#avr Logs
Apr 30 2017
#avr Calendar
12:28 AM daey_ is now known as daey
03:54 AM Emil: xentrac: floating is a relative term
03:55 AM Emil: Hi-Z state is floating it even though there is a limited resistance
03:56 AM Emil: polprog: and the pulldown mosfet size is proportional to the expected noise
03:57 AM Emil: I personally like 100k but 10k, which many use, just consumes more current when driven but provides a lot better noise immunity
03:58 AM Emil: Gate capacitance is real and going to >1MOhm can mean that your mosfet doesnt turn off as quickly as you think
03:59 AM Emil: if power usage is not an issue then 10k pulldowns are absolutely fine
04:00 AM Emil: ofc Vgs for n channels matters too
04:00 AM Emil: And Vgd for p channels
08:42 AM JustMondris: hello how can i scroll led matrix up and down?
08:43 AM Emil: JustMondris: with code
08:44 AM Emil: you calculate a new position for each led and update the matrix accordingly
08:48 AM JustMondris: u mean shifting them in byte?
08:48 AM JustMondris: this is my first time of doing it
08:49 AM Lambda_Aurigae: if you know how it is displayed, you just move all of the display data up or down one row.
08:49 AM Lambda_Aurigae: how you would do it all depends on how it is displayed.
08:49 AM JustMondris: the text only moves to left, and i want it to move up and down
08:50 AM JustMondris: do i need extral libray?
08:52 AM JustMondris: how it is displayed how?
08:53 AM JustMondris: pls what do u mean by how it is displayed/
08:53 AM JustMondris: ?
08:54 AM Lambda_Aurigae: first...what is the hardware?
08:54 AM Lambda_Aurigae: second...we need the software to see how the software displays the data on the hardware.
08:57 AM JustMondris: d hardware used are shift register 74hc595, 74hc138 decoder and the microcontroller
08:57 AM Lambda_Aurigae: that narrows it down,,,not.
08:57 AM Lambda_Aurigae: what about "a" and "b" hardware?
08:57 AM Lambda_Aurigae: not to mention "c"
08:58 AM Lambda_Aurigae: so,,,look at the code...figure out how it works...then modify it so that row 1 data gets moved to row 0, row 2 data gets moved to row 1, row 3 data gets moved to row 2,,,etc.
08:59 AM JustMondris: hmmm
09:00 AM JustMondris: i am very new to all this
09:00 AM Lambda_Aurigae: so the first thing to do is learn the code and how it works.
09:00 AM Lambda_Aurigae: second thing to do is quit using idiot cellphone texting shorthand on irc.
09:01 AM JustMondris: ok
09:01 AM JustMondris: what do u mean by "a" and "b" hardware?
09:01 AM Lambda_Aurigae: who is this "u" person?
09:02 AM Lambda_Aurigae: you said "d hardware.."
09:02 AM Lambda_Aurigae: what is "d" in that sentence?
09:02 AM JustMondris: sorry, d mean the
09:03 AM Lambda_Aurigae: d and the sound nothing alike to me.
09:03 AM Lambda_Aurigae: another idiot cellphone texting shorthand I guess.
09:04 AM JustMondris: u said what are the hardware used
09:04 AM Lambda_Aurigae: confusing. and useless unless you are paying for your internet by the byte.
09:04 AM JustMondris: and i said i used shift register 74hc595, 74hc138 decoder and microcontroller
09:04 AM JustMondris: ok
09:04 AM Lambda_Aurigae: u said nothing. there is nobody in here with the nickname "u"
09:04 AM JustMondris: sorry for that
09:06 AM Lambda_Aurigae: if you want someone to write the software for your hardware to make it scroll different directions we will need a full schematic at the very least.
09:06 AM Lambda_Aurigae: the original source code would help too.
09:06 AM JustMondris: i already have a libray that moves the text left, i want to manipulate it to move the text up and down
09:06 AM JustMondris: ok
09:06 AM Lambda_Aurigae: so, figure out how it works
09:06 AM Lambda_Aurigae: and modify it.
09:07 AM JustMondris: wait let me pastebin the original source code to u
09:07 AM Lambda_Aurigae: look at how it sends the data out. look at what pin what data goes to.
09:07 AM JustMondris: 8you
09:07 AM JustMondris: *you
09:11 AM Emil: JustMondris: if you want help here you will bend to our will
09:11 AM JustMondris: ok
09:12 AM Lambda_Aurigae: and I'm a bastard.
09:12 AM Tom_L: :O
09:12 AM Emil: JustMondris: so
09:13 AM Tom_L: txt lcd?
09:14 AM Tom_L: nm
09:14 AM JustMondris: Emil what will
09:14 AM JustMondris: ?
09:15 AM JustMondris: Tom_L i am using led matrix
09:16 AM Emil: JustMondris: link to us what you have bought
09:16 AM JustMondris: and i am very new to all this
09:16 AM Emil: we dont care
09:16 AM Tom_L: speak for yourself!
09:16 AM Tom_L: :D
09:16 AM Emil: we only care if you can communicate clearly
09:17 AM Emil: Tom_L: shhh
09:17 AM Tom_L: we eat noobs for breakfast
09:17 AM JustMondris: Emil the hardware part is working well
09:17 AM JustMondris: the text has been loaded
09:18 AM JustMondris: and it is displaying well
09:18 AM JustMondris: scrolling to left
09:18 AM Tom_L: i want it to spin
09:19 AM Tom_L: so how do you shift it in?
09:20 AM JustMondris: in bit
09:20 AM Emil: JustMondris: that doesnt answer our question
09:20 AM Emil: JustMondris: you answer what we ask
09:20 AM Tom_L: ras cas or what?
09:21 AM Tom_L: or binary stream to the whole thing or binary stream to each row or what
09:21 AM Emil: Tom_L: I bet it is one of the 8x8x4 led matrix boards
09:22 AM JustMondris: pls sorry i am not giving u the right answer
09:23 AM JustMondris: Tom_L i am using 8 X 7 led matrix board
09:23 AM JustMondris: Tom_L i am using 8X7 led matrix board
09:24 AM JustMondris: pls bear with me bcos i am very new to programming and microcontroller
09:25 AM Tom_L: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRibiL-MJRw
09:25 AM Tom_L: figure out how that works and you'll have it
09:25 AM JustMondris: ok
09:26 AM Tom_L: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMfcs0iO8zE
09:27 AM polprog: ive got a bit of a problem
09:27 AM polprog: i have a 15V power supply and i need to charge up a lead-acid battery
09:27 AM Tom_L: you must if you're haning out here
09:29 AM polprog: from what i've read out there, the gassing voltage is about 13.5 (12V nominal batt) so i'm trying not to exceed that.
