#avr Logs

Jul 10 2017

12:20 AM day_ is now known as daey
04:00 AM Lambda_Aurigae: Emil, why don't I get those? I'm jealous!
05:44 AM julius: hi
05:45 AM noHitW_work: hi
05:46 AM julius: Lambda_Aurigae: i did put a plant which is sitting in a white vulcan stone crap instead of earth on to my laser printer :) and of course...it did fell and feed some of its contents into the paper output :( now the printer makes new noises while printing....
05:46 AM julius: it was a used one as a present, so its not that terrible....lets see how long he can work with that :)
06:09 AM Emil: Lambda_Aurigae: he
06:09 AM Emil: h
07:43 AM pepijndevos: Can I somehow do ADC reads at a fix rate lower than 10KHz?
07:49 AM cehteh: of course
07:49 AM cehteh: you can use a timer to trigger the adc
07:50 AM cehteh: works automatically you only have to get the result in the ADC finished interrupt
08:20 AM pepijndevos: Ok, will try.
08:20 AM pepijndevos: So you use a timer interrup to start the measurement, but you still use the ADC interrupt to read it.
08:21 AM cehteh: no
08:22 AM cehteh: timers can be configured to trigger the ADC no timer interrupt necessary
08:22 AM cehteh: only adc interrupt to read the result
09:29 AM renn0xtk9: folks on that schematic: https://www.obdev.at/Images/vusb/circuit-zoomed.gif aren't there two caps in parralel between VCC and GND? in which case the 100n one will be negligible compared to the 4u7 no ?
09:33 AM Emil: renn0xtk9: it still matters
09:33 AM Emil: because of transients
09:34 AM Emil: You always want a bypass close to the uc
09:34 AM Emil: even if you have a bigger one available elsewhere
09:34 AM Emil: If your bigger one is electrolytic it has a slower response time
09:34 AM Emil: compared to cer
09:47 AM renn0xtk9: I see
09:48 AM Lambda_Aurigae: julius, take it apart and clean it.
09:50 AM twnqx: also, they filter different frequencies.
09:51 AM Emil: twnqx: eeeeh
09:51 AM twnqx: yes they do. of noise in the supply lines.
09:51 AM Emil: twnqx: in practice, somewhat, theoreticall no difference
09:51 AM twnqx: it depends what else is on your supply.
09:52 AM Emil: Both act as a low pass filter
09:52 AM Emil: With a cutoff that depends on the capacitance
10:40 AM bss36504: Emil: In theory it does too, provided your model is precise enough :p
10:41 AM Emil: Hue
10:41 AM Emil: that's true
10:41 AM bss36504: If you model all parasitic RCL in all wires/tracks, then it would become apparent that "in theory" it works like in practice
10:41 AM Emil: adding all the L and R there
10:41 AM Emil: yeah
10:41 AM bss36504: yup
10:41 AM bss36504: One of my favorite classes in school spent some time doing power plane modeling and transmission line stuff. Very cool to me
10:41 AM Emil: And not only that
10:42 AM Emil: you can have non linear effects too
10:42 AM Emil: with notches on just certain frequencies
10:42 AM Emil: and shit
10:42 AM bss36504: Yeah
10:42 AM bss36504: neat stuff
10:42 AM bss36504: I love those Bode plots of transmission lines where at certain frequencies they resonate and you somehow get gain out of them.
10:42 AM bss36504: "somehow"
10:42 AM Emil: It's magic
10:43 AM Emil: Witchcraft when you go into rf
10:43 AM bss36504: oh yeah, basically
10:45 AM bss36504: I still haven't had anyone explain to me in a satisfactory manner why antennas radiate RF without just saying "look at Maxwell's equations" or something similar. Nearest I can kind of wrap my head around is that you have a wire [antenna] that is capacitively coupled back to the source and it's acting as both a magnetically coupled device (inductive
10:45 AM bss36504: and electrically (capacitive) to the receiver.
