#avr Logs
May 06 2017
#avr Calendar
12:21 AM daey_ is now known as daey
01:01 AM rue_shop3: anyone here done an avr FFT?
01:56 AM grafi is now known as Guest70002
03:19 AM antto: on linux, where should my avr-gcc compiler executables be located? and where should the avr /include/ and /lib/ be?
03:21 AM Emil: in /bin/ probably
03:21 AM antto: there are a bunch of /bin/ folders
03:22 AM theBear: on this system the lib/include stuff is under /usr/avr/blah and the avr-gcc/c/everything binaries are in /usr/bin, which i spose makes sense, beingbins that all users will want, but not system/boot essential
03:22 AM Emil: actually in /usr/bin apparenrly
03:22 AM Emil: antto: /bin is not /usr/bin
03:22 AM Emil: if I say /bin I mean /bin :D
03:23 AM Emil: you can btw use commands type and which to locate executables
03:23 AM theBear: not a bunch, usually just bin and sbin in root and /usr/ and depending on how yer toolchains are handled by yer distro maybe a handfull of "special" ones like /usr/i686-pc-linux-gnu/(s)bin so multiple toolchains can co-exist, then usually the "current"/system one will be symlinked to /usr/(s)bin/gcc-etc so it works for anything just asking fer system gcc
03:23 AM antto: i installed avr-gcc via "apt-get" and it's in /usr/bin/ (according to the "whereis" thing)
03:24 AM Emil: yes
03:24 AM Emil: like I said already
03:24 AM antto: which also agrees
03:24 AM theBear: locate (maybe with some basic greppery) can be handy to find stuff you know the names of but isn't executable/in the path currently
03:25 AM theBear: mm, package handley systems like apt always got some handy way to ask for a list of files owned by XYZ package, if yer can remember what it is :)
03:25 AM antto: the headers and libs come as part of the avr-gcc, right?
03:25 AM antto: io.h and such
03:25 AM theBear: heh, neat accountable files and nothing else, my god it's nice not using windows
03:25 AM antto: but stuff like printf() comes with the avr-libc (which i forgot to install)
03:25 AM Emil: antto: they are installed as dependrncies
03:26 AM Emil: they come with the libc
03:26 AM Emil: avr-libc
03:26 AM antto: oh, okay
03:26 AM theBear: i think technically the avr-libc stuff is avr-libc (as opposed to avr-subarch gcc toolchain stuffs) but how they arrvie will depend on yer distro
03:26 AM theBear: generally anyone using one will also need the other for anything useful to work
03:26 AM Emil: antto: if you did sudo apt-get install gcc-avr
03:27 AM Emil: you have the libc also
03:27 AM antto: i used apt-get, but i get only avr-gcc
03:27 AM Emil: highly unlikely
03:28 AM antto: now i open synaptic and i have gcc-avr and binutils-avr, but i don't have avrdude or avr-libc
03:28 AM antto: they are sepparate
03:28 AM Emil: antto: https://emil.fi/avr details packages to install but actually I think gcc-avr and avrdude pull everything required
03:28 AM antto: oh, there's also gdb-avr o_O
03:28 AM Emil: avrdude is of course separate
03:29 AM theBear: avrdude is standalone, and what emil said
03:31 AM Emil: oh actually it seems gcc-avr doesnt pull the avr-libc, only suggests it
03:32 AM Emil: but lol
03:32 AM Emil: if you install avr-libc you get gcc-avr
03:32 AM theBear: mmm, i never used anything apt-based for long enough to get the hang of how all the finer points like that work, but ya know, so long as you got the gcc side, the libc bits, avrdude or something to program and maybe nano or leafpad to write in, yer larfin
03:33 AM Emil: and oog
03:33 AM antto: i had everything working on ubuntu14, but now i switched to debian, and installed avr-gcc only (thinking that would install everything)
03:34 AM Emil: the packages details who I should shout at for support for m328pb
03:34 AM Emil: antto: https://emil.fi/avr
03:34 AM antto: then i was offline for a bunch of days and i found out that i don't actually have the includes and libs at all
03:35 AM polprog: dkpg -l | grep avr
03:35 AM antto: so i used those from my ubuntu installation but the avr-gcc there was an older version and the libs didn't work
03:35 AM antto: now i haz teh internetz, so imma fix it
03:35 AM antto: i don't know what i've done on the ubuntu, but i had the includes and libs in multiple places in the file system
03:36 AM antto: i even have /avr/ in the root o_O
03:36 AM Emil: antto: https://emil.fi/avr
03:37 AM theBear: pfft, hardly deserves the title switching when they both apt based <cheeky-tricky_to_use_distro-grin>
03:38 AM antto: i took my /home/ onto a sepparate partition, and installed debian on yet another partition
03:38 AM theBear: i do love teh sucker, used it on literally everything i touched for many years, from production servers at clients locations i seldom get near right thru to little wifi routers and embedded crap like that, but i would never advocate it for others, that's just too unkind
03:39 AM antto: which sucker is that?
