#avr Logs
Apr 14 2017
#avr Calendar
12:13 AM daey_ is now known as daey
07:35 AM specing: last time I checked vinculum was quite expensive
07:35 AM specing: like in cortex-a8 area
07:45 AM NoHitWonder: its under 4e
07:46 AM NoHitWonder: 3e if you buy many
08:56 AM skz81: http://www.picotcp.com/about/ <= this was posted on #esp-open-rtos, this stuff claims to run on 8 bits AVRs, so it may interest someone
09:04 AM JanC_ is now known as JanC
01:29 PM julius: hi
01:30 PM NoHitWonder: hello
01:30 PM xentrac: hi. was just discussing on another channel the relative benefits and drawbacks of Arduino vs. Pi for a friend who's even more novice than I am
01:31 PM xentrac: he wants to turn on and off a 12V cooling fan; I think almost any transistor will probably work for that with an AVR on 5V
01:33 PM Emil: xentrac: yeah
01:34 PM Casper: depend on the fan current, yes
01:34 PM Lambda_Aurigae: well, pi is a full computer where ardweeny is a full pile of junk.
01:34 PM xentrac: haha
01:34 PM Casper: and if he can get some 3.3 or 5V compatible fet it would even be better...
01:34 PM Casper: actually
01:34 PM Casper: is it a 4 pins fan?
01:34 PM Casper: say yes!
01:34 PM xentrac: yeah, a logic-level FET would work well
01:34 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I like ripping fets out of copiers...wonderful toys.
01:35 PM xentrac: copiers?
01:35 PM Lambda_Aurigae: lots of them used for motor control in copiers.
01:35 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I fix copiers for a living.
01:35 PM Lambda_Aurigae: and printers
01:35 PM Lambda_Aurigae: that's where I get piles and piles of goodies for robotics and such.
01:35 PM Casper: if it is a 4 pin fan, the 4th is a PWM input 5V logic, just PWM@20kHz
01:35 PM xentrac: Casper: I had forgotten about those!
01:36 PM Emil: xentrac: yeah you can use "arduino" or raspi
01:36 PM Casper: I need to make a fan simulator for my board... or just get a few high speed fan with low pwm capability....
01:36 PM Lambda_Aurigae: biggest difference is rPI is smarter than people who do ardweeny programming.
01:36 PM xentrac: Lambda_Aurigae: interesting! I was just surprised because "copiers" seemed strangely specific
01:36 PM Casper: might just do that...
01:37 PM Casper: stupid board think my fan can't do more than 50% because they are slow turning 120mm
01:37 PM Lambda_Aurigae: xentrac, they have lots of goodies in them
01:37 PM Lambda_Aurigae: motors, fans, controller chips.
01:37 PM xentrac: yeah, they are kind of a bonanza
01:37 PM Lambda_Aurigae: even, if you have the skill, multiple FPGAs
01:37 PM xentrac: seriously?
01:37 PM xentrac: I had no idea
01:37 PM Lambda_Aurigae: yup.
01:38 PM xentrac: Casper: what would a "fan simulator" consist of?
01:38 PM xentrac: like, a bellows?
01:38 PM Casper: xentrac: figure out the PWM duty, and convert that to a fake rpm
01:39 PM Lambda_Aurigae: altera cyclone IV on this board in my hands right here...
01:39 PM xentrac: oh, I see. for testing
01:39 PM xentrac: incredible
01:39 PM Casper: really, PWM duty * 10000 = rpm reported :D
01:39 PM Lambda_Aurigae: Xerox Workcentre 7845 single board computer.
01:39 PM Lambda_Aurigae: main processor is some specialized powerpc
01:39 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I see also a pair of spartan 6 chips on it.
01:39 PM Casper: then the board will think that the fan can go down to 600rpm, which will allow my fan to actually go down to... 75?
01:40 PM Lambda_Aurigae: now, those are all BGA package chips.
01:40 PM Lambda_Aurigae: so desoldering and reusing them would be a royal pain in the arse.
01:40 PM xentrac: Casper: can you get the fourth wire to turn the fan all the way off?
01:40 PM xentrac: Lambda_Aurigae: I was just thinking that pretty much any electrical device less than 30 years old probably has at least half a dozen discrete FETs, although bipolar is surprisingly persistent
01:41 PM xentrac: some arsepains are probably worth it for a Cyclone IV
01:41 PM Emil: https://emil.fi/jako/linkit/fancontrol
01:42 PM Emil: If you get logic level mosfets you can use both 3.3v and 5v logic
01:43 PM Casper: xentrac: depend on the fan
01:43 PM julius: this is a nice logic level mosfet: http://www.aosmd.com/pdfs/datasheet/AOT240L.pdf
01:43 PM Casper: those I tried yes, but YMMV
01:43 PM Emil: given my link above, you can also substitute the mosfet directly with a npn transistor
01:44 PM Lambda_Aurigae: just found one board that has 8 STK672-553 motor driver modules.
01:45 PM Emil: xentrac: invite your friend here
01:45 PM xentrac: nah, Lambda_Aurigae will make fun of him
01:46 PM Lambda_Aurigae: of course I will
01:46 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I make fun of everybody.
01:46 PM Lambda_Aurigae: myself included.
01:46 PM xentrac: :)
01:46 PM Emil: Hmm, not me though 🤔
01:46 PM Emil: I suspect this will be rectified
01:46 PM Emil: though
01:47 PM xentrac: this circuit simulator thing is pretty nifty
01:47 PM Emil: It's pretty great, yeah
01:48 PM xentrac: Lambda_Aurigae: what's the -553?
01:48 PM Emil: xentrac: just google the part name, mate
01:48 PM xentrac: I did
01:49 PM Lambda_Aurigae: looks like customized hybrid motor driver chip for xerox I think.
01:49 PM xentrac: that's why I'm asking!
01:49 PM Lambda_Aurigae: trying to find the datasheet..finding everything but.
01:49 PM xentrac: me too
01:49 PM xentrac: this is a pain with a lot of modern printers; all the chips are just slightly custom
01:50 PM Lambda_Aurigae: yeah...can often find something similar and make it work.
01:51 PM Lambda_Aurigae: this is from a big honking xerox production machine.
01:52 PM Lambda_Aurigae: daym...even the manufacturer doesn't have a datasheet for it!
01:52 PM Lambda_Aurigae: hehe.
