% or so
06:29 AM dgriffi: and this is all through-hole
06:29 AM LeoNerd: Hrm.. that might warrant a real crystal then
06:37 AM dgriffi: .5% tolerance compares to ppm... how?
06:37 AM dgriffi: LeoNerd: those are ceramic resonators, not crystals, right?
06:38 AM LeoNerd: Yup
06:38 AM LeoNerd: 0.5% is 5 parts in a thousand, so 5000 ppm
06:39 AM dgriffi: hmm... I think that would throw off my tones
06:39 AM nuxil: parts per million
06:39 AM LeoNerd: Yah, possibly so. They're good enough for UART work, but I wouldn't put them much past that
06:40 AM dgriffi: though I do like the concept of including the caps with the device
06:40 AM dgriffi: it would be nice if real crystals could be had like that
06:40 AM nuxil: dgriffi, your crystal will decrade like n ppm per year aswell.
06:42 AM nuxil: dgriffi, do you really think you notice a 5000 difference in 1 million ? :p
06:43 AM Emil: dgriffi: if your mcu can fit there your crystal can fit there, too
06:44 AM Emil: and crystals can be super small
06:44 AM nuxil: ^^
06:44 AM nuxil: or big bulky cans :D
06:45 AM polprog: like an ovened oscillator :P
06:45 AM nuxil: yea. but they are super accurate.
06:46 AM dgriffi: Emil: the trick is that the case I'm cramming all this into has a 3 AAA cell holder on the opposite wall from the board
06:46 AM polprog: dgriffi: how big is the crystal
06:46 AM dgriffi: if I can move all the tall things to the bottom 14mm of the board, then I'm safe
06:47 AM dgriffi: polprog: H49-U low-profile
06:47 AM Emil: dgriffi: you are designing a pcb and having it fabbed, right?
06:47 AM dgriffi: Emil: yes
06:47 AM Emil: dgriffi: lol why such a huge crystal?
06:48 AM Emil: and what frequency
06:48 AM Emil: ?
06:48 AM dgriffi: Emil: my design is restricted to easy-to-get through-hole parts
06:48 AM dgriffi: 20MHz
06:48 AM Emil: dgriffi: lol fuck off
06:48 AM dgriffi: Emil: ?
06:48 AM Emil: limiting yourself to tht parts
06:48 AM Emil: that's _idiotic_
06:49 AM polprog: i wouldnt say so
06:49 AM Emil: polprog: stfu
06:49 AM Emil: :D
06:49 AM Emil: btfo
06:49 AM Emil: well
06:49 AM Emil: you can shoot yourself in the foot
06:49 AM Emil: but if you are already having the board made for you
06:49 AM polprog: _easy to get_ meaning probably that you don order those online but go to a stationery shop
06:49 AM dgriffi: this particular board is intended to be given to people who might not be able to deal with surface-mounts
06:49 AM Emil: there's no reason to limit your component selection like that
06:49 AM polprog: dgriffi: ++
06:50 AM Emil: dgriffi: gah
06:50 AM dgriffi: oh, I am planning a much smaller version of this board that will use surface-mounts
06:50 AM Emil: okay
06:50 AM dgriffi: the project is a bluebox
06:50 AM Emil: so
06:50 AM Emil: bluebox?
06:50 AM Emil: anycase
06:50 AM Emil: you can have the crystal a couple of cm away from the mcu
06:50 AM Emil: that's okay
06:50 AM LeoNerd: Increasingly these days, all the interesting parts only come in surface-mount and not through-hole
06:50 AM dgriffi: this first edition is intended to fit into a Hammond 1591 XXM case
06:50 AM dgriffi: Emil: barely 2mm will be enough for me
06:50 AM Emil: dgriffi: lol
06:50 AM LeoNerd: So you start to find you need to use surface-mount whether you want to or not
06:51 AM Emil: dgriffi: yeah 2mm is fine :D
06:51 AM dgriffi: the second edition is intended to replace the board in a Radio Shack 43-139 tone dialer
06:51 AM Emil: I was thinking you were talking about > 4cm :D
06:51 AM dgriffi: that'll entail a board half as thick as usual and everything surface-mount
06:52 AM dgriffi: interestingly enough, the original board contains several through-hole parts, including the DTMF generator
06:53 AM dgriffi: also the first edition is intended to be sold as kits, not finished devices.
06:53 AM dgriffi: or just the board
06:53 AM polprog: kicad has integrated ngspice into eeschema
06:54 AM Emil: polprog: oh yeah I've read about that
06:54 AM Emil: pretty cool
06:57 AM Emil: dgriffi: but yeah you can absolutely move your crystal 2mm :D
06:57 AM dgriffi: Emil: are you familar with what a bluebox is?