10:46 AM bss36504: The biggest issue I had is that stimulating a wire just out in space should not have any current flowing through it, at least under basic electronics
10:46 AM bss36504: so an antenna with only one connection should transfer no energy under that axiom
10:47 AM Emil: Everything radiates
10:47 AM bss36504: As for the actual conditions that cause EM coupling to happen, I guess that's up to the math haha
10:47 AM Emil: If there's a changing electri signal going through it it radiates
10:47 AM bss36504: Emil: Yeah, sure I get that, but that's assuming it has a "complete circuit"
10:47 AM Emil: No
10:47 AM Emil: We are literally measuring the electric field
10:47 AM Emil: no need for complete circuit
10:47 AM Emil: per se
10:48 AM bss36504: Right, but true RF transmission is both electrically and magnetically coupled, no?
10:48 AM Emil: like 99,999999... electric
10:48 AM Emil: magnetic when short range and low freq
10:48 AM Emil: electric after that
10:48 AM bss36504: I guess I can see that if we are only concerned with electrically coupling the source to the receiver, then it's sort of capacitor-like, each antenna is a "plate", earth is the common ground
10:49 AM bss36504: Ok, guess I hadn't picked up on that distinction.
10:49 AM Emil: And antennas radiate because of speed of light
10:50 AM Emil: Can't have instantaneous change in anything
10:50 AM Emil: So that's where the energy goes to
10:50 AM Emil: (heat)
10:54 AM bss36504: Still dark magic lol
10:54 AM bss36504: I've sort of reached a point where I understand enough, and don't want to fall into the black hole trying to learn more haha
10:55 AM Emil: hehe
10:55 AM Emil: :D
11:11 AM * LeoNerd getting annoyed at hand-soldering QFP32s now
11:12 AM LeoNerd: I don't know... either my technique is wrong or this solder is rubish
11:18 AM Tom_itx: LeoNerd, do you use a flux pen?
11:19 AM Tom_itx: it helps quite a bit
11:19 AM LeoNerd: Does that help avoid bridges? Bridges are verymuch my problem currently
11:20 AM Tom_itx: well i don't worry about bridges much
11:20 AM LeoNerd: Usually between a signal and a ground pin next to it, because the ground pin is on copper pour and has lots of heatsink effect
11:20 AM Tom_itx: just go back with some soldewick on the few that bridge
11:20 AM LeoNerd: I've never had that work
11:20 AM Tom_itx: i touch the pad from the end and move the iron up to the lead
11:20 AM LeoNerd: That smushes the solder behind the pin and makes it worse
11:20 AM Tom_itx: let the flux flow the solder under the lead
11:21 AM LeoNerd: Sometimes I can use solderwick to pull solder off a bare board, but I've never had it work for a bridged pair of pins
11:21 AM Tom_itx: maybe you're using too much solder
11:21 AM bss36504: Some good rework flux and braid fixes most of my bridges
11:21 AM Tom_itx: ^^
11:21 AM Tom_itx: that's what i do
11:21 AM bss36504: Also, get yourself a soldering braid "dispenser" or "gun"
11:21 AM bss36504: Makes a world of difference
11:21 AM bss36504: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tz2zAjkCnIk.
11:22 AM bss36504: That thing is a lifesaver. No more burnt fingers, plus the integrated blade makes it much easier to chop old wick off when you have too much
11:22 AM Tom_itx: i did around 200 before i started using my toaster oven. i got pretty good at it
11:22 AM LeoNerd: Maybe I need to see what solder wick is supposed to work like
11:23 AM LeoNerd: for me it's horrible
11:23 AM LeoNerd: Press it into the board for maybe 20 seconds using the iron - nothing happens
11:23 AM Tom_itx: i usually add a little flux to it too
11:23 AM LeoNerd: Maybe after 30 seconds it starts to squish the solder flat
11:23 AM Tom_itx: that's too long
11:23 AM Tom_itx: you need a hotter iron maybe
11:23 AM LeoNerd: It doesn't *suck* the solder up.. it just squashes it like you're pressing into bluetack with a thumb
11:23 AM LeoNerd: The solder now goes all flat and dull-looking.. looks almost like paste
11:23 AM Tom_itx: sound's like the iron can't keep up
11:23 AM LeoNerd: stops being shiny
11:23 AM bss36504: Yeah, most solder wick has some flux on it I think, but I use nokorode flux. Stuff is a PITA to clean though.
11:23 AM LeoNerd: iron is currently set at 380
11:24 AM Epsilon_Aurigae: just because it gets hot enough doesn't mean it has enough thermal mass to heat up solder wick properly.
11:24 AM bss36504: had to convert that to freedom units...that is pretty dang hot.
