#avr Logs
May 19 2017
#avr Calendar
01:38 AM rue_bed: wholy jingle those diodes fix things up
01:41 AM Haohmaru: diodes ftw
03:24 AM Thrashbarg_ is now known as Thrashbarg
04:00 AM Emil: xentrac: just fyi, I didnt know how to do that from the get go, I just knew that a sigle bjt oscillator is possible and that with two you can already do a lof.
04:00 AM Emil: lot*
04:00 AM Emil: and googled rest
05:59 AM NoHitWonder^: Emil design me a voltage controlled oscillator, frequency range 15-8000hz
05:59 AM specing: Emil pls
06:00 AM NoHitWonder^: if its good ill pay money for it
06:01 AM NoHitWonder^: i've had plans making a analog drum machine
06:01 AM NoHitWonder^: the digital part is easy
06:02 AM NoHitWonder^: but would need some analog voices
06:45 AM Emil: specing: wat?
06:48 AM Emil: NonaSuomy: I can source you a part that does it for 20€/h with minimum 1 hour ;)
06:49 AM Emil: And boom
06:49 AM Emil: USB stick recovery DONE
06:49 AM Emil: A teacher came to me with a broken (pcb bent) USB stick, managed to recover the data
06:51 AM Emil: NoHitWonder^: *
06:53 AM NoHitWonder^: is it analog oscillator?
06:55 AM Emil: whatcha doing with 15Hz btw?
06:55 AM Emil: Isn't 20-20kHz better?
06:56 AM NoHitWonder^: C0 is about 16Hz
06:56 AM Emil: C0?
06:56 AM NoHitWonder^: musical note C 0, lowest note
06:57 AM Emil: Ah
06:57 AM NoHitWonder^: B8 is about 7900Hz
06:57 AM NoHitWonder^: which is the highest
06:59 AM Emil: I see
07:00 AM NoHitWonder^: this seems like a simple circuit http://www.circuitstoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/VCO-using-LM566.png
07:06 AM Emil: Why not 555 then?
07:08 AM NoHitWonder^: it would be good if the oscillator would be stable and not affected by tempature
07:08 AM NoHitWonder^: i dont think you can do it with 555
07:08 AM NoHitWonder^: but for drum sounds it dont matter much
07:17 AM NoHitWonder^: there are some VCO IC's. but i would be nice to learn to do a temp-compensated VCO with discrete componenets
07:24 AM Emil: but
07:24 AM Emil: why
07:24 AM Emil: they are bad :D
07:24 AM Emil: take more time
07:24 AM Emil: and are not as good
07:25 AM specing: Emil: btw do you have any PCM/BMS circuits done?
07:26 AM specing: I have a few here but they are part of batteries that are in use already, would be a shame to tear them apart
07:27 AM Emil: PCM/BMS?
07:27 AM specing: for liion
07:27 AM Emil: Power Control Manageg? Battery Management System?
07:28 AM specing: Protection Circuit Module
07:28 AM Emil: yeah just googled it
07:28 AM specing: BMS without balancing
07:28 AM Emil: But no
07:28 AM specing: basically I'm looking for a PCM that would communicate temperatures and other parameters to the motor controller
07:30 AM Emil: Anycase why would I design such when I can buy one or look at the typical application layouts ;)
07:30 AM Emil: You want data of a battery?
07:30 AM Emil: slap an attiny there
07:30 AM specing: ikd, just asking
07:30 AM Emil: or buy a circuit that does it for you ;)
07:31 AM Emil: specing: specify what interface you want (i2c, pwm, spi, analog)
07:31 AM Emil: and then sort digikey/mouser/arrow/farnell
07:34 AM NoHitWonder^: Emil all the oscillators in classic analog synths are built with discrete components and they are praised for their sound
07:34 AM Emil: mate
07:34 AM Emil: you design fucking electronics for a living or something, right? :D
07:34 AM Emil: You should know that hifi people are delusional AS FUCK
07:34 AM NoHitWonder^: that has nothing to do with hifi
07:34 AM Emil: They place value on ideas instead of actual sound
07:35 AM specing: I've got some gold hdmi cables to sell to you for $2000 a pop
07:35 AM Emil: I'
07:35 AM NoHitWonder^: hifi is retaled to amps/speakers
07:35 AM Emil: I've got diamond platinum ;)
07:35 AM Emil: NoHitWonder^: music makers are also fuckign retarded, too
07:36 AM specing: "diamond laced platinum fused gold carriers with silver additives" that'll sell like candy
07:36 AM Emil: specing: let's set up shop
07:36 AM Emil: lets*
07:36 AM specing: USB 2.0 cables a ha ha ha ha
07:46 AM day: specing: dont forget the oxygen free
07:47 AM Emil: day: that's not really a thing, right?