09:29 AM Tom_L: JustMondris, this adds another dimenstion to the puzzle: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VgY6ReGDWg
09:29 AM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/misc_stuff/12v_supply1.jpg
09:29 AM Tom_L: polprog you need one of those
09:29 AM polprog: trying a constant voltage charge via a buck regulator i've set it to 13.5 and hooked up the battery, and the current went to 200mA. the battery is 1.3Ah, so the safe current is 130mA max
09:29 AM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/misc_stuff/12v_supply2.jpg
09:30 AM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/misc_stuff/12v_supply3.jpg
09:30 AM JustMondris: tom_L that video only shows the output of the work
09:30 AM polprog: Tom_L: i dont have one of those yet
09:30 AM Tom_L: 13.4v 45A
09:30 AM JustMondris: here is the libray i am working with, maybe it will answer all the questions: https://bpaste.net/show/e43d236b225a
09:30 AM JustMondris: pls check it
09:30 AM Tom_L: naw
09:30 AM JustMondris: and help me
09:30 AM Tom_L: i don't like libs
09:30 AM polprog: Tom_L: so you think i can use mine buck, set to 13.5V?
09:30 AM Tom_L: i like hand written code from noobs
09:31 AM JustMondris: Tom_L i am not a programmer
09:31 AM Tom_L: polprog, that one regulates to 13.4v so likely so
09:31 AM Tom_L: JustMondris but you want to program
09:31 AM polprog: Tom_L: i'm concerned about the current though. it's a tad too high
09:31 AM Tom_L: current limit it
09:32 AM polprog: my current limiter drops it to 11V at max
09:32 AM polprog: should i top up the buck converter?
09:32 AM JustMondris: Tom_L yes
09:33 AM Tom_L: JustMondris start with something simpler then instead of a library you don't understand
09:34 AM JustMondris: ok
09:34 AM Tom_L: looks like the led is memory mapped to the array
09:35 AM Tom_L: and i only got to line 16 of the code
09:36 AM xentrac: Emil: indeed
09:37 AM Tom_L: polprog, rue could tell you how to fix it
09:37 AM Tom_L: or blow it up
09:37 AM Tom_L: he's good at both
09:38 AM JustMondris: Tom-L : i need to understand how to manipulate line 132 to get what i want
09:39 AM Tom_L: why the hell they using c++ there anyway
09:40 AM Tom_L: line 147 explains line 132
09:41 AM Tom_L: too bad for you they don't have a shift ^^
09:42 AM * Tom_L thinks Lambda_Aurigae should invent it
09:43 AM JustMondris: hmm
09:43 AM Lambda_Aurigae: why? this is entertaining, watching you try to exolain simple logic to someone.
09:43 AM Tom_L: well i'm done with breakfast now so i'm done
09:44 AM JustMondris: so what do u want me do now?
09:44 AM Tom_L: follow your dreams
09:44 AM JustMondris: and how do i manipulate d movement?
09:45 AM Tom_L: 141 shifts the bits left by one
09:45 AM JustMondris: yes
09:45 AM JustMondris: i understood there
09:45 AM Tom_L: start by changing the << to >> and see what happens
09:46 AM polprog: Tom_L: i managed to charge up a 6V gel-acid
09:46 AM polprog: let's see what happens. i need to get a proper charger
09:46 AM polprog: :)
09:46 AM Lambda_Aurigae: ho do ppl dcd wt wds 2 shtn wn dy typ?
09:46 AM polprog: thanks
09:46 AM Tom_L: Lambda_Aurigae btfoom
09:46 AM JustMondris: Tom_L ok changing now
09:46 AM Tom_L: JustMondris, change them both
09:47 AM JustMondris: ok
09:47 AM Tom_L: ( this should be good )
09:47 AM Lambda_Aurigae: somehow I missed the link to the code.
09:47 AM Tom_L: https://bpaste.net/show/e43d236b225a
09:49 AM Tom_L: mmm, i see 3 now
09:49 AM Tom_L: probably need to change all 3 <<
09:50 AM Lambda_Aurigae: how does that even compile?
09:50 AM Tom_L: btfoom
09:50 AM Lambda_Aurigae: n595 is used before it is defined
09:50 AM Tom_L: compile it with a lookahead buffer
09:52 AM Tom_L: 2d array defined on the fly
09:53 AM Tom_L: Lambda_Aurigae, is the 595 a serial/parallel shift reg?
09:53 AM JustMondris: Tom_L i have changed the 3 of them
09:53 AM Tom_L: so what happened?
09:54 AM Lambda_Aurigae: 74HCT595 is an 8-bit serial-in/serial or parallel-out shift register with a storage register and 3-state outputs
09:54 AM * Lambda_Aurigae can google!
09:55 AM * Tom_L can ask Lambda_Aurigae
09:55 AM Tom_L: !
09:55 AM JustMondris: Tom_L need to refix something in the hardware part
09:55 AM JustMondris: something has removed
09:56 AM JustMondris: 10mins pls
09:56 AM Lambda_Aurigae: so, to shift up...you take that dram array and just move all the bytes by one location...like I said earlier.
09:57 AM Lambda_Aurigae: DRAM[0][0] = DRAM[1][0], DRAM[1][0] = DRAM[2][0] etc
09:58 AM Lambda_Aurigae: or do it with a loop and make it simpler.
09:58 AM Tom_L: i wasn't paying attention.. came in late and didn't feel like reading much
09:58 AM Lambda_Aurigae: have to do it with the DRAM[x][0] and DRAM[x][1] set at the same time.
09:59 AM Tom_L: pretty simple really
09:59 AM Lambda_Aurigae: why the hell that's done as a C++ class, however, is beyond m.
09:59 AM Lambda_Aurigae: me
09:59 AM Tom_L: i just asked that too
09:59 AM JustMondris: Tom_L when i did what u said, only the three leds in the first error were on
10:00 AM polprog: is there any reason to use OOP in micros?