01:54 PM xentrac: oh, I'm sure they do, but maybe it's under an NDA with Xerox, or Chinese-only
01:56 PM julius: ive connected a usb -> uart adapter from my lapop to a orangepi.....i also did use a voltage divider to get the tx voltage from the adapter down to 3.3v (orange pi has 3.3v ttl) but when i start "screen /dev/ttyUBS0 115200" screen immediately exits, also gtkterm does only show a blinking cursor
01:56 PM julius: any idea what could go wrong here?
01:56 PM Emil: UBS0 does not exist
01:56 PM Emil: it is USB0
01:57 PM Emil: ;)
01:57 PM julius: true
01:57 PM Emil: also check dmesg for the actual tty
01:57 PM julius: yeah, did...thats where i got USB0 from
01:57 PM Emil: good
01:58 PM Emil: Try with sudo
01:58 PM Emil: add yourself to dialout
01:58 PM Emil: also
01:58 PM Emil: sudo adduser username dialout
01:58 PM julius: just did a root try...it clears the screen but so far no output
01:58 PM julius: yes..dialout...let me do that and then use su - julius to use it without logout
01:59 PM Emil: if sudo doesn't work then dialout doesn't work, either
01:59 PM julius: that is probaly true
01:59 PM Emil: also your orange pi will boot for a long time the first time
01:59 PM julius: im still waiting for the root output...noting yet
01:59 PM Emil: It will setup the filesystem and shit
02:00 PM julius: yeah read that somewhere...its been up for at least 5 minutes now
02:00 PM julius: lets give it anohter 15
02:00 PM Emil: Yeah it can take like 10 minutes
02:00 PM Emil: or more
02:00 PM julius: oh
02:01 PM julius: thats when you know that they fucked you with "quad core"
02:01 PM Emil: Oh the quad core works just fine
02:03 PM Emil: Hmm, I should continue my game of TIS-100
02:03 PM julius: whats that?
02:03 PM Emil: or as I like to call it, TIS517
02:04 PM Emil: julius: It's a game of assembly
02:04 PM Emil: or pseudo asm, really
02:04 PM julius: i actually found a game that you play with javascript
02:04 PM julius: screeps.com
02:05 PM Emil: Oh that one is the one that costs
02:05 PM Emil: right?
02:05 PM julius: havent checked
02:05 PM Emil: Oh that wasn't the microtransaction one
02:06 PM Emil: there are like 5 games like that
02:06 PM Emil: At least one was free, some had mts and some had a one time purchase
02:06 PM julius: ah ok
02:06 PM julius: friend of mine is looking to kill time
02:07 PM Emil: julius: TIS-100 or download OpenRA2
02:07 PM julius: let me google that
02:07 PM Emil: Oh it wasn't "openra2" (even though it is coming)
02:07 PM Emil: https://cncnet.org/red-alert-2
02:08 PM Emil: hmmmmm
02:08 PM Emil: I should make a server based 2d terminal game
02:09 PM Emil: with a simple as fuck client
02:09 PM julius: openra2 looks nice
02:09 PM * specing suggests Spring:1944, imo best FOSS strategy game
02:09 PM Emil: It's not openra2 yet
02:09 PM Emil: that's coming
02:09 PM julius: although a game where you can code would be better
02:14 PM julius: spring althoug looks good
02:16 PM julius: tis in java/python/js would be nice
02:20 PM Emil: It's pretty easy to implement
02:20 PM Emil: I should write my own avr asm simulator
02:26 PM julius: i dont wanna use asm
02:26 PM julius: as long as i can avoid it
02:37 PM Lambda_Aurigae: assembly is fun!
02:37 PM Lambda_Aurigae: and powerful!
02:37 PM Lambda_Aurigae: and a pain in the arse to debug someone else's code or your own code 3 weeks down the road
03:35 PM julius: sure it can be
03:53 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I taught myself assembly on the 6502 back in the 80s.
03:53 PM Lambda_Aurigae: on a commodore vic-20 with the vicmon cartridge
03:53 PM Lambda_Aurigae: then on the apple-2 series.
03:53 PM Lambda_Aurigae: these days, give me the instruction set summary and I can make my way through assembly on just about anything.
03:54 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I would say the most convoluted I've worked with is x86.
03:55 PM Lambda_Aurigae: it's all a matter of understanding the underlying basics of digital logic and making the instructions match up with that in your head.
03:58 PM Emil: You also need the syscall summary
03:58 PM Lambda_Aurigae: well, yeah, to get into the real fun stuff.
03:59 PM Lambda_Aurigae: a datasheet and the instructions then.
03:59 PM Lambda_Aurigae: we should make one of those program-your-robot games.
03:59 PM Lambda_Aurigae: where they fight and find their way through a maze
03:59 PM Lambda_Aurigae: only
03:59 PM Emil: whats that??
03:59 PM Lambda_Aurigae: do it with a physical maze
03:59 PM Emil: oh nice
03:59 PM Lambda_Aurigae: and real robots.
03:59 PM Emil: That would be really cool
04:00 PM Lambda_Aurigae: a couple of basic robots,,,maybe 3 or 4 models.
04:00 PM Lambda_Aurigae: with different strengths and weaknesses.
04:00 PM Lambda_Aurigae: a maze
04:00 PM Lambda_Aurigae: with powerups and pitfalls and stuff.
04:00 PM Emil: I bet everything that one of them becomes the superior and everyone metagames it
04:00 PM Lambda_Aurigae: and you program your bot to make it from end to end and combat the others.
04:01 PM Lambda_Aurigae: would be awesome to make a "kit"
04:01 PM Lambda_Aurigae: robots and maze setup kit.
04:01 PM Lambda_Aurigae: dang,,,think I just came up with my million dollar project!
04:03 PM Lambda_Aurigae: got a picture of a crate/box about 1x1x.5 meters with everything you need to get started, including 4 bots and tiles that connect together to build a maze and things to go in the maze.
04:06 PM Lambda_Aurigae: with 1 on 1, 2 on 2 team play, and even fox and hounds rules/setup.
04:06 PM Emil: would be quite nice
04:06 PM Lambda_Aurigae: incorporating "lasers" (directional LEDs) and targets on the bots and stuff.
04:07 PM Lambda_Aurigae: for competition/botwars
04:07 PM Lambda_Aurigae: but the framework would be, program your bot and turn it loose.
