#avr Logs
May 04 2017
#avr Calendar
12:24 AM daey_ is now known as daey
06:17 AM Lambda_Aurigae: May the Fourth be with you!
06:22 AM skz81: Happy Wookie to you
06:36 AM cehteh_ is now known as cehteh
09:30 AM rue_house: oh!!!!
09:30 AM rue_house: may the forth be with you too!
09:39 AM MacDefender is now known as MacDefender[away
09:45 AM MacDefender[away is now known as MacDefender
09:45 AM MacDefender is now known as MacDefender[away
09:57 AM Casper: rue_house: wrong
09:57 AM Casper: with you, may the forth be
09:57 AM polprog: doesnt forth use stack heavily?
09:57 AM polprog: if so, then RPN
09:58 AM polprog: forth you be may
10:00 AM Lambda_Aurigae: you forth with be
10:24 AM MacDefender[away is now known as MacDefender
10:24 AM MacDefender is now known as MacDefender[away
10:25 AM MacDefender[away is now known as MacDefender
10:26 AM MacDefender is now known as MacDefender[away
10:28 AM MacDefender[away is now known as MacDefender
12:46 PM polprog: i just spend 3 bloody hours trying to transfer a pcb image onnto the copper clad
12:46 PM polprog: that crap doesnt want to stick to anything....
12:46 PM LeoNerd: I let the good folks at oshpark do that sort of messy work for me :)
12:46 PM polprog: yeah, but i dont feeli like waiting a month
12:47 PM LeoNerd: There's always tradeoffs, yes
12:47 PM gnom_ is now known as gnom
12:47 PM polprog: i think it's the paper
12:47 PM polprog: they printed it on some thick one
12:52 PM Lambda_Aurigae: press-n-peel blue
12:52 PM Lambda_Aurigae: it just works.
12:52 PM LeoNerd: Heh.. works for single-sided perhaps
12:52 PM polprog: that's all i need :P
12:53 PM LeoNerd: I don't think I've ever made a singlesided board. I've got one board I'm slowly edging into feeling I need /four/ layers at least now
12:53 PM LeoNerd: The power routing is just too tight on only two
12:53 PM Chillum: I find proto board works fine while I am waiting a month for my PCB
12:53 PM LeoNerd: ^-- that too
12:53 PM Chillum: then I have a spare copy of the device, on all slick and neat looking and another that looks like a mad scientist made
12:53 PM Chillum: gotten fairly good at dead bug for those pesky SMD chips on proto board
12:54 PM polprog: yeah, i have the thing assembed on a universal board
12:54 PM polprog: i order some proto boards which have ready footprints for smd
12:56 PM polprog: if not that paper, it would go as easy as 1 2 3
12:56 PM polprog: last board went on the 2nd try
01:35 PM Lambda_Aurigae: LeoNerd, works for double sided too.
01:36 PM Lambda_Aurigae: print two sides on separate sheets...align and tape together...then slip board between them and secure.
01:36 PM Lambda_Aurigae: then press with a 2-sided t-shirt press.
01:36 PM LeoNerd: Lambda_Aurigae: ... and then do all the fine drilling.a nd the vias.
01:36 PM LeoNerd: and plate your vias.. how?
01:37 PM Lambda_Aurigae: drill hole and solder wire in.
01:37 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I don't plate.
01:37 PM Lambda_Aurigae: dremel drill press is a wonderful thing.
01:37 PM LeoNerd: Eh.. still seems like a /lot/ of effort
01:38 PM LeoNerd: Plus then if you're doing any sort of SMT work smaller than the usual TTH sizes, you'll be wanting soldermask
01:38 PM Lambda_Aurigae: true.
01:39 PM Lambda_Aurigae: but, I don't do that so no problem.
01:39 PM LeoNerd: If I'm working at TTH sizes, I'll be using stripboard
01:39 PM LeoNerd: By the time I'm at the level of needing a PCB, I'm already waaaay past trying to make the board by hand
01:40 PM LeoNerd: If I get oshpark to do it I get doublesided, plated vias, soldermask, silkscreening...
01:42 PM Tom_itx: you don't use hackvanna?
01:42 PM LeoNerd: Not so far
01:45 PM Chillum: I love that I can make breakout boards for next to nothing with oshpark
01:45 PM Chillum: itty bitty ones
01:47 PM Chillum: like SOT-23 breakout https://oshpark.com/shared_projects/rTfVs8NV 55 cents for 3
01:48 PM Chillum: always handy
01:48 PM polprog: ill get the negatives printed on proper paper tomorrow
01:48 PM polprog: ill pass for today
01:49 PM polprog: :/
01:50 PM Tom_itx: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/temp/tiny/tinyboard1.jpg
01:50 PM Tom_itx: free
01:51 PM Tom_itx: heck if you're gonna bother with that, solder wires to the legs
01:51 PM Tom_itx: defeats the purpose of smt
01:52 PM Tom_itx: i did donate one of mine to them though..
01:53 PM polprog: that one was toner-transfered?
01:53 PM Tom_itx: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/boards/USBTiny_Mkii/breadboard/ISP_to_Breadboard.jpg
01:53 PM Tom_itx: yes
01:53 PM polprog: wow
01:53 PM polprog: iron or t-shirt press?