10:00 AM Tom_L: wtf for?
10:00 AM polprog: exactly
10:01 AM Tom_L: JustMondris, so look at the code and see what it did and why
10:02 AM Tom_L: Lambda_Aurigae just gave you the answer
10:02 AM Tom_L: twice
10:02 AM Lambda_Aurigae: I mean, come on....a combination of public variables and a class? what the fuck? one way or the other people!
10:02 AM JustMondris: Lambda_Aurigae sorry which line no are u referring to?
10:03 AM Lambda_Aurigae: there is nobody here named U talking to you.
10:03 AM Tom_L: JustMondris rewrite it from scratch so you understand what it's doing
10:03 AM JustMondris: sorry ,you
10:03 AM JustMondris: Tom_L i have not gotten to that level yet
10:03 AM Lambda_Aurigae: and I did not refer to any line. I was giving you the information needed to do the shifting.
10:04 AM JustMondris: ok
10:04 AM Tom_L: i get it now. we're the code team!
10:04 AM Lambda_Aurigae: you want to shift the display data up. I am guessing that up is lower numbers in the display data.
10:04 AM Lambda_Aurigae: so
10:04 AM Lambda_Aurigae: DRAM[0][0] = DRAM[1][0], DRAM[1][0] = DRAM[2][0] etc
10:05 AM Lambda_Aurigae: you can do those as separate lines or do a loop,,or a couple of nested loops to do both entries in the array.
10:05 AM JustMondris: Tom_L i am a big noive
10:05 AM Lambda_Aurigae: just like the shift routine that is there already does nested loops.
10:05 AM JustMondris: *novice
10:05 AM Lambda_Aurigae: I suggest, first, learning C(or C++ if that is what you are going to work with)
10:05 AM xentrac: polprog: you can easily fit enough complexity in 32K to wish you were using OOP when you discover your code is too inflexible
10:05 AM Tom_L: if there were more than one 595 depending how they were configured you'd have to do something wiht DRAM[0][0] too
10:06 AM Lambda_Aurigae: if you want basic C class you can join the one I'm starting in June but it will require physical presence at my workshop.
10:06 AM * Tom_L invents a teleporter
10:07 AM Lambda_Aurigae: you will be classmate with three 12year old girls, one 14year old boy, and one 12year old boy.
10:08 AM Tom_L: awesome
10:08 AM Lambda_Aurigae: this year we are building a chess playing gantry robot.
10:08 AM Tom_L: just don't polute them
10:08 AM Lambda_Aurigae: of course not. No C++
10:08 AM Lambda_Aurigae: no windows
10:08 AM Lambda_Aurigae: we will be doing pic32 though.
10:09 AM Lambda_Aurigae: I have a chess algorithm that was used on c-64 back in the day..it's not great but it can play.
10:11 AM Lambda_Aurigae: the processor we will be running it on is 100 times faster with 4 times the program space so should be usable.
10:13 AM JustMondris: Lambda_Aurigae thanks for your help but in still dont understand how to do what you wantt me to do
10:13 AM Lambda_Aurigae: JustMondris, then learn basic C programming
10:13 AM Lambda_Aurigae: after that I can help you.
10:13 AM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/avr/c_bits/bits_index.php
10:14 AM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/how_to/atmega168/mega168_howto_main_index.php
10:15 AM JustMondris: ok
10:15 AM Lambda_Aurigae: if you want me to write the code for you then it will cost money.
10:15 AM JustMondris: hmmm
10:15 AM JustMondris: i am from nigeria and i do not have money
10:16 AM Tom_L: give a man a fish.... teach a man to fish
10:16 AM Lambda_Aurigae: I charge 150 dollars per hour, minimum 2 ours.
10:16 AM Lambda_Aurigae: build a man a fire and he will stay warm till the fire goes out. set a man on fire and he will stay warm the rest of his life.
10:17 AM Lambda_Aurigae: hey..I get emails from people from nigeria all the time. They have LOTS of money. Millions of dollars they want to give to me.
10:17 AM JustMondris: Lambda_Aurigae 300usd is almost 100,000 naira in nigeria
10:17 AM JustMondris: Lambda_Aurigae lolol those are scammers
10:18 AM Tom_L: JustMondris, you have a µC and internet. you have _some_ money
10:19 AM Tom_L: anyway, it's best to learn instead of having someone fix your problems
10:19 AM polprog: ^^
10:19 AM Lambda_Aurigae: find a book on C like "The C Programming Language".....READ IT....go through all of the exercises...
10:20 AM Lambda_Aurigae: you can use any of a dozen C compilers on half a dozen different operating systems to do said exercises.
10:20 AM JustMondris: i just did a mobile subcription of $ 3.27 for 1.5GB just to find answers to this problemm
10:21 AM polprog: it literally takes nothing but time to learn C
10:21 AM JustMondris: i know
10:21 AM Lambda_Aurigae: http://alvand.basu.ac.ir/~dezfoulian/files/Programming/Prentice%20Hall%20-%20The%20C%20Programming%20Language-%20Brian%20W.%20Kernighan,%20Dennis%20M.%20Ritchie,%202nd%20ed.,%20ISBN%20.pdf
10:21 AM JustMondris: but i need to submit this on monday
10:21 AM JustMondris: that is the challenge
10:21 AM Lambda_Aurigae: oh, so this is homework?
10:21 AM Tom_L: homework!
10:21 AM JustMondris: not home work
10:21 AM polprog: the answer is you dont have enough knowledge
10:21 AM JustMondris: something like a project
10:21 AM polprog: fin
10:21 AM JustMondris: yeah
10:21 AM JustMondris: that is true
10:22 AM JustMondris: i am learning micro controllers in a place
10:22 AM Lambda_Aurigae: if it is for school then I would complain that they didn't prepare you for the exercise properly.
10:22 AM JustMondris: but they didnt teach us much
10:22 AM Lambda_Aurigae: if it is for work,,,you are in the wrong line of work.
10:22 AM JustMondris: especially the c programming aspect
10:22 AM Lambda_Aurigae: maybe knowledge of C programming was a required prerequisite?
10:22 AM polprog: Lambda_Aurigae: lol, is that Richie's book, for free? tyvm
10:22 AM JustMondris: no
10:23 AM Lambda_Aurigae: I have that book, first printing, signed by Richie himself.