04:07 PM Lambda_Aurigae: not remote controlled.
04:08 PM Lambda_Aurigae: just have to come up with an api/framework/language to use for it...
04:08 PM Lambda_Aurigae: processor wise, could use an arm or pic32....not sure an avr would be quite enough for what I'm thinking of.
04:09 PM Emil: I can see myself implementing strafing right away and flanking also :D
04:09 PM Emil: Sure an avr has plenty of power
04:09 PM Lambda_Aurigae: power yes
04:10 PM Lambda_Aurigae: memory, no.
04:10 PM Emil: hmm, fair
04:10 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I'm thinking an interpreted language.
04:10 PM Emil: I'm thinking of a C api
04:10 PM Emil: where you have events and you can attach "event handlers"
04:10 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I already have a mostly functioning 70% interpreted C for pic32mx270f256b
04:10 PM Emil: Interpreted C?
04:11 PM Lambda_Aurigae: 70% C implementation that is.
04:11 PM Emil: niiiiiice
04:11 PM Lambda_Aurigae: yeah
04:11 PM Lambda_Aurigae: based off of picoc
04:11 PM Lambda_Aurigae: it's a C interpreter for a full computer.
04:11 PM Lambda_Aurigae: fairly easily extensible.
04:11 PM Lambda_Aurigae: but it's pretty huge itself.
04:11 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I've had to hack and slash stuff out of it to make it fit.
04:11 PM Lambda_Aurigae: only 256K flash on that chip.
04:11 PM Emil: Well sure you have to implement a lot of what goes into a compiler
04:12 PM Lambda_Aurigae: yup.
04:12 PM Emil: But I mean
04:12 PM Lambda_Aurigae: no preprocessor so no #define and such.
04:12 PM Emil: an m328p has enough flash to handle a lot of events
04:13 PM Emil: Maybe one could have like n bytes reserved for globals
04:13 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I'm loading the C program into ram like the old commodore computers loaded the basic program.
04:13 PM Lambda_Aurigae: and running it that way.
04:13 PM Lambda_Aurigae: with an sd card as the mass storage.
04:14 PM Lambda_Aurigae: tinkering with an external spi sram to hold the program and run from that but that slows things down.
04:14 PM Emil: Lambda_Aurigae: with an AVR?
04:14 PM Emil: or pic
04:14 PM Lambda_Aurigae: but I can then add 256K bytes of sram and have a massive program compared to the 32K I have now.
04:14 PM Lambda_Aurigae: on the pic32 I'm using.
04:14 PM Emil: I mean, moving to the bigger avr chips solves most problems
04:15 PM Emil: they have like 16k ram
04:15 PM Lambda_Aurigae: only avr I have that will even fit the program is the atmega1284p
04:15 PM Lambda_Aurigae: that has 16K ram
04:15 PM Lambda_Aurigae: but only 128K flash.
04:15 PM Lambda_Aurigae: so would have to cut the interpreter even more to fit it.
04:16 PM Lambda_Aurigae: the pic32 I am using is nice in that it's a 28pin dip package running at 50MHz/83dmips and a 32bit MIPS processor.
04:16 PM Emil: That's nice
04:16 PM Lambda_Aurigae: 256K flash, 64K sram, and can execute from sram...which I am not using yet but might.
04:17 PM Lambda_Aurigae: like, compile native modules rather than interpreted C.
04:17 PM Lambda_Aurigae: and on the fly load them into sram kinda thing.
04:17 PM Emil: >can execute from sram
04:17 PM Emil: now that's nice
04:17 PM Lambda_Aurigae: yeah...it rocks.
04:17 PM Lambda_Aurigae: some of the pic32mz chips can execute from sqi ram...
04:17 PM Lambda_Aurigae: sqi/sdi/spi interfaced sram.
04:18 PM Lambda_Aurigae: sqi being spi with 4 i/o lines...sdi having 2 i/o lines.
04:18 PM Lambda_Aurigae: but those pic32mz chips are all smt and not so good for my shaky hands these days.
04:19 PM Emil: Hmm
04:19 PM Emil: I should order some of those ATmega1284Ps
04:19 PM Lambda_Aurigae: those come in a nice 40pin dip package for those of use stuck in the 70s with solderless breadboards.
04:20 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I have a bunch of them.
04:20 PM Lambda_Aurigae: my standard chip used when I teach microcontrollers to kids.
04:20 PM Emil: Also tqfp
04:20 PM Emil: I'm like waaaat :D
04:20 PM Emil: But that DIP is even more wtf
04:20 PM Lambda_Aurigae: lots of flash and ram to play with and nice simple avr interface for programming and all.
04:21 PM Lambda_Aurigae: wish it came in a 64pin dip like the old 68000 chips did!
04:21 PM Lambda_Aurigae: would be nice if they made at least one avr that could execute from external sram or from sram period.
04:21 PM Emil: Some of the older ones could
04:22 PM Emil: 644 or something had external ram option
04:22 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I've only ever seen one that did that.
04:22 PM Lambda_Aurigae: yes
04:22 PM Lambda_Aurigae: but that's for data only
04:22 PM Lambda_Aurigae: not for program
04:22 PM Emil: aww
04:22 PM Emil: Data's still nice, though
04:22 PM Lambda_Aurigae: atmega8515 came in 40pin dip and had external data memory interface
04:22 PM Lambda_Aurigae: same with atmega128 and some of the other big ones.
04:23 PM Lambda_Aurigae: hell, back in my hayday of trying everything I could, I did a PATA harddrive interface with an atmega32
04:24 PM Lambda_Aurigae: could send and receive data over the UART...commands and data...to read and write to a standard 3.5 inch 80GB harddrive.
04:24 PM Lambda_Aurigae: and I did it on a solderless breadboard!
04:25 PM Lambda_Aurigae: then transferred it to a homemade pcb.
04:25 PM Lambda_Aurigae: made a data logger for a home made security system.
04:25 PM Emil: https://www.digikey.fi/products/en/integrated-circuits-ics/embedded-microcontrollers/685?k=&pkeyword=&pv7=2&pv7=17&FV=ffec5771%2C402ca3%2C403074%2C2700064%2C2700072%2C270004a%2C270004b%2C270004c%2C7e8000e%2C142c09f7%2C142c1ba5%2C1f140000%2Cffe002ad&mnonly=0&newproducts=0&ColumnSort=1000011&page=1&stock=1&quantity=0&ptm=0&fid=0&pageSize=25
04:25 PM Lambda_Aurigae: it ran for 5 years that I know of.