03:44 AM antto: Emil btw, afaik avrdude 6 can flash .elf directly (with fuses and eeprom and whatnot)
03:46 AM theBear: i spose i can tell yer it's called gentoo, like many perfect generic shaped penguins seem to get called in real life, but seriously, even if yer way smarter than me in all possible ways, it's a big long term commitment to keep it fun and awesome and less painful than normal distros... tho if yer like the idea and DO commit, my god it all works neatly... just so normalized across the board, things like the cross-toolchain maker-tool and how it integrates
03:46 AM theBear: multiple-toolchains with the package system, and the transparent pretty much flawless cross build and target-arbitrary-non-system/root fs/dirs stuff you can do with the standard package managing tools, ya know, if you wanted to just make some bits and pieces with yer cross toolchain all neat and minimal and without any build deps mixed in so it'll all fit nicely in yer tiny router image or whatever you feel like aiming your unnatural distro-powers at
03:46 AM theBear: that day
03:46 AM theBear: mmm, interesting re: elf with all in one
03:47 AM antto: yes, you don't always want to do that, but it's great when you have finalized your program and you have to program it onto fresh new chips
03:50 AM antto: i installed avr-libc now, and i don't have /usr/avr/
03:51 AM antto: i have /usr/lib/avr/ which contains bin/ include/ lib/ and x86_64-linux-gnu/
03:51 AM theBear: mmm, i spose it been a LONG time with just intel and moto style basically raw-hex files to flash various whatever chips, we deserve a little modernisation option like that by now
03:52 AM theBear: hmmm, a x86_64/linux-gnu (linux/os target fancy 64bit run and output style toolchain) in there ? seems a bit, interesting
03:52 AM antto: the bin there has ar as ld nm objcopy objdump ranlib readelf strip
03:53 AM antto: theBear no, that folder contains include/ and lib/ subfolders
03:53 AM antto: which have just a few files in them
03:53 AM theBear: maybe they name some of the bits like that by the arch they run on, AND land them in the /avr/ dept 'cos ya know, can't be using an avr/baremetal output toolchain fer anything "normal" the system tries to build
03:59 AM antto: okay, so it seems to work now
03:59 AM antto: avr-gcc 4.9.2
03:59 AM theBear: hooray
03:59 AM antto: i switched my whole project to C++ ;P~
04:00 AM antto: i get a minor size increase in the output binary
04:00 AM antto: in a non-scientific comparison
04:01 AM antto: but weirdly, i had multiple duplicate declarations of variables which i didn't get an error/warning for when building in C mode
06:26 AM grafi is now known as Guest91919
09:37 AM Emil: Guys
09:37 AM Emil: here's a poll
09:37 AM Emil: How do you pronounce PNG?
09:38 AM ninharp: pee-n-gee
09:38 AM ninharp: ;P
09:39 AM Emil: Wanna know what an RFC says?
09:39 AM Emil: Pronunciation
09:39 AM Emil: PNG is pronounced "ping".
09:39 AM Emil: MFW what the actual fuck
09:39 AM Emil: this is worse than idiots who pronounce GIF JIF
10:07 AM polprog: portabul netwek grapheecks
10:14 AM Emil: Portable Network Graphics in Finnish would be something like: pohrltabl netwörk gräfiks
10:15 AM Emil: or pohrtable perhaps
10:15 AM polprog: pe en gie. thats how its in PL
10:15 AM Emil: That's how it's everywhere
10:15 AM Emil: I fonder whose idea of a joke it was to say it would be pronounced "ping"
10:16 AM Emil: Pee än gee
10:16 AM polprog: i have problems with acronyms i english, i read them in polish sometimes (unless its an eng acronym like ATM)
10:17 AM Emil: whatcha mean?
10:18 AM polprog: unless its an english only acronym like ATM (cash machine) i will read it in polish. for example HTML. or AVR. or GDB
10:19 AM Emil: I don't understand
10:19 AM Emil: give an example
10:19 AM polprog: avr = /a faoo err/
10:19 AM polprog: not ei vi ar
10:19 AM Emil: yeah everyone does that
10:19 AM polprog: :|
10:20 AM Emil: why would anyone pronounce acronyms "as English speaking people would" of no relevant English speaking people are around?
10:20 AM Emil: AVR is pronounced aa vee är
10:21 AM Emil: not a vi ar
10:21 AM Emil: if with Finns
10:21 AM polprog: i dont speak finnish, so i cant pronounce that, lol
10:21 AM Emil: heh, same with that /a faoo err/
10:21 AM Emil: ;)
10:22 AM Emil: the point is that everyone pronounces acronyms like their own language would
10:22 AM polprog: really? honestly i thought its my problem :D
10:23 AM Emil: lolwtf :D
10:23 AM polprog: just my problem *
10:23 AM Emil: That would be absolutely horrible forcing of Anglodictatorship
10:24 AM Emil: don't tell me you have pronounced avr like English speaking people have with your polish peers :D
10:25 AM polprog: i did not, that would be very pretentious
10:25 AM Emil: good
10:26 AM polprog: very artsy*
10:26 AM polprog: wrong word
10:26 AM Emil: very wrong word :D
10:26 AM Emil: pretentious is good
10:26 AM polprog: wait lol, stupid dictionary bamboozled me :<
10:26 AM Emil: oh artsy has a negative connotation to it
10:27 AM Emil: I wouldn take artsy negatively in very few situations
10:29 AM polprog: so today was the last kids robotucs club meeting
10:30 AM polprog: i saw the arduino code the host wrote. hes a mechanical engineer.