06:57 AM dgriffi: Emil: 2cm is plenty of room for me to move the crystal around in.
06:57 AM dgriffi: Emil: I'm going to move it to the top of the mcu instead of beside it
06:57 AM Emil: dgriffi: mm!=cm
06:58 AM nuxil: :D
06:58 AM Emil: dgriffi: yeah I skimmed the wiki article
06:58 AM dgriffi: Emil: I know... I'm saying that moving it 2mm will be enough. 2cm is way more than I need
06:58 AM Emil: but still 2cm is fine
06:58 AM Emil: okay
06:58 AM Emil: :D
08:53 AM rue_: why would they put a dtmf gen on anything with a microprocessor?
08:54 AM Haohmaru: it's a secret plan
08:54 AM polprog: why would you need a dtmf gen? you just need the cereal box whishtle and then you type the number on the keypad o_o
08:54 AM rue_: but the micro can gen dtmf
08:54 AM Haohmaru: at a certain point the mcus will become self-aware and use the dtmf to coordinate a war against the humans
08:55 AM polprog: fighting the human race 9600 bits at a time
09:46 AM enh: Hello
09:49 AM nuxil: howdy
09:50 AM polprog: hi
09:52 AM enh: All right, polprog?
09:53 AM polprog: just to be sure, to use an external crystal (not crystal generator) as a clock source, i need to find the right caps for it, right? (and fuses, etc)
09:53 AM polprog: enh: its pretty good!
09:53 AM _ami_: polprog: Yup.
09:54 AM enh: Hi _ami
09:55 AM _ami_: enh: Hello!
09:55 AM polprog: _ami_: and they are coupled to gnd. right?
09:58 AM _ami_: Yup, two 22pf caps you need.
09:58 AM _ami_: http://www.circuitstoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/interfacing-avr-crystal.png
09:58 AM polprog: ill take a look at the datasheet
09:59 AM polprog: basically this is a universal test rig board/breakout and id like to be able to use both crystals or generators
10:06 AM polprog: how would you go about this? surely the capacitive load on the clock lines when clocked from a generator wont help
10:07 AM polprog: and i dont think jumpers are a-ok at MHz frequencies
10:09 AM nuxil: enh yes. check your datasheet for the crystal type youre using. if its fullswing crystal etc.
10:10 AM polprog: hell if i had an idea what crystal it was lol :P all crystals i have are from junk pcbs :P
10:10 AM nuxil: google its partnumber :p
10:10 AM polprog: it just says the freq heh.
10:11 AM polprog: i should check if i have any 7400 inverters and make a crystal->square wave board and just forget it
10:16 AM nuxil: but why not use the crystal if you know the freq?
10:17 AM polprog: because that's meant to be a universal board
10:18 AM nuxil: whatever floats your boat :p
10:18 AM polprog: no floats on my hardware avr!
10:18 AM nuxil: :D
10:21 AM nuxil: just setup the crystal. how will it not a universal board still if you do that?
10:21 AM polprog: dont have any glue logic inverters ;(
10:21 AM nuxil: its not like you will use xtal pins for anything else than as a clock input anyway
10:21 AM polprog: i guess ill just use the generators, i have more of them
10:21 AM polprog: let me see if i have any generators under 20MHz
10:22 AM nuxil: besides you can change the crystal later for a better one you order :p and just set the correct clk speed in the code
10:23 AM polprog: its not a permament arrangement
10:23 AM polprog: just a sec
10:24 AM nuxil: hell i even use a crystal on my breadboard for my atmega :p
10:24 AM polprog: found a 3.072M, 14.31818M, all the rest is too high
10:24 AM polprog: 23M? mayybe.. with a heatsink ?:-P
10:24 AM nuxil: :D
10:25 AM nuxil: which chip ?
10:25 AM nuxil: is it a 20misp chip?
10:25 AM polprog: atmega8
10:26 AM polprog: hmm i have 32k768 crystal, and a 12k one. and something that says "22.1184", probably k as well
10:27 AM nuxil: 23 with be like 7Mhz overclocking :p
10:27 AM nuxil: atmega is upto 16 right ?