10:23 AM Tom_L: rev 2 pdf is on my site
10:23 AM Tom_L: good luck finding it
10:23 AM JustMondris: it is a training
10:23 AM Lambda_Aurigae: it is awesome for training.
10:23 AM Lambda_Aurigae: I use it as a teaching aid for 12 to 18 year old kisd.
10:23 AM Lambda_Aurigae: kids
10:24 AM JustMondris: is there no video tutorial to watch to be able to do the stuff i want?
10:24 AM Lambda_Aurigae: fuck that!
10:24 AM Lambda_Aurigae: learn to READ!
10:24 AM Lambda_Aurigae: then
10:24 AM Lambda_Aurigae: READ!
10:24 AM JustMondris: ok
10:24 AM Lambda_Aurigae: video is to show off what you did with your knowledge.
10:24 AM Tom_L: i have no deadlines, just death itself
10:24 AM xentrac: video is for persuading people
10:25 AM Lambda_Aurigae: I have dyslexics complain that they can't read
10:25 AM Lambda_Aurigae: guess what? they can.
10:25 AM Lambda_Aurigae: I'm dyslexic. I'm also borderline autistic.
10:25 AM polprog: Tom_L: may i PM? :v
10:25 AM Lambda_Aurigae: I'm also left handed and a royal bastard.
10:25 AM JustMondris: that means reading books to learn programming is better than watching videos
10:25 AM JustMondris: ?
10:25 AM JustMondris: programming video?
10:26 AM JustMondris: course?
10:26 AM Lambda_Aurigae: I've never seen a programming video that's worth a damn.
10:26 AM Lambda_Aurigae: at least, not to me.
10:26 AM JustMondris: so books are better
10:26 AM xentrac: yes, reading books to learn programming is better than watching videos
10:26 AM JustMondris: noted
10:26 AM Lambda_Aurigae: what can be said in an hour video I can read in 10 minutes.
10:26 AM polprog: especially unity3d videos. an hour to code two tanks on a plane
10:26 AM JustMondris: ok
10:28 AM JustMondris: ok
10:28 AM JustMondris: thanks all
10:28 AM polprog: Tom_L: found it :P
10:32 AM Lambda_Aurigae: https://www.diodes.com/assets/App-Note-Files/AN041-P.pdf awesome appnote on LVDS
10:32 AM Lambda_Aurigae: I never considered an LVDS receiver is just a differential opamp
10:35 AM xentrac: JustMondris: best of luck! sorry people were obnoxious to you
10:35 AM polprog: Lambda_Aurigae: nice appnote :) interestinng
10:35 AM JustMondris: xentrac i understand. i need certain degree of knowledge to be able to get help in irc channels
10:36 AM polprog: not really
10:36 AM xentrac: opamps apparently have to deal with a lot of issues comparators don't
10:36 AM polprog: you just need to know how to ask questions :)
10:36 AM xentrac: well, reading also helps a lot
10:37 AM xentrac: I don't mean knowing how to read, but spending the time to read
10:37 AM JustMondris: ok
10:37 AM polprog: wise words
10:38 AM JustMondris: thanks alot
10:38 AM polprog: JustMondris: best luck
10:39 AM xentrac: don't pay attention to things like "you're in the wrong line of work" --- anybody can learn this stuff, it just takes effort
10:40 AM JustMondris: ok
10:40 AM JustMondris: thanks
10:41 AM xentrac: Lambda_Aurigae, polprog: there's a good section on LVDS in the third edition of Horowitz and Hill
10:41 AM xentrac: it's also better written
10:41 AM Lambda_Aurigae: usually is.
10:41 AM Lambda_Aurigae: but, now, with an avr and an lm741 I can do lvds!
10:42 AM Lambda_Aurigae: I never really looked into it before.
10:42 AM Lambda_Aurigae: just testing the theory now.
10:43 AM xentrac: AVRs also have analog comparators; you don't need the LM741
10:44 AM Lambda_Aurigae: yes, true.
10:44 AM Lambda_Aurigae: hmmm.
10:44 AM xentrac: however, if none of your signals are faster than 20MHz you probably don't need LVDS
10:44 AM xentrac: and if they're faster, you probably need something that isn't an AVR
10:44 AM Lambda_Aurigae: I'm thinking for long range wired comms.
10:44 AM Lambda_Aurigae: like, over existing phone line.
10:44 AM xentrac: yeah, maybe.
10:44 AM polprog: Lambda_Aurigae: this guy made an interesting video on generating LVDS signalling from an FPGA.
10:44 AM polprog: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIR1Bw8T_vM&list=PL0KZLmPyL6Ak1bArDuLo77yhx95yMsjHL&index=4
10:45 AM polprog: i learned so much from that channel ;)
10:45 AM Lambda_Aurigae: more for noise immunity than for high speed.
10:45 AM xentrac: in that case you are probably going to want galvanic isolation to avoid ground loops
10:46 AM xentrac: this is also covered in Horowitz & Hill :)
10:46 AM Lambda_Aurigae: polprog, how can one learn from that? I can't...it's annoying at best..
10:46 AM Lambda_Aurigae: watching the guy draw out a schematic?
10:46 AM Lambda_Aurigae: listening to him drone on?
10:46 AM Lambda_Aurigae: oh glub..
10:46 AM xentrac: "ground loops" sound innocent but in fact they are devastatingly destructive
10:47 AM Lambda_Aurigae: xentrac, course they are...both in electronics and aircraft.
10:47 AM xentrac: just thought I'd mention it in case you were actually planning to connect an LM741 to a phone line :)
10:48 AM Lambda_Aurigae: well, not to a hot phone line.
10:48 AM xentrac: not a long one either, I hope
10:48 AM Lambda_Aurigae: but I've worked in locations that had phone line through buildings that was unused that would be awesome for alternative data connections for security and such.
10:49 AM xentrac: yeah, you probably want galvanic isolation once you're getting to "through buildings"
10:49 AM Lambda_Aurigae: hehe.
10:49 AM Lambda_Aurigae: yeah.
10:49 AM Lambda_Aurigae: one of the reasons ethernet uses those isolation transformers.
10:51 AM xentrac: right, that's a good example
10:51 AM Lambda_Aurigae: more of an interesting thing to add to my hobby list than anything right now.
10:51 AM Lambda_Aurigae: current project is design and build of a buck converter for a wind turbine I'm building.