10:30 AM polprog: the robot was cute, in ita own way
10:30 AM polprog: it communicated via bluetooth with a mobile.
10:31 AM polprog: most ready made modulea, he only made i2c io expanders himself
10:32 AM polprog: it worked. the kids had to steer the robot (tank like base) through a maze and retrieve the prop
10:33 AM polprog: they had to design and make the digging part (like the excavator has) and get the prop, which was sand
10:33 AM polprog: i liked it
10:34 AM Emil: Sounds nice
10:35 AM polprog: i have a picture, the robot itself was 3d printed by the host
10:36 AM polprog: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7nrducTAtMTMWJ0d24tTmgwSlE/view?usp=drivesdk
10:46 AM Emil: Mfw it would cost 50€ to get a RPiZW, the IR camera and the camera adapter to my home
10:47 AM Emil: And that doesn't include: power, memory nor case
10:49 AM Emil: GAH
10:49 AM Emil: CHIP is going to be updated with the CHIP PRO
10:49 AM Emil: FUCK
10:49 AM Emil: Costs less and has less features GOOOOODDD DAAAAMMNNN IIIIT
10:51 AM Tom_itx: we speak avr here not slang
10:52 AM polprog: actually avr jargon could be used as a slang
10:53 AM Emil: Sorry
10:53 AM Emil: Costs MORE
12:48 PM Emil: Hmm
12:48 PM Emil: So I'd like to connect two avrs on a single isp
12:48 PM Emil: Is it enough to just have a switch for sck to determine which will be programmed?
12:49 PM polprog: maybe
12:49 PM polprog: tryi it on a breadboard?
12:49 PM Emil: So much work
12:49 PM Tom_itx: why?
12:50 PM Emil: Tom_itx: I'd like to only have a single isp header and a slider
12:50 PM Emil: Instead of two isp headers
12:50 PM Emil: the spi is shared between the avrs so they are reset anycase
12:51 PM Tom_itx: i personally think you're begging for trouble
12:52 PM Emil: eh, perhaps, but bom must go down :D
12:53 PM Emil: And since the spi line is shared between the two avrs already
12:53 PM Emil: having two isp headers makes no sense
12:59 PM Emil: Hmm, I could just have a SP3T
12:59 PM Emil: Yeah, that'll do
12:59 PM Emil: For strong reset
12:59 PM Emil: Wait no then it'll attempt to reprogram
12:59 PM Emil: No it doesn't because it stays in reset
01:01 PM Emil: If I keep the reset pin pulled low, it shouldn't react to anything, right?
01:01 PM Emil: m328p
01:05 PM Lambda_Aurigae: Emil, you need to have the switch for reset.
01:05 PM Emil: Yeah
01:05 PM Lambda_Aurigae: everything else should be shareable.
01:06 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I've even done custom programming cable for multiple avrs on a single board.
01:06 PM Emil: https://emil.fi/jako/kuvat/2017-05-06_20-36-13_gzEcWGwz.png
01:06 PM Lambda_Aurigae: a little avrdude magic and you can pick different parallel port pins to play reset.
01:06 PM Emil: That's pretty cool
01:07 PM Lambda_Aurigae: just copied the stk200 and made prog1, prog2, prog3, and prog4 programmers
01:07 PM Emil: Lambda_Aurigae: so the chip that stays in reset is not programmed
01:07 PM Lambda_Aurigae: just changing the line in the avrdude.conf file that picks which pin is used for reset.
01:07 PM Lambda_Aurigae: actually, the one you put in reset gets programmed.
01:08 PM Lambda_Aurigae: when I did it, that's how it worked.
01:08 PM Emil: really?
01:08 PM Lambda_Aurigae: and I didn't use spi pins for anything but programming.
01:08 PM Lambda_Aurigae: the reset pin is held low during ISP
01:08 PM Emil: Ah, good to know
01:08 PM Emil: changing design
01:09 PM Lambda_Aurigae: you can actually make a programmer that doesn't include the reset line...just put a button or switch on the board that holds the reset pin low.
01:09 PM Emil: Lambda_Aurigae: lolno
01:09 PM Lambda_Aurigae: read the datasheet.
01:09 PM Emil: If it is that anything pulled to low will get reset
01:09 PM Emil: I'll just switch the SCK lines
01:11 PM Lambda_Aurigae: and don't listen to me...it's a different chip that holds the reset low.