07:47 AM day: Emil: =D oh yes it is "oxygen free copper + hifi" google it
07:48 AM Emil: My head would probably burst from that idiocy
07:49 AM specing: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=oxygen+free+copper+hifi&ia=web
07:49 AM specing: lmao
08:00 AM NoHitWonder^: calling music makers retarted is pretty retarted
08:01 AM NoHitWonder^: musicians have the ability to learn new langueages more quickly than non-musicians for example
08:05 AM polprog: tsk tsk wireworld cables
08:05 AM polprog: hello by the way, im back ;)
08:08 AM specing: NoHitWonder^: if they are so smart they could learn physics
08:16 AM Emil: NoHitWonder^: sounds like you got butthurt ;)
08:17 AM Emil: polprog: where were you?
08:17 AM polprog: many plcaes
08:17 AM Emil: NoHitWonder^: but dont take it too seriously
08:17 AM Emil: NoHitWonder^: I'm only referring to this need for vintage/discrete things
08:17 AM Emil: polprog: explain yourself
08:17 AM polprog: Christianso, Denmark
08:18 AM polprog: ;)
08:21 AM Emil: interesrin
08:21 AM Emil: what's there?
08:21 AM polprog: a port, a shop, a couple houses.
08:23 AM Emil: comeon :D
08:37 AM NoHitWonder^: the need is only for learning things. just like polprog learns assembly
08:39 AM NoHitWonder^: and Emil, if something is way out of your understanding, it doesnt mean its automatically bad ;)
08:41 AM Emil: NoHitWonder^: mate
08:41 AM Emil: pls
08:41 AM Emil: If you want to do a discrete vco, go about it
08:41 AM Emil: But it is a fact you get a better solution if you choose digital
08:42 AM Tom_L: not the same sound quality
08:42 AM * Tom_L just decided to add that to the discussion pot
08:43 AM Emil: Tom_L: bettee
08:43 AM Emil: s/ee/er/
08:43 AM Tom_L: yeah, analog is for sure
08:43 AM Emil: Tom_L: pls no
08:44 AM Emil: someone might not know you are only joking
08:44 AM Tom_L: most just have their ears trained to shitty earbuds nowdays
09:09 AM polprog: NoHitWonder^: :P i used to play the piano
09:09 AM polprog: too
09:09 AM polprog: Emil: it's really the whole island..
09:10 AM polprog: it was a stop at the sail trip to karlskrona
09:10 AM polprog: nice city overall
09:14 AM polprog: apropos shitty earbuds and people nowadays, mp3 is getting more free
09:34 AM rue_house: is someone using an avr to control a pll?
09:40 AM skz81: <Tom_L> most just have their ears trained to shitty earbuds nowdays >> can this *REALLY* happend ?
09:40 AM polprog: im looking at you apple and bose
09:45 AM polprog: absolutely terrible
09:48 AM Emil: polprog: nice
09:50 AM polprog: Emil: it's all about the people and the weather
09:50 AM polprog: luckily the weather conditions were very easy
11:43 AM Emil: RTC recommendations?
11:44 AM Casper: last time I just used one of the timer
11:45 AM Casper: I needed seconds only...
11:46 AM Emil: I need actual RTC
11:47 AM Emil: Making a fancy binary clock for friends
11:48 AM Casper: with date or just the hour minute second?