10:52 AM xentrac: how is that going?
10:52 AM Lambda_Aurigae: power supplies have always been black magic to me so I'm in learning phase.
10:52 AM xentrac: there are off-the-shelf buck-converter chips FWIW
10:52 AM Lambda_Aurigae: need to hook the motor/generator up to a spinny source and see what it can put out under load.
10:52 AM Lambda_Aurigae: yes, there are.
10:52 AM Lambda_Aurigae: and I have several.
10:53 AM Lambda_Aurigae: I also have a nema42 size 3 phase 410V 90W permanent magnet motor I want to use as the generator.
10:54 AM Lambda_Aurigae: I can get upwards of 15V out of it unloaded just by spinning it with my fingers.
10:54 AM Lambda_Aurigae: so, gotta build a 3 phase load and test bed for it.
10:55 AM xentrac: so you said
10:55 AM Lambda_Aurigae: it's a weird 3-phase motor too...all the pases are connected in series...round robin style...no center tap style.
10:55 AM Lambda_Aurigae: wondering if it might not be best to open it up and separate them.
10:55 AM Lambda_Aurigae: but gonna try it without that first.
10:56 AM xentrac: that's normal for BLDC motors
10:56 AM xentrac: polprog: is that Jeri Ellsworth in the video after Dave Jones?
10:56 AM polprog: xentrac: i dont know whos Jeri
10:58 AM xentrac: the C-One designer
10:58 AM polprog: generally this guy can sometimes mumble you to death and his camera makes you seasick, but i like that channel
10:58 AM polprog: xentrac: i have no idea what's C-one , let me google that
10:58 AM polprog: :D
11:00 AM polprog: looks like it's her
11:41 AM xentrac: Lambda_Aurigae: you will probably appreciate watching https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8rK9gU30v4
11:42 AM xentrac: there are about 15 seconds of wasted time in the video, but none of this bullshit of watching somebody blather at the camera and watching them slowly draw crude schematics
11:44 AM xentrac: instead it shows things like oscilloscope traces varying as he turns a potentiometer and completed neat schematics (for a couple of seconds)
11:45 AM xentrac: and circuit fabrication techniques
11:45 AM xentrac: it's specifically about buck converters
11:47 AM polprog: that's quite interesitng. Great scott makes videos specifically on a single topic, good editing, not borin- which is like real youtubers do
11:47 AM polprog: and that channel i linked is more like personal video notes of that guy
11:50 AM xentrac: yeah, and there's a minimal amount of the standard "real youtuber" bullshit
11:51 AM xentrac: theme songs, "don't forget to subscribe", contests, and whatnot
11:51 AM xentrac: the buck/boost video uses an ATTiny85 instead of an Arduino: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiD_X-uo_TQ
11:52 AM polprog: `the lack of youtuber BS is nice there
11:52 AM polprog: but i'm not sure why would you be taking your time to program an attiny instead of buying a normal buck converter IC
11:55 AM xentrac: well, it's not totally lacking, but only a few seconds are wasted on it
11:56 AM polprog: actually ive leart about a nice DC-DC conv chip
11:56 AM polprog: https://www.altera.com/products/power/devices/powersoc-dc-dc-step-down-converters/en23f2qi.html
11:56 AM xentrac: as it happens I already have a bunch of ATTinies ;)
11:56 AM polprog: it has integrated inductor
11:57 AM polprog: i need to try that
11:58 AM xentrac: "integrated inductor"?
11:59 AM polprog: that's what they say
11:59 AM xentrac: they do, but I don't think I've ever seen an integrated inductor
11:59 AM xentrac: the datasheet link is missing
11:59 AM polprog: i don't know much about that topic (and i'm keen on learning that) but i can't see an inductor anywhere there
12:00 PM polprog: but that doesnt matter becuase i cant easily get them, and it's some very fine pitched leadless SMD, so no way i could make use of that
12:02 PM Emil: polprog: if you want to charge a 12V lead acid battery you start at 14V
12:02 PM Emil: usually
12:03 PM polprog: looks like i _need_ to get a regulated 30V lab psu
12:03 PM polprog: my bloody current limiter drops enough voltage to succesfully make 11V on the output with what i have
12:04 PM Emil: Look at this on eBay http://www.ebay.com/itm/391767540072
12:04 PM polprog: i could try something different, the psu has +15 and -15 output, i'm not sure if i can make 30V outta that or will it break the PSU
12:05 PM polprog: Emil: eek, i cant even read the label
12:05 PM Emil: polprog: seriously lead acid batteries are hardy af
12:05 PM polprog: but they are cheap
12:05 PM Emil: yes
12:05 PM polprog: i have some li-ions though, im studying datasheets of buck-boost converter chips
12:05 PM Emil: hardy (meaning they dont break) and cheapish
12:06 PM polprog: oh. i thought you meant hardy like hard to use :P
12:06 PM Emil: lolno
12:06 PM polprog: what about the gassing voltage? and undercharge?
12:07 PM xentrac: yeah, the issue with lead-acid batteries is not that you are going to break the battery, usually
12:07 PM xentrac: it's that you are going to blow up your house
12:07 PM xentrac: my dad was working on a solar energy project at a national lab that ended in a hydrogen detonation
12:08 PM Emil: https://goo.gl/photos/nFMUA8n1kXxtefsj9
12:08 PM Emil: xentrac: lol
12:08 PM xentrac: from lead-acid batteries emitting hydrogen
12:08 PM Emil: how can you even achieve that :D
12:08 PM polprog: well, that's an achievement
12:08 PM Emil: I mean, that's SEVERE disregard for anything reasonable :D
12:08 PM xentrac: if you have a lot of lead-acid batteries in a building and your charging circuit doesn't work properly
12:09 PM Emil: polprog: undercharge?
12:09 PM polprog: something something april '86
12:09 PM polprog: Emil: isn't the battery useless when you go down a certain level? somethig about lead compound crystalizing and whatnot. i don't really remember
12:10 PM Emil: yeah but that's "hard" to achieve
12:11 PM polprog: not really, i trashed one today because it was 2V instead of nominal 6V
12:11 PM Emil: and you can just use a comparator to cut the battery off once it goes below x volts
12:11 PM Emil: polprog: it's probably still saveable
12:11 PM polprog: really?