01:13 PM JanC is now known as Guest57282
01:13 PM JanC_ is now known as JanC
01:13 PM Lambda_Aurigae: nope...it can be done with reset held low the entire time.
01:13 PM Lambda_Aurigae: two different methods.
01:15 PM Lambda_Aurigae: if you can guarantee SCK state then you can just hold reset low the entire programming cycle.
01:16 PM Emil: Hmm, this is harder than I thought
01:16 PM polprog: i told you, breadboard it
01:16 PM Emil: Fuckit, let's not over engineer it
01:16 PM Emil: I'll just cut the other avr :D
01:16 PM polprog: its just 2 chips i header
01:17 PM polprog: and two resistors
01:17 PM polprog: literally doable in 15 min
01:17 PM Emil: polprog: it's not so easy when the other is also a slave to the other
01:17 PM polprog: ah
01:18 PM polprog: but that should not matter, it actually becomes a slave during program execution
01:18 PM polprog: i think
01:18 PM Lambda_Aurigae: yes...if one responds to SPI pin toggling then it can mess things up.
01:18 PM polprog: so we only have to consider the connection aspect of it
01:56 PM NoHitWonder__: man i love this avr simulator
01:57 PM NoHitWonder__: so easy to test stuff without even touching the hardware
01:57 PM Emil: which sim?
01:57 PM Emil: Also remember that all the sims currently out there are not exact simulators
01:58 PM NoHitWonder__: the one that comes with atmel studio
01:58 PM Lambda_Aurigae: problem with that NoHitWonder__
01:58 PM Lambda_Aurigae: one requires windows to run it.
01:59 PM NoHitWonder__: im making a midi sequencer so its easy to test timer stuff with the simulator
02:11 PM NoHitWonder__: im gonna make it korg sync compatible, so i need to generate 15ms 5V pulse on every quater note in addition with regular midi clock
02:24 PM NoHitWonder__: what would be best way to generate that pulse with atmega?
02:24 PM NoHitWonder__: timer0 + OC1A-pin ?
02:25 PM NoHitWonder__: im using timer1 as system tick, so cant use that
02:35 PM NoHitWonder__: so i need a function that i can call every quater note, that sets pin to 5V and clears it to 0V automatically after 15ms
02:36 PM Lambda_Aurigae: so, write one.
02:37 PM NoHitWonder__: i dont have much experience with avr timers so im trying to figure out what would be the best way to do it
02:42 PM NoHitWonder__: do avr timers work in single-shot mode?
02:43 PM polprog: yeah,
02:43 PM Lambda_Aurigae: https://wp.josh.com/2015/03/12/avr-timer-based-one-shot-explained/
02:49 PM polprog: Emil: nice lights, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKCvNMK61sM
02:57 PM Emil: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-t3O3YiFnaI this looks better
02:57 PM Emil: polprog: but thanks :)
02:58 PM Emil: polprog: that rappeling is from today btw
02:59 PM polprog: i know, i actually subbed
02:59 PM Emil: oooh
02:59 PM Emil: :D
03:05 PM NoHitWonder__: so they dont work in single shot mode unless you trick them ?
03:06 PM Lambda_Aurigae: pretty much.
03:06 PM NoHitWonder__: damn
03:06 PM Emil: NoHitWonder__: you need to generate what?
03:06 PM NoHitWonder__: read above
03:07 PM Emil: Yeah but it doesn't open it up
03:07 PM polprog: he needs to generate 15us(or ms) pulses
03:07 PM NoHitWonder__: <NoHitWonder__>so i need a function that i can call every quater note, that sets pin to 5V and clears it to 0V automatically after 15ms
03:07 PM Emil: Yes but what is quarter note
03:07 PM Emil: because 328pb can do that just fine
03:07 PM NoHitWonder__: that is irrelevant, its an event that happens
03:07 PM Emil: NoHitWonder__: it is not
03:08 PM Emil: If "every quarter note" is periodical you can just modulate the output
03:08 PM NoHitWonder__: the quater note timing is already done, now i need that pulse
03:08 PM Emil: m328pb can do it
03:09 PM polprog: dumb question
03:09 PM polprog: can you use arduino ide without the shitty hal?
03:10 PM Emil: YES
03:10 PM Emil: yes*
03:10 PM Emil: of course
03:10 PM Emil: Just put raw C there
03:10 PM Emil: I do that when I have to program on my Laptop
03:10 PM polprog: im partially asking cos i saw arduino ide on your videos and it did not add up lol
03:10 PM Emil: I should make myself a wireless programmer
03:10 PM NoHitWonder__: but emil how would you do that 15ms pulse ?