01:53 PM Tom_itx: iron
01:54 PM Tom_itx: 3 traces under a sot23-6 is pretty good for homebrew i think
01:54 PM polprog: indeed it is
01:55 PM polprog: my problem with iron is that when i press, it doesnt stick and when i movr, it slightly smears (even though its secured with kapton) and makes bridges
01:55 PM Chillum: also silkscreening of a sort
01:55 PM Tom_itx: the copper isn't clean enough
01:55 PM polprog: thanks for tge tip
01:55 PM polprog: the tip.
01:56 PM polprog: it was really crusty, i managed to polish it with sponge
01:56 PM polprog: but it wasnt mirror-like
01:56 PM Tom_itx: i use copper cleaner then either iso or tolulene
01:57 PM polprog: iso... i only have ethyl spirit
01:57 PM polprog: should do
01:58 PM Tom_itx: i used to get everclear at the licker store when i was doing photography
01:59 PM polprog: hmm. i may give it a try tomorrow, ill nuke that copper clad
01:59 PM polprog: thanks, cheers, gtg
01:59 PM Tom_itx: you gotta treat each paper type different
01:59 PM Tom_itx: i've tried several
02:00 PM Tom_itx: i don't like the press n peel
02:00 PM polprog: its regular thin glossy
02:00 PM polprog: on the other hand, im done, ill stay :P
02:01 PM Tom_itx: the best stuff i found i got from a friend in Au
02:01 PM Tom_itx: pays to have global friends
02:01 PM polprog: heh
02:02 PM polprog: austria or *tralia?
02:02 PM Tom_itx: he's an aussie
02:02 PM polprog: long way from here
02:02 PM Tom_itx: was in Gold Coast at the time
02:02 PM polprog: ill try to find some super-thin glossy paper
02:03 PM Tom_itx: some of what i used was inkjet photo paper
02:03 PM polprog: like the stuff they print magazines on
02:03 PM Tom_itx: if you can get the toner to stick, i've used the peel off part of label paper
02:04 PM polprog: the waxed part?
02:04 PM Tom_itx: yeah
02:04 PM Tom_itx: we tried all sorts of stuff back then
02:07 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I use acetone for cleaning my boards.
02:08 PM Lambda_Aurigae: if I want a real good clean I then rinse with 99% ethanol.
02:08 PM Tom_itx: err, i meant acetone...
02:09 PM Tom_itx: none are very healty for ya
02:09 PM Lambda_Aurigae: yeah.
02:09 PM Lambda_Aurigae: acetone is great for lowering the blood sugar.
02:09 PM Lambda_Aurigae: like...waaaay low.
02:09 PM polprog: acetone instead of what
02:09 PM polprog: ?
02:09 PM Tom_itx: tolulene
02:10 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I was washing the floor of a pool with it getting ready to paint...shoes were melting...so I kicked off the shoes and worked in my socks.
02:10 PM polprog: ah yeah, toulene is not the healthiest thing
02:10 PM Lambda_Aurigae: about 5 minutes later the world went red and I got super shaky...my blood sugar had dropped to 55.
02:10 PM polprog: what the hell
02:11 PM polprog: why would you even take off your shoes if they melted
02:11 PM Tom_itx: i thought that but didn't ask
02:12 PM polprog: lucky bastard. did you manage to get outta there or somebody foud you?
02:17 PM Lambda_Aurigae: fumes..I wasn't thinking straight.
02:17 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I got out when the world turned red.
02:17 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I was young and stupid.
02:36 PM JanC is now known as Guest75375
02:36 PM JanC_ is now known as JanC
02:54 PM xentrac: acetone and toluene are among the most innocent of organic solvents
02:55 PM xentrac: I mean unless you count mineral oil
02:55 PM xentrac: I think their LD50 is similar to that of ethanol?
03:01 PM xentrac: oddly WP only gives a lethal concentration for toluene (55000 ppm; compare to about 10k for dichloromethane or carbon tet, 5000 for ethanol, or 500 for formaldehyde), no lethal dose
03:01 PM xentrac: so in some sense you could say that toluene is about a tenth as toxic as ethanol or 1% as toxic as formaldehyde?
03:02 PM Lambda_Aurigae: so I can drink 10 times the toluene?!?!
03:02 PM xentrac: possibly. I wouldn't bet on it, though
03:03 PM Lambda_Aurigae: prolly don't taste as good
03:03 PM xentrac: it might just be that ethanol absorbs a lot better through your lungs
03:03 PM Lambda_Aurigae: would have to mix it with something strong like grapefruit juice.
03:03 PM xentrac: acetone is also in the 20k ppm to 50k ppm lethal concentration range
03:03 PM Lambda_Aurigae: acetone is skin absorbable real nice too.
03:04 PM xentrac: yeah, that's a major risk factor with acetone
03:05 PM Lambda_Aurigae: that's how it got me...right through the soles of my feet.
03:05 PM xentrac: yup
03:05 PM xentrac: a much safer alternative in many cases is d-limonene
03:06 PM Lambda_Aurigae: safe..bah
03:06 PM Lambda_Aurigae: but, once we got that pool painted right we never had to do it again in at least 8 years.
03:07 PM xentrac: which as far as I can tell has never been shown to cause death by acute inhalation, even though it's pretty volatile (not nearly as much as acetone though)
03:07 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I sandblasted that thing to the concrete then washed the concrete with TSP then acetone rinse...then put on 2 layers of pool epoxy.