11:25 AM LeoNerd: Right. 3rd attempt, and if this doesn't work I may discard the chpi and try a new one- getting to the point where I worry about the chip being heatdamaged
11:25 AM bss36504: I think you can get too hot and actually boil any flux off before it's useful, though that may just be heresay
11:26 AM LeoNerd: So.. remind me what flux is for... it's for cleaning contaminants off the pads, so the solder will stick easier..? Anything else?
11:26 AM LeoNerd: I don't feel like that is my problem here
11:27 AM bss36504: It also aides in heat conduction, AFAIK
11:27 AM Tom_itx: yeah
11:27 AM bss36504: But maybe that is accomplished by the cleaning action
11:27 AM Tom_itx: i was gonna say that but the phone rang
11:28 AM Tom_itx: i think your iron just can't keep up
11:28 AM bss36504: So with good paste flux (which is what i use cause it sticks on stuff), you get better conduction between iron, pad, and optionally wick, plus it cleans the surfaces a bit as youre doing it
11:28 AM bss36504: Yeah that's possible too. What kind of iron? How many W?
11:28 AM LeoNerd: "Precision Gold" A55KJ... I think it's a Maplin-rebadge of something
11:30 AM bss36504: We have those at my college. Hated em. My Weller WESD51 has served me better
11:30 AM bss36504: At least, we have a clone of that.
11:31 AM LeoNerd: Ohballs... having got the chip on and successfully not bridged any of the pins I was having trouble with earlier, I smudged it and bridged a totally unrelated pair
11:31 AM LeoNerd: ... hrm.. I wonder if I need those.. D5+D6
11:32 AM bss36504: Is this a QFP?
11:32 AM LeoNerd: Yeah, the one with the legs
11:32 AM LeoNerd: I'm beginning to feel a leadless one would be easier
11:32 AM bss36504: Sometimes I use the next size up from the super tiny soldering tip, that way I can do the flux-drag technique
11:33 AM bss36504: QFNs suck to hand solder. It's possible, but really only with flux
11:33 AM bss36504: and I find slightly over-long pads helps too
11:33 AM HighInBC: paste and hot air helps a lot for those packages meant for robot hands
11:33 AM bss36504: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAUHV5myhx4
11:34 AM bss36504: The aforementioned drag technique
11:34 AM HighInBC: long pads do help indeed
11:34 AM LeoNerd: Oh.. that technique only works if your fab has put solder mask between the pads
11:34 AM LeoNerd: Mine didn't
11:34 AM LeoNerd: because.. I don't know. :(
11:34 AM HighInBC: solder mask, it does a PCB good
11:34 AM LeoNerd: Yeah.. the PCB generally has mask but not between these pads, because it was "too small"
11:34 AM bss36504: LeoNerd: Even without solder mask, with appropriate flux, the solder should not bridge
11:35 AM bss36504: Why is there copper between them then?
11:35 AM LeoNerd: There isn't copper between the pads
11:35 AM bss36504: Oh then you'll have no problem
11:35 AM LeoNerd: The solder is viscous enough that it'll hang and make a bridge for itself
11:35 AM LeoNerd: It sits in the air between the legs
11:35 AM LeoNerd: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7tck6K7NL6ARGxTTUs5RF9jWE0
11:35 AM LeoNerd: ^-- a photo
11:35 AM bss36504: Not with enough flux. Use less solder and more flux
11:35 AM HighInBC: solder braid and more flux will fix almost any mistake
11:36 AM bss36504: Yeah, I feel ya man, but seriously. Less solder overall, and more flux
11:36 AM HighInBC: almost
11:36 AM LeoNerd: The legs along the righthand side I was having lots of trouble with earlier, as you can see by all the board heat-damage
11:36 AM bss36504: Like, goop on a bunch of flux, apply solder to a CLEAN tip (small amount, less than you'd expect) then drag it across. Any bridges can be easily repaired with braid
11:36 AM LeoNerd: Those are now fine, but see the leftmost-two pads on the bottom row
11:36 AM LeoNerd: (D5+D6 for interest)
11:37 AM LeoNerd: bss36504: "bridges can be repaired by braid" <-- I dispute that. It's just making things worse
11:37 AM LeoNerd: Either my braid is terrible or I'm using it wrong
11:38 AM LeoNerd: I don't have a lot to compare to though - how do I tell if it could be better?