03:10 PM Emil: NoHitWonder__: m328pb has a dead time generator
03:10 PM Emil: and modulator
03:11 PM NoHitWonder__: im not using that chip
03:11 PM NoHitWonder__: im using atmega1284
03:11 PM polprog: NoHitWonder__: i would write 1 to a pin, set timer to overflow in 15ms and cath the interrupt, disable timer, write 0; done
03:11 PM polprog: generic solution
03:11 PM NoHitWonder__: well that works
03:11 PM Emil: polprog: iirc on some of my videos Arduino is used for some _extremely_ quick prototyping when I couldn't just bother, on most I just use it to program for example ESPs
03:11 PM NoHitWonder__: but if there would be a way to do it without the interrupt
03:12 PM polprog: but why
03:12 PM Lambda_Aurigae: turn on, loop for 15ms, turn off
03:12 PM Emil: Lambda_Aurigae: hehe, well that one is obviously out of the question
03:12 PM polprog: it would take cycles then. think of interrupts as a kind of multithreading
03:12 PM Lambda_Aurigae: multithreading/task switching
03:12 PM polprog: yeah
03:13 PM NoHitWonder__: yeah but there is no need for interrrupt if the timer can switch the pin to low and then just stop until its fired again
03:13 PM Lambda_Aurigae: multitasking would be closer than multithreading.
03:13 PM polprog: you either use timer irqs or write a delayed loop
03:13 PM Lambda_Aurigae: NoHitWonder__, that's what an interrupt routine is for.
03:13 PM Emil: NoHitWonder__: so you want a 15ms pulse, well I would perhaps do something like: set pwm timer, have it be on for 15ms and then you have the rest of the timer to shut it down
03:14 PM polprog: or setup an RC circuit and hardware comparators with lm385 or the like /s
03:14 PM polprog: ah yeah, pwm too can do
03:14 PM Emil: NoHitWonder__: that way you an just call a function that starts the pwm, which is on for 15ms and then turns off and then you have the rest of the timer count to turn that pwm off so the pulse doesn't repeat
03:15 PM polprog: imo timer irq is simpler, but pwm works too.
03:15 PM Emil: polprog: you still need a timer to do it
03:15 PM polprog: lol, it's even in the name, pulse-width modulation
03:15 PM Emil: but then you have the overhead of interrupts. It is conceptually simpler, though
03:18 PM Emil: NoHitWonder__: with irq you have the advantage that it is guaranteed that you turn it off fast enough
03:18 PM NoHitWonder__: yeah
03:19 PM Emil: with what I said you can get an interrupt if you want but the point is to poll the value and turn the pwm circuit off when not neede
03:19 PM polprog: yeah, "traditional" pwm could send 2 cycles every now and then and it would be a pain :P
03:19 PM Emil: hm?
03:19 PM polprog: so youre building a synth?
03:19 PM NoHitWonder__: no
03:19 PM Lambda_Aurigae: unlike writing javascript for web crap,,,,developing for a microcontroller requires you learn many different things.
03:19 PM NoHitWonder__: sequencer
03:19 PM polprog: nice!
03:20 PM enhering: Lambda_Aurigae, you say thing in such a soft way... I'm your fan!
03:20 PM Lambda_Aurigae: hehe.
03:20 PM enhering: things
03:20 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I'm a bastard!
03:21 PM enhering: When I grow up I want to be like that
03:21 PM polprog: Lambda_Aurigae: what i like about developing for a micro is exatctly the fact that you have to think both software and hardware :)
03:21 PM Lambda_Aurigae: if I wanted to do midi, I would probably go buy an old atari ST and the midi sequencer software for that.
03:22 PM Lambda_Aurigae: that thing had a midi port built in.
03:22 PM polprog: hehe. i know people who still use atari trackers to compose stuff
03:22 PM Lambda_Aurigae: me too.
03:22 PM polprog: as an instrument ofc not as the whole system
03:22 PM enhering: I like flying micros. Then the learning necessities are even greater
03:22 PM Lambda_Aurigae: hell, back in the day that was the machine to use.
03:23 PM polprog: flying micros? you mean literally?
03:23 PM Lambda_Aurigae: yes, literally.
03:23 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I've done it but not quite like he does.
03:23 PM enhering: https://hackaday.io/project/11724-yauvc-yet-another-unmanned-vehicle-controller
03:23 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I helped some kids do rocket flight monitoring.
03:24 PM NoHitWonder__: https://github.com/bigjosh/TimerShot/blob/master/TimerShot.ino i think this does it
03:24 PM polprog: i was thinking of a baloon or at least an on ground sensor logger
03:24 PM enhering: Rocket flight is amazing
03:24 PM Lambda_Aurigae: we did acceleration tracking mostly.
03:24 PM polprog: very slippery on the legal side though
03:24 PM enhering: NoHitWonder__: Hi!
03:24 PM NoHitWonder__: Lambda_Aurigae fatboy slim still uses that setup
03:24 PM NoHitWonder__: enhering hi!
03:25 PM Lambda_Aurigae: NoHitWonder__, no clue what that is.
03:25 PM Lambda_Aurigae: or who
03:25 PM Lambda_Aurigae: or whatever.