03:07 PM xentrac: what was the acetone rinse for? doesn't TSP dissolve in water like super well?
03:08 PM Lambda_Aurigae: well, this stuff was not real TSP..was the new substitute
03:08 PM xentrac: the sandblasting is probably the most dangerous part of that, if you manage not to die from the acetone
03:08 PM xentrac: oh, fuck that, man
03:08 PM xentrac: ersatz chemicals
03:10 PM Lambda_Aurigae: hehe.
03:10 PM Lambda_Aurigae: try sandblasting in march, in missouri, in freezing rain.
03:11 PM xentrac: that sounds like a terrible idea
03:11 PM Lambda_Aurigae: it was.
03:11 PM Lambda_Aurigae: that thing clogged more than it worked.
03:11 PM xentrac: a whole combination of terrible ideas really
03:11 PM Lambda_Aurigae: yup.
03:11 PM Lambda_Aurigae: starting with sandblasting.
03:11 PM Lambda_Aurigae: any time
03:11 PM Lambda_Aurigae: we started with sand then switched to rock salt.
03:11 PM xentrac: that's good!
03:11 PM Lambda_Aurigae: then back to sand
03:11 PM xentrac: oh
03:12 PM Lambda_Aurigae: the rock salt didn't do shit to that 30 layers of paint on the pool.
03:12 PM xentrac: nope
03:12 PM xentrac: and glass beads were too expensive, or what?
03:12 PM xentrac: sandblasting can totally fuck up your lungs
03:12 PM Lambda_Aurigae: never thought about glass beads.
03:12 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I had a respirator.
03:12 PM xentrac: yeah, but that shit gets everywhere
03:12 PM xentrac: most "sandblasting" in industry nowadays is bead blasting
03:12 PM Lambda_Aurigae: hell, I was wearing a parka, mittens, respirator hood, 3 layers of pants, and combat boots.
03:13 PM xentrac: in part because it's often nice to not blast away metal
03:14 PM Lambda_Aurigae: no metal to worry about..we removed all that before we started.
03:15 PM Lambda_Aurigae: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Turney,+MO/@39.6357031,-94.259523,92m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x87c1cbe3fe9e94fb:0xb76e0d5564c26cd1!8m2!3d39.6347238!4d-94.3210579
03:15 PM Lambda_Aurigae: there's the pool...hehe
03:17 PM xentrac: well, you presumably did have quartz to worry about
03:17 PM Lambda_Aurigae: in the middle of the pool there is a 5 foot diameter circle with a stylized kangaroo in it...that I drew by hand.
03:17 PM xentrac: if you can avoid abrading the quartz, you can avoid liberating silicosis risks
03:17 PM xentrac: nice!
03:17 PM xentrac: probably most of this stuff matters mostly if you're doing it every week
03:17 PM xentrac: somewhat more on-topic, I made this NMOS flip-flop in simulation last night: http://is.gd/shittyflipflop
03:18 PM xentrac: I'm trying to figure out how to make the metastable state it starts up in somewhat less stable
03:19 PM Lambda_Aurigae: so, you want a random flip on powerup?
03:21 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I don't see how that's a flipflop...
03:21 PM xentrac: yeah, that would be fine
03:21 PM Lambda_Aurigae: no inputs and outputs.
03:21 PM Lambda_Aurigae: just inputs
03:21 PM xentrac: yeah, the inputs actually are the outputs
03:21 PM xentrac: well, on the other side of the diode, anyway
03:21 PM xentrac: I should hook up outputs there
03:21 PM xentrac: a random flip on powerup would be an improvement
03:22 PM xentrac: but that's pretty easy to arrange with an RC circuit or something
03:22 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I think it's all in the order you built it in the simulator there.
03:22 PM xentrac: what I'm mostly worried about is that the same metastable state might arise under other circumstances
03:23 PM xentrac: I'm not sure if it's actually merely metastable
03:23 PM xentrac: I mean metastable states can't be avoided but this one acts like an actual stable state
03:23 PM Lambda_Aurigae: most simulators don't handle true parallel current flow..it goes through all the parts one at a time.
03:25 PM xentrac: really? I thought most of them generated systems of linear equations for the Norton-reduced version of the circuit, like spice
03:25 PM Lambda_Aurigae: if you set both to high then back to low then it doesn't toggle the yellow line...hehe
03:26 PM xentrac: which line is yellow?
03:26 PM xentrac: hmm, also setting both inputs to high is a kind of shoot-through condition
03:27 PM Lambda_Aurigae: green line and yellow line...the green line toggles up high..the yellow line seems to toggle low below the normal point.
03:27 PM xentrac: are you talking about wires or traces on the plot?
03:28 PM Lambda_Aurigae: plot at the bottom.
03:28 PM xentrac: ah, one of them is current and the other is voltage on the drain of the left transistor
03:28 PM xentrac: normal current is 5mA, which is still ridiculously high; the shoot-through current is 76mA because both transistors are in saturation
03:29 PM Lambda_Aurigae: yeah..something doesn't hork right.
03:29 PM Lambda_Aurigae: normally, toggling one or the other will cause a toggle to a stable state.