04:26 PM Emil: Now that's a nice project :D
04:26 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I made the security system
04:26 PM Lambda_Aurigae: needed a data logger.
04:26 PM Lambda_Aurigae: tracked coming and going in an office.
04:27 PM Lambda_Aurigae: we had long range rfid readers at the doors so it could track the badges as they passed through doors...some the rfid tag was required for passthrough and some just had passive readers.
04:27 PM Emil: Can you notice what the heck is different between those 6 products?
04:28 PM Lambda_Aurigae: yeah.
04:28 PM Lambda_Aurigae: p vs non p for starters
04:28 PM Lambda_Aurigae: different temp ranges
04:28 PM Emil: Oh yeah picopower
04:28 PM Emil: that explains it
04:29 PM Emil: But no different temp ranges
04:29 PM Emil: and that is what is throwing me off
04:29 PM Lambda_Aurigae: possibly speed rating too
04:29 PM Emil: No
04:29 PM Emil: Same speed rating, too
04:29 PM Lambda_Aurigae: there is a document that explains the suffixes
04:29 PM Lambda_Aurigae: gotta find it.
04:32 PM Lambda_Aurigae: AU and MU are different packages.
04:35 PM Lambda_Aurigae: AUR or MUR means it's on a reel instead of individual packaged.
04:35 PM Lambda_Aurigae: reel/tape
04:37 PM Lambda_Aurigae: so there ya go.
04:38 PM Emil: Yeah
04:38 PM Emil: Thanks :D
04:38 PM Lambda_Aurigae: AU = tqfn packed in a tray
04:38 PM Lambda_Aurigae: AUR = tqfn on a tape reel.
04:39 PM Lambda_Aurigae: makes perfect sense now that I've found 5 websites to explain it.
04:39 PM Lambda_Aurigae: hehe
04:39 PM Emil: Dat cost though, 5,1€/chip, not including vat nor import fees :D
04:39 PM Lambda_Aurigae: yeah, they are pricy
04:39 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I got atmel to donate a bunch to me for teaching kids how to use avr chips.
04:39 PM Lambda_Aurigae: bought a few over they years too.
04:40 PM Emil: Ooh that's nice
04:40 PM Emil: I should do that, too
04:40 PM Emil: since that's what I also do :D
04:40 PM Emil: Well, I teach uni students, but they are like kids sooooo
04:40 PM Lambda_Aurigae: kids come to my workshop in the summer and they walk away with a laptop, a couple of AVRs, a programmer, solderless breadboard, wires, resistors, LEDs, and knowledge.
04:41 PM Emil: nice
04:41 PM Emil: I wish I had that
04:41 PM Lambda_Aurigae: and it costs them nothing and me almost nothing as most of it is donated or acquired from scrap.
04:41 PM Lambda_Aurigae: the laptops are all donated by my customers.
04:41 PM Emil: What age?
04:41 PM Emil: Do you know if they use that knowledge?
04:41 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I currently have 15 laptops in the i3 category
04:41 PM Lambda_Aurigae: no clue if they do.
04:42 PM Lambda_Aurigae: some come back a second year...a couple have come back a 3rd year.
04:42 PM Lambda_Aurigae: this year I will have one 3rd year and so far 5 1st years
04:42 PM Emil: That's nice : )
04:42 PM Emil: What age?
04:42 PM Lambda_Aurigae: 12 to 18
04:42 PM Lambda_Aurigae: 6th to 12th grade.
04:43 PM Emil: Sounds nice
04:43 PM Lambda_Aurigae: and it's usually an even mix of male to female.
04:43 PM Lambda_Aurigae: this year I have 4 girls who are besties.
04:43 PM Lambda_Aurigae: all new.
04:43 PM Emil: Haha
04:44 PM Lambda_Aurigae: this should be a fun time.
04:44 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I don't allow cellphones while we are working.
04:44 PM Emil: That's good
04:44 PM Lambda_Aurigae: if you come to play with me you will dang well be here to play with me and not with your facebook friends dangit!
04:45 PM Lambda_Aurigae: to the point that I will turn on my rf noise generator and kill their phone connections.
04:45 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I've done it twice now in the last 5 years.
04:45 PM Lambda_Aurigae: and 3 times at family gettogethers.
04:45 PM * Emil sniffes around
04:45 PM Lambda_Aurigae: probably illegal as hell
04:45 PM Lambda_Aurigae: but,
04:45 PM Lambda_Aurigae: fuckit.
04:45 PM Emil: Is that the FCC I'm hearing
04:45 PM Emil: ; D
04:46 PM Lambda_Aurigae: my building is metal wall covered and cell service inside sucks a.nyhow...the noise doesn't extend far enough to mess with anything but inside the building really
04:46 PM Lambda_Aurigae: fcc can fucking cram it
04:46 PM Emil: Oh I don't have a problem with it
04:46 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I have a hardline phone in the building so no problems with emergency stuff.
04:46 PM Emil: But I do know that if they ever care about that, it is illegal af
04:47 PM Lambda_Aurigae: yup.
04:47 PM Emil: Collecting the phones to a far away corner doesn't help?
04:49 PM Lambda_Aurigae: never bothered.
04:49 PM Emil: Oh
04:49 PM Lambda_Aurigae: flip of a switch and text goes away.
04:49 PM Emil: I would find that a lot easier :D
04:49 PM Lambda_Aurigae: as does facebook
04:49 PM Emil: lol
04:49 PM Emil: Well, that does build self control
04:49 PM Lambda_Aurigae: and, the wifi in the building has facebook and twitter and half a dozen other sites blocked at the firewall.
04:49 PM Lambda_Aurigae: so their laptops don't help them at all...
04:49 PM Emil: Even though the phone is burning in the pocket
04:49 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I wipe the laptops and put linux on them too.
04:50 PM Emil: hehe
04:50 PM Lambda_Aurigae: with everything they need to do what they are there to learn to do.
04:50 PM Emil: issue a grand challenge for them to break your castle
04:50 PM Emil: on their free time
04:50 PM Lambda_Aurigae: it's all volunteer, nobody is forced to be there
04:50 PM Emil: Sure
04:50 PM Lambda_Aurigae: but if they are going to take up my time it won't be with facebook and twitter and texting.