11:38 AM Tom_itx: add some flux to it
11:38 AM LeoNerd: "If you can do {X} then it's good" - a suggestions anyone?
11:38 AM LeoNerd: Hrm.. the only flux I have is a pen for painting on the pads
11:38 AM LeoNerd: Idon't have any actually-liquid stuff
11:38 AM Tom_itx: that's what i use
11:38 AM Tom_itx: a pen
11:39 AM LeoNerd: Hmm.. so scribble pen on a bit of the braid then? Do I leave it all on the reel or cut a small piece off?
11:39 AM Tom_itx: i leave it on the reel and cut it off as it gets full of solder
11:39 AM LeoNerd: Heh.. mine never gets "full" of solder
11:39 AM HighInBC: LeoNerd: some braid is awful, it should have lots of flux already in it, but some don't. Add a generous amount of flux to the braid before using it
11:39 AM LeoNerd: As I said it just smushes the solder around like it was plasticine/bluetak
11:39 AM bss36504: What brand braid?
11:39 AM HighInBC: few people ever look at their board and lament "I wish I used less flux"
11:39 AM LeoNerd: But I'll see if adding flux to the braid will help
11:39 AM bss36504: Maybe your flux is expired?
11:40 AM bss36504: I use the goopy paste flux, personally, I find it works better than the pen, but sometimes I use the pen too
11:40 AM LeoNerd: The braid has no name on it. It's some copper wound around a yellow plastic reel
11:40 AM bss36504: or instead of
11:40 AM bss36504: Oh
11:40 AM HighInBC: I have some $12 braid and some $2 braid and the $2 stuff is pretty much useless
11:40 AM bss36504: Now that I have the Xuron gun thing, that's what I use for braid, and that is some high quality shit
11:41 AM bss36504: Tons of flux in the braid already, plus whatever I add....I should probably get a fume filter thing haha
11:41 AM Epsilon_Aurigae: just don't use copper pipe flux...that stuff's a bit on the corrosive side.
11:41 AM bss36504: Yeah definitely
11:42 AM Epsilon_Aurigae: bss36504, fume filters are for babies...or people who intend to have babies in the future...which,,well,,,nerds..
11:42 AM bss36504: It will eat all kinds of stuff, including packages, LED lenses...etc
11:42 AM bss36504: Epsilon_Aurigae: Hey, I'm a pretty sociable nerd ;)
11:42 AM LeoNerd: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7tck6K7NL6AX2VDeHZWaXR0cUE <-- my solderbraid, and the results of using it
11:43 AM bss36504: Yeah, probably just shit, or your iron isn't able to heat the ground plane plus the braid enough
11:43 AM bss36504: probably the former rather than the latter
11:43 AM LeoNerd: So... iron is set to 380 currently. If I hold braid on the iron in the air (i.e. not involving the board) and touch it with some new solder, it should just suck that stuff right up yes?
11:43 AM HighInBC: you can pull some solder off just by stroking it with a clean iron tip
11:43 AM LeoNerd: A good test?
11:44 AM LeoNerd: HighInBC: nope, again that just smushes it around like plasticine
11:44 AM LeoNerd: It may be the solder isn't any good :/
11:44 AM bss36504: that could be too
11:44 AM HighInBC: are you using lead free solder?
11:44 AM bss36504: is the solder lead free?
11:44 AM HighInBC: because lead free solder sucks
11:44 AM Epsilon_Aurigae: I'm betting on the iron...what wattage is it?
11:44 AM bss36504: HighInBC: Beat me to it ;)
11:44 AM LeoNerd: Nope; it's 63/36
11:44 AM HighInBC: hehe
11:44 AM bss36504: Epsilon_Aurigae: 60W
11:44 AM LeoNerd: Yah I was using leadfree first off and that was *waaaay* worse - all goopy and bridged even more
11:44 AM Epsilon_Aurigae: hmm...should have enough power.
11:44 AM LeoNerd: This isn't bad but still bridges sometimes
11:45 AM Epsilon_Aurigae: lead free bridges itself AFTER you solder it together.
11:45 AM Epsilon_Aurigae: those tin whiskers are nasty.
11:46 AM bss36504: I think that though is down to solder quality. Yes, in a production environment Lead Free is more trouble, but high quality lead free alloys should work ok for hobby/hand soldering too.