03:29 PM Lambda_Aurigae: which causes both lines to toggle together.
03:30 PM Lambda_Aurigae: but if you set both to high then back to low then toggle one then the other, then only one of the lines(traces) toggles.
03:30 PM xentrac: if you set both inputs to high at once, then the state you end up in is dependent on which order you toggle them back to low
03:31 PM xentrac: I mean that's the same behavior as the classic discrete logic RS latch with two cross-coupled NANDs or NORs
03:31 PM xentrac: is there a way to set them both back to low at once in the simulator?
03:32 PM Lambda_Aurigae: yes.
03:32 PM Lambda_Aurigae: but to get the original function, you have to reset the simulation.
03:32 PM Lambda_Aurigae: something with that simulation isn't right.
03:33 PM Lambda_Aurigae: and I've tried toggling back to low both directions and it acts the same either way only with the voltage trace being high or low depending on which I do first.
03:33 PM xentrac: it wouldn't be surprising if this simulator were buggy
03:33 PM Lambda_Aurigae: the current trace stops toggling up and down....unless you set both to high again...but it goes way negative with both high then back to 0ish.
03:33 PM Lambda_Aurigae: yeah....it's looking that way.
03:34 PM xentrac: I think the current trace is backwards
03:34 PM xentrac: I mean I think the wire is backwards so the current is always negative
03:34 PM Lambda_Aurigae: dangit...dominoes is really wanting me to order pizza tonight...3rd ad email in the last hour.
03:35 PM xentrac: I was able to provoke a return to the middle state by pausing the sim with run/stop with both inputs high, setting both to low, then resuming
03:35 PM Lambda_Aurigae: so definitely something funky with the simulation.
03:36 PM xentrac: but I'm not sure what you mean about the current not toggling
03:36 PM xentrac: oh! I know what you're talking about
03:36 PM xentrac: once you go into the shoot-through state, it rescales the Y-axis for the current graph
03:36 PM xentrac: so the 76mA pulse will fit
03:36 PM Lambda_Aurigae: aahh.
03:37 PM Lambda_Aurigae: ok.
03:37 PM xentrac: so it actually does toggle between 0 and 5mA afterwards but it's not as easy to see
03:37 PM xentrac: Emil is the one that turned me on to this simulator, btw. I wish him thanks
03:38 PM xentrac: so I'm not sure whether this metastable state is real or not, but I suspect it is
03:39 PM xentrac: I'd like to understand what the basins of attraction or bifurcation diagram or whatever looks like
03:39 PM Lambda_Aurigae: now you're getting into book learning stuff!
03:39 PM xentrac: haha
03:39 PM Lambda_Aurigae: if'n it don't arc right, rebuild it..
03:40 PM xentrac: yeah, in practice I probably am not going to design my own logic circuits
03:40 PM xentrac: although there are some things that tempt me. like, do you know about the GreenArrays ADC design?
03:45 PM xentrac: the one by Chuck Moore on the GA4 and GA144 chips
04:23 PM Lambda_Aurigae: nope.
04:28 PM xentrac: he controls a nonlinear VCO from an analog input, counts the transitions in software, and then corrects the nonlinearity in software with a lookup table
04:30 PM xentrac: but you could count the transitions with a ripple counter if you could get it to run fast enough, and then pause the ripple counter and read it out in parallel
04:31 PM xentrac: and I bet I could build a 500MHz ripple counter. with that, plus a frontend that doesn't totally disregard signal integrity and input protection, there's the e-waste 20MHz DSO
04:31 PM xentrac: but obviously I have a thing or two to learn before attempting that ;)
04:32 PM Lambda_Aurigae: above my pay grade.
04:32 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I was working last night on trying to drive ddr3 from an avr or pic32.
04:32 PM xentrac: oh man, that sounds like a nightmare
04:33 PM xentrac: do memory chips even work down to DC?
04:33 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I've done 30pin and 72pin simms from an avr.
04:33 PM xentrac: yeah, that doesn't sound so bad
04:33 PM Lambda_Aurigae: well, you have to handle constant refresh.
04:33 PM xentrac: what were you using the old SIMMs for?
04:33 PM Lambda_Aurigae: ddr3 is just faster and you get reads and writes on rising and dropping transitions.
04:34 PM Lambda_Aurigae: data capture and storage mostly.
04:34 PM Lambda_Aurigae: most I ever got working was an 8MB 72pin simm.
04:34 PM Lambda_Aurigae: that was the largest I had at the time too.
04:34 PM Lambda_Aurigae: 30pin simms are awesome
04:34 PM xentrac: yeah, I've looked at the datasheets but haven't tried them
04:34 PM Lambda_Aurigae: can solder pins onto the pads and they are 0.1 inch spacing
04:35 PM xentrac: but their wire interface doesn't look at all intimidating
04:35 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I got a bunch of 1MB 30pin sipp modules
04:35 PM Lambda_Aurigae: simm with the pins attached.
04:35 PM Lambda_Aurigae: plug straight into a solderless breadboard.
04:35 PM xentrac: haha, awesome
04:35 PM Lambda_Aurigae: then I found software and schematic for pic to access it.
04:35 PM Lambda_Aurigae: and converted to avr.
04:35 PM xentrac: and they're slow enough that the 2pF pin-to-pin capacitance on the breadboard isn't a problem, I imagine?