10:27 AM polprog: 20 i think. but this is the L version so may be 16 or even 8
10:27 AM polprog: gotta go help sis with maths
10:28 AM nuxil: – Up to 16MIPS Throughput at 16MHz
10:28 AM nuxil: use that 14mhz one :p
10:29 AM nuxil: polprog, upgrade to atmega324 :p
10:32 AM polprog: no, its for evaluating a small problem at work
10:32 AM polprog: must me m8L
10:32 AM polprog: be*
10:32 AM nuxil: oh L version is only 8mips
10:34 AM polprog: ok, so slow crystals it is then
10:34 AM polprog: i only have that 3M gen that would fit
10:38 AM mudkip908_ is now known as mudkip908
11:07 AM polprog: fat chance. i only found 10pF caps, the closest what i have
11:08 AM polprog: i need to get more small caps
11:08 AM polprog: i forget to order small tht everytime i shop
11:10 AM polprog: jackpot
11:10 AM LeoNerd: Taped discretes like that I tend to buy ad-hoc off eBay
11:10 AM LeoNerd: At least, 0603 resistors and small (<= 100nF caps) are quite easy there
11:10 AM polprog: there are two 33pf caps on this at89 kit board i originally scavenged one of the crystals from
11:11 AM LeoNerd: For some reason 10µF MLCCs are next to impossible to get cheaply on eBay
11:11 AM cehteh: haha
11:11 AM polprog: how could i miss them
11:11 AM cehteh: esp the higher voltage ones
11:12 AM cehteh: seen the horrendous expensive space/mil grade ones .. some hundreds to thousands dollar a piece (at least some years ago, but i think the prices fallen drastically)
11:17 AM polprog: given the state of my cap supply ill go ahead an unsolder all the ceramics off this pcb
11:18 AM polprog: this kit was some obscure non-standard, serial port programmer that worked only with some obscure windows XP editoro-compilero-uploader
11:21 AM polprog: and while the iron is hot, anyone sees anything worth desoldering from this dead modem board? electrolytics are probably dead but what about the tantalums? https://puu.sh/zhYrz/7077cf7f8c.jpg
01:16 PM polprog: dragon works in isp mode, but doesnt in debugwire
01:16 PM polprog: whats this sorcery
01:19 PM polprog: and for some odd reason avrdude has started leaving dragon in some odd mode where it often needs to be reconnected to work. it just sits there with power led on and the two color one off
02:21 PM polprog: yippe!
02:21 PM polprog: i have my first avr clocked from a crystal
02:21 PM polprog: and avrdude can talk to it
02:21 PM polprog: -B 1000
02:21 PM polprog: works
02:35 PM nuxil: :)
02:36 PM polprog: F_CPU is in Hz or KHz
02:36 PM polprog: ?
02:36 PM nuxil: HZ
02:36 PM nuxil: #define F_CPU 8000000UL
02:37 PM nuxil: Dont know if UL is needed tho
02:37 PM polprog: okay its flashing
02:37 PM nuxil: or just set the fcpu in your makefile
02:38 PM polprog: #define F_CPU 32768 .... -B 500, uploads 182 bytes in 4 secs, but works!
02:38 PM nuxil: 32768 wooot
02:38 PM nuxil: lol
02:38 PM polprog: thats the only crystal i have
02:39 PM nuxil: you said you had a 14Mhz one
02:39 PM polprog: let me see
02:39 PM polprog: 14mhz is a gen
02:39 PM nuxil: and a 3. something.
02:39 PM polprog: thats a gen as well
02:39 PM polprog: i thought i have a 12khz crystal but it doesnt really work
02:39 PM polprog: i have a 25MHz crystal though ;)
02:42 PM nuxil: well. the atmage8L only supports upto 8 :p you plan on cooking it ?
02:43 PM polprog: well, none of the crystals except for the brand new 32k ones sees to work
02:44 PM nuxil: did you setup sut so you get a long boot time. time for the crystals to stabilize
02:44 PM polprog: hmm
02:44 PM polprog: no
02:44 PM polprog: let me try that
02:48 PM polprog: okay looks like i bricked it
02:48 PM polprog: i selected "resonator" instead of crystal
02:48 PM polprog: wait maybe those were resonators
02:48 PM nuxil: put your gen on then :p
02:49 PM nuxil: hu?
02:49 PM polprog: hmm
02:49 PM polprog: ok, that 12000 can made the leds lght up. so that means the program has started
02:50 PM nuxil: dude.. crystals usaly have 2 pins. resinators 3 pins. crystal oscilatos/gen 4 pins :p
02:50 PM nuxil: dont you know if youre messing with a resinator or a crystal ? :p
02:50 PM polprog: ok so its a crystal
02:51 PM polprog: but i think the capacitors are is too big. i just touched the crystal legs with my finger and the blinking started. 3 times slower as expected
02:51 PM nuxil: put some in series :p
02:54 PM polprog: someone here told me 33pf is ok and i checked now and its actually 12-22 pf
02:54 PM nuxil: it says in the DS what it should have.