11:48 AM Emil: Well, feature creep is real so it will use actual dates, too, but the dispay is just 6 x 2 leds
11:49 AM Casper: ok, so date is involved...
11:49 AM Casper: I wonder if there is a unix time to date converter on avr...
11:50 AM Emil: Yh, binary counters are cancer
11:50 AM Emil: But yeah there is
11:50 AM Emil: I think even from avr/time.h or something
11:51 AM Casper: if you have a timer that run always at the same prescaller and top, then at overflow, count = timermax*prescaller; if count > F_CPU then sec++ and count - F_CPU;
11:52 AM Emil: No no
11:52 AM Emil: I know I could use the AVR
11:52 AM Emil: But I much rather have an actual RTC
11:52 AM Emil: hmm I wonder if I could use a piezo as a speaker
11:53 AM Casper: if you want something even fancier, why not also use a wifi module and use an ntp server ? :D
11:53 AM Emil: I am already >:D
11:53 AM Emil: But that's not reliable
11:53 AM Emil: and it should work without wifi, too
12:03 PM Emil: Hmm
12:04 PM Emil: Hmm, anyone know if I could push avrdude data to any file/socket/device?
12:22 PM Lambda_Aurigae: Emil, I use one of several from maxim/dallas
12:23 PM Lambda_Aurigae: Emil, as far as the RTC chip goes.
12:23 PM Emil: Yeah they are pretty prevalent
12:23 PM Emil: Oh and avrdude supports sockets
12:23 PM Emil: But it seems only TCP
12:24 PM Emil: or hmm, I should look at the source if unix is also possible
12:25 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I like the ds1337 or ds1337C myself.
12:26 PM Lambda_Aurigae: ds1337C is nice in that it has an integrated crystal.
12:27 PM Emil: Oh that's pretty good
12:27 PM Lambda_Aurigae: like 3 dollars each though..bit pricy.
12:27 PM Lambda_Aurigae: at least, that's the quantity price I just saw.
12:27 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I've been lucky and they sent me samples.
12:29 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I used a ds1337C for the clock for my automated chicken coop door.
12:29 PM Lambda_Aurigae: the dual alarms were used to trigger the opening and closing.
12:31 PM Emil: oh lol 3 dollars is waaayyy out of the price range :D
12:31 PM riotz_ is now known as riotz
12:32 PM Lambda_Aurigae: there are others out there.
12:33 PM Lambda_Aurigae: you could just use an attiny with an external 32khz crystal and get away cheaper I bet.
12:33 PM Lambda_Aurigae: cheaper hardware anyhow...
01:30 PM Emil: Lambda_Aurigae: that's actually not a bad idea, really
01:31 PM Emil: I could probably use it for the rotary encoder, too
01:31 PM Emil: but hngh, implementing the time firmware
01:31 PM Emil: that's not something I'm really interested in :D
01:59 PM Emil: https://emil.fi/jako/kuvat/2017-05-19_21-27-20_eoxGmpt0.png
01:59 PM Emil: https://emil.fi/jako/kuvat/2017-05-19_21-27-55_cyfc02UV.png
01:59 PM Emil: Fucking kicad
01:59 PM Emil: what the fuck
01:59 PM Emil: Unconnected I don't fucking think so
02:20 PM timemage: Emil, i find i sometimes how to shut down pcbnew and reopen it if traces that shouldn't contact have for any reason.
02:21 PM timemage: Emil, basically they seem to compute/cache a fair bit from the actual data of the file and sometimes they're not very good at figure out when it has become invalid.
02:24 PM timemage: Emil, iirc, reloading the netlist (despite that it hasn't changed) sometimes helps. but i've seen this not help enough that i don't bother now. now i just cycle pcbnew.
02:24 PM Emil: but cycling pcbnew didn't help :/
02:25 PM bss36504: "Fucking kicad" was basically my immediate reaction upon trying it.
02:25 PM timemage: Emil, dunno. so far i haven't seen illegitimate gripes survive that.
02:32 PM Emil: https://emil.fi/jako/dokumentit/leds.kicad_pcb
02:33 PM Emil: anyone want to look at that quickly?