04:37 PM Lambda_Aurigae: http://www.piclist.com/techref/microchip/dram_c.htm
04:38 PM Lambda_Aurigae: no problems at all.
04:38 PM Lambda_Aurigae: heck, I rely on that capacitance sometimes!
04:38 PM Lambda_Aurigae: build projects with crystal and no starter caps.
04:38 PM xentrac: heh
04:39 PM Lambda_Aurigae: confused me the first time it worked.
04:39 PM Lambda_Aurigae: on some of my cheaper boards it works..on one expensive one it doesn't
04:39 PM Lambda_Aurigae: the mid range ones are iffy.
04:39 PM Lambda_Aurigae: the expensive ones have metal plates between the rows that are connected to a ground plane under everything.
04:43 PM xentrac: haha
04:43 PM xentrac: I didn't know those existed
04:43 PM Lambda_Aurigae: 35 dollars for your normal sized one.
04:44 PM Lambda_Aurigae: have had it for a good 20 years.
04:44 PM Lambda_Aurigae: it/them
04:44 PM Lambda_Aurigae: two of them
04:44 PM Lambda_Aurigae: wish I had more.
04:46 PM xentrac: speaking of breadboards, this product is awesome, although you are going to hate it vigorously: https://www.sparkfun.com/products/14084
04:46 PM xentrac: well, I haven't tried it. it *looks* like it is awesome
04:46 PM Lambda_Aurigae: kinda cool
04:46 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I like pink!
04:47 PM polprog: lol
04:47 PM Lambda_Aurigae: ardweeny link thing isn't it?
04:47 PM polprog: nah, its cute
04:47 PM xentrac: cool!
04:47 PM polprog: i would buy one for my sis to learn electronics
04:48 PM Lambda_Aurigae: ardweeny built in!
04:48 PM Lambda_Aurigae: hehe
04:48 PM polprog: also, it juat hit me, ardweeny is for people who dont want the hassle of learning electronics and learn electronics
04:48 PM Lambda_Aurigae: but for 45 dollars,,,ummm.
04:48 PM polprog: wait, is has a builting ard?
04:48 PM polprog: wot
04:48 PM Lambda_Aurigae: yup.
04:48 PM polprog: dear god.
04:48 PM Lambda_Aurigae: read the description.
04:49 PM Lambda_Aurigae: atmega32u2
04:49 PM xentrac: well, not just a 32u2
04:49 PM xentrac: I mean the recent Arduinos have a 32u2 for the USB interface, plus the 328P
04:49 PM Lambda_Aurigae: this has that too.
04:49 PM polprog: isnt like m428p the arduino flag chip?
04:49 PM xentrac: exactly
04:50 PM xentrac: the mega?
04:50 PM Lambda_Aurigae: m328p, yeah
04:50 PM xentrac: yeah, I think the arduino mega is getting more popular
04:50 PM Lambda_Aurigae: ok...it has lego compatible bottom too!
04:50 PM Lambda_Aurigae: still not worth 45 dollars.
04:50 PM xentrac: but I thought that was an atmega2560
04:50 PM polprog: what chip does ard mega use?
04:50 PM polprog: 2560?
04:50 PM Lambda_Aurigae: baseline arduino these days is the 328p from what I see.
04:51 PM polprog: thats uno
04:51 PM xentrac: yeah, that's the baseline arduino, including uno, leonardo, mini, micro
04:51 PM Lambda_Aurigae: that's the one everybody comes in here complaining about when they break it.
04:51 PM xentrac: yup
04:51 PM polprog: lol
04:51 PM Lambda_Aurigae: "I wanna program my arduino in assembly but can't change fuses..."
04:52 PM polprog: why do they come here, i remember just onr person who pulled out a 328, dont they have a channel for working ardus?
04:52 PM xentrac: the uno and leonardo also have a 32u2 (or maybe a 16u2?) but you don't normally reprogram it; it's just there to replace the FTDI chip
04:52 PM Emil: xentrac: what sim? Anycase glad you find them useful :D
04:52 PM Lambda_Aurigae: xentrac, that's what I use pic16f1454 chips for.
04:52 PM Emil: polprog: you can see all arduino schematics online
04:52 PM polprog: xentrac: the ftdi usb-uart conv?
04:53 PM Lambda_Aurigae: makes a nice little one component usb-serial interface.
04:53 PM xentrac: yeah
04:53 PM Lambda_Aurigae: no crystal needed...for stability a cap is recommended but never needed it myself.
04:53 PM xentrac: Emil: the JS one: http://is.gd/shittyflipflop
04:53 PM Emil: xentrac: 16u2 is used for the usb
04:53 PM Emil: oh you mean falstad
04:53 PM xentrac: Lambda_Aurigae: for low-speed USB, I imagine, not full-speed?
04:54 PM xentrac: yeah
04:54 PM Emil: yeah it's nice :3
04:54 PM Emil: xentrac: full speed is only 12MHz
04:54 PM polprog: why dont they use some that has usb builtin?