04:50 PM Emil: no one is forced to be at school either but people still find it hard to concentrate ;)
04:51 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I make it fun
04:51 PM Lambda_Aurigae: we do fun projects
04:51 PM Emil: That's what all the profs/teachers say about their lectures, too! ;D
04:51 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I teach them from the ground up, basic electronics,,,this is a battery, this is a wire, etc.
04:51 PM Emil: I really like that
04:51 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I use the same teaching aids I had as a kid too.. Forrest M. Mims III
04:52 PM Lambda_Aurigae: Getting Started in Electronics
04:52 PM Lambda_Aurigae: plus K&R The C Programming Language
04:52 PM Lambda_Aurigae: yeah, it's not current, not modern, but it works.
04:53 PM Lambda_Aurigae: and is stuff they will never see in school unless they go to university and get a good professor.
04:53 PM Emil: Hmm
04:54 PM Emil: I don't agree with using K&R
04:54 PM Emil: It's really old fashioned
04:54 PM Emil: I would use some other material there
04:54 PM Lambda_Aurigae: C is C is C
04:55 PM Lambda_Aurigae: in what I'm teaching them, it fits, it works.
04:55 PM Emil: that's not really true, though
04:55 PM Lambda_Aurigae: it's what I learned C with.
04:55 PM Emil: the K&R style is quite cancerous
04:55 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I figure, the guys who wrote the programming language should know how to write about it.
04:55 PM Lambda_Aurigae: well, one guy anyhow.
04:55 PM Emil: int foo(a, p) int a; char *p;
04:55 PM Emil: { return 0;
04:55 PM Emil: }
04:56 PM Emil: Lambda_Aurigae: that's quite the hyperbole ;)
04:56 PM Lambda_Aurigae: could go int foo(int a, char *p)
04:56 PM Emil: yes but that is not K&R style
04:56 PM Lambda_Aurigae: style varies.
04:56 PM Emil: That's ANSI style
04:56 PM Lambda_Aurigae: whatever works.
04:57 PM Lambda_Aurigae: the pdf I have might be the more modernized ansi versino
04:57 PM Lambda_Aurigae: the physical I have is signed by Ritchie himself.
04:57 PM Emil: If you do Linux programming here are the materials from a course I took
04:57 PM Emil: https://emil.fi/jako/dokumentit/sovohj/
04:58 PM Lambda_Aurigae: was given to me in 1989 by the lead engineer on the GPS/NDS project from Sandia National Labs.
04:58 PM Emil: But now I have to go outside and listen to the frozen lake
04:58 PM Emil: and ice
04:58 PM Emil: It's wonderful
04:58 PM Lambda_Aurigae: fun fun.
04:58 PM Lambda_Aurigae: not enough ice and cold here this winter.
04:58 PM Emil: if onl it wasn't so damn dark and scary
04:59 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I want to get up to the frozen north sometime soon.
04:59 PM Emil: Bears/wolves can be around
04:59 PM Lambda_Aurigae: dark and scary is half the fun!
04:59 PM Lambda_Aurigae: air horn.
04:59 PM Emil: Lambda_Aurigae: not when there can be animals with you :D
04:59 PM Lambda_Aurigae: one of those pocket air horns works well.
04:59 PM Lambda_Aurigae: at least in this country it does.
04:59 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I was raised in the woods.
04:59 PM Lambda_Aurigae: my father was a USAF survival instructor.
04:59 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I was hunting by the age of 6.
05:00 PM Emil: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCJBOCjQXjA
05:00 PM Lambda_Aurigae: wild animals don't bother me
05:00 PM Emil: It doesn't quite capture the sounds that well
05:00 PM Lambda_Aurigae: except maybe wolverines.
05:00 PM Emil: and after my battery ran out there were a lot more sounds
05:00 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I thrive in the woods, specially after dark.
05:00 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I don't scare easily though.
05:01 PM Emil: Good night
05:02 PM Lambda_Aurigae: have fun!
05:06 PM Lambda_Aurigae: aaand, I think I'm out for a while...time to head home.
05:06 PM Lambda_Aurigae: this copier is all uppydated!
05:11 PM Emil: nice
05:11 PM Emil: and still so god damn scary
05:12 PM Lambda_Aurigae: chaos, panic, disorder!
05:12 PM Lambda_Aurigae: My job here is done!
05:12 PM Emil: My dad was like "yeah yeah when there were wolves on the opposite side of the lake howling I went outside with a bow and arrows
05:12 PM Emil: alone
05:13 PM Emil: Then I lectured him on how stupid that is
05:13 PM Emil: and now he's all hurt
05:13 PM Emil: I just cant fucking understand how people like him make decisions :D
06:00 PM julius: yeah, the pi finnaly started accepting its uart
06:01 PM julius: Lambda_Aurigae: chaos, panic, disorder - my job here is done....that would be a nice tshirt slogan :)
06:02 PM Lambda_Aurigae: hehe..yeah.
06:02 PM julius: you still awake?
06:02 PM Lambda_Aurigae: it's my standard parting words when installing a new copier for someone.
06:02 PM Lambda_Aurigae: nope.
06:02 PM Lambda_Aurigae: 5:32pm here...less than 3 hours till bedtime.
06:02 PM julius: ah ok
06:02 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I was at work
06:03 PM julius: so youre into copiers
06:03 PM Lambda_Aurigae: chatting while updating a production level copier software.
06:03 PM Lambda_Aurigae: well, I am a Xerox Analyst/Tech
06:03 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I work for a Xerox subsidiary.
06:03 PM julius: have you ever had a printer that prints like 8cm x 4m paper?
06:03 PM julius: like the ones in the supermarket?
06:04 PM Lambda_Aurigae: that size specifically, no.
06:04 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I have worked on that kind of printer, however, yes.
06:04 PM julius: i just guessed the size
06:04 PM Lambda_Aurigae: somewhere in my pile of stuff I probably have one or three like that I'm sure.
06:04 PM Lambda_Aurigae: receipt printers.
06:04 PM julius: yeah like that
06:04 PM Lambda_Aurigae: impact matrix and thermal
06:05 PM Lambda_Aurigae: most modern ones are thermal from what I see.
06:05 PM julius: ok its kinda not that legal, i was thinking about a parking ticket printer
06:05 PM Lambda_Aurigae: ok.