02:33 PM xentrac: Emil: I appreciate it! I had tried googling but apparently my googling is not best googling
02:34 PM Emil: xentrac: np
02:34 PM xentrac: this oscillator I feel like I understand better than the Schmitt-trigger-based one
02:35 PM xentrac: and I can see how to make it into a VCO, with a relatively predictable range
02:38 PM timemage: Emil, huh, so you have like a ground poor or both sides?
02:38 PM Emil: timemage: hm?
02:38 PM Emil: ah pour
02:38 PM Emil: yeah
02:38 PM Emil: I like it like that
02:39 PM Emil: I know I could have done one side ground and one side vcc
02:39 PM Emil: but didn't feel like it
02:40 PM bss36504: missed out on all that free decoupling ;)
02:40 PM xentrac: NoHitWonder^: obviously I'm no expert, but www.designinganalogchips.com has a lot of information about designing temperature-compensated VCOs and op-amps and whatnot, and it's written by the designer of the 555
02:40 PM Emil: bss36504: what free decoupling?
02:40 PM bss36504: VCC Plane/PCB as Insulator/GND Plane
02:40 PM NoHitWonder^: xentrac cool thanks
02:41 PM Emil: bss36504: if you look at my design
02:41 PM bss36504: I was jk
02:41 PM Emil: bss36504: there's a huge copper pour on vcc underneath
02:41 PM xentrac: the 555 has a relatively small tempco, according to what he says, but of course your external timing components can have tempcos
02:41 PM Emil: but also a gnd pour
02:41 PM bss36504: I don't have kicad
02:41 PM bss36504: also I'm at work
02:41 PM Emil: bss36504: the pics above detail it
02:41 PM Emil: too
02:41 PM Emil: ah
02:41 PM bss36504: it was just a joke anyway!
02:41 PM Emil: still have time to irc ;)
02:41 PM Emil: bss36504: I see sarcasm quite badly :D
02:41 PM bss36504: Yeah I keep it open in a web browser
02:42 PM bss36504: understandable, sarcasm is hard via text anyway
02:42 PM xentrac: in discrete components, you can use capacitors with very low tempcos and networks of resistors with opposing tempcos I think
02:42 PM Emil: I should write a js terminal client
02:42 PM bss36504: I use KiwiIRC, it's good enough for me
02:42 PM timemage: Emil, draw your vcc fill edge leftwards so it surrounds your vcc via
02:43 PM Emil: timemage: there's a track that goes from the via to the other track which is completely touching the pour
02:44 PM timemage: Emil, what i'm suggesting causes drc to stop complaining, if that helps.
02:44 PM Emil: really?
02:44 PM Emil: wtf
02:44 PM Emil: lemme try
02:45 PM Emil: Fucking kicad
02:45 PM Emil: how are you this stupid
02:45 PM xentrac: Camenzind's book I mentioned above is about designing circuits without using ICs, because it's about designing circuits to put *on* ICs, but of course there are a bunch of differing considerations
02:45 PM Emil: timemage: thanks
02:46 PM xentrac: in an IC it's easy to put 20 emitters on your BJT, or make a FET channel 1 micron wide and 20 microns long or vice versa, and everything has a diode junction to the substrate to worry about
02:49 PM xentrac: timemage: are the complaining DRCs in kicad or in some other software?
02:50 PM Emil: kicad
02:50 PM Emil: It doesn't account for existing tracks in some cases
02:53 PM xentrac: do you want to write a terminal emulator in JS? I don't think that's very difficult
02:53 PM xentrac: I wrote this one that doesn't scroll in 1K of HTML: http://canonical.org/~kragen/sw/netbook-misc-devel/dofonts-1k.html
02:53 PM xentrac: and that's including the font
02:54 PM xentrac: in that form it displays its own source code in a <canvas> (it's not using the browser's text layout functionality, which might make terminal emulation easier)
02:55 PM timemage: Emil, it kind of looks like you have overlapping zones on the same layer
02:56 PM Emil: Which layer?