04:54 PM xentrac: that's the 16u2, Emil
04:54 PM xentrac: I mean polprog
04:55 PM xentrac: Emil, I know, the issue with full-speed is that the data rate tolerance is tighter and usually you can't meet it without a crystal
04:55 PM polprog: what does u2 mean, i dont remember mega16 having usb
04:55 PM Emil: xentrac: yeah I actually dont remember if they require a crystal/external clock foe it
04:55 PM xentrac: nope, the ATMega16 and ATMega168 and ATMega328 don't have USB
04:55 PM Emil: polprog: it is just the u series
04:55 PM polprog: ...
04:55 PM Lambda_Aurigae: https://hackaday.io/project/6258-two-component-usb-temperature-data-logger xentrac...I believe it does full speed USB.
04:56 PM polprog: i guess ll google it
04:56 PM Emil: Lambda_Aurigae: oh it does fullspeed
04:56 PM Emil: Lambda_Aurigae: but I dont remeber if without crystal
04:56 PM Lambda_Aurigae: that chip can do full speed usb without crystal as it has a pll that can be used to keep the clock in sync with the usb comms.
04:56 PM xentrac: wow, that's super awesome
04:56 PM Lambda_Aurigae: kinda like v-usb does with the attiny85 and no crystal.
04:57 PM xentrac: I didn't know vusb could do that with no crystal
04:57 PM xentrac: I thought it required a 12MHz crystal
04:57 PM xentrac: but it's been a few years since I looked
04:57 PM Tachyon` is now known as Tachgrr
04:57 PM Lambda_Aurigae: 12, 16, 20 mhz on most chips that can handle those speeds..
04:57 PM polprog: ok, so looks like u2 and u4 is some more beefy micro
04:57 PM Emil: Lambda_Aurigae:
04:57 PM Emil: For USB full-speed operation only external crystal oscillator or external source clock can be
04:57 PM Lambda_Aurigae: and it can do the clock sync with pll on the attiny85 and related chips.
04:57 PM Emil: used.
04:58 PM Emil: polprog: not more beefy
04:58 PM polprog: maybe i said that wrong, with the usb peripheral i mean
04:58 PM xentrac: Emil: what are you quoting?
04:58 PM Emil: polprog: just usb bolted on (probably bought ip instead of inhouse design given that the datasheet section is very bad foe usb)
04:59 PM Lambda_Aurigae: ok..time to go home...
04:59 PM polprog: bolted on meaning a peripherla added on die? hardware USB?
04:59 PM Emil: xentrac: http://www.avrfreaks.net/forum/atmega32u4-usb-problem-when-using-internal-rc-clock which apparently comes from the part 21.4 from the m32u4 datashit
05:00 PM Emil: polprog: bolted on meaning they had their existing design, bought the ip and just connected the wires to the databus
05:00 PM Emil: "bolted it on"
05:01 PM polprog: so hardware then.
05:01 PM Emil: it is on the die
05:01 PM Emil: yes
05:01 PM polprog: ok, thats what i asked :P
05:01 PM polprog: about*
05:01 PM Emil: where else would it be?
05:02 PM polprog: just wanted to make sure...
05:02 PM Emil: but where else would it be?
05:02 PM Emil: I need an answer to this :D
05:03 PM xentrac: in ROM maybe? like with VSUB
05:04 PM xentrac: VUSB
05:04 PM polprog: FT232RL's die bondwired onto the avr die /s
05:05 PM Lambda_Aurigae: superglued to the bottom of the chip!
05:05 PM Lambda_Aurigae: and,,,running now!
05:05 PM polprog: if i had a chip fab tools i would certainly do that
05:05 PM polprog: i wouldnt even bothet with smd, i would design my things on a single silicon wafer :D
05:06 PM polprog: s/bothet/bother/
05:06 PM xentrac: polprog: do you know about MOSIS and CMP?
05:06 PM polprog: xentrac: totallt no idea
05:07 PM polprog: im on mobile so my googling is slightly restrained
05:09 PM polprog: as you can see im non stop makong typos :/
05:10 PM polprog: oh, apparently thet make silicon chips
05:10 PM xentrac: polprog: if you design a chip in 0.35μm, CMP will ship you 25 bare dies of the chip for 650 euros per mm²
05:10 PM polprog: lol
05:10 PM xentrac: minimum is 3.43 mm²
05:11 PM polprog: thats nearly as expensive as adafruit!
05:11 PM Emil: xentrac: interestin
05:11 PM polprog: nice find
05:11 PM xentrac: so the minimum price for making a custom chip is about 2500 euros
05:11 PM xentrac: they supply you with design rule checks and standard cells
05:12 PM polprog: not sure if i will ever desing a chip in my life
05:12 PM Emil: that doesnr include wirebonding, though :D
05:12 PM xentrac: they're in France. a similar organization in the US is MOSIS, but their prices start a little higher last I checked
05:12 PM xentrac: no, but actually wirebonding doesn't cost that much extra IIRC
05:13 PM Emil: how many transistors can you fit on that?
05:13 PM xentrac: I'm not actually sure
05:13 PM xentrac: I think 0.35μm is the lambda of the process
05:13 PM xentrac: so wires and spaces between them are minimally twice that wide
05:14 PM xentrac: so I am guessing only about 3 million
05:14 PM Emil: per mm^2?
05:14 PM xentrac: no, for 3.43 mm²
05:14 PM xentrac: the minimal chip size
05:14 PM polprog: so thats around a million per mm2
05:15 PM xentrac: yeah, but that's my ignorant guess
05:15 PM Emil: and that's if you only need transistors and can fit them optimally
05:15 PM polprog: dont worry, we cant afford it anyways
05:15 PM Emil: it would fit some okay designs, thougg
05:15 PM polprog: what would you design of yoi could?