02:56 PM polprog: it says 12-22
02:56 PM polprog: ill se if i have such caps
02:57 PM polprog: otherwise, well, 1khz signal from scope to the rescue
02:57 PM polprog: i guessi can connect it despite the cpas
02:57 PM polprog: caps*
02:57 PM polprog: and set the fuses back to what was working with the 32k crystal
02:58 PM nuxil: you need to get a bunch of https://gyazo.com/cb33fbec86ed4072c8010c332d6764c0 :D
02:59 PM polprog: you're goddamn right
02:59 PM polprog: interesting experience
03:05 PM polprog: trick #2 is how to get a reasonable uart out of this bastard, or go buy faster crystals, or try with generators
03:06 PM nuxil: thake that 25mhz and make a circuiet like http://www.next.gr/uploads/52/simple-ttl-crystal-oscillator.jpg
03:07 PM nuxil: then hook it up to something like http://electronics-course.com/schmitt-trigger-oscillator
03:07 PM nuxil: but with 4x cascading so you get 6.25mhz :p
03:07 PM polprog: i have a BCD ttl counter. if only i find/buy some crystal driver or schmitt triggers then im good to go
03:10 PM nuxil: or just buy proper crystal.
03:10 PM nuxil: and several of them so you have some in stock.
03:11 PM polprog: yeah
03:11 PM nuxil: https://www.ebay.com/itm/20Pcs-New-20-000MHZ-20MHZ-20M-HZ-HC-49S-Crystal-Oscillator-AL-/201578592086
03:12 PM nuxil: and you find cheaper aswell :p
03:12 PM nuxil: 20 crystals for 1 dollar inc shipping :p
03:13 PM polprog: cute, isnt it? https://puu.sh/zi7nf/d41ade3a1f.jpg
03:16 PM nuxil: heh
03:21 PM nuxil: so small :p
03:22 PM nuxil: mine is bigger :p
03:23 PM nuxil: https://gyazo.com/bfe1f16bdb92a553b6301cc7c6c94270 big bulky one :)
03:28 PM nuxil: polprog, btw. you have a PI. make a resque osc with it
03:28 PM nuxil: :p
03:44 PM polprog: nuxil: i noticed it clock when i touch thr xtal pins even with no crystal
03:44 PM polprog: heh
03:45 PM nuxil: tap the bits in :p
03:45 PM polprog: just unsoldered a ~14k and a ~40k crystal from the dead modem i posted earlier today
03:46 PM polprog: junk boards are a good source of unusual sruff
03:46 PM polprog: stuff*
03:47 PM nuxil: yeaa
03:47 PM polprog: it also had some tantalum caps but for some reason they short out at >4.2 V . rated 16. into the trash they go
03:47 PM polprog: brb
03:49 PM nuxil: see if you find some ceramic resonators. they can come with 2 pins aswell.
04:24 PM McDonaldsWiFi: I ended up building searle's avr video for my z80
04:24 PM McDonaldsWiFi: but I'm missing a flip flop chip :(((((
04:24 PM McDonaldsWiFi: gotta buil done lol
05:02 PM polprog: i think theres a glue logic flip flop on that junk board :^)
05:03 PM polprog: 377 flip flop
05:03 PM polprog: gotta resolder the caps to 10pF. apparently at89 needed bigger caps
05:04 PM polprog: 10pf is still put of range but closer
05:04 PM polprog: out*
07:16 PM nuxil: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8txvmXUIJQ&t=8m40s (8:40) 0.O
07:16 PM rue_: McDonaldsWiFi, need that schematic yet?
07:37 PM nabil: I want to implement program update over RF, max packet size is 255 bytes
07:37 PM nabil: any good documentation on that? Ideas maybe ?
07:38 PM nabil: I think that should be handled by a bootloader somehow, but examples/good docs would help I think
07:56 PM Tom_itx is now known as Tom_L
08:12 PM Casper: bidirectional?
08:13 PM nuxil: nabil, the only one in here i know of that has experiance with that stuff is Jartza.
08:13 PM Casper: if so, look up at the flash page size of your avr
08:13 PM Casper: the avr have a 1 page buffer for flash write, and yes it is ideally via the bootloader
08:14 PM nuxil: i was thinking of how tagsu updates the firmware, but it uses modem though the jackplug :p
08:22 PM Casper: it shouln't be too hard really
08:22 PM Casper: look up for a serial bootloader, and modify it
08:35 PM McDonaldsWiFi: rue_: forgive me
08:35 PM McDonaldsWiFi: rue_: ... it was for my avr output right?
08:36 PM McDonaldsWiFi: I think I got that working with my buffers! those things are seriously awesome, just gotta get the timing right so that when it reads the chip will write right after
08:36 PM rue_: last thing I designed was a 6 input, 6 ouput buffer
08:36 PM rue_: which you could do isp over
08:37 PM rue_: McDonaldsWiFi, how are you doing chip select decoding on the z80 side?