06:05 PM julius: dont know how thats solved in your country but here you have to buy a ticket everywhere you park
06:05 PM Lambda_Aurigae: cedar rapids iowa has parking meter systems that print receipts for you.
06:06 PM Lambda_Aurigae: you park and get your space number
06:06 PM Lambda_Aurigae: then go to the kiosk on the corner
06:06 PM Lambda_Aurigae: put in your spot number, put in money or credit card, get a receipt and your "meter" time starts.
06:06 PM Lambda_Aurigae: your receipt tells your expiration time.
06:06 PM julius: yeah like that
06:07 PM Lambda_Aurigae: some places have credit card readers right on the individual spot meters too.
06:07 PM Lambda_Aurigae: those are usually thermal printers most likely unless you hear it making lots of noise when it prints.
06:07 PM Lambda_Aurigae: so, what's your question on them?
06:07 PM julius: the last one i saw here in germany had a piece of paper behind the pastic thats in front of the lcd that read; im out of order
06:08 PM julius: how difficult is it to create your own numbers/letters for a printer
06:08 PM Lambda_Aurigae: all depends on the printer
06:08 PM Lambda_Aurigae: how it's interfaced
06:09 PM Lambda_Aurigae: often the printer mech is a simple graphic type interface and there's a small microcontroller/processor that handles text to print graphic conversion.
06:09 PM Lambda_Aurigae: depends on the device and how deep you want to tap into the device.
06:10 PM Lambda_Aurigae: simple font creation is not difficult.
06:10 PM Lambda_Aurigae: much like doing it for a graphic display even.
06:10 PM Lambda_Aurigae: look at Jartza's octapentaveega code.
06:10 PM julius: so i need to get my hands on a printer with the right paper size first
06:10 PM julius: ah ok
06:10 PM Lambda_Aurigae: he has a couple of fonts he can display
06:10 PM Lambda_Aurigae: done on an attiny85.
06:11 PM Lambda_Aurigae: you wanting to print long thin banners?
06:11 PM julius: no
06:12 PM julius: a-z, 0-9 and so on
06:12 PM julius: i dont think theres a logo on them
06:12 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I've done custom printing on small receipt printers but that's years ago.
06:12 PM Lambda_Aurigae: driving it from a c-64 actually.
06:13 PM julius: ah i remmebe the octapentavega thingie...someone here worked on that
06:13 PM Lambda_Aurigae: Jartza did
06:13 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I have one of them here he sent me
06:13 PM Lambda_Aurigae: nice little device.
06:13 PM julius: nice
06:13 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I've built several myself, on solderless breadboard and on perfboard.
06:13 PM Lambda_Aurigae: most of mine have been the single chip mono versions though.
06:14 PM Lambda_Aurigae: how one would send such out to a printer all depends on the printer, its interface, how smart or dumb it is...
06:14 PM Lambda_Aurigae: lots of variables.
06:15 PM Lambda_Aurigae: you can buy ones that are documented
06:15 PM Lambda_Aurigae: or hack one from some piece of equipment.
06:16 PM julius: hacking a printer
06:16 PM julius: sounds interresting
06:16 PM Lambda_Aurigae: it helps to know how things work.
06:16 PM Lambda_Aurigae: but, that's all part of hacking...learning.
06:17 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I've done several printer hacks.
06:17 PM Lambda_Aurigae: back in the early days, made my own receipt printer hooked to a C64
06:18 PM Lambda_Aurigae: more recently, modified an HP laserjet 8150 to print direct to copper.
06:18 PM Lambda_Aurigae: ok..3 printers altogether but ended up with one that actually did the job
06:18 PM julius: copper, like in metal?
06:18 PM Lambda_Aurigae: no,
06:18 PM Lambda_Aurigae: copper as in copper clad pcb
06:19 PM Lambda_Aurigae: rather than toner transfer, printing toner straight to the pcb material.
06:19 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I keep blowing out high voltage power supplies though.
06:20 PM julius: ah ok
06:20 PM julius: good to know that even experience guys like you kill chips ;)
06:20 PM julius: experienced
06:22 PM julius: http://regionalheute.de/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Parkschein-950x713.jpg <- thats basically the size i need
06:22 PM julius: picture shows two that were ejected by accident
06:23 PM Lambda_Aurigae: kinda looks like a zebra printer output.
06:23 PM julius: let me google that
06:23 PM Lambda_Aurigae: it's a brand of printer that prints on thermal paper or uses a thermal ribbon
06:25 PM Lambda_Aurigae: there are many brands of printers that will print on such paper.
06:25 PM Lambda_Aurigae: some print on little sheets, some print on roll and cut the paper or have a tear off blade.
06:25 PM julius: google shows lots of them
06:26 PM Lambda_Aurigae: each type has its quirks and nice bits.
06:26 PM julius: looks like they print all kind of sizes, will measure my paper size tomorrow
06:26 PM Lambda_Aurigae: actual paper handling is the biggest problem with anything that prints on paper.
06:26 PM julius: you mean like the paper gets stuck in the machine?
06:27 PM Lambda_Aurigae: stuck, pulls sideways, whatever.
06:27 PM Lambda_Aurigae: handling of the paper.
06:27 PM julius: yeah had that
06:27 PM julius: dont like printers
06:27 PM Lambda_Aurigae: we have more service calls on paper path and paper handling issues than anything else.
06:28 PM julius: ah
06:28 PM Lambda_Aurigae: real world interface
06:28 PM julius: good to know
06:28 PM julius: thats a nice name
06:29 PM Lambda_Aurigae: paper is often coated in a light powder or has paper dust which builds up on the feed rollers.
06:29 PM Lambda_Aurigae: the pickup and feed rollers wear out and start slipping
06:30 PM Lambda_Aurigae: the separation roller or pad wears out and starts slipping causing multiple sheets to be pulled through.
06:30 PM Lambda_Aurigae: you have that in the paper trays and in the docfeeder on top.
06:31 PM Lambda_Aurigae: along the paper path there are feed rollers all the way...those wear out or get flat spots or cracks...the rubber dries out over time or gets dusty/dirty
06:31 PM julius: i see, so printers may like me after all
06:31 PM Lambda_Aurigae: just like the tires on a car...they have to be kept aligned and have to have decent tread.
06:31 PM julius: could be just that they were dying anyway
06:32 PM Lambda_Aurigae: or things slip and don't go straight or whatever.