12:11 PM polprog: i need to read on that
12:11 PM Emil: probably yeah
12:11 PM polprog: and i need to make some comparators then...
12:11 PM Emil: just put it on 7V
12:12 PM polprog: 7V, just like that? no current limiting? even a resistor?
12:12 PM Emil: if you gassed it, replace the watee
12:12 PM Emil: polprog: sure add one
12:12 PM polprog: it's sealed. unlike the car ones
12:13 PM polprog: ok, ill put a 100R resistor and set my chinesium buck to 7V
12:13 PM polprog: let's see what happens
12:13 PM Emil: then it'll prolly work
12:13 PM Emil: lol 100R wtf
12:13 PM Emil: 10 Ohm max
12:14 PM polprog: i have no idea, ive never done that before
12:20 PM polprog: how much should it be there? i've put a meter across it but it keeps showung 6V instead of the batt voltage
12:20 PM polprog: should i measure the current?
12:37 PM polprog: the voltage doesnt change, and the current is at 0.8mA
12:37 PM Emil: give it 10 hours
12:37 PM polprog: ok
12:38 PM polprog: thanks
12:39 PM Emil: it might not work, it might only revive it somewhat or it might work
12:40 PM polprog: i have a couple more batteries, no hard feelings
12:43 PM ambro718: Hi, I have a compile error with _SFR_IO_ADDR and gcc 6.3.0: error: reinterpret_cast from integer to pointer: static const uint32_t port_io_addr = _SFR_IO_ADDR(PORTA);
12:45 PM Emil: >uint32_t
12:45 PM Emil: wtf
12:45 PM ambro718: I need to get it into an integer so it can be passed as a c++ template parameter. It worked with gcc 5
12:45 PM Emil: oh yeah if bigger chip, but they go through special instructions iirc
12:46 PM ambro718: ah you mean the size, it doesn't matter as long as its big enough
12:46 PM Chillum: that is what she said
12:47 PM Emil: ambro718: but still
12:47 PM Emil: dat uint32_t
12:47 PM Emil: wtf why
12:48 PM twnqx: because it's the least efficient possible on an 8bit machine
12:48 PM twnqx: also larger than int
12:48 PM ambro718: it doesn't matter because it is resolved at compile time
12:48 PM Emil: it does matteeer
12:51 PM polprog: ambro718: how do you think it's resolved? the compiler won't change that
12:51 PM polprog: it will still be handling 32 bit ints
12:53 PM ambro718: polprog: passed to inline assm as "i" parameter (constant)
12:53 PM twnqx: anyway, isn't PORTA already the IO address, and _SFR_IO_ADDR the macro to expand it to an accessible io port?
12:53 PM ambro718: asm("sbi %0,%1\n" :: "i" (IoAddr), "i" (Bit)); <-- IoAddr is this address
12:54 PM ambro718: PORTA is supposed to be (*(volatile uint8_t *)(<address>) so you can do PORTA=1; x=PORTA;
12:54 PM twnqx: ah
12:54 PM twnqx: ok
12:54 PM ambro718: _SFR_IO_ADDR(PORTA) is supposed to recover the address (actually the IO relative address to be used with sbi etc)
01:56 PM polprog: damnit
01:56 PM polprog: i cant solve an excercise in the art of electronics :?
01:56 PM polprog: :/
01:58 PM polprog: can you help me? i can post the schematic
02:07 PM Chillum: don't ask to ask, just ask
02:08 PM polprog: let me finish drawing th stuff ;)
02:10 PM specing: polprog is violating IRC etiquette! Very sad!
02:11 PM Chillum: isn't criticizing the newbs also against IRC etiquette?? ;)
02:13 PM polprog: excuse me, i'm on irc for 2 years now :o
02:13 PM polprog: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7nrducTAtMTQzItUnRtbUp2X3M/view?usp=sharing
02:13 PM Chillum: oh, then criticize away
02:22 PM specing: Chillum: polprog is not a newbie
02:22 PM specing: so yeah, I've got the pitchforks
02:22 PM specing: and I've got the torches and we can go burn polprog at the stake
02:23 PM polprog: and i feel bad because i cant solve the excercise
02:28 PM Lambda_Aurigae: if I wanted to do homework I would go back to school.
02:30 PM polprog: it's not homework
02:31 PM polprog: i'm not even in a tehnical school
02:31 PM polprog: i'm trying to understand opamps
02:31 PM Lambda_Aurigae: voltage in, voltage out, amplified
02:32 PM polprog: that i know - but that circuit i posted, i cant get one thing
02:33 PM Lambda_Aurigae: build it and see what it does.
02:37 PM polprog: i made it in falstad simulator, and it works.. kindof
02:37 PM polprog: what i want to do is to be able to write an equation that tells me how the particular values are related to each other
02:38 PM Lambda_Aurigae: math and hacker electronics don't mix..
02:39 PM polprog: whatever. it looks like trickery rather than a useful thing
02:39 PM Lambda_Aurigae: someone else with an education in electronics will have to help you.
02:39 PM polprog: oh
02:39 PM polprog: heh, ok, np
02:42 PM Lambda_Aurigae: my electronics education consists of reading Forrest M. Mims III "Getting Started In Electonics" and his Engineers mini notebooks.
02:42 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I don't remember none of them equations from the opamp mini notebook.
02:43 PM polprog: from the intro to the art of electronics the guys said that you can skip the maths in the book and still get everything
02:44 PM polprog: so im thinking about giving up, leaving that for uni/whatever
02:44 PM polprog: and just going by examples + simulators
02:48 PM LeoNerd: Random thoughts: I'm using an ATtiny84. The GPIO pin that SCK happens to live on, I have as a gate controller for an nFET, so it has a 10k pulldown. Is that pulldown going to get in the way of ISP?