08:37 PM * rue_ is 38% asleep
08:37 PM McDonaldsWiFi: right now I'm using AND gates, but I want to find a better solution
08:37 PM rue_: 74ls138
08:37 PM McDonaldsWiFi: with one 4 AND gates i can't have very many I/Os
08:38 PM McDonaldsWiFi: with 4*
08:38 PM McDonaldsWiFi: I'd love to see the schematic if you've already made it!
08:38 PM McDonaldsWiFi: wow
08:38 PM rue_: OR go big and use a 74ls154
08:39 PM rue_: you can also use two 138
08:39 PM McDonaldsWiFi: going big is a good idea
08:39 PM rue_: the 138 can also be used to incoperate the /IO or /MEM
08:39 PM McDonaldsWiFi: if I want to get my theoretical 256 I/O ports I'm gonna need some heavy handed decoding
08:40 PM rue_: so that the output of one of the 138's could be specifically io chip selectes
08:40 PM McDonaldsWiFi: right!
08:40 PM rue_: McDonaldsWiFi, 16 bit addressing, 65535 io ports
08:40 PM McDonaldsWiFi: say what, lemme read this sheet
08:40 PM rue_: 256 is just when your using short handed addressing with the A register
08:40 PM McDonaldsWiFi: oh right right
08:41 PM rue_: you can use HL for an address to 16 bit IO space
08:41 PM McDonaldsWiFi: but memory deocidng is super easy
08:41 PM McDonaldsWiFi: since its basically built in to the memory
08:41 PM McDonaldsWiFi: until you get into bank switching..
08:41 PM rue_: mem decoding is easy if you set up a 256K rom and a 256K ram ship
08:41 PM McDonaldsWiFi: ^
08:41 PM McDonaldsWiFi: I'm setting at 32k ROM 32k RAm xD
08:41 PM rue_: k
08:41 PM McDonaldsWiFi: for now~
08:42 PM McDonaldsWiFi: okay
08:42 PM McDonaldsWiFi: this project has really grown.. a lot
08:42 PM McDonaldsWiFi: its sitting on like 8 breadboards now
08:42 PM rue_: I have a drawr of 386 cache chips, so I used two 256k in th last one I made
08:42 PM McDonaldsWiFi: I thik I'm gonna look into making some pCBs for it and make it modular
08:42 PM rue_: remember to have power decoupling caps
08:42 PM McDonaldsWiFi: 74ls386?
08:43 PM rue_: or the power line noise will make strange things happen
08:43 PM rue_: no 80386
08:43 PM McDonaldsWiFi: tbh I don't know the real math behind it so I just load it up with some heavy elec caps
08:43 PM rue_: i80386 used SRAM for the cache chips
08:43 PM McDonaldsWiFi: and a few ceramics for noise
08:43 PM rue_: ditto i80486
08:43 PM McDonaldsWiFi: OH
08:43 PM McDonaldsWiFi: especially since its power source is still USB
08:43 PM rue_: some of them use 512K cache chips
08:44 PM McDonaldsWiFi: Can you think of some kind "jobs" I can give my z80 to make it do something "useful"?
08:44 PM McDonaldsWiFi: I'm thinking integrating it into my house somehow.. some type of crappy monitoring haha
08:47 PM rue_: network enabled supper machine
08:48 PM McDonaldsWiFi: now you struck my second idea!
08:48 PM McDonaldsWiFi: kind of like the MAGIC-1
08:48 PM McDonaldsWiFi: get it online somehow and let people do bad things to it lol
08:48 PM rue_: pff, its not hackable till the 3rd layer of bloatware, and its not big enough for that
08:49 PM McDonaldsWiFi: LOL
08:49 PM McDonaldsWiFi: Wizchip 5100 might be my route for that
08:49 PM rue_: geez used to know the fn of 120 logic chips, and I had to check that 74ls154
08:49 PM rue_: McDonaldsWiFi, there are a number of wifi and wired network chips for arduino
08:50 PM rue_: its all serial access, which is only a bit of a pain at first
08:50 PM McDonaldsWiFi: Yeah I thought about just taking a $10 arduino shield and repurposing it
08:50 PM McDonaldsWiFi: yeha serial data is a pain... :/
08:50 PM rue_: it can be bit banged
08:50 PM rue_: pretty good by the z80
08:50 PM McDonaldsWiFi: man you're going to fork this convo like 1000 times
08:50 PM McDonaldsWiFi: xD
08:50 PM McDonaldsWiFi: How can I bit bang with a parallel internface?
08:51 PM McDonaldsWiFi: just use the first pin I guess?