03:25 PM polprog: fatboy slim? well if it works
03:26 PM enhering: I need to buy some time. Does anybody here knows where can I find it?
03:26 PM enhering: know
03:26 PM enhering: My poor fingers cannot write english any more...
03:26 PM Lambda_Aurigae: can get you the formula for speed.
03:26 PM enhering: Sooo many mistakes
03:26 PM Lambda_Aurigae: then you can make some yourself.
03:27 PM enhering: Kid is ill. Had to sleep sitting down last night.
03:27 PM Lambda_Aurigae: least you didn't have to sleep standing up.
03:27 PM enhering: yep
03:28 PM enhering: that was good
03:28 PM NoHitWonder__: but i think atari st is quite expensive
03:28 PM NoHitWonder__: my seq is gonna be cheaper
03:28 PM enhering: There is a good side in everything
03:29 PM polprog: i am surprised that the GB color keeps price
03:30 PM NoHitWonder__: i have GBA
03:30 PM NoHitWonder__: need to do a mod for it
03:30 PM NoHitWonder__: baclit screen
03:30 PM enhering: Is it possible to put a small device in geostationary orbit with litthe money?
03:31 PM enhering: little
03:31 PM Lambda_Aurigae: define little
03:31 PM polprog: a small loan of a million dollars
03:31 PM polprog: what really costs is the fuel to put it up
03:31 PM Lambda_Aurigae: guessing something in the area of 5 to 10 mil could do it.
03:31 PM enhering: two k?
03:32 PM polprog: and the fact that there are 3 comapnies that can do it so they are pricey too
03:32 PM Lambda_Aurigae: if you can get someone to piggyback it on an existing flight.
03:32 PM enhering: Baloons, than small rockets?
03:32 PM Lambda_Aurigae: then
03:32 PM enhering: time
03:32 PM Lambda_Aurigae: it should be then, not than
03:33 PM enhering: 11.2km/s is easier ant 3000ft
03:33 PM enhering: at
03:33 PM Lambda_Aurigae: figure out your delta-V
03:33 PM specing: 1kg to leo = ~$10000
03:33 PM specing: and thats without reusing 1st stage
03:34 PM Lambda_Aurigae: specing, it's down since last time I checked.
03:34 PM specing: hmm, might have missed a zero, but I seem to remember 10k
03:34 PM specing: I mean sattelites are usually <5 tonnes and launches are like $60 million each
03:35 PM specing: ah no, 5000 * 10000 = 50 million
03:35 PM specing: all is well then
03:36 PM Lambda_Aurigae: once you are in LEO then you can get to geosync fairly simply....but it still requires 100Kg of hardware plus fuel to get there.
03:36 PM Lambda_Aurigae: getting to LEO is the hardest part.
03:37 PM Lambda_Aurigae: if it were cheap and/or easy then even north korea could do it!
03:37 PM enhering: eons ago I made simulation programs that could plot orbits and let me use virtual thrusters to alter them. My satellites always ended crashing on the ground.
03:37 PM specing: HEO is like 700 km above, so 7times as far
03:37 PM polprog: im sure nasa/eesa/roskosmos is hiring :D
03:37 PM polprog: enhering: i played kerbal space program and most crashed :P
03:37 PM Lambda_Aurigae: enhering, play KSP...it can be modded to real physics numbers.
03:37 PM enhering: Never heard of. Will try
03:38 PM Lambda_Aurigae: kerbal space program
03:38 PM Lambda_Aurigae: you can get free trial.
03:38 PM Lambda_Aurigae: multiplatform space "simulator"
03:38 PM Lambda_Aurigae: more of a space program simulator.
03:38 PM Lambda_Aurigae: you launch short green guys with big heads into space.
03:38 PM polprog: they really put a lot of effort to get things right
03:39 PM polprog: i recommend, fun for long evenings
03:39 PM Lambda_Aurigae: the physics for ksp is decent.
03:39 PM Lambda_Aurigae: but it only does 2-body orbital mechanics.
03:39 PM polprog: it's dificult to mae 3 body mechanics!
03:40 PM Lambda_Aurigae: each large body has a sphere of influence.
03:40 PM polprog: and a regular player doesnt know the difference
03:40 PM Lambda_Aurigae: ouside of that you go to the next largest.
03:40 PM Lambda_Aurigae: yup.
03:40 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I know the difference because I used to write software for the USAF to calculate orbits of satellites.
03:40 PM Lambda_Aurigae: taking into account 4 bodies.
03:40 PM Lambda_Aurigae: sun, earth, moon, satellite
03:41 PM polprog: us air force?
03:41 PM Lambda_Aurigae: yup.
03:41 PM polprog: wow
03:41 PM Lambda_Aurigae: GPS/NDS satellite systems.
03:41 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I worked on the NDS side of the world.
03:41 PM polprog: you can write a mod then :P
03:41 PM polprog: gtg, o/
03:41 PM Lambda_Aurigae: for ksp?
03:42 PM Lambda_Aurigae: no thanks...not that level.