02:56 PM Emil: Because there aren't :D
02:56 PM timemage: Emil, front copper
02:56 PM Emil: the front copper only has a single pour
02:56 PM timemage: Emil, sorry, yes. back. green
02:56 PM Emil: Where are they overlapping?
02:56 PM timemage: Emil, just, go in there and start dragging corners and see if everything makes sense. maybe it's just me.
02:59 PM timemage: Emil, yeah, i just moved the corners near the via, but closer to the pad of that 4 pin device and it looks like the other copper pour came over to meet it automatically. so, i dunno if they're layered or what. i've never used that in kicad.
03:01 PM Emil: timemage: the vcc pour has a higher priority
03:02 PM Emil: timemage: than the bottom gnd pour
03:02 PM timemage: Emil, okay. is it supposed to be composed to two triangles?
03:02 PM Emil: hm?
03:02 PM Emil: what two triangles?
03:03 PM timemage: Emil, dunno, i find pcbnew makes editing shit like kind of maddening. so it's not a claim. it's a question.
03:03 PM Emil: You can see the zone outlines are just rectangles
03:03 PM Emil: Lemme screenshot it
03:04 PM Emil: https://emil.fi/jako/kuvat/2017-05-19_22-34-12_6IUKyD4U.png vcc pour
03:04 PM Emil: https://emil.fi/jako/kuvat/2017-05-19_22-34-38_RXKDFOkp.png gnd pour
03:05 PM Emil: https://emil.fi/jako/kuvat/2017-05-19_22-35-02_9aEif7ap.png top vcc pour
03:07 PM Emil: Damn it costs to produce at oshpark, though
03:07 PM timemage: Emil, what are you doing to select like that?
03:07 PM Emil: One of these costs 3.36 dollaroos :D
03:07 PM Emil: timemage: on the edges you can click and it will let you select zone outline
03:08 PM timemage: Emil, ehh, clicking the edges does nothing for me.
03:08 PM Emil: you realy have to click on the edge
03:09 PM Emil: board edge
03:09 PM Emil: not the page edge
03:09 PM Emil: you know how you do copper pours (zone fills)?
03:09 PM Emil: You draw that area
03:09 PM Emil: there are edges you can click
03:10 PM timemage: Emil, heh, well, i can do it almost at random, but that's about it. i use pours. i don't usually have that many of them though. and usually i don't select them like that.
03:12 PM timemage: Emil, turns out if you zoom in too close to the edge it makes your chances worse. i'll fiddle with it in any case.
03:14 PM xentrac: are you saying that US$3.36 is a high cost?
03:16 PM timemage: Emil, okay, so i went back and just redrew the trace in two different ways without moving either the original zone boundaries or the via, also passed erc.
03:17 PM timemage: Emil, err drc
03:19 PM Emil: interesting
03:19 PM Emil: I tried it too
03:19 PM Emil: xentrac: yes
03:21 PM timemage: Emil, i also got rid of the other trace you don't strictly need because of the pour and ran thin trace to the vcc via just to see if that would provoke it into complaining by not surrounding the vcc via with vcc trace. but that works also. so, dunno.
03:25 PM timemage: Emil, i /think/ sometimes one kicad's problems is that it will sometimes consider two traces unconnected if their endpoints don't meet perfectly which happens when you edit things. so you can have 1 CM wide traces that land on coordinates 1 mm with their copper overlapping and it just thinks there's a 1mm gap there. and that comes up when doing surgery on traces. i should actually find out if that's what's going on, but usually it's just
03:25 PM timemage: irritating and i'll delete the trace or a couple segments of it and rerun it and then drc is happy again. other problems to worry about.
03:29 PM NoHitWonder^: xentrac this seems like a good book
03:30 PM xentrac: I'm really enjoying it; this is my second time through it
03:39 PM Emil: timemage: yeah
03:39 PM Emil: true
05:58 PM day__ is now known as day
06:58 PM Emil: Wanna feel bad?
06:58 PM Emil: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAPBm_0ftAY
07:49 PM Tachyon` is now known as Tachaway
08:43 PM day__ is now known as day
09:25 PM day__ is now known as day
10:31 PM Snert__ is now known as Snert