11:46 AM bss36504: Just don't buy it at radioshack or something similar
11:46 AM LeoNerd: Ahhh! Progress! Adding flux pen to the braid makes it work much better
11:46 AM LeoNerd: That indeed pulled my bride off :)
11:46 AM LeoNerd: *ahem* bridge
11:46 AM HighInBC: zinc whiskers have made for some difficult times in datacentres
11:47 AM Epsilon_Aurigae: the bride should pull the husband off.
11:47 AM bss36504: hey-oo
11:47 AM HighInBC: from brackets for ventillation
11:47 AM Epsilon_Aurigae: bss36504, I'm a high functioning nerd...married and all...in fact, married and divorced and married and divorced and married...
11:47 AM HighInBC: random failures for years until they finally realized it was tiny metal threads floating into intake fans
11:47 AM HighInBC: Epsilon_Aurigae: you in an infinite loop?
11:48 AM Epsilon_Aurigae: no...
11:48 AM Epsilon_Aurigae: I was in a stupid loop.
11:48 AM bss36504: ha!
11:48 AM Epsilon_Aurigae: married and divorced the first one twice.
11:48 AM HighInBC: I just got married once, not sure I have the skills to do it more than once
11:48 AM Epsilon_Aurigae: current wife will be the last...
11:48 AM bss36504: How does the saying go...doing something over and over expecting different results?
11:48 AM bss36504: jk, that sounds unfortunate
11:48 AM Epsilon_Aurigae: definition of insanity
11:48 AM Epsilon_Aurigae: she was a fun lay.
11:48 AM bss36504: That'll do it
11:48 AM Epsilon_Aurigae: but she was a bitch out of bed.
11:49 AM bss36504: How does that other saying go? Don't go sticking your dick in crazy
11:49 AM Epsilon_Aurigae: when I told her I didn't want to have anything to do with her cult(mormons) anymore she came at me with a woodcarving knife.
11:49 AM bss36504: I've fortunately dodged all those bullets so far
11:49 AM bss36504: Sounds like you made the right call getting out of that one
11:50 AM Epsilon_Aurigae: met the first wife when I was in the USAF, living in the dorms...that should have been a giveaway...she was a dorm bunny
11:50 AM Epsilon_Aurigae: hopping from room to room.
11:51 AM bss36504: Oh boy...
11:51 AM Epsilon_Aurigae: LeoNerd, I've bought a lot of cheap ass solder wick that didn't have any flux in it....it was horrid till I soaked it.
11:52 AM Epsilon_Aurigae: specially if it is old...gets a bit of copper oxide on it and solder won't stick to it.
11:53 AM Epsilon_Aurigae: the flux cleans that in a hurry.
11:54 AM HighInBC: the newer a religion was invented the less excuse there is to believe it
11:55 AM HighInBC: like sure 2000 years ago they believe crazy things, but 1830... okay still a while back, but scientoligists?? Believing in crazy stuff made up in the 50s is just silly
11:58 AM Epsilon_Aurigae: scientology was created on a bet....different versions have it at 5 or 20 dollars.
11:58 AM Epsilon_Aurigae: between scifi writers at some convention.
11:58 AM Epsilon_Aurigae: Hubbard won the bet.
12:01 PM Epsilon_Aurigae: I joined the mormon church to get in the pants of a 16 year old girl in australia.
12:01 PM Epsilon_Aurigae: yes, it worked.
12:01 PM Emil: bss36504: I'll order that
12:02 PM Emil: bss36504: do you have a link?
12:02 PM Emil: Epsilon_Aurigae: you are at some other place now?
12:02 PM Emil: Or why do you use another nick
12:02 PM Epsilon_Aurigae: I'm at an airport
12:02 PM Epsilon_Aurigae: waiting for a plane.
12:03 PM Emil: Yeah but why not use a server for irc?
12:03 PM Epsilon_Aurigae: using my work computer...not remoted into my home computer.
12:03 PM Emil: or rather
12:03 PM Epsilon_Aurigae: I normally remote into my home computer and go from there.
12:03 PM Epsilon_Aurigae: but the wifi here is,,,not fast.
12:03 PM Emil: since shitnode has accounts
12:03 PM Emil: why not just nick in your normal nick?
12:03 PM Epsilon_Aurigae: so I just installed hexchat locally.