03:42 PM Lambda_Aurigae: would require a core rewrite.
03:45 PM enhering: I did some very student like n-body physics simulations. They probably would never meet real case requirements.
03:45 PM Lambda_Aurigae: you would be surprised.
03:45 PM Lambda_Aurigae: most stuff the military uses approximates.
03:46 PM enhering: There is no other way. I had to monitor total energy to see if the system was not integrating too much
03:46 PM Lambda_Aurigae: yup.
03:47 PM enhering: And if I went to high energies things started to tunnel
03:47 PM enhering: soo complicated
03:47 PM enhering: for me.
03:47 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I don't know if they ever solved the full n-body problem.
03:47 PM Lambda_Aurigae: kinda doubt it
03:47 PM enhering: My last simulation try was to do FTDT to simulate EM fields.
03:47 PM Lambda_Aurigae: it's one of those recursive math functions.
03:47 PM enhering: yep
03:48 PM enhering: no...
03:48 PM enhering: not recursive.
03:48 PM Lambda_Aurigae: also some serious floating point calculations.
03:48 PM enhering: But when you try to put a charge in the field everything gets impossibly complicated
03:48 PM Lambda_Aurigae: yup.
03:49 PM enhering: You suddenly have to deal with the perturbation that that charge makes, in an already stablished field. Could not understand how people do it.
03:49 PM Lambda_Aurigae: because the field affects the field of the charge which causes the charge's field to change which causes the original field to change which causes the charge's field to change,,,ad-nauseum.
03:49 PM enhering: yep
03:50 PM enhering: That is more os less how quantum field theory people try to solve it.
03:50 PM enhering: But I do not agree, so I stopped playing
03:50 PM Lambda_Aurigae: you have to recurse it down to planck or some shit like that.
03:51 PM enhering: Maybe the charges have to be brought from infinity to create the initial conditions
03:51 PM Lambda_Aurigae: the computer time required for said calculations can run into the quintillions of cycles.
03:51 PM enhering: Are you aware of Dr. Mills work? BlacklightPower.com?
03:51 PM Lambda_Aurigae: nope.
03:52 PM enhering: You would enjoy it.
03:52 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I just did simplified 4 body orbital calculations.
03:52 PM enhering: He solves many, many physics problems with only classical physics.
03:52 PM enhering: He is rewriting everything
03:52 PM Lambda_Aurigae: and goes waay off into left field with the whole dark matter thing.
03:53 PM enhering: He goes everywhere.
03:53 PM enhering: With very accurate results.
03:54 PM enhering: And predicted fractional states for hydrogen. He even explores that to produce a lot of energy from a decay from n=1 to n=1/4, I believe, releasing 200eV per atom.
03:55 PM enhering: A lot of energy from water, with academia witnesses.
03:55 PM enhering: He hates quantum mechanics... :)
03:55 PM Lambda_Aurigae: so far not seeing a practical functioning prototype.
03:55 PM enhering: See the demos
03:55 PM enhering: They do produce a lot of energy.
03:56 PM enhering: Wikipedia is not a good source for them
03:56 PM evil_dan2wik is now known as dan2wik
03:57 PM enhering: In fact, wikipedia seems to be biased for many concepts. The stack exchange concept is much better to handle science than wikipedia.
03:58 PM enhering: Science must flow. Wikipedia freezes knowledge.
03:58 PM Lambda_Aurigae: still not seeing a practical demo...just some things that claim to produce energy.
03:58 PM enhering: It is like that with videos.
03:58 PM Lambda_Aurigae: lots of fun videos of a bright light producing device.
03:59 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I don't care about videos.
03:59 PM enhering: You can download the books for free
03:59 PM Lambda_Aurigae: peer reviewed, repetable experiments.
03:59 PM enhering: and dozens of peer reviewed papers
03:59 PM Lambda_Aurigae: and just as many out there who call it a fraud.
04:00 PM enhering: I'm not defending them. Just saying there is a lot of effor there. There has been for many, many years.
04:00 PM enhering: Science is like that. It leaps forward when old scientists die.
04:01 PM Lambda_Aurigae: yup.
04:01 PM enhering: People do not like changes. Scientists like less.
04:01 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I want to see a practical power generator out of it...put in cheap fuel, get out electricity.
04:01 PM enhering: The main base of Mill's work is a paper from Hugh, I believe.
04:02 PM enhering: Very interesting paper.
04:02 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I'm sure.
04:02 PM Lambda_Aurigae: what little I've read from their site looks like science fiction to me and I'm one of the more open minded sciencey people around.
04:03 PM enhering: I understand you
04:03 PM Lambda_Aurigae: from what I'm seeing he is burning silver to make a pretty bright light.
04:03 PM Lambda_Aurigae: and calling hydrinos
04:03 PM Lambda_Aurigae: dark matter hydrogen.
04:04 PM Lambda_Aurigae: anyhoo....gotta go do some work in the physical world myself...be back laters.