08:53 PM rue_: basically yup
08:53 PM McDonaldsWiFi: loading serial data into a parallel port AND keeping timing sounds like a pain
08:53 PM McDonaldsWiFi: I tried to do it wireless with 2 arduinos and it was a big deal
08:53 PM rue_: use the chip select as the clock line
08:53 PM rue_: data as data
08:54 PM rue_: and you have to buffer the inputs, not sure if parallal timing would work right, have to draw it out
08:54 PM McDonaldsWiFi: yeah I'll cross that bridge when I get there hahah
08:55 PM rue_: seems your making fine progress
08:55 PM rue_: McDonaldsWiFi, what country are you in?
08:56 PM rue_: australia, canada, germany, USA, california, china, russia, alaska...
08:58 PM rue_: montreal....
08:59 PM rue_: if your having fun finding chips maybe I should send ya a few
08:59 PM rue_: canada shipping sucks tho
09:00 PM rue_: it takes up to 7 months for canada post to process my packages
09:00 PM rue_: from china
09:00 PM rue_: ok I'm gonna work on supper
09:01 PM rue_: why did I buy 1000 150ohm resistors?
09:03 PM McDonaldsWiFi: USA!
09:03 PM McDonaldsWiFi: LOL
09:04 PM McDonaldsWiFi: I've been slowly collecting some chips and components
09:04 PM McDonaldsWiFi: buying lots whole sale
09:04 PM McDonaldsWiFi: don't tell the wife
09:04 PM rue_: k
09:04 PM rue_: they can be hard to find these days, less from china, which takes a while
09:05 PM rue_: how are you programming the z80 now?
09:08 PM McDonaldsWiFi: its quite the thing
09:09 PM McDonaldsWiFi: you opened the can, not me
09:09 PM McDonaldsWiFi: its currently ROMless
09:09 PM McDonaldsWiFi: since my code is hardly 100 bytes or less now
09:10 PM rue_: heh, you hand entering it?
09:10 PM McDonaldsWiFi: I have 2 arduino nanos attached. One is wired to the RAM, and the other is wired to all the CS pins and some other pins
09:10 PM McDonaldsWiFi: so I can use the 2nd nano to switch from "run" to "program" mode
09:10 PM McDonaldsWiFi: and the first nano will flash the RAM with my code
09:10 PM rue_: using /BUSREQ ?
09:11 PM McDonaldsWiFi: its worse than that xD
09:11 PM McDonaldsWiFi: there were about 8 leads that needed to be switched from the chips to switch it from program mode to run mode
09:11 PM McDonaldsWiFi: to keep the signals isolated so it doens't disturb it while it runs
09:11 PM McDonaldsWiFi: I need to relaly make a schematic lol
09:11 PM McDonaldsWiFi: i got tired of having to move all the wires each time
09:12 PM McDonaldsWiFi: so I just added transistors instead and used an arduino to toggle them
09:12 PM McDonaldsWiFi: i currently use Ben Eaters EEPROM programmer
09:12 PM rue_: if you use /BUSREQ and a 74HC595 to do the address lines, you can have one arduino flash something into its ram
09:12 PM McDonaldsWiFi: but I need to find one that lets me use a BIN over serial instead of saving my ROM to the arduino EEPROM each time
09:12 PM rue_: erm, not 595
09:12 PM rue_: needs a buffer
09:13 PM rue_: ouch
09:13 PM rue_: hmm
09:13 PM * rue_ thinks
09:13 PM rue_: I have an idea
09:13 PM McDonaldsWiFi: well a few of the lines didn't need to be switched from RAM to NANO
09:13 PM rue_: its a stretch
09:13 PM McDonaldsWiFi: it needed to be disconnected altogether
09:13 PM McDonaldsWiFi: not high OR low
09:13 PM McDonaldsWiFi: like the CS for the RAM
09:13 PM rue_: I have an ISA z80 motherboard I made
09:13 PM McDonaldsWiFi: needs to be active for progrmaming, but the z80 can handle it after
09:14 PM McDonaldsWiFi: ooh do you have pictures or a schematic?
09:14 PM rue_: yea
09:14 PM rue_: damn I wish I were awake
09:14 PM rue_: McDonaldsWiFi, whats easier for you to get an atmega32 or a arduino 2560
09:16 PM McDonaldsWiFi: 32 for sure
09:16 PM McDonaldsWiFi: digikey is king
09:16 PM rue_: so, I can make you (and me) an arduino 'memory loader' for the z80
09:16 PM rue_: ouch$, but ok
09:16 PM rue_: the m32 has enough io lines
09:16 PM rue_: so
09:16 PM McDonaldsWiFi: isn't a 32 smaller than a 328p?
09:16 PM rue_: usb->ttl serial adapter -> m32 -> z80 bus
09:16 PM rue_: no, more io
09:17 PM rue_: enough for data and address lines
09:17 PM McDonaldsWiFi: ahhh is that the chip used in the Arduino Mega?