02:49 PM LeoNerd: Hopefully would be OK, but just wondering
02:49 PM polprog: should not be a problem
02:49 PM polprog: the only time i had problems with isp was a clamping diode on the SCK line
02:50 PM LeoNerd: It would technically be firing the FET when programming, but that won't matter here because the FET is just an LED driver, and the other end of the LED wouldn't be connected if the chip was being programmed
02:52 PM polprog: http://51.254.212.106/papiery/atmel-2521-avr-hardware-design-considerations_applicationnote_avr042.pdf
02:52 PM polprog: there's a nice chapter on sharing ISP lines
02:56 PM LeoNerd: Hrm, the bit about multiple AVR processors sharing SPI lines is a bit weird
02:56 PM LeoNerd: The way I have it, is that both of my chips are SPI linked anyway, so the MISO/MOSI/SCK are common, but each ISP6 header has its own reset pin
02:57 PM polprog: that sould work as long as there are those resistors
02:57 PM polprog: i have never done that but i believe atmel knows their stuff
02:57 PM LeoNerd: I suspect the reason they say to do that, is that you'd link all the RESET lines together, so that if any chip was being programmed, the others are all shut down
02:58 PM LeoNerd: So no one chip gets confused if the others stop listening
02:58 PM polprog: i believe that could cause two hips to think they are programmed actually
02:59 PM polprog: [s] use sockets instead [/s]
02:59 PM LeoNerd: WEll that's why the appnote says to give each its own clock line
02:59 PM polprog: oh
02:59 PM LeoNerd: Except I couldnt' do that because the two SCK pins have to be connected
02:59 PM polprog: that skipped my mind
02:59 PM LeoNerd: So I do it by independent RESET
03:00 PM LeoNerd: Slightly tricky in my case, because while one chip is being programmed, the other is still live and running, but it's OK because the slave (obviously) doesn't drive the lines, and the master won't talk to the slave unless the slave sent an interrupt, which it won't do while in ISP mode. So it turns out OK in practice
03:01 PM LeoNerd: I guess if that wasn't possible, you'd have to have some sort of SCK disconnect..
03:01 PM LeoNerd: Oooh.. maybe a 1G66 to link the SCK pins together, controlled by the RESET bus. That would be nice
03:01 PM LeoNerd: Damn I should have thought of that :/
03:01 PM LeoNerd: (or a 1G126)
03:02 PM polprog: heh, that 1g66 looks cool
03:02 PM LeoNerd: It's a single-gate 4066
03:02 PM LeoNerd: I'm starting to really like these 1G chips.. so handy for little fixes
03:02 PM LeoNerd: E.g. that 1G125 is great for adding a hiZ state to the "serial out" pin of a chip you want to talk SPI to, but it doesn't hiZ its output normally when deselected
03:03 PM LeoNerd: 1G66 is great for MUXing the SDA line of an I²C bus, because it's just an analog switch, so nicely bidirectional
03:03 PM LeoNerd: (I have a 'tiny84 switching between SPI and I²C master using one of those)
03:06 PM polprog: is there a list somewhere like the 74xx has?
03:08 PM LeoNerd: Not aware of.. they're mostly manufacturer specials.. Texas make most of them
03:08 PM LeoNerd: Usually if there's a 74-series chip with multiple gates, one of whose gates has at most 3 pins, you can usually find a 1G variant somewhere
03:12 PM polprog: oh i can play nethack on my scope, how cool is that
03:12 PM polprog: http://hackaday.com/2017/04/27/help-wanted-open-source-oscilloscope-on-rigol-hardware/
03:13 PM polprog: kek, maybe they will make uart decoder suck less
03:15 PM Emil: Chillum: critizing the neewbies is exactly according to the irc standard
03:15 PM Chillum: ahhh, old skool rules
03:15 PM Emil: at least in the birthcountry of irc
03:15 PM Chillum: mercy for newbies is a relatively new idea
03:16 PM Emil: LeoNerd: and pulldowns dont matter as long as they dont overpower your drive lines
03:17 PM Emil: Chillum: hehe
03:17 PM Lambda_Aurigae: mercy
03:17 PM Lambda_Aurigae: bah
03:18 PM Chillum: I remember early 90s newbs were play things for the elite
03:18 PM Emil: everyone should lend a bit of understanding and compassion towards others but those wishing for help shouldnt rely on that ;)
03:18 PM Lambda_Aurigae: "I want to drive a car but it doesn't have an engine. Can you tell me how to build one?"
03:18 PM Emil: hehe
03:20 PM Emil: LeoNerd: so as long as the current consumption isnt too much and anything else attempting to drive the lines happens through weak enough resistors, you can place pretty much anything on the isp lines
03:21 PM Emil: LeoNerd: that's a simple thing, I thought you knew your shit :o
03:21 PM Emil: Adjusting user matrix relation parameters to compensate for fresh information, done at 0%
03:22 PM Emil: Task completed at 100% with neural links updating over time, forcing iir state not applied
03:23 PM * Lambda_Aurigae reboots Emil with a cattle prod
03:26 PM Emil: Also guys reddit
03:26 PM Lambda_Aurigae: what about it?
03:26 PM Emil: reddit.com/r/hfy
03:26 PM Emil: and sidebar has a link to recommended/classics or just sort by top
03:27 PM Emil: There's book (and larger) stories there
03:27 PM Emil: +size
03:53 PM LeoNerd: Emil: Oh I imagined it would be OK, was just curious to hear others' experiences
03:59 PM Emil: hmmmmmm
03:59 PM Emil: Are you sure you are LeoNerd
04:01 PM Emil: Fucking chinaman
04:01 PM Emil: I made 5 separate purchaes on god damn purpose
04:02 PM Emil: Now you fucking put them on the same fucking package
04:02 PM Emil: And now it's stuck in customs god fucking damn it
04:04 PM Tom_L: aww
04:05 PM Tom_L: order on separate days
04:05 PM Tom_L: or cuss customs
04:09 PM Emil: Yeah I'll try to first talk to the customs
04:09 PM polprog: ali i see , heh
04:09 PM Emil: and at the same time issue a refund request
04:10 PM Emil: and if it doesnt work, chargeback and burn the thing
04:10 PM Emil: Tom_L: learned my fucking lesson here T.T
04:10 PM polprog: Tom_L: i found the book on your site, i don't know if you know this
04:11 PM Tom_L: it's fine
04:12 PM polprog: i just saw that as a challenge ;)
04:12 PM Tom_L: not too big a challenge really
04:12 PM Tom_L: most of my folders are visible
04:13 PM polprog: but i like the idea of putting the docs online
04:13 PM polprog: i put some on mine, hidden folder
04:13 PM Tom_L: it's an obscure server anyway
04:13 PM polprog: mine is not big, but it's mine
04:14 PM Tom_L: if i hid them i'd never find em again :D
04:14 PM Tom_L: so is mine
04:14 PM Tom_L: some old old pc somebody gave me
04:14 PM polprog: what do you mean not find? no access to the shell?