06:32 PM Lambda_Aurigae: second most common is image quality issues.
06:32 PM Lambda_Aurigae: which is a whole other can of wormy beans.
06:33 PM julius: sometimes parkin tickets look funny..but most of the time the quality is 90%+
06:33 PM Lambda_Aurigae: on those you posted I see a flaw.
06:33 PM Lambda_Aurigae: there's a void through them.
06:33 PM julius: ok 90% was maybe to high
06:34 PM Lambda_Aurigae: well, that looks like a 98% quality there.
06:34 PM julius: they have all kinds of flaws just like regular paper from regular printers
06:34 PM Lambda_Aurigae: on the expiry time, about 1/3 the way from the bottom of the large numbers, there's a void line.
06:34 PM Lambda_Aurigae: either dirty printhead or dead pixel in the printhead.
06:35 PM julius: true
06:35 PM julius: you should see the lcd displays that show you how much money you inserted
06:35 PM Lambda_Aurigae: that looks like a 75dpi thermal printer.
06:35 PM julius: pixels in there die like flies
06:35 PM Lambda_Aurigae: yeah, those go fast.
06:35 PM Lambda_Aurigae: cheap crap.
06:36 PM julius: worst case scenario would be that they are powered at night too...never checked
06:36 PM Lambda_Aurigae: the most common issue with that printhead/void issue is dirty buildup.
06:36 PM Lambda_Aurigae: cleaning cloth/paper towel with a little alcohol, wipe it down, all better.
06:37 PM Lambda_Aurigae: the digital parking meter kiosks here have no display until you press a button.
06:37 PM Lambda_Aurigae: shuts down quickly after you pay and get your ticket.
06:38 PM julius: got a old laser printer at home, it was a gift, it says that all the color ink is 50%+ yet when printing red it prints like a yellow....could it help to shake the "toner" (is that the right word?)
06:38 PM Lambda_Aurigae: yanno, I didn't even notice the language on those tickets till the third time I looked at them.
06:39 PM Lambda_Aurigae: depends on the printer.
06:39 PM Lambda_Aurigae: but you probably have a drum or developer issue.
06:39 PM julius: i mostly do black so i can life with that
06:39 PM Lambda_Aurigae: make a document with cyan, magenta, yellow, and black blocks and print that.
06:40 PM Lambda_Aurigae: if your red prints yellow then magenta is probably the problem.
06:40 PM julius: sure, when im back in the apartment
06:40 PM julius: let me write that down
06:40 PM Lambda_Aurigae: it uses 4 colors to make all the rest
06:40 PM Lambda_Aurigae: cyan, magenta, yellow, black.
06:40 PM julius: yes
06:41 PM Lambda_Aurigae: mixes those together on the paper in various patterns to make many more colors.
06:41 PM patrakov: Hi. I am from NobleProg Ltd, and a new course outline has been submitted to us: https://hr.nobleprog.com/node/201789 . Can anyone validate here that the set of topics makes sense and that 14 hours is indeed something close to what's required for the course?
06:41 PM Lambda_Aurigae: red is magenta and yellow.
06:42 PM Lambda_Aurigae: patrakov, depends on what you are trying to accomplish with that course.
06:42 PM Lambda_Aurigae: if your students don't have a background in assembly programming, 14 hours would barely be enough to teach that topic alone.
06:43 PM julius: and they are gonna hate you afterwards ;)
06:43 PM julius: Lambda_Aurigae: thanks for the input, gonna go watch a movie than bedtime...its 1:13 here
06:43 PM patrakov: We can't really know what the customer wants, because the outline will remain visible and searchable, and the next customer (with completely different requirements) may say 'we want this"
06:43 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I take 12-18 year olds from "this is a battery, this is a wire" to building and programming avr based robots in about 40 hours total
06:44 PM Lambda_Aurigae: still, your course outline misses things
06:44 PM Lambda_Aurigae: difference between tiny, mega, xmega
06:44 PM patrakov: We have mostly corporate clients who want to make sure that their new employees have some knowledge
06:45 PM Lambda_Aurigae: difference between usi and usart
06:45 PM patrakov: tiny/mega/xmega = good point
06:45 PM Lambda_Aurigae: how detailed is your timer section?
06:46 PM Lambda_Aurigae: that's the most complex part of the avr in my opinion.
06:46 PM patrakov: I don't know, it's not my course
06:46 PM Lambda_Aurigae: pwm, counting, timing,
06:46 PM Lambda_Aurigae: all part of timers.
06:46 PM Lambda_Aurigae: the differences in the timers between the different series chips..tiny/mega/xmega
06:46 PM Lambda_Aurigae: xmega is a whole other world really.
06:46 PM Lambda_Aurigae: tiny and mega are very similar...xmega is a major step up the ladder.
06:46 PM enhering: When was xmega launched?
06:47 PM Lambda_Aurigae: enhering, 8 or 10 years ago?
06:47 PM patrakov: yeah, already found that simavr doesn't emulate it
06:48 PM Lambda_Aurigae: yup.
06:48 PM Lambda_Aurigae: also, different programming interfaces.
06:48 PM Lambda_Aurigae: ISP, TPI, PDI, and the new ones.
06:49 PM Lambda_Aurigae: there are two newer ones.
06:49 PM Lambda_Aurigae: don't remember the names
06:49 PM Lambda_Aurigae: nothing mentioned about jtag
06:49 PM Lambda_Aurigae: or debugwire
06:50 PM Lambda_Aurigae: debugwire is one of the new programming interfaces too.
06:50 PM Lambda_Aurigae: also there's hvsp and hvpp
06:50 PM Lambda_Aurigae: why and when to use.
06:50 PM Lambda_Aurigae: nothing in there mentions the most common beginner issue...fuses.
06:50 PM patrakov: Should I contact the author about the feedback above, or reject the outline?
06:51 PM Lambda_Aurigae: your call entirely there.
06:51 PM patrakov: Thanks!
06:51 PM Lambda_Aurigae: don't see bootloader mentioned.
06:51 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I can go on.
06:51 PM Lambda_Aurigae: hehe
06:51 PM patrakov: OK, rejecting.