09:17 PM rue_: and serial
09:17 PM rue_: no
09:17 PM rue_: the m32 isn't used in arduinos, that why I asked
09:17 PM McDonaldsWiFi: ahhh
09:17 PM rue_: if I design it, can you build it?
09:17 PM rue_: :)
09:17 PM McDonaldsWiFi: I'm sure I could, the major factor is time
09:18 PM rue_: short or long
09:18 PM McDonaldsWiFi: xD i could do it during the weekend
09:18 PM rue_: are you gonna die next week?
09:18 PM McDonaldsWiFi: LOL
09:18 PM rue_: ok
09:18 PM McDonaldsWiFi: nah, I just reenrolled in school
09:18 PM rue_: then were good, I'm busy too
09:18 PM McDonaldsWiFi: at the age of 27 lol
09:18 PM McDonaldsWiFi: hmmm
09:18 PM McDonaldsWiFi: my only issue there is I need an ISP
09:18 PM rue_: I'm about 260, whatever
09:18 PM McDonaldsWiFi: I use my arudino to program C/ASM on my arduinos
09:18 PM McDonaldsWiFi: wait
09:18 PM rue_: arduino
09:18 PM McDonaldsWiFi: I can use the arduino as an ISP
09:18 PM McDonaldsWiFi: nvm
09:18 PM McDonaldsWiFi: :D
09:19 PM rue_: exactly
09:19 PM rue_: k
09:19 PM McDonaldsWiFi: Do you design PCBs?
09:19 PM rue_: I'll put it in my thinking queue and make a project folder of into for the ISA z80
09:19 PM McDonaldsWiFi: at least for personal use?
09:19 PM McDonaldsWiFi: no rush on this one ^^
09:19 PM rue_: no, just the other stuff
09:19 PM * rue_ means software
09:20 PM McDonaldsWiFi: reason I ask is I'm thiking about designing some PCBs for this build
09:20 PM rue_: http://eds.dyndns.org/~ircjunk/projects/ISAZ80/
09:20 PM rue_: will be the folder when I make it
09:20 PM rue_: unless you have 4 layers, doing pcb's for parallel machines is evil
09:21 PM McDonaldsWiFi: never did it before so I might just use somehting like Easyeda instead of Eagle and then sending it
09:21 PM McDonaldsWiFi: Lol! breadboard forever??
09:21 PM Xark: Hmm, have you seen this project -> https://hackaday.io/project/19000-a-4-4ics-z80-homemade-computer-on-breadboard (which despite the name has some PCBs too)
09:21 PM rue_: you WANT 2 power planes, and a Xand Y trace plane
09:21 PM McDonaldsWiFi: oh thats neat
09:21 PM McDonaldsWiFi: uhh wut
09:21 PM McDonaldsWiFi: oKay you guys have sparked me to really want to document my build schematic lol
09:22 PM Xark: Z-80 + AtMega32 (for I/O and control) + SRAM chip
09:22 PM rue_: I juse want a m32 based z80 loader
09:22 PM McDonaldsWiFi: isn't the atmega a little slow for that job though? :/
09:22 PM rue_: idea hadn't occured to me
09:22 PM McDonaldsWiFi: 10mhz z80 could outpace that I bet
09:22 PM Xark: McDonaldsWiFi: That is for 4Mhz Z-80.
09:22 PM McDonaldsWiFi: Ahhh didn't see that
09:22 PM McDonaldsWiFi: sorry i take that back ^^
09:23 PM Xark: I think it just uses internal osc too...
09:25 PM dgriffi: McDonaldsWiFi: try KiCad
09:25 PM McDonaldsWiFi: rue_: Gonna bookmark that link
09:25 PM McDonaldsWiFi: dgriffi: do you have a PCB company you recommend?
09:26 PM dgriffi: McDonaldsWiFi: I use Osh Park for prototypes.
09:26 PM McDonaldsWiFi: dgriffi: thank you!
09:27 PM dgriffi: McDonaldsWiFi: how many copies are you planning?
09:27 PM McDonaldsWiFi: just a few of each to make sure i get working copies
09:27 PM McDonaldsWiFi: like 5 different boards maybe
09:28 PM dgriffi: I'm planning to use Seeed Studios for production quantities. I used PCB-Pro for the P112 project.
09:28 PM dgriffi: aka Sunstone Circuits
09:28 PM McDonaldsWiFi: https://661.org/p112/ ?