05:15 PM polprog: you*
05:16 PM Emil: some custom radio decoder
05:16 PM Emil: baseband
05:16 PM Emil: a transceiver
05:16 PM xentrac: polprog: do you live in a third-world country?
05:16 PM Emil: that would probably be the most useful and coolest thing with it
05:17 PM Emil: xentrac: is poland third world?
05:17 PM xentrac: no, second world
05:17 PM polprog: yes
05:17 PM Emil: hehe
05:17 PM polprog: heh
05:17 PM xentrac: Poland was 100% East-Bloc-aligned, no question about it
05:17 PM polprog: why the questuon tho?
05:17 PM polprog: arrgh. question*
05:18 PM xentrac: well, because almost everybody in Poland owns at least one thing that costs more than 2500 euros
05:18 PM Emil: that's an interesting assertion
05:18 PM polprog: sure, we do. but i dont feel like spending 2500 eur on 3mm2 of sillicon
05:18 PM Emil: wait, you do?
05:18 PM Emil: I dont :D
05:18 PM polprog: as a normal perso
05:19 PM xentrac: I mean spending that much money is a major life decision
05:19 PM polprog: as an uni, sure
05:19 PM xentrac: uni?
05:19 PM Emil: xentrac: what do you own that might cost more than 2.5k
05:19 PM xentrac: It's not quite as major as spending six months of your spare time fighting with EDA tools though
05:19 PM Emil: xentrac: cars and houses dont count
05:19 PM polprog: a university research group could get funding for that kind of a toy
05:19 PM xentrac: cars and houses definitely count
05:20 PM xentrac: becoming a Real Chip Designer would change the rest of your life more than having bought a car
05:20 PM polprog: sure
05:20 PM Emil: xentrac: well then pretty much everyone above the age of 30 owns a thing worth above 2.5k
05:20 PM xentrac: me? I do in fact live in a third-world country, and consequently the only thing I own that is worth that much is this laptop
05:20 PM Emil: xentrac: but if no cars and houses
05:20 PM polprog: xentrac: which country?
05:20 PM Emil: xentrac: what laptop?
05:21 PM polprog: somebody here was talking about scavenging electronic parts in brasil .
05:22 PM polprog: i dont remember who
05:22 PM Emil: polprog: that would be umm
05:22 PM Emil: a second
05:22 PM xentrac: actually it isn't worth that much any more :)
05:22 PM polprog: grepping logs i see emil
05:23 PM xentrac: but it's a 2.8GHz core i7 Lenovo with 16GB of RAM and a 1920x1080 screen
05:24 PM xentrac: probably worth less than 1000 Euros now
05:24 PM xentrac: polprog: Argentina
05:24 PM polprog: its a nice setup, probably yes
05:24 PM xentrac: I used to own cars and houses when I lived in the US
05:24 PM Emil: polprog: hmm, my logs didnt actually tell me
05:24 PM xentrac: occasionally more than one at a time!
05:24 PM Emil: brazil came up with notjing
05:25 PM xentrac: maybe it was me and you confused Argentina with Brazil?
05:25 PM polprog: let me grep then
05:25 PM Emil: but it did came up with
05:25 PM Emil: 2016-12-30 08:07:19 +0200< carabia> someone check pornhub and brazzers.
05:25 PM Emil: hehe
05:25 PM polprog: lol
05:25 PM xentrac: we do have a short border
05:25 PM polprog: xentrac: maybe it was you
05:25 PM Emil: xentrac: prolly
05:25 PM Emil: some city was mentioned
05:26 PM xentrac: I think I have a lot to learn before designing a chip
05:26 PM Emil: is carabia dead btw?
05:26 PM Emil: cehteh: Lambda_Aurigae Tom_itx and other old people
05:27 PM xentrac: so I'm not sure what is worth the trouble of fabricating a chip
05:28 PM Emil: protip: as long as you can find a reasonably costing alternarive
05:28 PM Emil: it is not worth it to get into the semiconductor business
05:28 PM Emil: though polsemi has a nice feel to it ;)
05:28 PM Emil: or esem
05:29 PM xentrac: polsemi?
05:29 PM polprog: hehe, grepping for "fuck" yielded 75 lines
05:29 PM Emil: or xesemi
05:29 PM Emil: polprog: only?
05:30 PM Emil: That's pretty weak
05:30 PM polprog: since i log
05:30 PM cehteh: what?
05:30 PM Emil: we must increase the count
05:30 PM Emil: cehteh: is carabia död?