06:52 PM Lambda_Aurigae: brownout
06:52 PM Lambda_Aurigae: watchdog
06:52 PM Lambda_Aurigae: power saving modes
06:52 PM Lambda_Aurigae: ADC
06:52 PM Lambda_Aurigae: DAC
06:53 PM Lambda_Aurigae: comparator
06:53 PM * Lambda_Aurigae looks back at the wikipedia page
06:53 PM Lambda_Aurigae: daym...they haven't updated it since microchip bought atmel and started putting out hybrid tiny chips.
06:53 PM patrakov: Well, in this case I'd say that enumerating all peripherals goes against the words "8-bit Atmel AVR enhanced RISC microcontrollers as an example" in the overview section.
06:55 PM Lambda_Aurigae: doing xmega and mega/tiny in one 14 hour course is,,,in my opinion,,,way too short a time.
06:55 PM Lambda_Aurigae: xmega really should be a separate course as it really is a different line based roughly on the mega series.
06:55 PM patrakov: it does not need to be comprehensive, but should be enough to give the students enough motivation to learn the rest themselves, and server as a basis for learning other microcontroller families
06:56 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I teach microcontrollers to kids as a hobby and entry from knowing nothing to writing their own robot controller programs for simple maze solving takes at least 20 hours.
06:56 PM Lambda_Aurigae: and we don't use nearly half the capabilities of the chips.
06:57 PM Lambda_Aurigae: basic electronics with digital logic takes about 20 hours.
06:58 PM Lambda_Aurigae: if your students know electronics and/or programming to start, it helps...
06:59 PM Lambda_Aurigae: if they know how to read a datasheet it helps...which should be a course of its own and I spend a good day teaching.
07:00 PM Lambda_Aurigae: aahh..you do have the programming interfaces up there.
07:00 PM Lambda_Aurigae: a whole section on fuses I would recommend.
07:00 PM Lambda_Aurigae: it's a simple topic that can cause major problems.
07:02 PM patrakov: Thanks again for the feedback.
07:10 PM patrakov: Anyway, you are welcome to register at https://hr.nobleprog.com/ and create your own outline, and get money from teaching it to corporate customers that are interested
07:11 PM Lambda_Aurigae: no thanks.
07:11 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I teach kids
07:12 PM Lambda_Aurigae: and I do it for the fun of it, seeing their eyes light up when they discover something for themselves, and things like that.
07:12 PM patrakov: I see
07:12 PM Lambda_Aurigae: and kids aren't humans
07:12 PM Lambda_Aurigae: and I don't deal well with humans.
07:13 PM Lambda_Aurigae: also, I doubt your clients would want to come hang out in my workshop to learn.
07:14 PM patrakov: True, we expect the trainer to travel to the customer
07:15 PM Lambda_Aurigae: not happening
07:15 PM patrakov: :)
07:15 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I have a full time job working for Xerox
07:17 PM Lambda_Aurigae: hope to be a field analyst supervisor in 2 to 4 years.
09:37 PM rue_house: drat, the printer I need the inside information on is an HP
09:37 PM Lambda_Aurigae: what HP?
09:37 PM Lambda_Aurigae: what info?
09:38 PM rue_house: M525 I think
09:38 PM rue_house: I need to know if there are linux drivers for the usb touchscreen
09:38 PM rue_house: the touch part of it does, athe atmel ATX stuff
09:38 PM rue_house: but I cant work out the video, it looks like its via the ACM device
09:39 PM rue_house: OR a completely untwisted, unsielded PCIE line
09:39 PM rue_house: (less likley)
09:39 PM Lambda_Aurigae: bit deeper than I go with them unfortunately.
10:22 PM enhering: IT is now 23:52 here and the f*cking neighbour is playing loud music. I wish I had a microwave gun.
10:37 PM xentrac: 19:07 < Lambda_Aurigae> assembly is fun!
10:37 PM xentrac: 19:07 < Lambda_Aurigae> and powerful!
10:38 PM xentrac: in the sense that I usually use "powerful" when speaking of languages, I would label assembly languages as usually the least powerful of all languages
10:38 PM Lambda_Aurigae: but it tells the chip to do what it does in very simple and discreet language.
10:39 PM xentrac: Lambda_Aurigae: have you worked with any really weird assemblies? AS/400, iAPX432, GreenArrays/F21/MuP21, B5000, old decimal machines?
10:40 PM Casper: assembly is still the most powerfull language, second to machine code. But the thing is: it is extremelly dependant of the human that code it...
10:41 PM Lambda_Aurigae: none of those....68000, 6502, 8008, pic, avr, x86
10:42 PM Casper: which make it a weird mix of most powerfull yet most dumb language ever
10:43 PM xentrac: it is fairly simple, yes
10:43 PM xentrac: but it takes me five times as long to do anything in it
10:44 PM xentrac: usually what I mean by "powerful" is the opposite
10:44 PM xentrac: of course there is the occasional thing I can't do in things that aren't assembly language
10:44 PM xentrac: like tail calls
10:44 PM xentrac: I agree that 68000, 6502, 8008, PIC, AVR, and x86 are all pretty much the same
10:45 PM xentrac: [and we can add amd64]
10:45 PM xentrac: although my knowledge of the first four of those is limited to reading programs in them
10:45 PM enhering: I like c++.
10:46 PM enhering: Though I'm ignorant of microcontrollers
10:46 PM enhering: And of electronics too
10:46 PM xentrac: if you'd like to try a really different assembly, try the J1a (ObAVR: the GameDuino is a graphics card for AVRs that has a J1 inside of it to generate the graphics)
10:47 PM xentrac: it's a somewhat Forth-like stack machine with a NOVA-style bitfield-decoded instruction format
10:50 PM xentrac: here's an example in the context of the Gameduino: http://excamera.com/sphinx/gameduino/coprocessor.html
10:59 PM xentrac: (also if you are happy with low-res black and white eating most of your AVR's CPU time in interrupt handlers, then you can generate NTSC with the TVout library and two resistors, as in https://github.com/kragen/ar_bytebeat)
11:02 PM xentrac: enhering: C++ definitely has its merits: http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com.ar/2007/02/next-big-language.html
11:04 PM xentrac: :(
11:05 PM xentrac: :)
11:05 PM xentrac: > And in a sense, he taught me a valuable lesson, although it's not the one he probably thought he was teaching me. I'll pass it on to you, unasked and free of charge. If you want to spare yourself a lot of angst in deciding which programming language to use, then I recommend this simple rule: Go ugly early. C++ will go out with you in a heartbeat.