12:03 PM Emil: allrighty
12:03 PM Epsilon_Aurigae: my regular nick is in use?
12:04 PM Epsilon_Aurigae: from my home computer.
12:04 PM Emil: So?
12:04 PM Epsilon_Aurigae: I been at this flippin airport since 5:30AM
12:04 PM Emil: You can still nick it
12:04 PM Epsilon_Aurigae: is currently 11:30AM
12:05 PM Epsilon_Aurigae: I could...prefer to leave it alone and let it record at home.
12:05 PM Emil: Drop the AM/PM and use 24h like normal people do
12:05 PM Emil: It only affects the nick
12:05 PM Epsilon_Aurigae: ok.
12:05 PM Emil: nothing else
12:05 PM Epsilon_Aurigae: 0530 and 1130
12:05 PM Epsilon_Aurigae: this works though.
12:08 PM Emil: bss36504: dat wickgun
12:08 PM Emil: Cooooooooooooooost
12:08 PM Epsilon_Aurigae: moneys.
12:08 PM Epsilon_Aurigae: so, I'm getting paid to sit in an airport and play on irc all day.
12:08 PM Emil: :D
12:08 PM Emil: Niec
12:08 PM Emil: Nice
12:08 PM Epsilon_Aurigae: first plane had a bit of a problem in that it had a fire in the starboard engine while taxiing toward the runway.
12:08 PM Epsilon_Aurigae: next flight got canceled due to bad weather in chicago..the flight couldn't get out of there to get here.
12:08 PM Epsilon_Aurigae: I'm now waiting on third.
12:08 PM Epsilon_Aurigae: another hour and a half to boarding.
12:09 PM Epsilon_Aurigae: trying to decide if I want to pay $10.00 for a grilled cheese sandwich.
12:17 PM LeoNerd: Well, third time did it.. it's now working finally :)
12:17 PM LeoNerd: Thanks all
12:27 PM LeoNerd: Hah.. So.. this is something of a skeleton board, partially configured by means of solder jumpers. I had more trouble intentionally bridging those, than accidentally bridging the MCU pins
12:36 PM day__ is now known as daey
01:13 PM Epsilon_Aurigae: aaand, the flight is now delayed another hour and twenty minutes.
01:13 PM Epsilon_Aurigae: which means I will miss my current connecting flight.
01:13 PM Epsilon_Aurigae: hopefully that's delayed too.
01:31 PM bss36504: Emil: Sorry, was AFK. Did you find it?
01:33 PM bss36504: Were you complaining of the cost? It's like 29euro! Granted, I got mine for free sooo...
01:46 PM bss36504: Anybody else been keeping tabs on the new Autodesk EAGLE? Seems like they're making some progress, though I couldn't get EAGLE 8 to run on my Win10 machine so idk
02:18 PM julius: Lambda_Aurigae: i killed it...it is DEAD ;)
02:19 PM julius: the printer i mean, keeps telling me that theres a paper jam :(
02:21 PM cehteh: dust on the sensor
02:23 PM Emil: bss36504: yeah I was looking for an eBay link
02:23 PM Emil: I can't seem to find one from China
02:24 PM Emil: bss36504: forget about Eagle
02:24 PM Emil: it's dead
02:24 PM Emil: Stick to KiCAD
02:24 PM rue_shop3: stirp it down for parts, in the process, you will find the little peice of paper that got loose and made it stop working
02:24 PM rue_shop3: I use eagle for making schematics
02:26 PM Emil: Your loss
02:27 PM julius: probably
02:32 PM bss36504: Emil: Gotta get some of that sweet sweet American manufacturing. Xuron tools are made in the USA
02:33 PM bss36504: I saw one on ebay though, still $29
02:33 PM bss36504: That's totally worth it though
02:33 PM bss36504: just buy it
02:33 PM bss36504: I tried KiCAD once and the schematic entry made me want to stab my eyeballs out.
02:36 PM bss36504: If only an altium free/hobby license existed.
02:36 PM Tom_itx: just suck it up and use eagle
02:36 PM bss36504: I already do!
02:36 PM Tom_itx: it's no worse than any of the high dollar ones
02:36 PM bss36504: I started with eagle, but altium is pretty fuckin great
02:36 PM bss36504: used it at work abit
02:36 PM bss36504: a bit*
02:36 PM bss36504: For home stuff I use eagle.