05:30 PM xentrac: oh, the wirebonding/packaging cost is like 300 euros NRE plus like 70 or 80 euros per chip
05:30 PM cehteh: no idea
05:30 PM xentrac: from CMP
05:30 PM Emil: xentrac: too expensive :D
05:31 PM Emil: I could just pay some student in my uni to do it
05:31 PM xentrac: oh actually it's a little cheaper for DIPs
05:32 PM xentrac: like 40 euros per chip
05:32 PM polprog: https://hastebin.com/okiwalaloz.xml
05:33 PM xentrac: so for 3000 euros or something you could package several of your 25-chip batch and get the rest as naked dies for other forms of mounting
05:33 PM xentrac: I am still mystified about what polsemi and xesemi are
05:33 PM polprog: like bonding to bare pcb and blobbing it with plastic
05:33 PM polprog: china style
05:34 PM Emil: xentrac: you'll figure it out ;)
05:34 PM Emil: xentrac: context is key
05:34 PM polprog: look at the link
05:35 PM Emil: polprog: :DDDDDD
05:35 PM Emil: polprog: hehehehe
05:35 PM Emil: polprog: I feel like I have achieved something here
05:35 PM xentrac: I think I agree with almost all of those statements
05:35 PM Emil: lemme grep it roo
05:37 PM Emil: polprog: I like this one
05:37 PM Emil: 00:01 < Emil> fucking around takes too much effort
05:37 PM Emil: might even frame ir
05:37 PM Emil: and put it with the rest of the quotes about me :D
05:37 PM polprog: my fav is about the legacy code
05:37 PM polprog: we may even have a bash quote one day on this channel
05:37 PM Emil: polprog: :DDD
05:38 PM Emil: polprog: thanks for that paste
05:38 PM polprog: np :DDD
05:38 PM Emil: I'm quite enjoying it
05:38 PM Emil: 01:32 < Emil> who the fucking retard designed this protocol
05:38 PM polprog: lol
05:39 PM Tom_itx: seems to have a common theme
05:40 PM polprog: but as im looking thru the logs its mainly you emil, xen, lambda who speak the most, maybe then tom and me, and jartza
05:40 PM Tom_itx: used to be rue and me but i gave up and rue don't care anymore
05:40 PM polprog: yeah, i forgot about rue
05:41 PM Tom_itx: and rifraf but you don't know him
05:41 PM polprog: no, i provably sit here too short yet
05:42 PM Emil: polprog: https://emil.fi/jako/tekstit/fuck_avr.txt
05:42 PM polprog: but todays pcbs were a total fuckup. tomorrow, alcohol cleaning and retry
05:42 PM Emil: that's what I have on log
05:43 PM Emil: polprog: what did you try to make?
05:43 PM Lambda_Aurigae: Emil, as for carabia,,no clue and really don't care.
05:43 PM polprog: Emil, i could make a cronjob that grepa
05:43 PM Emil: Do you have the design?
05:43 PM Tom_itx: Lambda_Aurigae, Emil called us old
05:43 PM Emil: polprog: go ahead, would be pretty funny :D
05:43 PM polprog: yeah, basically t4313 and 3 585s + resistor poacs i dont have yet + 3 7-segs
05:44 PM Emil: polprog: share the design
05:44 PM Emil: polprog: I'll feedback
05:44 PM polprog: ill post it tomorrow, im on mobile and everybodys asleep
05:44 PM Emil: Tom_itx: I would make some joke about how young people speak satirically but I'm bad at jokes
05:44 PM Emil: s
05:45 PM Lambda_Aurigae: Tom_itx, I am old...I'll be 50 on Carl Sagan's birthday!
05:45 PM Emil: Lambda_Aurigae: daaamn, you old
05:46 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I said that on a gaming channel and nobody there knew who Carl Sagan was!
05:46 PM Emil: I'll send you a gift
05:46 PM Emil: Lambda_Aurigae: what was your address/shipping information again?
05:46 PM Tom_itx: i'll send you a walker
05:48 PM Emil: Lambda_Aurigae: matey
05:49 PM Lambda_Aurigae: Ray Moore 1729 marble rd, union, IA 50258
05:49 PM Emil: and 9.11. is quite far away, will you be able to keep your hands off of it?
05:51 PM Lambda_Aurigae: the world may never know.
05:51 PM Emil: eh, it'll be an early present
05:51 PM Lambda_Aurigae: someone once told me not to give out my real name and address on irc...my response to that was,,,"Why not? I need target practice."
05:52 PM Emil: in this age of information
05:53 PM Emil: if you know a name or a location it is prettt damn easy to find that information anyways
05:54 PM Tom_itx: i got a phone call from someone on irc while i was on vacation because i'd been gone too long
05:54 PM Lambda_Aurigae: hehe.
05:54 PM polprog: lol
05:54 PM Tom_itx: they didn't have my number either
05:55 PM polprog: is terribly easy to match info now
05:55 PM Tom_itx: not from me anyway
05:55 PM Emil: Tom_itx: damn
05:55 PM Emil: this channel?
05:56 PM polprog: did you know you can find the facebook profile if you have the original filename of the photo? and its probably in the exif too
05:56 PM Tom_itx: i'm not on facebook
05:56 PM polprog: good
05:57 PM polprog: i just use it for messenget, last time i posted something was a year ago :D
05:57 PM Tom_itx: like Lambda_Aurigae said, i'm not worried about it
05:59 PM polprog: ok, i thon ill say goidnight
05:59 PM polprog: goodnight then
05:59 PM xentrac: night
06:00 PM Emil: polprog: good night
06:03 PM Emil: I'll go, too
06:03 PM Emil: good night
06:04 PM Emil: Oh and btw
06:04 PM Emil: You might want to check the channel Ahoy on youtube
06:05 PM Emil: And the iconic arms series from him
09:31 PM Tachgrr is now known as Tachaway