04:15 PM Tom_L: oh i could if i tried but i'm lazy when it comes to that
04:16 PM polprog: i had a pi running irssi back then, but now, i just got vps, no need to open ports
04:19 PM polprog: and the good part of having a screen session is that you can play nethack in the 2nd window, useful at school :D
04:19 PM Tom_L: mine is headless
04:19 PM polprog: mine too
04:19 PM Tom_L: generally access it via putty on windows
04:22 PM polprog: putty is cool but i prefer teraterm personally
04:23 PM Tom_L: i'm not on it enough to care
04:34 PM xentrac: polprog: how does teraterm compare to gnome-terminal and the derivatives?
04:37 PM Emil: Hyvää Wappua!
04:40 PM polprog: xentrac: teraterm is a windows program
04:40 PM xentrac: I know that
04:40 PM polprog: it's more flexible,
04:41 PM polprog: you can directly ssh (with keys), telnet,
04:41 PM polprog: you can use the COM ports
04:41 PM * Tom_L isn't as flexible as he used to be either
04:41 PM xentrac: hmm, I think you can do all of those things with gnome-terminal
04:41 PM polprog: but overall the same things you can do with linux :D
04:41 PM polprog: you have telnet/ssh/serial console
04:42 PM polprog: i use teraterm in windows becuase i just install one program and have all the connectivity of my linux sys
04:42 PM Emil: polprog: puttyontray
04:42 PM Emil: superior
04:50 PM xentrac: well, I figured you were talking about teraterm's terminal emulation, rather than where it can connect to
04:51 PM xentrac: since I figure that connecting to a COM port isn't very complicated
04:59 PM polprog: honesty as long as you dont use hyperterminal its ok
05:00 PM polprog: for linux i like just screen for talking on com ports
05:11 PM xentrac: screen definitely works, but it provides terminal emulation on top of an existing terminal emulator
05:11 PM xentrac: (which sounds stupid but actually turns out to be useful)
05:26 PM polprog: its extremely useful
05:26 PM polprog: there was also that tty window manager but i never got it running
05:27 PM polprog: a floating window manager, not talking about tmux
07:01 PM Emil: Hmm
07:01 PM Emil: Anyone know if I can just push values into ws2812bs?
07:02 PM Emil: They are shift register based, right?
08:52 PM LeoNerd: Emil: Hrm? It's not quite a shift register... the first value you write goes into the *first* LED, not the final one
08:52 PM LeoNerd: A WS2812 latches the first 24 bits it receives, and emits the rest afterwards
09:06 PM rue_shop3: it dosn't just use the last 24 bits shifted in before the latch signal?
09:12 PM Tom_L: i wonder if you can pair a mouse with more than one usb dongle at one time
09:13 PM Lambda_Aurigae: not normally
09:13 PM Lambda_Aurigae: however
09:13 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I've had some older logitech gear do it.
09:13 PM Lambda_Aurigae: mouse and keyboard both.
09:14 PM Tom_L: would be handy sometimes
09:14 PM Lambda_Aurigae: caused hell in a small office with 8 programmers
09:14 PM Tom_L: heh
09:14 PM Lambda_Aurigae: replace batteries and have to reconnect the keyboard
09:14 PM Lambda_Aurigae: suddenly it's on the same channel as someone else.
09:17 PM Tom_L: it would have taken maybe 5 min to write that scroll up thing
09:19 PM Lambda_Aurigae: yeah, so?
09:19 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I basically did...without the loop and without doing all of it.
09:19 PM Tom_L: i was just sitting here reflecting on it now that i'm caught up on my stuff
09:20 PM Tom_L: would 0 have to roll around too or just dissappear?
09:20 PM Lambda_Aurigae: he didn't say.
09:20 PM Lambda_Aurigae: only wanted to scroll up.
09:20 PM Tom_L: i guess it could do either
09:21 PM Tom_L: still don't understand why it was done with classes
09:22 PM Tom_L: you're in Ne right?
09:22 PM Tom_L: how's the weather up there?
09:23 PM Lambda_Aurigae: IA
09:23 PM Lambda_Aurigae: Iowa
09:24 PM Lambda_Aurigae: east of NE
09:24 PM Tom_L: looks like NE is getting the snow western Ks has
09:24 PM Lambda_Aurigae: yup.
09:24 PM Lambda_Aurigae: only rain here.
09:24 PM Tom_L: i'm originally from Council Bluffs
09:26 PM Lambda_Aurigae: won't hold that against you.
09:26 PM Tom_L: wasn't there long
09:26 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I'm originally from florida.
09:26 PM Lambda_Aurigae: wifey is from here.
09:27 PM Lambda_Aurigae: grew up 1/8 mile from where we live now.
09:27 PM Tom_L: too close?
09:27 PM Lambda_Aurigae: naa.
09:28 PM Lambda_Aurigae: the inlaws sold their place like 4 years ago and moved in with us.
09:28 PM Lambda_Aurigae: they go to tex-ass for the winters though.
09:28 PM Lambda_Aurigae: divided 1/3 of the house off and made them an apartment.
09:28 PM Lambda_Aurigae: living room, bedroom, kitchenette, bathroom.
09:29 PM Lambda_Aurigae: even put a wall up and insulated it to block the sound of their flippin TV.
09:29 PM Lambda_Aurigae: which they watch at 2am!
09:29 PM Lambda_Aurigae: they have a bad habit of falling asleep with the tv on and letting it run all night.
09:29 PM Lambda_Aurigae: which bugs the hell out of me.
09:30 PM Tom_L: a good friend can't sleep without one on
09:30 PM Tom_L: set up a timer for em, most sets have them now
09:30 PM Lambda_Aurigae: they can barely figure out how to change channels.
09:31 PM Lambda_Aurigae: once a week the wife has to go show them how to use the roku to watch hulu shows.
09:43 PM rue_shop3: gee folks, sorry I'v not been paying much attention to irc latley
09:43 PM Lambda_Aurigae: no worries.
09:44 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I discouraged someone like I was supposed to.
09:56 PM Casper: Lambda_Aurigae: 'discouraged' is a bit weak don't you think?
10:01 PM Lambda_Aurigae: naa.
10:55 PM Emil: Casper: näh