02:37 PM Tom_itx: yeah i've not used it but have messed with pads a bit
02:37 PM bss36504: I'll probably just suck it up and use KiCAD from now on.
02:38 PM Tom_itx: i don't care for the newer eagle versions but it has come a long ways from when i started with it
02:40 PM bss36504: The fact that KiCAD has a shove router is immensely helpful. So many wasted clicks in eagle because Oh I need to drop a via in this bundle of wires and then bump them all out
02:53 PM julius: could it be possible that if i get a new "black thingie" http://138.201.90.94/public/20170710_211752.jpg the big black "foil" part that the print output improves? it sometimes does not look so clear
03:07 PM Emil: bss36504: lol
03:07 PM Emil: bss36504: not with my salary
03:07 PM Emil: Also KiCAD is shit but at least it's shit that you can build what the fuck you want (like take all the carbon and refine it to diamonds, given time)
03:08 PM Emil: Eagle's just someone elses shit
03:08 PM Emil: Altium is someone else's expensive shit
03:21 PM Emil: I'm biased if you coudln't tell
03:22 PM antto: kicad is the right kind of sh*t for me
03:22 PM Emil: Wtf
03:22 PM Emil: Have the chinese really no copy of the Xuron tools
03:23 PM Emil: wwwttttffff
03:23 PM Emil: This can't be right
03:23 PM Emil: I _depend_ on them copying everything :D
03:24 PM antto: dependancy on libchina is like dependancy on libboost
03:24 PM antto: u realize dat?
03:24 PM Emil: Naaaah
03:24 PM Emil: chink shit is like
03:25 PM Emil: It's like getting thins for free
03:25 PM Emil: :D
03:25 PM Emil: things*
03:25 PM antto: try building your own china then
03:25 PM antto: >:)
03:25 PM Emil: But that would lower our standard of living
03:25 PM Emil: nokthx
03:26 PM Emil: Holy shit it's really true
03:26 PM Emil: Am I using the wrong search terms
03:26 PM antto: i always speak da truth, maaan
03:27 PM Emil: The Chinese have not copied it
03:27 PM Emil: How the fuck is this possible
03:27 PM antto: you have to hire a botnet, to flood google with searches for the stuff you want
03:28 PM Emil: yEAH
03:28 PM antto: then china will pick it up
03:28 PM Emil: Make them believe there's a market
03:28 PM Emil: Yup
03:28 PM bss36504: Don't buy cheap tools
03:28 PM Emil: bss36504: they work just fine:D
03:28 PM bss36504: save your money, buy good ones
03:28 PM bss36504: Eh, alright
03:28 PM Emil: I talked about this with a friend
03:29 PM antto: but when they make a whole ship full of that stuff, and only one guy buys one or two - they'll figure it out
03:29 PM Emil: we both doSRA
03:29 PM Emil: SRA*
03:29 PM antto: then they'll trace it back to you
03:29 PM bss36504: Emil: How about this one? http://www.ebay.com/itm/American-Beauty-485-8C-Dri-Wick-Desoldering-Braid-with-Thumb-Wheel-Dispenser-/351878841328?epid=1940073926&hash=item51ed9d03f0:g:qKAAAOSw9~5ZVhiM
03:29 PM Emil: and if you always buy the best most expensive tool youc an to never have to do anything with it, you don't buy many tools and you miss out on doing things
03:29 PM bss36504: probably sucks, but it's cheaper
03:29 PM Emil: bss36504: it's from the states
03:29 PM bss36504: Well yeah but I also tend not to buy tools i don't need
03:30 PM Emil: bss36504: the shipping will be atrocious+alv
03:30 PM Emil: bss36504: but even when your tool might not be the best one
03:30 PM Emil: you still have the tool for the job
03:30 PM bss36504: Ah of course, shipping
03:30 PM bss36504: I guess that's true, but certain things it's good to buy name brand
03:30 PM Emil: instead of thinking everything as a nail when you have hammer
03:30 PM Emil: bss36504: oh absolutely
03:30 PM bss36504: If you buy the xuron, you know you're getting a quality tool
03:30 PM Emil: if I had the money I'd only buy quality stuff
03:31 PM antto: a real man really only needs one tool - teh hammer \o/
03:31 PM Emil: bss36504: that's Apple talk
03:31 PM bss36504: nahhh, xuron makes legitimately nice stuff
03:31 PM bss36504: Almost as good as Wiha
03:32 PM bss36504: Speaking of Wiha, this was one of my best ever tool purchases: https://www.wihatools.com/screwdrivers/drive-loc/drive-loc-vi-interchangeable-blade-32-piece-set-in-folding-wallet
03:33 PM bss36504: Got a deal on it for like $50 off
03:34 PM bss36504: And they sent me a hat :D
03:34 PM antto: a screwdriver with a round handle?