04:06 PM enhering: See you
07:07 PM Lambda_Aurigae: made a cherry wood console for my truck along with a cellphone mount.
07:07 PM Lambda_Aurigae: come july 1st this year you can't hold phone in your hand in this state.
07:07 PM LeoNerd: I'm sure I've forgotten something obvious here, so let me think out loud. I'm trying to output fCPU / 16 on a PWM pin. I've picked OC1A for the task
07:08 PM Lambda_Aurigae: can talk on phone hands free...so, I've got headset.
07:08 PM Lambda_Aurigae: but if you pick it up to answer or dial they can pull you over and ticket you.
07:08 PM LeoNerd: I've set Timer1 into CTC (ICR) mode, I've set ICR1 = 15; I've set OCR1A = 8. I've set the output compare mode to "CLEAR". I've set the bit in DDRx (DDRB / PB1 as it happens)
07:08 PM LeoNerd: But yet, my output pin OC1A remains at logic low.
07:10 PM Emil: have you started the timer
07:10 PM LeoNerd: Define "started"?
07:10 PM LeoNerd: The prescaler is set to 1
07:13 PM Emil: you have 3 control registers, go through them once more and share codw
07:14 PM LeoNerd: Hrm well OK..
07:14 PM Casper: Lambda_Aurigae: not a problem in my car
07:15 PM Casper: I just hit the talk button on the steering
07:15 PM LeoNerd: http://paste.debian.net/931110 various bits and pieces here
07:15 PM Lambda_Aurigae: my truck doesn't have that feature built in.
07:16 PM Casper: then replace the radio with one with bluetooth? :D
07:16 PM Emil: LeoNerd: mate
07:17 PM Emil: why do you do enums if you are just going to give them values :D
07:17 PM LeoNerd: I like them a little more than just straightup #define
07:17 PM Lambda_Aurigae: Casper, yeah, not...that would require modding the steering column and stuff too.
07:18 PM Emil: LeoNerd:
07:18 PM Emil: wherw is the com bits?
07:18 PM Casper: no need, they come with a talk button on the radio
07:18 PM Emil: where are
07:19 PM Lambda_Aurigae: Casper, too much to reach for that....this way the phone is closer and I can hear voices in my head just fine.
07:19 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I usually have the radio turned off anyhow
07:19 PM Lambda_Aurigae: so would have to turn it on to answer the phone with it.
07:19 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I listen to the radio once a week, maybe.
07:19 PM LeoNerd: Emil: timer1_setup_compA() sets them
07:19 PM Casper: or just leave it on at zero volume
07:19 PM Emil: oh yeah they were benearh
07:19 PM Lambda_Aurigae: again, why?
07:19 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I have bluetooth earpiece.
07:19 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I can hear the voices in my head just fine.
07:20 PM Lambda_Aurigae: and when I stop I can take it with me easily enough.
07:21 PM Casper: true
07:21 PM Casper: here, I listen to music all day long
07:21 PM Emil: Well, I'm off to sleep
07:21 PM Lambda_Aurigae: music bothers me unless I'm doing woodwork.
07:21 PM Emil: good night
07:21 PM Casper: nite emil
07:21 PM Lambda_Aurigae: hell, human voices bother me.
07:21 PM Emil: LeoNerd: lemmw know if you solve it
07:22 PM Tom_itx: Lambda_Aurigae i hear voices in my head without a phone
07:22 PM Lambda_Aurigae: often I will sit at my desk with my headphones on and nothing playing on them.
07:22 PM Lambda_Aurigae: Tom_itx, shhh....the voices said not to say anything.
07:22 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes they have some freaking awesome ideas!
07:24 PM Casper: do you also have spirits in your head?
07:25 PM Lambda_Aurigae: naaa...spirits aren't real...like gods.
07:26 PM Casper: that, I beg to differ on the first part
07:26 PM Casper: I can't prove, but I know they are real
07:26 PM Lambda_Aurigae: and I know I'm not from this planet. I've been telling people that since I could talk.
07:27 PM Lambda_Aurigae: we each have our own beliefs.
07:27 PM LeoNerd: Emil: No idea what was wrong, but I'm now using TOGGLE mode, so I can make a simpler setup by using CTC from OCRA and set that to 7
07:27 PM Tom_itx: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZQxH_8raCI
07:29 PM Tom_itx: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9yYJ6ZAYns
07:29 PM Tom_itx: with that i'm out
08:06 PM LeoNerd: GAAAA FSCKING.. *rages at Atmel*
08:07 PM LeoNerd: OK the *one* reason I want better descriptions of timers, is so I don't have to waste so much time to discover that 328P's "timer2" is the same as timer0, *except that* it has different values for the prescaler
08:07 PM LeoNerd: I was a factor of 4 too fast, because the datasheet is a mass clone copy wall of text, instead of pointing out differences
08:08 PM Tom_itx: you didn't know that?
08:08 PM Tom_itx: it's like you expect them to write it down or something...
08:12 PM LeoNerd: It seems I did not