09:31 PM dgriffi: yep
09:31 PM McDonaldsWiFi: oh that's awesome
09:31 PM McDonaldsWiFi: Didn't know there were so many z80 people out there ^^
09:31 PM McDonaldsWiFi: seems niche
09:31 PM dgriffi: Ooo... Sunstone's prices have improved considerably
09:31 PM McDonaldsWiFi: that pcb looks nuts though
09:31 PM dgriffi: dgriffi: most of my customers are classic computer wonks
09:32 PM dgriffi: McDonaldsWiFi: I have a new project almost ready to go to prototype that implements a bluebox
09:32 PM dgriffi: McDonaldsWiFi: all through-hole parts, using an ATtiny85
09:33 PM McDonaldsWiFi: oh awesome, I just order a handful of ATtinys to tinker with
09:33 PM McDonaldsWiFi: what's the build going to do?
09:33 PM McDonaldsWiFi: Also, do you use C for your tinys or do you dip to ASM since you don't have much to work with?
09:33 PM dgriffi: I still have some issues with parts placement vis a vis not hitting the battery holder.
09:34 PM dgriffi: McDonaldsWiFi: I've allowed my ASM skills to decay, so I tend to prefer C.
09:34 PM McDonaldsWiFi: I'm sure the compiler is really good at optimizing anyways
09:35 PM dgriffi: that being said, I managed to cram a bluebox, silverbox, greenbox, redbox, and 2600 pulser into an ATtiny85 with lots of room to spare
09:35 PM dgriffi: there's also a memory mode with 40 digits per memory slot, of which there are 12.
09:37 PM dgriffi: it all fits in just under 5 kilobytes
09:37 PM McDonaldsWiFi: hmm I'm not familiar with the boxes
09:37 PM McDonaldsWiFi: originally I thought you literally put it in a blue box
09:37 PM McDonaldsWiFi: LOL
09:37 PM dgriffi: McDonaldsWiFi: are you familiar with the concept of phone phreaking?
09:37 PM dgriffi: McDonaldsWiFi: I do have a literal blue box in which I will mount the prototype board.
09:37 PM McDonaldsWiFi: that when you could make a payphone call long distance at stuff for free?
09:38 PM McDonaldsWiFi: Ahh so a bluebox is the blue box tone generator?
09:38 PM McDonaldsWiFi: blue telephone box
09:38 PM dgriffi: right. but not since the early 1990s, which is when most of the phone switching equipment were finally changed to make that impossible
09:39 PM McDonaldsWiFi: what is blue box in the sense of avr? still a tone gen?
09:39 PM McDonaldsWiFi: google didn't bring up anything for green or silver or red (besides movies :P )
09:40 PM dgriffi: a silver box is a portable device that emits DTMF tones, including the seldom-seen fourth column (A, B, C, and D)
09:40 PM dgriffi: however, as this current edition has only 13 buttons, the lettered buttons are not supported. I'm working on a 16-button version after this one.
09:41 PM dgriffi: a green box emits tones for manipulating payphones, but they only work if the user is called from a payphone.
09:41 PM dgriffi: again, this one doesn't work anymore
09:41 PM McDonaldsWiFi: that's interesting
09:41 PM McDonaldsWiFi: I love hearing about older tech like that
09:41 PM McDonaldsWiFi: I'm becoming a sucker for vintage tech
09:41 PM dgriffi: all of this is intended for historical exploration with Asterisk phone switches set up specifically to allow for this sort of thing.
09:42 PM dgriffi: and a red box emits tones that a real payphone sends down the line to indicate which coins were dropped into it.
09:42 PM dgriffi: "real payphone" as opposed to a COCOT (Customer Owned Coin Operated Telephone)
09:43 PM dgriffi: A COCOT looks exactly like a normal payphone from the outside, but internally is just a standard landline phone with circuitry to accept coins and usually something to allow the owner to get into the phone remotely.
09:43 PM dgriffi: consequentially, COCOTS typically don't allow for incoming calls like standard payphones do.
09:44 PM dgriffi: the pulser function replicates how phone phreaking was done with just a whistle that emits a 2600Hz tone
09:45 PM dgriffi: another variant on this hardware I'm working on is a board replacement for a Radio Shack tone dialer
09:45 PM McDonaldsWiFi: man this is awesome
09:45 PM McDonaldsWiFi: do you have it documented anywhere yet?
09:45 PM dgriffi: yes
09:46 PM dgriffi: The firmware is here: https://github.com/DavidGriffith/bluebox-avr
09:47 PM dgriffi: The KiCad schematics and board files are here: https://github.com/DavidGriffith/bluebox-esquire
09:47 PM dgriffi: The board is still in a state of flux, so please don't try to have one built yet.
09:47 PM dgriffi: I'll be selling them in a few weeks
09:52 PM rue_: wait wairtwait
09:52 PM rue_: wait
09:52 PM rue_: YOUR making a m32 based z80 memory loader too?
11:45 PM day__ is now known as day