03:34 PM antto: i absolutely hate that
03:34 PM antto: you put it on the table - it rolls around and falls off
03:37 PM Emil: bss36504: link didnät work
03:37 PM Emil: Holy fucking shit they are retarded
03:37 PM Emil: They redirect based onip
03:37 PM bss36504: antto: No, it has flats on it
03:37 PM bss36504: Emil: Really? lol
03:37 PM Emil: What the fuck
03:38 PM antto: yeah, i also couldn't see the original url
03:38 PM Emil: let me fucking see your murican site
03:38 PM Emil: you cancerous retards
03:38 PM Emil: https://emil.fi/jako/kuvat/2017-07-10_23-07-38_bzHwPuXV.png
03:38 PM antto: so i see what's on their main page.. some round screwdrivers
03:38 PM * antto pukes
03:38 PM bss36504: How about this? goo.gl/Z53YCy
03:38 PM Emil: bss36504: that's just a short link
03:38 PM bss36504: Oh, sorry, I didnt understand the problem
03:38 PM bss36504: I gotcha now
03:39 PM bss36504: https://www.digikey.com/products/en/tools/screw-and-nut-drivers-sets/249?k=%20281883
03:39 PM bss36504: Try that
03:39 PM bss36504: wait wut, hang on
03:41 PM bss36504: Jesus H this is way more difficult than it should be. No idea why that digikey link won't work
03:41 PM bss36504: https://www.digikey.com/short/30179v
03:41 PM bss36504: There we go
03:42 PM antto: three hundred bucks?! o_O
03:47 PM Emil: Nothing special
03:47 PM Emil: tools tend to cost
03:48 PM renn0xtk9: When using 16Mhz crystal with an ATMEGA, on some schematics I see you have to use 22pF , mine are 18pF . Does that matter a lot? (I can't get it working so far, but don't know if that is the trouble)
03:50 PM Emil: bss36504: https://emil.fi/jako/kuvat/2017-07-10_23-19-30_ytuhjcZY.png
03:50 PM bss36504: antto: Honestly super worth it. A) High Quality B) The adjustable bit length is super cool and very handy C) Extendable, D) all the bits I need for the most part
03:50 PM Emil: renn0xtk9: no
03:50 PM Emil: renn0xtk9: 18pF is fine
03:50 PM bss36504: Emil: hahaha
03:50 PM bss36504: got em'
03:50 PM Emil: renn0xtk9: there are a couple of formulas to use
03:51 PM bss36504: renn0xtk9: just use whatever the crystal mfgr suggests
03:51 PM Emil: Cc=2Cl-2Cs or 2Cl-Cs
03:51 PM bss36504: usually says on the datasheet or even in the digikey product page
03:51 PM Emil: if they are off by a few picos it's nothing
03:52 PM bss36504: indeed
04:01 PM renn0xtk9: and regarding FCPU and CKDIV 8 , it works the same as with internal oscillator right? that is 16Mhz cristal with CKDIV8=0 I should get F_CPU=2Mhz right?
04:02 PM LeoNerd: Yup
04:02 PM LeoNerd: It's a general prescaling divisor *after* the main oscillator is selected
04:11 PM renn0xtk9: Hmm still not working: from there http://www.engbedded.com/fusecalc/ I am kinda confused what they Between "External Low Freq" "Full swing" and "External Crystal Oscillator"
04:12 PM cehteh: datasheet ftw
04:14 PM bss36504: renn0xtk9: My M.O. is pick external osc and max startup time. works pretty much every time with any crystal
04:17 PM renn0xtk9: okay got it
04:18 PM bss36504: good sanity check in case your code is just broken is to put the clock out on port B with the fuse settings
04:18 PM bss36504: check with an LED or better yet a scope
05:33 PM Jartza: wow
05:33 PM Jartza: went to see the mailbox, looks like my thermocouple probes already arrived